 Now that is what our panel is going to discuss today in this session. This is going to be an interesting discussion on driving deep user engagement within your app. Now let's have a round of applause, ladies and gentlemen, a virtual one, rather, while we welcome our session chair for the panel discussion, Mr. Naveen Madhwan, Vice President of Growth Platforms at InMobi, helps performance marketers globally drive growth for their apps and achieve their advertising goals by leveraging the digital medium, especially mobile. Now, may I request Mr. Naveen Madhwan to take over and introduce our panelists. Very warm welcome to you, firstly. Thank you, Kiyati. Good evening to everyone. I would hope and assume it's a full room. Like it's a virtual event, so I no longer have to look out for a packed room. I know that given the panel that we have lined up for today, it's definitely going to be like an interesting one and there's going to be a lot of insights coming up in the next 30 to 45 minutes. So I will start off by calling upon the stage to join some of my panelists. First up, Sunil Suresh, who's the CMO of Make My Trip Group. Hi, everyone. Welcome, Sunil. Next, I have Pratik Mukherjee, who's the Director of Marketing at Urban Company. Hey, hi, everyone. Welcome, Pratik. Last but definitely not the least, Aishwarya Murli, Head of Marketing at Ola. Hi, everyone. Hi, Aishwarya. So I think before we jump into the topic, I think it makes sense, even though people may know us, I think it's just good to give ourselves a quick introduction in terms of what we do, our background so that hopefully it helps the audience form an understanding of the context from where we're sharing some of these insights as well. So firstly, I'll go first. As Kathy mentioned, I work at Inmobi. I've been at Inmobi for over seven years. So yeah, I think the mobile ads and the mobile ads that many of you hate seeing continuously come up on your apps, Inmobi has had some role to play in it. We do try and make sure they're interesting. In my current role, I work with app developers on the marketing and advertising side. In my seven years or so at Inmobi, I worked on monetization and advertising, and I've had the pleasure of working with many of the large brands from India and globally. So it's great to be on a panel with some of our partners and also see what insights they share and what is it that they really do to drive user engagement on their apps. So I'll request that my fellow panelists also to do a brief introduction. Aishwarya, if I could request that you go first. Yeah, hi, I'm Aishwarya. I head marketing for Ola. I've been here for about a year and a half and it's been an exciting ride so far. I worked with Folenco earlier for about three years and I looked after their growth and revenue and marketing. And before that, I was with Unilever for about 11 years and that's pretty much how I started my career. So that's just a little bit about me. Thanks, Aishwarya. Next up, Pratik, if you could go. Hey, hi, everyone. Pratik, super excited to be part of this virtual workshop, still getting used to the rules of the game when it comes to virtually interacting with a lot of you out there. Been with Urban Company now for close to two years. I am a director of marketing here. Before that, like many of us, I also started my career at Procter and Gamble, FMCG industry, spent close to seven years there. And yeah, super excited to be part of this discussion with all of you on a topic very close to my heart. I truly believe that app or our mobile phone is the core to the brand that we are building. All the companies, we make my trip to Urban Company, Hola, I think gone are the days when brand building was about top of the funnel marketing and spray and pray as a lot of us call it. It's the real estate is the brand, the product, the app that we all sort of work on. So truly passionately looking forward to this conversation. Yeah, hi, everyone. I'm Sunil. I lead marketing for the Make My Trip group. So I don't know how many of you know, we've basically got three brands in our stable. So we've got Make My Trip, we've got Go I Be Bo and we've got Red Bus. I began my career as well at Unilever. So I was there at Unilever for quite a long time. It's got to a stage where I don't like talking about how many years I've been working at each place because it gets me to a place that I don't wanna be at but I spent several years at Unilever, then moved to Dubai. So actually, again, moved to young brands at Dubai. So very different business context. Was there for quite a few years. Then joined a startup called Capulary Tech where I was there for a couple of years. Very interesting sort of state, very different context, B2B, but again, you know, consumer tech. And I've been at Make My Trip now for a little over a year now. Thanks, Anil, Aishwarya Pratik. You know, it's very interesting to see all three of you when you talk about your journeys, all of you started from like, you know, the biggest famed FNCG brands and all of your lead marketing at apps which are now become like, you know, the newest brands appealing to the masters of India. I think it just talks about how far apps have come in their own journey and relevance and significance to the Indian population at large, right? It's just great to see marketers from different backgrounds coming in and bringing this. Me personally, I have not worked at an FNCG company just to sort of set the context. Before I got into apps, I was in the world of investment banking and I just sort of happened to stumble upon this and it's been a fascinating ride for the last seven years, right? So yeah, I think the topic on hand is definitely something very close to everyone's heart. Like, you know, everyone talks about user acquisition, everyone talks about like, you know, driving marketing campaigns, how do we do brand recall? But I think in the context of mobile apps, really what matters is once you acquire a user, how do you ensure you're able to actually drive deep user engagement on your app to make sure that whatever cost that you may have put in and acquiring that user is repaid leaps and bounds with more time that they spend on your app, right? So I think I have a few questions lined up and hopefully everyone will have enough insights to sort of jump into I'm sure there is and time permitting will open up for audience question as well. So I think before we jump into like, you know, the deeper context of like the nuances and the everything that's involved in how each of you make this extremely successful engagement on your user engagement work on your app, I think let's first lay down the ground rules, right? What does user engagement and retention really mean for each of you on your apps? What are the key metrics that you really track on an ongoing basis to see whether you are actually able to attract and engage users on a continuous basis? Sunil, if I could request that you start off on this question and let Pratik and I show you our chip in later. Sure, so, you know, when we look at user engagement, retention, et cetera, there are a few macro level metrics that we look at, you know, things like repeat rate, monthly visits for user and so on and so forth. But what we figured is, you know, looking at it at a macro level can be very, very misleading. And, you know, therefore, I think the metrics that the team typically works on are metrics that are very, very segmented. So, you know, we operate on a very sort of customer segment level and we have different metrics that we look at depending on the segment characteristic, right? So you would look at, you know, for instance, things like transactions per user, visits per user, you know, what we call log depth or really the, you know, the line of businesses, how many different lines of businesses has the user actually transacted with? So you look at things like knobs per user and so on and so forth. And typically, you know, as we think about users and, you know, what we found is highly engaged users do tend to transact a lot more, typically as much as 30 to 50% more. So we do look at both of these metrics, right? So one is to look at, you know, what is the frequency of transaction? But equally, what is the frequency of visits? And, you know, obviously we walk through different sort of reasons as to why the consumer would come back to us. But yeah, so not a simple answer. I think it's not like there's a clean metric that we look at. I think there's a, you know, a lot of sort of segmentation that goes into this. Personal, I think, yeah, it is a complex world and it takes some time for all of us to get there. Yeah, I'll just add to what Sunil was building. So obviously there are standard metrics like, you know, repeat rate, a lot of time at our end goes in doing a detailed drop-off analysis for all the sessions that the users create. We spend a lot of time in understanding the entire funnel as to why a user is dropping off at a cart page, at a scheduler page, at a booking page and also then engaging with those consumer samples to figure out if there is a common issue or a common pattern at play. You know, post COVID being a great example and maybe we'll talk about it in some time. So a lot of time is spent in understanding drop-offs in a lot of detail and how to sort of then reactivate them. The other piece, probably very important at Urban Company, given the gamut of services we have, be it beauty, be it homes, we have a service like Salon at Home for Women, which is, you know, a very regular service, like a 30 to 45 day frequency service. On the other extreme, and there is a home painting which people typically would get a retouch than maybe three years, four years, if not more. So that's the gamut of services I'm talking. So very, very important for us to do a good job of cross-activation across categories. And over a period of time, the team tries to establish those baselines that what's the right second crossover category for a female consumer who, let's say, gets acquired by a Salon at Home service. Should the second service be cleaning at home? Should it be spa? Should it be something more experiential? And so on and so forth. So again, you know, not a very, it's a very, very complex combination of, I would say, science and art. You know, I come from the School of Thought where it's not just about plotting the cohorts on a piece of Excel, but also to understand the human beings who sit in those cohorts. And it's a combination of the two which helps us reactivate people and also sort of manage the entire cross-category ecosystem. Yeah, definitely. I don't think it's just about math and numbers, right? The psychology and understanding the users behind each of these cohorts matter a lot. How have you seen it working for you, Ashwarya and Tola? Like, what are the things that you observe? Yeah, so it's pretty much some of the usual suspects, but each of them have a slightly more nuanced, you know, sort of level to it, right? I think the first of engagement is, the two big ones is one, are you getting more right, more number of rights that your user is taking? So if you were taking only three rights a month, is your user starting to take four, five, six rights, right? That automatically means that you're sort of jumping up the consideration set when it's coming to sort of right here, right? That's the first one. The second is, are they taking you for longer distances? So are you a short-distance player or are you a long-distance game, right? So are you taking you for longer distances, right? Which then shows, again, that there is a deeper engagement that's coming in. That is, of course, the two basic, like we call it, the output matrices, right? But if you look at a little further into the input matrices of it, right? Ultimately, like Pratik said, there are cohorts, right? So, and these cohorts are, we can say that they are people who take five rights a month, but typically you'll also find that use cases play a big role. Typically, if people are convinced on to you, they will use you for more frequent use cases. For example, going to work, erstwhile going to work, you know, and all of that. So, and everything that requires a more predictability in their routine, so they would use you. So you automatically know that you're winning the game over there if they're using you for your frequent use cases. Whereas if you're just the choice of a Saturday night party or a coming back, you do know that you're an occasional use case, right? So then you sort of want to build your back. So we have like the heuristics can also tell you whether you're taking rights on the weekday. How frequent is it? Are you taking it on Saturdays and Sundays, which means it's a occasional use case, right? Even there is it classes, evening, morning, all of those things. So I think for us, I think it also helps for us to get people into our frequent use cases cohorts. That's really the big joy for us because that really means a stream of revenue from a single user and the right usage, right? Because they trust you, they rely on you, so they come to you in some sense. The other thing that's interesting is, like Ratik said, the funnels, right? You automatically see your funnels improving when you're sort of giving the right experience at the bottom of your funnel, which is the right experience, et cetera. You also see it improving when you're doing that, when you're giving the right messaging on the top of funnel as well, right? So things like you, they would install your app, but they may not take a ride with you. Why are they dropping off? Those kinds of things also sort of play into building the engagement piece. So I think that's a combination of what sort of we would look like. The output metrics, which are the actual rides per user and the input metrics of what kind of user, who is this person? Is he using me because he relies on me or is he using me because, oh, okay, it's just one of those off cases that I want to use kind of thing. So I think that's the way we look at it. Yeah, I think fascinating insights shared by all three of you, right? I think what's also coming out is that each line of business and use case needs to be looked at differently, like understanding each of the three businesses that you spoke about have multiple line of businesses inside your own groups, right? Like, some could be long distance travel, some could be just a hotel booking business versus personal travel, weekend versus weekday travel, occasional use case versus frequent use cases. So I'm sure each of you also, like, even in terms of your own decision making, the use of cohorts have to be built out to sort of speak to that, right? I think just moving on to, of course, like, you know, what's a very interesting topic because I think even in terms of the composition of the panel, the pandemic affected things differently for all three of you, right? So just to sort of help us understand, like what exactly changed in terms of the rules for you pre and post-pandemic, right? I think more importantly, I think some categories may have become irrelevant or like, you know, at least in the notion of people's consideration, they suddenly wiped out from becoming a daily use case to a very occasional or almost a never use case, right? I mean, I think just to like, Ola and McMutrap honestly fell into that category and it would have definitely been a challenge, right? Whereas Urban Company on the other side would have been something which people started considering more and there are many such instances. So how did each of you try and tackle this? What kind of activities did you do? What kind of metric changes did you start observing in terms of actually doing this? I'll go to the ones who had like a tougher life first before we go to the easier ones. So Aishwarya, why don't you take this first? Sure. Yeah, so I think, yeah, it was interesting, you know, I think it just got wiped out within the matter of weeks, use cases that were everyday. Sort of just sort of disappeared off the radar. And I think that's what happened on travel and transport and specifically to ride hail as well. So I think in these times, I think this was the time when we had to put your head down and actually do the right things, right? So if you start off right from the beginning, right? When there was absolute lockdown, the first thing that Ola did was partner with all the governments to ensure that essential services, sorry, emergency services we had cabs for, right? So there was still needs to go to hospitals, there was still needs to go to medical facilities and so on and so forth. So that was the first sort of agility where we sort of pivoted into sort of doing that. So we partnered with almost all of the governments to sort of be the emergency service provider, right? This worked with both patients as well as doctors because even doctors needed to get to hospitals and back. The second was the whole aspect of, you realize that you all have a luxury or we all have the luxury of working from home, but our drivers kind of don't, right? They really sort of rely on us for their livelihood. So that was when I think we sort of took that initiative and irrespective of whether it was a ride hail driver, we sort of gave them certain benefits across the board to help out during that two or three months time and we crowd saw some of the benefits as well. So we had the drive the driver fund because they are the ones who drive us. Millions of drivers are actually not working from home, right? Because they just can't work from home. So that was another initiative where we sort of got drivers back on the, because the minute they want to come back, they should be able to come back, right? That's the idea. So that was the second big thing that sort of, was agility, we realized we needed to do that for, the driver is very much a part of the brand, right? As the driver is actually the flip of the brand, you know, consumer brand and the driver brand come hand in hand in any service. And I'm sure Prateek would agree with me in urban company as well. So I think that was super critical. I think the third way in which we sort of started, we realized as and when use cases opened up and people were comfortable with going out, as a human inside, you can never tell them start going out. All you can tell them is, and this was at phase two of the pandemic, right? You cannot tell them start going out. What you can tell them is, look, if you ever decide to go out for whatever reason you are comfortable with, you know, we are here for you to provide the safest option that you have. So that's when we sort of did the safe, safe like home campaign, which is my safest ride, where it was more, and we took an, there was an operations effort, which was the biggest one. I mean, what marketing that was really quintessentially the icing on the cake, right? But the operations piece was the more rigorous one where we sort of put protective screens between cars and drivers. We had a protocol of self-authorization where, you know, if he wasn't wearing a mask, no mask, no ride. Consumer wasn't wearing a mask, no mask, no ride. Cleaning all surfaces, high-touch surfaces in the car before you got in. So what we really told our customers is, look, you may want to go out, you may not want to go out, each of you have different comfort levels, but look, if you do want to go out, here are all the precautions we're taking, right? I think that was phase two of the campaign. And more recently, I think when lockdown sort of started opening out and people are now sort of moving and things are back to normal, I think what we're telling them is, do restart responsibly. That's really the way we are sort of talking about it. So that's how we had to pivot our user engagement through the pandemic. So it's like pretty much a three or four stage process that we've seen till now. And of course, I'm sure there are more processes and more stages to come as we battle it, but this is what it is to date. Yeah, very interesting actually. I think like you said, often what we do or what marketing ends up doing is the final leg of the piece, right? But I think what's great is to remain nimble and make sure that you are talking to the consumers in the right fashion. So how about you and the Make My Trip group? Like, I'm sure a lot changed, but what were your reactions in terms of how you actually went about dealing with this? Yeah, so I think as the sort of pandemic began, one of the good things that happened is because we also sort of have close collaboration with Sea Trip that's based out of China, I think we had a lot of conversations with them and they were ahead of the curve in a sense, in terms of the pandemic and the impact and all of that. So I think we took a lot of learnings from there and we were able to actually, I think the first priority really was to go conservative and sort of conserve resources. So even before the lockdown, I think we'd got into the mode of sort of very quickly ramping down marketing. So we sort of, whatever we could sort of cut back, I think we cut back and got into this conserve mode. Lockdown came and effectively, I think business went from whatever it was to zero overnight given that no travel was possible. Early on, while we did sort of partner with governments and we had a lot of sort of quarantine hotels and things that we partnered with, we had programs we called stays for saviors and so on and so forth. From a consumer standpoint, I think that early phase was really about empathy. So all our communication was really about stay indoors and there were some interesting campaigns we ran on multiple brands. And at that time we thought through and said, what should our overall approach be? And end of the day, it's really about, how do you stay relevant to the consumer? And we sort of put together this multi-phase approach. We said, there's no predicting how this pandemic is gonna play out, but what we do know is, there will be stages of the pandemic, right? So there will be sort of this early phase where no travel's possible and there are a lot of customer service issues. And for us, that was a huge priority because obviously everybody's travel plans got disrupted. There were lots of cancellations and people wanting refunds and so on and so forth. So that was sort of the early phase. We then said, once the lockdown lifts, whenever that may be, how do you sort of support people who have essential travel? Because clearly, it's not like the pandemic is gonna disappear, but some people are going to want to travel. At that time, safety is gonna be super important. So again, we did a lot of work sort of thinking through, how do we reassure customers on safety? And there was this program called MySafety and GoSafe, et cetera, that we launched, which is really reassuring customers on safe practices and looking at sort of the broader ecosystem because end of the day, for us, the experience is really through all of our partners. So that was sort of the next phase. At this point, we also did a cross-industry, sort of marketing initiative. It was really the safety pledge where we had over 30 CEOs of different travel companies coming together and reassuring customers that we do everything to stay safe and so on and so forth. And then from there on, I think it's really about gradual opening up. I think the good thing is that over the past few months, the momentum has been building up and we have been sort of cautiously executing campaigns. So that's from a marketing campaign perspective. I think coming back to your original question on engagement and how has that changed? So if I look at what we used to do earlier and we talked about it, right, which was looking at repeat rate and so on and so forth, I think right now we are looking at it quite differently. So one of the things we did is we said, let's freeze as of end of March, right? Let's freeze our customer base and let's freeze the segments and the behavior and everything as of end of March because people are obviously going to behave extremely differently through this period. And right now we're saying, okay, now we've got this end-march base. How do you do two things, right? The first thing is how do you reactivate this base? And that sort of is goal number one, where you're looking at the different sort of segments and setting goals of saying, how do you reactivate in terms of driving unique visitors and then how do you convert those unique visits into transactions? The second goal is once you sort of reactivated this cohort, how do you then drive repeat? And sort of redefine what those metrics of repeat should look like. And that's where I think a lot of the, as they say, the devil is in the details because just to give you an example, if you look at the macro numbers, right? You look at the macro repeat rate numbers, we actually find that the repeat rate numbers that we had pre-pandemic are very similar to what we have today. But when you actually dive deeper, you realize that the reason it's like that is because of the profile of travelers. So effectively what's happened is people who were extremely frequent travelers pre-pandemic are traveling at maybe one-third the frequency, but because they were so frequent earlier at an average level, it actually looks very, very similar, pre-enforced. So, just to illustrate the importance of going into details as you're sort of working through some of this. No, that's a very great insight, Sunil. I think obviously I think details and crunching down to the most important numbers, going down to see where it matters is actually quite interesting. And I think what you said in terms of just looking at a high level metric and being happy with it, what's going down and analyzing what lies behind it is actually a great lesson for all of us. Yeah, I think one thing's remained consistent with both of you in terms of some, the pain in which you've went out with your marketing campaigns communication. I think it's interesting to see Pratik, what was the experience at Urban Company? I mean, at least my assumption was that after the first few months, one of the services that like people started discovering and using a lot more with especially long hair and like tough places to go to and just being comfortable in the space of your own home, Urban Company was at least one group of logos that I started seeing around my locality or not. What is it like for you in terms of the app, the experience and the customer feedback? Yeah, I think contrary to popular belief, the journey for Urban Company has also been one hell of a ride. We had to redefine each and every service. Very similar to the Ola journey that Aswarya was describing. For us, the first step was to protect all our partners, the close to 30,000 partners that work across 18 plus cities for Urban Company. When the pandemic hit our first responsibility or port of call was to ensure that financially from a lone point of view, because like some of you already said, we are the privileged folks amidst all this. However, they took a real hit. So first port of call was how do we protect our partners and therefore their families and livelihoods until things started to open up around June, after the lockdowns were lifted, societies were okay to let essential services enter your houses or societies. The second thing was all of you who may have taken UC services in the past. One of the differences is we enter your house and the kind of services that we deliver, we spend two hours, maybe three hours in case of a full home cleaning service that takes a whole day inside your house. And in the current environment, pertaining to social distancing, people are like, I haven't met my parents for like since pandemic. So even if push comes to shove earning the trust of consumers to let you in and deliver a two hour job, be it a home cleaning, be it a haircut like Navin you mentioned and so on and so forth. It required us to reinvent our core service offerings, introduction of PPE kit, temperature checks. He introduced a ritual called Suraksha Namaskar. So whenever a partner would reach your doorstep, they would do a three step Suraksha Namaskar. And it's also a check the consumer can do to sort of verify whether he or she wants that partner to enter the house or not. And the consumer reserves complete right to deny permission if he feels she's feeling sick or has any kind of symptom, et cetera, et cetera. So the harder work was to get our core offerings right, redo every service. And the devil here lied in the detail for women, let's say for example, threading is a very, very core salon service using that as an example here. It's a service where the partner will come in very close proximity to you, forget the six foot norm. And therefore we had to completely change the technique of some of these services to ensure that these services can be rendered even while maintaining the government protocols and social distancing. And of course this was wrapped with a strong marketing campaign again, very similar to what Sunil and Vinayashwarya were mentioned, we call it UCSafe. But the core of the reinvention coming back to user engagement was building trust. I think this was the time the company realized that building trust via more ratings and reviews, allaying any concern when it comes to the safety and protocol our partners would follow in form of stories in the app, in form of user testimonials, a lot of content had to be created overnight. These were all UGCs, user generated content of early adopters of the post pandemic services to alley concerns of other consumers. There were a lot of young mothers who obviously had no other option but to take UC salon at home. So hearing from young mothers that how safe the service was, the fact that they could take the service even with a kid at home or with an elderly person at home, that helped a lot in what I call winning back trust, social proofing, which has come a long way. I mean, to put things into perspective, our conversion at completely tanked post pandemic when we resume services in June. But if I look at my current numbers, our conversion is back to pre-pandemic levels, which gives a good indication that friction points have been addressed. The drop-offs have been taken care of via the right content on the app. Second piece is major pivot to a metric I would call as reactivation for a large number of services, a salon at home for women or home cleaning. Because you are not stepping out, there is no need to groom or look good because the number of social occasions have gone down. So I mean, Naveen, yes, completely agree to your point on the need for a haircut, but why do you need a haircut if you have to show up in a few meetings over a Zoom call and you have the option to keep your camera off as well. So the number of occasions for grooming has gone down to a point where, like similar to what Ashwarya was saying, we can't force people to take the services or it's not about pushing an offer or doing a sale event, but it is to tell them that, hey, whenever you need the service, be it for a Karwachauth, be it for a Diwali which just went by, or be it for your office reopening, we are there, we are the safest option. And we take care of the seven step safety protocol that needs to be taken care of. So yeah, it has been a reinvention of sorts when it comes to our core service journey, the entire app flow, the app you see now across services versus the app you would have seen, the version of the app you would have seen last year is a completely different animal altogether. Some of the services have done really well. Professional cleaning, that's the need of the hour because you're spending so much time at home, you would probably want your bathroom, your kitchen, your entire house to be better cleaned because of the fact that four, five people are living under the same roof using it as work and office both, right? So that's one that has picked up. Men's grooming has done really well, but some of the other services we are still fighting hard, bounce back is on the way. Obviously the last month was great due to the number of festivals in the country, festive period in fact just got over as of Sunday. So yeah, but it's been a one hell of a ride for us as well. Yeah, I think, thanks, I think the pandemic was definitely like a shock which came into our lives, but everyone had to reinvent the way we lived, the way we worked. I think the one thing that stood out for me at least, the way in which all three of you articulated what changed is, I think the first reaction was of course that of building trust and getting the empathy with not just customers but partners as well and making sure that the brand is there available for them when required and an opt-in basis and not try to be in their face when there are bigger problems for them in the world, right? Like you have enough ones to worry about, you have so many things happening for you, all that you can do is be available when asked for. And I think the other thing at least in terms of the actual tactics of marketing is reactivation, relying on the fact that you had brand loyalists at some point who you can touch back with and like actually tell them that when you come back from the app, we are putting out upfront what are the different things that we've done and I think all three of you spoke about how the app went through a different set of planning to make sure that you earned that trust and telling them that it's a good time to be back and start consuming the services. So that's, I think that's a great takeaway for anyone listening that like, yeah, there will be challenges but reinvention will always help us land to the right place, right? Yeah, I think the next question I have is more on the lines of like, you know being someone who works with marketers a lot, just always keen to pick the bane of marketers to understand like how you track back some of this, right? Like all of you at different points in time have invested in like, you know, large scale like, you know, the conventional brand campaigns brand marketing campaigns which are going on TV, print, hoardings everywhere, like, you know to get to the masses. So what kind of mechanisms do you use to actually like tie back the effectiveness of these campaigns to back into measuring engagement or retention on your app? Like, you know, what is it that you've seen has worked for you? Pratik, if I could request that you go for this one. Yeah, so I think what I would like to say here is it's very important to be very clear on the objective of the campaign and the channel being used each and every time. For example, there would be pure play sale campaigns, iconic sale campaigns, all the players all the apps that we use have them. There will be brand building campaigns or there could be a mix of the two, broadly speaking. And their very, very sharp understanding of which channel should play what kind of a role. For example, in all my experience here, the role of television is more has been long-term brand building and salience marketing. The objective has been more around reaching your consumers at a defined frequency for obviously the cities that we are presenting which may require us to be laser sharp and sometimes we have taken calls of only doing high definition TV and not standard definition TV to take control to take care of the spillage that could happen. In terms of how such campaigns are measured, those are measured obviously via long-term brand hill tracks where you measure how your relevance for the service has gone up, how your consideration for say consideration for at home salon has gone up and so on and so forth. And obviously the direct revenue and trial metrics are there for everyone to see. But coming back to your question, very, very important to get the role of each touch point over historical trend analysis, competitor analysis, seeing how your last campaign has performed, that for me is the most important piece. So of course, there are very, very basic versus post or test versus control methods who attribute how much incrementality a television campaign got us in X geography versus Y where you didn't run the campaign. But larger or the broader learning has been that some of the mass media touch points, television plus plus, they have played a better role in long-term brand building, trust building. While of course there are day-to-day performance marketing campaigns and then there are digital brand campaigns which go a long role in immediate traffic uptift onto our platforms for the periods that we want to. Or for the peak consumption points in the calendar like the recent festivals being a very, very big peak for urban company because of the nature of services we are into. And then tracking the traffic uplift, obviously conversion improvement and so on and so forth. And what I have also realized coming back to the earlier discussion we were having, most of the campaigns, it's also important to be clear what are we doing it for? Is it for new user acquisition or is it for repeat resection? Some of our properties, we have a sale property called the Salon Spree. We have been running it for the last three years and every year we run three to four editions of it. It's a great event which a lot of our loyal users look forward to. So whenever Salon Spree happens, our first port of call is to reach out to our dormant and active user cohorts, tell them about the offers and why they should take the service over the next 14 days of the sale. While there are some larger events we do like freedom sale or republic sale where the objective is to also do mass new user acquisition, talking to non-users. What it means, the communication is very different. The way you would talk to the repeat user base is very, very personal, very different. You know them better than the non-users and therefore you can tailor your communication. Whereas when it comes to non-user I would rely more on the mass media, television, print-led marketing and reaching out to them with a broader value proposition because I don't know that consumer that well. So yeah, I think there is no straight answer here but coming back, understanding the role of each channel, each event or each marketing campaign and then defining KPIs according to the business requirement. I think that has been the mantra as far as I'm concerned. Thanks, Pratik. How's it been for you, Aishwarya? Like similar observations or have you seen, like do you also have clear distinctions of brand and performance or do you run hybrid campaigns or what have been your observations? So I think it's, I mean, I co a lot of things that Pratik said. So I think I'll not repeat a lot of things he said because a lot of things are extremely similar in the way we look at it as well. I think first of all, like if I have to divide the campaign types, you have acquisition campaigns and you have, you know, re-engagement campaigns, right? Like how Pratik said. So you'd look to acquire a new user or you would look to re-engage an existing user who has lapsed out of your platform, you know, either recently lapsed out or lapsed out long ago, your strategy would be different, you know, depending on the kind of, or the duration of the lapsing. And I think broadly, if you're divided into two, the brand campaign is an umbrella thing. It subsumes everything. It is more about building consumer mind measures like top of mind, spontaneous recall, awareness, or specific mind measures you want to. Like for example, if you want to be known as a safe service, you'll measure whether you're sort of achieving that with the campaign, et cetera. So mind measures are really how we look to measure anything on brand campaign, right? Of course, I think the business angle of a brand campaign will eventually boil down to a higher baseline shift on your organic visitors, right? Because people are fundamentally believing in you. So organically, more people are coming onto your storefront and transacting with you and taking rides. So your organic, the way we look at it is our organic baselines have to shift out, right? And that's really a shift that happens for the long run. So while you run the brand campaign, if your organic baseline shifts, and after you run the campaign, it dips down a little, but where it dips down is at a higher level than where you started off anyways in the first place, right? So that's how we measure the business angle of brand campaigns. But more importantly for brand campaigns, it's more about lifting the mind measures of consumers that we can measure independently through brand tracks and so on and so forth, right? So that's so much as far as brand campaigns are concerned. And of course, in brand campaigns, even testing your creative through either Google, Facebook, they all have fantastic tools to test it to see whether you're cut through messages, message cut through, et cetera, happening well, is par for the course, but that's an input metric into the whole thing. I'm talking about how you look at the output measurement. Performance is a whole different ballgame altogether. It's pretty much a users and cat game, right? So it's really about, I mean, I think Navin, you would know that more than anything else. So it's just an input and output game. So you turn it on, you get the users, you get added a particular cat, you turn it off, it goes away in some sense. And to that effect, I think you have a lot of sweeteners like offers or like Pratik said, the whole salon's free, Flipkart's big billion, whatever those properties that you've created to sort of get the user and cat ratio bettering, you're bettering that user cat ratio as much as you possibly can. Of course, cat is also measured on an LTV front, right? So whether that consumer is giving you a lifetime value over a period of one, two, three years, as you may look at how you measure that business. So I think that that's performance for us. Performance, but it's of course, that's the straightforward way of looking at it. Again, I jump back into funnel metrics. All of the campaigns, brand campaigns naturally, I think widen your funnel in general, because you really get more preference overall. So the awareness-pond term directly correlates to how your funnel widens as well in some sense, I feel in a brand campaign. A performance campaign also should ideally be optimized so that your funnels are working better, right? So you can get a ton of installs, but if you're not getting your installs to take rights, that means you're either getting the wrong kind of installs, you're not getting quality installs, and so on and so forth, right? So I think that is what I think Pratik had referenced earlier to measuring every part of the drop-off funnel as well, and seeing whether your campaigns are working hard enough. And that's so much for, I think, measurement as far as acquisition is concerned. And with respect to re-engagement, I really think, I think that's the big game in, like, so in different stages of evolution, right? In a place, in a company like Ola or, you know, a company which is entrenched, right? Most people already have the app, so it's not so much about app install and transacting. It is more about getting these users to be more engaged users of yourself, right? So whatever we can do to sort of ensure that happens. So if we define a fantastic cohort, right? Our best cohorts, how are we getting pushing more people into those cohorts? Even if we have a, say, an office-going cohort, how can we get more and more people to go into that cohort? How can we get more and more people to take more rides? If it's even an occasional cohort, consumer behavior is that they may just take their own vehicles between Monday and Friday, but on Saturday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, they just don't want to drive, right? So how can you get a higher wallet share of the Friday, Saturday, Sunday customer, right? It becomes a wallet share game in some sense, right? And here you're not just competing with your relevant ride-hailing competitor. You're competing with the Ilks of Public Transport because you also have Ola Auto, you have Ola Bike, Taxi, you have all of that, right? You're competing with the Ilks of Public Transport, you're competing with the Ilks of, oh my God, I would rather take my own vehicle than wait for a cab to be equivalent. So there's all kinds of competition you're dealing with there, right? So really, how do you get wallet share of different kinds of customers, right? A weekend user will never become a weekday user because he or she's not tuned to do that. But in the weekend use case, how can you get a lion's share of his or her wallet and so on and so forth, right? I think that's where the data science marries with heuristics, like various interesting things, like for example, what is your credit card usage? Are you getting fundamentally the Google Pay customer? Are you getting the credit card customer? Are you getting the cash customer? Those kinds of things as well. So you sort of build data science, which is the analytical piece, along with the software aspect of overlaying all of these things and trying to figure out whether you're actually moving in the right direction. I think that's sort of the slightly complex answer, but I think nonetheless, I think it's never a science. Yeah, I think the one thing that's state consistent from both of your answers is that understand what your campaigns are expected to do upfront and then hold them true to the standard post the execution of the campaign, right? Sunil, if you have anything additional to add, which is different or something else that you've observed in terms of your own execution of these campaigns? Yeah, no, I think both of them gave very on point answers. Just couple of things that I'd want to mention, one is once you know the objective and when you're talking about objective, I think it's also important to understand the organization view on some of these things, right? And sort of get alignment on that early on because it's good enough as a marketer to say I'm going to drive consideration and so on and so forth. But unless your CEO, founder, whoever also buys into that, also agrees with what it is that you're sort of doing, you're going to run into trouble. So I think that's one sort of thing to keep in mind and there are ways of driving this. So for instance, if I look at Goaibibo, I think a couple of years back, there was this campaign which was run at the time of IPL where you could sort of opened up the app when the match was going on. Every time a four was scored or a six was scored, you've got some points and you could then redeem that for purchases and things like that. So there are a lot of very interesting ways in which you can do sort of a mass campaign to drive very specific objectives, right? In this case, it was about engagement, driving engagement and driving transaction and so on and so forth. So that's one. The other thing I just add is like with everything else, a lot of marketing is art, right? And I think some of these things, you've just got to also acknowledge that and that's where I think experience also comes into play. Having an understanding of how this sort of equation works and how it will eventually translate into numbers. It's not necessary if you're doing a brand campaign that you put a brand campaign out there and you expect to see it translate into numbers tomorrow. Much as everybody would like that, I think unfortunately it doesn't work that way sometimes. Yeah, very true, very true. I think we're just nearing up on the end of our time. Before we wrap up, I think the one question that... If I was to ask, what is the one trick or thing that changed for each of you in terms of changing your engagement game within the app, whether that was a product feature or whether that was a marketing campaign, whether it was personalization or whether that is all of you considering adding stories to your own app because that's the new fashion, right? So gamification, there are many things which go around the world, right? So what is the one thing that has worked personally for you and given fantastic results even better than what you expected? Aishwarya, if you can take a shot at this. One thing, it's supposed to be a short answer. I'd actually wait for the rest to answer, honestly. As short as it can get. Can I request the other thing? Sure, I should have a trick up my sleeve. We'll figure that out later. Pratik, why don't you go ahead? I'll go ahead. So one of the things which, again, and I've been going back to the point of giving what users want because we are an app and consumers can't talk to us. There is no interface to talk. We came up with this concept of create your own package which is passing the power back to the consumer. You want to create a bundle of different homogeneous or heterogeneous services. Please go ahead and do that. That has been a game changer when it comes to our app to cart and therefore overall conversion improvement. Be it a salon service where earlier there used to be only fixed packages that you have to choose. And then similarly for cleaning service, there were fixed packages where it's almost as if urban company is deciding for Naveen whether Naveen wants two cushions and a fan and a sofa to be cleaned up versus giving you the power to create that package. Create, edit, modify, delete. So sounds like a very simple thing but all insights are simple as they say, right? I mean, most powerful consumer insights are the ones which are very, very dumb, often simple. So in my experience here, this feature or this ability for consumers to create their own package has been a game changer when it comes to our overall off-take as well as the entire conversion flow. Yeah, that's brilliant. Great insight in terms of like just a small change actually driving significant benefit. Sunil, how about you? Yeah, I mean, there's a whole bunch of them but let me just talk about this program that was done a while back called GoContacts, right? So GoContacts are a very simple idea which is you link your contact book to the app. What's in it for you? You basically earn money every time somebody on your contact book travels, right? And that was a massive success. I think so you basically earn 50 bucks every time somebody traveled and it also got you to engage because you'd obviously get a notification saying, hey, ABC has traveled and you earn 50 bucks and you'd come in and check and take a look at it. I think that was very, very transformative. It's amazing. I think, yeah, I think Goy, we book a couple of initiatives that you've spoken about now that you say starts bringing back of like, you know, maybe the campaigns are trend and what people were doing. Thanks for that. Aishwarya, now you have to answer this. What was your special answer? Sure, I don't think it was a special answer. I was just trying to figure out what to sort of answer to be very honest but I think it was more of a proposition change that really worked for us. I think when we looked at outstation, usually outstation is always about going forth and coming back, right? And even if you go only one way, you have to pay both ways because the driver has to come back and we all introduced one way outstation and that was actually a game changer for us. And when we sort of did that and we put it on the app we found that our conversion fundamentally improved, right? So outstation really jumped in terms of the minute you knew you only had to pay a one way fair when you came on the app that was a big proposition change that we had sort of put on the app. It automatically, like it's the quintessential example of a human inside playing very true in how you communicate and how it goes through the entire app funnel and how it sort of just improves the entire funnel. So I think that was one thing that I would say it lies between the marketing proposition and the app communication because that's a moment of truth, right? You're deciding whether you want to take this service or something else in some sense. So at the moment of truth sort of telling them that, you know what? You're going to pay half the money. Ooh, interesting, you know I will choose this over anything else kind of thing, right? So I think that sort of tipped the scales. Thank you. I think it was a very fascinating session. I can't skip the audience questions right now. I'm sure like, you know we'll find ways to answer it on social media or anywhere else if you try and reach out to us on behalf of the panel I've thrown that out to everyone. But I think overall I think this session was brilliant because I think what I at least took away is it's not just about the app experience it's about building the marketing insight by understanding users better understanding the people behind the Excel files and the cohorts better and personalizing your communication driving programs that really drive user opt-in is what changes the game for you and it's not about like being in the face of consumer always, right? Marketing is not just about always being present and getting their recall but just winning their trust and knowing that a brand is available when they want it. I think those are some of the key things that like I took away at least. It was a great session. Thank you Sunil, Aishwarya and Pratik for jumping in and joining your sharing all of your insights. Hope you all have a great evening and the rest of the event goes well. Thanks everyone for listening in.