 We're going to talk about Daniel Holtsclaw. Greg, why don't you tell us about him? Yeah, Daniel Holtsclaw was an Oklahoma City police officer who abused his badge, who sexually assaulted, was charged with 36 sexual assault charges. Convicted of 18, got 263 years in prison. The Innocence Project has since said that's probably not true and they're trying to get him out, but his appeal has been denied. Do you remember her name? I know, I know. OK. Do you make traffic stops normally after work? I don't, but in that case, I saw her swerving one night, so I felt like I needed to make that traffic stop. How was she? Was she respectful? Was she non-law? She felt like she was nervous one night, and I'm like, why are you nervous? And she was even crying. I'm like, why are you crying? Why are you nervous? What not? And she's just like, I don't know. I'm just nervous because you're a cop, and I got pulled over. I'm like, nothing. You don't have to be nervous about it. And I told her, I'm like, I don't really want to take you to jail for no SDL or anything. I just got off work. I'm tired. So with my officer courtesy of one night, I said, I'm going to get that taken care of tomorrow. And you don't have to fix. I'm not going to sit here and go. Why didn't she take her to the doctor? If you're a less love, I don't care. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I'll keep this really quick. He has a strong denial of her name as he turns his head and draws the left side of his mouth. Now, whether he knew her name or not doesn't really matter. That's one place he can go. What he has is some rehearsed information he's going to release here. And we see him using the illustrators. But we also quickly see him going into this braced position where his feet are locked. And what you pay attention to is feet and how they look. Point it in, point it out, slam together. He's bracing his body. And when you brace your body, your body doesn't like that. And he's a big, muscular guy. So when he's standing there and that he sits in a place for a long time, that muscle starts to feel that. And when she gives him the out and she's a good investigator, she gives him an out by giving him a break and saying something that lets him feel free. His leg pushes forward and he starts to try to relax that. He adapts on his legs. He almost does the whole batter on deck thing with his legs. And that's one of the first adapters you learn. It's a way to release nervous energy. He starts also to run down this mantra, swerve, didn't feel. And he doesn't nervous laugh when she asks him, do you typically pull over people when you're off duty? We're going to see a pattern here. This is the beginning of it. Chase, what do you got? Yeah, I agree with you. And he's locked down and he's wearing body armor. If you've never worn body armor before, it sucks heavy and it's hard to breathe. And he's still maintaining that lockdown. We see pacifying here some genital protection, which we do when we're scared. It's covering this genital area, which is also covering the femoral artery. So our body automatically starts protecting arteries when we're scared. And we don't really have a good baseline for this person. So my analysis here, I speak for myself, will be mostly rooted in two things, which is one, the presence and the timing of stress behaviors that are well known to occur. And number two, the experience in the interviews and research I've independently conducted for 22 years. So a lot of this will be my opinion and some of it will be peer reviewed, so to speak. In this group, the interrogator is more nervous, I think, than the suspect. And this is something that we rarely see. There's some strong confirmation glance while they're trying to overtly relate to the officer about the pain in the rear of having to do a DUI or having to process a DUI, do the paperwork at the person in prison. That was a big, let's connect and see how we both understand this thing together. And it was, there was a confirmation glance after that, which there was probably a little cringy in that environment. That's all I got. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so as many of you often note about me, it would seem that I've been living in a cave for the last few decades. And I know nothing about this case at all. In fact, the first I heard of it was what Greg just told me about it there. So I've gone into this completely clean. Let's see if I'm any good or not. Let's see if he's any good or not. So what have I got? Symmetrical gestures, that's always nice to see, but the illustrators, they're not very buoyant. They keep collapsing down. Chase, to your point, that could be about this body armor bringing him down. Let's see, let's see how that goes. So there's something depressed about it. Palms will often come in as the gestures come down. So it's quite protective. And I agree, Chase, it often comes into a fig leaf, quite protective there. Here's the most important thing for me about this one. Do you remember her name? In that case, I saw her swerving one night. So she asks, do you remember her name? He says, in that case, I saw her swerving. So he says, he says, no, he didn't know her name. In that case, I saw her swerving one night. Hang on a moment. So he's seen her on other nights then, which instantly causes me to go, you've been stalking her. How come one night you see her swerving? You've seen her on other nights as well. Sounds to me like it could be a stalking case. No, I have no idea how this turns out, apart from what Greg just said there. But sounds to me like we've got somebody stalking. Scott, what have you got on this one? All right, we're going to hear a lot of jargon. That's like police jargon. I'm not a cop, never been one. But I'm familiar with what some of that jargon is. And SDL is the suspended driver's license. They talk about that a lot. That's one of the reasons he, or one of the things he brings up about pulling it over. Let's pay attention to how close he's sitting to the wall right now. Because when we get toward the end, he gets closer and closer and closer, almost like he's being sucked into that corner in the wall right there. We're seeing a liar on guard at this point. So the illustrator's he's showing us. I agree with you guys about the body armor and the guarding of the groin and that stuff. But when you have that stuff on, if you'll notice a lot of cops, what they'll do is they'll, they take these weird postures when they've got that stuff on because it hurts up under here. And it's tough up under here. That's why you see them hanging on like this. And they'll put their hands up here to get them, yeah. You'll see their hands up here to get the, in the front of their, of their belt and their thumbs pushed in because it takes that, that uncomfortable stuff out from under your arms when you do that kind of thing. So I think in this case, what we're seeing, we're not seeing a whole lot of adapters here. I'm with you, Greg. We're not seeing a whole lot of them. But what we are seeing as adapters, that's when those hands go slapping to the lap. I think that's what happens because when you slap your lap, you can feel those muscles contract just a little bit. And I think that's all he's got room for at that point. So he's, he can do that and it looks fine to them. It looks normal because they, they were, he's talking to cops. So they understand the whole, the whole body armor thing. For the most part, his illustrators are small. You're right, Mark. They're very small. They're very tight. And as we know from out of the grade, what he would, he found in his studies where if someone's not being honest, if they're being deceptive, in other words, their illustrators tend to be smaller or not as big. We do see some large illustrators but those things go up like this. And so a lot of that is hand slapped down to his lap and a lot, like Greg was saying, a lot of the hand rubbing on his legs, those kind of things. And that's, that's very, that's indicative of being deceptive. You see that all the time in that. I'm not the only one who thinks that. There's a lot of other studies that show that as well. You can't count on that as an adapter. That's the point I'm getting to on this. You can't count them because somebody rubs their leg that they're being deceptive, but boy it sure shows up a whole lot. We're hearing some fading facts in there as he talks, it gets quieter toward the end of what he's talking about. But to wrap all this up, we're seeing a liar on alert at this point. Do you remember her name? It was on the description. I know, I know. Okay. Do you make traffic stops normally after work? I don't, but in that case, I saw her swerving one night so I, I mean, yeah, I don't. Felt. After I get off work. I know, I mean, people can't say that, but I just have a, you know, one night to have the vision whatever, but I felt like I needed to make that traffic stop. Okay. How was she? Was she respectful? Was she non? She felt like she was nervous and one night and I'm like, why are you nervous? And she was even crying. I'm like, why are you crying? Why are you nervous? What not? And she's just like, I don't know. I'm just nervous because you're a cop and I got pulled over. Like nothing you had to be aware of. And I told her, I'm like, I don't really want to take you to jail for no SDL. All right, I think I just got off work. I'm tired. So with my officer, courtesy or one night, so I go and get that taken care of tomorrow when they're on her way. And you don't have to, I'm not going to sit here and go, why didn't you take her to the doctor? If you're a less, no, I don't care. What about pants? Nothing in her pants as far as that, because she was wearing tight jeans. She said she pulled them down. I didn't see it. You didn't see her pulling down? I didn't see her pulling down pants. Could she have done it when you were up searching the car? She could have. I didn't have her handcuffed or anything. When you came back to the car and got her out, were her pants fastened? Were they? Yeah, everything was. They were up. Everything was still intact. So you never saw her pull her pants down? No, I didn't. Why do you think she's making this up? I don't know. Did you write her a ticket? I didn't. I let her go. And I won't even arrest you for your no-sdl? Try and figure out why she'd say that. I mean, I could see her saying it if you wrote her a ticket, because she's pissed off. Why? Now, make it quite clear, if you saw her boobs, I don't care if she's flashing here. I did not see her. You did not see her boobies? No, I did not see her breasts. Is she saying you shined your light on her? I did not see her boobs. Where do you keep your flashlight? The left side right here, right down my radio. Did you have a flashlight out on the traffic stop? I did. When she was going like this, did you have your flashlight on her? I didn't like that. But as I'm out on the radio, like this, I have it positioned over us, but I didn't. Right, but did you have it on her when you're talking to her so you can see her? I mean, put it on her when she goes like this, maybe she could have come through. Right, to see her inside of the vehicle. Was it the dumb light on? The dumb light was not on. It didn't come on? I don't know. Does that come on when you open your back door? Mm. It's been too long since I've been in a scout car. I can't recall to be honest with you. I don't think the back, I don't think it does. It's supposed to be a dumb light. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I love the interviewers gesture there. You know, as she kind of rattles her fingers, they're going, mm, I can't really work out why this is happening. I think that's a signal to him. That's a signal to him of frustration. You know, we got to get this moving. You know, we got to make sense of this. What's interesting from the angle that we have, we can then see how she self soothes after that. I think already she's feeling this isn't going as well as she would hope. This isn't quite as rapid as we would hope. Because this is like, let's move this along kind of gesture and I'm quite active and enjoying this. And I'm enjoying the inquisition. This for me says, I'm worried about this at the same time. So that's interesting. I also see when she looks away, he rubs his leg at the same time. Now I think that indicates that he's noticed she's not watching him at that point. And it's a chance for him to self soothe. So I'm concerned about his self soothing as she looks away. I'm also concerned about just as you were saying, Chase, that she's looking not so confident about this. And that concerns me. But Chase, what do you think about it? I was laughing because I was doing those hand things under the table as you were discussing them. I'm like, yeah, that's what that feels like. There's one critical point here. There's a bunch of stuff here in the beginning, but right at this point where he's saying, I never saw our puller pants down. He's slurring and softening speech at the same time when he's saying, no, I didn't. He didn't finish the word, didn't at all. And guilty suspects are far more likely to do things like soften the severity of the words that we're using to describe a crime. They're also more likely to have vocal changes present where three things typically happen. And number one is the fading volume. Or if you're in the BodyLanguageTactics.com, you'll learn about fading facts a whole lot. And this is a critical thing. You'll see it a lot. Number two is words are less cohesive. And number three is more word usage. Instead of just no, they'll use more words. No, I didn't. No, I did not. And there's a doctor who wrote a book about this. I highly recommend. I get no kickback from this. His name is Dr. James Pennebaker. And this book is called The Secret Life of Pronouns. Fabulous book. I highly recommend it. But finally here, she asked, do you have your flashlight out on the traffic stop? He says, I did. And right there, there's no hesitation. There's a single head nod. He maintains eye contact. And he has some discomfort using words to describe but shining the flashlight down her shirt. If you watch it again, when he's doing this shining motion with his hand, he's narrating with his hand, shining it down her shirt or miming that. There's some discomfort there. And I think you'll be able to see it. Not really. Okay, I think when she says, did she pull her pants down? He answers way too fast. He said, well, I didn't see it. And that's just for what he's been doing so far for the baseline, we've got him so far. That's way too fast. And then she asked the interviewer, asked, did you write her a ticket? Again, way too fast. I'm not seeing this thing where she's afraid of to talk to the guy or nervous at all. And keep in mind, there's a guy sitting right across from him when he's rubbing his hand on his leg. So I don't think he's sneaking a hand rub in there because one guy is sitting right in front of him. It's like I'm pacing you right now. So I think it's just nervousness and that's the way he's adapting. I agree with you, Mark. That's the way he's adapting right there. But I'm not seeing the nervousness with her you guys are seeing. I'm seeing her step into this the way she should. The way it should to me. I can, it all looks the way it should. Greg, what do you think? Well guys, if you go watch this whole video, I think what you're catching is she's projecting. And that's what I think you're seeing, Mark, because she's talented. If you go watch this whole video, she starts off building rapport and she's like potty mouth bad to try to get him to talk. And it just, I cut most of that out. So I think what you're seeing is she transitions to make him feel a little more comfortable. And what is beautiful about this is he does a couple of dumb things. Number one, he's locked down. If you don't believe he's locked down, watch those feet bracing him back in the corner. A good interrogation room could fix this. If you got into where he had to move around and he was not wedged in there like a little fat potato stuck in the corner, then he would be in a better place. But she does a couple of really cool things. He does a nervous laugh and does some throw away words when he says he didn't see her. There are two things that are incompatible in his denials. He says, no, I didn't see her take her pants down. And then he says, in his voice to your point chase and your point mark, his voice drops. He does some kind of a fry and he says, I did not see her breast. Hold on, which one of those things is true? Are they both true? Does he switch patterns casually that way? Most of us don't. So I would be hanging on there for a second. She's pretty damn good at picking up on source leads in later videos. I wonder she picked up on that. I don't know. But when you see him there, he's got his forehead up and lilting at the end. As he says, no, I didn't write her a ticket. I think that's his normal communication style. If you'll pay really close attention to him, I think what you're gonna find here is when he's prepared something, he uses his hands, he illustrates. When he runs out of data, you hit it dead on mark. Those hands drop and then he starts to adapt. If you wanna know whether he's braced in the corner or not, really easy, watch him. The minute she gives him that freedom to say, does the dome light come on? That's non pertinent. In interrogator speak, that's non pertinent questions. When she does that, he relaxes and takes that foot out of the brace position, moves out, adapts because his leg is feeling that pressure and the stress, but I'll go back to something else you covered, Scott, early. His head is tilted further in the corner now. So we're seeing him braced and pushing away. I think we could be seeing a combination of a ploy by an interrogator that looks like X or Y. That's what I got. What about pants? Nothing in her pants, as far as I can see her. She was wearing tight jeans. She said she pulled them down. Well, I didn't see it. You didn't see her pulling down? I didn't see her pulling down pants. Could she have done it when you were up searching the car? She could have. I didn't have her. Did she have them on? I didn't have her handcuffed or anything. When you came back to the car and got her out, were her pants fastened, they were up and so you never saw her pull her pants down? No, I didn't. Why do you think she's making this up? I don't know. Did you write her a ticket? I didn't. I had to let her go. I said, I won't arrest you for your no-STL. Try and figure out why she'd say that. I mean, I could see her saying it if you wrote her a ticket because she's pissed off. That's right. Now, make it quite clear, if you saw her boobs, I don't care if she's flashing you. I did not see her boobs. You did not see her boobs? No, I did not see her breasts. She's saying you shined your light on her. I did not see her breasts. Where do you keep your flashlight? The left side right here, right down my radio. Did you have your flashlight out on the traffic stop? I did. When she was going like this, did you have your flashlight on her? I didn't like that. But I said, out on the red, like this, I have it positioned over us, but I didn't. Right, but did you have it on her when you're talking to her so you can see her? I mean, put it on her when she goes like this, maybe she could have come straight in. Right, to see her inside the vehicle. Was the dumb light on? The dumb light was not on. It didn't come on? I don't know, well. Does that come on when you open your back door? Mm. It's been too long since I've been in a scout car. I can't recall to be honest with you. I don't think the back, I don't think it does. That's where the dumb light. Well, officers, it's here, so. Well, Daniel, this is kind of one of the things that we're kind of bringing in here to see how truthfully you like. Right. Now you need to kind of kind of think of a few different things here. Okay. Okay, we pulled up a lot of video around that area after these allegations. Okay. Okay, she also have a same exam which you know what that consists of. Right. There's a reason why we wanted your bubbles. Okay. Okay. Now, and we can go through a couple different things of why we've got you in here, but you're sure there's nothing you want to. Nothing. So if we go off the video and watch that. Right. You're still going to stick with your story. Yes, sir. If we go off DNA. DNA as well. Should we show you the video? If yes. You do want to see it? Do I, yes. So there's nothing that. Everything that I recall for that night is what I was asked and everything. That's what happened. Have I maybe not asked enough questions? I think everything covered as far as that. Chase, what do you got? This is a classic bait question and it's done well. It's done well. We were collecting lots of data and is there any reason we would see X is kind of the basic formula for that. But during the video question, you guys might disagree with me, but it's pretty good. He's pretty good in response to the video question and if in guilty people, we're more likely to see people to ask about the video. Like what video is it? Where is it from? Negotiate about what they should say, ask for a lawyer, probe the interrogator for more information. And his head nod and answer had no hesitation or breaks in eye contact, which I would have expected to see. And when they're talking about a sane exam, this is a sexual assault nurse examiner. And if you've been sexually assaulted, I'll give you a couple of tips here. This might save your life and might put somebody in jail if this ever happens to you. But number one, don't take a bath or a shower. Try not to use the toilet. Don't change your clothes. Don't comb your hair. Don't clean up the area where you're assaulted and that will help this investigation that will help to catch this bad guy. The interrogator's level of nervousness around bringing up these questions is kind of obvious here. We see pacifying, we see artery protection. I'll let you be the judge where the artery is. We protect arteries when we're scared. And we're also gonna see fidgeting, which is just expending or burning off some excess energy. I've got a bunch here, but won't worry too much. Greg, go ahead. Yeah, this is one of those great examples of a source lead. Remember I always talk about when you're talking to somebody, they tell you what you should ask them when you're interrogating someone and he does a great job of it. He goes to everything that I recall that night that was asked is what was asked. And she goes, hold on. Did he just say, I've told you everything you asked me? And she goes right after him. And that's a beautiful thing when she does that because if you watch him, he's got his hands together now. He's in what I call his stress fort. He's back in the wall. His feet are blocked. His feet are together. They're together. They're like in the position of attention pointing toward the guy who's asking a question. And he goes to some softening and respect when he says, sir, I'm not sure that may be a senior guy that is somebody in the department, maybe the reason. But you see his feet locked tight. You see his hands braced. You see him flex those thumbs when he gets cornered. And it is he's starting to lose language is a reason he can't finish a sentence to say, what I recall is everything it was asked. And he's doing a little bit front of the mouth talking as he's being respectful. He's not asking questions back. He's only responding to what he's gotten and he's licking his lips. They're stress. If he were not in that little wedged in fort that he's got, we'd see a whole lot more movement. And if we had him sitting on a table or something where his feet were hanging, I bet you we would start to see his feet pointing toward the door. But watch his feet from here on out. Scott, what do you got? All right. I don't think they should have asked the question. When he answers the question about the cameras and stuff, I think he knows there are no questions there. I think they made a mistake during that because you don't go in and do it like that. The good, in my opinion, the good bait question is would there be any reason that you would be, we would have any footage of you on camera? They come on saying that we've got camera footage and they may have it, but I don't think they do. And I think he knows they don't. And that's why he looks so confident with that answer. That really about they're really good. So maybe they do have it and I'm missing it because they're great interviewers. But I don't know, that's the only thing that rubbed me wrong on this. Now, when he says everything I recall happened, by using the word recall, he doesn't say, he should be outraged at this point. He should say, no, you got camera footage. Let's get that in here, man, and be loud about it. He wouldn't be saying, well, sure, I'd like to see it. You know, you ask me if they want this. Would you like to see that? Yeah, sure, I'll take a look at it. No, you say, yeah, you get that in here right now, man, let's go over it. I want to show you that's not what happened at all. If you have camera footage, this is over, man. Let's take a look at it. That doesn't happen. That really, so he's not acting the way he should in this. He's confident because he's probably sure there's no video, but at the same time, he should have said, yeah, man, let's go look at it. I want to see what's going on. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, I believe the male interviewer here knows that bait question didn't get the effect that he was hoping to get because he launches that bait question, gets the response, OK? And then the interviewer tuts afterwards. There's a vocal click afterwards. He's upset that he didn't quite get the result. The female there, I'm with you, Chase, it's interesting. She's self soothing right in here for a long, long time. At the same time, her foot is going 10 to the dozen there. So there's a massive difference between what a feet are showing and what her thumb is doing on her wrist there as well. I'm going to suggest that good as these two are, they have somebody in the room here who is not responding as in the way that others that have been in that room will tend to respond. I have a feeling that this is not going for them as deftly or fast or they're not seeing the kind of responses they would like to see on any one day where you go, let's go in there, let's get this done. And things would move along quite swiftly. It's not, I think, a normal day for them because we're seeing responses, we're seeing conflict in the female there and we got that tut afterwards that it didn't hit just as they'd like it to hit. There, that's what I got on that one. That's funny. What are you saying? All I'm saying is this guy's locked down pretty damn good. I mean, his body language compared to a lot of senior guys, I don't think he's been a cop at five years, but he's learned a lot of stuff in five years. Yeah, he's a player. I'm not seeing this. I think what we're seeing with her is excitement. I think it's what we're seeing. I think she's trying to contain excitement. I don't think she's nervous. I don't think the other guys are nervous either. Same chemical. Yeah, all I'm saying is there's conflict. There's conflict between what her foot is doing and the self soothing here, which could be to calm down excitement or it could be, I don't know what it, I'm not mind reader, but I know there's conflict going on there. Then the other thing, Mark, is I will tell you that being an interrogator and being in the room and trying to get somebody, you're animated as all hell mentally when you're doing it. You're like, you know, so some people bleed to others don't, and if she doesn't think he's reading her, I guess she wouldn't care, right? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, officers here too. Well, Daniel, this is kind of one of the things that we're kind of bringing in here to. See how truthful you are. Now you need to kind of kind of think of a few different things here, okay? We've pulled up a lot of video around that area after these allegations. Okay, she also have a same exam, which you know what that consists of. There's a reason why we wanted your bubbles. Okay. Now, and we can go through a couple of different things of why we've got you in here, but you're sure there's nothing you want to? Nothing. So if we go off the video and watch that, Right. You're still going to stick with your story? Yes, sir. If we go off the DNA? DNA as well. Should we show you the video? If yes. You do want to see it? Do I, yes. So there's nothing that you... Everything that I recall for that night is what I was asked and everything. That's what happened. Have I maybe not asked enough questions? I think everything covered as far as that. Well, I think you're really, in all honesty, you need to really double think about this. I mean, I gotta be honest with you, it doesn't look really good. Okay. Okay. I mean, what you originally thought, detectives just don't roll up in there for no reason. Right. Okay. And we just didn't pick you out, out. Okay. I mean, there's a whole lineup there. Okay. But there's definitely enough here to bring you in here to start questioning you. Right. Okay. We knew you were on that stop. Right. We knew you were there. And we can watch a whole lot of actions being performed while you were there. Okay. That's why she was trying to give you every out on the whole booby thing. Right. Okay. And is there any reason, any reason at all, even from whatever angle, because, you know, it takes a little bit to clear up those videos. Right. But any reason why your penis would be out? No. Nothing? Nothing. Okay. All right. I'll go first on this one. I think this is a classic bait question. This is the bait question. Is there any reason that, and I think at this point, I don't know, maybe they do have it. It doesn't feel like they do. It doesn't feel like they do, but she's so excited she can hardly stand it. She's rubbing on her head and everything else. I really do think that's what we're seeing is the excitement there because they know they've got this guy because they've got a lot more information than they've let him know so far about what's happened before he got there with, which we'll talk about in just a few minutes. But I think she's excited. I think the other guy, and he is the detective we can't see or the guy we can't see, he's doing such a good job. He's going right down the line of how you approach these questions and everything. It's almost like, well, I think he's doing a really great job on that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think the issue for the subject here is the exam because on the exam, we get the elbow popping out. I can't remember what you call that Chase, but I think you have a name for that one. If it's coming to mind, pop it in now. What's your name for that? It's a pugilistic or joust. I love it. I love it. Yeah, so lovely. So he jousts on the exam. That would suggest to me, there's a problem in that for him. So that's interesting. He's anti the exam. Same time, he's resisting quite well. I get what everybody's saying about he's moving towards the wall and we could say, look, he's locked himself down. It's very hard. It's clearly a lockdown because it's very hard to stay in that position for a long, long time. It's not a very natural position at all to steeple with your thumbs for that amount of time. So he's clearly locking it down, but he's getting quite a good result, I think. Here's my problem with the idea that they have camera evidence. These videos are not helping. Well, what videos and how are they not helping? We're gonna do the comparing and all that. What are you talking about? Compare what to what and what's all that? Why? What's that about? But it's not looking good so far. It's not looking good. You're doing antithesis there. It's, you know, if I were listening to that, I'd be thinking you don't have anything, do you? You just don't have anything. And my worry would be on the exam. And I think that's why what's happening here is worries on the exam. And they're leaking, for me, too much that they don't have anything there. I don't think they'd be using that language if they had anything solid. Greg, what do you think? Yeah, if I were in a situation like this and given the opportunity to milk as much information out of the investigators I could, I would do exactly what he's doing. I would lock down, I would brace. I probably wouldn't do it physically because I'm looking for body language tells. But this investigator is bleeding information in the beginning. I agree with you, Scott, his question is good, but he has filler words in the beginning. And he says, in all honesty, double think this. That's time for him to think. If I'm sitting across from him, I know that he's trying to think. And he's doing, remember, I say, good interrogator looks like a swan, but their feet are paddling like hell into the water. His feet are paddling like hell to do this. Then she's smart. Here's where I do think she's talented. She leans into him and gives him a break, the good cop, bad cop thing. And you see a little bit of a break in that lockdown. But his blink rate goes up a little. I can see a little bit of it there. And then this guy drops to a grunt to answer every question. He's barely a syllable. And then the one thing that I noticed that is interesting for me is there's disheartened response and sound that barely comes out of his mouth when he's saying no and nothing. It sounds a lot, Scott, like when you and I were talking to, no. Not hear that, that makes me want to dig in. But he's doing a great job of forcing them to give information and he's giving none. That's powerful. Chase, what do you got? This is a great example of him doing something that, this is the read technique is what we're seeing. And I think direct quote from the read training is building anxiety associated with deception. And what they're doing here is called data stacking. This is, I'm stacking known data with suspected or assumed data together so that it has more credibility. And then there's the bait question, which is great. And if you ever hear these words yourself, stop talking and get a lawyer. There's not much behavior to show here. There's a lot, and Scott, I agree with you about the excitement there. When I'm saying nervous, I refer to the exact same chemical, I refer to adrenaline in an Olympic athlete where it's excitement or a amateur where it's like, I'm worried. So I think absolutely there's excitement there that she's thinking that there's something around the corner that there's gonna be some profession or something. I think there's actually a kind of a confident denial going off of his limited baseline that we have so far that we've seen so far. And this is my opinion as I watched it this morning. And so far it looks like a confident denial, but we're gonna show you, I think in the next few videos, why it's not. Well, I think you're really in all honesty, you need to really double think about this. I mean, I gotta be honest with you, it doesn't look really good. Okay. I mean, what you originally thought, detectives just don't roll up in there for no reason. Right. Okay. And we just didn't pick you out, out. Okay. I mean, there's a whole line up there. Okay. But there's definitely enough here to bring you in here to start questioning you. Right. Okay. We knew you were on that stop. Right. We knew you were there. And we can watch a whole lot of actions being performed while you were there. Mm-hmm. Okay. And that's why she was trying to give you every out on the whole booby thing. Right. Okay. And there's very any reason, any reason at all, even from whatever angle, because it takes a little bit to clear up those videos. Right. But any reason why your penis would be out? No. Nothing? Nothing. Okay. Now, in doing this, you know how saying exams work and I ain't got to explain about DNA or anything like that? Right. Now, I didn't say you had sex with her. Right. Okay. But you didn't know. Okay. That is a different story. Right. Okay. You see my concern here. I'm just listening to you, sir. I know. But I'd rather listen to you and you start talking. That's all I have, sir. Are we going to get something from the same exam? Go with the same exam. And do you understand that you don't have to full blown to get something out of the same exam? Right. We can get skin cells. We can get prenatal and do all that and still get DNA. Right. And did your penis? No, it did not. Okay. So, DNA will clear it up and here's the deal too. We can fall on the sword and say I screwed up or something. But if we say, we didn't do it, we didn't do it, we didn't do it and then the DNA comes back and says, he did it, then we have a huge problem. Right. We're here to give you the chance to fall on the sword so we don't, we don't want a huge problem. We don't want a huge problem for you. Right. It's, this is time, it's time. If you're, if it touched your mouth, if it touched the inside of your mouth for one second, two seconds, three seconds, you gotta tell us now. Look, there's a huge difference. There's a huge difference in between being forced and some old girl who wants it. Right. Okay. We've had plenty of that. We get that, we know that. Okay, but there is, there is a big difference, okay? Right. But I'm just saying, you know, these videos ain't helping and we're gonna do the comparing and all that. Okay. Okay. But it's not looking good so far. Okay. Okay. And I don't want to see anybody go down for something that there is no force. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, he starts off, this investigator is painting a picture. I chased your dead on. He's stacking everything against him. He's trying to talk him down into this position where he's got nowhere to go. And he does a good job of talking to him that way. And if you want to know how I know that is because he's internalizing. Look at me, I mean an internal conversation with himself as his eyes drop down into his left while the guy's talking. Now he is either thinking how do I counter this or he's internalizing it and turning it into something useful for the investigator. It doesn't matter either way. He's impacting this guy. The guy's not just rigid sitting there. I think he does a great job of being father-like. There's probably something associated with him being senior in the department. The reason he keeps referring to him as sir. But he projects and actually shows you what he's thinking when he does a nervous laugh. And he says, I'm just listening to you sir. He's telling him exactly what he's thinking. But that nervous laugh comes up again. We've heard this about three times and it's always around things that it shouldn't be. And then that's all I have sir. And he does a quick head nod like, okay, that's it. When they ask you, what are we going to find when we use the sane? No is the answer, not go with the sane. No, you're not gonna find anything about me. There's nervous laughter again. Then he tucks his head and he leans back into the corner. We also see a little bit of jaw working. Mammals do that when we're thinking. It's just part of what we do. And you can see when pressure's rising, that happens. But he takes a deep breath. He backs into the corner and then that officer tries to release it a little bit. This is just showing you that he's got a posture established of bracing himself and holding himself in that corner. I would love to see what happens when you pull him out of that corner because they've given him an out here. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so again, the female interrogator here is always full of some kind of conflict for me. I don't know why. If she were in some kind of professional conversation with me, I'd call it out and I'd go, hey, here's what I'm seeing about you. And what's going on for you right now? We get splayed hand on the table and the other hand protects the wrist joint and holds it down. That for me is a conflict going on. And we'll see other conflicts going on the way. Again, I'm not a mind reader. I don't know why she's always in conflict and what the conflict is. But if it were a professional conversation between the two, she's in some kind of session with me or interview with me. That is something that I would go on and go, I'm really curious. What's going on for you right now? For him, I think as a generalization, the subject here, the denials are pretty good and strong. And I'm sure people will pick them apart and absolutely. But as a generalization, seem pretty strong and he's continuing with this steepling here as well. Now again, what I've said before is that's hard to do. You've got to make that your job. So now I start to go, clearly now this is your job to nail this one down, button it down and to come across with as strong a denials as you possibly can. And my guess is you probably have an idea of what those should sound like. So now it feels to me like he's definitely in this performance of resistance tactics. And as a generalization, tactics are not bad. I mean, he's doing relatively well in this situation. Chase, what are your thoughts? We see a lot more read methods here in play. And some of the ones we're seeing here are minimizing the situation, projecting the blame onto someone else, socializing it to where people understand, emphasizing the truth. So those are some of the key elements of read. And Daniel seems confident in his answers and seems confident about DNA a little bit as he was about the made-up video. So he probably knows the video thing is made up. And as a quick note, if you're seeing closed off behavior here you're probably also seeing how most police are gonna interact with internal affairs, personnel even when they're not under some kind of investigation. But they're comparing things. A oral thing versus actual intercourse. They're comparing something willing versus something that's not willing. And this is an interrogation technique called the alternative question or alternative phrasing where I'm saying, are you either this guy who's done this 60,000 times or did you just make one little mistake? And that's what we're seeing right there. And we're still lacking firmly stated denials and we're also lacking emotions. The biggest emotion that we're really lacking here is anger, innocent people get angry, guilty people get angry, innocent people stay angry. Guilty people's angry goes away relatively quickly. So their only critique I have of the interrogator here is falling on the sword is not a very good metaphor or choice of words to pick for him. Him doing the right thing is dying on some sword. And in the end here, Scott, you said it before we went live here. This is the point where the nodding started, right? This point, I'd love for you to talk about that. All right, his nod is not a confirmation nod. I think there'll be an argument about whether it is or not, but usually the confirmation nod, you say, I didn't do it and they'll be doing like that. His isn't going with the words. His is just up and down, up and down. There's no, it's not in sync like an illustrator would be as you speak, that kind of thing. So yeah, I don't think that's happening. When it comes to the hands on the desk mark, I think if her fingers hadn't been splayed out, I would say, yeah, there might be a problem there, but the more space you have between your fingers as you speak with someone, as you know, then the more confident they are with what they're talking about. Even though she's slapping there on the table, I got the feeling when I was watching that, she was trying to creep up slowly to him so she could put her hand on him. I just knew that she was going to reach out and say, man, you got to tell us what happened, but she didn't do it. She was right there when we were in here watching this. We talked about that a second, but she was so close to doing that. And when Host Call says, that's all I have, sir, he would have a whole lot more to say like Chase was saying, than that. He just wouldn't say, that's all I've got to say, sir. No, you're going to be mad. When you go into something like that and you tell somebody that you know something is one of the things you look for when you say, hey, when you sit down and say, they know you did this. There's no question about you doing it. I'm sure you're trying to find out what happened. Why did you do this? If you start off with why did you do this and that person gets mad, it's easy to look mad. Like you were saying, Chase, it's so simple. But the person who didn't do it, they're going to stay mad because they'll know they're there because somebody put them there, somebody from their group of people said, no, that's the guy that did it or the girl that the woman that did it. And so they're going to be mad at that person too. And their anger is going to stay there throughout that. And they're going to keep going back to that. None of that here. Nothing whatsoever in this thing. And again, they bring up the same exam. Now, keep in mind that it's the same thing as a rape kit. When you hear people say, he's a rape kit, that's what they're talking about. Because it's a nurse who is specialized, has extra training to go along and do this as well, to get in there and be able to grab that evidence and collect it the right way to help put that person in prison at the end. I'm getting all worked up here. I shouldn't be as worked up as I am. I'm trying to calm down a little bit. Anyway, so that's what I'll end there then for you. So Scott, that might be the conflict that I'm talking about. Because that's what I said is that she's confident, display, and she's got her other hand over the wrist holding that hand back. There you go. Which is the conflict that I'm talking about. Maybe she does want to go out and touch, but there's conflict as to is this the right time to do it? Is this the best time to do it? And what I think is that conflict between the two. Okay, I can see what you're saying. I got you. Yeah, I think you nailed it. That makes total sense there. Yeah, man. Now, in doing this, you know how saying exams work and I ain't got to explain about DNA or anything like that. Right. Now, I didn't say you had sex with her. Right. Okay. But again, okay, that is a different story. Right. Okay. You see my concern here. I'm just listening to you, sir. I know. But I'd rather listen to you and you start talking. That's all I have, sir. Are we gonna get something from the same exam? Go with the same exam. And do you understand that you don't have to full blown to get something out of the same exam? Right. We can get skin cells. We can get prenatal and do all that and still get DNA. Right. And did your penis? No, it did not. Because DNA will clear it up. And here's the deal too. We can fall on the sword and say I screwed up or something. But if we say we didn't do it, we didn't do it, we didn't do it. And then the DNA comes back and says he did it. Then we have a huge problem. Right. We're here to give you the chance to fall on the sword. So we don't, we don't want a huge problem. We don't want a huge problem for you. Right. It's, this is time. It's time. If you're, if it touched your mouth, if it touched the inside of your mouth for one second, two seconds, three seconds, you gotta tell us now. Look, there's a huge difference. There's a huge difference in between being forced and some old girl who wants it. Right. Okay. We've had plenty of that. We get that, we know that. Okay. But there is, there is a big difference. Okay. Right. But I'm just saying, you know, these videos ain't helping. And we're going to do the comparing and all that. Okay. Okay. But it's not looking good so far. Okay. Okay. You don't want to see anybody go down for something that there was no force. Not five of them. Okay. Cases that didn't happen. The problem is what we're at right now. Okay. And that's why we wanted to hear your version of the story rather than we just go off of what we see and, and I mean, whatever this test out as. Right. Okay. But. Sir, I'm, I'm sticking with my story out. Okay. Okay. Are we going to see her boobies? Shouldn't see her boobs. I didn't see her boobs. Okay. Are we going to see her puller pants down? I didn't see her puller pants down. Are we going to see your boobs out? Nope. Are we going to see your boobs go in her mouth? No. Are we going to get any DNA to that? No. Let's switch up for a second. Yeah, another girl. Okay. You probably don't, not necessarily going to remember the name, but her name is Terry Morris. Okay. Black female. Supposedly you promised her a ride to the city rescue mission. This ring of bell? No. You did a traffic stop with her. She thought you ran for warrants. Clicking. Drove her around. No name as much as I don't recall a name like that. She's claiming the same thing. The exact same thing. And here again, for whatever reason, things are pointed to you again. Right. Now this was before even this incident this morning. All right, Chase, what do you got? The denials are semi-confident here. Only slightly worried denials showing stress is when she asks if they're going to find DNA. There's a little swallow muscle movement here. But the denial that he makes is only about her name. The denial is only about her name, which is a little suspicious. And this locked down behavior isn't suspicious on its own. So remember, a lot of what we're looking for are clusters of behavior, which indicate likelihood of deception. So the lack of denial here for the second woman is more telling of guilt. And him being truthful at certain moments does not equate to him being innocent. So let's get that completely out of the way. Greg, what do you got? Yeah, let's talk a little bit about this lockdown. I firmly agree with you that lockdown alone means nothing. However, when he's talking about something he's prepared, he's not locked down. His hands are moving. It's when he's in a bind that he has his hands and all that locked down. I'll give you a couple of things to look for here. If you've ever been in a situation where you just have been limb-basted, beaten to hell up verbally, and you're in a situation where you can't do anything about it, you lock down. It's what humans do. We lock down and we sit there. I have, when I was in the old guard in Arlington Cemetery, I got my chewed by a sergeant major for 45 minutes one time. You know how I stood? With my hands behind my back listening and going, yes, sergeant major, no sergeant major. That's what you do, what you can't do anything else. He's talking to IA, he has no choice. If you're a rage-filled person, you're also smart enough to know you don't let the monster out. You don't let the trigger hit you because when it does, you're gonna do something. And you're really gonna look guilty then. So that containment may be, he may be a hothead. Not saying he is, can't tell, but that lockdown gives a person who's hotheaded the ability to sit dead still rather than letting that trigger happen. We all know when the amygdala hits, what comes after that. So if you pay attention to him, he's nodding along with this guy and then his face kinda recognizes what's going on. He's calling out someone else. The guy says she said exactly the same thing you did on this first one. Remember, the organism does what makes the organism successful. If this guy was doing sexual assaults and had a method of operation to do it, people are ritualistic around food, sex, and sleep. It's just the way our brains are wired. If you pay attention to this, you'll start to see he makes two really interesting fumbles here. He says, I'm sticking to my story. That's an odd choice of words to say I'm not guilty. He also says, you shouldn't see that. And then when she says, are we going to see your, the weakest response possible comes out. It's another, no, it's a disappearing or as you would say, Scott fading facts. He breaks eye contact. She's asking him specifically about his body parts, her mouth, and DNA. And then he goes back to the mail. His blink rate increases. He takes that bone that was thrown and says, I don't remember her name. That's it. He doesn't go, I didn't know or never met her. So we got a problem here. Scott, what do you got? What did you do to get yelled at for 45 minutes to have that? Well, it's kind of a dumb thing. This guy was a hot head. Everybody knew he was hot headed. And I was helping somebody out. Another Sergeant Major, whose daughter needed an ID card. I was trying to handle it. And I turned around and said to this Sergeant Major, I was on the phone and said, Hey, Sergeant Major, you got to do it yourself. This Sergeant Major happens to walk in the room and hear me tell the Sergeant Major has to do something for himself. And he just melts down. And the other Sergeant Major standing there going, a JD, trying to calm him down. No good. And he screamed at me for no kidding. 45 minutes. I was a record for a while. Geez. All right. Were you dating the girl or something? In the old guard, you don't talk back. You stand. It's got, Jay Leno did call. He said he wants his outfit back. Yeah. This is a mistake. I can't get this thing to work. Lord. That's funny. Here's what I'm saying. His answers are very, he's sitting really still as answers are short. One word answers, one, two, or just these little pops of answers. And then again, you're right, Greg, where he says I'm sticking to my story. That's weird. But he does that hand slap thing again as he's adapting. He doesn't get on the boobs question. And then with any of these questions that you would get, anyone would get, you'd be animated at this point. You'd be all fired up. You'd be angry. You'd be outraged and nothing. Now, when they bring up Terry Morris, this is when he knows for sure he's had it, man. This is when he gets real still at that point. He's almost like freeze framed there. If you go back and look at him, just really, he knows it's up at that point. The odds of somebody of you being in trouble for something and them talking to you about it, and then having saying as well, and you know it's a fact because you did it. Them saying, hey, guess what else? Somebody else said the exact same thing that this girl said, or this woman said. So what do you think about that? The odds of that happening are astronomically low. Two different people who don't know each other outside of that that happened to him. So he's on that again, the liar on guard, this guy is in big trouble and he knows it. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I agree. He's locked down and he's locked down hard at the moment. I'm just super interested in the drama between him and the female interrogator here because I think her questions at the start aid his locking down. I think she knows she's got some good, strong kind of hints and questions going on there. And then it hands over to the male and I think she starts to lock down at that point. Could be all for all kinds of reasons. I don't know whether it's about she's super excited and she wants another go at him. She thinks she's onto something. Or she's holding herself back because she wants to move away from the script that they have or certainly the process that they have. I think there's all kinds of reasons, but very interesting how there's some slight mirroring between the two and it could be that. It could be her going, okay, so he's being still locking down, I'll do that as well. I'll join him on that. I don't know what it's about, but it's interesting for me. It's about them, okay, cases that didn't happen. The problem is is where we're at right now, okay? And that's why we wanted to hear your version of the story. Whether we just go off of what we see and I mean whatever this test out as, okay? Sir, I'm sticking with my story. Okay, okay. On the video, are we gonna see her boobs? Shouldn't see her boobs, I didn't see her boobs. Are we gonna see her puller pants down? I didn't see her puller pants down. Are we gonna see her boobs out? Nope. Are we gonna see your boobs go in her mouth? No. Are we gonna get any DNA to that? No. Let's switch up for a second, get another girl, okay? You probably don't, not necessarily gonna remember the name, their name is Terry Morris, okay? Black female. Supposedly you promised her a ride to the city rescue mission. This ring of bell? No. You did a traffic stop with her. She thought you ran for warrants. You was clicking, drove her around. Name is, I don't recall a name like that. She's claiming the same thing, the exact same thing. And here again, for whatever reason, things are pointing at you again. Right. Now this was before even this incident this morning. She didn't offer that? She was nervous, like I said, she cried earlier. Did she cry? As soon as she stopped her or after she was in your car, when did she start crying? I think in the car, yeah. What made you let her go? Number one. To be honest, I want to get home. Why'd you pull her over? Like I said earlier, I just cop, swerve, DUI. And if I had, if I had, I know if I had to do it, I don't know, but I didn't think that she was possibly gonna want it. That's just, I mean, I just would avoid that if I, did you at any time, you said you picked her up around 50th and Lincoln. I mean, when you saw her swerve, did you at any time, were you always behind her or did you pull up beside her to maybe see who was in the car and then pull back behind her? She was at 50th and Lincoln, swerve, and I was behind her, so I felt behind her. And then went to her. Were you ever beside her? No. Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I think we see a big tongue jut from him right at the start of this. I think there's some attrition happening. I think there's some breaking happening there. And I think the female interviewer knows that at this point. I'm gonna, I reckon the conflicts that we see in her, because we see them again. We see the hand being comforted between the legs. We see her go and touch her ankle as well. And I think we see that when she thinks she's onto something, when she's getting excited, when she thinks it's actually moving in the right direction, she starts to suppress, restrain herself, soothe herself to calm it down because I think she might be like a dog in the trap. And once the rabbit is running, like the dog's out and she's gonna be after it and she's gonna get it. And I think it might be her way of just keeping herself calm and locked down. So she doesn't make a potential mistake of going too fast, too far and plays it by, I think, I guess the methodology and the rhythms that are proven to work time after time after time. Though when the dog sees the rabbit, you wanna go for it. But lovely to see that elements of self soothing there and adaption there. Greg, what do you think? Yeah, so this is him with what he's prepared to talk about. And this is later in the interview from the first part. When he gets back to something he's prepared to talk about, he strings phrases together, he's no longer doing these single syllable utterances. He even appears to have a little bit of a smirk. His hands and body are out of that fortress mode and then he's just guarded, his hands are still up here. But his head and neck are moving and he's paying attention to the person he's talking to. He goes with his brow up and he says, to be honest. Well, to be honest, people will say that means you're lying. To me, it means that you are in a push-pull world. What does that mean? I wanna ask and negotiate why you use that word. And I wanna dig in. Well, what do you mean to be honest? I thought that's what we were doing and I'll go at you that way because now I get to create some stress in you as I'm talking to you. Then when he says, I didn't wanna write her and then she asks a simple logic question that causes him to have nervous laughter. This is where I would dig in. He stammers, he does a nervous laugh and then he goes to the Rounzenberg mantra. We're back to phone, dash, floorboard, whatever it is. He's using words. He's saying cop, swerve, chickens, whatever because his brain is now losing the ability to use language. Anytime he feels like he's credible and he has a prepared story, he's illustrating, he's making eye contact and he's out of that grunt and block. Grunt and block is a style when he thinks he's in a bind. So I think we're seeing something that won't matter. Scott, what do you got? All right, he went over a lot of stuff I was gonna do. But let's talk about his illustrators. They're not in sync and they're just, they're really odd at this point. He said, to be honest, he's still doing the leg slapping. We're still seeing all that stuff going on. He's still using his adapters that way. Then as he's speaking, as he's not speaking, he's using his illustrators too in place of the words. It's just really, it just looks weird at this point. That's somebody whose head is on fire in there. They can't, I think he knows it's up at this point. Okay, who's got a haircut like Kim Jong? Okay, that'd be Chase. Go ahead, what do you got? Oh. This reminds me of eating kimchi. While testing nuclear weapons. I tried to think of it somehow to tie that in. I couldn't. If he's truthful, that means this woman made up the statement, completely falsified the statement to the police. If she falsified a statement to the police, she has committed a crime. If she has committed a crime, she is a perpetrator. And guess what has vanished in every moment of this entire interview? There is no perpetrator. The vanishing perpetrator strikes again. One cool thing you guys covered a whole lot. Right at the beginning, there's two adjustments of the thumbs, right when he locks back down again. And this is preparation to get them in the right place so that his body is locked in position. And you'll see this much more than you could possibly think. You'll see it if you're watching somebody pitch you on an idea and Scott is excellent at doing that kind of stuff. But right here where he's just reciting these words, that is untruthful because he has not done this before. Some people just speak in little nouns or these just like nouns and verbs, but he does not. He never has, and this is a long interview. He never does that. So this is a huge massive red flag here. And right there, when they're talking about besides her, it looks honest, probably due to the reasonable expectation, like did you come up beside her in the vehicle? He looks honest here, probably because he knows there's no street cameras in that area where he was initially flipping his lights on and doing the stop. She didn't offer that? She was nervous. Like I said, she cried earlier. Did she cry as soon as she stopped her after she was in your car? When did she start crying? I think in the car, yeah. What made you let her go? Number one. To be honest, I want to get home. Why'd you pull her over? Like I said earlier, I just cop, swerve, DUI. And if I had to do it, I don't know, but I didn't think that she was possibly gonna win it. That's just, I mean, I just would avoid that if I... Did you at any time, you said you picked her up when I'm 50th and Lincoln. I mean, when you saw her swerve, did you at any time, were you always behind her or did you pull up beside her to maybe see who was in the car and then pull back behind her? She was at 50th and Lincoln, swerve, and I was behind her, so I felt behind her. And then went to the castle. Were you ever beside her? No. Did your pants come unzipped? Unbuttoned anything while you were standing right there. No. CSI is processing your car right now. Right. And when we stepped out, they found some pubic hairs right in here. Could they be yours? No, that's not, I didn't pull my ass out and do anything out there. Did she? No. I see you think they couldn't be. No, it's not, no, nothing online. Your pubes couldn't be? No. Right there? No. Has your ass ever been out by your car? While I'm working? No. Not working? No. Have you ever had sex in the back seat of your car? I have not. Because I'm in some people who, I'm not saying forced sex, consensual sex. Right. So your ass has never been in your back seat? Mm-hmm. Is it possible any of this DNA shares? No. That's, I would like to go, go at it. Not my DNA. Are those pubes gonna be yours? No, no. All right, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, so I think she makes a mistake and she realizes she makes a mistake here because she gets married to a concept and follows it too far. She asks him about hair from a specific part of his body and whether or not that could be in the car and she just goes at it and at it and at it and he may not have hair on that part of his body and I think he is strong and confident in his denial and laughs about it. Not in a nervous laugh, in an outright laugh. So he didn't direct answer some of these things. He goes back to that fortress. He's in that single syllable until she brings this up and then he's comfortable. He says, she asked him, did you pull your body part out? And he says, I didn't pull it out and she picks up that source lead. Well, maybe he didn't, maybe somebody else did. So she brings that up and he goes, well, no. And then he tucks his chin in, inhales and goes to throw it. No, again, something's up there. He locks down tight. She missed that question about maybe he doesn't have hair and then she goes another source lead where he says, working, no, she gets it and she goes after him. He goes back into that lockdown and there's nervous laughter, but you can see that he feels like he had a win right here. I think she makes a mistake. Scott or Chase, what do you got? During this pants question, the chin goes down a little more than normal and this is a protective behavior. And when they're talking about the hair, the denial, listen closely when you go back. The denial about the hair is about location, about where all this took place. The denial is it didn't happen there. It didn't happen right there. Yep. And in truthful people, it's more common. They encouraged the testing and the analysis of evidence instead of just making a little denial. Are we going to cover 11? I hope so. Yeah. Okay. We'll get to it. That's all I got. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So what interests me in becoming kind of apparent from hearing what you're saying, because again, I'm fresh into this. I don't know the outcome of any of this. And I heard from Chase in between videos that this guy does some kind of bodybuilding. He's a big, big lad there. So that might suggest why he's calling them on the DNA from hair because there may not be hair in a certain place. Also, it speaks. Now I understand he's a bodybuilder. He may well be taking testosterone, which will also mean that he's going to see the world as not so threatening, less risk in the world, which might be why he's managing to keep relatively from what we might expect somebody to do in this situation, relatively calm and collected and knuckled down because he may not be seeing the threats that you and I would be feeling and experiencing in this situation. That's what testosterone, one of the things that testosterone does, it makes the world look way, way less risky to you. And that's why I think, so we get this pen click from the end, which would normally it's an adapter and it's a pacifier because we hear it again and again and again. We might ascribe to some kind of stress, pressure, anxiety. Based on what you've said there, Greg, maybe there's a feeling from her that she missed something there, that she's played it just that little bit wrong. We get the anxiety there, she turns to her partner in that sense of, I think you need to take over or you take this one or where are we gonna take this? Cause it didn't quite hit how we'd like it to hit. I think he's calling out the DNA there and going, I don't think you got anything on that one. Scott, anything more to add on that one? Yeah, just a little bit, I agree with you. I think she's, but it's like a car that's trying to get over a hill or something or get over the bump and it can't quite do it but it keeps backing up. That's what I think that that pen thing is about. I think she's all worked up at that point. I think she, I feel the same way you guys do about it. Did your pants come unzipped unbuttoned anything while you were standing right there? No. The CSI is processing your car right now. Right. And when we stepped out, they found some pubic hairs right in here. Could they be yours? No, that's not, I didn't pull my ass out and do anything out there. Did she? No. I see you think they couldn't be. No, it's not, no, nothing online. Your pubes couldn't be right there? No. Ever been out by your car? While I'm working? No. Not working? No. Have you ever had sex in the back seat of your car? I have not. Because I'm in some people who, I'm not saying forced sex, consensual sex. Right. So your ass has never been in your back seat. Is it possible any of this DNA shares? No, it's not, that's, I would like to go, go at it. Not in my DNA. Are those pubes gonna be yours? No, no. We've had so many people sat in that same chair that tell us all day long, I didn't do this, I didn't do this. They promise on their baby, on their mama. Right. They promise to God. And then they come right back, we give back these tests and you can't get out of it, you know? I mean, once you kind of get, basically kind of locked into something, there's no talking about it. Right. And that's why we would try to give a person every opportunity. Right. Because if the tests come back, you ain't coming back in here. Because we're here, we have a woman that says about, you know, basically being, Right. Okay, and we're calling it by force and all that. Big difference between that and a hookup. Right. And to come back, if there's something there and you say no and she said it was that, you know, you see where we're going. Right, I get it. And that's why we always try to give everything. Right. If we wasn't there. Right. So we just gotta go off of everything that we see and have. You don't understand. No hookup? No hookup. Not even a little hookup? No, not a little hookup. No booby. No booby. I saw no breasts. Did she see your? No. I'm just trying to think of anything that she could have misconstrued. Or why? Why'd she get all this trouble? Did you do anything that pissed her off? That's what I'm saying. I don't think I did anything when I was talking to her. I wasn't rude. She was cooperative. I wasn't at a point where I'd be like, okay, you're going to jail or something or whatnot. I don't think I made any like threats to make, you know, to get in the car, like I said, or anything like that. Mark, what do you got? Yeah. So I like the way she goes on this, which is to lighten the mood there. You know, quite an animated voice. They're almost a cartoon character, a very young cartoon character, you know, not even a little hookup. She says, trying to lighten the mood. She's using childish words now or colloquial words for, you know, parts of the body, the secondary female characteristics and softening that. But it's interesting. He's going for anatomical words, more adult words around that. So he's not going to join her on this particular, you know, route that she kind of quite like him to take to soften this idea. More anatomical, more adult there. You know, I love what she's doing with her fingers there. She's super excited. And I don't know whether she's trying to indicate that to him, like we're running out of ideas and trying to get him to fill stuff or this is truly her. She gets excited and she has to calm herself down. So what most jumps out for me is I wasn't rude. I don't think I made any threats. Well, if you're very definite about that you weren't rude, but you're uncertain, I don't think that I made any threats. I mean, I think you would know. If you know you're not rude, you know you didn't make any threats. So there's a strong possibility for me that some threats were made there. Scott, what do you think? Yeah, I agree with you on that part. Again, he's not reacting or responding the way he should for this kind of thing. At some parts he's laughing. And his brain just must be on fire, man, because he knows he's against the wall at this point. But he's still doing that, like Greg talks about that nervous laugh. Good Lord, I mean, it's just so, that's got to be so tough on what's going on on him and his brain in there. And there's that wall again. He's getting closer and closer back to that corner. Now, physics tells us, if he gets any closer to that crack, to that corner, he's gonna be able to see into the future at this point. So I don't think he can get any closer to that without saying, okay, it's over. And his answers are really quiet. They're not forceful, not even a little bit. I think he knows it's up. He's still, I don't know. I just think there's not much left here for him to defend. And I think he knows that's why it's getting so weak, I think at this point. Chase, what do you got? I think at this point, this is where the bait question should really be hammered in. This is the spot. This is the location for the bait question. And the perfect one, especially in many of these cases that are just like this is, is there any possible way that this person could accurately or even remotely describe your genitals or pubic area in any way? And if they can describe it, the person's gonna have to wonder like they've gotten some kind of testimony. What has this person said? What have they gotten from this other person? But the technique she's using here is called narrative scarcity. And this is your last chance with us here. Once we walk out of the room, we can't help you. And this is it. We wanna make sure that your story's right. We wanna help you get this, get ahead of the problem, all this kind of stuff. This is the last chance. But he actually says towards, I don't think I made any threats. How could any human being, who especially a law enforcement officer be uncertain about whether or not there was some threat to get a person into the backseat and take off their pants? It's surprising to me that they didn't just jump into this with like a 12 gauge. Anyway, Greg, what do you got? Yeah, guys, I had my threat comment here. You guys have covered that in great detail. So I'm gonna jump to something else. Every interrogator on earth knows to use threat and rescue. Good cop bag, cop mutton, Jeff. There's names for it everywhere. And if you don't believe that, the people who came back from Vietnam from the Noi Hilton called it threat and rescue. They could identify the ploy that was being used by the North Vietnamese interrogators. So it's common and it works. And here's why it works. Watch what happened here. He's locked down. He sees the threat as the male investigator clearly because he's in fortress again and he's being helpful and grunting little short syllable answers. And then she jumps in there, mark with your funny joking and she becomes the good cop. That gets him to start talking again. And when he starts to talk, he starts to bleed information. He does that nervous laugh. He's in fact amused. Look at his face. He's falling for the fact she's just like using childlike words. If you don't think it's working, here's the best one to show you. He starts to illustrate again and his feet turn and face her. They point toward her. Something is going on in his head and that's how we always know. A lot of times I'll often say, I'm always the threat so somebody else can be the rescue. The guy who is raising a lot of noise and putting pressure on somebody is a prop. The interrogator is the person who's being friendly and you just need to know that. Watch what happens. We've had so many people sit in that same chair that tell us all day long, I didn't do this. I didn't do this. They promise on their baby, on their mama. They promise to God. And then they come right back. We give back these tests and you can't get out of it. I mean, once you kind of get basically kind of locked into something, there's no talking about it. And that's why we would try to give a person every opportunity. Because if the tests come back, you ain't coming back in here. Because we're here, we have a woman says about, basically being. Right. Okay. And we're calling it by force and all that. Big difference between that and a hookup. Right. To come back, if there's something there and you say no and she said it was that, you see where we're going. Right, I do. And that's why we always try to give everything. We wasn't there. Right. So we just gotta go off of everything that we see and have. You don't understand. No hookup? No hookup. Not even a little hookup? No, not a little hookup. No booby. No booby. I saw no breasts. Did she see your? No. I'm just trying to think of anything that she could have misconstrued. Or why? Why'd she get all this trouble? Did you do anything that pissed her off? That's what I'm saying. I don't think I did anything when I was talking here. I wasn't rude. She was cooperative. I wasn't at a point where I'd be like, okay, you're going to jail or something or what not. I don't think I made any threats to get in the car, like I said, or anything like that. I didn't hear a lot of drunk questions, like how much did you? How you've been drinking. Mainly it was just how you've been drinking and trying to get her confessed. See anything inside that juice? No. Why are you driving so late at two o'clock? Where are you going? Going to Arbor on the west side? Where are you gonna see? Just trying to just talk to her. Right there, those questions maybe took 40 seconds. 15 minutes. And you said five at the car. So then we got 10 of a lot of questions. You tell me I wasn't there. Obviously I don't have any audience. Then that's what I'm saying. Roughly on a traffic stop, take about 20 minutes. It was a quicker traffic stop, about 15 minutes. That's your quickest traffic stop? No. Okay, you're a slow poke. I don't really get 10.90 at all or anything like that, but I take my time sometimes. But you didn't like my tickets. Didn't run her ticket. You didn't run her. Didn't run her. You didn't even put yourself out. Didn't put myself out. How could you take 15 minutes on that? Just talking, I'm less than talking. So that's it. I can't see her wanting to talk if she's crying and asking if you're going to shoot her. And all this, I don't see her being real force coming with this conversation. The word, my questions or whatnot. That's it, man. Chase, what do you got? So I've got one sentence here to describe the whole scenario that we just saw in this clip. The woman has details for those 15 minutes. He does not for those 15 minutes. That's all you need. And this is textbook consumer decision. It's deception. We've got to think in terms when you watch any of these videos in the future. What's being hidden? What's missing? And this is exactly what I call a detailed valley that anytime there's tons of tons of details and then it goes into a valley where there's no detail whatsoever. And it skipped over and then it goes right back out. So when you hit a detailed valley, there's a ton of stuff missing. There's something being concealed. That's all I got. Scott. I think this is the worst for him so far. And he's talking about pulling over another person, not running them and not giving them a ticket and not putting himself out. When they talk about running them, that means they're seeing who they are. They're call it they are seeing, are they criminal or they have a background that's not good, that kind of thing. And when you say putting yourself out, you didn't put yourself out. When you pull someone over, like I said, I'm not a cop, never been one. But I know this is what they do is when you call it putting yourself out or I'm out at. So you tell the dispatcher where you are. So if anything happens, I know where to send people. So everything comes up. Nowadays, you can see where they are on a big map. But that's what they're talking about there. And if this guy is doing that, if he pulls up somebody, pulls them over and doesn't even say, hey, I'm pulling somebody over, something's up. And it's not the first time he's done it. So I think this is the worst for him so far. Greg, what do you got? Let's make it this very simple. Most lies are gonna fall into four categories. All lies, omission, commission, embellishment, or transference. The lies of omission, I'm gonna tell you the whole story except for the bad parts. That's exactly what he's doing. He's hiding time. Well, the reason they're asking him about time is they know procedure. They probably wrote it. They're senior officers. So what they're doing is they're saying, you should have done these things. Why didn't you do that? And why did it take so long for you to do the things that you did do? So if you walk through the whole process, you get him starting off. He's editing as he speaks. He says, Arbor, not Ann Arbor. He earlier said Ann Arbor. He is now saying Arbor. He does a hard eye contact with her when she calls him out and said that should have been 40 seconds. Hard eye contact. He recognizes the threat and his face kind of looks fallen. If you notice his lower face goes flat. He's gone from brace now to putting his hands in front of his groin and his body slumps. That's pre-confession. That's getting to pre-confession when you get there. He pushes his feet together and forward and then he goes back to this whole thing of bracing and she brilliantly comes back to that good cop release and she gets him comfortable enough when she starts joking around with him about being a slow poke that he actually adapts, moves around and then does the batter on box, rubs his thighs. That's powerful. Let me, she just realized she's got to play the good cop. When he says talking, must've been talking, she turns it around and goes at him again really hard and says, why would she talk to you? See his mouth, his forehead and his head shake and the rise of his hands. I can't explain it. She knows he can't. She's got him on the ropes. Mark, what do you get? Yeah, totally agree. That lightning of the situation with the slow poke which seems like a bit of a joke but it's kind of a neg move, draws him in. He admits the laughter. You get that self soothing with the hands on the legs there and he's now moved into her. Mike, that what not. Go back and replay what not. If it was, if what not wasn't important you just get what not. What we get is what not. There's about three or four movements in the not. That means that there's something unsubstantial in that. There's something hidden in it somewhere. Like what is 10 minutes of what not? It's like, go go back and listen to it. It's an extraordinary piece of music that goes on there. So beautiful move there and elicits from him not only self soothing but a cadence in one word that is totally out of his baseline. Go back, listen to it. Let's see some samples on the internet of that. Let's get Dead Mouths doing a full extended 45 version dance mix of that one. It's gonna be amazing. Okay. I didn't hear a lot of drunk questions, you know. Like how much have you been drinking? Mainly is just how have you been drinking trying to get it confessed? Same thing inside that juice? No. Why are you driving so late at two o'clock? Where are you going? Going to Arbor on the west side? Where are you gonna see? Just trying to just talk to her. Okay, right there those questions maybe took 40 seconds. 15 minutes. And you said five at the car. So then we got 10 of a lot of questions. I mean, you tell me it wasn't there. Obviously I don't have any audio. Then that's what I'm saying. Roughly on a traffic stop take about 20 minutes. It was the quickest traffic stop, about 15 minutes. That's your quickest traffic stop? No. Okay, you're a slump hook. I don't really get 10.90 at all or anything like that, but I take my time sometimes. But you didn't write your tickets? I didn't write my ticket. You didn't write them? I didn't write them. You didn't even put yourself out? I didn't put myself out. How could you take 15 minutes on that? I'm just talking. I'm messing and talking. So that's it. I can't see her wanting to talk if she's crying and asking if you're gonna shoot her. And all this, I don't see her being real forthcoming with the conversation. Whether my questions or whatnot, that's it. Let's throw her out in the room and see what we get. Let's wrap it up in 30 seconds or less and say what we think about what we see. Mark, you wanna go first? Yeah, I didn't know where this one was gonna go at the start. I mean, it starts quite lightly and I'm not sure exactly how well these interviewers are going and the subject there is really locked down, but it doesn't take many moves to elicit what we get in that last video. And as Greg was saying, he's on the ropes and he's on his way out. And I think he's inside and he's doing time as he very well should be. Chase. I'm just doing one sentence here. The problem with locking down is that it either shuts off or screws up the behaviors that should be there with a truthful person. It shuts them down, screws them up. Greg? Yeah, you can hide a lot of things but you can't hide everything. And when you choose to make a way of behavior work for you and it's that lockdown, the Hulk, I'm gonna grunt and I'm gonna sit there and embrace myself. Anytime that changes, it's a deviation in baseline. And that's what we all love. Scott, what do you got? I think this is a great example of two interrogators working well together. I think they've probably done this for a long time and I think they did an excellent job actually. And watching this guy, he doesn't change a whole lot. A lot of people are gonna think this is, may think this is fairly boring because he's not doing a lot, but as you've seen from us talking about him, there's a whole lot going on there. So I think that's a good lesson, I think, to see or to understand that just because there's not a lot going on that you can see once you become observant and know how to observe these things, this is what we're trying to teach you, then you see all these little things are such a big deal. So that's what I got. I think this was a good one and we'll see you next time. See you. Mr. Holst-Claw, this jury finds you guilty of the various counts. You will be remanded to the custody of the Oklahoma County Sheriff for formal sentencing set January 21st, 2016 at 10 o'clock a.m.