 2-3 and 2-1 SAS are the reserve unit. People talk about SAS training. They always call it selection. And then you'll also be on the course where there are elements where you can't pass it. It's just ridiculous. Willie Cope in a situation where he's all on his own. I said, I've failed all the tests, I'm colour blind, and that's it. Don't worry about it. Have you got his stamp anywhere? Nick, how are you, brother? Good, Chris, thank you. Really great to see you again so quickly. And the reason I say that is it's not often we get a podcast where I get so many messages saying, Chris, can you get that guy back on? No disrespect to my other wonderful guests, but in particular, I think it was the sheer honesty of the chat we had about your work as a contractor in the Middle East. And you spoke very openly about the contacts, your unit experiences and the losses you suffered. And not a lot of people prepared to go to that level of honesty. Nick, so I think thank you for that. And obviously our audience appreciate it. They wanted to get you back because probably... There's probably about three questions I get asked the most. One, how come you're so handsome? That's me, Nick, not you. Two, can we get someone from 777 Brigade on the podcast? Obviously not while they're working for 777 Brigade. They'll be down in the comments. They're the trolls in the comments section. But also, could you get someone from 23 SAS? And I guess the feeling there is that people genuinely want to know, how do you go from maybe being a civilian one day, walking into a recruiting office and then potentially being on the road to Special Forces the next? And yeah, so over to you. Yeah, I think the first step that people need to make is just try and find out as much information as possible. There's a lot out there now, they think that to be fair. Generally, as I think you mentioned on the last podcast, you know, it's an open book to a certain extent. Certainly with 23, there's a lot of open source information out there and if you go to a recruiting office, you can kind of get a really good understanding of what kind of level of fitness, you know, the strength conditioning kind of process you need to go through to start that process. What courses, you know, essentially you might be doing, blah, blah, blah. And so you can get quite good understanding. It's just that people don't make that initial step. They think, I could never do anything like that. My belief and maybe we're touching on it later with the League Outdoor Fitness is that you can pretty much achieve anything if you put your mind to it. And I know that sounds a little bit cheese because everybody's saying that at the moment. But I generally believe that as long as you've got a relatively average or a body composition that allows you to kind of over an extended period of time get you to X, then there's no reason at all as long as you're not limited by, you know, maybe some like medical conditions and stuff like that, why you can't get to a very high level of fitness. And so the process is there. So, you know, I think it's really initially people need to take that step forward. And I'm getting people, certainly in the last two or three years approaching me now that I'm becoming a little bit of the go-to for training specifically for courses like that. So that's a good thing. Yeah, we should point out here for friends at home who may or may not be aware. Two, three is the what do we call it? And is it the territorial army, the reserves? Yeah. And, you know, if I get this wrong, I apologize because it kind of goes back and forth a little bit with its roles and stuff like that over the years. And depending on who's in government, they make, they change their mind on what kind of world they're going to be having. But generally, two, three and two, one SAS are the reserve units. And you can call them territorial army units, but they're a little bit different. I think that they're the only, certainly when I was in, they were the only reserve units. The same as, you know, a Royal Marines reserve and two, one and two, three in SPSR. So they, although they're TA, if you want to call it that, it's not the TA in the sense that you're not going and becoming a weekend warrior with a like a Wednesday night session. It's a lot more involved in that. You know, you have to put your entire life on hold and essentially become like a FTRS, like a full-time reserve forces soldier. And, you know, the people that are looking at maybe going for reserve special forces would have to consider, you know, the work that they do, the family that they've got and stuff like that because they will have to make a huge commitment at the end of their training process to actually facilitate kind of getting in and completing that whole process. So, you know, there's a lot more to it than just being a TA unit. Yes. And of course, as with everything we discuss military, on this podcast, we don't rank like this service is better than this one or these guys. Everyone performs a role and everyone deserves mutual respect no matter what they do in life. Let alone the armed forces. So, I just want to put that one to bed before we get our some teddy bear out the brand. Yeah, yeah. In addition, we're not here to discuss our two-free, like, better than two. I'm guessing there's probably lots of parallels but there's probably pros and there's probably cons of both. One, for example, and perhaps we'll come onto that is obviously through the reserve you attract a lot of real quality people because they're possibly already really well-educated. They might have been through the university system. They might be a doctor or an accountant or I think those are the benefits, yeah, the reserve and not as well. You know, some lad that finished school doesn't work in the factory and decides to go for it as well. If I, like I do now, the elite outdoor fitness, everybody that's on my elite outdoor fitness team, not that I'm delving into that yet, but they have their own specific roles that they want to do over the physiotherapists on nutritionists. I like to employ or work with people that are very good at what they do in those areas. I think that's what, you know, I probably want to increase my fell-running capacity. I know I have to train myself for fell-running but I'll speak to Speed, who's my best mate, who's an excellent international fell-runner for Wales, number one for like 12 years, to say, you know, are there any snippets? Because that's what he knows. This is what he's extremely good at and he just gives those little snippets. Somebody that's been in special forces like myself and now runs my own company, I think that's what I bring to the table. I'm not certainly saying that I'm better than anybody else or certainly the difference between 2.3 and 2.2. It's completely different, they're different jobs. It just happens to be that they come under the same umbrella of the special forces group. And 2.3 and 2.1, although they're starting to, I believe, merge a little bit more than they used to when I was in. It's about me, certainly, of being an XSS soldier. I'm just kind of bringing that element, you know, when we go and do expeditions and stuff like that. It's about I'm able to maybe reflect on my experiences when I did selection or when I was working within 2.3 or even a lot later. My experience as well, I've been in positions or situations where I have to rely on my robustness and my resilience. And the only reason why I've been able to do that is because during training, they put you in those areas. You know, they pull that out of you. That's why it's a bit of a given up course if you're looking at the SF course itself, because you need to be an individual that really wants it. And I mentioned that before. And it's not just about fitness. It's not just about carrying yourself over the hills because there's plenty of people that can get to that level of fitness. And I'm a true believer, you know, we've got a hundred percent success rate, but you know, one lad that came off with a COVID positive test more recently, in that I can get pretty much anybody through the attitude phase if they're passionate enough and they have enough drive and they have enough time on their hands and time for me to train them. It's that last bit that is very difficult for most people to complete the process, which is having that kind of personality that will allow yourself to go into the hall for an extended period of time. I want to come on to that, but I'm really fascinated first to literally, I want to relive your journey. So where were you? What are you doing? And how did you get to hear that there's this entity called 23 SAS? So I was in a bit of a pants wobble in the military. Now, yeah, if I kind of followed my brother because he joined up and I lived in a village, didn't have anybody. One of the lads went from Parra, Parra-Region. It was mixed race and he kind of had a bit of bullying and then he kind of, I was at school with him and he didn't have any good kind of stories to tell because he didn't finish the course. And so I didn't really have any people to steer to say, you know, what military unit can I go into? So I joined them up. And then when I was on the, at the end of about five years of doing that, I was like investing heavily into my fitness at that point, I was just doing everything. And I was kind of winning a lot of races. So it's triathlons of weights and running and Bergen work. And I think I've discussed that before. I'd like to cut around and find out where all the CFTs were going on down at older shop and all that lot and just bring the PTIs up and ask if I can come and go on. And towards the end of my five years, I went down to RAF St. Morgan and there was a, there was some SF lads down there. And I'd never seen anybody that had been in that unit before. And one of, believe it or not, one of the drivers or, I think it was a driver or cook or something on one of the squadrons down there. I'd been on a few exercises and I kind of knew him because we used to go on the lash a little bit together. And he was there and he said, oh, you're still doing your fizz in there. And he introduced me to one of the ESP lads. And they said, oh, I heard you, you're a bit, you're a fit and all this. And I said, yeah, yeah. And they said, oh, you got a Bergen. And I bought me a lot of green Bergen. So you don't get issued green kick really when you're in the RAF line. And I mean, there was a race up to sweet enough miles to Water Tower and back and back in, so seven miles. And they, I can't remember what the time was else, about 53 minutes or something like that, the record was with 40 pounds on. And they said, do you want to crack at that? Well, I went and did it and I'm not seven minutes off their time. To be fair, ESP lads, everybody expects them to be harder nails and fitters and fiddle, but generally, you know, they're very consistent at all of that, obviously, because it's important for their job. But I was just, I just wanted to do really well. And so I worked hard and took a bit of time off. And he, they bought me a crate of beer when I was only young, I was only about 20, I was only 19, 21, 22 years of age. And they took me helicastin, so we're jumping out of a chin at the next day, just as a well done to me. And they bought me a case of beer as well. And that was it. That was it. I was absolutely hooked, because at the end of that, he said, have you ever considered going and joining the Special Forces? You know, I'm not straight away with my reaction was, well, I'm in the RAF, you know, I do weapon handling skills once a year. You know, I'm not an underwater knife fighter. And I just expected that I needed to be some sort of a very experienced soldier before I went for it. And he said, no, not the, not the case at all. And unfortunately for me, or fortunately, depending on which way you want to look at it, I left the RAF because I felt that was the right route. And then I trained for a couple of years and then I joined two, three at Birmingham. There's a location in Birmingham. And I was the only one to pass in the whole of the West Midlands area, actually. It was just me on my own with 2DS driving up to Scotland. They had essentially, we'd ruck up on a Thursday because they'd be like two or three or four days, like exercises or training. Right, hang on, let's, Nick, I'm conscious. I don't want to get ahead of ourselves. So physically, like what do you do then? Do you have to find your nearest recruitment office? Do you do it online or? Yeah, you could, it's online. It's, there's telephone numbers, you bring them up and you just speak to somebody and they'll tell you, well, they'll ask you, are you ex-military or not ex-military? Well, experience, if you got what fitness requirements you'd probably need to have, give you a little bit of a training program and then they would kind of manage you, I suppose, over an extended period of time on what courses you'd like to do. I.e., if you're non-military, you'd have to go and do some like infantryman courses. I think it's about six to eight weeks in total, but they manage it so that you can do it a week or two weeks or four weeks at a time. So it works with your life that you've got in a job. And once you complete those courses, you'll then go on like a pre-course, which is pretty cheeky, before then, and you've got to pass that to then go on to selection. Yeah, so tell us about this. Did you have to do the pre-course? I didn't actually, not at that time now. I'd been in the military anyway, so that kind of helped me. And I didn't, I had to go for an assessment weekend. So it was essentially like, but it wasn't the briefing courses that they've got now. It was something a bit different because it was quite a long time ago. Is the RAF classed as the military? Well, probably not. Fly around. Yeah, it is, you know, there's some great people in all the forces, as you well know. I met some quality people in the RAF and there's a lot of them that are seven at Hereford now, actually. Yes. So you didn't have to do these build-up courses. When was your first test done? I mean, for me, for example, it was in the recruiting office when I said, I'd like to forward an application for the Royal Marines, please, right? I said that because my mate told me that's what you have to say, right? So I stuck to the script. I'd like to forward an application for the Royal Marines, please. Oh, Sergeant, I think he said, make sure you say his rank. And he said, all right, and son, hop up on that pull-up bar. And that's it, you know, it's training for something like that, if that's how we're going to say it, training for something like this course is very daunting for most people. I'd like to think that I take that away from them because you can actually achieve that. I think if you think, I've got to do 25 pull-ups in one go and you can't do one, you can do 20, if you can do one, you can do 25. It's a process that just takes a little bit of time and it's about making sure that you get that process right. With selection and the pre-selection, just finishing what you asked about the assessment course, people would be expected, for example, to be able to go on the assessment course. It needs to be at a level where they carry an 85 pounds running. And then also maybe do things like the bleep test and do strength and conditioning kind of assessments with press-ups and sit-ups and squat press and burpees and pull-ups and load it as well. And it's really just making sure you're capable to pass the course. And that assessment course, actually, I say it really cheeky because it is, because if you can pass that, it is a good indicator that you can do quite well on the course. But you need to be prepared for that. And I would probably suggest it's a lot different than when I joined 2.3 because it was done over a number of long weekends, nine of them, and then we'd go and do selection, as it were, after that. Whereas now I would probably make an assumption that it's completely changed and that you would need to, the day that you go for that briefing course, you need to be 85, 100 pounds strong and you need to be fast and you need to be running 10 miles in maybe sub-1, 14 and a pair of boots, relatively flat. And there are some markers. Now, for most people, maybe listening to this would go, you can't get anywhere close to that, but you can. It's just having the right amount of guidance at this time. Because what's happening, I would make an assumption and say, that what's happening on selection at the moment is people are going to the briefing course and then again, just getting hammered by like having 85 pounds put in their back and then expecting to run six or seven miles with that and then drop it down to 55 and then do like seven, nine minute mile pace, et cetera, et cetera. Because they're just not ready and they don't have, there's not many processes in place. And the normal kind of training programs when you go to the recruitment office that they push out to people, I've got to look at them. And I don't, I would probably say that if I were, when I write my plans out for people that look and do these courses, they are completely different in their progression and also where you need to be, T minus three months before that kind of assessment course. Got you. So I'll just start something I wanted to ask you then. Yeah, so I'm still intrigued to hear, Nick. At what point did you interface with this and in how, I mean, literally talk us through it. So do you've gone to a recruiting office? They've said, yeah, you're going to go for this assessment. Do you have to like drive to it? They come and pick you up. Is it? No, you'll be, you know, you have to see, depending on whether you're just a civilian or whether you'll come out in military or how long you've been out in military would be dependent on how many of the courses like infantry type courses that you need to do to get your soldier skills up. Yeah. But at the very beginning of that, you would just ring the number up or you go online and you would speak to somebody that manages this process. And they will ask you a number of questions and you would then probably have to go for like a medical and a basic. Yeah, what I'm trying to get to, Nick, is I want to hear your story, not the criteria like for people who want to join. I want to, like, where do you go for this? Are you nervous or are you like, oh my God, I'm trying out for the SCS today? Are you like, no, it's going to be easy? Yeah, so my story then, and it has changed. So just putting that out there, it has changed a lot. I went for an assessment. I booked up initially and had like a medical, I'm colorblind, so I failed the medical for colorblindness and the guy that was down there, the administrator, said, look, dude, you seem quite fit in that and you've got good history. You need to go and see if you can get it passed. So I went around the country for about two or three weeks to try and get all these different tests. And I even got one of the books to try and memorize all things I couldn't remember all the pages. And when I failed all the tests, basically, when I went back there, I said, I failed all the tests, I'm colorblind. And that's it. He went, ah, don't worry about it. And you got his stamp and he went, pachinko. Wow, Resolver. I don't think that happens anymore. So I was like, oh God, what a gift. So yeah, I started and I was on the assessment weekend about two or three weeks after that. And I went down there and it was an eight mile run. Down where, Nick? In the Birmingham area, West Midlands area. All right, to an army camp or? Yeah, it's like a quite a discreet army location. And what do you pass? There's a number of those all around the country, but for the whole of the West Midlands, it's near in the Birmingham area. But depending on where you live, it's just a bit of a cake and ass part. If you live down in Devon and Cornwall, because you have to travel all the way up. But by that, there's always a location that's relatively close to you within about an hour's driver, an hour and ass driver would imagine. So I worked down at the Birmingham, there must have been about 40 odd people on there. By the end of that day, there was about 15, 16 left. And why? Just because it was assessments, swimming, something with a bergen run or something like that. And then there was also a boot run. It was over a weekend. It was a bit of nighttime stuff. It was a bit of lessons. It was a little bit of political kind of stuff as well, just to see if you were engaging in the news, listening to the news, and you knew what was going on around the world a little bit, et cetera, et cetera. And they went through a number of assessments, strengths kind of assessments as well. And at the end of it, they told you whether you passed or failed it. I was lucky enough to have passed. Can we take it one at a time then? So the bergen run, you're saying you're carrying about 85 pounds. Yeah, I think it was 85 pounds and they dropped it down to 55, I think 54, something like that. And it was like a 18 minute, sub 18 minute two miles. So that is basically, I mean, when you're out and about backpacking or whatever, your bergen is going to be about 20 kilos, right? About the same as if you're going on holiday for three weeks. That's double that weight. So that's like when you rock up at the airport, you're going on holiday. It's like double the amount of luggage and you're carrying it on your back. Yeah, so heavy weight, 85 pounds was heavy. But it's achievable. It's very achievable. If you go to, depending on what you're doing SF wise, and then you go to the jungle, you're carrying 135, 145 pounds as last man water carrier, carrying everybody's four liter water bags. And there might be six to eight boats in a team. And then you've got all your ops kept on top of that as well. So it is probably doing that for like, quite a long time. So it is possible. I did those world records I've not been signed up by a Guinness yet, but I did those to prove that, you know, you can run that with 80 pounds or do a mouth with 80 pounds and a half mouth with 100 pounds. And I built up from scratch because I was working in the Middle East. I didn't do much running. And I did that to show people, to say, look, it's a process. You can get stronger and stronger. And it doesn't have to be insanely hard to train like that. And so don't be put off by those weights is the point. Because a lot of people are, they think I could never do that. They put 35 pounds on the back and that feels heavy. Doesn't if you're not used to it? Yeah, we're going to come on to your record. So what's the effects of carrying this weight? Are your shoulders chafing at what kind of boots are you allowed to wear and are you getting blisters? Yes, like anything, if you progress your training correctly, your body will get used to everything. People that just log boots on and go out for a boot run and put 50 kilograms on their back are going to come unstuck and they'll be an absolute clip, won't they? But if you're going to go out and run in Madison and you start wearing different pairs of trainers and you do four miles and eight miles and you work it all the way up a week and weeks, your feet don't really have a drama with it because you're progressing through, aren't you? And it's the same with bourbon work. You're back, you know, every time I go and see the physio, he says, oh, there's something wrong with your back here and this, that and the other. And he goes to after a while, he goes, oh, you got unusual back, you know, your muscular kind of areas in your back are a little bit different than most people's because I've spent most of my life with a bourbon on my back. And so your back starts to kind of form to ensure that you become more efficient in carrying that type of weight. And your shoulders become a little bit stronger. You start getting used to the kind of the shoulder straps. And then you'll start, you know, your feet and, you know, things, you know, the bottoms of your feet will become a bit more stronger. But it's just lobbing a bourbon on and going out and doing a run, you know, that's putting a lot of force and stress on your body. You know, that's why a lot of people that come to me and they just go, I've just been running around the bourbon for weeks and weeks. They might have contra fasciitis or more and more and more cast and slay issues and stuff like that. And so we're bound back to basics, same as we do when we train in anybody to become a good runner, good cross country runner, good fell runner, and then add the weight. All right. I'm looking forward to talking about this after because someone tried to overtake me on my city's biggest hill this morning. I couldn't be having that. Sorry. It was... Yeah, a good bit of competitiveness is healthy. Very childish, but that's my hill, mate. And there'll be one person running up it quickly today. It's really funny, but yeah, I like the old running. Just a quick dip, sorry. One of my good mates that I was in with, he's got like a caravan somewhere on the Welsh coast and he's a very good talented cyclist, or used to be. And at that period of time, he was coming up one of the large hills that's kind of like the Snowdonio area. So it's a pretty challenging climb. He looked behind him and about half a click behind him. There was some bloke that seems to be kind of gaining on him. So he thought, I'm not having that. So same sketch he put his foot down a bit. Look behind him again. The bloke was about 20 meters away. He was on a mountain bike. And when he came up alongside him, it was one of the blokes from our old unit that just happened to work out. And he was on a flipping mountain bike with RG Sweater and Thor. Yeah, a good dip. But a bit of healthy competition is good. That's why COVID and stuff's been so difficult for people because going out and training on your own, this is why, and we'll maybe delve into it a little bit later, lead outdoor fitness is working well because you can train with other people whether it's virtually or not, it's online in groups of people because it's difficult, isn't it? And if you go to a running club, it's 400s that you don't want to track. It's going to be so much faster if you're with other people doing them. You train harder and it's more enjoyable as well. Tell us about the swimming, Nick, because that's always, that used to be my nemesis. It's something I didn't really get good at until I was about 40 and then I swam 10 miles. Yeah, for a marine, it's not good, that, is it? People, you've got to pass this basic swimming test in the marine. So, on our... Ours would probably be similar, to be fair, mate. On our three-day potential recruits course, they just say, right, get up on the diving board and it's about, say, a five-metre-high diving board. I did the PRC, actually. And there's really many to go. It's the same sketch, mate. It's quite easy. All I would say is, and this is the question I ask anybody that comes to me, is I say, I was just swimming. Have you always been a swimmer? Can you remember being taught swimming? I can't remember being taught swimming really. I was about four or five years of age. And people that have kind of always been swimming since they were young have attempts to be very confident in the water, generally. But people like yourself that maybe learn swimming a lot later on, they always lack that confidence. They never seem as confident as maybe somebody that has always swam. And so, for those people, then maybe you need to invest in a bit of swimming and it's really building your confidence up in water with weight, maybe, you know, jump it. If you're in water, I'm not saying you just go jump into water. I'm saying if you're on one of the selection weekends for the swimming kind of test, we'll be wearing a pair of boots and fully clothed and even having a burgundy water. And it's just getting used to that. You're not going to sink. And a burgundy is a float-a-pissing device, let's be honest. It's just that when you've got all that kit, you can feel quite overwhelmed. And maybe jumping off of the high, the board with all of that kit on as well can sometimes feel a bit daunting. And it's really just getting yourself to, used to being a relatively average swimmer. You don't have to be really strong for me, not going to be going down and doing the pool stuff and stuff like that. You can go do that, but then, you know, there are other kind of courses to allow you to bring your swimming on, et cetera. But certainly, if you're not a swimmer, it still doesn't have to hold you back. When I was in 2.3, there was a guy that said to me at the beginning of the swim, because we went and did loads of stuff down at pool when I was in and we were down there for quite a couple of months, I think. And one of the guys on day one said, Nick, just keep an eye on me. Well, I'm really nervous about this. And I said, what do you mean? And he said, oh, I'm a shit swimmer. I can hardly swim. And I said, and his day job that you used to do ever so often, because in the next round, we were like on FTRS, on full-time reserve service at that point. But normally he was a diver. And I said, but you're a diver. That's your day job. And he went, you don't need to swim to be a diver, so always made me laugh, I did. But yeah, you don't need to be a strong swimmer. But it's certainly, if you haven't always swam, you could invest a little bit of training just to be able to come from itself. So how does the, how is the actual, you can expand on this. So when you hear people talk about SAS training, they always call it selection. And it sounds to us that uninitiated, that the selection is actually like the training. I mean, you've got to prove yourself through it. But it seems like the stuff you do on it is also like part of the training. So I don't know if I'm making sound, probably not making sense. I mean, proving that resistance to interrogation, for example, that's something you've got to prove you can do, be resistant to interrogation. But it's also training you, you know. Yes, gotcha. It's training you at the same time. So how is all that structured in two, three? So yeah, very similar. It's very similar in that respect. And certain elements of that, you can't train yourself. What, if you look at selection, people can go to war, they can do X, Y, and Z. They have a tendency, don't they, to refer back to selection. It's because it's a very unique course. You know, I won't lie, I loved it. I loved the challenge of it. And if I could go and do it again, I would. Because it challenges you at all different levels. And that's why it's so impressive. And that's why maybe you capture something that's a little bit unique in an X Special Forces soldier, quite possibly. It's because physically, on the attitude phase, over the hills, et cetera, you've got to not just be fit and strong. Of course, you've got to do that. You've got to be really resilient and robust and have like a level of self-confidence that allows you all on your own, time and time again to feel like you're failing, but drive on and drive on. And then you'll also be on the course where there are elements where you can't pass it. It's just ridiculous where they'll put you through things where you are just absolutely exhausted. So then you have to dig deep then and just keep going and keep going with it. A lot of people, they just go, I don't want to do this anymore. I'm given up because you can do that at any stage. And when you go on to maybe the latter parts of the course that you just mentioned, it's quite possible that those kind of courses are designed to test you emotionally. It's also physically, to a certain extent, but your emotional and the imbalances that you might have at a hormonal level are huge because you're so exhausted for an extended period of time and you're lacking in food and water, you're at a very, very low end when quite possibly you're being tested for all these different levels. And some people don't cope with that. And those tests, if you want to call them that, are there for a reason, because when you're in a war zone and let's say you're in combat and you're under a huge amount of emotional stress, you need to be the type of person that can manage that. If you've got to show any aggression, you've got to make sure that's controlled to a certain extent. And so all those kind of tests that you look at that were on selection designed to help them make that assessment of you to say, will he cope in a situation where he's all on his own and he's very stressed out and he needs to make decisions. Can he be so fatigued and maybe wounded where he can actually not be thinking about himself but be thinking about his team. Can he be this, can he be that? And those tests, they're actually really good at that. And so that's why you have a huge sense of accomplishment when you've finished a course like that. And people for years and years, they might go and serve 25 years in the SAS or something. They always kind of stay around to talk about selection. No, it's because it tests you at so many different levels. I would probably say all of the levels are all on one course and all at the same time as well. And the people that get through that, they learn a lot about themselves. Yes, and how, yeah, I mean, yeah, of course, I mean, I think one of the biggest lessons I ever learned was coming off the endurance course and I hadn't managed to pass it yet. We'd done, I think it was my fourth attempt or third attempt. And just in one moment, I don't know why, I just dug deep and I pulled out of the bag. I just pushed through that pain barrier and then it became almost like quite pleasurable to still painful, but knowing that you can keep going was a good learning curve there. But can you tell us, Nick, how long is the selection then? I mean, you said it's very similar, but obviously the full-time guys are working full-time, aren't they? So are you doing this over weekends or do you have to go away? I did it or now? Either or both. Yeah, so when I did, it was over a series of about five weekends and they were long weekends as well, like three, four days. And it was demanding. It was working up on a Friday night. I was on my own at one point, but we would drive up to Scotland and I'd get there at like, I'll pass five in the morning and I'd be running at six and I would have driven all the way up while the DS were getting their heads down in the back of the hatchery. And they'd want to be woken up by me like in a fag and put it in their mouth about 10 minutes before we got to the location. And they'd always say, yeah, we did it when we were on selection, mate. Yeah, what was that? But, you know, or going to the Breckenbeekens, we'd get there at like two o'clock in the morning on early doors on Saturday morning and they'd put us on like a re-entrant where the walk was coming down with a fence and we weren't allowed that side of the fence. We had to tie our bivis to the thing on one occasion I woke up, I must have had about like 200 kilograms of water in the bottom of my bivvy. They just make sure that it's hugely uncomfortable. You don't get any sleep. And then the next day you're on the hills all day, you're on the hills all night with maybe one, two, three hours sleep maximum between those and then speed marches as well. And then you'd come home. And you'd come home on like a Sunday night, a Sunday midday, Monday, do you train? Because you're on a recovery weekend. Tuesday, you might get a light train session. In Wednesday, you get an absolute drag round. That's a little bit different now than that. And that would be over a 10 week phase and it would be just building and building and building. And within that 10 week end phase, you'd have a number of specific tests. Certainly, there's a civilian that then out there called the Fandans, for example. That's one of them. And there are a couple of others as well when you need to pass a certain weight. Talk us through the Fandans then, because this is something that we hear a lot about. I just picture that Penny Farn is a mountain in Wales. So I actually work with one of the companies on it, actually, as a consultant. So Adelaunt's endurance events, Ken Jones. And the reason I work with them is because he runs a good authentic race, actually. It's good. It's 14 miles up over the fan, down to the halfway point and back again. And to be fair, we use it as quite a good marker. And that's why it's there. Because to carry 35 pounds plus food and water over there in a good time forces you, if you want a good time in that, to hear all the components of physical fitness. And that's why it's a good challenge. And once again, most people, they go and do it for the first time and get it done in about six hours. Within about a year or two, or train specifically for it. They're doing it in like three and a half, four hours. And there are lots of civilian events, I think, now that are doing very similar types of courses. I work DS on that one. They do SF weights one. They do clean fatigue. I just go in in a pair of boots and some survival kit, et cetera, et cetera. So there's loads of kind of events that replicate the types of things that may be on selection. And so would somebody on selection run the whole thing? Or are you run walking, or do you trot? People walk it, but they are cut off. So I think you have to get to the halfway point, a certain cut off. Obviously, I'm one of the people that enforces that. And that really is there just to make sure that people aren't cutting around the oars and getting really tired, because that's obviously when we have dramas and stuff. So we have cuts specifically for that reason. But most people, especially if they come to elite outdoor fitness, I train them up. We have an RTG, and I'm sure we'll discuss it later, but the remote training group specifically event for Paris X, Fan Dance, Commander Shuffle, stuff like that. And we, you know, I won Fan Dance last year, yeah. And Paris X and Commander Shuffle. But a lot of my people, they win it, or they get good top 10 places because they have a better understanding of just how specifically it's trained for that. So where that year one, they might have shuffled round and got round in five and a half hours. I say, look, you know, how was it? And they say, awful, it was so hard. And I say, well, maybe make it easier, you know, maybe do a little bit of LSD running and a little bit of strength work and a little bit of hill reps, all at a manageable level. So that over time, you can be more efficient when you're going over that course over 40 miles. Yeah, and let's come on and talk about these events because you're hearing more and more about them. I'm more sort of interested in for these troopers on, or potential troopers on selection. What do they, I mean, the Fan Dance sounds like it's pretty straightforward, up, over and back. But you hear about people having grid references and coordinates that they've got to... Not on the Fan Dance, no, it's all marked down. That's all marked, but what... So why, when we say, read Ant Middleton's memoir, is he talking about Matt reading and he's missed this checkpoint and he's running to catch up? Yeah, so when you're on selection, there'll be phases where you need to navigate on your own on their tests and you will need to go from one RV to another, to another, to another. And you never know when the end is and they will have specific routes that they will have for that selection process. And you need to carry certain weights. And as you go through selection, the weights will increase. So it could be, for example, some of the civilian events and I'm probably assuming that it's very similar to the tests that you have on selection, would be SF weight, which is 45 pounds plus food and water. And you're expected to carry five litres of water at 2.2 pounds each, a smock that isn't part of the weight. And let's say you carry something in your hand that is 11 pounds, which is the same weight as a weapon. You carry on selection. And so that weight is about 68, 71 pounds. Yeah, if you look at that. And you're expected to come in and I think it's four hours on the Fandans. So going to do one of the civilian events is a good way of looking at where your fitness is, isn't it? Really? Because you can go cut around and do it with 35 pounds on it. If you're doing all that in a relatively good time, then you can see how much more train you've got to put in to maybe do the SF weight. Because these civilian events do have the SF weight events and they're about 45 pounds plus food and water, et cetera, et cetera, as I've just said. So they're pretty hard tests and something that you need to have a good structured training program over an extended period of time, not just to do the civilian event, but to do on selection. OK, so we know from regular SAS selection that it's the hills phase. Then what is it? The survival phase and the resistance to interrogation. That is that. Yeah, it's a little bit of a process in the middle where you engage in, I would call it like the rustic stuff. It's hard. It's on your belt buckle. It's on your elbows, you know. It's on your belt buckle as in lying down with all of your kit on heavy stuff. It's a bit different and it's also maybe learning some of the tactics that you would need to get in and teaching the majority of the tactics. And then when you progress into the latter stages, you put it all together in a fully tactical way so that then you can be tested at all levels then. So it's a process of actually teaching you, but at the same time testing you as you discussed before. So again, with regular selection, it seems like you're doing the escape of Asian on the hills. I don't know, it seems like a week or something and then you get your captors capture you and then take you for interrogation. And that seems to be, I don't know, I'm guessing 48 hours of sort of extreme hardship. So like with everything, everything's manageable for people. You know, if you're watching this and you're thinking, okay, I'd really struggle with that, you'd probably surprise yourself. And of course, it tests you at a very kind of raw level, you know. What's it like, Nick, what I'm trying to get to? What's it like in 2-3? If you're doing this over weekends? It's essentially the same when I was in. I had to do the same bit. There was a small element at the end, which was slightly different, though I can't mention on here really, but generally it was the same. And it's really just taking you throughout the whole course to a level where you're at your lowest ebb, an extended period of time. And it's a bit of a longer process than you just mentioned, where you've got no food, minimal water and you're absolutely exhausted. Like right down to a muscular cellular level, I remember when I was on my course, we got essentially ID'd by the Hunter group that were looking for us. And as we all turned, I was the only SS bloke in that team that I was in, I think. And as we all turned and ran up this wood line, they just disappeared ahead of me because I was so tired because my build up to that had been exhaustive rather than theirs, maybe pilots or navigators and stuff like that, that had to do that part of the course, come on to it at different levels. They don't do the whole selection, do they? They just come on for that. And I was absolutely exhausted. I remember thinking then, Carl, at muscular level, I'm so tired, but you don't realize it, you see? You know, if you videoed yourself afterwards and looked at how fast you're running and how fast you're moving on the ground, it would be so much slower. And then you've got the added bits, like on mine I went to evade the dogs, I had to go into a reservoir and I went under the water just so that my head was out. And it was, I think, in about November time, it was like Baltic and I think I got, I was hypothermic for sure. And then there's a process that you kind of go through when you then possibly get captured and go into the further elements of that course. You're just a low-air, you're the lowest you are and they kind of, they add to that with a number of techniques that they use to make sure that they can test you at all the different emotional levels, which is good for them, it's a learning experience for them because they can kind of get a good picture. And you've probably seen that on TV, on the SES, are you tough enough, et cetera, for when they're showing you a very small part of it at the end, I think they've only been on that course like two a week or two weeks in a little bit. And they still look like they get some scoff down the neck and stuff, whereas when you're doing courses of selection, sometimes you haven't eaten for like six, seven days and the two or three weeks before that, you've eaten the sort of all as well. So it plays on people's minds, things like that. I haven't eaten, I think, you know, I snap my knee cap on one of my courses and you just have to crack on. And so all these small things start eating away at you and you constantly think, and I don't think I can do this and my body's in ragged order and this hurts and I think I've got pneumonia and I'm stood, maybe possibly kneeling in a field of pollination, you know, for example, there's a lot of parts of it that provide them with a wealth of knowledge about you as an individual. Nick, can you tell us, I'm fascinated to know, so when you get compromised by this hunter force and they slap a bag over your head or a sack or whatever it is, Hesse and sack, can you just talk us through like what happens then? I'm guessing you get on transport and they take you to the interrogation house and how long, how does that, I just want to hear your experience of it. Yeah, so I kind of go with parts of my experience for me. I laid up in the water for a little bit, I was on my own and the DS is trying to get to certain locations to give you a bit of food and if they can't make it there because the hunter force on them as well, they don't get opens, so I am eating for like about four or five days, like nothing and I'd like a flush of the mouth and add a bit of blood poison, I think, from up in there, like what do they call them again? There's things that you find where there's lots of cattle, I can't remember now. And I was just in a bit of a ragged order and I was coming along a woodline about four in the morning because I'd laid up and I was so cold and I was uncontrollably shaking and I thought I'm going down in massive style and I was feeling really ill and I was coming for woodline and I was a little bit delirious to be fair because I remember just slightly looking right and it's quite funny really when you look back because flying through the air was a girker like in a Superman flight and he hit me shoulder height and the next thing I know, we were down by this Land Rover at the bottom of the road somewhere and I had a bag on my head and somebody was trying to ram something up under my chin and I thought here we go, it's starting now and it was like a foot long flippin' snickers bar or something and luckily for me I've been caught by like some girker lads and they rammed this flippin' seven inch like a snickers bar down my throat which was an absolute gift for me and then that's the process starts and then you obviously, not that it can be discussed too deeply at all, but you go through a process then where they test you at a mental level and there's a number of different techniques that they can use to emphasize the stress that you find yourself physically and mentally over an extended period of time and during that time they take you through a process where they're trying to get information from you and they're trying to establish your reaction to that whole scenario, if that makes sense. Yeah, a mate of mine was telling me that when he did it, he said that baby endlessly, a baby crying and that they put you in a stress position against the wall and if you even deviated from it to try and, if you're tempted to fall asleep or ever you'd get roughly... Yeah, it's not like you'd see on the... Well, it is and it isn't. The SESU stuff enough thing and they show you a little bit of a glimpse of maybe some of the stuff you might go through but it's very challenging and you've got some exceptionally strong individuals mentally and physically that fall apart on that part of the course because they can't handle those elements very well but it's a good indicator. It's a good test for yourself and when you come out of there, you have a better and clearer understanding about what's in here and what's in your head. How many days are you in that captivity bit then? I would probably imagine that it's not more than like two or three days really that you're in that last part, I would imagine. Yeah, yeah. So when you look at these SAS programs, they're in there for about two or three days, aren't they? And they've just got hanging there. I'm guessing that there's, again, let's talk about the SAS TV programs. They seem to go without food for that period. Yeah, it's a build-up process, isn't it? You don't need food, really. It's just something that's added in there. You can train for all of this, by the way, Chris. You can, even that last part that I know I've kind of gone over it a little bit but you can train for all that. And that's what I do in part of my job, is training people for that. And you think, how can you train yourself, and put yourself through that emotional stress? You essentially go through a very small part of that when you're in the last 10 or 15 seconds of a 400 effort. It's about teaching yourself to be very comfortable, being uncomfortable, and you have to teach and gradually add that to it progressively. I eat that word, but it makes sense. Over an extended period of time. And once you start doing that, if you do the correct build-up training for something like that, when you get to that part of a course such as that, you're more prepared. You can come unstuck and still have the balance so that you're not coming unstuck emotionally. You can, body can be an absolute rag order. You can be so thirsty, because you haven't drunk for days. You can have worms, mites, you've been pollinated in a field for a few days. You're cold, you're tired. You think you're failing everything. But you can still have presence of mind to say, I'm all right, I'm gonna be all right. I can push forward. Because if you've done training hard enough and you take any self out on the hills for many hours and stuff like that, you can be in a real kind of low place, but still have the confidence to think, I'll be all right, and I'm gonna push through and keep going. So you can train for this. It sounds quite harsh when you say it like that, but I would imagine that it's very similar today than when I went through that process. And yet I found it quite hard because I had nothing to, I had nobody to kind of help me gauge on how to prepare for that type of course, if that makes sense. And how did you get out of, how does it come about that they tell you that it's over and whether you've passed that part of the course or not? But you get a full brief individually. So how, I mean, how do they get you out of that building? Do they say, come with me, Sunny, or do they say take your hood off or? The same as that, it's on the program. Yeah, yeah. When there's an issue, there'll be one individual there that you recognise that says it's over. Right. It would be something very specific so you understood. And even then, you know, one of my mates, for example, I think he's probably the only one to date. When he started the process, they said, yeah, get naked. So he got naked. And they said, put that like board a soup on or whatever it was. And he said, you know, you wasn't prepared to answer that question or whatever. And they said, no, put the thing on. So he didn't put it on because he didn't think of that too. I think he's the only person that's gone through the whole of the course, completely naked for the whole time. So you've got to play the game a little bit. You've got to have a clear understanding. You've got to make it work for yourself as well as they get what they want to a certain extent. So it's a bit of a, not a game as such, but, you know, you understand that it's a, you can't just be an absolute sap and go, and it shows you that on the program. And so as part of that, you also need one person that can pull you out of it and say, look, you know, when I did mine, I got a steer. Somebody, that person pulled me out and said, stop doing X, Y and Z. And I just, I didn't say anything. And then I was reinserted. And they allow you to do that because it's a learning process on both sides. Not as much on your side, you know, you have to go through the process. But at the same time, they're trying to say, look, you're not going to be doing loads of courses like this every month. This is probably the only one or maybe one out of two that you do during your career. And so you've got to learn from it. And this is what we're expecting from you. You're doing that and you're doing that and you shouldn't be. You know, for example, if you're nodding, for example, you know, I have a tendency to move my hands and be a little bit, as you've probably noticed on this podcast. You can't do anything like that. You have to be very structured in the way that you come across and because else it can be used, can't it, against you? Yeah. So do you do a jungle phase then, like the regular SCS do? For two, three? Yeah. I've been to the jungle because I, as part of HCR, I kind of did all that. But for two, three, no, it's slightly different. And did you do the Para course? Did I? Does two, three do the Para course? Yeah. As far as I'm aware, yeah, that's part of it. I think the whole process is a little bit different now, certainly even with COVID. So it's just been quite changeable, I suppose, for the last few years. And also, you know, I left in 2004. But generally speaking, because I also know people that are in recruitment, et cetera, it's quite condensed and it's a lot different than when I went through. And people just need to be aware of that, that you really do need to change your life a little bit, so that when you start this process, you can continue through, because if you are successful, then the expectations are that you have to do X, Y, and Z and commit to it. Yeah. And again, we're going to come on to that because you said something interesting earlier that I want to pick up on. But at what point then do you get handed your, is it the, do you call it the Sandy Berry? Yeah, Sandy Berry in blue, like your belt. I got mine right at the very end and I was in the middle of the night, it was about two in the morning and we were on an airfield somewhere. I can't remember exactly what happened, but it was about two in the morning and we had a couple of a herds and they were dropping some stuff down for us and the commander officer came over, pulled like, I think there was only about, there was only a handful of us, they actually passed it, it was eight or 10 people, for the whole of two, one, two, three in SPSR at that point. And they said, congratulations, I'm just sure I am. And, you know, I can honestly say it's the, well, you know, apart from Lytland and get married and that proudest kind of moment in my life, very unique experience in that it's all about you or what you achieved all on your own because it is a course, yeah, of course, on the course you have to become part of a team. But generally speaking, you have to go through all of that on your own. You run in over the hills with a map and compass. It's physically demanding, exhausted when you're over the hills and doing the active kind of part. Much later on, you're on your belt buckle and you've got all that kit and you've got loads of ammo and you're having to kind of drop targets with different weapons systems, et cetera. That then it's all about you and how good you are and how quick you learn the stuff on this part of the day and then put it all together for the end part of the day and extra kind of learning skills and techniques for the next day, the next day, the next day and then much later on at an emotional level, you've got to hold it together for yourself as well. So for the course, that's how I felt was it's individually, it's a proud moment for you to say, I've just done that. I didn't tell anybody in my family, I just told two friends actually but kind of in the army anyway, I didn't tell anybody for about two or three years and I think my parents didn't even know until about three years ago to be fair that I'd ever been in. I didn't need to tell anybody, I didn't feel like it, it was just it's a very individual thing to pass. Did you ever consider, can you transfer across to the, to 2-2 or do you have to do their selection again? You have to do their selection, yeah. Did you ever consider that? Yep, yeah, I did consider that. But yeah, it's one of those things really, there was a lot of people that were, as I discussed before, that were going from 2-1 and 2-3 that were just getting stand-up fails. After I left, it changed quite a lot and most of them were getting in after that because they had a bit of a change around with DS or something had changed anyway because they were wondering why so many people from 2-1 and 2-3 that were trained by quality 2-2 bloats and being told you need to go for that course. Maybe it's changed now, so yeah. Yeah, I'll get it, I'll get it. Nick, thanks ever so much again. Thank you. I don't think this would be the last of our chats by any means. 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