 Thank you. Good evening members, officers and any members of the public who are viewing the livestream of this meeting. My name is Councillor Anna Bradnam. I'm the Chair of South Cambridgeshire District Council and my vice-chair is Councillor Peter Fane. Good evening Peter Fane of Shelford Ward. May I start the meeting with a moment's quiet reflection upon the tragic death of Sir David Ames MP? Thank you members. I'm aware that Councillor Heather Williams would like to say a few words and if there are others who would like to speak then I would be happy for you to do so. Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you chair. The first thing that I will read is a message from Grenfell Chamberlain who's unfortunately not able to be with us but has known Sir David for over 20 years. It was with great shock and sadness that I learned of the passing of Sir David Ames. I first met David over 25 years ago and have met him regularly since that first meeting. I've always been well aware of his dedication to his beliefs and his constituents. The Caravan and Motorhome Club of which I am chairman is grateful for its long association with Sir David as parliamentary adviser. He was a staunch supporter of the UK holiday industry in caravanning. His advocacy was greatly appreciated. Sir David met many hundreds of members and certificated location owners when hosting the club's annual CL of the Year Awards at the Houses of Parliament. My sincerest condolences are with Sir David's wife Julia, his family, friends and colleagues. He will be greatly missed. Chair and I'll read my words. Thank you. Many of us were deeply saddened by the passing of James Brokenshire. I had the pleasure of meeting James and he was a true gentleman. But the death of Sir David Ames is one that has truly shocked us all. Sir David gave so much of his life to public service representing and standing up for people, something that all of us in this room can identify with. Sir David was not lost but taken from us. However what he stood for will not be taken or lost while elected representatives continue to serve. And like Sir David strive to make a better world for ourselves and generations to come. Our thoughts of course lie with the families and friends who grieve and mourn their losses. I would ask members to also think of a community, one like ours here, that has had the ground they walk on shattered. May they also find the strength to support one another and recover from these dark days. We all have a responsibility to encourage and promote a tolerant society. That it is okay and indeed healthy for people to have different views. That someone is not wholly bad or good for having a different opinion. We in this chamber will have robust and passionate debate but there should never be hatred, aggression or intimidation shown to those who hold views different from our own. Sir David was a man of strong faith chair so I feel it's appropriate that I should end with a reading from Romans chapter 5 power 2 to 5. Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. More than that we rejoice in our sufferings knowing that suffering produces endurance and endurance produces character and character produces hope. And hope does not put us to shame because God's love has been poured into our hearts through the Holy Spirit who has been given to us. Thank you chair. Thank you very much Councillor Heather Williams. Councillor Bridget Smith, leader. Thank you very much indeed. I won't repeat the eloquent words of Councillor Williams and Councillor Chamberlain. They have expressed all of our feelings very appropriately. Last week's tragedy affects us all, direct attack on democracy and we can't allow that to happen and we can't allow it to perpetuate. Our hearts bleed for his family and the loss for his constituents and his friends and I'm sorry that there are people in this chamber who are directly affected as they were his friends. It's horrible and let's hope we can all move forward and find something positive out of something that's just so awful. Thank you leader. I had thought that Councillor Cathcart may wish to speak but he was dialing in and I suspect he may not have been able to join us. No, okay. So thank you very much members. Okay, Councillor Clayton, please do go ahead. Thank you. Councillor Cathcart, Nigel would do a far better job of this than me as the leader of the labour group. But when I saw the news I genuinely had a sharp intake of breath at the shock of it and now working in an area that saw the death of Joe Cox during the Brexit voting and campaigning. I know the impact that it has on a local community, the local community of an MP in such a horrific situation. And I just want to echo the words of the leader in that hopefully something positive can come from this. I know that his family are already asking for unity and not for hatred and anger to be misdirected. Of course, there'll be lots and lots of feelings for all sorts of people and for people who knew Sir David personally. But I'll just echo those words that I hope something in the way that something positive came out of the horrendous situation around Joe Cox with the Joe Cox Foundation that something positive can come out of this and hopefully bring people together in some way. Thank you. Thank you to the family calling that people should put their differences to one side and work together for the best. So let's try to do that this evening members. Moving on. May I now make some housekeeping announcements including important safety information for those present in person. In attending the meeting in person we asked that where possible you wear a face covering at all times. Please also keep to the one way system in the chamber and please use the hand sanitizer and sanitizing wipes provided. Whether present in the chamber or virtually please make sure that you only switch your microphone on when invited to speak. Those in the room please note it's advisable when speaking to speak into your microphone so you should keep them close to you on your desk and speak very clearly. Those who are participating virtually please note it's helpful if you use a microphone and also please do speak slowly and clearly in case the connection is not good. Please also ensure that all other devices are switched to silent or off so that they do not interrupt proceedings. Only those members present in the chamber will be able to move and second motions and vote. Members present virtually may speak in the debate. Are there any members online for this meeting who would like to introduce themselves now? No requests. Somebody is shaking their head that looks like Councillor Howell. Please with members who are attending virtually indicate a wish to speak through a chat message in the teams meeting. Those present in the council chamber should indicate their wish to speak by raising their hand. I'll ask my vice-chair to keep a note of the order of speakers both virtually and in the room. If we're required to move to a vote and there is not clear affirmation I will state that a recorded vote is to be taken. Members in the chamber will then vote electronically selecting for, against or abstain. The result will be displayed. Those present including any members of the public observing or any public speakers are asked to note that this meeting is being filmed and live streamed and by your presence you are deemed to have consented to be filmed and to the use of those images and sound recordings for a webcast. May I remind please members that when speaking they should not disclose any personal information of any individual as this might infringe the rights of that individual and breach the data protection act. Finally may I remind members that you are required to address the meeting through the chair. Officers have confirmed that the meeting is courate and that we can proceed. As all microphones are on tables and standing to speak means projecting the voice more, in the interests both of safety and practicality I propose that standing order 21.2 that is standing to speak be suspended for the duration of the meeting. Do I have a seconder? Councillor Smith, thank you. Members, does anybody wish to vote against that motion? Thank you very much. Members, you are prepared to take this decision by affirmation. Does anybody wish to vote against the proposal? Does anybody wish to abstain? No, thank you. So the motion is passed by affirmation. Thank you very much. So moving on to item one, apologies. Are there any apologies for absence please? Thank you chair, yes. We have apologies from Councillor Grendel Chamberlain, Councillor Sarah Tum Johnson, Councillor Claire Dildonfield, Councillor Joe Sales, Councillor Alex Mannion, Councillor Judith Ripth and Councillor Dr Ian Solom. Could I ask if we also had apologies from Councillor Berfark? Yes, but he's actually present virtually so I didn't put the readers up. Councillor Heather Williams. Apologies from Councillor Graham Cone. He was hoping to be here but he's been caught up with patients at the weekend today. Thank you very much, Councillor Heather Williams. Councillor Bill Handley. Apologies from Councillor Dawn Percival. Councillor Dawn Percival. Okay, I see no other hands. Thank you very much. Declarations of interest then. Do any members have any interest to declare in relation to the item of business on this agenda? And if an interest subsequently becomes apparent later in the meeting, please would you raise it at that point? I think it's fair to say this probably. We all have an interest in this item, do we not? Okay. Item three then, audit of the 2018-19 accounts which is on pages one to nine of our agenda this evening. Members will be aware that I called this extraordinary meeting at the request of the Conservative group to discuss the 2018-19 accounts. A report on the subject has been prepared by the head of finance which is contained within the agenda pack. And may I invite Councillor Heather Williams as leader of the opposition to briefly explain why she called me to call for this meeting today. Thank you chair. And the reasons that the Conservative group called for this meeting was given the deadline set by the external auditors and the exceptional position the council finds itself in. We believe residents would rightly expect elected representatives to discuss the report. It's only right that all councillors are given the opportunity to hear an explanation, be updated and question the administration on the matter. While updating could have been done privately we believe that this should be done in full public view for full openness and transparency hence the call for a public meeting. Thank you Councillor Heather Williams. I now call upon Councillor John Williams as the lead member for finance to present the report on the audit of the 2018-19 accounts as stated in the papers. Thank you chair. Our residents expect us to provide audited accounts as quickly as possible so that they can be reassured their council tax money is being spent wisely. And I apologise that we have not been able to do that yet. With the 2017-18 accounts being signed off by the external auditor in July last year after two years of auditing, the soonest we could start on the 2018-19 accounts was last September. At that time the council's audit and corporate governance committee was told the aim was to have those accounts signed off by July this year. As you can see from the reports before you, additional resources were put in place but in particular we misjudged the amount of work involved to correct discrepancies in the council's asset register some of which go back to 2009. Quite rightly the external auditor has picked up us upon these discrepancies. The asset register is a detailed list of thousands of council owned assets such as property and lands and their current values. And the audit of the 2018-19 accounts coincided with transferring the details of these assets for many outdated sources going back to 2007 to a single fit for purpose register that was compliant with current local government accountancy rules. We reported to the Audit and Corporate Governance Committee in July that because of discrepancies found in the asset register the sign off would be delayed to October. In particular the external auditor had asked us to explain the valuation of 259 housing assets that have been given anel value in the past. So as you can see in the reports we could identify an account for all that 15 of these assets and to conclude the work we had to look for sufficient information to allow an external value to complete the work on these 15 assets. Some of this involved physical inspections. Until this work was completed and the asset register adjusted we could not proceed with the other outstanding aspects of the audit. As you can see in September we informed the Audit and Corporate Governance Committee that because of this we would now be looking at November for the sign off. It was at this meeting that the external auditor announced that it would take further measures under its powers to bring the matter to the attention of a full meeting of this council unless it received the outstanding information it required within 14 days. I'm pleased to say we have since been informed in writing by the external auditor that they have received such information and that we are on course to sign off the 2018 accounts in November. As to the remaining audits of the 2019-20 and 2020-21 accounts we are bringing in more resource and are agreeing a work schedule with the external auditor to successfully complete these audits as soon as possible and I do hope that the external auditor has given us a date of next September but I do hope that we can meet that as near as possible to that date. Thank you Councillor John Williams and do you have a proposal for the recommendation? But are you proposing the motion which is on the recommendation item 2? Yes I'm proposing the motion. Thank you very much and do you have a seconder? Councillor Neil Goff, thank you very much. Councillor Goff, do you wish to reserve your right to speak at the end of the debate? I will. Thank you. Thank you. Members, before we move into debate I'm aware we may have an amendment to that motion. Councillor Heather Williams. Yes we've proposed an amendment chair which has been circulated with officers. Thank you very much. So I believe what Aaron is in a position to present that to us. Thank you. So for the sake of people who might not be able to read it I'll just read that out which is the recommendation originally was to note the position on the audit of the accounts for 2018-19 and additional wording has been added which says and to note the position on the audit of the accounts for 2018-19 and the cabinet's commitment to resolving the issues giving as much resource as is needed to get the accounts up to date by October 2022 subject to external auditors questions and requests. Councillor John Williams, are you happy to accept that? Sorry. Did you have a seconder for that amendment? Right, thank you very much. Councillor John Williams, are you happy? Yes I'm happy to accept that amendment. So this becomes a substantive motion then. So we're open for debate then members. Anybody like to speak? Councillor Ellington. Thank you chair. Over my working life I've always found that continuity has been the most important element in any provision of service or care. It must take time to get to know all the various accounts to understand the history to know where to concentrate effort and when to ask the additional for additional resources. Also it takes time for new accountants to establish good working relationships with councillors as well as their staff. Of course it also places great responsibility on the lead member to know his portfolio in order to initiate new accountants especially interim ones who may leave without explaining their workings. I would like to ask the lead member for finance how many interim accountants have been in post over the last three and a half years when these audit issues were first raised as a problem. Mr Palmer, who was the interim accountant after Mr Collier left and before the appointment of Mr Maddox? Point of information chair. Go ahead Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you. I think there might have been a misunderstanding of the question. It wasn't about section 151 officers, it's about accountants. I know we've had at least several interim chief accountants as well so the number must be more than one. Mr Maddox, could you help with that? So obviously it was for Palmer. As regards the service in the audit we have got two interim accountants at the moment. Prior to that we had an interim as well. I'm not aware of any other interims in the other most thing. Thank you. Chair can I ask, I mean what account, I mean I'm assuming that the question is regarding the 2018-19 accounts. If the question is asking about accounts previous to that then obviously I can't answer that because I was not in place at that time. Point of information chair. Councillor Heather Williams. I believe Councillor Enton's question was how many interims have there been over the last three and a half years which has been under this? I think that's been answered by Peter Maddox has it not? For the period that Mr Maddox has been here but we don't have a figure for the period in between. I can certainly try to find that out. We can find that out and it sounds as if Peter Maddox is happy to provide that information. Do we have any other questions? Councillor Bettson. Thank you chair. I would like to ask how much extra in external auditor's fees will the council spend due to these delays? It has been three and a half years that you've been able to get hold of these accounts. I was just wondering if the lead member for finance is considering his position after three and a half years. Thank you. Thank you Councillor Bettson. Councillor John Williams. Yes, thank you chair. We have to remember that we couldn't start auditing the 2018-19 accounts until the 2017-18 accounts had been signed off and they were not signed off until last July. So we could not audit. We didn't have three and a half years to audit these accounts. We had since last September to audit the 2018-19 accounts. Thank you Councillor Williams and Councillor Tom Beigott. Oh sorry, did you want to come back Councillor Bettson? Yes chairman, thank you. The question actually was how much extra in external auditor's fees will the council spend due to these delays? That was the original question. Thank you. That will obviously be a matter of discussion between us and the external auditor's when this is finished. Thank you Councillor John Williams. Councillor Tom Beigott. Thank you Chairman. As my colleague Councillor Ellington pointed out, continuity is very important for the running of any organisation. How much money has been spent on paying off by redundancy, early pension access and gardening leave of senior staff that has led to a lack of continuity in this organisation? Councillor John Williams. Is the member referring to the 2018-19 accounts which is what this motion is about? If not, then we are here to discuss the 2018-19 accounts, that is what the motion is about. If you want to have details about other matters of accounting then we're happy to provide that information but I'm not in a position to respond at this meeting. Thank you. So it sounds as if that information will be provided if you wish for it. Councillor Beigott. Yes, I believe it was established by the earlier question that the period of three and a half years is relevant to this meeting as the period during which all this work is being unseated. But Councillor Beigott, with due respect as Councillor John Williams has pointed out, this meeting was called to consider the 2018-19 accounts. Which could only be signed off once the previous accounts were signed off in September 2020. Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you. The purpose of the meeting was to discuss the external auditors report. The external auditors report refers to previous years and also the fact that it wasn't able to be completed or even able to start till the 2018 accounts was completed. Or that is relevant because that has created significant delays to the starting of it, therefore it does apply. Thank you, Chair. Thank you, Councillor Heather Williams. Councillor John Williams. Can I point out that the 2017-18 accounts refers to a period of the previous administration that the reason it took two years was because the external auditor did not think that those accounts were of a standard to be audited within the required time and therefore they took a lot longer to audit. And as you know, you cannot audit a later set of accounts until you have a closing balance from the previous accounts. And we could not have a balance that the external auditor was happy with until the audit was signed off last July. So these questions that have been put to me should be put to the previous administration. Point of information, Chair. Councillor Heather Williams. It was the responsibility of this administration for the production of those final accounts while the financial period was of the previous administration. It was the responsibility of this administration to complete those accounts. Councillor John Williams. And we did keep complete those accounts as soon as possible but you involved an awful lot of work to bring them up to a standard that the external account was happy with. Councillor Richard Williams. Thank you very much, Chair, and thank you to the League Cabinet Member for their updates. I think the League Cabinet Member said he was expecting the audit to be complete in November. Can I just ask a few points of clarification? You said you've got written confirmation from the auditors that they've got the information they want. Can I just clarify whether that is sufficient information or are they likely to come back and ask for clarification? And if they do ask for clarifications, are we confident that we would be able to respond to those promptly and that the November deadline wouldn't slip or the November date wouldn't slip? Thank you. Thank you, Councillor John Williams. I can refer you to an email that's written to the Chief Executive where they say that they are satisfied that they have received the questions to the answers that they asked for at the Auditant Corporate Governance Meeting, which calls them to ask for those questions to be answered within 14 days of that meeting. We have answered those questions within 14 days of that meeting. I don't know if Mr Maddox has a further update on the current situation. Thank you. So we have got an update. So they have all the information but we are aware that they will be doing some sampling checking on the information that they've got. So there will be further queries and questions, no doubt, as a result of that. And that work will be carried out between now and the end of the month. So subject to that being completely successfully, we can then move to the stage of reviewing those accounts and updating all of the statements and then they will have the news as well. So I still believe we are on target to hit middle to end of November for this. Thank you Mr Maddox. Councillor Nick Wright. Thank you Chairman, and through you Chairman, my question is that given that at the Audit Meeting where this was discussed, the lead member did not utter hardly one word. As a leader and other cabinet members given the external auditors the insurance they need that the council is taking this seriously. And also the lead member for finance talked about in his opening statement talked about misjudgments and more resources. Could you tell us what those misjudgments were and what more resources he's allocated. Thank you. Thank you. Councillor John Rees. OK, well first of all going back to that meeting the reason I didn't say anything because I didn't think it would be appropriate for me to be arguing with EW in public at that meeting. It would not have served anybody any purpose whatsoever. The head of finance Mr Maddox has my fullest regard but to have challenged EW at that meeting on some aspects would not have been productive, would not have been the right opportunity to have done that. On the matter of additional resources as I said I don't think until we started to transfer the asset register we were not aware of the extent of the discrepancies that there were that have built up over a number of years, decade or so in that register and it is acceptable I think that the council should ensure that that asset register is fit for purpose and correct before going forward. We obviously cannot conjure up people out of thin air. We needed some more support and we are organizing that support but you cannot suddenly go and find an accountant that has experience of registers at such short notice. So it did take some time for us to be able to conduct the review of the asset register and to organize an independent valuation of those assets that we could not confirm had the value that they had been given in the asset register. Thank you councillor. Right, did you want to come back on that? Thank you, through you chair. You didn't give me any of your, you did say you had made misjudgments or there had been misjudgments and you didn't give clear examples of what they were and also you have been a member of this council. I don't know what you, but for many years and external auditors have audited this acceptably and signed off these accounts every year till this administration came in I think with one exception. That's all right. Yes, through you chair. I did start through you. But what I'm asking is, as a member of the council, at any previous point, him, he, Council Williams, could have challenged in an issue. Had the previous external auditors raised it in any of those years he mentioned since 2007, which they didn't, as I understand. So it's one external auditor and as we were all, you know, many of us with councillors during those years and none of us picked it up either. So, you know, we are where we are and the present administration has to deal with this issue. So I'm coming back to my point. You know, I want to know where the misjudgments are. Has there been enough resources put in over this length of time to deal with these extra issues? Thank you. That's a perfect issue. Thank you. Councillor John Williams. Well, to go back, actually, this council didn't meet its audit deadlines for about three audits, actually, before we took over. So this goes back quite a long time, actually, and having sat on the previous audit and governance committee, although it wasn't called that at the time when we were in opposition. I can tell you that things were not done as smoothly. And in fact, we were having difficulties with having our accounts audited a couple of years, at least a couple of years before 2018, probably 2016, 2015. So it's not correct to say that 2017, 18 was the only audit that did not, was not completed on time. That's not correct. Going back to, you know, misjudgments, I've accepted. We underestimated the impact of the asset register. And this came to light because we sold an asset, a stripper land, for £200,000, which had been given a narrow asset. Value. Ac in 2009. And that's what caused the external auditor to want to examine the asset register more closely. And that was not foreseen when we started in last September to audit the 2018, 19. So that's why I say I underestimated, we all underestimated the work involved because at the time when we started, and we did, if you go back to the Audit and Corporate Governance Committee last September, we informed them that we had taken on extra staff to do this. But it was clear that that extra staff was not enough to actually meet the demand when we were challenged on our asset register, which did not occur then. It was not until, I think, around Christmas that we were challenged on the asset register. So, as I say, by that time, it was extremely difficult to get additional account staff who knew, who were familiar with asset registers to help us. And of course you will also remember that at that time we were in the process of distributing government grants to businesses in the district. And that also took time of our finance team. And the priority, and quite rightly, was to do that rather than the audit, because we felt that our businesses needed to get their grants quickly, rather than divert that resource to the audit. And that's all explained in these reports, not hiding anything about that. Thank you, Councillor John Williams. Councillor Deborah Roberts. Thank you very much, Chairman. I really cannot allow the portfolio holder to get away with trying to lead us down the line through you, Chairman, of we're only here to talk about 2018 to 2019, because quite clearly the supplementary information that we have in front of us, is actually quite clearly on that page too. South Cambridge District Council, audit progress report, right up to the 20th of September this year. So, we are talking about the whole of these three and a half years in which the Liberal Democrats have been in control of this council. And I find it amazing to think that you think you can get away with saying to us that, oh, well, it's very difficult, et cetera, et cetera. It's a question of priorities, Chairman. And a priority of a public body spending other people's money should be that its accounts are up to date. It's spending that money. And if it doesn't know what it actually can prove that it has to spend, then it's actually probably ultra-viries. It's probably not legally doing things right. Councillor Roberts, do you have a question? Yes, and my question is, giving the fact that you did not know, and still don't really know, what your true worth is, or the true worth of your residence money is, and do you think it was very wise to also go on a great spending spree of buying up properties in Cambridge City at the cost of millions and millions and millions and millions of pounds when you didn't know what you actually had in your bank account? Would you do that with your private finances, Councillor Williams? Thank you, Councillor Roberts. Councillor John Williams. We do know what's in our reserves, and actually, if you look at, take this into context, the actual amount of difference involved is within the margin of error. So, therefore, our accounts, I can say quite honestly that the financial situation is, council is very firm, and we do know how much money we have in our reserves, and we do know how that money is being spent, and that is reported quite regularly to this authority through the Cabinet. So, you know, I say again that this is the delay to the 18-19 accounts has come about because we underestimated the amount of work that would be involved because we were not aware when we embarked on all the 18-19 accounts, we were not aware of the problems with our asset register. And, as I say, we are now working, because I, like everybody else, want to make sure that we can present our council taxpayers with audited accounts, and we are working as quickly and as we can to bring this to a close and to get on top of this. Thank you, Councillor Williams. Councillor Roberts. Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Chairman. Will this just be a clarification? It will be a clarification. Given the fact that you have had three and a half years in which to do this, where were your priorities? What your priority should have been to get the accounts up to date? You're like the European Union, who tried this trick for years and years and years while it's spent and spent and spent. It's not acceptable, and you should have prioritised. And I don't honestly believe that even now they are prioritising. Do you have a question, Councillor Roberts? It didn't sound like one. Are you prioritising this above everything? Because if you are, you should be putting much more officers in here. I feel really sorry for the officers. They've done a professional job and they're not being supported. Thank you, Councillor Roberts. Councillor John Williams, through me please. Thank you, Chair. Well, can I sort of... It's a bit difficult when the opposition don't understand accountancy. We have been here three and a half years, but you cannot start auditing accounts before the end of the financial year. That's a fact. You cannot... It then takes... In normal circumstances it would take us about four months to audit those accounts. So we wouldn't start in normal circumstances auditing the 2017-18 accounts until around September 2018. So that's six months or three years gone already. It then took us two years to sort out the mess. Of the 2017-18 accounts. And you then can't start looking at the 2018-19 accounts until you've done that. And the 2017-18 accounts were not signed off until last July. After an enormous amount of work was undertaken by the officers of this council to bring those accounts into some sort of shape. So we're really looking at the situation since last September. And I apologise that we didn't get it right when we said last September that we would do this by July. I accept that because we did not appreciate the amount of effort that would be involved in sorting out the asset register. Now we do know that. We have put additional resources in. In fact last September we said we were putting additional resources in. There was a report to that committee from the head of finance explaining that we were bringing in more people. And we are now on course to try and complete the 2018-19 accounts by the end of next month. And then we are putting a plan together to ensure that we can get the remaining two years signed off as quickly as possible by working with the external order. And putting more resources in to enable us to do that. Councillor Bygott, do you want to come back? Thank you, Chairman. It's a point of order. Is it appropriate under Section... Could I just ask which point of order you're referring to, Councillor Bygott? Section 3.2 in the general code of conduct, is it appropriate for the lead member to say that members of the opposition don't understand accounting? Thank you. I think it was a general comment prompted by the questions that had been raised. That was my impression given to me by the questions that have so far been put to me. Thank you. We'll move on with the debate. Councillor Bunty Waters. Thank you, Chair, and through you. Following on from Councillor Wright and Councillor Roberts, and from the responses from the lead member for finance. How many FTs are currently working on this, say, compared to 12 months ago? Thank you, Councillor Waters. Councillor John Williams. Can I defer to Mr Maddock on that to get the actual numbers correct? Because I can't absolutely remember where we were 12 months ago. Because at that time we would have been working on the 2017-18 accounts. Mr Maddock, are you able to assist? Please do draw your microphone a little closer. Sorry, I can repeat the question. Thank you, through the Chair. I was just asking because it's a critical issue now, I think, with the resources that are needed. I was asking how many FTs are currently working on this compared to 12 months ago? At the moment we've got two people who are working on the accounts. There's one person who's working on 18, 19 at the moment. They are supported by a number of others who provide information to the auditors. So we have a dedicated resource who is completing the actual statement of accounts. But then there's obviously a number of other people involved in the support of that. Now, we have got one dedicated resource who is partly on the asset register and partly on other things. We have another person who's fully on the asset register. And then obviously a number of accountants that are supporting the audit as and when required. So we have got a number of people involved in the process and those resources are provided as and when we need. Now going forward for 1920, the plan is to start the audit during January 2022. So prior to doing that we would need to make sure we have enough resources in to make sure that we can meet that audit. So basically the plan is that as soon as we've got 18, 19 signed off we get the resources in place to get the 1920 accounts up to date and then move on with the rest of the time. Mr Muddock, the question was compared to last year. Councillor Waters, do you feel that's been answered by, because last year is last year's accounts, isn't it? It is, it is, chair, yes. Thank you. So back to answers to your question, I think, is it not? It's mind blowing, chair. Councillor Shabona Battateria. Yes, thank you. My fellow councillor colleague already has replied my answer. So my question was not so, not so technical. I was just asking, do you accept this mistake? Do you really feel, do you really feel sorry about what happened? Do you think that you can, you can ask for an apology, what he, and that he, and that he already has done it? Do you think that you will say an apology to the people you are representing here today? I think if I heard you correctly, Councillor Battateria, do you feel somebody deserves an apology? Is that right? Yes. So did you have a feeling of who you felt might deserve an apology? I'm asking to councillor John Williams. Sorry, did you have an impression of who you thought was due an apology? Yes, he said that he took it under, he did underestimated that his, his work and he already said that he has been apologistic. So do you really feel sorry to the people you are representing here today in the council chamber? So are you sorry, saying sorry to the people who you represent here today? Councillor John Williams. Thank you, well I've apologised twice now. I've apologised in my opening statement and I've apologised in answering one of the questions. Which is in a public meeting. Yes, so I've apologised. Thank you councillor. Thank you so much. Thank you very much. Yes, we have Councillor Gavin Clayton online. I apologise if you've had a wait, Councillor Clayton. Are you there? Yes, I'm here chair, thank you. I'm looking back at thinking about what's being said about the 2017-18 accounts and how that ran on to a point where the financial systems were changed midway through 2018-19. So I wonder whether that decision to change the financial management systems exacerbated and made worse the condition that the accounts were that you inherited from the previous administration. But what I really want to know is, if the deadline that the accountants have now given is missed, what are the impacts on the services for the most disadvantaged residents in South Cambridgeshire if they invoke Section 24 Schedule 7? Thank you. Thank you very much, Councillor Clayton. Councillor John Williams. Has no impact on our services. Okay. This is about auditing our accounts from two years ago. This is the accounts of this council, the first year that we took the council over back in 2018-19. This is what these accounts are about. Since that period, there's been an enormous amount of change in this council. We are going through a period of transformation. As you quite rightly say, we have changed the accountancy system. We've put it onto, we're using more up-to-date software. We're making sure that it is compliant with current accountancy standards. All that takes time. It didn't help, of course, that in transferring those assets, we came across this particular problem with the valuation. It had to be done sometime. If it wasn't done this year, it would have been done next year. Unfortunately, we're facing something which we were going to face regrettably. I've apologised that we underestimated the amount of work that was involved. That's why we failed to meet the July deadline for the 18-19 accounts. That's why we're here where we are at the moment, but I'm quite determined. I know the finance team is also determined that we get this sorted as soon as possible because we don't want to be in a position of not being able to have our accounts audited. We don't want to be in that situation. It's not where we want to be. We are where we are because when we came in, we didn't take over a situation where we had accounts already to be audited, then audited on time. If those 17-18 accounts had been able to have been audited on time, we would not be in this position. Thank you, Councillor John Williams. We are drawing to the end of the question. Councillor Heather Williams. Thank you, Chair. Through yourself, before I go on to my questions, I'd like to first note the work that Councillor Mason has done as Chair of the Audit Committee. I know I've been meeting regularly with the auditors and keeping us all informed of which we are sincerely grateful, so I thought that was worthy of note, Chair. The fixed asset register has been referred to quite a lot today. Reference has been said that it came to light over a piece of land that was sold in 1819. If you go through the minutes, you'll see back to July 2018 that the fixed asset register and issues with it was being raised well before the sale of that land. I do know that, Chairman, because I raised it myself in that meeting, along with several other things. This has been going on a previous time, and the 18 accounts are relevant because had they been done quicker than the 19 and so on, as the lead member has explained, you cannot start one year to the next, so it is very relevant. We've also had repeatedly, since July 18 in the minutes, about lack of officers and resource being quoted and lack of continuity with reference to officers leaving without actually giving us their working papers and, therefore, having to redo work, we know that the ledger system to those in finance to change a ledger system halfway through a year and for a period is like nails down a blackboard, it's excruciating. We've also had succession of people, which means a severe lack of continuity. We've had three chief execs, four section 151 officers. We've had the spitting of the city service. The officers we have in place now, I could not commend enough on their professional abilities, but they are individuals with an amount of capacity, and we are asking more and more of our finance department with the investment decisions to be made. So, with all this in mind, lessons need to be learned. No more changes of ledgers halfway through, no more tit-for-tat gains. We've known the fixed asset register problem since July 18. We've known the resource problem. It hasn't been resolved. So we want to know that the resources are given and we want assurances that actually, rather than just blaming other people that the administration does recognise the lessons that need to be learned from their actions, Chair, and that they will not be repeating those, because at the end of the day, that's what we need. The taxpayers want us to deal with this issue. So have lessons been learned and will those been taken seriously or we carry on with this political tit-for-tat that we've seen from the lead member today? I haven't witnessed any tit-for-tat. He claimed we aren't competent, which actually is against the scope of questions if we were to ask him, Chair, if you look at the constitution, you are not allowed to bring into the question the competence of a councillor or officer. As I said at the time, I think it was a response to the questions that were being asked. A bit like when I wasn't worthy of a response. Is there anybody else who wishes to ask a question or speak? We'll come to the seconder. Okay, so Councillor Neil Goff. Thank you, Chair. So I think we've had a thorough discussion of the issues relating to these 18-19 reports and accounts. I also thank Audit and Governments for their work in this process and also the auditors for doing their job in sort of highlighting the issues as well. It is clearly appropriate, important and right that the council understands the reasons for the delay in these accounts. I think we have done that this evening and explained the causes of the delay. I think the report actually very helpfully and very transparently highlights a number of issues which cause this. Decisions which have been taken or were taken which turned out to be underestimated in terms of their complexity and the time which they took, which I think into the credit of those involved, that the consequence of those decisions haven't been ducked. They've been acknowledged in the report. There have also been circumstances such as the pandemic and the need to support the activities of the finance team in that area which have also contributed which couldn't have been anticipated. There's a number of issues being talked about in terms of continuity and I think my observation from my professional experience is that the important thing here is not continuity of people, it is continuity of process. In fact, if you need continuity of people to achieve continuity of process the process is a week. I think that what has been undertaken here and some of the issues which the leader of the opposition referred to in terms of the asset register were proper attempts by officers to get to grips with the weaknesses in the processes around the asset register and improving them and putting them on a solid basis. So there are clearly lessons to be learnt out of this and lessons to be drawn and as I said before I don't think those have been ducked in this report. I think they've been acknowledged and you've heard the lead member for finance acknowledge those issues. The most important thing is that the outstanding data has now been provided to the auditor and there is clarity now on the path to completion of the audit. The other important thing associated with it is the commitment of this council to making sure that that happens which has been reflected in the motion which we and I will support. So thank you to all the officers and the members who have been involved in the Audit and Governments Committee for their efforts in making sure that we do bring this to a satisfactory and efficient closure. Thank you. Thank you very much, Councillor Goff. Councillor John Williams, did you wish to sum up? Thank you, chair. I think my second dirt summed it up very well in that it has been a very difficult time for officers of this council past and present to come to grips with the external auditing of our accounts. This doesn't just refer to our timing here but the previous administration as well and there has been difficulty, as I say, in getting those accounts audited on time despite the huge efforts by all officers, as I say, past and present to get those signed off. We have learnt, in fact, at last September the head of finance reported to Audit and Corporate Governments that we had learnt lessons from 2017-18 to help us with the current audit. As I say, and I'm quite open about this, we just underestimated the amount of work that was needed to do the current audit. We certainly will not underestimate it going forward for the next audits we will have learnt and we have learnt from our current experience that we are quite sure that we get our account signed off as quickly as possible because I said when I opened this debate that we all appreciate that audited accounts give our residents the assurance that their money is being spent correctly. So we all want these accounts audited. We're not deliberately holding back on not auditing accounts. It's just that we have to make sure that they are done correctly and we are applying as much resource as we can when it's needed from our experiences to date. Thanks. Thank you very much, Councillor John Williams. So I suggest we now move to a vote and given that this is an agreed motion, are we content to take this decision by affirmation members? Does anybody wish to object or to abstain? That's good then members. The council therefore agrees this motion by affirmation as amended. Thank you. It's now eight minutes past seven and I call this meeting to a close.