 Okay, so it's five o'clock, so let's let's start shall we. So I'd like to offer a warm welcome to everyone who's joined us for this event. It's organized by SOAS, by the Center of African Studies, and by the Almas Art Foundation. I'm Polly Savage. I'm the lecturer in the Art History of Africa. And I'm delighted to introduce our speaker tonight, Dr. Lillian Nabilime. I'm trained at the Margaret Trowell School of Industrial and Fine Arts at Macquarie University in Kampala. Lillian Nabilime has since the 1990s built a diverse and compelling body of work that addresses social pressures at the intersections of gender health and community and Uganda. As she says of her work, my work uses ordinary objects, for example, soap, sieves, cloth, mirror, metal cans, car metal parts, found objects to embody a specific social agenda, agenda, namely disease, gender issues, environment that attempts to raise awareness and promote discussion, as well as moving the meaning of art beyond the visual. In 2007, Lillian was awarded her PhD by Newcastle University with a dissertation on the role of sculptural forms as a communication tool in relation to the lives and experiences of women with HIV, AIDS in Uganda. She's now a senior lecturer at the School of Industrial and Fine Arts at Macquarie University in Kampala, where she was formerly the head of the sculpture department. I had the great privilege of working with Lillian back in 2021 on the commission for a research collaboration between the SOAS School of Arts and London School of Economics on health knowledge and autonomy in relation to infectious diseases in eastern Southern Africa. And she has a very active practice. Her current exhibition, embodying social being, opens tomorrow night at Somerset House and runs until the 23rd of April. And I think the curator Basat Kaman will say a little bit more about that at the end of the event, but do go along and see that while it's there. I would also like to welcome and say thank you to our discussant for this evening, Martha Kazungu, Martha's Ugandan curator and art historian and writer, living and working between Nairobi and Kampala. She is a founder of the Najabala Foundation and not for profit organisation facilitating visibility for women artists. She holds a master's degree in African visual and verbal arts with a focus on curating from the University of Bayreuth. And she's currently a consultant for the Nairobi Contemporary Arts Institute and the German Federal Cultural Foundation. She's published and curated widely. So many thanks to you both for being here tonight. And thank you to all of us that Lillian and Martha will speak for approximately an hour and then we will open up to questions. So please, if you do have any questions, add them to the chat and we will respond to as many as we can. And then as I said, Basak will say a word or two to close about Lillian's exhibition. So thank you both so much for being here. And I'll hand over to Martha and Lillian. Yeah, as I've been introduced, I'm Dr. Lillian Navarime, senior lecturer at the School of Fine Art. I have a bachelor's degree, diploma in education, and a master's from the school from K University and the University of Newcastle. And the sculptures now I'm showing are the sculptures which I did for my masters, developing sculptures of phones from tree roots, that is cross fiction. And that was Kavuyo. And this, when I was enrolling for my masters, I had thought I'd do women, but then I realized many people had worked on women. And then the former, some of what I'm saying, why don't you work on roots. And then one day it was a heavy rainstorm. And then I'll see what have the real roots. And then I would cut them and then bring them into the School of Fine Art Studio on two tracks to the space and worked on them. That is Kavuyo. By that time I was making it, Uganda had a lot of walls, and I was seeing reptiles running from each other. For me, those were just symbolism of chaos and unrest during that time. Then there's also this one, ancestors, which is also a personal collection. This one I could see forms which were not existing. That's why I called it ancestors. And then after my masters, after my masters, I had a chance to go to Austria for a residency. And then I realized I was supposed to devote to make a sculpture, a big sculpture, like maybe four feet in 10 days. And when I looked at that look, I said, I have never worked on this in nine days, in 10 days. But then by that time I traveled with the late phab and finding phab and just encourage me to say, Lilian, you can do it. Indeed, when you have the encouragement, you do it. So I was able to devote to make a sculpture in 10 days. And when I returned, I wondered, because there we had used power tools, and when I was doing my masters, I never used power tools. I was using hard tools. And when I walked into our studio in the department, they were power tools. I said, what go. My professor didn't expose me to power tools. But maybe that also taught me to have patience with when I'm working in wood carving. And then later on, because of the experience of working with, with roots, I can work on any form of wood. Other materials which people discard, I take them on. I know like these are like poles. And then I was making wonderful sculptures along the tape women. And basically, I look at women that are beautiful. Women should not despise themselves. That is what Namuli and Namakula were meant to be. And I'm back into my studio, working using the power tools and the hard tools there. And that is the piece after finishing it. I was loading it to the school of art gallery. We had to create a trolley. It was quite huge. And I call it an angel. And that is free from roots. So I keep on going back to the roots. So that was a screen made over from a motorbike tree. And I had incorporated metal. I add metals to beautify and sometimes to hold the wood together because wood cracks. After developing sculptures for a while. In September 1995, I went to the Biennale. And then I met an artist called Rashid Yab. And that's where I had the interest to do a PhD. But I wanted a practice-based PhD and the opportunity I got was in 2000. And then 1998, that's when I also had an issue. My husband, the late husband, was living with HIV-AIDS and it was such a trying moment. I had to take up, not really, I had to get down, get away from head shape because it was too much pressure. And that time it would not talk about HIV-AIDS, how it was affecting you. And there are these assumptions that when you have a couple, both of you have. And unfortunately, I didn't have. Because of exhaustion, I told Edward I need a break. And then one colleague of mine told me, do your PhD. And 2001, I ended up in Newcastle. I don't know why, but it was the best place for me. And when we turned on HIV-AIDS, HIV-AIDS is a women's issue. Women's vulnerability are higher because of the patriarchy, the main role. Customized practices, female circumcision, sexual abuse, poverty, so forth. Most women living with HIV-AIDS have their relationship life with a naked, when their partners land their HIV-AIDS positive, which is true. And then I decided, when I read, when I got a book from the University of Newcastle, I decided, let me read about HIV-AIDS. That's when I realized I had been affected. I didn't live with HIV-AIDS, but because Edward was sick, he was traumatized. And then I said, now, let me develop sculptures for HIV-AIDS awareness. They aim to study the lives and experiences of women living with HIV-AIDS, to inform ideas of sculpture work, to communicate HIV-AIDS awareness among transgender women. To divorce sculptures that can transcend the illiterate, illiterate, and reach numeric ethnic groups in your time. To process the use of sculpture to break down taboos and facilitate discussion on HIV-AIDS and this prevention among both men and women. This was informed by life experiences of women who are living with disease and my personal experience of caring of people living with HIV-AIDS. I was also informed by literature about HIV-AIDS and factors rendering women vulnerability to infection in order to stimulate ideas which could inform sculpture. In the 20th century, social sculpture and moving beyond aesthetic to bring about social transformation, looking at artists like boys and others. And some of the pieces I made, this was the first sculpture I made relating on my experience. I made the first sculpture, which looks very disfigured. And because of the weather in the UK, it came out rotting and falling apart. And I said, I wanted, so I just needed to walk around. He hit so that the other sculpture could get, so I produced another and it was better. So it is papier-mache and backflow. So when I brought the tooth was kissing that is love and care for people living with HIV-AIDS. And then also reflected on that my personal experience with Edward and our daughter. We had had friends, but when Edward was the organized in 1998. I remember he introduced me to his, I introduced him to my parents. Many people turned up asking Edward, are you sure those are your true friends? I said yes. But then at the end of the year, he was sick and they all disappeared. During the four years I was in Uganda at that time. Many of them had disappeared from us and were usually three of us. Me, him and our daughter. So compassion and support for people living or affected with HIV-AIDS. That was the message in that wood carving. And I kept on working then because I'm a social, I'm an artist. I'm not a social worker. My supervisors found it hard, but I had to insist and I told them this is the subject matter work on. And then when I started rolling, but they were good. They just let me do what I want and then supervise. So I remember the book, then they said, lady, and you have to go for a pilot project. And I went to a pilot project in London with an organization called IVO. And I remember going there and then the man asked, why are you doing HIV-AIDS? My husband is sick and many of my relatives are sick and they are dying, they are dying. He said, hmm, then I, then she said, okay, she accepted you can work with us. And after interviewing the women, this is one of the sculptures. So at that time of 2003, the female condom had come on market and I remember making the motor and the person. So the person is the man and the motor is the woman. So at that time the female condom had come on market and so I had to nail the metal pieces inside the motor. That took me time, like three months, nailing. And then after I said, fantastic, this is a very good sculpture. And then I also interpreted the women. The women were telling me that the women in London, African women and somewhere in Uganda, and they were telling me that they had come to the UK. They felt good, but they were still burdened by the disease. And I could show the disease by the nails and the power cuts. And the lips, of course, women want to look beautiful and don't their hair, but they were still living with the HIV-AIDS. And then most of them were in the UK, were burdened by their relatives in Africa. So those are the looks which are below that piece, struggle to live. And then I kept on producing more work. Like, because I asked these women, do you talk openly to your children about HIV-AIDS? And the women said no. I said, why? It feels so embarrassed. That's what they say. And then I made these bows, and I said, when I went to the studios and reflected, I said, yeah, we should use objects in the house to facilitate discussion. So I made these bows and casted a number of them. And the material also had to be meaningful. I used cream, which is a natural material to represent the body. I had all those bows around. And some I was putting nails and color, disease. And then one has lattice, the condom used. And then some of them were telling me that they don't want any sex. So the bows are upside down, abstinence. And then also that brought me a reminder that not all the condoms in Africa, because I've had these experiences. You are there in action. And the condom bursts. So then I continued, winowing. And these were culture. In my culture, the background, I also do winowing, separating the green from the chaff. But I was also relating it to HIV-AIDS. And women, there are a bit of women to take a choice to choose their life, their partners if they have, if they can. And I remember some of these, the women were telling me that they were enjoying sex. So some of them represent the nails, the women infected. And then I was covering it with lattice. I said, oh, if you are enjoying sex and you're having HIV-AIDS, please use protection, protect your partner. And then you are telling the current shares that relates to money, because some of them say, oh, we are into prostitution. I said yes. And then I said, well, if you're into prostitution, please use protection. So those are the issues, the lives about the women who are interviewed. Some didn't have education. And then because HIV-AIDS is such a scary subject, how to make beautiful sculptures. And this one, where the host that is the most precious part of the woman, which should be protected if the woman has a chance. And then all those sculptures you've seen. I looked, I analyzed them and then I looked at them, I analyzed them. They had issues. One, the question, the reflections from the women, the women had, when I asked them a question, would you like more HIV-AIDS awareness? The Ugandan women in London said no, because their lives, they had moved on. They are tired of HIV-AIDS information. And then still working in Newcastle, the British girls or boys, and some of them I was studying with, didn't know what some of these sculptures I was making. Because they were embedded with the traditional forms and messages of African, so to say, I thought, well, my sculptures can communicate more to the Ugandan women back home in Uganda, and especially those who are less educated. That's what, that's where my thoughts. And then taking pictures of the works of the sculptures, some of the sculptures. And I remember going back to Kampala, and I had two organizations of women living with HIV-AIDS, Nakola, and we are rich out. And I asked these three men, has a sculpture been used for HIV-AIDS awareness? The women said no. I said, why? We don't know what even sculpture is all about, because fine art is not offered in many schools in Uganda. Then I went to the organizations, 11 of them. And I asked, why are you not using sculptures for HIV-AIDS awareness? They said, Livia, your sculptures are big. You cannot easily take them to the villages. And I said, what kind of sculptures would you want? Then they told me, sculptures, small sculptures, which are easily mud liable, easy to take, which can engage discussions about HIV-AIDS. I said, okay. And then I realized that three years in the UK, developing the sculptures was like, it didn't mean much. And then before I returned to the UK, I asked my mother, what kind of sculptures should I make? Well, I just asked her, what materials? And then she said, I said, what is the only material in Uganda and use everything? She said, so. I didn't think much about it, but returning to the UK, when I was making developing sculptures. And then I said, no. I realized, sculptures had to be casted. And then I also thought seriously that sculptures, most of the infections in our Netherlands at that time, were through a transaction. So the male and the female vagina, by the source. So I developed forms. And then later on, because they were literal, then my supervisor laughed at me and said, who did it? Who would accept that kind of sculpture? So then I had to make them in abstract. And then I had to look for soap, because soap has symbolism, washing, cleaning. If you're cleaning, then that means you're alive. If you're sick, you're going to a hospital. That's what I thought. And then when I also worked with the transparent soap, it was interesting. I could embed objects into them. Yeah, clear. So with the carry shell to emphasize the female form organ. The soap sculptures group. We are familiar. We don't know who has HIV AIDS. And then I had to return to Uganda, carrying my soap sculptures. And then I presented the sculptures to the women who are living with HIV AIDS. And then they picked them up. I didn't say anything. I just picked them because my one of my colleagues had warned me, what people say when you're bringing those pinuses and vaginas to them. I told him, you know, this is the only sculpture I have for HIV AIDS awareness. And when I presented them to my separate, these local people who are not so highly educated, picked them and we are laughing. So I had also a group discussion. And then when we had one of these discussions with men and women. And then one of them, the lady who challenged me, how can we talk about pinuses and vaginas publicly and HIV AIDS. And then I thought first, I told us how many times have our relatives defied us. And we don't say anything. And they are passing the disease on us. This high time we talk about this disease openly and how it is affecting us. And amazingly, the group and others also accepted and were able to discuss HIV openly. And I had focused also on women. But during my trials of the sub sculptures, the men came to me and said, don't leave us behind. I said, but this research is for the women. No, no, no, you can't leave behind. But I realized that the men had more issues regarding HIV AIDS and HIV infection. They were more open. And then the women were less. And then I realized that people get infections, because we don't talk openly about disease. And then surprising these women could talk openly how the disease had infected them. And then I asked them, what if the wave disorder is clear? I said, yeah, that has no HIV AIDS or some of these on treatment. So these were people who were less educated, but they could interpret the sub sculptures so well. And my supervisors at that time had told me, Lilian, if your research had put me at test. If your research is communicating HIV AIDS, bring evidence. At that time, Edward was leaving. And I said, how can I go publicly and tell the world that Edward is living with HIV AIDS. But I remember when I had brought the sub sculptures you were on the table when he was about to die, he just went open up and said, can you help Lilian? I knew helper without research. And that was the moment to realize that Edward had accepted to develop sculptures on HIV AIDS. So it was okay with him. So when he passed, I continued with my research. And fortunately that time, when we had the focus group discussion, I was able to take the journalist to record the story. And that was the evidence for my supervisors in the UK. As a social practice, I had some journals contributed. And as a social practice transforming lives with using sculpture, that was with me and one of the supervisors after the PhD, Sarah, Sarah University. And yeah. So, when I returned, I kept on developing sculptures as a social practice. So we had this COVID, it affected me, it got me almost died. And then through my recovery, I started developing small sculptures on COVID, the masks. And then I also had to bring in human because people you could not talk about that you have, you have COVID. I also was able to develop more sculptures after my recovery metocastings that is like one foot. And then what Paulie didn't know by that time when I responded to her call, I was very sick. And I just decided to take on her call for recovery. So there I was working also on Bilhazia. So the chart, it was because Bilhazia affects people who are around their legs. And then I realized that when I said it about the disease that people get it when they go to get water into the legs. It's the gerican and the disease deposes itself in the stomach. So people who are living with people who are living with Bilhazia have their intestines fully bloated with the disease and below the snails. So it was really telling this story through the sculpture. And then on the other side is the gambos that suggesting that if they use boots when they're drawing water then they might not get the Bilhazia at the same time. Those who have proper hygiene is also paramount for Bilhazia. And then I've also developed sculptures commissions for example that one was done in Denmark. I traveled to Denmark to make that piece in one month. And now of course I'm here at Somerset. But the works which are being shown in the Somerset exhibition are sculptures, some of like the unity. These are wooden sculptures which were devolved for the Devonshire building in the University of Newcastle. It happened at that time, 2004, the University was filling trees. And I passed by and I had the courage to ask for the logs. And then this guy told me, can you bring the estate manager a party? So can you bring your portfolio? I brought it. And then before I knew it, they had brought ten logs, huge logs to the department. Then after they made party plans back and said, only then can you make a, we want commission to do some work. We never negotiated anything, any money. And I made the, my case models for them and they accepted. And then I was able to develop the sculptures here and there in the show. Unity, I call it unity because I realized while I was doing that, those sculptures, those sculptures, after the building, sorry, after the building had finished, they invited me to walk around the building and to pick a space where the sculptures would be. And I realized that beyond the reception, it is only the scientists who are working on the environments who have access. And I just said, I have my buildings at the front. And they gave me that opportunity. I was really happy. Then later on, of course, those sculptures are there. I'm happy. But then I also had those are the sculptures and the different share. And I'm grateful to Andrew Barton because he was able to organize for them as well as the Amherst Foundation to bring them back to bring them down to London. And then I also had a postdoctoral, by the Royal Overseas at that time when I just finished my masters, I produced sculptures which I exhibited at Oxford Galilee. So these sculptures have been in the Newcastle. And I had this opportunity to show, I've had this opportunity to show them again. That is Trist. I look at Trist, it was, for me it is like the experiences I've gone through. Life is not a straight journey. I've had challenges. So, and that is the Trist in my life, but even other women go through a lot of hassles. And the chain to hold me together, I was using it to hold the sculpture so that it couldn't crack. But the ability of women to be strong, to overcome their challenges, if they have the chance. And then at that time I also produced because when I did my PhD, I also realized that I had not developed sculptures for children, for HIV AIDS awareness. But then I realized that it's the parents who should be more mindful. So at that time I used the key. The key is a symbolism that like people, the parents should be mindful about the lives of their children. And they are, of course, are using recycled materials. They use engaging the children into, if it's engaging the children into HIV AIDS awareness, but at the same time, it is the parents who should be very mindful about their sexual lives. And if they are sick to go for treatment, so that they can live for their children. So the current work, some of the current work I'm working on, which I was able to bring. It's about rumors gossip. It is clear why rumors, because it reminds me of the so many like, for example, when Edward lives, many people were able to, were talking, and we never came up to help us, to help us through this HIV AIDS at that time. But through the research, the greatness about the research, I remember asking the women, why are you so open about your lives? Then they say, if we talk openly about our lives and how it has affected us with the disease, there's no rugamu, there's no rumamongaling. So that I learned to be open at all issues which happened to me. The rumamongers, the soft sculptures at the exhibition. And at the moment, I have the Lisha Gala, it's the project which I've been running on from 2020. Before COVID, I was supposed to have an exhibition. Martha was the curator. I realized I didn't have the gallery space had been taken away. And then I told Martha, Martha, look for space where I have to exhibit this exhibition. It was a joint exhibition, and we had it in the museum. While I was carrying my sculptures to the museum, I said this should be the last time I'm carrying these heavy sculptures. I have light in Chandra, where I should do, where I can create space for work here, and even exhibit it. I thought I was going to come up with a small room. And then one of my colleagues said, Dr. Livia, today you don't have the money, but what if one day you have money, and then you are constructed a small building, a small room for your sculptures. Fortunately, amazingly, Martha gave me something like $300, which is one million Uganda shares. And then the other guy, Sehwanya, gave me $300. And then I had the courage, and I had one million. We started off the foundation for my gallery at Chandra. So for me, the Chandra, I know I've worked a lot for almost the 30 years. December will be a high, I'll be on floor six, I'll be 60. And I said, oh my God, this Chandra, I have to make sure that I have the time to work more on, I would like to work more on my sculptures. And I reflect on the number, the way I have had time to work on sculpture without any disturbance. That is when I was building my masters, and then the APHD experience, and even the time I have in the international reasons. But when I'm teaching at the university, I find it hard to produce the same amount of work, which is as meaningful as I had at that time. Of course, I develop. So I believe Chandra, whatever happens, I don't know, if I have enough resources, I need that space to display, produce sculptures, continually to develop sculptures that contribute to society. And a series of sculpture, residency workshops focusing on working with the use of lovers of sculpture and the community on both local and international. That is my house. It has taken me time because losing. This is the land we had with Edward. So he's passing. I realized that for me it was a grand house for us and for the family. And I realized I didn't want it anymore, because I had lost him. My daughter has grown. So what I need is space for to do my sculptures. I have seven rooms, which are self-contained, which has taken me some years. But so these are the rooms. Self-contained, but they are not finished. And that is the gallery space that is outside the relief sculptures. And that is the space. And if I have more money, then I can do more, we can, I can put on, raise more space for for the artwork. Of course, I have too much work. It doesn't even fit. Much of it is still in boxes, but at least I have a space where somebody can come and look at the work that is my gallery. So I'm happy that I've been able to make it. And I've taken loans. This is the space. Some of the youth coming to enjoy the sculptures. I've not opened it yet because the guy, of course I have the space, but there's still a lot which I need to work on. That is the space. And then there is Martha. I think a year ago, Martha gave me an opportunity. I said, Lillian, we are having an international exhibition. No, curator's workshop. You can use your rooms. I told her Martha. The rooms are there, but I don't have. They are no beds. You say, can you look for money? I told her Martha. I tried my best. I have a loan. I can't get more money from that bank. All she said, okay, we can take your space and only for the workshop. But the participant who have to reserve yesterday, I said, well, that was good enough. And with the money Martha raised, I was able to create, so I can hold workshops in the space. And I also, I can hold workshops. I can just remove the sculptures, create workshops for meetings, whatever. But then after I have my guide, that is my space. I still need to work on it. When you are alone, it is a strong, because many people come to my site, but Lillian has never finished. I said, yes. I'm single. I'm struggling. The elite I have is what I can produce. So I believe at least at the end of the year, I have seven rooms, but I have two rooms, my space, and any other person who would like to visit me and work. So I had a group of women, and these were women on civic education. I facilitated a workshop with them. How to develop, develop sculptures for the civic, civic issues are many, which also includes health, social issues. And then at the end, they asked me to come and visit my space and here they were, and during the space and the sculptures. So I'm glad, I'm a foundation for organizing the showcase and publishing the book and make it enable me to be here in London to share you some of my experiences. Thank you. Lillian, a huge thank you for this wonderful journey you've taken us through your career in such a kind of sensitive and honest way. Thank you so much. It's been so enlightening to see how your work has developed over time and how, how you address all of these really important concerns around health and the body and the sort of way that society exercises pressure on women's bodies in particularly. I'll hand over to Martha. I don't want to say too much because we've invited Martha to respond to Lillian's talk. So I'll hand over to Martha for her comments and questions before we open it up to the wider audience. Martha, thank you for joining us. Thank you Paulie. It was really nice listening to you Dr Lillian. Of course, many of the things you've said I have had from you as my professor at the University of Margaret at the Macarena University, where I did my first degree a couple of years ago. And so many other things we have interacted on on different professional and non professional level. It's very heartwarming to also hear you speak about everything in a few minutes. And of course, your work goes a long way, but a lot of it is influenced and really informed by your personal experiences. And I think it's a very brave aspect of your work that you're able to narrate or with all honesty, you know, has life has happened to you and your family and your close loved ones, and even have that then transcend and get featured within within the artistic practice. As you are speaking a few things were more and more clear, and I thought you could maybe speak a bit in detail about them. I was struck by the aspect of time, because in some cases you insisted that, you know, you had a deadline of 10 days for and in some cases you had, you know, seven years or three months to do something. And I wanted you to kind of speak to us about, you know, the time aspect in your process of making art. Is it, does it influence to a large extent what comes out in the process, or it is always has to be, you know, influenced by whoever is a commissioner for whatever you're doing. It depends on two aspects. If it is the commission, for example, you saw the work, if it is a commission, they have deadlines. And residences also have deadlines. But it's all the, and if it is academics, they also have their deadlines, but when it is academic, like the masters and the PhD, the masters was like two years, developing a body of work in two years. The PhD was developing work in a period it would have been four. You know, it was supposed to be three years, four, but Edward's death made it longer, because I had to overcome the grief and the loss. So, but then what I enjoyed most during when developing the sculptures for the masters and the HIV AIDS, I had time only to concentrate on the work. And then that means, and the PhD was excellent because I could read, I could go to the galleries and look at other artists, how they had worked on HIV AIDS, I could make references. And I enjoyed looking, in fact, I enjoyed my PhD, I could move to gallery, I would see the work of Felix Gonzales was one of my best. And you know, who do you use online materials to express HIV AIDS, like for example, the streets, I went into this gallery, and I was seeing streets, and they were telling me, eat as much as you want. I picked and enjoyed. And then as I come up, they say, oh, this is how the disease is destroying my body. He engages, you eat, you eat. Then after he is telling you how the disease was affecting his life, the loss of weight. So there was a lot to learn. But then when you are busy here teaching, you don't have time to read and even go to galleries, but in Uganda we have limited, we are limited. The opportunity I had in Newcastle was amazing. I loved what I was doing. I think that's why I was able to come up with powerful works. And in fact, teaching as well as producing is also has a limit. I wanted to produce more sculptures on HIV AIDS, and one of my colleagues was very upset with him. He said, oh, the work he produced in Newcastle was too powerful. What he didn't realize that I didn't have that time to sit down and produce more work. And those are the challenges I have gone through. But if it is a commission, of course, when it is a commission, like there's a big sculpture was standing and then there was a gentleman. He took the page for me to go to Denmark, produce that work in one month. And I would take time, it was at the sea. I could go and enjoy the sea. In fact, the guy at one time panicked and said, but when you ever finish my work, I told him, don't worry, I'll finish it. And because he had given me space, I was happy. Within one month I had developed a huge piece for him. So it's the time, the facilities. I think some of the students felt, I've seen it with my students as well. But they are not fascinated. It's very hard to come up with good work. Thank you, Dr. For answering that elaborately. The other question I had was about the amount of symbolism in your work. So in my essay in your book, in your first monograph, I caught what the art historian, the late Siddiquist first said that Uganda despite having one of the oldest art schools in Eastern Central Africa stays behind the radar of, you know, international collectors basically behind major mainstream media in the arts. And she was explaining this or giving different reasons, but one of them saying that the artists are so engraved in the local traditional symbolisms that people from other places can relate to them. You know, she was mostly speaking about even the Uganda or the Uganda culture traditions. And also in my extension in your work, there is, as you're explaining how there was a disconnect between what the Ugandan in the UK could relate to the Ugandan back on ground and all the back and forth in your research. And the processes that I wonder for you, does it, is it a worry at any point when you're, when you're having all the symbols in the work that it can be understood, or for you that it is about the theme or the idea you want to put across that presents all those barriers. When you're producing work, what I realized about the PhD. Is that you develop a body of work. So, who in fact now when I'm making work, who, who benefits from the work. In fact, I also keep on that, asking the students, who benefits from the work. So that means, if it is to benefit the people you have to put it on test. And for me, I developed the work at that time and took it to the people. Fortunately, they were able to relate to it and respond. But I never engage them into the work into developing into the making of the work. So I still have, I feel that if I have time, if I have resources, I would like to work again, continue working with HIV issues, as well as involving people and see what their thoughts would be what ideas they can come up with. So it is a two way. It depends on the timeframe and even the people who you are working with, or what you want to pass on. For example, like the sub sculptures. I was excited about the sub sculptures and how people were able to relate to them and their disease, but I could not continue with the sub sculptures, because the sub material is not producing Uganda. And after I realized, oh my God, this is a big mess. Because I had even taken the efforts to register the sub sculptures and they were made for the women so that I could massively produce them. And then they would help them, they would sell them and overcome their poverty. And the sub material can't be used. So I need to see that maybe I'll have funding after my, after this, after 60 and start continuing the HIV AIDS. Oh, God, okay. All right, so I'm coming close to the end of my questions. The maybe second last or last depending on on how we're dealing with time is, is really about your personal experience. So as you've taken us through almost, I think 90% of your work in Virginia is from a personal experience, you know, from, you know, losing your husband Ali to even now the work that the recent work you just told us about the rumor mongering is, you know, kind of has a backdrop to that experience. I want that in this, in the progress of now establishing a permanent building in Chandra to also address social, social, social, you know, problems of Uganda being one of the youngest countries in the world with, you know, 30% no more than, you know, more than 50% people below 30. Is this, do you feel the, do you feel the obligation to intervene on a personal level or is this something that just happens organically within your life as a generous person or like what you draw all this inspiration to do all the things that you're doing. I think maybe I have to, I think I should say that I was, sometimes I think that I'm still alive for a reason. God, if God may spare me for a reason. And then I know that whatever I do should benefit people humanity. The word has been, of course, I've been I've got a lot of support, especially as I have moved on. And then I say that I also should also give back to others. I also support others through my art, through education and through teaching. I don't know if I answered you well. But you know that in a world of a developing country like the one we live in in Uganda, there are so many challenges on a personal level from, you know, unemployment to disease and lack of hospitals and infrastructure. There are so many possibilities for an artist, you know, to intervene. And yet, throughout the 30 years as explained, you're very passionate about the time you spent in Newcastle, because it also allowed you the space and time to work on this topic without any rush or without any constraints. You know, and yet, even when you leave this Newcastle setting back to you, then that you continue to be inspired by addressing this kind of social, social, I don't know, problem. And so my question was towards that. Is it like a personal obligation that you feel with something that just happened for you very organically? Maybe the question is mostly also about, you know, like, how do you, like, what sets the pace for you in your practice? And maybe it should go back to, like, process, like, where do you start? Is it, because for so many women artists, you talk about how you also wanted to address the woman in your work. Is it an obligation you feel, or is it something that just happened organically in your practice? Maybe. Is it organically? No, I know that whatever I produce, whatever affects me comes through into my work. It is a personal experience, or how to address issues that are affecting me, but at the same time, at the same time, I realize that I'm not alone. Others are also affected. So I produce, so I just continue developing, because the Lugamo, Lugamo is not only about me. Lugamo is, for example, I don't know enough in Uganda or well in my community, there's so much Lugamo. Lugamo is bad for us because people talk about you and they don't come to help you. And then you are struggling, and we've lost so many people. We lost so many people in HIV AIDS, just because people did not want, of course, the stigma and what have you. And they realized, for example, I had a friend who worked in the city council and were HIV AIDS treatment. And when I went, I told him, you know, we have this issue of HIV, say, Namanya, that I knew. He knew. So they were talking behind us. And I said, then he told me the city council had the drugs. I told him, really? Then I asked him, really? You kept quiet? And then he knew that there were antrovirals, which would help. Fortunately, I didn't have HIV AIDS. But how many people were dying and yet the drugs are there? All we need is support for one another. So I know it touches me, but I know it also touches whatever I do, also touch others in different ways. Yeah, maybe for the non-Luganda speakers, Lugan means Rumamonga. So she was referencing to that work, which is one of the most recent body of work, which is, I think, ongoing. Thank you, Martha, for your being a great support to me. Thank you, Martha, for this. You're really kind of useful and provoking questions. Did you have any further questions for Lillian, or are we ready to open up? I think we are ready to open up, and should the audience be quiet, I could ask some more. Okay. We do have a couple of questions in the chat. And I also would love to ask a question if there's time, but let's open it up now. So we have one from Alexandra. So I'll read Alexandra's question. I can see somebody's also had a hand up. And I'd invite, please, all of the attendees to add your questions to the Q&A box that you'll find at the bottom of your screen. And we'll get to as many as we can. So let's start with Alexandra's. She says, Dr. Nabilimi, thank you so much for your amazing presentation. I'm curious to ask, what do you think are the biggest challenges for African female artists on the contemporary art scene? We have this. Fanny, for example, I teach girls and few continue practicing because they don't have the money, the sources. And many, when they get married, their husbands don't allow them. So me, I was just fortunate that the husband I had was supportive and he had interest in what I was doing. So he was willing at all times to be there. Whenever I would say something, hey, Edward, I want this. Oh, and I was struggling a lot. Oh, there's this exhibition, there's this workshop. All we could do is just say yes. And then he drove me to the airport and back in few husbands would ever allow their women to move to and fro like I did. And most of my friends were men because at that time it was more the main working. So I could let with easily with the main because I also had to make sure I wanted my to progress. So I'd work as they, and then at all the male friends I had where it was friends. So I had the opportunity that my mind accepted my friends, and even whatever I wanted to do, but not only. So we in a patriarchal society where the man rules. So women find it hard. But eventually through education, I think, men also can should realize that if you have a female artist, and she's earning. Then that means you have a mother at home, if you can do the work at all, as well as caring for the babies. That is also good about it. But finding is a support for the women is really tough. And that is the reason why I have I want my change a space, the ability if I have a chance, I can, because we have women were finishing the university education, and they're not continuing. And this year, of course, over the years I've taught and I can continue asking them, please, can you come? Can you practice? And then they tell me, madam, we don't have the findings, we don't have the money. If I have resources, I would invite them into my space and work with them so that they can improve on their profession and become excellent in their production. Thank you, Lillian, both you and Martha are doing really active and dynamic projects to support women artists at the moment. And I don't know if Martha you'd like to add anything to that to that answer, because I know obviously you're working with in this field as well. Yeah, I think we would need a whole talk on the challenges of women artists on African continent, to be honest, because Lillian just talked about, you know, what happens after marriage, and which is one of the most important aspects of an African woman, at least as a social construct, you know, marriage and family. And that has been, of course, a big challenge for many women artists that not only they even lose their names upon marriage, they also lose their careers because it's just impossible in many circumstances to do anything more. But beyond even just the marriage, you can talk about things like access to opportunities, even residency and travel, because you know when you have a child or the mother, it's impossible suddenly to go anywhere and no one is willing to pay two flights, neither for accommodation nor for, yeah, so it's the women artists face enormous challenges, mostly funding acceptance, and also because of the patriarchal systems in many African cities, even when they're included in exhibition, they still excluded somehow because you find themselves in the the darkest place in the exhibition space, or, you know, in the less conspicuous space in the exhibition space. So this is actually how the Diabola Foundation was launched was, you know, to answer these questions and still, you know, in 2023 we are very much, I don't know, challenged, asked why women exist, because if I'm not willing to understand that women artists deserve the rights that men male artists do, and that is first of all mental but then it goes into small small activities in the actual that just suffocate the work of women artists. Okay, yeah. Thank you, Martha. Yeah, and thank you both for all the work that you do in this in this field. I'll open it up to the next question, I think. So we have a question from Samuel Professor Kasule. He asks how do you merge your original concept of roots with the current work on COVID and HIV. I think, when I was developing those captures, they were huge. The roots are huge. And I remember not working with the part tools. So that means it, they trained me to be resilient, to be resilient to, how should I say, that I had to, I had the will to work on whatever it takes to finish. them. So that means, when I'm when I get, when I get started on a work, it has to finish it, whatever it takes it to be, unless I'm sick or dead, but all my works, they can take sometimes a year, seven. But I finished them. I think it is the patience to concentrate and work and produce. Right, so sort of process technique rather than the concept. I mean, would you say that the concept of roots is something that you can use. I developed the patience to work on issues. And I think it has also applied even with people with the time. Edward, I had to, you know, you know, of course, the main thing that this is part of that training I had the forgiveness. It is when you're working, you want to see things get better. I, because this man had was had a very good side of him. He encouraged me in my thing. And when he felt sick, I said, I never get him. I said, okay, this is an issue I have to run. I cannot abandon him. And it was like, he was a project as well. But it was a time one. Yes, so the questioner says, where he's responded again, he says, but isn't roots also at another level, the concept that allows you to draw from your indigenous sources and social contexts. So did you, I mean, did you understand your root sculptures in that sense in the sense of sort of being rooted in a landscape or in a culture. The roots. I beg your pardon. Um, so Samuel Cassouli is asking, if you'd like to expand on this on the idea of roots being a concept that allows you to draw from your indigenous sources and social contexts that's the terms that he uses. Would you like to speak on that. I mean, did you understand when you're for your root sculptures did you understand them as kind of a reference to a connection to the to the earth to the soil. Were you sort of exploring that aspect. Well, I think when I was working with the roads, because these were discarded materials, which were meant to be destroyed. And that's what happens. But when I picked them. And then Uganda is losing a lot of its trees, its environment is being distracted destroyed. And then, like the roots. I was able to to work on them and then for me when I when I worked on them. It was really transforming them into beautiful forms, which are kept which can be kept with a ring source of income. It was generating income. No forms that can be preserved for the future, because some of the roots I have the sculptures I have. I don't think we ever have a chance to have those such interesting sculptures if they are the forest I've been a race. Because, and then it shows you that roots as they grow, they find around a lot of obstacles in the ground. So as we humans, but then they go against them. When they go against those rocks, then that means they become strong. Similar in fact now I'm relating it to my life experience that I've had hardships with people. And then I don't confront them. I find how to maneuver around them. Similar in fact now it's like seeing that what the roots do. Sometimes you do things unawaresly, but now in fact now when we talk about the roots, it is the life experience I've gone through so many obstacles, people stopping you going further. And then you can confront them and say, why have you doing this. All I say I take it in, and I find another challenge similar to the roots, they go beyond the borders, and they come out as powerful. This is quite common in your work of the twisted of twisting if you like can you mention this. And I thought that was a beautiful analogy for the kind of strength with which you approach the turns that life gives you. I thought that was a beautiful analogy, and I suppose you could continue that into the analogy of a route, and I'm giving you strength and grounding you. Yeah, life's twists and turns. Thank you. We all we have another question from. Yeah. Your work is deeply rooted in the ethnography of the begander of central Uganda. As far as I know Lou Gander is a euphemistic language, and sex is really discussed in public. Considering that you deal with taboo subjects. How have you been able to make Ugandan audiences receptive of your work. Are there scenarios that the sex symbols in your work have been criticized. Amazingly, no one has ever confronted me about those penises and vaginas. The priests, the clergy would have been the first people to say, you are embarrassing us. And remember when Edward had died, I had these sub sculptures. I came to my house, and I just brought the box of sub sculptures, and I presented to him. I just told him this is my research. And the priest, oh he told me a Catholic priest. Oh, these are beautiful things. I said, yeah. And he said, but you've been doing your research in Kampala. Why don't you bring it down to the local in the villages in the village to my parish. And that was something like 50 Casano way. And I took them. I took the sub sculptures that is the discussions you saw. And the priests were, of course, they never came out in the group discussion, but they sit, they were seated behind. And then they said, after the end, they said those sub sculptures are powerful, you should bring them to the schools. I don't know whether it is the story behind them, but I've never been confronted that I'm talking about taboos and sexualities and vaginas often. For me, I talk because the disease affected me. And I talk about it through my sculptures and open. No one, no one. If they do, then they are doing it behind my back. So they look up room among them. They were accepted me. My daughter said, yes, my parents, my mother said, yeah, because I had to seek the opposite if they were okay with me to go public. They all said yes. I had to ask my daughter, Sharon, is it okay? She said, mommy, it's okay. They're doing important work, aren't they? The symbols, it's not, you know, they're there for a very serious reason. So maybe that's why it's sort of understood and accepted that, you know, there's a very important intention behind your work. When you have some of the fall in sick of HIV AIDS and you see them, how the disease progresses among their bodies. Yeah, you know what it means. You can't see somebody who had flesh on and is dying like this dying skeleton. Really, for what? No way. We have to talk and be open about these issues. We have two guests with their hands up. I'm not sure, Angelica, if we're able to turn on attendees' cameras and unmute them so they can speak. Yeah, it's up to you. I can do that. Would you like to do that? So this one just, they haven't given their name. So, oh no, they put their hand down. I love the dog. Okay. Samia Professor Casule, would you like to speak? You have to unmute me. Yeah, I've unmuted. I must say I enjoy the presentation. It's quite interesting and very provocative. I'm aware of her work, of course. She knows I'm quite aware of her work. And I think that's why I was asking about the roots. And I think she's asked, she's eventually answered the question when she said that on reflection, it looks at the roots as they negotiate their way in the ground around stones. And that kind of resonates with her life and what she's gone through. And also you do mention the twisting, which is quite good. I think when we talk about the twisting and the kind of metaphor that she uses, I found that quite exciting. But I think at the same time, the original person who taught her to use roots for a sculptor, we used to call him Masaango because I knew him, I knew that Professor Pat. I think it could have been double edged just for you to use the roots, but also to know that it's the roots that will lead you to make you anchored in what you do. Thank you. Thank you Professor Casule. Wow. Thank you for being around. Okay. And I think I'm also powerful because of the Musaango also gave me the chance to join the School of Fine Arts. I also gave me a lot of encouragement, but I also had a very good professor, Professor Naginda, who taught me my masters, and then also can't forget the good teachers I had in fine art at HSC, and Oliver, Mrs. Mukambi, Josephine Mukasa, and then there's Mrs. Suluwa from Cali, so I've been fortunate. I've had good teachers and even add on the supervisors and the community of the Newcastle Fine Art Department. They all supported me in the work I was doing. They have all supported me as their family. I'm just fortunate and I'm grateful. I wonder if I could ask a question please, Lillian. I mean on the work that we did together, the project that we worked on, but also this I think this is something that comes up through all of the work that you've talked us through tonight. I think it's a question of how what's the intention of your work. So, from from many angles you're working in a sort of field of health knowledge and a field of public health, no, and thinking about education and actually kind of bringing about social change and good health, good public health through your work. But of course you're also working in this sort of field of academia, you know, teaching in a university and working also in kind of gallery practice, also working in contemporary art practice. So I wonder for you how do those different worlds sit together? And what would you kind of summarise as the main intention of your practice? Who are you speaking to with your work? When I'm developing, I think when in the early days of my practice, when I was doing the masters and after, I was developing beautiful works at, of course, which is beautiful and which attracts people to enjoy. But when you have issues, then when I had issues and even the issues I've had over the time, I realised that if I'm an artist, the work has to be meaningful. It gains more value. When it is touching on other, when it is carrying a message through, whether political or social, and then the academia enables you, grounds you to read and find out what others have done. You should not repeat what they have done. Go ahead, go a mile away, an extra mile away from what they produce so that your work can be more richer. It is also good to know what others are doing. That is really research. So academia and production are very important in the production of artworks. We have one last question in our chat box. So I'll come to that unless anyone else has any further ones. So this is from a guest who's not given a name. They say, what has been your most memorable experience as of now and why? So maybe we'll make that the last question and then we'll hand over to Basak. My most memorable? Your most memorable experience as of now and why? It was the sub sculptures fighting taboos, talk openly about issues regarding sex, which we are not talking about openly. I couldn't believe at that time when I was holding this. My colleague was telling, how can you bring these witnesses publicly? And I took the sub sculptures, they were embedded with objects, sickness, death, disease. And I put them on that table and waited to hear what these women were going to say. And the women picked up, ooh, penises and vaginas. And then that's when I felt relieved. And I said, okay, penises and vaginas. How do you relate to the disease? These women were not educated. So they were half educated, but they were able to relate to the sub sculptures and the disease, how it had affected. One of them said, look at this. This is how my vagina looked like when it had so many sawers. You know, for me, even I had not heard about this openness publicly. She was not talking alone, there were others around her. And for me, that was one of the best experiences I've had. And even for Edward, he kept quiet all through. He never said anything. But towards his end of day, he gathered the energy to tell the young men who had come to see him. Can you help Lillian? Can you help Lillian? Because the young men kept on asking, oh, when are you going back to Newcastle? I cannot go back to Newcastle when Edward is still sick. Yeah, I mean, that's really powerful the way this, you know, your work has opened up those conversations that would not have happened otherwise, that openness. Yeah. Martha, would you like, do you have any closing remarks before we hand over to Basak to just tell us a little bit about the exhibition? Maybe my closing remarks would be, you know, towards Lillian's next step, because she was very clear about, you know, how the experience in London in Newcastle for her PhD was rewarding. And now she just said that she's approaching her retirement, and she's kind of preparing for that phase with this new space, which as you saw is a very tranquil and prospective space which should allow for dialogue, good discussion and residency, even just downtime. So my, maybe my last remarks would be towards that, how, you know, how she's preparing for that phase to make that happen, because of course, as a professor at the university, she explained, you know, how it's energy draining to teach as well as, you know, keep up a practice actively. But now in the next phase, she can, I think, anticipate time. Once again, like she had 20 years ago to, you know, to think more deliberately, but also freely to, you know, maybe make new work or maybe revisit some of the loose ends from the project she's done. Yeah, so my question, my last, not really question, but Trima could be towards that, that make the new phase, how she's trying to make that happen. I think you're on it. It is tough. It is a tough experience for me. Shall we come back to Lillian? That was a difficult question. Perhaps we could move to Basak, who will say a few words about Lillian's exhibition and then we'll come back to Lillian for some closing thoughts perhaps. I just want to say it has been wonderful to have Dr Lillian here, the way she can articulate her work and her trajectory and her openness and her vulnerability has been really touching to observe in firsthand. I believe everyone is very emotional at this point in this room. I just want to say a few words about Alma's Art Foundation. We are a fairly new foundation, we've been active since 2022. And we want to highlight and celebrate and champion works of contemporary visual artists from Africa and it's diaspora. We also include artists who have had impact and resonance to the current production and future production but who have not been maybe given the platform and the opportunity and the exposure to not just show their works but also have their works recorded, presented through books and publications and films so that future scholars can see them, the public can see them wherever they are in the world. So what Alma's does is produce films about these artists and publications and commission writing and commission photographs, commission African artists working in this ecosystem so that we can support the whole ecosystem and support the artists. I'm very happy to host Dr Lillian for this showcase, which is in G16 Gallery 16 in the new wing of Somerset House, please do come by it's only on till next Sunday. And I would love to have I would love to extend the sincere thanks to so as they have been wonderful. We just called them and said look we're hosting this artist, can you please organize a talk for us and they're like of course we would love to so thank you so much for your cooperation and your help in this. I would love to thank Martha because she has been fantastic throughout this whole process she wrote an essay for us she curated the works that is going to be included in the publication and she has been really helpful in encouraging all of us and getting Dr Lillian to this platform in a way. Thank you all thank you to all the participants and we look forward to seeing you at the exhibition. I believe Dr Lillian can come back in, but thank you everyone. You're on mute. Martha has asked, I have challenges. And you know, you're so you're coming towards retirement. I should be an associate professor. And that means I can continue, continue teaching. But I don't know I started working on my application. It's like before COVID. It is a tough experience so. And then I remember when I was reading I was telling my boss you says your application I told her Amanda. I worked on this application before COVID and when I got COVID I gave it up. And she says you have to work on it I said yes when I come back I'll work on it. But I think what I enjoy most now is to continue developing the work. Being a professor has a lot of money. So I'm divided, you know, I'm alone and then with a place you've seen change is a big space. And one of my professors will be said Lillian you have to you work you get you be well if you are having as a professor as well as working as Georgia. And the professor doesn't realize that I'm all alone. You're struggling to teach you're struggling with Georgia. I don't know. I think sometimes I worry a lot I worry, I worry but then I say, God has a way for all of us. I think we know Lillian that you have the strengths for whichever twist life takes next. And we wish you, we wish you luck with it. I'll hand over to Angelica to just say some final words but thank you everyone for being here. Thank you so much Lillian for this wonderful, incredibly honest and sensitive exploration of your work it's been really insightful. And thank you so much Martha. She can hear you but she just coming in as discussant. And thank you Angelica as well. Thank you everybody. Thank you so much. It was a very, very emotional and fantastic discussion. Thank you everybody and we look forward to seeing the exhibition. And thank you for the audience. Thank you so much.