 Llywodraeth i'w ei ddweud i'r ddweud y flwr nid. Mae'n meddwl am 15 o'r 15 o'r ddweud, mae'n meddwl ymgyrch yn digwydd, a ddwy'n meddwl gafodig, a'r byddiol yn cael ei ddweud, wedi'u cwm ni'n gweithio eich llwythau o'r ddechrau ddim yn ymweld, felly byddai'n bwysig yn cael eu ddweud. Dyma'r hynny'n symud o'r ddweud y flwr? Mae'n ddweud â'r ysgrifeth, mae gennym unig o'r ffordd geiru. the DPP here, but is there something that somebody wants to raise that Dr. Meir would be willing to, yes sir. I will just say who you are if you wouldn't mind. Brian Cymru, from the English Chancellor. Thank you very much for your presentation, for your leadership on the issue and the Commission. It's unbelievable that somebody so articulate is crying what somebody was working in the area feels strong about. I'm just wondering if I have a general question about the context of the migration situation that's going on in Europe at the moment and some of the measures that have been taken, such as the EU-Turkey deal, for example, about the focus being on as quickly as possible of repatriating people back to Turkey who are not seeing them being genuine asylum seekers and as well as the kind of suggestions around some NATO presence between Libya and Italy as we've been deterring the votes to send them back to North Africa. Would you have concerns in those kind of situations that anybody in those, votes or anybody in those kind of situations who may be victim to trafficking are never going to get detected, they're never going to get kind of seen that very quickly can turn around and send back into a very difficult situation and the focus is on deterrents as opposed to assistance or identification? I actually think that's a very straightforward answer because I don't need to politicise that. I have concerns that victims of trafficking are not identified anywhere in the EU as much as they should so of course I have concerns that when you have a huge influx of people irrespective of where they come from, where they go or where they might end up to, a lot of them end up not being identified and we all know that if you have people who are extremely vulnerable then the possibility of them being used by exploiters is higher but I can reverse the question and ask you how many of them are identified at the entry point when they enter the EU? We have identification guidelines for border guards, for consular services, for migration officials etc. We have extremely good NGOs, we have very good police services who know what a victim of trafficking looks like. You know, hint hint, I don't know which country I mean. That's a good example. That happens all over the EU all the time, it's not just now. So I will tell you that yes of course I have concerns but they're not any different to the concerns that I would have for people coming in or the concerns that I have for people not identified who are EU citizens within the EU. And in fact we've been talking about, I want to just maybe focus on one issue which is on child trafficking. For the last five years in this strategy we've been focusing on children so much, a lot of deliverables, a lot of work talking about child protection systems. The minute that someone wrote somewhere in the press that there's 10,000 children that may be exploited sexually from third countries now into the EU it became a huge issue, it is a huge issue but it's not a new huge issue. The fact that children are exploited for sexual, their traffic for sexual exploitation is not new at all. What at least this has done is that it has highlighted the plight, the horrifying situation that children find themselves into. So I think what we can do is use this as a momentum to ensure that what we have promised, what Member States have promised to do, what they have put together to do, they implement. And I think once we implement what we have in place, I'm not here to give you some big glory, oh yes let's do something else. No, we have everything that we need to do. I don't want to bore you with the different criteria and guidelines and publications and whatever we have. We have funding available. So who's going to do it and who's going to ensure that it is being done? Would it help Maria if when people are being processed now through this process of Greece versus Turkey on the EU initially there's a big emphasis now to see if anybody is a terrorist and has been slipped in as it were into the system. Would it help if there was more emphasis put on identifying people who are trafficked that it becomes an issue? Last week we had the Minister for Home Affairs from Malta and Malta began to get those boats landing on their seashores back in 2002 and the rest of us in Europe kind of ignored it for years and let them get on with it themselves. There needs to be some kind of particular focus to wake us up and sadly it was the picture of that little three-year-old boy on the beach that let's be frank made us all realise that there were people dying every day on the seas trying to get into Europe. So maybe if an effort was made to identify as people are applying for asylum or being processed in Greece or wherever that if they're trafficked it becomes one of the issues that is highlighted. So it maybe opens up the market a bit more to understand us. Well absolutely, I think we were talking informally before that we find what we look for. Whatever we want to look for in the end whether it's your car keys or whether they're victims of trafficking you need to look for something to find it and sometimes you see it and it's in front of you but you don't want to see it as well because we do a number of things, tricks to feel better about ourselves and I think the minute we decide that we need to focus on this issue and it's very good to use this example from Malta because it's similar to the example I gave on children. The minute this number of 10,000 children came in the press I received more questions on children in two weeks than I did in five years and I was thinking but there's tens of thousands of children potentially being trafficked in the EU all the last five years I'm not undermining the importance, it's equally important but all children are the same and we should be focusing on all children equally at all times so it's a question of prioritising and I think our priorities at all times in anything we do should be the most vulnerable in the way I understand it. Any other questions or comments? You've given us such a lot of information and facts that I think that people are already interested in. Yes, I had a question even though it's to them. I was very surprised to hear that Germany hasn't transposed to be directed and it's not usually one of the offending countries in terms of transposition of EU legislation and I was just wondering are there specific circumstances around that and obviously it would be of concern given the huge impacts of migrants into Germany now. Well, we are in touch with the German authorities. They are working on the issue that they have now introduced a draft law that is being discussed. I cannot tell you more about it because it has to be first notified to the commission and I know that the colleagues are working and I know that it's a very complex piece of legislation and I understand in the sense that it deals with prevention, it deals with prosecution, it deals with protection of victims so it's a complex issue in a big country but of course we urge old member states to ensure proper transposition not because I'm in the EU and I'm in the commission and I want transposition of the directive but because there's human rights at stake. The moment we have law the moment then we can implement the law and hopefully help some people. So I would urge all the member states in exactly the same way to do so. Is it the fact that where prostitution is legal in a country that there's a better chance that the users of prostitutes would be willing to go to the police when they think the women they're using for sex are trafficked? I mean there'd be an embarrassment factor here I would imagine if men are going to go to the police and say well by the way I was at my lunchtime today somewhere I told the story downstairs a friend of mine moved to a big country town and has discovered that one of the apartments behind them is definitely being used for sexual trafficking and men are going in and out of it at lunchtime. But none of those I think are going to go to the garther station in this town and say by the way I was in somewhere at lunchtime today and I think the girl I was using was victim. Is there a different kind of sense of it in the countries where prostitution is legal? OK, what I can say first of all is that the commission has no competence when it comes to prostitution policy of the member states. However it has a competence when it comes to the exploitation of the prostitution of others. And in many instances not all there is the element of exploitation of the prostitution of others. What we know is that and some people say oh it's very political, it's not political this is what the law enforcement says and Europol says so I buy it. Prostitution is a very high risk sector. I'm not here to say that whether it's legal or not legal it's better or worse this is not for me to say. But prostitution is a very high risk sector and unless we identify that and we accept that we are not able to help the people who are in this sector. I talked about fisheries before nobody said oh no you're discriminating against the fishermen or women. Fishermen mostly. So why would it be the case here? It's a very high risk sector and a lot of people in prostitution are trafficked. Are they the majority or the minority? I don't know but really the question is to go and practically ensure that there is no trafficking happening in these places. I am more concerned about countries that don't have a debate on these issues at all. That is like it just happens you know there's trafficking for sexual exploitation and they don't talk about it. I am happier where countries one way or another they talk about it and they discuss it and they find a way to address the demands that fosters these forms of exploitation. Because we have to of course sometimes people don't know but come on sometimes we know for all forms of exploitation. I think we do know in many instances and I think the more the law has this normative effect and the more we prosecute and convict perpetrators or those who exploit victims the more likely we are to have a deterrent effect on this. I hate to put you in the spot there but have there been many prosecutions for trafficking as opposed to some of the allied crimes that go with it in this country? There has been a very small number in that lead on prosecution of human trafficking. As much as I hate to do so. Yes, yes, I will be honest. Well there haven't been that many actual prosecutions for the offence of trafficking as defined in the legislation. It may be because it is particularly difficult to get all the proofs that improve sexual offence but normally when we have a file like that where it is trafficking is generally what you are seeing on the page there will be similar offence that will be prosecuted for. But we have different sentences. Yes, different sentences. Well seriously that is such as organising prostitution. I can't remember exactly how it is but I don't know these 10 years. Yes, so there are some. The penalties in our general sense tend to be compared to other tribunals in other countries. So I'm not sure. So it's kind of you make choices that trafficking as a crime is very hard with a high level of proof and therefore you move to another element of it? I'm not saying that it's hard and high level proof but it is high level proof and that's not all it's there. So you can't prosecute but you can prosecute for something else and that will. And you do that in case you can't do any prosecute? That is nothing. This is what I think you're finding happening isn't it? It happens but I also hear from prosecutors and I'm not one myself so I don't claim expertise but they say first of all when it comes to the directive it says that the testimony of the victim is not to put it very plainly it's not necessary for the prosecution of the perpetrator it makes it of course a lot more difficult but here is one area for example where we could use financial investigations a lot more. When you start looking early on in the investigation and then in the prosecution when you start looking for conducting financial investigations and you actually follow the money early on some prosecutors have told us that this can give a lot better results in terms of evidence in court than even sometimes the victim's testimony would that often they don't tell the whole truth they're scared they may think that they will be deported etc etc so sometimes looking for other investigative techniques and also conducting financial investigations early on can be helpful now I'm not saying that this is the easiest thing on earth but I am saying that human trafficking is a Europe crime so we need to and it's a serious form of crime and we need to become a lot more proactive in all the member states and throughout in prosecuting the crime in itself and I really I think of cases of you know before legislation on domestic violence in some member states where it was more you know for bodily harm and etc etc there are crimes that took a long time to admit ourselves that we have crimes ahead of us including rape and we managed to put that. How would we prove it's an intimated... Nobody else is in the room. Yes and now we started understanding maybe a little bit too late for the victims but we understand a lot more than it is for prosecution it's not the same when it comes to trafficking because this is a serious form of organized crime supposed to the other, the other to and very profitable but also it gives a window of opportunity when it comes to following the money in this investigation path I think. Yes, yes Peter. I just added to that investment following money the provision in the legislation post-invasion for an application to court for the compensation of the proceeds of the crime the benefit to the person so that we can prove for that benefit. Yes, but that's post hoc when you have not really got a conviction. I think the point is that all avenues of say a bank accounts, you know the business the point of... Basically the national legislation of course. And travel patterns and all sorts of things you know. Well look I think we probably had such a great amount of information and stuff to ponder on ourselves all of us because I know looking around the room there's a great range of skills and expertise in this room and we need to constantly be aware that even though we're a small island on the edge of Ireland we're not immune from having people who are trafficked here both for labour reasons, for sexual reasons, for a number of other reasons and we must be careful and we must examine our own consciences all of us lest we might inadvertently be assisting in some form of trafficking and exploitation. So I want to thank Dr Meir very much indeed for the great work you're doing and wish you well I know when your report comes out it will get some coverage and you know it might not be as much as you would hope for but it will be another way in which we highlight this heinous and awful crime of people trafficking for as I say all sorts of reasons. So we thank you for coming here to Ireland and talking to us and thank you all very much for being here.