 This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here with the new 21 report and Socrates. Hey, thank you. Good to see you, man. So you've been at the 21 convention since the very beginning, and this is year number 15? You know, honestly, I've been around since the beginning. I think I missed the first three to be really honest. But this is 11th or 12th year. Wow. The 21st time I've been up on the stage is kind of crazy. And you sit down and you go, there's this I used to say there was this nervousness, you know, about getting on stage that large, you know, the cameras and everything else. And it's kind of alternative to what I normally do in my life. And but you know, the reality is it's not so much nervousness as excitement, you know, the anticipation and desire to perform well. And so it's it's always exciting, you know, whether it's your first time or, you know, in this particular case, the 21st time. So when you get to number 25, do you get a gold watch? At this point, I'm just surprised they keep asking me back, you know. So, you know, it's yeah, it's amazing because each convention is different. Each convention has its own identity. There's different ideas conveyed. Your sense of time and cultures a little bit different and shape shifted. And the environment in which we're talking in evolves and changes as well. And so to have been at that time period now, I sit down and I look forward to the next one because I know it's going to be an evolution of where we were. And I always look forward to seeing those modifications and changes and progressions. So if it's not too big of a question, how has 21 changed in the past 10, 11 years, at least since you've been coming dramatically and highly, highly dramatically, you know, initially it was it was a bunch of very young men bootstrapping terribly under fathered, you know, and they were doing a very vigorous and noble endeavor of trying to fill a void in their lives and take on that measure of agency. The problem is they had the worst instructors in the world themselves. And so, you know, and that's true of anybody trying to teach them stuff. And so there was this reaching out. And so that there was a kind of an emphasis on where they were felt most vulnerable engagement with women, masculinity, those sort of things. And unfortunately, at the time period, there wasn't a lot of really good solid information around that that was reaching them. It's not that it wasn't available. They may not have been known to them. And you have to deal with the world that you know. And if you don't know something, because it's outside of it, you're not going to be going towards that source. So as it's evolved, I think there's been other speakers, other content, other ideas that have spread that awareness, a refinement of those issues. And then also, there's going to be a transcendence, you know, of what works, what doesn't work, you have to fed it on. Obviously, the personalities change as well, you know, the people conveying the information. I hate to say that the messenger is a message, but too often that's truly the case. But you know, if we take in, you know, the fact that we've gone from young men bootstrapping themselves with masculinity and the ideas of what it was to be a man and the ideal man and to shoot towards that, we also look at now a narrative arc of what it is over multi phases of your life. And we see that transcending into the patriarch convention where you have that sort of stuff of men looking to wanting to be fathers that are fathers, what it is about fathering that's so important. And then looking in depth multi generationally. And then starting last year, quite honestly, you know, if you believe men and women are compatible and complimentary and you want to have a conversation about the nature of human conditions, we cannot exclude women from the conversation because it's such a pivotal, you know, element of our humanity. And so bringing them in, not just as attendees or speakers, but a convention where they feel safe, it's directed towards them is segueing, I think, to a greater audience to actually eventually merge together. And so I think in what you're seeing now is not only did we have these three conventions, we had them all three simultaneously within proximity of each other. And there was a lot of overlapping, a lot of germination of individuals going from one to another. And in particular, the ladies talking to the guys and seeing what they had to offer and what was the conversations taking place there that we have never had that conversation any other way. And I think there's something immensely important and human about looking somebody in the eye and holding a hard to hard conversation, whether it's about dating relationships about life, the intersectional dynamics, finance, business, any of those sort of things being conducted in person with another living human being. Well, let's talk about the 22 convention. This is the second year. Did you spoke last? Yes, I did. Yes. What differences did you observe in the 22 convention? How are things looking, you know, for that innovation now? Well, it's interesting. I, you know, when we look at these conventions in general, within the master, anybody can cobble together one convention. Sure. You can get out the door once. It's the second one that matters. You know, and, and so the first one in a very real sense, we didn't know who would come, what the conditions were going to be. There was a tremendous amount of cultural blow up over it. And part of that was a marketing efforts associated with it. It created a tremendous amount of attention all the way around that drove attention. But I think it, it's, I guess this debate was how effective that was, as far as trying to get true conversation going rather than having, you know, the big splash of, of attention. And so I think there was a very concern and, and, and, you know, oddly enough, I was the first speaker. And so, and so you're one, you're doing this for the first time in two, you don't know how it's going to be received or what's going to take place. And surprisingly, it went really well. And so there was dialogue. You were actually able for the first time to talk to women in this arena, you know, arena and have a dialogue. You know, even though we were doing the presentations, we're able to speak at length in between and during. And now I attended more of those talks than the other two specifically because I was really interested in that dialogue. This time around, we didn't have any of that. You know, you didn't have any of the feminist blowback. You didn't have any of that. It was much more relaxed, no anxiety. We had return attendees, which was fantastic to see, which I always like in a normal convention anyways, to see where people were, what's gone, how they've shaped it. And they were very inspired about what not only their experiences last year, but what they're anticipating this year and then using that to springboard forward for the next year. And so we saw a lot more of that and have that sort of dialogue. The conversations were continued. And I just found it a terribly rewarding experience just to be a part of that. And, you know, the attendees that I've spoken to have really enjoyed it as well. What did you talk about at the time? Oddly enough, I did not talk about anything with relationships. I talked about civil resistance, particularly in the age of COVID and medical tyranny. And the issue on that was, I want to talk about culture, you know, and how people navigate culture. And normally I talk about relationships because my concern is that I want people to be able to get along and to have healthy relationships. But if you don't have the skills that go into it, you don't want to be learning that on the job, you know, at a point of conflict or point of deterioration. So you really are going into a situation with the skills that you have. And so when we start with guys with relationships, that was kind of the big one. If you were trying to improve relationships, then you naturally want to improve your prospects for marriage, you know, and family development. So I've always focused in on that. Culture right now is overstepping all that. And the nature of the conversations and the nature of things that are taking place, the tremendous impacts and losses of our civil liberties, freedoms, and just blatant, blatant disregard. You know, we are probably, I hate to say it, the most unscientific moment in our image. It's science fiction stuff. I wouldn't believe the fiction I've always written. And so there is a natural tendency to be angered by this, to be frustrated by this. And the anger is immense. And unfortunately, I think in many ways, it's a very, very natural human reaction to want to push back and to push back hard and to push back with violence. And if you don't know any other means, that's all you use. So, you know, if in, for example, if we talk about boundary setting within a relationship, if you don't know how to manage boundaries appropriately in a relationship, you'll manage that relationship inappropriately. Right. And I see that happening now at a society level scale. Okay, but it's not a matter of I'm going to be a drama queen, I'm going to pitch a fit and crash a relationship. Now, we have people that are talking about armed rebellion, taking up arms against the state. We have people that have done things. Yeah, I don't want to project because I don't know. But I mean, you just sit down and say, January 6, you know, we have the capital insurrection, you know, the insurrection, the Instagram insurrection, an individual was killed. Right. Right. Was there a better way? And I'm not saying that they did their intent for clear, just transparent elections were not justified. But they didn't understand the nature of true civil resistance and how important discipline and behavior needs to be. And so I talked about civil resistance, what's that meant and why civil resistance is so much more dominating effectively than violence is, you know, for example, most people don't know that armed resistance overthrowing a tyrannical government, truly overthrowing the government only exceeds a quarter of the time less than a quarter of the time. But non non violent campaigns are typically 45% successful. So that's a two to one ratio. And if you're talking about trying to choose a path, I want to be the going with the one more successful. Right. Now, not only that, the results of a successful campaign, either violent or non violent, are dramatically different. The civil societies are dramatically different when violence when violence is interjected into the cultural language and behavioral patterns, it gets repeated, it gets spread. And so one of the quotes I noted was in the last 10 years, all those nations that are going through second, you know, violence and civil stripe are using campaigns have typically been birthed 30 years in the past with a violence campaign privately. And so when we look at, you know, so for example, it's a cycle. And it's a cycle that needs to stop. But how do you stop it when you can't trust the other side not to do violence? Right, for sure. And which is a, you know, it's really kind of frightening. And when we look at historically, when you are overturning ideologies, you know, the Russian Revolution, you know, killed 60 million people installing a social system of communism and socialism. Right. Okay. The Chinese outdid it with 80 million. You know, in comparison, you know, let's put it this way, high school competition. Yeah, yeah. And we're talking about the industrialization of killing, you know, the civil war itself is only 1.5 million people. Okay. In comparison, only, only, only it's more of a, more of a, but I mean, I understand what you mean. So one decade later, right? You know, right. And so what do we think the next conflict is going to be? And by the way, if we're talking with the United States, I don't want to be a part of that. I don't want to, I, it's not that I don't want to just be a part of that. I don't want to inherit that world. I don't want to put my daughter into the world that will exist after that conflict, right, you know, or my grandchildren. That's the idea of looking three generations deep, you know, that, that going deep, what type of world are we creating, you know, and saying, is this really what I want to see in this world? And so my, my talk in essence was to teach at least those general facts and to also then, and then to sit down and showcase as powerful as some of the images you saw, you know, so for example, in January 6, the administration threw in 26,000 armed troops into the capillary for the inauguration and to protect it after, to, to make sure they barricaded. Oh yeah. The National Guard troops stationed everywhere. And so was that a projection of power? You know, and so one of the questions I asked is, does power flow from the barrel of a gun is my second tongue states or, or is it really the consent of the government? And so you kind of go through that. And when you have to throw 26,000 troops into a non-armed insurrection, that really is a selfie kind of, it's a lot of buffoonry, right? But the reality is, is in 2003, Georgia did the same thing and did overthrow the government because of very recent, Georgia, yes, Washington, Georgia. Yeah. Because of fraudulent elections, non-tramparency, you know, and all the things that were in play at that time, you know, and they insist, and they, they ended up winning, you know, they ended up convincing and overthrowing a very tyrannical, you know, an authoritarian illegitimate government and were able to do so. So I, the powers of being knew that, right? And so they ended up throwing all these troops in, in place out of fear. And they felt they had to show power and seize the power and physically show it. How, how terribly different would have been? Because remember that evening, the capitalists cleared out their back to business, had they opened it up doors and had tours walking through the next morning as though nothing happened? Would we be living in a different world? That would have been strength, immense strength and trust in the American people. But what you saw was a government afraid of the people and afraid of loss of power that they had just seized one way or another. And it doesn't spell well when you have all that background, you know, taking place in the background. And it's not just those sort of things. And then you look at all the other behaviors, social, you know, the, you know, I just happen to use COVID as kind of a nice convenient way to ramp kind of the guys up to the point of saying, Hey, look, let's look at more efficient ways. Right. The problem with civil resistance, though, in many cases is that they look at destabilizing the pillars of the support of the administration. And to do that, well, you have to look at all the major social institutions that support the regime and to sway them one way or another. Now, it's, that's not a passive measure. You're, you're actively, it's a, it's a strategy and techniques of persuasion of coercion. It's, it's confrontation. You, you are forcing confrontation on it, but nonviolent all through legal means, you know, and, but that takes decades on average. And we don't have decades. Yeah. But I'm an architect. I can tell you, you can take a building down, not by rattling the cage, the vertical structure, but undermining the foundation. And that foundation is the mass of people. And we live in a digital age in which we can create content just like this. We have the ability to cross communicate, which is why digital social media censorship is so important. It's why they're doing it. Okay. Our ability to communicate, exchange ideas over our broad base area. And if you sway people, and then the other one is not only convince them, okay, but to join you and to physically act on it, to march, to say no, to protest, to not accept the narrative. Those sort of things will stabilize or unstabilize a regime in the, quite honestly, we know that the cliche saying is that politics lives downstream of culture. That's true. That's very true. Okay. And politics, politicians know that. And so why don't we look at, fortunately, I think the interesting, another fascinating stat was that no movement has failed when they've been able to mobilize 10% of the population. None. It's 100% successful at 10%. And the reality is there were some outliers that skewed it. The, probably the mean for that is about 3.5%. And that's based on researchers analysis of all these conflicts over 120 years. Wow. Okay. So, so nothing has failed at 10%, but you can get the job done at 3%. 3.5 typically. So, but that's, that's, if that's, if you're overthrowing a government that's tyrannical and violent against its own people. Where it's out in the open. Where it's out in the open. We don't live in that world right now. Right now. It's, it's moving there. But right now, they're not. Yeah. And, and so I think the number is actually much lower. And so if the number is lower, and the average, the average nonviolent campaign has 1.6% of the population, you're pretty much 45% of the way there. So wait, so, so this is to make sure that I understand the numbers. 10% nothing has ever failed. Average is the mean you said is closer to 3.5%. That's correct. Right. And now, but like really at 1.6%, you can probably make a pretty significant. It's, it's not, it's the 1.6% is the average nonviolent campaign. Okay. Average nonviolent 1.6. High likelihood of success at 3.5. Right. Guaranteeing success at 10%. And, and what, what you're seeing is that even though we're only mobilizing those numbers, there's a much broader support within the population. Right. Okay. Which then sways change. Okay. And it forces people to change the metrics in which they're making the decisions. So for example, Southwest Airlines, with the pilot unions. Right. Supposedly there was no strike. They just had a business failure, even though the administration was literally forcing the mandates down and pressuring them to do that. I heard it was bad weather. You know, it was, it's just, it's Florida sunshine. It's just too rich sometimes. Yeah. The bad weather that only affects one airline. One airline. That's fascinating. Yeah. Clouds chasing them through the sky. Yeah. And science. I mean, yeah, it's. It's science. How is that not science? Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, you, and that would be one institution in power is unions being able to kind of step together and say no. Yeah. In effect change. And what we're talking about is doing on a larger scale. And so when you look at just your population size, that's why groups are so important, large. And one of the, one of the reasons why I gave the same speech at 22 convention is that if you exclude sex, okay, as you know, most, most women are not wanting to pick up arms on general. Right. Right. You're losing half your population base. And then by the way, the, the demographics that's more inclined for social network mobilization, early discussion, alliance making, supporting, enabling things to actually sustain a movement for tends to be female traits, which is one of the reasons why in a lot of these protests, and a lot of these voter registration polls, and you see dominated by the groundwork, the grassroots are always dominated by women. And so soft power. Absolutely right. Call me when I need to get off the couch for the power. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Completely right. And so when you are able to talk to them and say, Hey, it's not just that we need you. We desperately need you now to avoid what's coming. You know, if violence, you know, to prevent that violence, to prevent that or alternative, and we need to act now. And the other is that we need you to engage your partner. Okay. And this is where men and women are compatible and complementary to our particularly in this realm. And so it was really nice to be able to talk to women specifically about that, you know, as opposed to my 21 talk, which was to a bunch of military aged male guys who are naturally wound up are looking to defend their values and cultures and implement change and can be very easily swayed to join something like January 6 and have that go arrived at this time with violence. Sure. And so you say, Hey, guys, just be very careful what you're doing. You know, there's, there's better, more, more efficient, more effective ways. And to create the change that you really, truly idealize not to make change that becomes even more oppressive, more, you know, and by intent, you know, that gets mismanaged. And so I sit down and said, you know, and from my personal perspective, if I sat quiet during this time period, I, it's not just that I'm missing a moment in time, I would not be able to respect myself going forward having not spoken up to have used the platforms that are available to me to be able to convey that information to help not only create a better alternative, but to prevent real human tragedy, you know, and so we backed that all up. You know, I started out with trying to help individual guys improve their personal lives. It grew to helping the relationships, marriages, families, and then in this particular case, it's now we're now at a societal level. So looking back at the past 15 years or 21 in the past 10, 12 years that you've been involved, are you surprised, like put yourself backwards in time? Are you surprised, even setting aside the social climate of right now, surprised that 21 has moved in this direction of family, society, even larger aesthetic and religious values? That's another one that's interesting is it's not just in one vein that that's changing, you know, brought up religious value. I think the, my favorite panel that was recorded the other day on Red Man Group was the religious one. You had what five, five or six individuals up there representing five, five or six different dominant nominations and viewpoints on religion and faith and beliefs in God. Talk about that in very civil, open, communicating hate, you know, and what was also interesting is everybody looked for areas in which they mutually agree first and then only highlighted, Hey, it's not this is where you're wrong or this is what we believe. It's just, or let me phrase it, it wasn't where you're wrong. This is what we believe, you know, and then profit at that. Consensus building first. Consensus building, and that's not something you normally see in most non-sphere environments or most environments in general when you talk about that. Especially with religion in general. Oh my God, you know, the only thing more, the only other two topics we could have had that would have been worse other than that was sex and politics, right? Yeah, and probably almost. Yeah, at some point we're grabbing all three lines, right? Exactly. And that's the 21 convention. But you know, to sit down and see that evolution and see that change, I sorely welcome it. You know, and part of me sits down and says it's so intuitive, you know, it was bound to happen because you have individuals that are truly growing in their interest and everything else that's going to manifest into something bigger. But as ideas share across German, it's going to take more than just those inroads as well. Or, you know, you'll see a lot of growth going in multiple different directions, which I think we desperately need in society. You know, we've somehow lost that, you know. I love Jack Donovan because of a lot of the symbolism that he talks about, about men going out making fires and that radiating, you know, idea of light and the notion of men sitting around a campfire and people sitting around a campfire telling stories, communicating. And in many cases, you see that in other media. So for example, TED talks, we're 20 minute talks, right? You know, just short sound bites, you know, this, you know, short 20 minutes. There's something to be said about Joe Rogan's five hour format podcast in depth, at length, you know, where things are rolling. And it's not just the subject matters. It's the experience of that evening that I think we've lost that connection in this fast paced moving culture, you know, the journey of the conversation, the journey, absolutely, you know, and how much more enlightening and fulfilling is that? And like, I honestly have a hard time turning on entertainment media to watch a two hour video or something in a movie, because what I find is the reality of a human podcast, a human dialogue is so much more meaningful and non scripted. And I'm not saying that great fiction and everything else, you know, I'm tired of the same stories and being redone and everything else. Hollywood's lost that creative edge that we go back to just holding conversations. You know, you know, that's fascinating. It blow my mind right now. Well, the other one is, I was talking to Steve Williams, because I don't get to see him often. He's great, by the way. Yeah, I just love him. And it's one of the scenes that we're talking. And he goes, you know, Sarcades, if I ever win a billion dollars, he says, you and I, I'm going to set a million aside for you and I to do nothing, nothing more than to sit on my porch and just sit and watch our kids play and talk. And I'm like, I look at a million dollars. And you know, I was hard pressed to think of a better way to spend a million dollars. And you just look at it and go, whether you get a million dollars a day, let's, let's make that happen. Anyway, let's, let's make that happen. Yeah. And I think there's something just magnificent about that. Yeah. Well, it's something I've been reflecting on lately about how what accounts for the explosion of podcasts like never before in human history ever have we had as much access to people just talking, right? Right? That's all what podcasts is. I'm with X video. Otherwise, it's people just talking, you know, you know, live stream conversations like Tony Bruno's channel, you know, and many more like that, just hours and hours and hours produced billions of hours at this point, who knows, of conversation. And it's cool that yes, the medium is there to do it. But what accounts for the interest in it? Why are we all listening to people talking versus listening to music, for example? And I think you put your finger on it. It's like our creative, our visual media, creative institutions, radio, music, movies, TV, in some sense have failed us, our fail have lost their creative edge. It's like, so what are we as individuals going to do? Let's create something through conversation. Yes. You know, and AJ Cortez the other day, and I'm going to steal his right from him, he talked about being a dime store philosopher, but man, that guy can nail some things like sometimes like 15 cents. Yeah, 15 you get a quarter for it. You know, but you know, he said something he's that the right now people are desperately lonely. Oh, that's so true. You know, and so, so let's talk about the medium of podcasts. I think of the police song, you know, where you're talking about a message in a bottle, and you take this and I don't have somebody to relate to and media is such that it's, I don't want to say it's garbage because it's poor quality. It's it's superficial. It's sugar. It's probably it's not deep. It's not impactful. And it's only one way, right? Yeah, it's very clearly pushing a narrative at the expense of the actual storytelling character. Yeah, absolutely. And so when I do a podcast, I'm doing two things. I'm attempting to be seen and heard. And I'm putting my message in a bottle and I'm casting it out into the ocean. And then the police song that he talked about waking up in the morning, and there's a million bottles washed ashore. And I see podcasts and this sort of media very much like that. Yeah, you know, the explosion, the proliferation of it is that everybody can put a message in a bottle and try to find some connection with somebody globally that's out there that's not on my island of sphere of influence. That's out there that we're not in contact. And then hopefully that message gets to somebody who reads it, you know, it's meaningful. And I find that conventions like this takes that and brings those islands of people together. You know, even if it's just for a couple of days, you end up leaving with a sense of belonging, a connection with other people who are trying and attempt to do similar type things. And you you're left with a an experience. You know, you live it and breathe it and it's a journey. Okay. Whereas if I sat in and I hate to say it, if you're watching this now, it's a video, it's it's two dimensional. This there's a richness to this that you've you just don't have there. Right. It's different when the cameras turn off, because when the cameras turn off, and you go behind the scenes or everything that's going on over there, you can't capture that or should you know, right? That's the stuff where the real magic happens. Yes. Yes. And you know, what I really love about it too, is returning and seeing people have returned as well. So it's not just a snapshot right now. Right. It's a series. And you're able to say where have you been? What have what's gone on with you? And how have you changed or, you know, seeing people progress. And personally, I know I focus on relationships. I'm always amazed at the number of wedding invitations I'm invited to, or pictures of kids, you know, this is my child or, you know, I've given two talks where I talk about a dad bag, you know, being a diaper changing. I've heard about that. Yeah. And never in my life did I ever think I'd be ever talking about that. But it wasn't, it's not the diaper and the changing that was important. It was scaring for my child and developing the pattern of behavior that my child knows when it's under duress to come to me, you know, that it's that the diaper changing was the symptom. But the result was I wanted the child to see by behavior that I will be there for them, I will hold them, particularly when they can't speak, you know, that they can only cry or, you know, act. And I see that my own daughter and seeing that reflective and just how powerful that that has been, you know, and to sit down and say, I don't I can't afford to wait to be involved in her life later on. You know, if I if I'm going to have value, I have to distribute, you know, showcase that value in advance, lead by example, you know, and you you teach by doing and part of it was just simply changing the diaper and not just changing the diaper become the best diaper changer in the world. And it wasn't because I can change the dirty diaper. It's because I cared for the child. I cared for my partner. And I actually looked further in depth than the actual act of changing the diaper, you know, that the child's needs. And I took care of all the relationships, which then made me absolutely indispensable. Nobody does a better diaper than I do. You know, because that they're they're my unit, they're my family. And that's how you care and protect and provide, you know, Ryan Mishers, you know, that the element of preside that I actually kind of liked as well. Yeah. So, well, Jack Donovan talks about your straight courage mastery, you know, the four tactical virtues and as you're just you're describing, there's something you wanted to do it masterfully, because as a man, you bring mastery to your life, he brings strength, courage, mastery and honor. Why not bring it to changing a diaper, not for the sake of changing diaper, but this is another area that I can express mastery as a man. And I actually used that in part of the talk. Yeah, you know, and just sit down and literally, and it was actually really funny to see Jack in the room talking about it, right? You know, and you just see the the clip, you know, he's making the connections that his work is now being utilized for a kid's diaper and just how wonderful that was, you know. But there really is something to that, you know, there are absolutely something to that, and he's not wrong. And one of the best talks he ever gave was one of the workshops. It was not recorded. And he says, let's talk about just this, but what happens when your business uses this as a model? He talked about business and the four tactical virtues. Yes. What if you had a business that said, this is our mission statement. Wow. Yeah. You know, what would that mean? What would that look like? And it could be any number of services or products. But what happens if you say, this is how we're going to do this? And what a difference that would make in the world? Wow. And you're just you're struck by that, you know? And so I think there's a lot of things that that can be done and leveraged upon whether it's Jack or any of the other number of guys that you can take bits and pieces, cobble them together and they still work, you know, and come up with something new and original and insightful. But talk about the 21 convention patriarch's event and what you saw going on there compared to years past and some of the some of the speakers and some of the men. The fascinating one on that was that, you know, the patriarch event was typically for guys that are fathers wanting to be better fathers, you know, and we realized that there was this real dearth of knowledge out there. And so one of the projects that we did literally it started at 21 convention on the side conversation was how do you teach guys to father that are under father themselves while they're in the act of fathering. So you're having to on the job, teach guys how to father. And so we took the notion of a children's book and in saying, look, you read to a child to be able to teach language to spend time with them to know that they took to relate with the child to sit and hold and to engage them rather than just sort of playing games. And we chose a bullying book to help develop a skill set. Like how do you teach your child not to get bullied? Was that look like how to start a conversation? Well, outside of them, you know, like, have you seen bullying somewhere else and how bring it forward closer to them? So the notion was always how do we teach men who are under fathered how to father and who don't know. We're also teaching men who are fathering in the act, be better fathers and then themselves and to expose them to some of the other ideas. And so that was kind of the premise. And so we were doing that is it's evolving and developing and growing. The fascinating element was there were a number of guys at 21, the young men's group that actually had the opportunity at will to go to the other convention and sit in on those talks that set them said, I would not have paid to come to a fathering event. But because it was available, I could go next door, catch one or two and be exposed to the information to be exposed to that community of men before being fully committed. So it's very much like trying something on, you know, taking it out for a test drive or whatever is even if it's just light exposure. So we're seeing that now take place as well. The other is we're also seeing grandfathers show up. Oh, wow, really? Yeah. Yeah. So we always talk about the other. We're seeing grandfathers show up new convention. Yeah, but they're sitting there saying they are realizing because it's a patriot. Yeah, yeah, is that they they're now, you know, essentially, they're biologically successful, right? Their children have had children on their own. That's Darwinian successful. And and they said, yeah, yes. But here's here's the difference that they didn't do it with intent. They just did it, right? Yeah. And now they sit down and say, but I missed something along the way. How do I galvanize that legacy? How do I re contribute? How do I start with where I'm at? And make something more of how do I strengthen my family tree at this relatively end stage of life? It's not too late. So good. No, really, because I think I think we have a very youth centric culture, right? Yeah. And we're beginning to change that. I think, particularly with men with the 21 convention and stuff like that, where it's like, no, let's focus on all stages of a man's lifestyle. Like, yes, it's cool to be like young and awesome and fit and the whole thing. But like, let's think about dating. Let's think about marriage. Let's think about fatherhood. Right. Let's think about this. And now I'm really happy to see grandfathers are coming because there's a real lack of information about that stage of a man's life cycle. Yes. Like, there are so many different aspects of being a man that crystallize in being a grandfather. Like, yes, you can't do the same things that you did when you were like a teenager. You know what I mean? When you're the Calvin Klein cover model, whatever. Yes. But there's really unique power in a grandfather as we're talking to Ken Curry about this. He was saying in a man's voice and in his presence. The gravitas. That's right. Yes. And I believe, I personally believe that a cultivated man at the elder stage, the grandfather stage has more power than like a dozen young men. Well, it's experiential wisdom. Yes. experiential wisdom. Yeah. And the interesting thing is, and I'm gonna, it's not that the grandfathers are now showing up. They were there from the beginning. Right. And some of them are return returnings. They've been to everyone. The difference now is they're finding their voice. They're being seen amongst the group now. Yes. And so even with the. They're not ashamed of being older. Yeah. Yeah. And they're not insecure about being there. They're actually more willing to talk to the other guys, to engage the other guys. And in many ways, they're ambassadors of the event itself. And you're seeing that. And so it's within a kind of a group, you're seeing them kind of take ownership of that kind of group and disparity, not only within their own families, but within the group of men that are showing up. And it's fantastic to see, you know, some of these guys, the older guys show up and to talk, you literally go over and talk to some of the younger guys, you know, finding out what their interests are and being again, mentors to other men as it should be. You know, and, and I hate to say it in the part, this is why you come. Yeah. You know, the idea is that you're not just looking for information. You're looking for direct experience, people who are role modeling, you know, and, you know, and we've had fathers, grandfathers speak, you know, Texas Dom is one of the guys I just love, you know, at the convention. And he, he said something that I know is so true. It shocked me the moment I heard it. But it's something terribly natural. He literally said these is that you, and this is a man who just loves his children, you know, that there's it's not a profession of a lack of love. He was, it's amazing how much you can love your child and how insignificant your child becomes the moment you see and hold your grandchild. I've heard that. And he was, it allows me to make for men's of all the mistakes and fallacies or, you know, inadequacies of me as a man and as a father that I can see passing through that. I'm not the individual. I'm not, I'm not the man in the arena anymore. I'm the guiding hand that can help hold and control, you know, contain my family unit to assist and alleviate where needed and to influence in positive ways. And I find that just a tremendous testament to the man to his sense of his self, his obligations to his family. And it's a wonderful, wonderful human center. I want to, I want to ask a philosophical question here because we're just, we're in it now. I stuck with this notion that in some ways it feels like society has too low expectations for men, right? In some ways. Like, you know, that like a mediocrity seems to kind of be the norm in many ways, right? And celebrated. And celebrate. But it also feels like there's a flip side to that where society has too much like over expectations for men. So for example, any man is naturally going to be imperfect as a man and therefore will be imperfect in his fathering. And it seems like there's been a generation of kids that came up maybe through the inner work world where it's like, my father did this and my father did this. And yes, there's obviously cases for abuse and neglect and those sort of things. But where you take like, yeah, my dad was a man and he screwed up because he's a man. And it's like, you got to be able to see that and let that go. But it seems like there's a lot of holding onto like, my dad should have known whatever, whatever. This is maybe that why I like Jesse Lee Peterson, where he's like, have you forgiven your mother? Have you forgiven your father, right? But I guess in that, it's kind of like, what's that divide between the expectation of mediocrity is setting the bar too low versus setting the bar too high, like you should have been perfect. And maybe the 21 convention is like saying, no, it's okay to be a man and to be imperfect and to always be striving. Right. I think it's in part, you know, culture lives, lives downstream of so many things, right? Consciousness. Consciousness. That's what my friend Arthur Blood and Rain says, like, politics is downstream from culture, but culture is downstream from consciousness. Right. Love that what he said. And so let's let's talk about what we're infusing our culture with. Our heroes are not men who rise above. Not anymore. Not anymore. Yeah. They're men that massively overcheap, but that's not the hero we're really selling. Who were really selling out in the media, you know, in the public? It's superheroes. And men who are no even, they're not even human anymore. They're being, they're fictional. I mean, there's no attempt. You have to be from some far off alien brought to earth with Superman. You don't even, you don't have a chance. The only superhero out of the whole group that's human that doesn't have some God gift is Batman. Yeah. But even yeah. And even then they're super human, right? Yeah, exactly. And he's a billionaire. Yeah. Well, we'll first start. Yeah. And it goes from there, right? Yeah. And so what is, what is some kids versus like a Luke Skywalker who's like some, some point kid living on a desert planet who discovers his innate potential and manifests it. And honestly, how revolting in your presentation, the destruction of that here. Once you see that. Yeah. And you know, it's one of the things where I saw it and I couldn't give voice to it. I just felt physically ill and I'd let go of that whole thing for forever. And honestly, there was only one Star Wars. There's only one. I, the boys in my, the house. No, no, actually Star Wars, Star Wars. Even that was a, if I really honestly were to look at it was a disappointment to me. I mean, they should have stopped with one. You know, and just, yeah, yeah. Just I'm a hot take. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just, just don't, don't talk to me about the other six. I don't care. It's only one done amazingly well. Yeah. But, you know, to sit down, they had to, they had to destroy your gods. You had to destroy your models. And Han Solo. All of them. Yeah. And whether it's, you know, not shooting first or any of that, you know, all that, there's been a conscious effort. Well, his son, like, you know what I mean, like that was just horrible. And these are our myths. These are, you know, this is the things that we're cultured. Well, the myth that's trying, that is trying to be positive. Yeah. Right. And so what I find is that if we can culture people with real life people, human conditions and showcase heroism in the day to day achievable things to grow from there, I think we'll have a vastly different culture. But right now, I think fantasy and fiction have become subconsciously embedded into our consciousness and expectation. Interesting. Because I think we're here at this in person event, where men are seeing each other as men. These are the things that we all share. These are the things that we all go through. We get to see each other's humanity, like I had friends coming who had, you know, from my Renaissance of Men Council group, who had been enjoying the content, let's say, of so many different creators or self included, but like Jack Donovan and Alexander Cortez and Tanner Guzzi and Anthony, etc. The whole, and they seem almost, these men seem almost larger than life through social media, especially Jack Donovan with the character that he creates. I introduced him as a live action, you know, literally a live action superhero. And he is, he manifests that. He manifests that and he creates that through social media. It's very intentional. But then my guys were coming here and they're like, okay, who are these guys in person? Right. Do they all sit aside behind some velvet robe, you know, with their sunglasses on and doors like they'll sign autographs. Yeah. It's like the VIP section of a letter. Yeah, exactly. But instead, what they found is what the truth is, it's like, no world was meant. Yeah. It is possible to be authentic and to include the larger than life parts of your personality. And then to just kind of put that away and be just the guy you are, you know, and to go back and forth and to manifest that greatness within yourself. And you don't stop being great when you put it away. But it's like, to show up on social media is different how to then you show up in person. And that can all be part of being a congruent man. And I think for men, it may be difficult to see that through the, you know, the fourth wall or whatever, right? But that's the magic of what goes on here is like, no, we're all three dimensional men and human beings. And beyond that, it's not just that you see that once or twice or just in passing, like in other conventions, the talent shows up, they present, they may have a meet and greet and they're out. Yeah, right. Here it's four days. And for the most part, all the speakers stay around, they attend the other speeches that you have multiple social stars and talk at length, you know, and honestly, the best times are after 10 o'clock where everyone's sitting around the pool talking or carrying on a conversation. You know, well, you and Jack that one year, I can remember last year, yeah, last year, literally, I left you guys late because I knew I needed to get some sleep and I was speaking in the morning. And then as I'm heading back to the convention, you guys are literally coming up at daybreak, heading back to change and shower. And you absolutely knew you guys were talking and you have that sort of thing. And the number of times I've had guys to sit down and say, yeah, I'm not talking here and I'm actually bumping into somebody to my left and I turn and here it is. It's AJ Cortez himself or Jack Donner or whatever it is. And one of the guys is like looking at Jack and Jack has to grab the guy because it's me. I can remember the same thing. And it's going to sound really weird. I've done this for what 11 years, you know, 21 times. And I still, there are new speakers that I know are coming that I'm excited to speak, you know, kind of like you're kind of a fanboy myself. I want to meet this individual, you know, it's really weird to be able to do that. And I value that experience. And I know that I have that here. Absolutely have that here. And in all honesty, I think we need more than just the 21 convention or 22. I think we need a lot more of this in life in the world. And this sort of idea needs to grow across the spectrum. I agree. I agree. Yeah, I was thinking of like Ian Smith, you know, Ian Smith is almost like a world leader, not a world leader in like the political sense, but it's like he's Ian Smith. Right. And there he is hanging out, having dinner, having a drink. Yeah, it's like, oh, he's just like right there next to Jack Donner. I'm like, is this real life? Yeah, right. It is. It is. It absolutely is. And what I like about it is that Anthony's done a really good job at not only vetting a lot of the speakers, but getting people who are personal and willing to do that. Yeah. And the interesting enough is that you know, there's something wrong when the person doesn't do that. It's usually a tell. Right. And so because you'll have it really. Yeah. Yeah. And to be honest, having seen that kind of spectrum, there are some people have come and gone. You don't see him. There's some conflicts. There's some, and Anthony at times will actually have somebody he brings in that he completely disagrees with, but put some opposite of somebody else to hear two stories. You know, so it was really interesting that very brave, you know, where you have somebody talking about monogamy and religion and how important family is and bringing in a polygamist. Yeah. You know, one, two, and then have them on a panel. You know, interesting enough, we have learned though, you don't bring in the fit and cardio folks together. That that usually be a little more confrontational. Oh, me and the weightlifting cardio cardio cardio cardio folks. That means we divided that. We don't need to go there. But it was kind of funny here in some of this stuff, you know, where you're on a panel and, you know, one body somebody just kind of leans over and works. Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. So it's not that everyone's going to agree here. And that's kind of very important. You're going to hear, you're going to have conflicting information at times. People believe very different things. The religious panel. Yeah, exactly. Oh my God, you know, Eastern Orthodox, Mormon, Protestant Christian, yeah, right, right. The first night I, you know, we're at the pool, you know, the meeting after the meeting, the convention hasn't started yet. And I'm with Jeff Younger, who's, you know, Orthodox. I have Michael Foster as a pastor and we're sitting in and we're starting to have a conversation. And they immediately go to religion and it goes deep. I mean, so deep. I'm trying to even understand the words they're using to have many. And I just sat there and I go, I'm just going to put my, you know, I figuratively say I'm just going to get my foot in the pool. You guys just go on. And for the next 45 minutes, they had one of the most profound conversations back and forth that was amenable. That was sincere, honest with integrity, with respect. And you just sit down and go, my God, the chance is just to be the fly in that wall. And two guys that would normally you would think would be vehemently, vehemently post each other. In the world, it would seem that would be the case, you know, religious conflict is intense. And in what was interesting, they like each other as people, you know, and there's something terribly wonderful about that. You know, and so I'm really glad that we had that panel to be able to come up. And so that got captured on film, you know, as opposed to that was an experience I had that not everybody else had because nobody else was around at the moment that now is shared and reviewed. And I honestly hope that helps bring others in to sit down and say, Hey, we do have these experiences. There is room for a growth. It's not just where this thing started, you know, unfortunately, started with pickup and has all that baggage with it. Those are the frontiers at the time. It really was like, this is the new edgy stuff to explore. Let's explore it. But the frontiers moved on. But that doesn't mean it wasn't valuable for what it was. Right. And I feel it as kind of like, you know, the Wild West Frontier. It was this chaos. And it was a boom town. And in any of those shows of boom towns where there's a railroad show where they have the stops and it's nothing but tents and all the debauchery and the stupidity and the productivity, it was. There was no doubt it was. But, you know, I've always been fascinating about how either fallen societies or boom towns, how they start from that point and then transcend into civilization. Yes. Okay. And which ones do it well and where it falls. And so that's been kind of everybody. Go ahead. Sorry. Finish the thought. And so I see that happening with, you know, pick up in Manusphere and Red Pill and all that sort. I see the boom town air disappearing and civilizations arriving. The roads are getting paved. The stores now have, you know, swinging front doors. We now have, you know, we now have restrooms and doors running water. Right. And so I see in many ways civilization entering into this realm. Well, very literally, because we have Arthur Kwan Lee, you know, an internationally acclaimed fine artist speaking here. Incredibly. And that's the highest level of civilization as the Arya produces. It is the expression. Yeah. Absolutely. And not just an artist, a man who's a philosopher, deeply religious, deeply committed to family and expressed into his art. I just like, absolutely awesome. Absolutely awesome. You know, as you were saying that what makes me think, what really begins to shift the boom town into civilization is the arrival of the law, right? The law, not just the sheriff, but something beyond that. And we kind of gone through a little bit of that. And that's it's really ugly. You know, so for example, I, well, you get all the bandits on the outside of town that used to kind of having their way with things. And then the law shows up as like the new sheriff in town. New sheriff. And it's really ugly. And it's messy. And that did come in a degree of self-regulation. And that's that's taking place. Right. And, you know, I use the analogy of tombstone, which is partial to me from being the West. And I went to school in Arizona. The movie. The movie. Yeah. But it was based on reality. That was all based on reality. And the real life was more fabulous than the story, the movie. The reality of it was much more extreme. Oh. Yeah. And violent and just incredibly violent. But, you know, you have this sort of, you know, how do you get rid of the grifters and that sort of cleaning up, you know, the sheer fraudulent behavior in some of the cases. But I think you also need to move on it. But civilization, the other part, and it shows up in tombstone as well as many of the other genres is when the arts start to arrive. And typically it's a traveling theater that shows up. Civilization is on. And that's when the cowboys that are wearing dirty that have just nothing but, you know, a spittoon and, you know, your whiskey is either poured in, you know, a clean glass or, you know, dirty one, you know, and that sort of level of behavior. And all of a sudden they're dressing, they're dusting themselves off to present even minor errors of presentation. And we've seen that with Tanner Guzzi arriving to the 21st and bringing a sense of style and everything else and doing it in an unapologetic, masculine way. Very much. And so I've seen that transformation as well. And I see that continuing. The guys were giving me a bad time because I haven't wore the same shirt that I spoke in because I never left the convention area, right? Sure. And they had gone back. Well, I can get away. That's my favorite of your shirt. It is, this is the best one for the week. But they went and got jackets and, you know, little things and they dressed for dinner. Nice. And I'm like, boomtown it, right? You know, you're just like, there was something immensely respectful there. They were representing themselves and they're representing a moment as well. This isn't normal. We're going to, we're going to honor this moment by our presence, by how we handle that. And I thought, well, fucking done. You know, I'm just well done. Yeah. So it's like this is this process of maturation. Well, also makes me think, what about the female speakers? Suzanne Venker and Melissa Isaac coming in and speaking here. And these are women with established brands or careers and audiences who've come in to compliment everything that's already going on. Like many women are complimentary. Yes. And it's not only do they have something to say, they have something critical to say. So very much, you know, and that was kind of the surprise on the first 22 convention was that we had a guest speaker at the very end that was going to, that was a woman speak. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. And sharp and funny and humorous. And just in that pure girl next door kind of spirit and health and beauty. And she radiates and glows that just absolutely love her. And the only thing better than Jen Maleski is her partner and husband, you know, you know, yeah, I just, I love that guy. And so you have that, then you have Anthony wanted to increase the more women to talk. And that was critical. So it's not just men lecturing to women. You sell it that way, but then you deliver, you deliver. And maybe I'm blowing this one too, but we were already talking about there needs to be a 22 convention strictly women presenters. Oh, that'd be amazing. Yeah. To get women to kind of do it for themselves to have that venue and say, Hey, look, it's not just it's not just men talking to women. Here you go. That would actually be the ideal. I mean, I think it's important because the subject has come up multiple times during the weekend that, you know, women do what while there is this whole thing about mansplaining or whatever, right, you know, there, there isn't an aspect of masculine authority, masculine competence where men can in fact speak to men and yes, they can speak to women. There's a component. I think mansplaining has this implication of being condescending like a man speaking to a woman is naturally condescending, which I think is a pollution, you know, it's a corruption of an idea because that's not necessarily true. Yes, of course, men can be condescending to men. Yes, of course, men can be condescending to women, but a man by nature speaking to women is not being condescending. And so this has come up multiple times during the convention where it's like women do listen to men who project authority and that's fundamentally incompetence. That is fundamentally a good thing. And yet women speaking to women, as you say about these issues about femininity, about masculinity, about their true natures, is even more powerful because they get the chance to model it in a way that men don't. And that you're hitting something right on the head. And then we know the reality in many cases the messenger becomes a message. Yeah, medium is the message. And I don't care if, you know, a lot of the talks that we're saying things that we were saying five, six, seven years ago, the facts haven't changed. Yeah. But the difference is, if you hear it, and it takes that speaker to get that point across and for you to absorb it, that's what we want. Whatever it takes to... Whether it's me or somebody else or whoever it is, you just keep trying and changing that messenger's messenger, you know, and if it finally you pick it up, you know, it's like, it's like a book you've read before and you pick it up again, finding, all of a sudden a passage strikes you differently because of the context where you're in, it's been there the whole time you've read it before. But now this is resonating. Same thing. Yeah. Same thing. Yeah, there's a quote that reading is rereading. So the first time you read a book, you're just catching the overall themes and flow of the thing. But the second time you read a book, that's when you actually read the book. Yeah, I think that's it. Very, very similar. Well, you bring up the future of the 21 convention. You have enough, other than Anthony, right, who would be the guy on the ground, knowing exactly the direction, no driver in the bus. You know, you've seen, what he said, 11, 12 years, something of the trajectory of the thing along with the trajectory of the men's space and the trajectory of society, like tie those three together. Oh my, you know, and I have a profoundly unfair position, you know, because no cheating. Yeah, Anthony and I are close physically in proximity. And so it's not uncommon for him to meet up, we go to dinner, he comes over to the house, we talk. And so we're bouncing absolutely insider intel back and forth. But for the 21 convention and everything else, he drives the bus, it is his bus completely. I'm just the first seat over here, you know, taking the tour. Yeah, but I know, I know what technically where we're going on the tour, but then he's his own man, completely. Yeah. But I think he's finding his own way and his, his, his life arc is changing. And he's now 33, right? Yeah, yeah. And here's a transition point for me. Yeah. And here's a man who's gone through marriage and a bad divorce, incredibly bad. And I was there for that. And you're seeing as he matures in his arc that he's looking ahead. And it goes back to when he was a 17 year old punk, he, and I mean that in a very sincere, sincere way, just energy and focus and driving conviction. But he knew enough that he wanted to surround himself with mentors. He wanted these relationships that he had an interest in this. So he found somebody he, he would believe in, you know, whether it's Anne Rand and Anne Rand's past. So he found, you know, the Anne Rand Institute and brought one of their speakers in, you know, he developed those relationships. So he ends up starting with this circle of mentors himself. And then he so damn graciously shares that freedom of the world films and stuff. And it always, at the best that he could afford at the time, and what technology would allow the scale of technical production at this event is insane. I came last year and I saw it, but I didn't really see it. Right. It's like cameras and photographers and, you know, angles and lighting. And it's like, it's incredible what's going on here. Yeah. And the audio, the audio, yeah, completely invisible. Yeah. And that's, that is the backbone of something. There's all these other elements that he orchestrates as well. For sure. Like that guy. Yeah, that guy. And what's interesting is seeing that he's open and looking ahead of where his life's going and what's impacting. And he's bringing the folks together. And the other is he's also very consciously looking at society. Oh yeah. In a very sincere way. Society is kind of forcing you to look at it like. And, you know, you hear him being terribly bombastic about feminism and everything else. And he says it in terribly, in elegant ways and just very guttural. And, you know, yeah, yeah, completely. And, you know, and part of me goes, oh, damn, you know, the messenger and the message, you know, become linked and everybody can point to that. And they're 100% absolutely right. But it's not, it's not out of mouse. It's, there is a point to it. I wish in some cases they're, you know, you want everything in one body, and you're not going to get it. Right, right. No, no individual is going to embody him in everything. But at the same time, he has this knack of bringing others along to other voices. And he promotes that he pushes that. And he does it graciously. I see this kind of moving along. And the thing I kind of worry about is that the ideas we're talking about are going to grow and balloon so large that no one individual is going to be able to kind of orchestrate some of this stuff, is that one organization isn't going to be sufficient. Oh, yeah. Yeah, from your lips to God's ears. There need to be millions of men doing this. You know what I mean? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In different ways. Right, in different ways. For expression of masculinity. Yeah. And so an interesting thing is Anthony has never had an issue with any of the speakers going and talking at other conventions, as long as they weren't competing directly with 21C. And that, that's just a straight business. We are horrible about it. We don't need to compete, isn't it? Absolutely. And where there have been issues with this, it has been a very serious broach of faith, of trust, of relationships. They were betrayals. And in particularly when they were absolutely pointedly decided to be so. Yeah. The decision was made. Shameful. Yeah. Absolutely fucking shameful. And a lot of it's ego. This doesn't need to be that way. No, it absolutely does not. And so I look forward to the day in which we can have not only other conventions, other ideas, and not be competitive in nature, but supporting and synergy between the groups. How can we work together? How can we share? How can we relate? How can we ally and support each other? Yes. How can we network? How can we coordinate? And to grow a tribe beyond 150 relationships. Because that's that thing, you know, and... Which we have the capability to do now. And in quite honestly, you know, we talk about the messengers. You can have different messengers saying the exact same things or groups of men. But I think their personalities and the leadership styles lend a different cultural influence in hand. Yeah. And we need to find it. It's almost like, you know, a religious experience, you know, shopping for your church, you know, that sort of thing, you know. And I don't mean it just in a religious way, you know. It could be a financial issue. It could be a nutritional help. Yeah, exactly. Whatever it is. Whatever it is. Going into the marketplace and finding the thing that suits your needs. Right. Yeah. And in many cases, I think there's almost too many different things going on. Sometimes in these conventions, because you don't have a chance to really dive deep. Yeah, walking like between conversations in the hallway, conversations by the pool, individuals meeting two conventions, you know. Which was the power of the Patriarch Convention. Okay. Okay. You know, so it's meant about fathering. It's no longer about all these others. Oh, sure. Yeah, it's all directly followed. That's for 21C. Got it. But I can see eventually that kind of factoring out where you have a specialty breakout conference for, you know, within the other summits of specific. Or an afternoon. You know, like this afternoon, we're covering this set of topics with this feature. Correct. So you know, you know. Okay, so I'm interested in finance and fitness and fathering. Yeah. And one of the things I like too is the notion of the breakout workshops, where you can go deeper. And the thing that I really like about that is that they're not filmed. So you have a discussion, you have a talk. They get a sense of who you are. And now you don't have to stand in front of a microphone and be filmed and ask a question, or even try to, you know, God forbid. Be present in front of a crowd. Yeah. And then I'm trying to say something that doesn't look foolish and ask a question or whatever. And then more importantly, even at the same time, having a discussion. You know, so that was really kind of neat, you know, and being able to talk. You hosted a workshop, didn't you? I did. I did. Yeah. And it was really interesting. I actually was concerned that the guys, because I intentionally avoid the notion of violence, right? You know, I bring it up and I talk about the risks and everything else. Yeah. Like you said earlier in our conversation, like let's avoid that as a societal outcome. Yeah. It's a societal outcome. And I didn't want the non-film portion to be, hey, what's your recipe for syntax? By the way, guys, if you put these two products together, you know, if you place this here, and I did not want that. Don't Google that. Yeah. Don't Google that. You know, and, but somebody did talk about when do you defend yourself? And I even said there is that threshold. There is a moral responsibility. And even the law acknowledges that. Correct. Religion acknowledges that. A moral military acknowledges that. Yeah. But the thing is it's already baked into the cake, right? As a society. We have these laws and regulations and the military is constrained by military law. Sure. Okay. With civilian oversight. And some amount of international law as well. 100%. But when you act independently. Yes. You are 100% responsible for that. And man, that is some really thin ice out there. Yeah. Really thin ice. For many reasons. Yes. And the risk. You know, so one of the things I sat down and told the patriarch group. Have you had to talk about what's your family going to do when they lose you? And we know your wife is going to remarry, right? We know in the military we talk about Jodi, the guy who's sleeping with your wife all year deployed. What do you think is going to happen when you're down? We also know in the military it's not uncommon for guys who serve closely, even like let's say police forces. Guys that serve closely together when you lose a partner. That your former partner and your spouse get together out of related trauma. And it's terribly human. You can feel skeezy about it. You can sit up and end a very real human issue. This is how we resolve pain and trauma and all sorts of stuff. Are you willing to have that conversation? Are you really okay with saying, hey, because my willingness to serve my nation and take up arms. I'm going to turn my wife into a single mother. And my children are going to have all the effects. This is what you have at risk. This is what's at stake. If you choose violence, it's not a conversation about men who join the military. Men who choose violence as their preferred means of resistance. What if that doesn't go well for you? What about your family? That's what we're talking about as opposed to military service members. Yeah, absolutely. But let's go there for a second. And because it was one of the things I wanted to talk about I didn't. We had service members killed on the Afghanistan withdrawal. One of the most egregious was a young man who had a new one that was due to arrive. And I look at this from a men's rights perspective. It was like, did that young man need to go? No. And the answer is no. Could somebody have served his place? Right. Do I fault his command? No. But at the same time, I fault the higher command. If that we have a nation that hasn't looked at that and said, you know what? You're deploying into a combat zone. You're in a combat position. You're expecting fire. And as an American value, we're pulling you offline so you can see your job. And we're going to send somebody else instead. Oh, okay. Yes, I'll add some nuance to that. Not the nuance of that would be like, I don't know. I haven't served, but I don't know if you can say like, well, we're going to provide exceptions for service with men who have new warrants coming or just born like within whatever some, let's say arbitrarily six month window. I think I don't know if you can do it. But I know what you can do is you can say the leaders of the military hierarchy up all the way up to the commander in chief, take accountability for the loss of every single human life due to their incompetence. And so like, you may not be able to say to prevent the man from being killed. But you can say my failure of leadership is why this man was killed. And I take personal accountability for that and to feel the grief of that, of the loss of that man and the child that will never know his father and to have some compassion and something. I will take it one step further. Please. I think as a nation, we have an obligation to that mother and to that child to step into their lives and support them. That's right. That's right. Very much like how Jeff Younger was talking about when you see a service member deploy, who moans their lawn? Who's taking care of this? Who's making sure their kids are getting to karate class or Boy Scouts or Girl Scouts or whatever the case may be. And as a society, I think we have an obligation to do more than just agree to a widow and say, my condolences. Right. Yeah. Men are expected to be superheroes. Those are a myth. Right. But men are also disposable. Like square that for me. Right. You know what I mean? You have to be the superhuman thing who's able to do all the things and man up and when we tell you to. But when we don't need you, whatever. Sorry. Well, and the other one is I was struck by the image of the female Marine as well that was killed that days before. She's literally cradling a child. And this isn't just an enlistment. She's an NCO, a non-commissioned officer in the Marine Corps. Skilled, competent, dedicated. And she literally in her social media post just prior to her death says, I love my life. I love what I do. And I look at that and go, that's the greatness of our country. You know that we have individuals like that, men and women, serving in our armed forces, doing exactly that. And I never knew her in life. Sure. But I think she's that memory of her and what she did through her death. And that's not lost on it. And I think there's something to be said tremendously about that. I'm so grateful that we have this platform to talk about these issues as men, you and me, 21 or four, 21 convention, because these conversations aren't really happening in the same out in the world or aren't happening in the same way, framed in the context of masculinity. Try to tweet that. And in all honesty, I tried. There were a number of times. And it just, it falls flat. And then you, and I see this and it bothers me because, and the reason, one of the reasons I'm bringing up now is because I know that this is a platform on which others will see. Is that I felt impotent in my inability to tongue that, to speak that truth, that it just, it didn't give that weight, that sense of loss, that sense of value and appreciation. And I know there are other men and women out there doing that today, you know, that stand ready to do that. They're volunteering. I'm just dumbstruck by that. I'm dumbstruck that after all this, we still have people willing to do that. Mm hmm. Yeah, we've got several powerful social media outlets, Instagram, you know, Twitter, et cetera. YouTube escalates that, or TikTok is a small form. YouTube escalates that to long from video podcast, escalates that to long from audio. Right, absolutely. But there's still something incredibly powerful about getting together in person to have these discussions, that, you know, by breaking down these digital walls and actually being face to face. Well, and I would say our conversation right now is kind of reflective of some of the things that we would probably have with a drink in our hand. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, completely, you know. Exactly. And I just, I long for it my own personal life. I look forward to it. And it's one of the reasons why I just keep coming back. Yeah. And I joke with the Anthony, it's like, whether you have me up or not, I just want to attend. Yeah, exactly. One way or the other. Just to be here. One way or the other. Yeah, I just want to touch on one more issue. It had come up earlier and the thought was in my mind that we have all these men doing all these different things with masculinity. How do we get them all going in the same direction? And the word that came to mind is harmonize. We don't all have to be singing the same note. In fact, we shouldn't be singing the same note. How do we take everything that we're all singing together with the different themes? And how do we bring them together into one chorus for maximum volume? It's interesting. I think it's very much like driving. You know, when you're first starting to drive, you're not looking past the steering wheel. Like it's literally what's two feet in front of the bumper. Right? And I think there's a lot of men that are focusing on their specific issue and they're looking just at that, just right in front of the car. And when we start getting more people on the road, we're worried about bumping in each other and there's going to be a degree of that. But I think when we think aspirational, we're looking way down the road. And it's so much easier to drive a car when you're looking way down the road and responding in time with things much further out. And so I think if we're going to harmonize, we need to think aspirational. What are our real goals? What does success look like? Hmm, that's a vision. Yeah, it's a vision. And so for right now, I would sit down and say, the manager here has very much lacked that. We were looking inward what we want, what we want to gain, but we're not looking at something. The necessary stage of the journey. We're not looking at like between two people, there's a relationship. There's you, there's me, and then there's the relationship. We're not looking at the relationship and where does this relationship want to go, this energy? And so how do we bring other people into the relationship? I think we've kind of, in many cases, lost a narrative of where's this kind of arc going and what are we truly looking to achieve? And I think if we're going to have a group of men that are concerned about that, that kind of needs to be answered. It needs to be identified clearly. And I think that message needs to be created and then, I don't want to say profess, but it needs to be released to the propagated. Yeah, propagated. Yeah, it was a great word. And I think we're missing that component. Get that right, and you're on top of a rocket. You are on top of a rocket. Sounds amazing. It is, it is. I hope to take that right. I hope to, and I see that living in Central Florida where it's almost kind of like watching NASA. I'm not involved in that, but I get to watch it. And there's something magical about watching a rocket take flight. All this energy and technology, all in a little thing at a distance, and all the hopes and ambitions are the thing just sort of watching and going and going and going. And you know it's not safe until that final separation and you know it's hit orbit. And there's something about watching that crest over the horizon, into the darkness, and just saying Godspeed. Thank you, Socrates. Thank you. This is Will Spencer with a Renaissance Amend here with the new 21 Report. And Socrates, thanks for watching.