 This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here for the new 21 report. I'm sitting here with Eric Carroll. Eric, thanks for being here with me today. Hey Will, thank you so much man. So what was the title of your talk today? So I did something I don't normally do. I talked a little bit about my personal story. You know, I've been doing the podcast for about two years now. Dad talked today. A lot of people don't know why I got into it. I've experienced it and I'm experiencing it now. It's been about three years since I've seen my daughter. So I wanted these men to hear a little bit about what that journey was like. One thing that I've realized, you know, that I didn't know before is we tend to think that our cases, nobody else is going through it or nobody can understand what it is I'm going through. Almost everybody's case is exactly the same. You know, a few details might be switched around with some of the names, but the tricks and some of the obstacles that they're having to overcome are very similar. And I think men are afraid to speak. They've been told, you know, just man up, get over it, put on your paintings. I see that kind of stuff inside the community all the time. Ticks me off. But when they hear other men speak, hey, I've been going through these issues. This is what I've been experiencing. You've been through that too. You know, when we start fostering a community where people feel safe to come with like-minded individuals. So just trying to kind of tell people what was going on with that and encourage them to speak up and use their voice. How did you find that the audience of men received the things that you were saying, were they receptive? Were they like, oh my gosh, you're telling my story too? Yeah, really, really good. A good bit of the fathers, well, I say fathers. A good bit of the men that I spoke to after the conference that came up to me speaking are men that are not fathers yet. They were just like, hey, look, I'm about to get into a marriage or I've been wanting to do this. And like I've been hearing all these different battles. What would you suggest for me to do to keep myself out of this and some of that? So, you know, those are really a lot of the people that we need to be reaching. Because once you're going through it, it's already too late. If we can reach our men and kind of tell them some of the obstacles that they could face later on, prevention is better than the cure. You find that they get that like, oh, yeah, no, I can, you give them actionable intelligence. Yeah, you know, and I think for the most part, most of these guys, they know some of it's been through it, even if they haven't been through it themselves. And I think that's why you're seeing a lot of them not wanting to get into relationships. We see the big town community and know I understand why men are going their own way. You know, when you see what you can get into in the family law battle and how your kids are used as a weapon, you know, marriage is at a very big decline right now. Divorces at the lowest has ever been and people have been celebrating that like, hey, man, nobody. But what it is, a single parenthood is on the rise. Nobody's getting married anymore because they know what happens when you let the government get involved, right? So bringing that awareness out and letting them know, be careful because the consequences can be severe. How did it feel getting up on stage and kind of sharing your personal side of the story? It must sounds like a big risk. It's scary. Yeah. Honestly, it's it's scary. You know, I never inspired to be a podcaster. I hate public speaking. It's just not my thing. But I realized early on, like I went through these things for a reason. I can sit there and take it. I can become another statistic or I can turn that pain into purpose. And what I want to do is turn that pain into purpose and get out there and encourage these guys, look, man, you're not alone. A lot of us are facing these issues. But when you're going through these dark moments, I truly believe you might not even know it. That's where you're finding you're calling, you know, a lot of times when you're in the heat of the moment or you're in that fire right there, you're being molded for something that you might not even know is coming. So I think one of the most common questions we get asked is like, how do I get in here? How do I get involved? Well, sometimes I mean, I can't tell you that because I don't know where your talents is or how you're going to get involved. But when that moment hits and you know what it is you want to do and how you want to get involved, I think it's sometimes you just got to wait for that right moment. Can you describe like when that moment happened to you? Yes. So when I was going through this, I had I was a single father and I had just got out of a divorce, got into a new relationship. And it was a disaster. I started talking to a family law attorney. The first one I went to charge me $400 to consult with him for an hour. His advice to me afterwards was, you're a dad, you're not going to win in court. It's cheaper to keep her and you need to go get back with her. That's not happening. So go to the next attorney. And you get one of the greatest cases I ever heard. We can get you whatever it is you want. I need $10,000 in retainer to get started. And it was at that time I started seeing what Family Court was about. And I started going back to all those issues that I've been through. I started reaching out to people in the community, telling them about my case. And I found out there's more like minded people that have been through these same situations than I ever knew. But they just needed to hear that somebody else was going through it too. And that's when, you know, I kind of got the idea of the podcast and all that pain that I had experienced in the past through the divorce, through the alienation and everything. There was days that I just didn't want to wake up. It's like, man, I don't want to do this. God, why did you create me for this? But now when I'm sitting here speaking to these men and say, I get it now. You know, I was going through it for a reason. What was it like when you sat down to do your first podcast and kind of start putting all these things into action? Absolutely horrifying. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, having to sit there on the screen, not knowing how it's going to be taken. I'm I think the worst evaluator of yourself is yourself. So you're always going to be harder on yourself. Second guess in yourself. I didn't know anything about cameras. I didn't know anything about live streaming or anything. So learning that process was it was intimidating. But over time, you know, you just keep working at it and you you learn. So you said you haven't seen your daughter in three years. Talk a little bit about that. That's sorry. Yeah, it's a rough one. So I mean, I've got custody of my other three daughters. I got four daughters total. And it was that one case because I couldn't afford to go through the system. She's got the upper hand, unfortunately. I think that's the case for many of these men. We hit the or we get a lot of the moms to crowd and they show up and try to say, hey, this is happening to moms, too. This is an agenda issue. And I say, you know, 82.5 percent in the time, dad's going to be without custody of his kids. And he is sitting in that chair for nothing more than just being a man. That's the sad thing about this. We don't have any legislation that protects a quality for these men in the family courts. So I'm hoping that change. We're starting to see people a little bit more receptive than they were in the very beginning. We still got a long way to go. Have you gotten a chance to interact with some of the other speakers here at the convention? I have, which Jeff Younger, he's one that's been on the podcast several times. We actually he came on the show. He's got the gag order. He's not even supposed to be talking about it. And they brought our podcast into his court case and everything. But talk to Jesse Lee Peterson. I really enjoyed his talk earlier. And Carnell is a good friend of mine, a paternity fraud expert. But, you know, it's neat just to see all these other speakers and see the different angles. You know, I've learned a lot over the weekend. I really have. Who's another some of the speakers are in this field of paternity fraud and in some of the divorce. So have you have you spoken to any of the speakers who maybe might have been unfamiliar to you before showing up? Some of the new guys in the Manisphere, maybe? Yes, I think Jesse was about the only one I've gotten to speak to. I know most of these guys that are here, but just sitting there and listening to him talking about forgiving your mother and all the others. So I haven't ever really thought about it anyway. You know, I think that's the good thing about coming to these and hearing the different angles that people bring to it. Because I get so consumed with fathers. Right. That I don't get to hear it just from like the Manisphere. You know, I'm still kind of new to what's going on in the Manisphere. But, you know, I get it. I get it when I hear it. And, you know, I needed to start tuning in a little bit more. What have been your impressions of the men who would be attendees? Have you gotten to spend time with them outside of the men who came to your talk? Every one of these men seem like very good men. They're just, you know, a lot of them are wanting to start families. But they don't know where or they're skeptical of what's going to happen. And they're going to end up like somebody like me talking about what I am. And that's the sad thing about it. Everybody wants love. Every everybody wants to have a family. And, you know, maybe not everybody, for the most part. I think most of us do. And just knowing that they're up against these obstacles. That's the sad thing about it. But for the most part, I mean, we talked to people all across the country that came to this event and really, you know, gives you a lot of hope. There's there's some guys out there that are really starting to pay attention and making sure that they're they're covering themselves. Some members of the public or speakers or political leaders or just the general attendees, like last night we were sitting there eating supper. I was talking to a guy. He was, you know, he's wanting to become a father now. I was just talking about some of the different precautions that he's wanting to take and everything. And it was like, you know, it's good hearing that because I'm a father of four daughters. I couldn't have a son. So, you know, I get claimed all the time, like, you know, you hate moms or you talk down on moms, like, couldn't be further from the truth. I got these four daughters. I hope that, you know, they're going to be beautiful mothers one day. And I'm going to try to guide them as I can. But I realize what's going on with our boys and what's going on with our man and being able to step outside of that and speak, you know, I don't think that boys get enough focus. Girls are told from the the time they're born, like how they should be treated by a man. But we rarely go and tell our men or boys how they should be treated by a woman. Right. And that's really where I think a lot of the problem is. Now, you know, there's the 22 conventions going on at the same time, which is a conference for make women great again as the tagline. Have you gotten to interact with any of the female attendees or speakers? Even I got to sit in one presentation. And that was pretty cool. It was actually when Anthony was speaking. OK. And so one of the attendees, I think they got a little hot about what was going on. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. You know, that's that's the sad thing about it. In the culture that we live in right now, it's so polarized and people are so easily triggered and we've left all conversation, you know, completely off the table to be able to speak and listen to what that person says rather than react. But you know, just watching how that reaction went and shows you how strong that feminist narrative is right there, you know, and push them back at it and how how easily someone can be gas lit when they hear something opposite of what they would truly be thinking about, you know, but that that was that was pretty neat. Have you gotten to interact with some of the other women there or or get a sense of the of the event outside of that? Or no, I haven't. I haven't got to. Now, Melissa Isaac, I know she spoke on there at the same time that I was speaking over here on this stage. She's a savage. She's a savage. I'll probably have to go back and watch that one. But yeah, I need to get out there and, you know, interact with people a little bit more. But from what I was saying, just an amazing event so far, you know, people that's wanting to raise awareness. When you started speaking out about these issues, did you expect anger, hate, accusations, blame or was that a surprise to you? Yes and no, I expected it to come from the ones that are kind of profiting off of the system or that it, you know, that it kind of goes in their favor. I didn't expect it to come from the same side of the aisle. That's that's what's really starting to bother me now. As bad as the feminists and stuff can be, I see more men being critical of other men more than anything. And I guess that's the way they've been accustomed or they've been trained, you know. And that really hurts me because some of these guys are going through some of the worst challenges in their life and they need somewhere to come and vent and we're just completely turning them away. But that's that's probably one been one of the main things. And, you know, this this issue I do not believe is at the mainstream yet when it comes to men's rights, when it comes to father's rights. And as it starts to gain steam, I tell people, you got to be careful because you can do a million things right. You do one thing wrong. That's what you're going to be remembered for. They would love nothing more than to find one little thing that they could sit here and just cancel out everything that we talked about this past weekend. And that's just the reality and the way that the media and everything set up right now and be so easy to do and put it past. Yeah, it's kind of disappointing to feel like, yeah, I should I expect to go to war and to deal with the opposing side coming at me. But behind my own what I would presume to be friendly lines, it's so unfortunate, you know. But maybe it's because the issue hasn't hit the mainstream yet that many men are aware of it. I don't know if it's that, you know, I don't know if what I see men want to be leaders, you know, men want to be leaders. And we have several different organizations going on. But I think if they can't be the spotlight, then it's like, you can't see them unifying. And that's that's the hard part about it. That because there's so many of us that are going through this feminist. Most of them can even stand to look at each other. But if they get behind a cause together, they'll fill those streets out there. I mean, completely fill them. And that's one thing that I believe like the men's rights movement, father rights movement really need to take a page out of their book. We need to come together. We need to be able to organize. I mean, we got one of the biggest issues, I think, of this generation, and it should be treated the same way. But I think that can kind of get in the way sometimes that egos as some people want in the spotlight and stuff like that. I think that's where a lot of the criticisms and stuff come to you. Criticism is about the men's rights movement in general, like the egos involved. Yes. What do you how do you see bringing men together as a larger question? Because we're here at a conference where men are coming together and it seems to be working OK. But obviously, you know, egos aren't necessarily involved in the same way. How do you help bring men together? Or what are some of your tips for doing that? You know, I think, again, just, you know, trying to provide that positive community where they know what's going on. But then again, reaching them, it's media like what Anthony's doing and what you guys are doing right here, letting them know that there is a community out there. Most of them don't know. Largely, it goes not represented in the mainstream. And the more that we can sit there and get that awareness out and let them know about resources and places that they can learn like 21 Studios Dad talk today, I think you'll see that really start to catch and stay. Can you contextualize sort of the scale of the problem? You said the issue hasn't hit the mainstream. I'm aware that the divorce industry is a huge deal. But for some of the men, you know, even women who are watching who may not have a good sense of what's going on, can you help provide some statistics or a picture to get like just how big of a problem this is? Family law is a 60 billion dollar a year industry that is more money than all of the other courts combined. I had no idea. OK, wow. Continue 60 billion, 82.5% in the time Dad will be without custody. There is other statistics. I just found out we reported on this last month that the new domestic violence statistics came out. Domestic violence happened last year to 3.5 million women versus 4.2 million men. Such a huge number. But you never see him on a billboard. You're never going to see a man, a man's domestic violence shelter. You don't see that because he's not looked at as a victim. He can't be a victim of that. And you know, if he does speak, they try to cancel that out to see what happened with Johnny Depp, you know, it was a big deal when they thought he had hit her. But when they found out it was her that hit him, you know, it's not really that big of a deal. These this should be alarming. This could be your son. This could be your grandson. It might not happen in this generation, but it's going to affect somebody you know in some way. And I think you're going to see groups like Ming Tao and other stuff just continue to get bigger because men aren't going to want to get married and they don't want to get married and they don't want to, you know, create life. I mean, we're kind of losing ourselves here at some point in time. We got to say, hey, there's a problem. Let's do something about this. So you talked about, you know, sometimes the fire is coming from the friendly side, especially out in the political realm. You come here, it doesn't really seem to be the case. You find a lot of sympathetic ears. Yeah. And that's it. And that's the good thing, you know, having people that you can come together and and talk to when you get this message out there. You got to realize that people are easily triggered. They hear something that completely challenges their morals and their beliefs. Right now, I think social media has got a lot to do with it. I think that the news has a lot to do with it. We talk about our differences more than the things in finding common ground right now between moms and dads. There should be some common ground right now with that the marriage rate that's starting to fall, single parents are on the rise, something's going on. There is there's room for conversation here. And but from what I've seen, yeah, here at this event, man, this is has been amazing seeing these guys come together and talk about the same values. Yeah, I love it. You can we stick it around for a while? Yeah, yeah, I'm going to be here until tomorrow morning. I got to get on back again, an event coming up next next week. We got to hit the road again. But I'm looking forward to it. Can you say maybe in your short time here what you've kind of got out of the gotten out of the experience here? Sounds like you already said some of it. Yeah, just, you know, seeing that there's more issues that are outside that of my own. So like I get so again, I'm stuck in that father's rights, equal shared parenting world. But there's so much more that's going on between that, you know? And sometimes I need to step outside and hear that, you know, and hearing some of this from these other men and what they're going through. It's definitely made me inspired to get out there and try to dig a little bit more into what's going on. That's excellent. Well, I'm really grateful you're here and I'm really grateful for your mission to wake men up to these challenges. And and I'm not personally a father yet, but I'm aware of the scale of the problem. I appreciate your contribution to making it better. So thanks so much, Eric. So you're going to get a prenup, right? I got to forget a girlfriend first and then we'll start thinking about that. There you go. Is that the guideline? Get a prenup? Get well. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I mean, I've heard different things about it, but it's not something that's really been on my mind at the moment. But if you have more to share on that, please. I mean, I'm not saying it's going to hold up in court, but at least make sure you get one if you do. Yeah, establish the boundary, right? The prevention is better than the cure. Yeah. Oh, thank you for that. I appreciate it. All right, man. Yeah. Thank you. This is Will Spencer from the Renaissance of Men here with the new 21 Report and Eric Carroll. Thanks so much.