 they're lying. And then the rest of us had to come in and go, exactly. Yeah, really the way it goes. So we scratched his nose. So I like the fact that you guys at least talk about that and acknowledge the whole idea of just because somebody does one thing doesn't mean they are completely, you know, off the rails. You know, if I'm looking to the right, it could just be because, you know, my friend is there and I keep looking over to them for a support. I like the fact that you guys all engage in those kinds of conversations. So, but okay, we're 12 minutes late now because May 13. So I'm ready. All right. Great. Great. We usually for half an hour. We cut all that out. All right. Everybody ready? Yep. Yep. Here we go. I'm Scott Rouse. I'm a body language expert and analyst and I trained law enforcement in the military and interrogation and body language. I just finished my first book for Callisto Publishing, which should be out, I think, in the fall, hopefully. And I'm also a keynote speaker and I speak at universities and companies around the world. Greg? I'm Greg Hartley. I'm a former Army interrogator, interrogation instructor, resistance to interrogation instructor, anti-terror, a whole lot of that other stuff. And then I'm a body language and behavior guy. I've written 10 books about body language and behavior. Today, I'm mostly tied up with business, corporate American Wall Street, and I have a book called The Most Dangerous Business Book You'll Ever Read. Okay. Chase? Hi, I'm Chase Hughes. I did 20 years in the US military and got out. Now I teach interrogation and behavior profiling to businesses and law firms around the world. I teach courses in enhanced persuasion and influence and I'm a trial consultant. Excellent. Mark? Hi there. I'm Mark Bowden. I'm an expert in human behavior and body language, help people all over the world to stand out, win trust, gain credibility every time they communicate, including some of the leaders of the G7. And we have a special guest today, Tonya Reiman. Tonya, tell us about yourself. Hi there. So I am Tonya Reiman. Yes, I'm the author of three books all on nonverbal communication as well as manipulation and we always say manipulation in a bad way. So I like to say manipulation is nothing more than showing someone something that they need to see and then pulling out their own bias. So I'm proud to say I help people with manipulation and I do so not only nonverbally when I do my speeches verbally when I tell people what they should and should not be saying and then also like I said, three books all to help people yet to where they want to be. Excellent. Excellent. Greg, you had a thing you want to talk about? Yeah. Well, I think war stories is what we really want to talk about, right? Every one of us here, Chase and I both have probably real war stories, but we all have war stories. Everybody tells something. And before even going to this thing today, I think it's important for us to say every time you open that war story, you're looking for misses. If I told you I ran over an ostrich in the road today, that might be good enough if you know I live near an ostrich farm, but otherwise I have to go back and edit that to make it believable as I go through. And if I forgot something every time I open it and edit it, I'm adding a little detail to it that the next time I tell that story, I have to inject that information and retell the story and that's going to generate some fight or flight in most people because they're uncertain how to be perceived. And I think we're going to see a fair amount of that in this story. And as we walk through it, I want to make sure we think about that from a war story front of it. And I'm sure you guys all have comments to interject to that. All right. Well, let's get right to it. Let's we're going to be today. We're going to be talking about Tara Reid and her interview with Megan Kelly. And we're going to talk about what we see happening in that. Now, as we go through this, keep in mind as professionals, as we do this for a living, there's no politics here for us. We don't lay on one side of the other when it comes to to tell what we see. If we see what we think is deception, we'll say we think this is deception because of this, this and this. If we see something we think is being is truth, we'll say we think it's true because of this, this and this. There's showing cues of being honest or truthful. So that's where we're sitting. So as we go through this, keep in mind, we're not on anybody side or anybody's team. We're going right down the middle and we call them like we see them every time. Okay. So that's that's where we're headed with this. So let's start with the first clip. It's fairly short. It was a day at some point that spring spring of 1993. Correct. Where you say Senator Biden and you had an experience in a hallway in one of the Capitol buildings. Can you describe what happened that day? Yes, I was this was during that time where I was kind of frozen out. So I was kind of surprised but she but Marianne came rushing in with this bag like a duffel bag or gym bag. She called it and said, you know, hurry the senator's already on his way. Just follow him and try to catch him before the Capitol and give him this. He wants his bag. I remember going down the Russell building floors and so I don't know if I was in the first floor of the or the basement, but there's corridors that lead to the Capitol and that kind of thing. And I was trying to catch up with him and this would have been on a week day. Okay. Chase, what do you got? So we right away we have the large inhale before she starts talking could be nothing could be something we would need to go to the baseline. One of the things I would think here is that she's a little bit exasperated and she's told this so many times and I think she's nervous. This is probably the biggest interview she's done in a while and right out of the gate. We have her start to use these feeling type of words where she's describing things in sensory terms where she says I was frozen out not cast out or kicked out or voted out. It was frozen out. So we're starting to hear her use some of these feeling words which may come in later and everything else looks pretty honest to me. I look for truth signals. I know Greg and Scott we come at it from different angles. I search for truth signals and the lack of truth signals and this one had mostly truth. All right, Mark, what do you got? Yeah, so I'm going to pick up on what Chase is saying there around the metaphor used there which is frozen out. So obviously ice doesn't actually exist in this situation. It's an idea of something else is imposed on an emotion and she also talks earlier on and later on about iciness as well. Now both of these iciness and frozen out frozen out of something means she's talking about a social situation. I just want to kind of lay that down that there's already talk here that this isn't necessarily about individuals. It's about groups with social mammals. So every time we think we're talking about individuals, we're not we're talking about members of groups and I just want people to keep that in their mind as we go through this that when we think we're seeing an individual, we're seeing a member of a group and they feel either part of the group or not part of the group. If they don't feel part of a group that can cause a huge amount of animosity and emotion. So it's going to kind of lay that down as a bit of foreshadowing. All right. Tony, what do you got? I love all that especially the foreshadowing piece because that's exactly what I picked up on. I mean, I do look at things along the lines of which way is she looking and bizarrely, you know, she looked to the left and to the right pretty much the same amount of time, but that does show to me remembering or maybe just not even falsifying but maybe putting pieces together that she doesn't fully remember. But I thought it was really important to note not just the words and how she responded, but also the look in our face. So when we see her at certain points, her head is tilting one side and primarily she tilts to the right. And at a certain point you see her start tilting to the left. And when that happens again, I go from baseline. So when you deviate from the baseline, that becomes a real red flag to me not to say she's lying, but just to say what happened? What did I miss? So it drives me crazy because I want to say to Megan. This is what you should have said next. This is what your next question should have been because if you would ask this question, will you be able to see a lot more? And that's my frustration. So that's my piece. Greg. Yeah, I think you're starting to see a pattern of remember I talk about war stories. And when someone has to recall the war story and figure out how it fits into their life, you're starting to see that pattern. If I tell you a story today and then I realize I'm going for my big show, I'm going to hit on some of the same things you guys hit on. This is a big show. This is Mark. You said it before a big camera. This is a thing where she realizes she's on the hot spot. She has to now tell the story in a believable way. So you're thinking of holes in your story, even if even if it's truth you're going to tell, because you're trying to dredge up all that memory. Watch your eyes. She's accessing left, right. And Tonya, I'm with you. I believe that the downright is this is an emotional thing. I think we're seeing that. But she's dragging information in. When she is injecting something or interjecting something she hasn't said yet, watch this. She locks eyes very closely. It's the inject she locks eyes on. It's not the stuff she's said a million times. And I know she's trying to make her story right. It doesn't mean she's lying. But if I were interrogating her or if I were questioning her to your point, I would certainly go ding. There's an indicator for me to wonder why and ask more questions doesn't mean she's lying. It means she has fight or flight around it and she's been trying to make this story fit. Excellent. The thing is bugging me the most about this is the edit. And there are several ads through here and I'll point them out. I can't help it because it gives me the feeling we're not getting the whole story. We're not getting the whole answer because there are differences when she's talking in the room sound between the edits which and she's talking a bit louder. Not a whole lot just a little bit. But that's what's happening and so that bugs me from the word go but that's not just to interrupt for one quick minute and tell you I saw that and it drove me crazy and somebody I mean we've all been on TV. So we always notice when there's a cut and a pace and that cut makes me crazy to because suddenly you see her in one frame and then you know that next frame isn't the next frame. It's a frame that's been cut and pasted and God knows where yeah right. Yeah but at the same time yeah so you recognize that it's put together and that is frustrating for people like us who have to kind of go into each space and say what's real what isn't what happened what didn't so thank you as we go along we'll see these edits get even more there there are multiple edits in very short amount of time but we'll get to that when it's important because there's so many of them. Yes I was this was during that time where I was kind of frozen out so I was kind of surprised but she but Mary Anne came rushing in with this bag like a duffel bag or Jim bag she called it and said you know hurry the senator is already on his way just follow him and try to catch him before the Capitol and give him this he wants his bag. I remember going down the Russell building floors and so I don't know if I was in the first floor the or the basement there's corridors that lead to the Capitol and that kind of thing and I was trying to catch up with him and all right so we all get everybody good on that one. All right let's move the next one. And this would have been on a weekday. Yes and I remember like my heels like my legs hurting a little and like you know there was just from walking really fast I remember things like that. And then I saw him at a distance. He was talking to someone and they they walked away the other direction and then he greeted me. He remembered my name and then I said you know here you go senator. I handed him the bag and it happened very quickly. I remember I remember being pushed up against the wall and thinking the first thought I had was where's the bag which is an absurd thought but that's what I thought the bag is the bag. All right so right on the gate this bugs me because I can tell she's been coached. Chase I know you can you can tell this as well Greg you can too. I'm sure you Tony and Mark you can see this as well. She's using terms that you have people use when you train them to say to recall to tell their story again. She doesn't use the the the I remember those two words anywhere except when she's talking about this specific thing and she's telling stories where she were things that happen and she's walking her through you know different parts in the in the entire interview especially at the first but never did but within a two minute period she says I remember seven times and then once more later on that's the thing that that that bugs me to death and then these are she's coming to stopping points where she has sections she tells the story in sections and she comes to a point and her voice goes down and she stops and it starts again. I'll get into more of that as we go along because it gets even heavier up through here. Mark would you see? Yeah well the same this how many I haven't counted how many times we hear the word I remember remember but this is clearly an important thing that we understand as the audience of this that all of this is remembered. So that's clearly important so so initially I go what why do you need to know that why do I need to know especially that you really remember this are you worried that I'll I'm thinking you've made it up so okay Tanya what do you see? You know that's a good point the whole thing well I'm trying to just make sure I get the notes right but typically when she says I remember she looks for her left like when she goes I remember it tends to be a left look whether it's up side down but either which way on top of that if you notice in this clip this is where you see a little bit of preening and she also lifts her chin up so when you say coaching I think hmm yeah because you know you feel good about something what do you do you lift your chin up because you feel powerful right and then on top of that you've noticed that she shows that important feeling as if this is my moment and I'm going to get it right no matter what happens so a lot of times when we're looking at people we're thinking oh they're coached they're they're too positive here you can actually see the coaching and that's discouraging for me All right Greg what do you got? Yeah so a couple of things this one I see a lot of eye-accessing and Tonya I agree with you I think she's a left baseline for memory she's going to write for a handful of things and it's usually associated with feeling but when she's moving her eyes around that's a good sign I mean she's accessing something interestingly for me I call that I'm just a girl showing vulnerability when they uncover their ear yep yep yep you do it all the time it's I know it I know it and she she does it very effectively and honestly I think this is her starting her story because I think she's on her path as I've told you guys before she's covering her she uncovers her ear she starts to tell you about something that's real to her and she's using memory she's accessing something I don't think she's lying I think she's just starting to personalize herself yeah awesome okay chase where you got all right so we open the clip we've got two more sensory descriptions right out of the gate her feet are hurting she remembers being pushed up against the wall so more sensory descriptions of the scene and an interrogation and Greg and Scott you probably know this if it's if it's truthful and if someone's recalling something in sequence will continue to see that sensory reference so they'll continue though they may deviate a little bit but we'll continue to see that throughout the rest of the conversation get sensory feelings out of the rest of it the hair pushback I don't think was coached I think that was a natural genuine gesture that she was you know she's probably learned throughout her life makes people respond a certain way and I don't think it was deliberate like she thinks oh this is going to make me more innocent right and the the one thing she doesn't show emotion or recall when she's saying I remember so that tells me that there's some coaching involved and another reason that she could be told to say that is that if the facts are ever brought into question if I'm if somebody's coaching her's one of some one of us is coaching her if the facts are brought into question I didn't say it happened exactly like this I said I remembered it like this two caveats to what you said Chase one she acted out the being pushed back against the wall to which is a really good indicator when someone says he shook his finger at me and they don't shake their finger I go wait a minute hold on and the other one that fusible link thing I think is key that is denied ability that's that's coaching yeah but remember she's an expert witness is the last thing to remember but you know what that's something like physical it was a physical and she pulls herself back and that's nothing that I keep on to I'm like when you do that that's not something you get coached on that's literally that's just built in it's an inane thing you go again I got pushed on both and then your body moves backwards so I did see that as well and I thought that was important and this we've been at a weekday yes and I remember like my heels like my legs hurting a little and walking really fast I remember things like that and then I saw him at a distance he was talking to someone and they they walked away the other direction and then he greeted me he remembered my name and then I said you know here you go senator I handed him the bag and it happened very quickly I remember I remember being pushed up against the wall and thinking the first thought I had was where's the bag excellent anybody else are we good? All right let's go the next one was where's the bag yeah because I was handing it to him and he had his hands under underneath my clothes and it was it happened all at once so he had one hand underneath my shirt and the other hand I had a skirt on and he like went down my skirt and then went up and I remember I was up almost on my tippy toes and when he went inside the skirt he was talking to me at the same time and he was leaning into me and I pulled this way away from his head I remember and so he was kissing my neck area and he whispered did I want to go somewhere else in a low voice he said some other things I can't remember everything he said but he said something vulgar and I asked what all right Tony what do you got okay so once again we see the hair flip and I think that's true as a woman I can speak to this we often just go you know or like this you know or I might just one day you know go like this it's we have long hair so a lot of times it's part of what we do it just it is a comforting gesture there's no doubt about that we do it because it makes us feel better right but on top of that when we look this is the first time well not the first time but for this clip we see an increase in her blink rate which if you watched her throughout her blink rate was pretty stable here we see her do like an eyelash flutter she her rate increases and then as she talks you can see she physically pulls herself up and to the right so once again we're talking about how she's telling the story and almost acting it out for herself not necessarily to look believable but because she's reliving that experience and this is where I thought to myself hmm when she says this and her head tilt a little bit more than it typically does once again those are signals because if you watched her her head tilted primarily to the right and on certain occasions you would see that tilt go a little bit deeper and then it would go to the left so you were like scratching your head like what's right and what's wrong but here we see her head tilt a little bit deeper and with the other pieces I think that this was organic I think it was genuine I don't think it was poached Okay, Chase what do you got? Completely agree with the blink rate we saw the blink rate go up and for the for you watching this if we start blinking more often so blink rate is just how often not really how fast so if our blink rate goes up that's typically a stress indicator and the newest most recent research on deception shows that blink rate drops during the lie and has a sharp increase after the deceptive point and we see this she's reliving something that was a stressful event and the blink rate confirms it and we see lots of movement here as well with the the chin boss as she's starting to recall some of this stuff so this was this was a genuine statement okay Greg, what do you got? Yeah, I think that when you see the blink rate increase because of stress I think it may be related to the fact she's now divulging more detail than she's divulged anywhere else and we're back to that I've got an inject I've got information I'm worried about watch the hypnotic gaze she's looking right at her right? Yeah, because she's afraid of how this is going to be perceived whether how good the details are our memories distort delete and generalize things so whatever she has to bring forward is suspect at this point look at us we're all looking at her and she's keenly aware of that so she's keeping eye contact to make sure how it's being perceived I think that causes her blink rate to increase chase in this case because there is fear there is fight or flight there I guarantee you her if you could test hormones right now you would get all kinds of stress hormones in this case Matt, completely agree and I also think that recognize the idea that just like with any of us or with any natural human being right as we're on autopilot typically yes when we're first in any kind of engagement we're really self aware right? we're we're just right there and we're recognizing all of our own movements and statements and we're really hyper aware but as time goes on it's impossible it's it would be so attiring to keep up on all those things that suddenly you cannot recognize where's my outgoing how many times my blinking in my shlumping and you know all these things go out the window so as time goes on in the interview you also and I think we'll discuss this I'm sure you'll bring this up but you know we start to fall back on what we are trying to keep sustained and that's when you start to really recognize where the signals are one of the things I think is great and that's a good call out Tony one of the things I think is great about this group is each of us is capable of reading each other and yet we're not worried about it we're just sitting here talking and that's hard for people to do that know that we can do this but I think we all have learned yeah yeah so what and and right right all right mark where you see it yeah so my guess this is some people you know maybe watching this right now maybe what you're thinking is but she's acting you know she's putting on a good show I've got some experience around this I've trained actors all over the world and some of them have won Oscars so I know really good actors and I know how they do what they do and I can help them do what they do to be able to drift into that emotional recall as she just did then and do it when it just kind of flows in and then suddenly peaks that's super hard to do as an actor most actors even really good ones will actually steer past the emotion it's it's too awful for the body to take and what they'll tend to do amateurs or even good enough professionals they will avoid the pain the pain for her flows up and then peaks immediately and and after that she she wouldn't be in control of that if it's a real feeling she'd have to try really hard to suppress it or it would just come so if she's acting she she's beyond the capability of most really good actors right now don't let her watch out was that it? yeah so so you can play your own song look you know some she could have been lurking in the background as a as an Oscar winner yeah somewhere but that is super unlikely because the amount of training you have to take in order to do what she just did then I don't think she's done that training so I'm going to say that emotional recall that happened there was absolutely true and what we're going to see later on is it's true enough with somebody live in the room that they start to have full empathy for her we'll start to see our interviewer there go red in her eyes just like she's doing we'll see the emotions become contagious it's good enough to do that to somebody who's actually trying to stay quite reserved at the moment so if it's a performance it's an unbelievable performance which I would therefore say it's not a performance it's the real thing okay I think she's told this story so many times she sees her stopping points there waiting for Megan's emotion that's when she's told this story she tells it and people go oh my gosh and then they start talking as she's ending that little that little she's almost waiting on that as that happens almost to reassure that she's heading down the right road or doing the right thing but Megan doesn't give her that at the same time again we're seeing an edit in there we may not be seeing it but there's an edit in there and again you can hear the difference in her in her voice volume when it's when it ends and when it starts again and that that again bugs me the editing in this is is atrocious actually bugs me too so I'm glad that you bring that up because I feel that same kind of emotive like suddenly you go come on now I know yeah yeah I know that but yes I agree thank you thank you thanks and that is good right so I'm going to keep doing it bugs the squad out of me all right everybody good was the bags the bag yeah because I was handing it to him and he had his hands under underneath my clothes and it was it happened all at once so he had one hand underneath my shirt and the other hand I had a skirt on and he like went down my skirt and then went up and I remember I was up almost on my tippy toes and when he went inside the skirt he was talking to me at the same time and he was leaning into me and I pulled this way away from his head I remember and so he was kissing my neck area and he whispered did I want to go somewhere else in a low voice I can't remember everything he said but he said something vulgar and did I ask what all right let's go to the next one and did I ask what he he said I want to fuck you and he said it low and I was pushing away and I remember my knee hurting because our knees he he had opened my legs with his knee and our knees caps clashed so I felt like the sharp pain his fingers were inside of my private area my vagina and it wasn't there was no small talk there was no like pre-sub there was it was just sudden and it was happening like that and he was saying that to me saying those things to me and I was pulling away all right Tonya what do you get? okay so a few things here while she's talking several times so she says I remember my knees hurting I felt a sharp pain and then again this is one time that she goes up to the left so it's a little bit of a strange encounter but you know again sometimes we remember and sometimes we just need we remember but we fill in the blanks on here though I noticed that she does two things number one she has this like extended eye closure so when you're talking and you go I remember that it's one of two things either you don't want to show what you're feeling you don't want the world to know that you are potentially exaggerating being deceptive or feel anxiety but on top of that it's also to keep out the negative feelings that you're experiencing at that moment but on top of that what I noticed was once she does that she tilts her head like you see this little tilt and then she goes like this but it's very minute so you have to be looking for that slight head negation and that's again we're looking at contextually what she's doing so she's either shaking her head like this like I don't want to remember this because her eyes are closed or it's a red flag it's one of the other so we have to look at the big context and we can do that in the big at the end of this but you know there is the two things the subtle things the eye closure the extended eye closure and then that slight head negation that put me on to a hmm question okay cool mark yeah so I want to follow up again on on ideas around why this isn't acting on why it isn't made up have you been to a film and it's taken one two three four five people to work out what's happening in a specific moment of a scene on the whole what an actor is trying to do is tell you a really clear narrative and a really really clear emotional journey that flows really smoothly it may be like a bit of a roller coaster but it's very clear where we are and what's happening and the very fact that it's taking us to go well I think there's this little thing happening here and this happening over here and that doesn't quite fit with that means that look if this is absolutely made up and fully fully rehearsed then it's a really bad job of making stuff up and fully fully rehearsing it because it's quite confusing emotionally what's going on at the moment and people are pretty confusing or they're pretty complex so there's a level of complexity here that anybody who was interested in putting on a good story and rehearsing it well there's a level of complexity here that they wouldn't be trying to achieve they'd be trying to achieve something way simpler to understand way better and more smoothly delivered Excellent, Greg what do you got? Yeah, again here red flaggy I watched this thing four times before I finally said okay I believe her mostly because I kept seeing this piece where she would hypnotizingly stare when she's telling information before I started to analyze that she's also accessing until she comes to it and then look at the story that she's told her entire life that's repetitive that's that left auditory cue right I'm listening I'm paying attention to something I've said something I've repeated over and over and over my favorite piece of poetry it's how you memorize things and then this focus and this is what makes it difficult the staring focus and no accessing cues makes it awkward it makes you start to think why is she not accessing information but then when you go back and think about she is concerned that she will not be believed and this might be fact it might be what she remembers it might be what she's dredged up in the past few days as a memory but it might be exactly what how she remembers it she just has never said it and the perception of being mistaken for a liar is there and certain certainly the other piece is she's adapting when she's saying this I hear you know it will come comfort moves or adapters it's making the uncomfortable comfortable do something over and over and over humans all do it you can hear her rubbing her thigh which is a really classic one and her body starting to rock a little so I don't think most of the time that people are lying and they're trying to be hypnotic in their stare they also adapt that's not typical they want you to believe them so their hands are up and they're doing all of that I believe something happened the details need more to your point Tanya let me ask the question this would be a different interview of course maybe not as comfortable either so chase I agree with everybody here I think we saw another instance of the feeling words so as as as an interrogator and you're you're learning this watching right now we're listening for deviations from that so now you're learning you can do this in any conversation you start having a conversation we're listening for those those small little indicators and we're looking for a deviation from that later on in the conversation Greg is I could say the word obsessed with base lining behavior and fact that's what we're doing this bag developing that baseline and looking for changes in that change detection and saw the same squint which personally I believe was something if you have somebody recall traumas especially people who are coming back from combat you'll see a very similar squint and I think the eye contact was somebody coaching her and say alright terry remember you gotta make good eye contact you have to make eye contact in that interview I have that written as a myth at the top of my page in my notes she believes the myth but at the same time that myth is what keeps us going right so we all believe the myth and then again we go back to there's two sides oh don't believe the the whole concept that if you hold eye contact you're being honest but also don't believe that liars can hold eye contact it's it's all about so the bottom line is it it does all the back to base lining at least a minimum of information and you will you have to have some kind of idea of what somebody typically does and I think I said this earlier but I think that makes the point of when you're five minutes into the interview there's going to be a difference than when you're 25 minutes into the interview because by 25 minutes your brain is tired and you you just go back to autopilot so we're in five minutes you were like yes I have to keep that eye contact I have to make sure I'm looking and it's important but after a few minutes you start to just go back to who you are naturally and that's what happens no matter how much coaching you have and mark I know that you do this constantly and trust me I've I've done it with politicians and it's incredibly frustrating when you tell them what to do and then you watch them and you go are you freaking kidding me I told you 18 times do this and then you what you fell asleep why you were sitting on stage and I said don't do that and you did that but it's because they just kind of got tired mentally went back on to autopilot and forgot what they were supposed to do or couldn't keep up with what they were supposed to do so yeah well to that to that point to that point one of the things that I would be coaching or with exactly and do with people in her position is that the audience of this show they like the anchor that's why they tune in because they believe the anchor is something like them it holds their values so I'd be saying to train everybody to go you're going to lock eye contact with that anchor because the camera is going to pick up your eye contact with them and the audience are going to have a relationship with you through that anchor who they kind of believe they are or they share the same values so what's important is coming up is the anchor getting close to showing exactly the same emotion which means chances are the audience are there as well so chances are we've managed to shift the audience that likes this show and likes this anchor into an emotional state so this is a potentially a brilliant example of influence and persuasion where you take the nation or certainly the part of the nation that will watch this news show with you emotionally excellent all right now I've got two things and first off let me say I think if we broke into Mark's house and tied up his hands we wouldn't have to gag him I don't think you can talk without using without using his hands number one number two Italian is he? wait what? no no he's very far from not much very far from Italian yeah but but let's while we're talking about learning and Chase brought up the learning part of it as when Greg and I were putting together our online course we had this discussion about he started he was doing a thing on eye accessing on eye accessing cues and as we all know my problem with that is the research hear me out the research says nope doesn't work that's that's not what we're that's not what we're seeing that's not what's happening he said really I said yes so he got and all he goes let's go find somebody so we went out to in the hallway and he started talking to this guy and he said I'm going to make him do this this this and this I said have a big time let's see this of course he did he pulled it off and I was like you got to be kidding me because all the that everything says no I'm used to see it to approaching eye access cues as if they're always looking up here great but when they start looking over here something's up again it comes up that goes off their baseline and from and I know you look at different places from an emotional standpoint and from when you're recalling something from an audio stand audio standpoint but let's talk about that briefly we're all really briefly and clean that up so people understand that we're at at the spot I was at and I've always been like nope I'm not into that I understand it from a different perspective there's a there's a thing that goes down the nlp path that is completely radical that's scary yeah you can't no facts in it at all yeah you can't use any with any human human's body language is like a thumbprint because we are like little decorator crabs we go grab stuff and put it on us we turn ourselves into a unique thing and so you have to baseline and figure it out but if I ask you questions very quickly about hey what's your favorite song and you start rifling through your head I can figure out where you're going for that kind of memory that's right and then if I ask you to do some math yeah then you do some math I see where you're going your head for that if that's what you're doing there are specific for each time you do that that's what nobody goes the same place with not two individuals won't go the same place that's fact every person is different yeah the only one that I found that's pretty consistent is this eyes down right almost always I find people in an emotional state put their eyes down to the right and if you think about watching people their head then changes their entire posture because it offsets the balance of their body so you can see when a person's walking and their head is down cast down their eyes are cast down right it changes their entire posture and that's the only absolute I know in life the rest of these you have to poke on broad and find right chase your squish around over there what do you got yeah so that's that's I completely agree with Greg I've never seen research for it but I've seen evidence of it and I think there is a massive difference between academic based and results based there is a great casin in between there and I agree with Greg that this down right looking is you ask someone about a relative that they've lost in their life or you ask somebody about a bad situation that they've been through that will will typically see that movement okay alright just want to clean up real quick alright let's move on the next one was saying that to me saying those things to me and I was pulling away and then he pulled back immediately when he could see I wasn't complying I was obviously just tensed up and frozen and not kissing him back and I'm not going with him and he pulled back and he looked at me and he said come on man I heard you liked me and when he said that it was either I heard or I thought but I remember hearing heard when he said that I immediately started thinking what I did like how I brought this on like did I say something to somebody did I give an impression did I I was just my mind was racing and alright I think right in here we're seeing she's told the story so many times she's got stopping points as she tells the section of her story and that's what we're seeing especially when she says that my mind was racing she's almost sounds like she's almost confused of what's happening but she's trying to stay on that path that she's always already always taken telling that story so that's what that's looking like to me Mark what do you got yeah I just want to note that the editing here and how there's a specific point there that the producer goes back to Kelly to pick up on the start of her emotional journey watching this so there's already another play going on here around how the the interviewer is getting emotionally involved because that's the main way we as the audience are going to get emotionally entangled in this is through the interviewer not necessarily few through the interviewer so just you know check out that we're being taken on a journey on purpose here okay Tonya oh this to me was tremendous I agree one of the most frustrating things I think you might all agree is when you have the interviewer ask the question and then the interview we answer the question but they're not in the same box so the most important piece for me is how it's great to hear the answer and to recognize and to look at the cues but the most important piece for me is the response to the question so what I can watch somebody being so Megan Kelly is on the left and Tara Reid is on the right and I can see her response to the question to me that's the best time to read someone because now we have the answer that could very well be rehearsed so here what did we say we had she holds eye contact but then as she talks about come on she knits her brow she knits her brow in that way like it's almost she's reliving that she knits her brow she cuts down her chin so she's playing out Joe Biden's behavior right in addition to that then when she talks about things she's emphatic so she lifts her brows up and she's like don't you understand don't you get it so I saw a lot of playing and a lot of behaviors that were most likely real because she's reliving that experience and you see that again because when somebody is pretending they might tell you the story but they won't necessarily play out the scene so watching her doing all these little movements made me think hmm that could be a red flag again watching her knitter brow and then do that little sarcastic contentious almost smile and then having her look up like what how would you not believe what I'm saying if it's frustrating to me because I want to see them both on camera at the same time I don't want to see making Kelly reliving her past because I know her past I think most of us know her past so of course there's going to be that kind of mirror neuron bouncing off of mirror neuron I want to see Tara read when she specifically asked the question her reactions at that moment so this was good because I do think that she gave us a lot of information but at the same time it would have been better if they had a two camera angle for this specific question that's why that Joe Biden interview was so good because it was just bang bang and we watched the reactions during the ask who's asking the questions and we know there's no editing in there right there with Greg what do you got yeah later on there's a great example that Tanya and I agree with you I want to see them ramping up putting it in their head see whatever happens to the baseline when they're doing it but this is where I had an epiphany about what she's doing when I was watching the entire video right here when she's talking and she's accessing and then she makes a mistake of saying something differently than she said it in the past and there's that moment of blink rate increase and then she starts to work that language in very quickly and she turns and focuses and stares right in into Meg and Kelly's eyes that is the baseline change that she does if you go backward and look backward and forward you'll see anytime she's injecting data and she's uncertain that's exactly the look and here it was because she shifted word patterns from what she'd said in the past other than that it's a little bit this to me a little bit rehearsing a little bit practiced but to your point if I've said something a million times she asked me a war story from the Persian Gulf War I probably am going to have a little bit the same rhythm because I'm tired of telling the story right so a million times that one of the things I was looking for again because she has blue eyes so we're all looking at her pupils I kept looking for you know any kind of dilation is it is it constricting is it dilating I didn't see much of a change which I found to be very interesting actually because most unemotional amongst us would show some kind of change there was no deviation that that struck me also but here I I love what you just said you're right when you tell that story a hundred times suddenly you don't need to replay it if there's not going to be a lot of movement because you just know the story so well right it's right what's what's tearing you up over there Chase you look to you look like you had a little thing of not anger but something's bugging you what do you got not anger no please I think we see a lack of people dilation because she's under some serious lights like some heavy-duty big-time lights and that's just my my belief I think that there's some great stuff in this in this whole thing and I think that Greg was talking about making that inject where she wants to clarify I might have used a different word where she says come on man I thought you liked me or I heard you like me I mean I knew it was one of those two words that's when she's injecting that's when she's the emotion drops down a little bit and it's it's a lot more intense contact but we see her again she's using feeling words and as she's a feelings person but she experiences the world through feeling not sight and sound doesn't use those words very much she is narrating the story with her body she's narrating with her her body language and we we continue to see that nothing bug you did this this thing of that look like you were a little P.O. in there something maybe just your thing about something else but I saw that I was like yeah I can't wait for this nothing okay it's an off-screen okay was saying that to me saying those things to me and I was pulling away and then he pulled back immediately when he could see I wasn't complying I was obviously just tensed up and frozen and not kissing him back and I'm not going with him and he pulled back and he looked at me and he said come on man I heard you liked me and when he said that it was either I heard or I thought but I remember hearing heard when he said that I immediately started thinking what I did like how I brought this on like did I say something to somebody did I give an impression did I I was just my mind was racing and let's go to the next one impression did I I was just my mind was racing and in that moment I knew this was really bad I knew I was it was more than just like the assault it was really bad he was then angry right and I could feel it wasn't like yelling angry but like that hostility build and he pulled back and he was just looking at me directly and he said he pointed his finger at me and he said you're nothing to me you're nothing and I think I I think that's the hardest thing and I know people talk about the assault but his words those words stayed with me my whole life and as I've been trying to tell my story I kind of been torn apart trying to tell it those words come back and it's like it was it was not it was cruel so when he saw me obviously start to get upset by what he said he took me by the shoulders and he just kind of shook me almost like you know and said you know you're okay you're all right had you said anything to him all right there are a few things in here this is where I started getting nifty on this whole thing because as she's when she starts that crime when she starts to get emotional and crying I'm going back to Eggman on this four micro expressions there's one in there where she's when she's crying you see her smile like a full blown you know a smile not that big really bad but that's the part when I said you know what something's up here I think I called you Greg after that and so Senator Tune said shoot here's what's up and also when she says he was then angry she's talking like Yoda or something people don't talk that way I think what we're hearing is that that box of that that usually hear loping when somebody's telling it telling the story and it's it's them actually telling the story but in this case she's telling these boxes that she's pulled down in sections of that story she's been through it so many times she's trying to hit all of her specific points in here and like when she says it was cruel it was it was not it was cruel so when he saw me you know or he was cruel the way she says that there's something up with that there's something she's just hitting that point I have to say be sure you say it's cruel or you see you add that part she's told the story so many times that she's trying to keep those parts in there because she's been told they're they're important that's that's what looks like to me and got something else yes got one quick thing while you're saying that yeah if if revenge is your motive for something somebody did to you you might smile when you realize you've got their foot nailed to the floor yeah yeah but I think that's I that's what I'm I'll I'll show you what that micro expression but really they really tip me off big time mark what do you got yeah so this is where it gets more interesting for me because I think what we see here is her showing us what hostility looks like and what anger looks like or actually more specifically hostility that that targeted eye contact she gets locking the interviewer which will see later on from a several times helps us understand I think what she's thinking and feeling later on in the interview she calls it here hostility and she says here's the hardest thing you're nothing to me it was cruel you're nothing to me I think this is the actual problem this is what this is really about this is about being valued does she feel valued and so again I think we're going to see this played out later in this interview the idea of not being a part of the team being iced out being in the cold not being part of the group and the hostility around that and so I think you know ultimately at this point we start to get a clue as to what the real agenda might be around this now back to you know is she is she making up a story is she being deceitful here in any way that quivering that we see here very hard to do I'm not saying you can't do it you can do it for sure but it's super hard to do and and we get this strong flash from Kelly as well of her emoting as well mirroring that again tough to get somebody to do that so there's something very real going on here there's something very believable going on here I agree with you and I think the believable part is and this is what brings into question the gory part we went through earlier whether that really happened or not because I like I've been I'm under the impression that this is a deflection from that to bring what is really important is this we're here to talk about the other thing that's what's bringing this whole thing together but her saying he doesn't do this and you're probably right mark this probably what made her angry enough to say you know what here's what's going to happen I'm sure that that that she's being honest about most of this but I'm not so sure that the gory part happened I think you're right she's she says it clearly the hardest thing is you're nothing to me now you're not right is that the the assault didn't happen or assaults are not hard but the hardest thing for her she seems to suggest is not being valued when you watch when you watch this entire video if you watch for when her eyes are the most engaged and she's really crying I mean the sclera of her eyes red you can see all that it's around that topic it's around that topic in three places in the original store and then here and then later when they ask her what's the in-state what's the in-state and she goes in and says I want to be valued she that's where all the emotion is pouring out all the real emotion in the story and I think chase you the first got it bird dog that but yeah chase where do you got yeah I think we're seeing some of this stuff here so there's there is some coaching in here I I have no doubt but if I'm giving her a truth score instead of a deception score I'm given somewhere around 80% here and we see her deviate from using feeling words I saw him step back he looked at me and once he saw me and did this so that could be some of this coaching where she's not going defaulting to that language Mark said it right out of the gate she thrives on acceptance membership of groups and and making a difference and I she I don't know how she feels about it but I know that this was a much stronger and more dramatic emotional reaction and the emotional reaction I would I would I would bet my reputation is genuine that that is hard to fake I believe you I'm right people cry from frustration more rapidly than most other emotions I mean when they're when they're really really emotional and they really are explosively growing as often frustration because that's pent up and they can't go anywhere unlike the rest of emotions we have to learn to deal with you see that in corporate America right Tony what do you got? Uh I'll go for a few things just quickly I saw you know throughout the entire interview she tends to purse her lips and what you had said I think it was you who said like that smile at the end I have a feeling that that was more of a nervous like we can say maybe doopers the light maybe it was a slight smile as much but I have a feeling it was a nervous mile and I'll tell you why uh being the child of somebody who was abused you know for the first 16 years of my life my mother myself etc. um you become I don't want to say hardened but when you tell your story like my kids love it they sit on the edge of their seats I like tells the story when when daddy you know smashed the the muffler into the windshield and I can tell that story 10 times over no emotion will come out because I've told that story so many times yes the glass shattered into my face yes the man was standing there with his eyes in range yes my mother was next to me terrified like I can tell that story now and there's no emotion because I've told it so many times so I can see where she can get through this story and not have any I won't say emotional attachment but be able to discuss it however that's when you're talking to people you know who already know your story if I were telling my story to someone else that I didn't know then suddenly you kind of get this well of emotions that builds up and even though you want to be able to control it you can't so here I did see genuine emotion I saw he pointed his finger at me and when he when he says this she goes he said you're nothing to me and you see a one sided shoulder shrug it's very subtle but at the same time once again she's talking to somebody who feels her pain so to speak and that little shrug says to me she felt so insecure at that moment at saying you're nothing to me that she felt it that that one sided shoulder shrug said she felt insecure so here I definitely believe that she's told this story one too many times and maybe that's why she doesn't cry each and every time that she's telling a portion of it but everyone has agreed that thing that said you're nothing that self esteem that hit in the chest that just says you've done when you've done physically but now it's all emotional now it's up here so you see her top her chin her chin goes down and you just see real emotion there and I think that that was what she was feeling at that moment okay impression did I I was just my mind was racing and in that moment I knew this was really bad I knew I was it was more than just like the assault it was really bad he was then angry right and I could feel it wasn't like yelling angry but like that hostility build and he pulled back and he was just looking at me directly and he said he pointed his finger at me and he said you're nothing to me you're nothing and I and I think I I think that's the hardest thing and I know people talk about the assault but his words those words stayed with me my whole life and as I've been trying to tell my story I kind of been torn apart trying to tell it those words come back and it's like it was it was not it was cruel so when he saw me obviously start to get upset by what he said he took me by the shoulders and he just kind of shook me almost like you know and said you know you're okay you're alright