 Before Europeans made first contact, the Leni-Linope were in the lower Hudson Valley region. Mohawk were in the northern Hudson Valley region. Both were cultivating strains of American plum, so there's a distinct American type of plum. Other than a couple species of crab apple, it was plums and those crab apples were the only fruits that were indigenous to that region. As soon as the first Dutch explorers came and went up the Hudson Valley, they had cherries with them and the cherry, like they started growing cherries up and down, the Native Americans grew the cherries up and down the Hudson Valley. And then New York is a major port. There were these fruit that were coming from all over the world. So there were peaches that were coming from China. The donut peach, everybody, they market that as like this new invention. It's been around thousands of years in China. And it just, so that was introduced in New York in like the 1750s. But it became this gateway that all these different varieties sort of moved into the country. Sam Van Aken is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Sam is a contemporary artist who works beyond traditional models of art making, traditional modes using crossing artistic genres and disciplines to develop new perspectives on such themes as agriculture, botany, climatology, memory, and the ever-increasing impact of technology. Sam works in the natural and public realm. His works are seen as something that serves as the basis of a narrative, sites of places making collective learning and some cases have become the basis of scientific research. Born in Reading Pennsylvania, Sam received his undergraduate education in art and communication theory. Immediately following his studies, he lived in Poland and worked with dissident artists under the former communist regime through the auspice of the Andy Warhol Foundation and the United States Information Agency. Sam received his Master of Fine Arts from the University of North Carolina at Capitol Hill, at Chapel Hill, sorry, and since this time his work has been exhibited and placed nationally and internationally around the world. He has received numerous honors including the Joan Mitchell Foundation Award, Association of International Curators of Art Award, and a Creative Capital Grant. Most recently, his work has been presented as part of Nature Cooper Hewitt, designed for Treniel with the Cube Design Museum, Netherlands, as well as the 2020 World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland. His most recent work, The Open Orchard, is set to unveil summer 2021 on Governor's Island in New York City. Sam lives and works in Syracuse, New York, where he is currently an Associate Professor in the School of Arts at Syracuse University. His work is represented by Ronald Feldman Fine Arts. So some things that we'll get into in our discussion today will be the tree of 40 fruits, a little bit about Sam's TED Talk that has close to 500,000 views so far, many reposts, so 479,000 to be exact, talking a little bit about grafting and hybridizing plants and trees, biodiversity, and food security. So we're going to touch on just some absolutely wonderful works. Besides being such a great artist and his work, Sam shares this breathtaking work for all of us in the world for many reasons, and this tree of 40 fruit is really something special. It's about a series of hybridized fruit trees that grow 40 different varieties of peaches, plums, apricots, nectarines, and cherries all on the same tree. And it began as an art project to showcase beautiful, multi-hued blossoms that become living archive of rare heirloom specimens and their histories. And so I am very honored to have Sam here today. Welcome on the show, Sam. It's great to have you. Oh, thank you for having me. There was quite the introduction. Thanks. I appreciate it. I hope I didn't slaughter it too much, but I am really honored. I kind of have to let the cat out of the bag. We have a mutual friend, Diane Hatz, and she really, she was actually writing to me while you were on her podcast showing, she says, you've got to talk to Sam. This guy is amazing and gave me your contact information and said that I'd reach out to you, and I did. And she's just a great person doing wonderful things, and I've watched your Ted talk and hers, and I'm so excited to have you on the show. With that, before anything, I have to really start with the first question so that we can get the elephant in the room out of the bag. So to say, yeah, and that is, how have you weathered this crazy, absolute crazy time? You're in Syracuse, New York, a little bit further away from the craziness, but you're there ground zero almost that all the craziness go on. Have you weathered the pandemic okay? And all this other craziness go on. How have you been? Yeah, I mean, I've been fortunate, my family has been very fortunate that you know, just staying employed and staying healthy. So I mean, that's first and foremost, but you know, it's definitely, I don't know if I've even really considered the ramifications of what this all entails at the moment. I mean, I think in a lot of ways, I just buckled down and I grew a really great garden this year. That seemed to be my accomplishment for 2020. And I don't know if it was therapy or coping mechanisms, but yeah, I spent a lot more time with trees and in the garden. That's good to hear. I mean, another kind of reason I ask you this is you've been doing this for a while. And this hybridized way that you work and grafting and splicing trees together, you actually have a nursery, you're working on the 2021 project as well. So you've got, I mean, trees just don't pop up like that. So you've got some outdoors work and some work as well and nurturing and taking care of those. But in some forms that that work, that farming, that taking care of those, those, those trees and fruits and things to make sure that they're, they're living nicely and not running into any natural issues outside that does that give you any resilience or anything to kind of prepare to be in a different perspective for what we've experienced or even more respect for what we've experienced to kind of say, wow, you know, we need to start living differently. We need to start doing things differently. I don't suspect you were one of the ones running to the grocery store buying out all the toilet paper and fruits. Well, I mean, I think that's a really interesting point because it is, you know, I think a lot of people were panicked beginning, you know, I guess sort of towards the middle end of March where it was this, we were straining the food system. And it really became apparent like how little of our food supply is local. You know, and the thought, the thing I thought that was amazing is these caravans of trucks that would come from California to bring everybody food. And that's pretty, that was terrifying. Right. I mean, the toilet paper, you can probably get around, but you know, foods, yeah, that's a lot different. And I think that strain opened a lot of people's eyes. I know the pandemic garden became a thing. Yeah. Yeah, that's kind of a revival of the old victory gardens, you know, people starting to do things, even Diane was saying she'd like to get some more blooming trees, some more fruiting trees and some more food, you know, planted locally, kind of like Ron Finley does, the curbs and whatever space in the city, a lot of rooftop gardens. Yeah. And it's interesting because that's, I do a lot of public projects. And it's interesting because a lot of times cities, you know, municipalities, they shy away from fruit trees because they're always like, what are we going to do with all of this fruit? Right. And the funny thing is that every one of the trees that I planted so far, I thought it would be an issue that I would have to take the fruit and somehow figure out where to place it. But people kind of adopt the tree. And, you know, they become in tune with the ripening times of the fruit. And I think every year I might have like one or two pieces off of each of the trees that I have out there. It disappears quick. That's good to hear. That's really good to hear. You know, I've got a map that's off of your website and I'll put it in the show description as well so that people can go to your website and look. But on the tree of 40 fruits, you have them located. You're spanning the United States for sure. Very, very dense in New York and Vermont and Washington and those areas are kind of on the East Coast. Two pockets in the middle of the United States and then obviously in California have a little bit of stuff going on. So, kudos. Things are moving. I don't know if you have more planned, but that is such a beautiful thing to look at the pictures of those trees, how many fruits, what's coming off of them, what's going on. It's absolutely amazing. And you, I don't know if, do you have one or two dogs? Oh, I have two. Yeah, two dogs. You'll probably see them walking behind me. Yeah, you have two dogs. And so, I mean, also that besides your work outdoor with trees, with nature, with grafting, with kind of fruit trees, blossoms and these beautiful artworks, you've got these beautiful dogs that you're probably taking outside, you're staying active, you're moving around. You have a different view of nature and pandemics because you're always kind of evolved somehow with being outside. And I realized that I'm a farmer myself. I'm also a food producer on that. And so, by being outside, by being in momentum, by moving, by kind of living a different lifestyle, not only you eat different, you also kind of look at harvest times, you look at seasons and weather, you're also seeing how are the plants, the trees, the food that I'm producing, how is that reacting to what's going on on the outside of the world. And really, honestly, I mean, I don't think it's a cat out of the bag, but there is a correlation between the COVID and harvest times and also the flu season and how we see extreme air pollution in the air, which is an aerosol just when we see cyanide or chemical spraying of farmers or harvest times around the world where we see a lot of nitrogen and carbon released in the atmosphere from farmers or high industrial areas, that those are also the areas that are having the most problems with the COVID at the same time because the air pollution is so bad. There's a tight correlation to that because COVID's airborne and the pollution in the air. I'm in Hamburg, Germany, and during the time of Hamburg, Germany, when the numbers went up, it was also always in correlation to bad air quality as well. So there's just, you know, there's been a numerous amount of reports out there, but that goes back to the question again. Do you think that gave you any of that experience, any of that artwork, as you call it, gave you a little bit more resilience during this time to weather or have you suffered just like the rest of us? I think, well, I was fortunate to be able to escape, right? I mean, being able to work outside, that's at least for me is the great escape. But I also think the other thing too is that a year in the life of a tree is a blip, right? I didn't get to visit those trees I had in all of those different locations. I stuck at home and worked in the nursery and worked on trees that were local. But yeah, it's one season. The way I looked at it is it's a bad growing season and we'll get back on track the following years. I think that gave me at least a sudden calming aspect to it, but this is only temporary. And I do think that with growing things, you have bad growing seasons. You're always faced with bad weather, you know, whether that's a lot of too much rain in the spring or not enough during the summer. And I think you do, being tied to nature, you do understand that cyclical nature that things will hopefully recur to normal. Now, I kind of want you to, I let the cat out of the bag and told the story a little bit too much in the beginning with your biography, but am I right in saying that your journey originally started out more in the arts direction as artists and combined nature and since then it's evolved to some other things. Was that something that you learned over time or experience that no, this is much greater? How did that journey occur? Can you give us maybe go back and catch us up to speed and how that evolved? Yeah. Well, I think I'm like a farmer that never escaped. So I grew up on a dairy farm and, you know, I, God, that was like, that's just awful work. I just can't even express how much work that is, right? Getting up at 430 in the morning, milk cows, go to school, come home, milk cows, do homework, go to sleep. And it's just, you know, and the interesting thing, like as I look back and as it relates to now is that obviously that's where I sort of developed the fascination with grafting. My great-grandfather made a living as an orchardist, so he would, you know, he was like grafter for hire and would go around and start new trees and orchards them. And the other thing that I think was really interesting is, you know, it's kind of ubiquitous for farms in Pennsylvania, but we had this enormous cherry tree that was in the yard. And when I look back at, like, all the family photos, that was always the backdrop, this enormous black cherry tree. And, you know, I think, you know, growing up on a farm, in a lot of ways, it was the 19th century, right? So we made everything. The only thing we might buy were some cereals, but other than that, everything was grown in the garden. You know, we, yeah, hunted or, you know, had our own animals. And I mean, it was amazing to look back on when I was in it. I was like, I need to get out of here and found my way to art. But yeah, so I went on, became an artist, you know, got a gallery in New York with selling sculptures. And it was interesting because the tree of 43, I thought nobody would want one of these. I was, I just did it for myself. And yeah, like, you know, the art gallery where we're showing was like, what are you working on? And I rattled off all these projects and then mentioned these trees. And he was like, wait a minute, what? And yeah, that's how it kind of got its start. That's beautiful. And since you've had your TED talk, I mean, I'm sure you've been approached by numerous people as well. And just the resonance there is fabulous. So as you're a day in your life, is that really as a professor at the university and what kind of courses are you teaching there? And then how do you combine that with all these other works and projects that you're doing? Yeah, it's definitely juggling. You know, I mean, before I got ready for this, I was out burning trees. I got up, I pruned trees for two or three hours. Yeah, it ran inside to come in and do this talk. I mean, it's a, first of all, I think it's great, right? I mean, I can go out work on trees, come in, do this, work on things for school for a few hours. And then, you know, I'm working on a book right now. So I'll finish the day by writing. And it's, it's, I think it's wonderful to be engaged sort of intellectually, physically, right, where, you know, I think if I was sat in front of a computer all day, which I've been doing a lot of since the pandemic, I lose my mind, you know, if I, if I'm eight hours straight. So yeah, it's, it's wonderful. My job at the university is fantastic. I started teaching sculpture, but now I primarily work with graduate students. And yeah, it's, couldn't have a better life, right? I mean, you, you're surrounded by people that are engaged in thinking about art. And that's a wonderful thing. That's wonderful. Thank you for sharing that. So I want to get into the first big question. And that is really, do you feel like you're a global citizen? And how would you feel about a world with the removal of all borders, walls and limitations of dividing humanity one from another another? And also, what is your understanding of this? I'm sure you've heard the word global citizen before or, you know, obviously globalization, but how do you tie that into something that's very personal to you? What can you share some of your thoughts or feelings on that? Yeah, I mean, obviously borders are artificial constructs, right? We tend to think that like things were always this way. Things were never this way until the past few hundred years, right? I, I, yeah, and I also think the borders enable people to have, they don't let people have compassion or empathy for others. And that's, yeah, that's awful, right? I mean, obviously, and borders, that's what borders do. It's us and them. And, you know, I don't know. I mean, I can, I definitely will go in a little bit more and explain why I'm asking that question, but I want to get your kind of your feelings on it first and what, what you think about it. Especially in the last year and what, what, what you're experiencing in the US. At the start of 2020, I went to Davos and did a tree from all these Swiss apples, which was amazing, right? You know, and I think the, you know, whatever I create these trees in different locations, a huge part of it is going and meeting people that grow, you know, fruit growers in that area and the opportunity to meet them and then just listen to their story. I mean, that I find really fascinating. And I met this gentleman, Klaus Gersbach, who, he ran the sort of germplasm where they kept all of the apple varieties of Switzerland. And he, you know, he showed me these apples that are the most primitive apples, you know, in the world and up to the most contemporary versions. And, you know, it was like, I'm hanging out with Yoyo Ma. And then all of a sudden it's like, wham, I'm in Syracuse and I'm not going anywhere. And I think in that moment, what I realized is that I think I could be a better local citizen, right? So much of my life was taking place in other locations that I don't think I was necessarily a good local, you know, yeah, I wasn't being probably the best neighbor I could be. So I started a couple more projects close to home, right? And I think that that to me is, I think if everybody did that, then we wouldn't, yeah, you wouldn't have to worry so much. Yeah, more local and regional, that kind of that view of what's, what's, and there's another term that most people don't understand that gets thrown out there a lot as this indigenous. Well, Syracuse, New York has an indigenous, not only apples, but fruits and soil and microorganisms and all sorts of things that are very local and just small radiuses. And it's really that there's this indigenous, not only culture, but type of food and what is what was original to the soils and the microbes of that area. And the reason I asked that bigger question or kind of elaborate is food, as you mentioned, and your answer earlier, he says, you know, it was crazy to see fruits and vegetables coming from California to Syracuse, New York, you know, food is a global citizen, it has no nations and borders, microorganisms, the COVID is a global citizen, that's something that doesn't stop at the borders, it's around the world and our air, our water and species, species don't say, oh, I can't go across the border into Texas or Mexico or whatever, they have no borders. And so, regardless of walls and things, and so there's this different way of looking at the world. And so I just wanted to kind of get your take on it, because also a lot of these, the grafting and the type of trees of 40 fruits and the way you've talked, even in your TED talk about some of the fruits, I don't know, some of all of those came from the United States or some were coming from other countries or from England or from what there's this, you know, it all comes from Spaceship Earth, really. But I just wanted to kind of get your view on that, we come from Spaceship Earth, we're all global citizens and we're actually come from star stuff, you know, the basic elements of life, we crawled out of primordial soup. And there's a perspective or a view that when you have on that, what your feelings are thought that really sets the tone, not only of your work, but how things occur in your local region and your reach of your world view. And so I wanted to get that understanding for me, but also kind of touch upon, because what we'll discuss here a little bit further is how does that interact with this, the climate issues that we're having, the food security issues, the biodiversity issues we're having, which you also address in your work, you've had to address, I guess, in your work that you've seen come up. And so that's kind of why I asked those questions, not necessarily to put you on the spot, if you're the global citizen, but you answered the question correct. Don't worry, you get the prize. Ding, ding, ding. Well, I think it's interesting in terms of fruit. I mean, it's really the story of migration and migrations of the individuals. So just thinking about, you know, let's focus on New York City, right? So before Europeans made first contact, the Lenny Lenape were in the lower Hudson Valley region. Mohawk were in the northern Hudson Valley region. Both were cultivating strains of American plum. So there's a distinct American type of plum. Other than a couple species of crab apple, it was plums and those crab apples were the only fruits that were indigenous to that region. As soon as the first Dutch explorers came and went up the Hudson Valley, they had cherries with them. And the cherry, like they started growing cherries up and down the Native Americans grew the cherries up and down the Hudson Valley. And then New York is a major port. There were these fruit that were coming from all over the world. So there were peaches that were coming from China. The donut peach, everybody, they market that as like this new invention. It's been around thousands of years in China. So that was introduced in New York in the 1750s. But it became this gateway that all these different varieties sort of moved into the country, peaches, palms, apricots, nectarines. And it's also kind of interesting too when you start to get into the genetics of it. So the grafting, the reason why people graft is that because fruit trees are genetically unstable, which means that you plant a seed from one of the fruits from a fruit tree, it's going to be different than the parent and have different characteristics. So we graft in order to propagate them when we find the variety we like. It turns out that apples are the most genetically unstable. So you take, let's say, 500 seeds from an apple tree, plant all of them out, you have 500 different types of trees. A lot of them are going to be awful. And in fact, probably most, but it's because of that reason these fruit have traveled. So looking into the histories of some of these fruit, I can trace clumb varieties back across 2000 years to Damascus, peach varieties back through an orchard in Shanghai. And I think one of the things that's become really interesting as of late is that I look at myself, I'm like a stop along the way for this fruit variety. Most fruit trees are grafted every 20 to 30 years. And so you think 2000 years, somebody's grafted that tree every 20 to 30 years. And so you're just playing your part in perpetuating that variety along. That definitely does tie you to a global world. I mean, you're thinking is no longer local. Yeah, I was also in Davos this year or last year before the pandemic hit and also in Bangkok, Thailand and in the US right before we started getting into lockdowns. And really it was the decade of action, a lot of things going on. And I'd also heard about your project there. And this year now, there is no Davos this year. It's kind of an online virtual Davos. And then we're originally speaking about moving it to Lucerne and Bergenstock. And then they said, no, okay, we're going to move it to May and Singapore. And so we're going to try to host a Web site event dinner, planetary services dinner with our planets, the centerpiece, but with a different type of food that is grown locally. And we're going to try to use some cellular agriculture and some cellular meats and some different type of things to do. Sustainable food, local and that. Love to throw out an invitation to you, see if you, I don't know how, how long a process takes to get a tea free grafted together and that, but we'd love to display something at that dinner. And there's going to be some greats there and maybe even give in invites. So that's just something that came up when you were speaking. I'd sure like to tell you about that and offer you an invitation as well. I'll send it to you later. The next question I really have is, so the world economic form as kind of ties into that as has, you know, instead of going back to business as usual, let's get back to normal, the new normal. You've heard all the things that has come out with the great reset. And I'd like to see what your thoughts and feelings are about that, what you understand about the great reset and for as a professor as what you're doing with your art and your, and your trees, what does that mean for you and what, what for you is a reset and, and, and that is, there's no right or wrong answer. I just want to know kind of from your perspective, very local and what you're dealing with and how that works. I think in a lot of ways, I think I was planning the reset before the reset happened. You know, it was interesting because as I started the tree of 40 fruit, I had no idea about the varieties that I was working with, you know, even though I grew up on a farm, it's like, you know, there were red plums and blue plums, right? I didn't give it much thought. And as I've learned more about the, the history and, you know, the, just sort of the origin stories of these fruit, it just has become really fascinating. And I've started to look at the fruit more as like cultural objects, right embedded in them as such a rich history, more so than a lot of artifacts that you might find at a museum, right? And so I guess it was, you know, when I started this orchard project, the open orchard project in New York, I, I sort of wanted to turn it over to people, right? So to turn over the fruit, turn over the process of grafting the trees. And I think 2021 will be the time for that because I can, you know, we'll plan out the orchard, we'll turn it over to people and yeah, I'm essentially open sourcing the whole project and how to do it. So for me, that's going to be the huge reset because it's, you know, it's sort of like a 10 year project coming to some type of conclusion. Looks like a form of empowerment that you're giving everybody and not only the tools and kind of teaching them and showing them projects, but, but it should, it really should be open source and it should be something that people are empowered to do it. I don't think, I hope they won't forget you in the process and, and, you know, honor that you impart them, but that's that reconnection to food. People really need to understand how, how things work in the history and the culture behind them. I love how you phrase that, that it's, there's a deep culture in there. The bananas we eat today are definitely not the bananas we ate from years ago and many, many other things. And then it's, you know, with, with my book, Menu B that I've asked you to also contribute to if you're interested is, is really about global food reform, about connecting people really back to food and how does that process work? What are the steps and what are the complexities behind that? And because we've really distanced ourselves from food, how we make it, how it grows, where it comes from, not only at the grade school level and children have no clue or hopefully are starting to get better, but at the adult level, we're, and now I mean, during this pandemic times, it's really been a wake up call for many people on how to cook, what to cook, you know, are you going to eat healthy or going to eat worse and go even more in a spiral of, of bad, bad health habits, which then make you more susceptible to COVID and other issues because of the way you're eating and things. And so I really appreciate that insight from you. My very first hardest question for you, and I hope it doesn't knock you out of your chair, is really the burning question. And it's WTF. And it's not the swear word, although we've been asking each other that last year and pulling out our hair, but it's what's the future? And so specifically towards you, you know, you don't need to tell me politics or your region. I just want to know, do you believe that there's a plan? Do you have a plan? And what is the future? You see kind of emerging, moving forward in the great reset for you. I have no power, it says an oracle, but I can tell you what I want it to be. And a lot of it, for me, you know, I'm really, it's probably because it's the thing I think about the most, but the really thinking about our food sources. And as you mentioned, more that empowering people to be more engaged with it. I, as I, you know, it's kind of funny, I went from high art audiences to, I do, I do free talks for master gardener clubs and for elementary schools. But with the elementary schools, that's really interesting is that the majority of kids have never planted a seed and watched it grow or nurtured it for that matter, right? And, you know, to see it produce anything. And that's kind of horrific when you start to think that I eat food as a primary thing in one's life, right? And to be that removed from its production, I think is really dangerous because it doesn't even show up as a consideration for you, right? And so things become increasingly mass produced and, you know, yeah, that to me is the danger of all of that. And, you know, I would just hope that, you know, people like yourself that are putting this information together, that they start to see more consideration paid to them because these conversations aren't new, right? These conversations have been going on essentially since 1950, right? When food was industrialized, these conversations have been taking place. And, you know, if you can do any small part in giving those conversations traction, I think that's amazing. I do too. And you get the answer right. There is no right or wrong answer. But I mean, it's nice to see your perspective on that. And that there's a lot of people working on that. Another friend of Diane Hatson and mine is Steven Ritz in the South Bronx. He does, he's done a curriculum for growing salad and food in and around the schools and kind of brought that into the curriculum of the New York school system. And there's many other greats doing that. But it's really, we need to have that as a core on the mental, almost a human right for everybody to have that knowledge. And for me and you, probably makes sense. A lot of our listeners don't put it together that food is our basic energy source. It's like a car needs gasoline or electric energy, whether it's electric car or and a plane needs fuel and to go to keep the motor running. Well, our energy source, our battery sources food, it runs our battery, it regulates our heat, a caloric unit or a calorie is a measurement of energy. It's a, it's a, I'm not much for counting calories, but it's a measurement of energy. And food is our energy source, it regulates our body temperature. And for people to be disconnected on what gives their body energy and not know where it's coming from, what's in it and how it does it properly is to me is a huge disconnect from us to our earth, our humanity, our food and everything. And that really needs to be changed. And when I've been around kids, and you probably experienced this as well, you say, you say, you're speaking to schools and that. And when you teach a child how to plant something, how to grow something, how to graph something, boy, it's just amazing. And that's all they want to do. And they just light up and they understand it and they get it. They didn't know where it came from before. And it's pretty cool. So I've seen that occur, not only with Steven and others. So I'm, I'm right on with you. That is a big portion of that WTF, what's the future is more connection to our symbiotic earth, to our planet, to our, you know, our spaceship earth. There's, there's also something that's been going on has probably been going on as you mentioned as well before the COVID and kind of has been in the process a little bit since the 50s as well. But, but, but more so in the last few years, probably since 2015, even more intense. And that is this more and more steady unease or unrest in the world where we feel like, boy, we're just not getting along with certain people like the Brexits, the Bolton Narrows, the Putans, the Shays, the Trampocalypse and, and it's this like this civilization framework or this unease or unrest that we're seeing the systems or these models of, of that should be guiding us into the future just don't seem to be working for us all anymore that, that they're just not working. Are you seeing that in your university or in your circles that there's also this, this civilization framework unease or unrest or maybe even the feeling of an existential feeling or a civilization collapse feeling. Do you feel or seeing that as well or? Yeah, well, in light of the past weeks events here in the US, there's no way to not have that be at the forefront of your thought, but I, what I'm very much hoping is that it's, it's the death throws of the way that thing used to be and that change is coming up. To be honest, like I, I think that you know what's happening in the US right now is that we are on the verge of change and the power holders are losing their power and they're trying to hold desperately, obviously desperately trying to do everything they can to hold on to it. And I, it's just reprehensible. I mean, you look at the US, it's, you know, the event that happened January 6th started with Charlottesville three years before, right? It was just leading up to that, to that point. And I think, you know, the optimistic perspective toward it all is that these are people losing power and they're, they're doing everything they can to hold on to it. Yeah, so I mean, we're, we're feeling that here in Europe, it's all over the world. It's also, but in these times of this unrest and unease, there's a lot of things underneath that kind of go by the wayside. And that is basic human rights. And one thing that we saw in around Brexit, and so they did the Brexit, which was crazy. And then the lockdown came for COVID, that all the farms there that normally have all these migrant workers, you know, hundreds of thousands of migrant workers a year that are going there to harvest the food, they weren't, they're already because of the Brexit, but now they weren't definitely not there because of the COVID lockdown. And so now all that food basically got tilled back into the ground. There wasn't enough harvesters. And so some farmers were just plowing it right back. They couldn't even produce it and get it out, which, which kind of it aggregates of permits that turns into methane. It's just a huge waste of those initial resources. But it's not just in the United Kingdom. It's all around the world that during times like this, when there's not a plan where there's unrest, where there's economic issues, where there's also COVID, that we see that it affects the basic rights of food, water, security, shelter. And then through this unease is kind of a ripple effect from the basic energy needs from the basic needs that ripple up to these these higher levels that we're just, we're seeing a lot of issues surface. And now we're put in a lockdown situation. And we get to see our human zoos with this microscopic view. We're now 24 seven in our human zoos. And we're like, Oh my gosh, I'm going stir crazier. How do I get my kids educated and become a teacher now and give them enough computers and all this, all this stuff. And so these things bubble to the surface. And so I wanted to kind of get your perspective. Obviously, it's tragic. But the reason I mentioned that is, and also tie it with the question before what's the future is a ship without a plan is just lost at sea. An airplane without guidance and navigation is just going nowhere, you know, you have to have a plan. And so what's the future? What's the plan? Is there an earthshot? Is there a moonshot? Is there some kind of a plan that's going to unify humanity, the US or something that we can work towards to create these different systems or these different livabilities for our future? Because the next question would be is so right now we're on lockdown, we're wearing face masks, we're taking distancing measures. We know that there's other pandemics, other problems, other food issues coming in the future. Does that mean that the next one instead of just face masks, we're in a need to wear gas masks or often masks or space suits to to enjoy the future, we're not going to just be social distancing, we're going to be, you know, miles apart. I don't know how it is, but how does what model is there to not just avoid but to prevent this in the future so that we can enjoy the future, enjoy a beautiful, resilient, desirable futures. And so I want to know if you thought about that, if you're thinking, okay, this is the plan, it's the sustainable development goals, it's the new green deal, that's really going to do it for us. What is your hope? What is your plan for humanity in the future? And I know I'm throwing a lot on your shoulders, but you know, from doing the tree of 40 fruits to save in the world, I just want to know, do you, is there a plan like that out there? No, I think one of the grand ironies of the lockdown in the United States is that you know, Trump was building his massive border wall and you know, he was trying to stop all forms of immigration and we get a month into the lockdown of, you know, the food, our food security was threatened, then all of a sudden, all of these immigrant workers were deemed essential workers, right? So these were like, and they start praising essential workers and you're like, wait a second, these are the people that were being despised six weeks ago. Now all of a sudden, they're essential, right? And why doesn't that calculate into the politics? That is, I mean, I think the Green New Deal, great good start, right? I don't think it's anywhere near a solution. I think it's, there's no reason why you couldn't get rid of gasoline in 10 years, right? It's all of these things and I do actually spend a lot of time thinking about it. I think a lot of it comes out of art, theory, and philosophy, like I was, you know, looking at modernism, right, as this grand sort of epoch where it's, there's this incredible scientific and technological revolution, right? The only other time that we have to compare to it is the Renaissance, right? And it's, it's not a very optimistic future, right? Because it's right after the Renaissance, you have the Counter-Reformation, and everything breaks up into these city-states, Europe becomes balkanized. And I, yeah, I think if we don't start working towards the, you know, towards a better solution, the future isn't very bright. But at the same time, I really don't know what to do when you have a mass part of your population that is not dealing with logic, common sense, and reality. Yeah, when you have almost 50% of the population, yeah, I, yeah, it's crazy. It's insane. Well, I mean, that's part of why, you also mentioned this earlier, that's part of why we need some kind of a collapse or disruption. We need, you know, we need to have disruption. Through this disruption, we can, we can build anew. We can, we can realize, wow, you know, we're, we were going down a crazy path and we've, we've got to, we've got to fix some things. That, I mean, COVID is a, is a horrible thing. Don't get me wrong. I don't want to make it positive. But in one respect, it's been absolutely positive because it's led a lot of holes in our system, a lot of holes in our, in our infrastructure and in the way we do things. Bubble to surface has shown the microscope on, on many things of what that need to be fixed. And, you know, obviously the, the, those are things I'm glad that Biden will get us back into the Paris Agreement and the Sustainable Development Goals and kind of on climate and that, but he needs to fix the Electoral College and the voting system and that they, you know, 2000 with Al Gore, the Dimple Chat and then now with a mail-in votes. And I mean, it still goes back, also goes back to what you just said. In many ways, we're in the dark ages, industrial age of some of these processes that we have, some of these systems. And in, in the food area, the least digitized area in the world, agriculture, food and beverage, even seafood, least digitized, least educated, the poorest wages, the biggest employer of women and girls. And I'm not saying we all need lab-grown food or, you know, space food. What I'm saying is we need to get up to speed with, with our exponentially growing world, world and start using these tools that we have that are positive that don't create human suffering and, and, and big impacts on our environment. And there are some of those tools like crafting and splicing and the things that are actually fairly old. And if anybody tells you that farming is, is a natural process, full of shit, because the minute we started moving rock and cutting down trees and tilling the soil, we began impacting our environment. And it's, it's as farming as a science. And, and so what, I definitely do not agree with fire in Monsanto and, and what they do in the lab and not that, but there's a different form of, of modification through grafting and splicing that, that doesn't have negative consequences for us in the future of that food that we eat and doesn't make us a slave to certain seeds or pesticides or chemicals and things and, and unharm our soils. And so I really liked that you, you brought that out because I think that we do need to get into up to speed with our exponentially growing world so that not only we can do things without harming human health and humanity in general, but our, our environment. So we have a much longer way to feed and nourish humanity because it is possible. And so I mean, I believe you think about those things as well. And I'd love to see some of those tools that you're, you know, you say you're going to empower and you're going to turn, hopefully turn this project over. That's those are the tools that we need. We need to say, okay, wow, we can out of this one tree that I have here in my victory garden or on my, we can get 40 fruits out of it and we can preserve some of these seeds and, and, and really understand the bigger picture of it because it's a pool that really can be used all over the world and it's something that's, that's very efficient. It's also part of regenerative agriculture, permaculture. It's the same type of concepts in many ways. And it's a smart way of hacking and using the tools for the future of food. And I don't know if you have anything to say about that. But I mean, I just kind of bring out my, my interesting things. But I think there's a lot of things that tie into what your work is and what you do in that respect as well. Well, I think the, you know, the, the interesting thing when it comes to grafting is that, you know, I have a lot of growers, orchardists say to me, well, GMO is just some more refined process than grafting is, right. And I, I don't know, I thought about that for a long time. I'm like, I guess it could be right. Because typically the way the new varieties of fruit were developed before genetic modification is you collect the pollen out of one tree and brush it into the blossom of the tree that you wanted to, to get fruit from. And you know, it's like, it is a more refined thing. But I kept coming back to sort of the public's reaction. And I think when it comes down to it, the public is, as I think that that general distress for it comes down to the question of why, why do we need to do it, right? Just because we can, why? There's plenty of, you know, there's plenty of fruit varieties, we could grow these. And, and I think, you know, perhaps it's not from a knowing perspective, but they understand that their food is industrialized. And the GMO becomes the strong reaction to that, right, is that another further step towards that industrialization and that manufacturing. So it, I think it's a guttural reaction, but I think it's right on point with asking that really important question. I agree. I mean, and still even to hold to that industrialized, that's 200, 250 years old now. Let's get, let's get up to speed with something that works a little bit better. And there, you know, there was a reason it came about and that, but I think in some respects, it's, it's Frankenstein, it's become a Frankenstein in some respects. And, and there's, I mean, that's a whole nother topic we could get into about all, all that chemicals and, and that, but there is one last hard question and you might have already answered it before. And then, then I want to get some sustainable takeaways from my audience, some things maybe you could depart to them. And that is, it's very similar to the big one, but it's called what does a world that works for everyone look like for you? So if you were to somehow have a, the almighty wisdom, what does a world that works for everyone look like for you? I think it goes back to, I think it goes back to the points that we're, we've been discussing and talking around, and I can only speak from the perspective of the United States. I don't think that the United States moves forward unless there's a reckoning on race. It just won't, right? There's no way to move forward because you look at the history of agriculture and it's racist, right? It's, it's a story of people that have been prevented from growing. So until that reckoning takes place, a world that's equal and equitable to me, there's a baseline at which we let no citizen fall below, right? Then it's opportunity for all, you know, and the opportunity to pursue, you know, it's a, I don't even care about jobs. I've been trying to avoid jobs my whole life, right? Well, job stands for just overbroke. So I'm glad you're trying to avoid it. But I think it is, it's the opportunity to, to pursue thoughts, ideas and ways of doing things that you, you choose to. And I, yeah, until everybody can have that same starting point, though, then it isn't fair. Then it isn't free. And I, and I really take the, that same view on a global level. So I believe we're all crew member on spaceship Earth and we can all put our hand on the steering wheel. There's only a few times in our life where we're a baby or in the elder years of our life where we're kind of become passengers where we can't do too much in the guiding. But that's okay. We have a community and those who, who'll pick up the lead, but really we're, none of us are passengers here waiting for someone to deliver the future for us. We can put our hand on the steering wheel and do things like your, your projects and your work to, to make the world a better place to give us more tools to have us look at different ways of doing things that, that could really help and, and improve. And, and I really love just regardless of the, the food benefits and the different way to look at the fruits that you offer. I like it as it's a beautiful blossoms and blooms on, on your trees and as an artwork it is the most beautiful artwork that you could be. It says nature, it's natural, it says, it's a, you know, healing our soils, capturing carbon, creating beautiful, colorful, vivid, blossoms that I just love. So thank you for that answer and, and I, I, I agree with you. I'm in alignment. The last three questions I have for you, unless you have anything else you want, you want to depart as well, you're, I'll also give you that time to kind of let my listeners know is if there was one message that you could depart to my listeners as a sustainable takeaway that has the power to change their life, what would it be your message? Good. God, that's, that is the toughest question. Um, bring your own food. Try it, right? Um, if you eat meat, kill it, right? And I think those two things make you more considerate of everything else, right? The, you know, if you grow really good tomato, you know how damn hard it was and you will not waste any of it, right? If, if you're a meat eater, you need to participate in that because it makes you reevaluate what, what actually taking the life of the thing entails. Perfect. What should young artists in your field, whether art or, are, are growing fruit trees and, and, and that be thinking about to make or ways to make a real impact? Huh. It's, well, I think for a long time, you know, I'm definitely a product of the 1980s, right? So growing up in a farm where all of your clothes are made for you and you're making everything. And you know, you're getting these pictures of the outside world through MTV and packaging, right? I thought it was like this inferior way of living, right? That I was, you know, it's like, man, we can't afford that. I'm growing it. And I think in a lot of ways, I didn't acknowledge my past. And the thing that I found with artists, the closer you get, I think you want to, it's interesting, you, you want, as an artist, you want to say something that reaches a lot of people, right? But I found the way of doing is the more you, the more you're willing to share your story and the closer, you know, the more you're willing to reveal, the more people understand. Like you might think it's really idiosyncratic to you, but it actually opens up to a way of understanding for a lot more people. What have you experienced or learned in your journey so far that you would have loved to know from the beginning, from the start? I mean, there, I have to say nothing, right? That's the whole point of the journey. I mean, yeah, there's a lot of things that would have saved me probably years and years of work. But I think the years and years of work were critical to where I'm at with the project. I think all of those things helped form that fortune that I'm growing in New York City right now. You've got some other projects going on. Do you want to tell us about those? And then also, if there's anything that we didn't get to discuss, I mean, there's a lot of things, you know, the the harvest, the blossoms, the sided trees, the nurseries, you could discuss as well. Can you just tell us about those things, some things to be excited about even the 2020 launch hopefully in the summer and maybe anything we left out? Yeah, I'm always doing some of my ongoing projects are like, I'm always working with the weather now. Like, I think it's just with growing trees. I've become in tune with with the weather. And my take on it is sort of looking at weather modification, right? So, you know, weather modification spans everything from prayer to rituals to cloud seeding. And I don't know, it's sort of, I think of it almost as like this magical device. Like one of the the really interesting things is that in France in the vineyards, the churches will actually ring church bells as storms approach. Because I guess several hundred years ago, they felt that that sound could change the weather, right? And so they were hoping that by making as much noise as they could, the hail would fall from the storm before it reached their vineyard. There's something really interesting there where at least to how I come to think about it is that when you reach the end of all available technology, I think this is really relates to farming, right? You'll use everything within your power to produce this plant. But at a certain point, there's only so much you can do. And at that point at the end of technology, that's when we reach the metaphysical, right? That's when we will resort to that which is unproven, which is, you know, yeah, which we see as higher powers and so forth. I totally agree. And then cloud seeding is a big thing. So I really, people look at the way our world works. I mean, we're breathing the same air that Gandhi breathed, that Julius Caesar breathed, that, you know, whoever, we're drinking the same waters. It's not going anywhere. It's not being delivered from Mars or some other planet. It's all remains here. It's just being recirculated. This is the year of regeneration. And so I love how you tie that in and then how do we, in this metaphysical way, how do we figure out that last step? How can we, there's a prayer? What do we do to make sure this miracle happens? Yeah, that's the big question. That's the hell. I mean, I think one of the one of the things I felt really privileged to participate in this year was a project called In Plain Sight. And it was a group of 80 artists. It was coordinated by two artists. One was castles. The other was Rafa Sparza. And it involved doing skywriting over detention centers in the United States, immigrant detention centers. And, yeah, it was done on the 4th of July too. And in the end, I didn't even participate because my the plane that I was supposed to write my message got shut down by the FBI. But I think things, at least for me, that getting to the other side of things starts with participating in projects like that. I'm glad you do. And I'm so glad to have you on the show. It's been a sheer pleasure. We could talk for hours. Yeah, I thought we were just getting started. We're an hour and 15 minutes in. It goes fast. People are like, 60, 90 minutes. What are you kidding me? And then they're like, oh, we done already? I've had so many people say that. Some of my good friends really know too, though we've had two and three hour podcasts where they're like, oh my gosh, it just seemed like we just got started. Yeah, this is wonderful. Thank you. It's a privilege. You're most welcome. And I hope we can spread your message even more. And I'll definitely put in the show notes, your website, and some other things so that people can look you up and support you. And it's been a sheer pleasure. And I'll send you the invite on the other things for the World Economic Forum. And maybe we can work on that. And hopefully we can work on the book together. So good luck on yours. Great. Well, thank you so much. Yeah, this is a great conversation. You have a great day. Thanks so much. All right, you too.