 Okay, recording is on. Good morning everyone. Thank you for joining the class. Let's pray together and we'll get started. Can somebody please pray with us? Aaron, can you please pray? Sure, Pastor. Let me pray. Thank you for this day, Lord. Lord, thank you even to the ESB Queen to learn your word. Your Father, we know your heart, we know our mind with your moving word. And Lord, Father, prepare us all and place us all with you, we simply offer this to you. May Jesus know my prayer. Amen. Amen. Okay, so last week we covered Romans 12th chapter and today we will, I think we'll be able to do 13 and 14, hopefully, we'll be able to finish that. And then we just have two more chapters. So hopefully we'll be able to complete everything in by next week. That is October 22nd or late test by November 3rd and that will give us three many weeks we will use for just use the time to do the assessments. Now that I'll be able to work on and put it out. So we'll have time to finish up assessments that cover the cover Romans, whatever we've studied, right? So today's a very interesting chapter. Romans chapter 13. It has to do with how we relate to civic authorities. And once again, this is probably the, I would say, the primary place. We do have a reference over in 1 Peter chapter two. But other than that, this is probably the primary place where the New Testament is teaching us very specifically on how we as believers should relate to civic authority. And Paul is very clear on what he writes. And for us to understand the context in which this being is written is even more interesting. And then, of course, from there come a lot of questions, which we would ask today as believers living in, in a, in a, in a world where, you know, we have all kinds of things happening. With government. And, and so we will try to answer some of those questions and I put all of these things. These are all in the PDF notes. So we will just be covering that and you can go and review that as well. So let's begin first of all by reading Romans chapter 13. And we will read verses one to eight, please. Romans 13. One to eight. Could somebody read that for us, please? Romans 13, one to eight. Classes are required today. I'll do the question. Romans 13, one to eight. Let every soul be subject to the government governing authorities, for there is no authority except from God and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. Therefore, whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good and you will have praise from the same. For he is God's minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is good God's minister and Avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. Therefore, you must be subject, not only because of wrath, but also for conscience sake. For because of this, you also pay taxes, for they are God's ministers attending continually to this very thing. Render therefore to all their due, taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor. Oh, no one anything except to love one another, for he who loves another has fulfilled the law. Thank you. All right, very interesting passage and also lots of questions. Now, we know obviously God and Paul is writing about civic authorities or government authorities. And the context is, you know, he's writing to believers in Rome, Jews and Gentiles, people believe in Jesus Christ. They are in Rome. At that time, the Roman emperor and his government or his kingdom or his empire is in control. Roman emperors were not godly people. I mean, at least up until that time, you know, we may have one or two exceptions, but generally, they were not godly people. They were terrible people. And in fact, the Roman emperor who, Nero came in about into power about that time was extremely wicked. And he was so against Christians that Nero emperor Nero was was so, so, so harsh that he, you know, he used Christians. He used them as torches, set them on fire and use them as torches even to light up his garden and use them as entertainment, throwing them to animals. And eventually, you know, subsequently, Rome was just not Rome. Jerusalem was destroyed by the Roman general around 80 70. So the point is, at that time, the people who were in authority were not godly people or not kind people. They were nowhere in any way they're no affair or just or, you know, the kind that we would expect from a civic authority, somebody was in power. They're not like that. So for Paul to write these words to believers living in Rome, knowing fully well, the kind of authority that was there. And to use, you know, the language he uses here is quite astounding, actually. And we know that this is not the words of just Paul, but this is what God is communicating to us through his servant. Holy Spirit is telling us these things. So we have to take them very seriously. And of course, we have to apply them to our day and time. The governments that we are under are slightly different or not slightly very different. We are under democratic, democratically elected government. We are under different form of government. But the there are a lot of questions that that, you know, as believers we ask and so we will try to address them. But what are some of the interesting things we see here in this passage in these eight verses? First of all, he's telling us I'm starting from verse one. He's telling us to be submitted to the government. You know, it just right off. There's no no questions or no discussion on this says, you know, as a believer, be submitted to the civic authority. There is no qualifier for is the civic authority Christian is the civic authority believers is the civic authority righteous is the civic authority bear. No, none of that simply says be submitted to governing authorities. That's one thing that we notice right away. And then he just says the other interesting thing is the view that Paul brings to us about civic authority. He says they are appointed by God. That's I'm still on verse one. He says civic authority appointed by God. And, you know, in the minds of people there at that time, it's like, wow, this Roman Roman Empire and the Roman Emperor, that the their, you know, regional kings, kings who took the whom they are appointed were in submission to them. Basically, their people, their pawns sort of speak, you know, appointed in different parts of their empire. He's saying, look, they are, they are appointed by God. And then he says they are worse to they are the ordinance of God. That means, you know, could translate the word ordinance as an institution of God. So they are appointed by God. They are an institution of God. And then he goes on in verse four, and he refers to them in verse four and verse six. He says they are God's minister. So three, three interesting but very notable things that Paul is saying about the civic authorities appointed by God. The institution is of God. And they are God's ministers. Now the word minister there is the word deacon servants. I think they're God's servants. I mean, somehow they are instruments in God's hands. So that's a very interesting perspective. It's not just a perspective. This is God's truth. And that's something for us to embrace that way we see our government, whatever the form of government is. We see them as, you know, whether, you know, so the point is this, I want to say this, regardless of the form of government, whether it is a monarchy, which was the case in those times, whether it is a democratically elected government or whether it's a dictatorship, you know, whether it's, you know, a socialist type of government, whatever, there is no qualifier here. So nobody has a right to say socialism is not of God or, you know, a dictator dictatorship is not of God or monarchy is not of God or democratic process, not of God. I mean, there's no qualifier here of the form of government. So it's wrong for us to put qualifiers. Whatever the form of government is, Paul is telling us the authorities are appointed by God. They are the ordinance of God and they are God's ministers. That's how we view them. And we will answer some questions in relation to this, but I'm just highlighting these things from the text. And then he says, as a believer, what must I do? He said, he said, you know, verse one says, be subject to them. Verse two, don't resist them. That means don't go out there and oppose them. Don't fight against them. And third, he says, do what's good. That means you do what's right. Do what's right. And finally, he also says, you render verse seven, you know, you render the dues, pay the dues, taxes, customs, honor. So tax, custom. So not just pay your tax and your custom, but notice he also says honor, which is respect. So as a believer, as we relate to civic authorities, what should we do? Be subject or be submitted to them. Do not resist them. Do what's good before them. And then number four, pay the dues, whether it's money, but also respect. And I want to emphasize the respect part, the money part. Yeah, you know, we may all pay taxes, but how about the honor, the respect that we have to give to the government? You know, and so we have to honor them, respect them. So now having understood, you know, that, you know, what, what did this passage has said or stated for us? There are lots of questions that we as leavers would ask in relation to all that is being stated here. And so I've kind of, you know, these are put out there in the, in the notes and I just want to, you know, kind of walk, walk through that in the PDF. And I'll just kind of follow the PDF for this lecture. So the first question would be, you know, in what sense are these authorities, these governing authorities, civic leaders, you know, in our case, we have prime minister, we have his cabinet, you have, you know, of course, there's a president there. And then at the state level, we have governors, we have chief ministers and all of these people. You know, in what sense have they been appointed by God? And, you know, in what sense are they ministers of God? So that means they're serving the purpose of God in some way. And, you know, what about leaders who are just outright unjust, wicked and corrupt? Because, yeah, we know that, you know, so whoever's in power, whether it's a prime minister or chief minister or a president, depending on the government, you can tell. Yeah, this man is just unjust. He's corrupt or maybe even is against Christians and so on. So, you know, so what about such leaders? How do we understand the fact that there is somebody who is so unjust, so corrupt, so wicked, so anti-Christian? And then to look at what is written here in the scripture saying, hey, this government is appointed by God, don't resist the government. This is an institution by God and he is God's minister. I mean, how can I reconcile that understanding with the reality of what we might be seeing in government, right? So what we must, so I just want to go through some of the thoughts here. That is, God has instituted governmental authority in different spheres of our life. That means that there's an authority structure that God has put. So, in the family, in the home, there is the husband. So the husband and wife are co-equal, but yet the husband is the head, he's supposed to provide leadership in the church. All believers are saved by grace, all are co-equal, co-heirs, yet there is a spiritual head, a spiritual leader of the church, particularly the pastors in charge in the workplace. The workplace is made up of citizens who have equal rights in the country, but yet in the workplace, there's an hierarchy. There would be managers and eventually whatever that structure is, there is leadership. And then there is, in the government, civic authority, again, whatever that structure is, there is somebody in charge. There is authority above every level. And what the Bible is teaching us is that these authority structures are from God. In God, in one sense, has permitted these authority structures in some places. He's instituted them. God instituted the family, the church, the workplace also. The Bible tells us that we submit to those in the workplace and in government. God has instituted them. And the intent is that through these authority structures, the purposes of God will flow. But the ideal is that the head of that authority structure should be submitted to God. So verse Corinthians 11 and verse three, it says, you know, the head of every man is Christ, the head of the woman is the man, the head of Christ is God. So head of woman is man, head of man is Christ, head of Christ is God. So there's an authority structure. Ultimately, the work of God is flowing through that structure. And the ideal would be each one is submitted ultimately to God. So the head of the woman is the man, but the man is submitted to Christ. And even as Christ, as he walked on the earth as Son of God, was in submission to the Father. So that's God's intent that these authority structures are in submission to Him. Now, in practice, that may not happen at the home. The husband may not be in submission to Christ. Hopefully in the church, the pastor is in submission to Christ. In the workplace, you know, the manager, the head may or may not be in submission to Christ. And the government and the leaders may or may not be in submission to Christ. But ideal is, okay, you have everybody in submission. So God's purposes can be fulfilled. The second thing is we recognize that. Let me share the PDF so we can look at it while I'm talking from it. All right. So you can see the PDF then. Okay. So this is what I just, I was discussing this question. In what sense are these authorities by God? We recognize first that God has instituted governmental authority. They're there because God put them there. And the intent is that God's God's purposes would flow through that. Those authority structures. Second, we also recognize that these leaders are in place because God in His providence has, you know, has permitted them to be there. So in one sense, God's, God has, okay, I love them there. But keep in mind God's permission does not imply God's approval of all that is said and done. Right. Just because that God has permitted them there. And we will see that man also has a role to play in this in who comes into power. We'll see that later. But God has, you know, permitted that. Okay. These structures. Okay. Where, you know, these people are there. So for example, if two people get married, obviously the husband is the head. Now, the husband is there because they got married. They made the choice to get married. But the moment that marriage takes place, that marriage has come under a structure that God has put, which is the institution of marriage. And by becoming part of that institution, the husband has the place of authority in that marriage, in the place of headship. So again, I want to use the word authority in the sense that he is not superior to the woman, but he's in the place of responsibility for that household. By virtue of them entering into the institution that was already set up by God. So the institution is set up by God. God permits anyone to enter into that institution. And the intent is, you know, that through that institution, the purpose of God will take place on the earth. But just because people enter into that institution doesn't imply God's approval of everything that is said and done in that institution, in that particular situation. So keep that in mind. So, you know, with the specific authority, that's an institution set up by God. It's an ordinance by God, kings, rulers, elected officials, you know, dictators. They all come into that institution because that's an expression of civic authority. Now, God could carry out his purpose there or they become, they end up doing a lot of harm and wrong. But God in his sovereignty can at times use them to carry out his purposes. We will see that. So God's permission, recognize the fact that God has permitted these people to come into authority. And if we look at these scriptures, you know, Psalm 756 and 7, it says exaltation doesn't come from east or west, but God is the judge. He puts down one exalts another. So there is the hand of God that can be involved in bringing people into places of power. Daniel 221, Daniel, you know, states this. He says, you know, God changes times and seasons. He removes kings, raises up kings. So it is God who's involved in the affairs of men in this way. He's, he can bring kings in and he can put them in places of power. And in Daniel 4, we see this repeated many, many times with regards to Nebuchadnezzar says that the most high rules in the kingdom of men, and he gives it to whomever he wills, you know. So that means God can put whomever he wills in the place of power. And he can bring whomever he wants into places of power. So we see examples in scripture. I think about Pharaoh. Pharaoh was in that place and God worked through Pharaoh to cause his power to be displayed. Think about Saul and David. Saul was actually at some point, he went away from his place with God and then he started, you know, persecuting David. And yet David calls Saul, the Lord's anointed, even though at that point, Saul was really not where he should be with God. He was actually under, you know, some form of demonic influence. He was doing things that were wrong. He wanted to kill David. And yet David says, he's the Lord's anointed. I won't touch him. You know, he respected the fact that God had brought him there, although right now Saul was acting or behaving or conducting himself in a way that was totally out of line with God's ways. Nebuchadnezzar, you know, God used him to judge his own people. And Nebuchadnezzar came to a place where he recognized who God was. Cyrus, a Persian king who was moved by God to let the Jews return and rebuild the temple in Jerusalem and the city of Jerusalem. So these leaders, it does not mean that everything they'd said and did was from God. No, but they were in some way used by God or let's say God in some way carried out his purposes, even though they were not perfect people at, you know, perfect leaders or godly leaders. Surely Pharaoh, Nebuchadnezzar and Cyrus, they were not godly leaders, but God worked his purposes through them in relation to something he wanted done. We are not saying that everything Nebuchadnezzar did was God's purpose. We are not saying everything Cyrus did was what God wanted him to do. That's not what we're saying. Certain things that Cyrus did or a certain thing that Cyrus did, certain things that Nebuchadnezzar did and saw he was initially, you know, recognized by God and then after that he fell away from that. Or certain things that Pharaoh did. God worked through that to reveal himself. So what we are saying is it is God was given these people to permission to come into their places of authority. It doesn't mean that, you know, everything they say and do is approved by God. What we are saying is God can use them or work through them or work out his purposes through certain things they say and do. He will carry out his purposes. So same thing in, when you look at Pilate and when Jesus is standing before Pilate, he says, you know, Jesus, you know, so Pilate says, look, you know, I've got the power to have you crucified or have you released. You know, don't you recognize that? And then Jesus responds is, look, you know, you could have no power unless it had been given to you from above. You know, so think about it. You could have no power unless it's given to you from above. Jesus is recognizing, you know, you are there in your place because God's permitted that, you know, and God's allowed you to be in this place. And he has, and therefore you have this power. Now, this statement which can throw some of us off. Jesus said, therefore, the one who delivered me to you has the greatest sin. So he's not implicating God the Father as having greatest sin. He's just pointing out to the fact that Judas and the Jews who delivered Jesus to Pilate, they are responsible. They are the ones with the greatest sin, right? So it's not talking about God the Father having greatest sin. He recognizes that Pilate is in this place of power and authority because God the Father, our God had allowed him to be there. And so we also recognize that. Okay, God, thank you. You have permitted so and so to be in authority and leadership. And so therefore we recognize that you are God who can work through your purposes through such a person, even if they may not be righteous. They may not be perfect. You can still work your purposes through them. Now, of course, being in that place of authority, there is responsibility, right? So technically, they are supposed to represent God. They're supposed to do what's right and just before God. And if they choose to do wicked, like Prop 17-15 says, if we justify the wicked and condemn the just, then that's an abomination before the Lord. God's not going to accept it, right? So just because these men or these people are in place of authority and they're part of God's ordinance of God's authority structure doesn't mean that... And though they call God's ministers, doesn't mean that everything they do is approved by God. Their actions will also be judged by God. And we also recognize that people of the land have influence on who comes into authority, right? Prop 18-21 says, because of the transgression of the land, many are its princes. And the people do what they're doing and that impacts what kind of government they have. If the people are righteous and they're not, let's say, doing things that they need to be doing, then obviously the land's going to have a revolving government. People are going to come in and out of power. And so the land is going to suffer. So the choices and actions of the people of the land does influence who comes into place of authority. So we can't rule that out. Now in democratically elected government, yeah, people are the ones who are having the choice. They go and vote and they are making the choice of whom they want to be in leadership and we're not ruling that out. And we recognize, number five, that God can steer the leaders for specific purposes. So Prop 21-21 was one, the king's heart is in the hand of the Lord and like rivers of water, he turns it wherever he wishes. So I went through all this so that we kind of understand what Paul is telling us here in Romans 13, verses one through A, that we are submitting to civic authority and we are giving honor to whom honor is due. We recognize them that the leaders were there are part of an institution that God has put in place. And even if they are ungodly, even if they are corrupt, unjust, we recognize that God can still work out his purposes through them. And therefore, we pray, we intercede and we expect that God will work out his purposes through them. And ultimately we know that God is final authority so that God can override, God can stop them, God can intervene and override the wrong that they may intend to do. So God, in response to our prayers, God can override or intervene in that manner. But from our side, we will respect them as the scripture teaches us here. We will do what is good, we will do what's right, just and fair and now, you know, walk in righteousness and we will not fight what they are doing, fight what the leaders are doing. But as long as it does not violate what God has said, right, so that brings us to the next question as to what extent we submit to governing authorities. So we submit in all things as long as we do not contradict the laws of God. So this is where we make the choice that if it is contradicting the law of God, that's when we have a right to listen to God rather than man. So next 418 to 20, I see an example and also next 520 to 28 and 29. In both instances, they were instructed not to preach and teach in the name of Jesus. And, you know, the apostles just responded, you know, we ought to be God rather than man. So, you know, if it is a matter of personal choices, I mean, you know, for example, there's this whole thing about last year, this year, there's this whole thing about the pandemic and, you know, some people are wearing masks, some people don't want to wear masks, some people get vaccinated, some people don't want to get vaccinated. And almost everywhere, the governments are, you know, encouraging people, you know, wear your mask, get vaccinated, we need to bring this thing under control. Most places, that's the way the government, that's the approach of the government. And then there are people who say, no, no, it's against my faith, you know, and that's, so that's a big question mark, you know. So, okay, somebody may have faith that God is the healer and God is the protector. But then this is not something that's contradicting the law of God. Right. Yes, you have faith. But then my faith is also telling me to submit to authorities. And they're not telling me to do something against the law of God. Right. And so, you know, so there's so much of, especially in the western world, there's been so much of in the church. There's been so much of debate and arguments and fighting about these things. It's rather sad to see that. But what should we do? Well, the Bible says, don't resist the ordinance of God. Don't resist the ordinance of God. Romans 13 too. Right. Don't resist the authority. They're not telling you to do something that's contradicting the law of God. See, they seem saying people who refuse to get vaccinated will go to the doctors. So it's not like, okay, I'm not getting medical assistance at any point. You're going to go to the doctor for whatever reason, or they would, you know, do other things to defend themselves, carry guns and so on. And these same people refuse to wear masks, you know. So it's kind of sad to see these kinds of things. But the scriptures are telling us very clearly, we submit to the ordinance of God, submit to the authority, a civic authority, recognizing that they are ordinance of God. And the only situation that we have here, where man chose not to obey civic authority, God's people chose not to obey civic authority. It was in the case of the proclamation of the gospel. And that's when they said, look, we have to obey God, because this was a clear contradiction to the Great Commission, where Jesus said, go and preach the gospel. Right. And they're telling them, don't preach. So look, we're going to obey God. So that's in, it's in those cases that we say, no, we're going to obey God rather than man. No, some things I just want to mention here in the light of this is, you know, God has Jesus told us to go preach the gospel. If the government says don't preach, we're still going to preach, but we must be careful not to violate other people's personal space or don't violate government space. That means, you know, if the government says, you know, we don't want you to preach the gospel. Yeah. But we can preach the gospel in our space. That means in your home, you know, you can preach the gospel. It's your home. But don't, you know, don't go into an office, somebody's office and try to preach the gospel or don't go into somebody else's home where they don't welcome and, you know, violate their space. So those are things we just, they just, you know, we're being respectful of other people, respectful of the government, even though we are going to preach the gospel. If the government says don't preach, we are going to preach, but don't violate government space or somebody else's personal space while we proclaim the gospel, just basic honor and respect for people and for the government to that degree. Right. A couple of other related questions is, is it right for us to express a concern to stand against injustice, wickedness, you know, so while we walk in submission to government, we can and must use our rights as citizens to express our ideas and raise our voice against injustice and wickedness. So, when we do that, we are not necessarily resisting the government. If the government is telling us to do the government is if there's injustice, there's wickedness, maybe even expressed through the government, then using the freedoms we have, we can express our voice. Right. For example, the scriptures teach us, you know, verse 25, verse five, take away the wicked from before the king or the people in authority and then his throne will be established in righteousness. Now, in our context, we would say, okay, you know, if we can raise the voice of righteousness before those in leadership, then we're going to help there, the government to be established in righteousness. So we just translate that to our modern day context. Our Prop 31 Bible says, you know, open your mouth for the speechless. And the cause of those who are appointed, open your mouth, judge righteously and plead the cause of the poor needy. That means, you know, for those who have no voice, you become their voice. For those who are facing injustice, and you become their voice. And for those who are oppressed or poor and needy, you become their voice. So it's a valid thing for us to express, by the exercise of our rights as citizens, to express our voice. So one last thing here is, you know, when Paul is in Romans 13 is referring to them as civic leaders, as God's ministers, using the same word as deacons. So as long as they're doing righteousness, we cooperate, we accept. But if there is injustice, then that's when, you know, we need to do what we can within the framework of our rights as citizens to express our concerns. And ultimately, you know, in 1 Peter chapter 2, even if we are wrongfully treated, we take it and we let God indicate us. 1 Peter chapter 2 verse 13-25, we do express our voice, but then if, you know, if it's overridden, there's oppression. That's when we say, God, you step in, you intervene, but we will just, you know, we are okay. We accept being wrongfully treated because of our faith, but you step in and you intervene. That's 1 Peter 2. Right. So let me pause you and see if we have any questions or any thoughts to discuss on this. I know we can, you know, really ask a lot of questions on this, especially in the light of what we have been seeing in the Western world in the last couple of years. And also in our context in India, what we are currently seeing in terms of the oppression of free speech that's been quite harsh, you know, in the last two years, the suppression of free speech and what seems to be rising now is another wave of persecution against Christians, against churches, intense though. It seems to be on the rise, you know, there was a lull and then it seems to be back up rising again. So in the light of all that, there can be a lot of questions, you know, in terms of how do we relate to a government like this? How do we, you know, what should we do, what should we not do? So if you have questions you want to discuss, you know, it's a good time to do that. How about things in Kathmandu, Dave? Does the government interfere too much with the church and activities? I know there was a time when things were tough for Christian missionaries. Yeah, missionary, in the term of missionary, missionary work is still kind of a bit hard. Like, actually we, even though we are somehow one of the biggest churches, but we are not yet registered in the government as a registered organization. And our church is not registered as an organization, but we are under an organization that is kind of a social work and some other kind of organization. So we have, we are under the wing and like missionary work and some other, like even our gospel sharing and these kind of things are quite bit hard right now. Sometimes we hear people being arrested. Before the second wave, there was a pastor from Phukhara. He was arrested because he did some kind of supernatural preaching and supernatural healing on a YouTube platform. So yeah, actually they were praying against the coronavirus, but somehow the people turned it and made it some other kind of thing. And then he had to go to jail and get out of it, bailed and then again he went to a different place and then he was arrested there again. So these kind of things are happening and most of the foreign ministers, foreigners, now it's being very subtle now because right before pandemic I think. And they kicked out a group from Kathmandu because they were, they were in burden in a ministry and they had a Bible school. Not the former one, but the former one like kind of training and they were involved in a church, local church that they had. But somehow they were complaining and they found out and they were kicked out and they were to let them come into the country again. So those things are happening quite, yeah. Even now also most of the things are open already, like the temples are open and the malls are open, the schools are open, but that's what hasn't been open yet. I mean the government, I don't know whether they will, even after the first wave they didn't say you can open the church or things like that. But personally in our place we've seen, I myself have encountered the secret police coming in civil race. I've come quite a few times trying to go inside the church and trying to find out whether we are doing services or not. So it has been going on like that. So it's kind of, those kind of situations. Right. So, yeah, and you know, in India of course, right now, there's like I mentioned, there's this wave of persecution in North and even now starting up in the South, like in our own state of Karnataka. And we know so on the one hand, we respect and we pray for the leaders. But on the other hand, it is right for us to, you know, exercise the privileges we have as citizens to protect ourselves and to do the things we are permitted to do by law. And then, you know, it's right for us to exercise that and walk with wisdom, walk with honor. Okay. Let's pause here with this first session. If there are any other thoughts or questions, we'll pick them up right after the break. But this definitely is quite interesting area to talk about, you know, the church's relation to the government, the civic authorities, how should we relate. There are a lot of, you know, questions along these lines. Okay, we'll take a break and we'll be back in 10 minutes. Thank you.