 Hello, welcome to Clock Talk. I'm Crystal here on Think Tech Hawaii this Tuesday morning at 11 o'clock. So question, what do you usually wear to the beach? I know Hawaii everybody wears whatever they want. Usually the skimpier the better. And it's a healthy thing though because we're all so rooted into our nakedness and earthiness. So it's not an issue. But what about in other parts of the world? Now recently there's been a huge controversial issue about what people should be wearing and what's being banned and what women should not be wearing or should cover up wearing. I think you know where I'm going with this. We're talking about bikinis. I'm going to talk about the issues raised because of the ban in France and why and how we see ourselves and what we should have the rights to wear on the beach as females and males. So speaking of male, guess who I picked up off the street today to join in this conversation this morning? Just for a little bit, you've got our wonderful Jay here. Thank you Jay. You know Jay's like, what am I doing here talking about bikinis? What the heck is a bikini? Have you heard about that term? I've heard the term but I need you to define it for me. Okay. So a bikini is technically, well it's a newly coined term, it's not a technical term at all, between the burqa which is the Muslim veil that covers the whole body and a bikini. And in light of the terrorist attack in France over the summer, France had imposed a ban on the bikinis, basically women who were dressed covered up on the beach. So it became an illegal thing to be covered up on the beach in France because they celebrate the body, obviously. So it's not a bikini, it's a burqa. It's an ordinary burqa. No, I'll show you a picture. Well this is the picture of the actual case where these police came in and asked this poor lady who was just resting there by herself innocently to take off her outer garment. But none of the other people on the beach are taking off. Well they have nothing to take off. So she has to take off her outer garment in order to be on the beach. This would be okay on the street. Yes. So they're thinking, do you think it's strange? I think it's strange. What's the difference on the street on the beach? Well they're exactly. Wear an overcoat if you want, you know. Right. No, bring up these issues. This is why it's so important to have even a man's perspective on this because for us women there's a huge uproar. What is it with the French? What is it with the French? They're saying they want women to wear skimpy clothes on the beach. Yeah, they're celebrating the body. You know, I'm with them on that. I like skimpy clothes. Okay, I figured that. The less the better. The less is more. But think about it. Their reason is because especially in light of the recent terrorist attack they felt that by wearing a burqa or anything associated with the Muslim religion, they felt it was actually kind of a provoking and non-respectful for people who were grieving victims of the attack that was happening at that same beach. At the beach. But not on the street. Just the beach. No. Right. It's really hard to put that together. Well that's why it's so crazy. But, you know, I think it's worth looking at the motivation. All right. So from a political... It's as simple as just, you know, beating up people at the beach. I think they feel that the burqa is a statement. Yes. And it's a statement that perhaps sometimes that's threatening. And intentionally so. I mean, they've concluded that it's a statement that is intentionally threatening. So do you think these women thought they were intentionally threatening by just being there with their... Not at the beach. Right. The whole beach they caught, you know, the beach distinction doesn't seem rational to me. Right. That's a little extreme. There's another photo we have of a couple of ladies on the beach where there's a lady in her normal wear because it's just her culture to cover up her body next to all the normal bathers. Now why is that offensive to people? Is that against the law in France? Yes. In fact... Why is she there then? She's allowed to swim. She likes the water. Yes. This is a different lady. But there have been many cases where the police will go on after the ban and they will find them. I think it was 38 euros for wearing a burqa on the beach. 38 euros. 38 euros. 45 bucks or something. That's not cheap, right? That's not cheap. And so this picture that you've just shown us is a picture just before the other picture where the police come and rest her. No, it's a different lady. No, but theoretically the police are about to arrive, you know, at the beach. Oh, yes. That picture... And arrest that woman or charge her 38 dollars, 38 euros for what she's doing. These cops would be standing on the beach waiting for her to get out of the water. I don't understand. Everyone will be watching. I must say, I don't understand. I can understand, you know, their concern about people making sort of an anti-French statement by wearing burqas in certain situations. Right. But the beach, is the French beach different from any other beach? Exactly. Why is the beach different than the street? And do you know that in France they actually banned the burqa in the city, in the street, since 2004? Yeah. But they changed their minds about it. Yes, because of all the noise. So there's a, you know, a tension on this point. Yes. And it isn't going to go away. Yes. And I think, you know, part of it, although it's a little misguided, part of it is that the burqa, you know, enables you to conceal your identity. Right. And if you are a terrorist, even a man terrorist, and you put a burqa on, you know, nobody knows who you are. Okay, yes. So that's more... Doing something, yeah. Right. But if you're on the beach, you find that also unnecessary, that's bad. I personally do, but you know, the French beach is a different beach. Let's talk about the French culture. I mean, you may not know this crystal, but there are many, many beaches in France where you can see naked. Have you been to a nude beach? Come on, let's hear it, Jay. And what happens is there's a table, right, that you can always eat in France and drink. On the beach? On the beach. Okay. Or just off the beach. At the table, you can face into the water. Or you can face, you know, mocha into the mountains, right? And my wife is a really sweet person. She allows me to sit at that position on the table where I look into the beach. She's a very nice person. Wait, but do you want to look towards the nude people on the beach? So you're facing towards the people. So if I'm on the table, I want to see what's on the beach. Right. And what's on the beach is frequently naked women. And how do you feel about that? I feel that that's something that we... Earl, you're all smiles. I'm all smiles because I think it's charming in its own way. No matter what they look like, what age, what shape, what size. What's up to them. Background. You know, for everyone who looks dumpy, there's a lot of them in France that don't look so dumpy. And I'm always trying to make that distinction. So that's why you're there. You know, you're educating yourself on the body shapes. I have a, you know, a glass of beer and maybe some food sitting at the table. But you're a worldly man. You're well traveled. What do you think? I mean, because in Asia, parts of the world, they don't even wear it because of a religious reason. It's because of the sun. You know, Chinese people hate the sun. They will cover themselves. But Asian people are modest. They don't do immodest things. They would not be naked at the beach. Yeah, they're extreme. I have a picture. In fact, you know, this is... And, you know, all this noise about the bikinis. There is a picture of these ladies all lined up, I believe, here. This was taken in China. Look at the beautiful, like, ninja-esque costumes. I say costumes, but they're swimsuits for people who don't want to be exposed to the sun. Now, that's a cultural acceptance. It's not even an issue. That is cultural, isn't it? Right. They don't want to be exposed to the sun. Which one do you like? Which one would you wear? But it also serves. The panda or the tiger? I need to see more. Okay. But it also serves this whole Asian thing about being modest. Right. That's a statement of modesty also. It's kooky. So question is, when you travel to a place, is it important for a tourist to respect and understand the culture of that place before you know how to dress appropriately on the beach? Yes. I mean, it goes to being a tourist in general, doesn't it? Yes. You want to know and respect the culture, period. I mean, you don't want to be disruptive to the culture. You want to be offensive. You want to be the ugly American or the ugly anybody. But that happens all the time anyway. It happens all the time, but it's not desired. Right. You'd really rather get familiar with what's going on and try to be harmonious with it. So going back to the Burkini issue is, do you think that the women, if they were Muslim, should be educated enough to know that it's not proper to cover themselves up and respect their own religious culture to keep it? So where do you draw the line? Well, I think it's a much larger issue, isn't it? It is. It's an issue of culture. It's an issue of politics. It's an issue of protest. Extremism. It's an issue of terrorism sometimes. Yes, huge. So I don't think it comes to the end just by making it illegal to wear a burka on the beach. That's just a cosmetic issue. The real issue is how are these women and their families getting along with the French government? How is the French government treating them? And we have similar issues in this country, by the way. Okay, let's hear it. Well, I mean, there are people who are offended by seeing a burka. I don't think there's any place in the country where you could actually enact a law against it. But I think a lot of people don't like it. Yeah, it's too sensitive now. But have you seen it on the beaches in Hawaii? I haven't. No, I have not. Yeah. What would you do if you did? Would that be an eyesore to you? Would you be like with that lady? Would you be gawking? Which one? Well, you're the big one, right? No. How would you feel? I'd feel... Would you feel offended? No, I just feel it was strange. Okay. I feel it's strange for a woman to pack all that equipment just to go in the water. Okay, but you would respect that. She's got to feel strongly about her culture. And you know, queried is that... Is it really... Is she being, you know, sensitive to the culture around her? Right. You know, there's another issue there. But she's not trying to. And so, look at this lady. She's just sitting there. I mean, she'll touch you once again in a way. No, that's the way she is. Yeah, and there's a modesty there. It's the only religious... I don't think she's even caring about that little red, pretty red kitty. Right. One of the red does her thing and the one of the burka does her thing. Yeah, right. But the French, you know, I'm going to quote this one French mayor from the Riviera, he says, you don't want to live the way we do. Don't come. That's the problem in France. Yeah. I mean, this is much more than the beach. Right. You know, there was a thing about going to the schools too. Yes. The schools didn't want to have kids in burkas and they would refuse them entry. Right. And I don't know how that got worked out, but that was the same kind of issue. Yeah, exactly. And how do you educate your kids about this? When your kids go and see people in schools or on the beach, what's that conversation? Well, I think in France, you know, the French people are very, I mean, it's a very strong culture. People believe in it. It's a nationalistic kind of culture. And so you say to yourself, you know, we care a lot about our culture. We care about everything French. This is not French. So if these people want to be with us in our country, they have to abide by our French culture. They're sticking a finger in our eye by ignoring our French culture and, you know, acting out on their culture. Do you think that they're right to impose this? No, I'm just saying that's what the French attitude is. Okay. In this country, you don't have that, you know, because we have so many cultures going on. We are, on this kind of thing, I think, more tolerant. Okay. Well, thank you for your opinion. But before I let you go, Jay, I'm going to have you, you know, we always need to flip the other side of the coin to see how we're all talking about the women on the beach. But let me just give you this image. What do you think about this? If you were on the beach, would you feel offended by that? Or are you, you know, you've been to nude beaches and that could be you. In fact, that is you. Thank you for that. I appreciate that. What do you think? I think he's embarrassing himself. Oh, so you don't like little teabags, huh? I think there's nothing macho about that. There's nothing aesthetic about it. Right. He looks like maybe Donald Trump would look if he really had it through Bay. Without his pay. And, you know, it reminds me of that statue of Donald Trump that they were positioning all around the country to naked Donald, you remember that? Oh, no. I don't want to see that. But this is not really complementary to walk around like that. Okay, so that's a man's perspective on a little male, I don't know what you call that, a teabag. But we'll see if you can put one on one day and see how you feel and how people judge you on the beach next time. You may have a long wait. Oh, okay. Well, I'll take that chance. Thank you so much for coming, Jay. We're going to take a quick break and we're going to continue talking about burkinis and whatnot about the body. Thank you. Aloha. How are you doing? Welcome to Ibaachi Talk. I'm here at Gardo the Texar on Think Tech, Hawaii. And I'm here with my good old buddy, Andrew, the security guy. Hey, everybody. How are you doing? Aloha. Thank you for watching. Good to have Andrew here in the house. Please join us every Friday from 1 to 1.30 and follow us up on YouTube. And remember, as we say at the end of every show, how are you doing? Aloha. I'm Kirsten Baumgart, Turner, host of Sustainable Hawaii. We livestream every Tuesday from noon to 12.30. You get a chance to hear what people are doing about sustainability in Hawaii and what the issues are impacting all of us in all the islands. Join us, please. Aloha. My name is Mark Shklav. I am the host of Law Across the Sea. Please join me every other Monday to hear lawyers from Hawaii discussing ways to reach across the sea and help people and bring people together. Aloha. Aloha, everyone. I'm Maria Mera, and I'm here to invite you to my bilingual show, Viva Hawaii, every other Monday at 3 p.m. We are here to show you news, issues and events local and around the world. Join me. Hey, how are you doing? Welcome to Abachi Talk. My name is Andrew Lening. I'm your co-host. And we have a nice program here every Friday at 1 o'clock on Think Tech Studios where we talk about technology and we have a little bit of fun with it. So join us if you can. Thanks. Aloha. Yeah. Okay, welcome back. So thank you, Jay, again, for coming in for a male perspective on the Burkini. And now we're going to welcome our other guest. She is an advanced certificate major in women's studies, PhD student in sociology at UH. Welcome, Joy. How do you pronounce your last name? I don't want to do it wrong. La Cañanta. That's perfect. Oh, thank you. La Cañanta. Thank you for having me. And, Joy, I understand you, a community organizer for over 20 years. So you're very 23, all right. So you're very, very active in the community. So how do you feel as a woman with ethnic background, being in Hawaii, about this whole Burkini issue? Do you think it's so... What's your position on the ban in France? Let's just start with that. Okay. Well, it's all about, like, the policing of the women's body. Right. More than anything. Like, it doesn't have to be the Burkini, but it also has a lot to do with just policing the women's body and taking away the women's voice in terms of what she can do with her body. Right. It's actually the women's preference and whatever she wears. I mean, if they're going to ban the Burkini, they should ban the scarves that the French women are so famously wearing for. I mean, does it matter if it's on the head or is it on the neck? Right. But it's really more of a statement about the intersection of race. Yes. And the intersection of, you know, pressing gender and also the whole patriarchal issue of imposing dominance and superiority for what we perceive as the other. Right. So, see, women's studies lingo here. We have to bring all that in. Objectification. That's a huge one, too. I mean, do you think that this issue raised that self-objectification other than the fact that they've taken away a woman's voice by just imposing a rule on how she should dress on the beach? Right. Yes. And it really doesn't matter what a woman wears on the beach. It's her body. I mean, we... It's particularly in... If you go to Europe, if you go to France and Mies and the beaches over there, men wear thongs. Right. We just missed a nice sexy... Oh, did you see that sexy shot? Yes, yes, I did. So, what do you think? Is that offensive to you? That is more offensive to me than the Burkini, I have to say. Right. Me, too. That's just like going to ruin my lunch, you know, if I saw that. And when you go to Thailand, all the dumpy old German guys who go over there for a little, you know, retreat, and they all dress like that. And it's like, oh... Yeah, why? It's more... What is not just the piecing to the eyes, but it's also revolting. Thank you. But they don't ask our permission if you want to see that, right? Right. Exactly. Why is there not a ban on the skimpiness on an ugly male body? Right. I mean, there is kind of like a law, I mean, especially in the United States about, you know, not being undressed or naked in front of the, you know, public places and whatnot. Right. But I think it's just, this is more targeted for a specific group of people. Yes. A specific race of folks. Yes. And more particularly a specific religion and faith... Right. Faith-based beliefs. Yeah. But that's the thing, you know, when we talk about religion, this race is a huge issue and we don't really have time to go so in-depth into it. But this is a sensitive issue, but they're assuming that all of people who cover their bodies are Muslim, which is not the case. In fact, they say, I think, 40% of the salespeople, I mean, people who buy the Burkini's online or wherever it's accessible, are not Muslim. They're Jewish, a lot of Asians who, I spoke to Jay about how they just cover it because they don't like the sun. Right. And I mean, it's an SPF protection, right? Exactly. If you're not happy with the SPF 100, then the best thing to do is put, you know, clothing. I mean, that's the... I mean, it's a self-protection, but I think the whole politicization about the Burkini issue is really heightened by, you know, they're relating it to something that it's not, which is terrorism. Right. Right. I mean, but it's kind of like a misguided and misdirected... Is it oversimplification of the issue? Yeah, and fear. It's out of fear and what are you going to hide under a Burkini for crying out loud, right? Right. But it's really that the images that the Western society wants to project to vilify something that is not them. Right. So, I mean, if I can quote some folks, you know, in terms of the generalized other that I mentioned, Simone de Beauvoir wrote and really coined the phrase women as the other. Right. Right. So you're just heightening the sense of women being not just objectified, but really, did you even ask their opinion about how they feel about wearing the Burkini? It's nobody else's business, but your own self. But where do you draw the line between, you know, because it's such an extremism culturally for Muslim women to grow up to cover themselves in the public. Right. I mean, how much do you respect that and where does it go to an offensive side where people should step in and say, well, come on, this is really affecting how my children are going to view what is appropriate and not appropriate. Yeah, that's why it's really hard to separate these intersecting issues about how people grow up in the culture in the belief system. For example, the Muslim religion really believes in covering up the body. Right. And Layla Bulagod, an author at Harvard, wrote this beautiful book about do Muslim women need saving, you know, in terms of the covering of the head and all that stuff. Is it really bad for them? Are they really, really unhappy? Is it an oppressed thing? But not all Muslim women have to wear the covering on the head. It's a choice. And I think that's what's being taken away, the right of a woman to voice out what they want to wear. You know, it's your choice, it's your body, and that you're being vilified in terms of images in the media. Yeah. Well, that's... I mean, there are so many angles we can take this, but to go back onto the beach where this whole controversy is arising, because, you know, I agree with you, there's all that you need to take into consideration. On the beach specifically, should they ban this? I mean, there's a quote, there's somebody who said that that swimsuit becomes you. Which is interesting, because culturally, or just for gender reasons, or who you are as an identity, how you choose that bikini or not bikini or bikini, does that reflect who you are inside? I think it's more of a commercial plot to promote certain bikinis, because we're not born with bikinis in mind. What do you wear to the beach? Well, I wear my local... I'm a local girl, so I wear the shorts, and, you know, sometimes a tank top and all that stuff. So tell me, is local girl, when you say that, do you think that locals are more reserved about the bodies on the beach? No. I mean, I think it's very different from one local girl to another local person, you know, it's just... or a local man to not. I've seen some local boys just wear shorts or whatever, and some wear jeans to the beach, whatever they feel or whatever they have. Yeah. It's not so much of an issue. It's not easy. I think for us here, particularly in Hawaii, who live in an island lifestyle, right, it's far more relaxed. That's why it's such a departure, but I have seen a lot of my friends from Japan come here, and they wear those suits, you know. Right, just protecting the sun. It's not because they don't want to be exposed. And those shark, I mean, the shark skin type of... the long sleeve things that they wear, it's like a rash guard that they wear for surfing. It's because they keep going back and forth from the surfboard. Yeah. But if somebody... See, so you're talking about something normal because of the sun and protection of the skin, but like a lady like that who's obviously wearing it for religious reasons, covering her head with a scarf, that is deemed offensive to some people. And it's just... And I think we have to ask, why? Yeah. Why is it offensive? Why is it associated to extremism and terrorism? Just because, I mean, this is how simplified we're turning into. Right. It's really scary. Right. Why is it scary? I think we have to keep looking at the fact that it's an issue about that's being politicized that it's not supposed to be politicized. It's a women's choice. We have to keep asking the important questions, asking the important critical thinking type of questions of instead of putting the focus on the woman that's wearing the particular clothing that they deem offensive, we have to ask ourselves, why do you feel like it's offensive? Why is it scaring you? Right. Why are you so afraid of a woman wearing whatever she wants to on the beach because she has a certain belief system? Yes. You know, so that's it. And to educate yourself in understanding the different belief systems all over the world. Right. Because, you know, in Asia it's quite funny because in Nepal, for example, they're quite reserved too, but there is a recent case where there are a bunch of American tourists out there to a very religious site and took their clothes off to take selfies in front of it and people were horrified. It's so disrespectful. Why do you not understand the culture and respect it? Right, right. Which is the other extreme. Right. Right. So, and also this belief that the Western society is the baseline of what we should follow. That's a good point. You know, so, I mean, we don't live in a silo. We don't live in a position where it's just us. I mean, for lack of a better term, we don't live in an island, so to speak. I mean, we're part of a global society. We should be. Right. And that we need to really pay attention to other people's belief system and just you don't have to agree with it but you don't have to disrespect it like what you said. Well, how important do you think it is for parents to educate their kids and how do you do that? Because last night I was looking through all these bikini issues. I was headed on my computer and my 10-year-old son came over and goes, oh, what do you do? And I said, you know, in France you're not allowed to wear that. And he says, what? He thought it was the most ridiculous thing because he didn't know the context of linking it to the terrorists. But even as an innocent kid who just sees that, they don't see that. It's weird like imposing these judgments on these kids. Right. It's really an imposition like what you said and it's kind of like imposing your value system on other people. Right. You know, and saying that I'm right, you're wrong. So it's very petty. At the heart of it, it's a petty belief system. Yeah. I mean, something simple like this is a very common sight in the European beach with a Muslim woman doing her thing and everyone else in their little bikinis. And where's the harm in that? Yeah, I don't see any harm in that. And then the poor woman gets fined for doing that kind of thing. For being herself. For being herself, for believing in herself. And I think that the more attention that we put into the matter, the more we talk about it in these type of medians, the more we inform people about how ridiculous this issue is. Yes. So is it ridiculous for us to talk about it? No, I think it's important. It's critical for us to discuss it so that people can make an informed decision because if you don't talk about it, you accept the law or whatever as truth and we don't even know why. Yeah. So a healthy discourse about questioning this, questioning certain laws or rules that is really infringing on the rights. What is one suggestion you would give out to people who are listening to our show right now in terms of opening their perspective on how we women perceive our bodies? Women have a right to our bodies. Basically that's the main point. We have a right to make sure that we have a say in what we do and what we wear and how to express ourselves, you know. And also it is our obligation to challenge these notions of oppressive thinking, you know, and also to challenge ignorance because basically the bottom line is this law, these fines towards these women are gender-based. It's really targeted for women of a certain culture, of a certain belief system and because only women are being targeted, there's a basic human rights issue that we're overling. Absolutely. Well, there you go. We'll send it with that. Humans' rights, basic things, you know. So again, empower yourselves with perspective. Ignorance is not bliss. Knowledge is power. So like smart joy here, always furthering her studies. Do the same for yourselves and just make your own judgments and don't be judged or let things judge you. Okay. All right. Thank you for tuning in and I hope you enjoy the beach. Thank you for having you, Joy, for coming and sharing your perspective. Thank you for having me. Bye-bye.