 Great to have you back on the breakfast on a plus TV Africa a first major conversation for today goes to the southeast to where there seems to be a Blame game and back and forth you know between the current emu state governor and of course the former governor of emu state Orocha Orocha the IPOB has also joined in the discussion, you know and blamed security agencies in the state For brutalizing they've even used words like a genocide in the southeast, you know by police officers And of course by the APC government the sides the IPOB the governor of the state who put hope was a dimma and the former state governor Orocha Orocha are also exchanging blame So the cause of security challenges currently, you know Bedevlin emu state a few days ago, of course the governor was quoted as saying that some of those suspects arrested You know said that they were sent by Orocha Orocha But of course this morning in the news that we shared, you know, the governor once again has said that or Failed to reveal those sponsors of terrorism in the state. We're speaking this morning with barista justice Webu who is a human rights lawyer. Thank you very much for joining us and good morning Thank you. It is my pleasure once more. Happy new year to everybody. Same to you Let's first of all, you know start with some clarity to us as to what exactly is going on in emu state You know, we will eventually look at the southeast But emu state seems to be the one making headlines with regards to security challenges in the last few weeks Yes, it's actually quite unfortunate that emu state that Hospitality Home of terror Unfortunately or unfortunate, let me put it that way. I am from emu state. So unfortunate what we are seeing in this terror It has never been But emu state in the history of Nigeria, you can make your inquiries, emu state has been known for peace and tourism People still come into emu state any day, any time, at any hour to stay and enjoy themselves Unfortunately, everything went down. We don't actually know what is happening In other words, we know there is security all over the country. But the question is why emu state Does know that no industries in emu state, there are no major industries in emu state, no major Accuracy in emu state and all the way. So one will begin to wonder why are the you know security senior challenges in emu state. It's so unfortunate I have to tell you the truth. And I believe nobody in this country, especially from the south, is also by that idea Well, are these still situations of the unknown gone men, you know that we're talking about here Or are these just, you know attacks here and there, you know that used to be in existence Are we still to because you know, I'm sure you would also agree that the situation on the unknown gone men that plagued the southeast, you know, the last few months of 2021 You know, we don't hear a lot of those stories anymore. So is this, you know, the same unknown gone men situation in emu state? Or is this something more? Well, the truth is that, you know, this whole insecurity, actually, which was history happened About about last year especially within the period and after the time of the air transport days and all the way and emu state also became worse and worse after the what you call it the jailbreak and all the way. So many emu life started hearing this this slogan of unknown gone men. In fact, to be speaking, this thing is is unknown to to emu people. Many emu people heard about this unknown gone men, you know, for the first time. Actually, who bad always had about bad, the twin, Boko Haram, Sturgeon Steyer and others, but it has never happened in the emu state before. So unknown gone men, unknown gone men. Why are we saying unknown gone men? Yes, because they are gone men that are not known. So whether they are police officers, whether they are military officers, whether they are civil defense officers or whatever that is going on, or whether they are private individuals, provided that one cannot identify these people. That is why it is called a non-government. So in the past, you begin to see that after the jailbreak is a critical situation in emu state working somehow and it has continued that way to a certain level. All right. We seem to be struggling with feet from Barista Justice Uwebu. Once again, the conversation is on what currently is going on in emu state with regards to insecurity. Of course, reports of attacks here and there. And instead of the proper security architecture and, of course, the police clarifying where instead hearing from governors and ex-governors, it's really just to have a clear picture of what exactly might be going on in the state. Who really is to blame and whose responsibility should it be to solve these challenges, the federal government or the state government. And when we hear from the state governor, blaming former governors and former political leaders in the state for the insecurity, and I remember the report that said, and that was from the governor of the state, who was saying that one of the suspects confessed that he was sent by former governor Rocha Socorrocha. One of the things that I found peculiar was, it's pretty much the same thing that we have across Nigeria every now and then, that instead of proper security agencies and proper authorities being able to carry the full investigation, we instead hear politicians blaming themselves. It's either the APC's blaming the PDP or the PDP's blaming the APC. And now, Opus of the Mice blaming Rocha Socorrocha and saying that one of the suspects confessed that he was sent by the former governor. And when I read that story, initially I was saying to myself that I don't need to hear from the governor of Igmo State. I need to hear from the Commissioner of Police in Igmo State. I need to hear from people who are responsible. The investigating Boone's officer on those cases, not the governor. The governor is not the IPO on any of those cases. And if people are arrested, then we shouldn't be playing politics with it. Because these persons who have been arrested have committed crimes against the state and against the people of the state. And so it should be an investigation, a police investigation that should lead us somewhere to completely make Igmo State peaceful and the whole of the Southeast should be at peace again, instead of politicians scoring points with these crimes. Apparently, maybe that would be the reason why you have the governor retracting, taking the step back and saying we're going to allow the security agency, of course, at this point we're talking about the men of the Nigerian police, to go ahead and publish these names. But not to say that, because we're constantly, and that has become part of a cliche for us in the fight against insecurity. I mean, we're constantly saying that if you see something, say something. So I would also say that as much as we have information, if the governor has information about persons who are committing this crime, the right thing to do would be to report to the police and let there be proper investigation done. But in all of this that is going on, I mean, with a security situation that's going on in the South Eastern part of the country, and to be very precise, Igmo State, I ask myself, and that's the question, because he is an Igmo State, and I'm hoping to find out what the role of the security, I mean, what the role of the police has been. How far the police have been going about discharging their duties? How come we have not had a lot of persons? Because it feels like he had mentioned Igmo State is a very peaceful state prior to this time. It's a place you want to go to and have all of that peaceful. I think we do have a guest back, Barista Unwebu. It's good to have you join us back. Thank you. Okay, so maybe you just continue with the question that my colleague had posed prior to this time. Yes, like I was trying to explain. For us, we are confined, or people like us are confined, the government needs to do something, because the conditions the President provides that the main essence of government is for the welfare and security of the people. Yes, he will say something about the President's government, saying that some people are behind his security in Igmo State, and they're going to make mention of him. Fine, because if there's actually even a group of people or persons that are behind his security in any part of the country, their names should be mentioned so that the people who know, Nigeria should know, so that the Igmo people will go, I think at this stage, what I could say, the issue of, you know, looking at people, the issue of personal influence and all the rest. Thank God the governor or the state government has come up to say something. The Nigerians are waiting patiently. Igmo people are waiting patiently to know these people, so that their names will be mentioned with personal figures, so that Igmo people will actually know who are, who is their enemy in this state. So, but the question now is, do you think that, you know, the security challenges that's going on in the country is being caused by some of these persons that have been mentioned? I mean, the back and forth with, you know, the President's governor and the former governor, what are your thoughts on that? The truth is that his security all over the world, especially in Nigeria, is not made by the gods. They are all man-made. It's either failure from the government or, you know, in participation or involvement of some individual or group of people for personal interest or gain or whatever. So, it is, it cannot just come from the moon. People must be involved. People must be responsible. And people must be held accountable and not to worry about it, whether it is in Igmo state, whether it is in Nigeria or whether it is anywhere. So, that is why we are waiting patiently to hear with personal figures, the people who are actually behind the hypocrisy, the questions in Igmo state, so that we can know who is our enemy in this state. And also, if we can extend to the country, we also know who our enemy is in the country. There's nothing about it. All right. Well, kindly go on, you know, with this, because, you know, initially, I was saying, you know, that it seems like, you know, the current governor and the former governor of the state are both playing politics with these security challenges, you know, with one of them saying that the other one, you know, is very likely responsible and one of the suspects confessed that he was sent by the former governor of the state. And statements like those, does it sound like it is simply politics that is being played here? Or do they genuinely believe that one of the, you know, of the two of, maybe the former governor truly is, you know, creating chaos and insecurity in the state? Well, the situation has increased now. From the media and what is going on, speculation and all the rest, the present government is accusing the former governor and co, and the former governor is accusing the present government and all the, but that is not the issue. The issue here is this, whether it is political, whether it is personal, whether it is group or whichever other name I can call, I don't know. The most important thing here is this, the government for now is in power, and they have the duties and obligations to protect the lives and properties of the citizens. So they should do everything possible to make sure that the citizens of Imoudez are protected. So if they feel like that's what I said, with false and figures, if they feel with false and figures that they know the people who are behind it, then let them come up and say, there's nothing big deal yet. So, you see, we are supposed to have passed the era of hero worshiping, which could have come past that. And that's one of the problems we're having in Nigeria. Inasmuch as in this country, I agree that they play politics in everything, but the politics should not be played with the security and not of the people. Because both the government we're talking about, both the former governor we're talking about, both the government officials, both present and false. They are also being affected by this situation especially in this case. So do you think that, you know, the fact that, you know, let's bring this down, the need to have the security outfit called Ibibwago, do you think that this would go a long way in, you know, covering the challenges that is faced with in the southeastern part of Nigeria? And I also like to find out from you, what has been the role? I mean, how effective has the Nigerian please in Imoudez state been? Well, the truth is that, but consistently, the body started with the responsibility of protecting lives and properties of the citizens within Nigerian police. Yes, the Ibibwago can come in. Every one has a security outfit can come in. Genocide groups can come in and out of the way because of the current situation we have in the country today and especially in Imoudez. That is not bad. But remember, there must be a holistic approach to all these things. There must be a cohesion between them. There must be this integration between all the security aspects so that the security working in the state will not work in tandem with the norms and values of security challenges in the country or in that state. So it's not a matter of we have Ibibwago, we have this, we have this and all the rest. The question should be asking yourself now is this. What is the level or the extent of compression between the security agents and these vigilante athletes that have been picked up in Imoudez state and all the rest? So I think that is where there is a disconnect because whether you like it or not, if these people, if the security athletes carry them and some other security athletes like the police, the militia and all the rest carry them, how do you not identify each other? How do you not come to a compression to each other to begin to battle some of these things? Second thing, who are, will they play by the rules? Who are the ones giving orders? Who are the commanders? Who are the soldiers and all the rest? So you begin to look at some of these things and most importantly, the government also must be careful because when you empower people with guns that do not have good intention for the people, they are bound to misuse it and they are bound to mess it up. So we must also be careful, the kind of people we empower, the kind of people we implore. If I let me tell you the truth, the Nigerian police today at the peace got to understand because the Nigerian police have forgotten or have shifted away from the normal norms of recruitment of police officers in Nigeria. You now recruit everybody to the Nigerian police and give them a hand. And that's one of the problems we are having in Nigeria today. Can you give us some clarity or exactly on what the nature of security challenges we're talking about here in Imo State is? Are we still hearing of kidnappings of assassinations of people being killed or robbed in their residence? What exactly are the most common security challenges Imo State is currently dealing with? Yeah, there's been kidnappings in Imo State, especially kidnapping. For example, I've been in Imo State since December to now, you know. In fact, they haven't passed any day in Imo State. You don't hear about one kidnapping or the other. Some happen in the most areas, some happen so many places that before even the media comes to take it off, many people will not know. And again, to tell you this, the media in Imo State is often not being enough. Many people are not even hearing about these security challenges in Imo State because the media, most of the media asking to have here are not being proactive. It's only during political exercise that you see so many media happen coming out in Imo State for one thing or the other. But most of them don't report simplifications. What happens? Because I discovered there is no compression or, you know, a sort of a between most of the media athletes in Imo State and the police. There is no cohesion and compression between the media athletes in Imo State and the government. So when there's just information, how do they pass it out? And when you understand some of this, you not think that the Imo people are more like, is neither here nor there. People don't hear exactly what happens every day in Imo State. But I believe that these things can be tackled. Okay, but we also have feelers from Imo State saying that, you know, the situation, the way it's been reported is not as it is, you know, in the media space. There's a lot of calm and peace in Imo State. I mean, these are feelers that, you know, one has been getting from the state. But moving away from that, I'd like to ask, because I've asked prior to this time, what is the role, how effective would you say the police is, or has been in carving and in fighting all of this crime and criminality in Imo State? Do you think that they are overwhelmed? No, the truth is the police in Imo State, to the best of my knowledge, they have been trying in recent times. And they remember that since the coming up of the end cast and the jailbreak in Imo State, you know, there seems to be more like discouragement from the police, especially when you talk about their website. Look at last December, this December that just passed. When did the police of stars all over Nigeria receive their color and all the way? Now, for police officers that are working in some departments, like practical things that, you know, are settled with the assessment of, you know, testing this insecurity on daily basis, 24 hours a day of every day. Do you give them any website package for all those things that day? And the answer is no. So in some of this, you begin to think that we must, in a way, you know, encourage these security officers, like Nigerian police, especially in order to begin to do more. They are human beings like me and you. And some of us traveled for X-mas, New Year. They did not go anywhere. They were in town, you know, testing and making sure that there is security in Imo State. But as I said to you today, they are trying and we must encourage them by opening me. All right. Can you also share a little bit about the political angles to it? I know you mentioned earlier that what's most important is that police carry out the investigation and they're able to arrest some of these suspects and whatnot. But, you know, is there anything you can share about the political angles, you know, if any concerning these issues? The Rocha Sokorocha, Uche Umoso, you know, who also had some issues sometime last week when it was arrested. And of course, Opus Adima, are there any political angles that need to also be addressed for peace to reign in Imo State? Well, I look at it that this whole issue of political angle, political situation, is neither here nor there. Because as far as I'm concerned, you have been a one-time governor and you're no longer a governor in the state. So I don't see the reason why there should be confusions or problems between the past governor and his governor or the potential administration. Your time is up, your time is up, there's no two ways about it. So you don't have any, even if you have any ambition, you should be in the near future. Begin to, you know, you know, you know, bridge your grassroots and nothing else. For example, Conspiracy is just only that in Nigeria, we play politics with everything. And remember that we say that when two elephants fight, it is in grasses that suffer. And that is why we are calling on the Imo State government to actually do the needful. Since they have said it, that they know people, that some people that are behind the intercourse challenges in Nigeria. Imo people are waiting patiently to hear their names. Imo people want to know who and who is their enemy. There's no two ways about it. Let me say the one thing. And let me answer this question. You were saying that the situation is not like you did before and all the rest. Yes, I agree with you. There have been a level of advancement and improvement. But as I said to you today, once it is 6 to 7 p.m. in Imo State, everywhere is deserted. Unlike before, how Imo State used to be. Everybody, if you have been to Imo State before, Imo State is a city, especially Oweri, where you go and stay and for tourism, for enjoyment and all the rest. That's why I say because it is the same as it was before in this country. But now it is no longer like that. So what is happening? People are afraid. All right. So Justice Uwegwu, we thank you for your time. Thank you for giving us some, and of course, there's much clarity on these issues. We will, of course, continue these conversations and we hope that security agents are on their feet and we'll be able to make sure Imo State is safe again. Like you also mentioned, the political angles with regards to former governor, his son-in-law, and the current governor, some of all those things would also need to be brought to the table at some point. So we can at least ensure that there is peace in Imo State and the rest of the Southeast. But thanks very much for your time and we wish you a very interesting day ahead. We're going to move away from the discussions on Imo State and move to other topics of discussion this morning. And that is mostly with the fight against corruption. In the last few weeks, you must have followed the Auditor General's report and almost daily updates with regards to it. You know, it's either there is a nine billion Naira that has been misused by the National Assembly or 3.2 billion Naira that seems to have gone missing to pay to ghost contractors in Nigerian police force. And also yesterday, 127 billion Naira, unremitted by customs and immigration in Nigeria, all by the Auditor General's report. The question is, will the Nigerian government take action? Or are these some of the stories we just read and move on from? We'll talk about it when we come back.