 Happy to have everyone here this morning to discuss what we think is a critically important topic So-called non-cognitive skills. I should open by saying that we I think all three of us and I can probably speak for the absent Bernie dislike the term non-cognitive skills as much as every other human being who uses it but because there were so many important things to actually discuss about it we chose to Let other people have that discussion about what would be a better you better term for that And we're gonna move on to other things Non-cognitive skills have gotten certainly far too little attention in the policy arena, especially in the past few decades But we're very happy to see that they're getting increased attention In discussions by teachers parents And others and we think that this is actually a great moment in time to elevate that discussion for a few reasons one is there seems to be growing recognition that current popular reforms are Falling short pretty far short of what we want them to do and there's growing discussion of how we What we can do to remedy the flaws to fill in the holes or perhaps change course in some cases And that opens up a spot for a new conversation a renewed conversation Researchers and educators are joining parents and students themselves in pushing policymakers To focus not only on the non-cognitive skills and on the sorry on the cognitive skills Which we are looking at is in particular reading math and science that have been the very heavy focus of most Education policy and practice discussions and to make non-cognitive skills A more important and perhaps equally important part of that discussion Our goal I should say really Emma's goal with a little help from me for this paper was mainly to bring together the key points from a large and growing body of research on this very important topic in Accessible manner and to do something fairly difficult to make These points accessible not only to researchers But also to policymakers and practitioners and advocates and to do so in a policy relevant manner And as such a subsidiary goal of the paper is to provide a framework For policymaking going forward and we should stress that this really this paper really does provide a framework not a detailed set of Instructions or points of what exactly policymakers should be doing So with that introduction, I'd like to turn it over to Emma to summarize key points of a pretty long paper one That was described by someone in our communications department is epic I don't think it's having written to epic papers. I could say this one's don't be scared. This one really is not epic It's totally doable After which we are going to have by then Bernie and also Kathleen Give us some key perspective on policy and practice related to NCS The full biographies or at least short biographies are in your packets. So I won't elaborate on them Emma Garcia is a resident education economist here at the Economic Policy Institute and the author of this paper She has both far too many names and far too many degrees for me to go into them now So with that I will turn it over to Emma So welcome everyone and thanks so much for joining us today This event is co-hosted by the Economic Policy Institute our education program and they broke their bolder approach to education So thanks to Elena and Christian for organizing We are very excited to release this paper today and I am really grateful For all of you who are here to to have this conversation on the importance of non-cognitive skills So as this day was coming closer I was thinking about how I could best start this conversation Around the paper and the topic with you today and I was exploring different possibilities I was thinking that I could easily take advantage of the fact that we all in here agree on the importance of non-cognitive skills More so that we might also agree on on the importance of Incorporating them in education policy debates as well Alternatively, I could leave those thoughts aside and focus on the main challenges that impede non-cognitive skills integration into our policy debates Since I don't want to be overly optimistic or too pessimistic about this I would like to bring your attention to the end of the paper and express loud my gratitude to those who Contributed and helping me to write this report First of all, I want to I want to thank Elaine for her support and also her cognitive contribution Which you will find throughout the paper especially in the policy implication section Second of all, I would like to acknowledge extremely useful guidance from Jane Quinn from the Children's Aid Society Also, I'm grateful to Robert Pianta for his comments and to Richard Rodstein for pertinent questions and also for having challenged me to come up with a list of non-cognitive skills that could be important for policy purposes You will find that that list I would list of non-cognitive skills included in the paper And to Larry Michel for his advice and for having asked me to write this paper in the first place He is the director of the education program Also, thank you note goes to Michael McCarthy for having edited our report and to our communication stuff Especially Dante who is sitting in the back and these rows So thanks. Last but not least to Kathleen and Bernie For having accepted our invitation for joining us today I'm really looking forward to hearing your comments and also to Moving our research on this topic forward So I will now take a few minutes to introduce the structure of the paper and its main contents and conclusions The paper contains the non-cognitive skills should be an explicit pillar of education policy We support this by providing a review of the research that convey the importance of non-cognitive skills We also support this by contrasting these evidence with a way current policies treat non-cognitive skills in light of this we will Try to suggest some ideas or recommendations on what policy could do in order to incorporate NCS into the Situation and activities From reviewing research on non-cognitive skills. We learned to main things The first is why non-cognitive skills matter and very shortly I'll say that they matter because they matter they matter because they represent Important attributes that we value in people They also matter because they correlate with other things that we value as Academic performance earning civic participation and other outcomes Children will experience as adults Second we learned how non-cognitive skills are generated where they come from and We looked in the paper at the importance of the children's environment Captured by their social class or socio-economic status. We also look at the importance of teacher characteristics school characteristics, school climate, community schools, health clinics and a number of factors We also Looked at the importance of simultaneous effects the Interdependence between cognitive and non-cognitive skills and this supports the idea And I am borrowing this or paraphrasing Olga who is sitting in the back of our room That to support the idea that we might not be able to fully boost cognitive skills unless we pay attention to non-cognitive skills Or alternatively that by focusing on non-cognitive skills We might actually get to improve cognitive performance as well. So thanks Olga In the paper you will find a little review of Researcher conducted by a number of scholars including Hekman and his co-authors Angela Doogworth Dwarf Lag, Anthony Braick, Henry Levine and Chonkov, Jack Chonkov, for example, two sides of you In short Research affirms that non-cognitive skills matter greatly and they can be nurtured in schools That's our point and our contention is that they should be nurtured in school and education policy should take some action Then the question becomes what needs to be done and how and we provide a number of recommendations in our policy implications section and The idea is how to help policy makers to make Non-cognitive skills a core component of K to 12 policies Where recommendations are I'll cite I'll summarize them in five points. The first one to broaden accountability policies test based accountability is not enough it will leave the development of non-cognitive skills behind and It might actually be Misleading for the development of cognitive skills as I suggested earlier Second we need to rethink our disciplinary policies in school Some can indeed be at odds with the goal of nurturing non-cognitive skills or harming them when feasible we Should prefer support and prevention rather than sanctioning Third we recommend to learn from and adapt policies and practices that have been successful in other Non-traditional education settings including early childhood education after school activities or special education Fourth we suggest a look to districts that are piloting non-cognitive skills related Strategies and also to state level and federal level policies that support such strategies And finally to ensure that policy is informed by those closest to the education system including teachers, parents and students But also that other key actors including foundations, researchers and all the institutions that you represent here today Play an appropriately balanced role The policy implications section also includes some advice and some caution for both policy makers and researchers indeed They or we Can potentially contribute to better education policies in multiple ways First we need improved definitions of non-cognitive skills We need improved metric systems that are more valid and more reliable The measurement part is a little behind schedule on this and we really need that evidence in order to keep Understanding why certain non-cognitive skills are important what roles they play etc For the research on non-cognitive skills can boast our knowledge on how education processes work and Interventions work as well, and it's important to know how incentives behavior and traditional education inputs Interact and determine children's learning and performance In the current context of debates about how to shape education reforms are renewed focus on non-cognitive skills Could provide an opportune chance to enact a more effective education strategy overall I hope you will enjoy reading the paper Bernie Kathleen I'm looking forward to hearing your comments and also the audiences and To contributing to move the debate around non-cognitive skills and their roles in policy and research forward, so thank you and Congratulations Bernie on what must be possibly the best timing that's ever happened I don't want to know how bad it was for you to get here While I let you catch your breath. I want to kind of highlight one point that Emma made. I know many of them will get highlighted Oh, yeah, you get mic'd up. Sorry By our panelists and also by the audience One sort of finding or something that Emma and I discussed a lot as we were going through the paper that we thought was interesting was How well? What she's called I think we turn non-traditional or outside kind of the regular realm of K-12 education policy Several education fields have really dived deep for quite a while into the importance of NCS and done a fantastic job Early childhood really has put a whole child non-cognitive skills play creativity Really at the center really has made it core To policy and practice for a very long time and there's loads of research loads of practice metrics all kinds of things At the entire after school and summer field, I think to a large extent the same has long recognized the importance of not just teaching students basic skills But also engaging students and bringing out unique talents and having after school be a time for this and similarly Oddly enough, I think special education sort of perhaps naturally with its focus on understanding the unique needs and strengths of each child and making sure to Support those and teach to them Also has really been a pioneer or a leader in this effort and so one kind of hopeful thing that we saw was that Kind of throughout the education field. There are so many lessons to be learned and practices to be adapted You know and great knowledge there So we felt like that was one very hopeful thing that we saw in the paper But with that speaking of maybe less hopeful things I'm gonna in a moment turn it over to Bernie To discuss the the a lot of links between current disciplinary policies and practices and issues with non-cognitive skills again a Her full bio her real full bio is way too long for me to say and her shorter full bio Is in your packets, but Bernie bond Edith Burnett bond is the director of programs at the Albert Shanker Institute Where she works on a range of projects related to educational excellence and equity Unions as advocates for quality and the support of democracy and democratic institutions in the US and abroad So she has a relatively on you know, her job is not that important Previously she served as assistant director of AFT's educational issues department She was also formerly director of research and publications for the AFL CIO's international affairs department and also served on the 1992 Clinton transition team at the US information agency and with that I will turn it over to Bernie to talk about discipline NCS and whatever else she would like to tell us Thank you for inviting me sorry, I'm late Very interesting paper. I Was reminded while I was reading it about some of the articles that Al Shanker wrote In which he cautioned about expectation that schools could do everything that society Did not do for children and that to the extent that this would pose a distraction from the core mission of schools which is to make sure that kids have the academic foundations that they're going to need To succeed in life That those things are problematic when we turn to schools on the other hand he also was very interested in the role of psychology and motivation in terms of achievement and There has been a lot of Research done as you were saying in early childhood education the the overlap between cognitive and non-cognitive Skills is more Recognized and evident but they overlap and interact in really very many interesting ways In a lot of ways what we what we define as cognitive and non-cognitive is sort of it's an artificial construct and there are many things that You could say that when they when they interact it's hard to determine which is which As I said in early childhood, we know for example that that play is Necessary for the cementing of new knowledge it gives the kids an opportunity to use words to use concepts to explore And a lot of instruction in the academic field To the uninitiated observer would actually look like play and unless you you know Realize exactly how the content and the guidance that teachers Have and in making sure that there is a lot of background knowledge that's being learned you wouldn't necessarily know that There's also a lot of research in secondary in terms of secondary schools There's some interesting work by David Yeager at UT Austin where he has found that a Teacher's writing a note saying that they are Expecting high Things, you know good you have high expectations for you. That's why I'm giving you these comments and therefore You know, this is your feedback And that's the experimental group the control group just got a note saying this is your feedback Especially for African-American students the difference was Highly significant it was about 17% of the of the students in the control group took the feedback and revised their papers About 87% did in the experimental group We also know that there's Research showing that the development of cognitive skills are related to strengthening of non-cognitive outcomes For example, I'm sure non-cognitive Cognitive skills are related to non-cognitive outcomes. There was a research by Bornstein That talks about the development of language competencies in early childhood keeping behavioral adjustments at bay and the paper makes a contribution to a discussion about the extent to which Interactions and and competencies in other areas that are not perceived as academic are really related to academic behavior Discipline we've also found that there is a lot of Implicit bias that is unconsciously Projected at students and that they being inhabitants of the society also pick up And in a similar fashion there has been There've been experiments as to the way that young black men for example in high schools are approached in the hallway if they are doing something that is You know questionable that if they are approached as As a child that they will behave And react much differently than if they are Approached in a way that they perceive themselves their manhood being threatened And it makes a great difference. There's a lot of programs that are now being implemented in reaction to the discriminatory Intentionally and non-intentionally application of harsh disciplinary Programs and We do know that some of the schools that have adopted Policies that are not only aimed at discipline but at making the schools serve more as communities Have seen Corresponding academic games So Thank you so much birdie and actually I don't Kathleen may in fact speak to a little bit of what you talked about And I hope we'll have time in the discussion to delve into this a bit more Because disciplinary policies were One of the areas that we focused on both because we felt like a lot of Current disciplinary policies stand in the way of good nurturing not only of nurturing NCS But actually as as Emma pointed out in some cases are clearly causing harm are really making the development of NCS More difficult or impossible. So I think we will get to that. But with that I would like to turn it over to Kathleen Kathleen Melville teaches ninth grade students at the workshop school, which is a project-based public high school in Philadelphia She's taught English Spanish and drama in Philly and Guatemala City, which has got to be a fairly unusual combination She is a national board certified teacher and a co-founder of Teachers lead Philly and also a member of the CTQ Collaboratory which I promised I would not forget She sent me to short an intro so you should feel free to Google her and look her up With that I will turn it over to Kathleen to talk about Google what happens in schools that works and doesn't work And what we could do better. Sure. Yeah So I'd like to start by elaborating just a little bit on the school that I'm coming from Because it's a pretty unique place the workshop school in Philadelphia, I'm new there and the school is fairly new and it was really in some ways It was really founded on the idea that until we address Non-cognitive skills. We can't hope to make any progress with cognitive skills. It was founded by teachers Who worked in a in a really really difficult school in West Philadelphia West Philadelphia high school? and Just found that they weren't making a lot of progress with students because they were so completely Disengaged from school school had broken so many promises to them school was a place that they hated And so these three teachers got together and said what if we could create a place that really engaged students that really valued them as human beings and that tried to create a community that sought the best in everybody who came in and it's a really Messy process to try to do that especially given the the policy constraints in education right now But it's really worth it, and I really love being there I really love my colleagues, and I think for the most part they might not tell you this But I think my students really love being there too So it's a pretty special place and the way that it looks is I have a group of 15 students that I work with All morning for about three and a half hours. We work on projects together and We start every morning with a circle and we end every day with a circle So it's we kind of draw on restorative practices and really getting to know each other as people Understanding that what's going on in students lives really really informs their behavior and what they're gonna be able to do in school So Recently what that's looked like and I recently I wrote a post about this for teaching tolerance So if you want to know a little bit more about what we've been doing There's a post there about it, but we have been talking about Ferguson. We've been looking at the media And and the stereotypes of young people of color In the media and looking at ways that we can produce media. That's that's more representative of of us So that's been really great And reading the paper Emma's paper. I was really happy to see Attention being paid to non-cognitive skills. I think it's it's so important and I think most teachers if They're given the freedom want to focus on non-cognitive skills That's why most of us get into teaching is because we want to connect with students And we want to build relationships with students and we want to see them reach their potential which really can't happen if you're not if you don't feel good about yourself if you don't feel connected to other people if you Don't feel valued as a human being and So so I'm really happy to see the paper come out and I wanted to thank you for the work that you've done and Wanted to talk a little bit about some of the obstacles that I feel like teachers face in and trying to address non-cognitive skills and also Give a couple Suggestions or recommendations for folks like you who are here in the halls of power while I'm in the halls of my classroom my school so Some of the some of the obstacles that that I and my colleagues and my students face Overtesting is one of them My students take so many tests and are so Overtested and I think that there's a way in which that shifts policy Because there's this incredible emphasis on reading and math and science Like Elaine said, but there's also a way in which that really shifts what the experience of school is like for kids Kids have come to associate my kids have come to associate school with a place that makes you feel bad about what you don't know and There's there's real trauma involved in that and I often think of my work with my students as As going in every day to try to undo that trauma and to make them feel like school is a place where you can be appreciated And where you can do good work that matters And so a less testing would be a huge step in the right direction I feel like for for developing non-cognitive skills the less testing that I have to do with my kids the more time I can spend with them on circle getting to know each other and and sort of healing from a lot of the things That have happened in their lives both in school and outside of school There's some really great Research happening right now actually coming out of Philadelphia on ACE's adverse childhood experiences We're lucky enough in Philly to have a whole newspaper that's devoted to our to our schools It's called the Philadelphia public school notebook And they just their December issue is all about behavioral health and some of the research in Philly coming out about adverse childhood experiences and While it the research itself is is kind of devastating I'm really heartened to see the research happening because we're starting to see really clear connections between adverse childhood Experiences trauma basically that kids go through and I can say a hundred percent of my students have have faced trauma in their in their Childhoods and are continuing to face trauma on a daily basis, you know, whether it's parents in prison Whether it's proximity to violence whether it's abuse or neglect You know, they face those things every day and then what that it puts them at risk for for chronic illnesses It puts them at risk for you know, all kinds of difficulties in the social and academic arenas And you know, I like to see school as a place where we can sort of come together and work on Healing some of those things and moving forwards from some of those things But we're as teachers were rarely ever granted that the time or the resources are just sort of the purpose the sense of purpose to do that So I'm lucky to be in the school that I'm in where we are sort of given that latitude to address those things and encouraged to address those things but most teachers I think are not and are sort of constantly fighting to try to Connect with have the time and the the space to connect with their students around those things so yeah over testing underfunding is a Major major issue in Philadelphia and really I think across Pennsylvania and in across the country, you know in Philly we've Our budget has been slashed left and right and we've lost counselors and nurses and a lot of the The connective tissue that makes schools safe places and healthy places You know, we're skin and bones and that means that teachers are worn out And and kids are worn out and there are just so many fewer adults for for children to have Meaningful relationships with and to develop those those positive skills social and emotional skills And also just I mean there's so many ways that that takes a toll. I mean there's fewer people to help Act as liaisons to bring in some of the important services that do exist in the community We we have great people doing great work in Philly But unless there's somebody with at least a spare hour in the week who can say I know Five kids who could really benefit from this program. Let me help you connect them Then it doesn't happen. It doesn't happen and schools are just like these sort of shells with Prescribed curricula and testing happening, but none of the the rich and vibrant relationships that that make Make developing non-cognitive skills possible So over testing underfunding and then also the disciplinary policies and I know that You know, there's not very many people championing Zero tolerance policies anymore People don't you know enough research has come out to show why that is You know so disastrous especially for our young men of color and But there's still a really strong legacy in our schools and in our classrooms of that sort of cultural shift that happened in the in the 90s and And so even if there aren't sort of policy level folks talking about it The reality in schools is that you know There are a lot of schools in Philadelphia that are paying for private security guards instead of teachers Paying for private security guards instead of counselors. I see it especially in Charter schools that have a have a little bit more latitude with their their budgets and are using their budgets to hire basically school cops You know and and that's where I see a lot of trauma that's actually happening in schools Where there are encounters between police officers and students Usually poor students of color that are really traumatizing and where kids are getting sort of funneled into the school to prison pipeline And so when that's the the emphasis It really makes it difficult to create a climate and a culture where we're where we're nurturing non-cognitive skills I guess my so my three recommendations have to do with One sort of being while I think that non-cognitive skills are really really important to be wary of Curricula behaviorist curricula that Claim to make improvements in students behavior another thing that I see mostly in charter schools again is these kinds of These kinds of curricula that are only ever employed in poor communities of color Where it's sort of about you know Well, what we can do is we what what kids are missing is is grit and persistence And so we're gonna train them We're gonna mandate and measure and make sure that our kids are trying hard all the time that they're tracking teachers eyeballs And we're gonna show them really how to be How to be like white people and I think it's really really problematic Even though it sort of can make a lot of claims to You know improvements in behavior, but I think a lot of them are undergirded by these kinds of punitive disciplinary policies You know track your teachers eyeballs or else And that they're not actually building Addressing sort of some of the root causes of students misbehavior Or really building the kinds of communities where good things can happen And so I didn't see any reference to that kind of thing in your paper Which I was really glad to see you know not sort of like you know Here's a prescribed curriculum that all teachers can use to make sure students are Saying only positive things, you know or you know, I think we want to You know engenders in students like the ability to be really aware of of the causes for you know for the kinds of You know the violence and the trauma that's happening in communities and Let's see So yeah being a wary of prescribed curricula and also because I think that they really focus a lot on on sort of like a human capital model of like how can we get You know, how can we get to the point where we can measure, you know for an individual child? You know what their level of of non-cognitive skills that are and so I guess that sort of brings me to the other point of sort of like When we have that that human capital model and that emphasis on measurement a lot of times what that leads to is Mandates around okay, we must have all children at this level of Non-cognitive skills within the next ten years, you know And I think there was a really clear warning in the paper about you know We've seen how that worked with no child left behind, you know setting these You putting all of this emphasis on measurement and setting pretty unrealistic targets about what we can do You know oftentimes we we figure out a way to measure something and then the immediate consequences now Let's set a standard and a bar and then yell at anybody who can't get there And so, you know, I think it's important to be really wary of that and to learn from what happened with no child Left behind and instead of just setting high bars. I mean always it's always important to set high expectations always like no one would Saying we shouldn't do that But you know to really focus on okay What are the conditions that need to be created for for us to make progress in this area, you know So instead of just let's develop a really precise, you know reliable way to measure these things I know that's important But what can we do as researchers to really to really define clearly? What are the conditions that teachers and students need in order to be successful in this area? So, you know, and that's that's kind of this idea of reciprocal accountability Not just how can we set the bar and then hold you to it? But how what can we ask of our our policymakers and of the people who are funding education? What can we ask of them to say these are the conditions we need in order to make a difference for students? We need You know at least 15 minutes of recess a day. We need We need to make sure we have systems in place so that every child can have a meaningful relationship with at least one adult in school And that doesn't happen when the you know, the teacher to student ratio is 1 to 150 You know, what are the concrete conditions that we need to see in school and what would it cost? Because I think there's always the sense that okay We're gonna set the bar really really high and we've done our part by setting the bar high What without without looking at what is it really costs to get there? Or what systems need to be in place to get there? What are our priorities need to be if we want to get there? And how do we build that instead of that human capital? How do we build that social capital? How do we look at school climate and school culture and school communities? And Then my last piece is sort of like I think the the best way to push policy in that direction It is by incorporating and elevating more teacher and student voices Because like I said, this is what this is the direction that teachers want to go in And so how can we elevate? those stories From from teachers classrooms from students most teachers are Hungering to be advocates for their students And so, you know, and it's it's very very rare to see teachers on sort of the front lines and These policy discussions. I mean that's something and that's something that my Organization and Philly teachers lead Philly strives to do And so and I'm really thankful to have been invited because I think that shows a lot in terms of you know What BBA and EPI are doing around, you know, trying to get teachers voices a little bit higher up in the in the policy discussion Because I think that that that's you know, one of the places where it can come from and You know when I think about my school and the type of school that we run, you know Teachers really want to work at my school parents and families really want to send their kids to a school that cares about About children's social emotional skills and kids really want to be there, you know So what where's the disconnect and how can we help to sort of close that disconnect by putting families and teachers and students voices? first so obviously this is why we ask awesome teachers to be on our panel so makes everybody more informed and more happy I actually think I'll end this part of it by saying I think Kathleen showed a very interesting dichotomy that's going on right now We're sort of policy and practice are disconnecting in two odd ways One of them is that we know a ton about things that don't work with respect to accountability and discipline policies that are very counterproductive and yet We're way behind on that because policy is sort of lagging like policy is kind of the tail end of that tail Where it's still happening even though we know that it works really badly and at the same time We're kind of ahead in the other way policy is already as I think Emma worried. I worried Kathleen worried birdie worried Exactly as Kathleen said that once we've you know We if we could just figure out any metric for this the first thing we're going to do is jump on it and like set lots And lots and lots of standards which is way ahead of where we ought to be We need to first take 10 steps back and think and really think oh my god What did we do over the last 20 years that really made a mess when it came to doing that with other sets of skills? How can we avoid repeating that and that's something we need to think about so with the theme of non cognitive skills one of the things we learn from writing this paper is that this is Absolutely the longest time that anybody can sit still and listen to even very riveting people talk about a critically important topic So we're going to break it up for five or ten minutes. We're going to hand out a survey to all of you And we should have warned you to bring pens ahead of time And the survey is important to us for two reasons both long-term and immediate in the long term It's important because to us EPI and BBA This is the beginning of a long conversation Research advocacy and policy work that we want to do around NCS and we want you to help inform us Just as we want voices like Bernie's and Kathleen's to inform what we do going forward More immediately at the end of the survey as a sort of reward for you There is a space if you've got a question to pose to a particular Panelist to the panel as a whole or to your fellow audience members Please put it in there and we will incorporate it into the Q&A Feel free to use this time to stand up stretch your legs have research have coffee have a bagel And we'll reconvene in five to ten minutes. Thank you for discussion in Q&A Actually had the attention of researchers for forever. I mean this is not it's not like we haven't known Societally or as human beings that being human beings doesn't you know matters? and that these kind of Factors these aspects of being fully developed people matter You know we tried to capture as much as we could with a very heavy focus here on Capturing key points of research. So we should say this paper is very light on the policy end on the practical end And to be very frank, I mean you should always be honest about this This is kind of our opening salvo into this area so there's a lot of great work going on in this area that we're not even aware of yet and a really big part of a Big reason to have these kind of conversations is so that there's an opportunity to sort of bring that work together Someone just brought to my attention. For example fantastic work. That's been going on that if anything has a footnote In this paper if that for sure, there's fantastic work by foundations We tried to highlight several of those that we know of that have been doing good work in this area fairly consistently for a while a couple challenges that we face one is that a lot of work in this area as we've discussed kind of on the panel has been squelched in recent years has been overwhelmed by some big foundations and by Practices and policies that run counter to the nurturing and the elevating events. Yes And part of it is just maybe us not knowing about things that are going on It's a big field and so apologies in advance and if you are one of those people whose great work is not in here Or not in here as much as you think it should be This is when you'll have a chance to talk about it. And that's one of the reasons to have this panel And I just also want to say a part of Emma's and my goal going forward is to have this be the first of several Conversations on this topic and our hope is to bring in people with much more knowledge about it Who've been engaged in this field for a very long time who can inform this work because the goal is to kind of bring all This together as much as we can and at the end of this a Discussion I'll end by talking about it. You know at least one more piece of it That's out right now that we should be aware of I want to start by posing a couple of questions of my own To the panelists and they'll be short and then we're going to open up for discussion The first one is an issue that I think really didn't come up in the paper But that has come up recently both in education policy writ large and specifically with respect to NCS And that is the role of the common core state standards And specifically this is the question I want to pose to the panelists I think proponents of the common core and I think this discussion has become Ridiculously polarized. I mean who would have thought that a set of Standards for kids could become as polarizing as like I don't know abortion I mean it really is just you know, you know, they're the worst thing that ever happened They will kill off children and implant in in their brains or they're the best thing ever They will solve every problem we've ever created. I mean these are clearly insane arguments, but I Think proponents of the standards will say that what they do offer us is a chance to refocus on non-cognitive skills To give schools the chance to focus at least on some sets of non-cognitive skills And and some opponents I think Argue it right now that actually because Testing has become a first focus of the common core standards for so many districts and states and possibly even higher stakes and higher Emphasis that it may actually make it ironically harder than it is even now to focus on NCS And so I'm curious from the panelists to see if you have any thoughts on that um, I I Agree with those who say that the proper implementation of the common core is Actually even I think probably calls for attention to some of the the non-cognitive skills that we know are very much related to academic Achievement, but it's it's also true for me that I was thinking about Gandhi's reply when somebody asked him what he thought about British civilization where he thought it would be a good idea and Implementation of the common core is not Is not Anywhere near what it needs to be before testing Would come into play, which is the sole focus of a lot of the policy around this There's no there's no curriculum to go with it. There's no quality materials. There's no You know, there's no guarantee that the tests would be aligned with anything that's being taught in particular in the classroom There has been some training of teachers around the expectations of the common core, but not a whole hell of a lot And they're rolling out the tests very soon in a lot of places There's been, you know pushback and and a delay for having them count but they still doesn't solve the problem of lack of resources attention and focus on implementation and These being a tool to build the kind of education that we want students to have Rather than a way to measure Whether they have attained it Yeah I agree and I'm not I'm not one of these people who takes aside really on common core because I mostly think of it as a discussion that's going on up here and Teachers all of the teachers I know are just doing what they know how to do best to engage kids and it really doesn't matter They're they're nice. They're fine But it's it doesn't it doesn't change the way that I do my job and all of the best teachers I know it's not changing the way that they do their job either so Yeah, I mean the way that we the way that I use the standards is you know We have to sort of it's a it's totally a CYA kind of thing like You know we we do the work with kids that we think is going to be Meaningful and engaging and then we say and these are the standards that we hit so I mean if that's gonna I mean that's working for us so far and You know, we're getting to do some really great work with kids So as I guess there's you know in the sense that standards are more Flexible than say a prescribed curriculum You know, they're they're useful in that regard that You know As long as I'm addressing the standards I can kind of do the work that I want to do with my kids That's been that's been pretty good So the last question I'll ask you to before we open up to audience questions is If you had five minutes to sit with secretary Duncan And you had let's say one point that you want to make or or convey to him about NCS What would that point be? I'll leave Emma for last Okay, I think that I Would want to talk to so I have this really big crush not on secretary Duncan The education system in Finland and this is also can be like a really divisive topic I think But I I really think That in Finland they've taken things really seriously in terms of Building an education system that that reflects the kind of society that we want to have Building an education system that is meant to educate for democracy And so I would I would talk to secretary Duncan a lot about that I think they have a lot to teach us about noncognitive skills You know kids spend A ton of time playing and kids spend a ton of time working together And building relationships with their teachers And so that's probably what I would want to talk to him about is how could we sort of shift in that direction? Actually done this before I guess I would Suggest to him that he stopped listening to economists in terms of what I'm fighting words in this office In terms of what corporations Do and don't do well and what corporate reform should be like okay, but instead instead Talk to researchers who actually look at businesses and business practice business school researchers for example Who would tell you that a lot of the things that are being pushed have failed time and time again in the corporate world and are not? respected as policy There One of the one of the prime things that most people in business will tell you is that one of the most successful models is Corporations that respect workers treat them well and have a sense of Community and contribution to the the goals of the company and That is not evident in a lot of again the policies that are being pushed right now Which is to is to think about it from the bottom up rather than the top down Basically told you this woman would we've learned just by looking at Substantial research going on over the decades some by economists But not only by economists On on this this topic that we are discussing about today So that would be basically one minute and then I guess as a researcher I would just pose to him Questions and a bit of questions and instead of perhaps thinking Back and asking him why we are at this point and why we have not set up the right conditions not given teachers Voices or roles in in the debate I would just Try to ask him how to move this forward and how to improve the system for what And another thing I'm very curious when I read Policy decisions and discussions is how those end up being independent pieces of a proposal So I would really try to get from him some Information on how to please or to glue those independent pieces together how to really make policy a comprehensive strategy that focuses on children's full development or children's learning or Future so I see policies as independent agents that come up and answer some specific minor needs I would try to Ask him how to how to improve that and perhaps change that so that policy singular work So I'm gonna adapt a couple of questions from all of you one of which I should have brought up a long time ago So apologies and that is can we talk more about what are some essential non-cognitive skills? What are the ones that we're talking about here? and this is something that We discussed in the paper about what have other researchers called them. What do we call them? How do we define them and all that so what I might do is ask each of our panelists To name one or two and I want to be clear here. We're talking about non-cognitive skills in the education context So we want to talk about ones both that are relevant to schools and the school context And that we know or research tells us can and should be nurtured in that context So maybe I'll mix it up and start with Bernie to maybe nominate a couple of the ones that she might have in mind One of the central ones would be persistence There is for example some richer research showing that the the economic outcomes for high school graduates versus High schoolers who took the GED are quite different even when when you control for For for IQ and for and for performance level academic performance level and It seems that the kids who were able to actually stick it out in school and graduate have something Extra that allows them to to perform better in economic arena and in terms of good jobs in terms of further education that that There is measurable difference in the income levels going forward between these two groups So it's a persistence would be a huge huge one. Excellent If I could disagree with you Bernie That's that's one one the the persistent the research around persistence in the way that it's kind of trickled into education policy really bothers me sometimes Because I find so, you know Angela Duckworth at University of Pennsylvania has done a lot of work on on grit and how that Kids who have grit and now even teachers who have grit what they're able to do And the reason it the way it plays out bothers me. Well, first of all, let me say that I see grit in my students all the time and I I Admire it and I think it's incredible most of a lot of my students are a lot grittier than I am And but that's because they have to go through tremendous hardship every day and Instead of saying so basically my perspective is instead of saying We need you to be more gritty to get through this this This school system that basically tries to rob you of your humanity Why don't we try to make the school system a little bit easier to get through? and So I guess there was a there was a reason I didn't say grit because I do agree with you on the sort of the use of that word But I mean persistence is again, it's a noncognitive skill But it's also something that can be nurtured not in saying you should have more of it but in helping students to see the point of What they're doing helping Them have dreams and aspirations that would allow them to to keep going even when it gets tough That it's more complex than just saying it's Saying grit makes it seem like it's something innate, you know, some some kids are hearty and some are not but you know, but but the persistence is something that is Nurtured in in some kids from birth and and some kids not and those kids who need extra support Should be able to receive it as they make their way through school Yeah, I agree and I I just I just get nervous when I hear it talked about especially in policy circles because of the way it ends up trickling trickling down and And and so I would I would agree that there there are certain things that allow kids to be more persistent, right? those are things like being really engaged with the work that they're doing seeing you know having mentors who have been Persistent and have reached goals. So I would focus on those those condition again the conditions conditions Yeah, allow kids to be persistent because when we just say persistence, then it becomes an individual measurable trait that we're trying to promote in individual children and instead of You know look again looking at the conditions That that that allow kids to be kids want to be persistent They want to try hard and they they want to feel good about that But when we see it as sort of like we have this real deficit of persistence in our children and always when we're talking about that We're talking about We're talking about poor children and children and children of color and so when we think about it from sort of like we have a deficit of persistence, what can we do to to increase persistence? I just think that that model always leads to Outcomes that are not really aligned with what we're we're trying to do I want to make two really quick comments on this one and then go to Emma One is I really want to thank both of you because I think this is the kind of conversation that needs to be Have before we do stupid stuff with this set of metrics I want to point out. There's a couple of Blog commentaries in your packets related, you know various things that we've written But I want to give a shout out to one that Kathleen wrote with a tiny bit of input from me in which one of her lines That was exactly this really caught me and that was my students are so unbelievably gritty already the last thing that they need Is more grit and I thought about my kids who could use some grit and so I think she is spot-on on that one So I think these you know these are exactly the things we need to think about and I think we also need to be very careful and I think you both did a Great job of pointing it out not to be looking at this from a deficit perspective One of the other things that non-cognitive skills discussions lets us do is look at the huge Strengths of some of the kids who we are always thinking about as having deficits for example My kids who will be thought of as hugely strong in the academic world Completely lack grit because what opportunity have they had to survive anything difficult none? They had a dog die who was 13 and a half years old I mean really like they just don't you know they can get a lot of grit So I think let's make sure that as we have this conversation We also balance it with what can we learn from kids who've actually learned to be gritty who've learned to be persistent Who've done all kinds of things? How do we build on everyone's strengths better instead of taking a deficit perspective of everything and with that we talked Is that this conversation that Bernie and Kathleen just had kind of mimics Multiple conversations that Elaine and I have had ourselves about which skills to include and which not to include in our list You will find the list on page seven and it builds on kind of combining some skills that researchers had Suggested could be called or be incorporated in the non-cognitive But it's also very important to think deeper in what they said because they both Mentioned different aspects that have to do with the importance of coming up not just with the list but with the right definition for all these Non-cognitive skills that are going to be relevant for education purposes. So we are not talking about personalities We are not talking about deficit We might want to talk about non-cognitive skills that will help students to succeed in school That school teachers mostly will have a chance to contribute to and most importantly to look at them from a developmental perspective So it's not just your level of Persistence persistence is in our list great is not But look at them from these improvements or Development it's going to be Yeah, improvements throughout school years or they rise and so on not from a punishment deficit approach I'll mention one other one So for example creativity I think is there and we talk about this and I think this important because again This is a conversation Emma and I had and part of what we thought this brought out was a lesson for cognitive skills as well And that is part of the problem that we're having with assessments with measurements with a so-called Accountability which I don't really think are even really accountability measures Is we also are not recognizing normal healthy whatever you want to call it variation, right? So part of our problem is that and we know again it's something that common sense tells us We don't even need research to tell us this We're not all going to be math geniuses and we're not all going to be great writers And we're also not all going to be the most creative human beings in the world So really what are we trying to do with schools part of it? Is we want to make sure that kids have come out with have the chance to develop a baseline Sufficient amount of basic stuff they need to thrive in school and life and beyond that There's tons of variation that's healthy and natural and good because we We do not want to produce a nation of physicists or of algebra geniuses or only of artists But we want to you know kind of help kids Develop their strengths and do what they're doing so part of the discussion We have in the paper that I really hope will carry over into the cognitive realm is to talk about normal variation And to be very cautious as we do metrics and all that about what you know And you talked about you talked about we've got we've hit this dangerous spot of all kids should be proficient in something Do we really think that all kids should be proficient at calculus? Do we really think that all kids should be the best writers? See, so I think these are again discussions. We should be exploring I want to end the official discussion, but we certainly I want to ask one question here And if we have time I'll grab one from the audience Here's what one of you asked what's the proper balance that school should have in developing or nurturing NCS versus cognitive skills and should we even be thinking about it that way? Which I think is also important and I'll go backwards this way. Let's let's start with We We mentioned in the paper some different strategies that have been found to promote both types of skill at the same time so by Promoting some non-cognitive skills. You will be able to help kids We got different example this morning as well on this you will be able to promote more confidence and more confidence will lead to Better performance in calculus and algebra and writing and English and everything so it's it's These balances is not half and half or three quarters and one quarter is is to really understand how these things work together and then to reinforce and nurture learning and development I I guess I would go back to what I started with it That it's important always to keep in sight the academic purposes of school But with with that said If you cannot it's Kathleen saying you can't really Teach kids unless the conditions are there for them to receive the learning So if they are Hungry they're not going to be able to learn and we provide food programs so that they can eat it you know if they Need nurturance Which all children do? and some including my own need more than others You you know you take the steps that are needed to provide what the child needs the academic goal Should not fall off the table should always be kept in sight I don't see this as a contradiction I agree and I think that it's important to see it sort of the way that That Bernie said like as these are kind of constructs in some ways and ways to divide things But I think in really really great classrooms and in really really great teaching you don't see very much of a divide It's not like now. We're gonna take some time to work on our non-cognitive skills You know that it's it's embedded in the fabric of the of the classroom You know that students are doing work that's relevant to them and to each other and to their community and and so all of those skills like Collaboration and you know reaching out for support and building relationships All of those are sort of embedded in that though in the work that they're doing So I want to open it up to see if anyone here has a burning question or contribution Before we before we wrap up, but we'll have a chance to you know talk. Yes. Yes. Yes. Go ahead, please And I encourage people to go to our website because there's a lot of stuff on it on this issue I do think from our experience that even using the adjective not cognitive Because the reality is We don't want kids to know mystery We would say how do you critically think about nothing? How basically these are the key learning skills that kids need To really learn well and to be engaged in their own learning And I think sometimes if you use the non-cognitive I know where you're coming from But I think it suggests a reputation that isn't real and is actually damaging So, you know, I would encourage you not to that's why we don't use it in our You know our members are from the world through the education world And they're just saying we need this in workers we need this in citizens we need this in people functional And you know the way the world is going now there's so much information people need to be constantly thinking and learning And these are the key learning skills so I really think we need to stop suggesting that they're you know adding that non-cognitive to it We agree with you by the way as we said that was one that we decided not to tackle immediately But we hope to delve into further as we go One last one and then we'll wrap up Amy? Can you introduce yourself real quick? Amy, one is sort of like in the kind of a state The return on investment in terms of being able to teach the non-cognitive skills Which actually allows for more instructional minutes which kind of takes to a state I want to teach a state where if the students are able to work collaboratively And spend more time engaged in instruction Then there's less time to be distracted from the discipline and things like that And the other is the whole system in which the education system is founded which is competitive And they the therapy has a great profile Someone has to fail this whole aspect of the competition in the school system With the limited resources that that has to be addressed in addition to the desire to have it Other people want to do it and but not being able to But the whole system is competitive So thank you both I think as these two points illustrated this is an enormous topic that needs and will have Will continue to have a lot more attention There's only so much of it that we can cover in a paper in an hour and a half We kind of gave it our best shot as an opening salvo There's tons out there Please do look at all the footnotes and look at all the resources And discuss with your fellow audience members Because a lot of you here in this room who didn't talk also have lots to contribute I do want to give a shout out in particular speaking of great resources to New America Which put out a fantastic paper just this week that's actually sort of complimentary to ours in a way It's sort of light, you know, lighter summary of the lighter research A lot delves into a lot more detail which they're very strong on What's going on in schools and districts and states And what we can do, what is being done to move policy and practice in the right direction here And I suspect we'll raise some questions along the lines of what Bernie and Kathleen raised As to whether some of this might already be kind of going into dangerous territory And what we need to do to be careful as researchers, advocates, and policymakers going forward Thank you again so much. We really hope to see you at future events And thank you so much for your contribution and helping us think as we go forward