 Hi, my name is Mark Fontaine and welcome back to our brand new episode of the service design show. Now, wouldn't that be great if instead of having to convince the stakeholders and clients around you of the business benefits that design brings that the same clients and stakeholders would be lining up to work with you that instead of having to work on small and incremental projects, you would be able to take on meaningful work that has a significant impact on the organization and its customers. Well, I hate to break it to you, but most business leaders don't get or really care about design. And when you consider the background, you can't blame them. They just speak a different language and have a different mindset. So a lot of service design professionals are struggling. They struggle to make themselves heard. They struggle to connect with key decision makers. They struggle to get the resources they need. This struggle is holding them back unnecessarily. And eventually, they are missing out on opportunities to make a meaningful impact on the company and its customers. I said that a lot of service design professionals struggle, but not all of them, because some have mastered the skill of telling a story that resonates with business leaders without losing the soul of design. Sure, once you know what you're doing, crafting the story isn't hard. But I'll admit, getting started with this story can be very challenging at first. So to give service design professionals a head start in building a clear and compelling story that resonates with business leaders, I've created a training program. The program is called Selling Service Design with Confidence. And it guides you through the entire process step by step so that the next time you find yourself in a conversation about the business impact of design, you'll know exactly what to say, when to say it, how to say it, and do it with confidence. In this episode, you'll hear the stories of six service design professionals who have been able to successfully complete the program. This year, how they were able to overcome some of the biggest challenges they faced when trying to sell service design and which impact this has had on their careers. If you want to learn more about the program, head over to servicedesignshow.com slash Confidence. There is a very limited number of seats available in the cohort. So if you want to increase your chance of securing a spot, make sure to send in your application sooner than later. For all the information and instructions on how to apply and the dates at which a new cohort starts, head over to servicedesignshow.com slash Confidence. And you'll also find the link in the show notes of this episode. I know that in our busy schedules, it's hard to find the time to invest in your professional growth. But if you want to break through that glass ceiling and take your career to the next level, this program is a great step that will help to get you there. But don't just take my word for it. Let's dive into the stories of the people who did. Let the show begin. Welcome to the show graduates. Awesome to see all at the end of this eight week journey. So proud of you. You've made it. We're going to talk a bit about what you've learned with tips you can share, the challenges that you faced or maybe are even still facing. And we're going to hear your stories a tiny bit of them. I'm really excited to jump into the conversation. We have six graduates here and we have to start somewhere. And I always like to say that I'm going to take the airplane. But in this case, I could even take the car because we're going to go off to Vroswaf. Kate, you're up first. That's always one of the most exciting moments because you haven't seen anyone else give you an example of how to do this. But this is also your opportunity to fill it in as you'd like. Let's start off with the question to understand a bit more about your context. What do you do these days? Sure. So my current role is called head of user experience design in IT software development company. And I have around 40 designers working together with me who are distributed globally. And we help clients to come up with software solutions. And around 90% of our clients are located in the United States. And as you can imagine, there are several challenges that I have during my work. So if I understand correctly, you're surrounded and in a heavy UX and digital environment, right? Yeah, that's right. Not the easiest place for service designers in general. You mentioned already something about challenges. What did you experience as one of the biggest challenges with regards to selling service design? So the biggest challenge is that the company that I've been working with for the past five years is engineering mostly. So clients come to us for engineering solutions. And design is always something complementary with engineering service. So it's always challenging to sell even UX and research. Because mostly, all we need to do is to design the solution to package in a beautiful package and come up with some beautiful mock-ups and easy to use experience. So the biggest challenge that I have faced with is to sell at least research and to sell at least something beyond beautiful mock-ups that we need to do to add value to what we're doing. And that's why I'm here. And I'm looking for ways to do it easily. So hopefully, I will do it because I have already found a lot of valuable insights in this course. And when you say that selling research and design research was challenging and that design maybe was a little bit an afterthought or at least not a primary thought, what was the consequence of this? How did this impact your work? Yeah, it always impacts my work because it oftentimes happens so that I'm in doubt about a certain solution and the client has already a strong vision and says that, well, I know that my competitors are doing this way and I don't need another opinions. And then once the product is launched, then it's in production and we see that I was right. So this is so generally that's the impact which this sort of neglects my advice has on further work. Yeah. So this is the classic example where not spending some time at the start of a project results in maybe adding a lot of additional time at the end. Makes sense. Now, you've gone on a journey for eight weeks to learn more about how to sell the value of research, how to sell the value of service design. What's the most important learning that you took away? So for me, the most important learning is the briefing. I actually was really surprised because it's so self-evident. It's so obvious that it should be done, but I didn't realize that it can be done in this way, how you explained it. So I think that this is a must now for me for our own projects and it will help me not only to polish my strategy, my further strategy, but also to come up with stories for my further prospects of clients. You mentioned debriefing. Yeah, debriefing. Yeah. Can you explain a bit more about what that is? So debriefing, meaning that after the project is finished, I talk to my clients and ask them what problems I helped to solve and what was the strongest impact of the work that I did for them. And those insights will help me to build my story and to enrich my portfolio for further talks with clients. Have you already been able to test this with some former clients? Not yet, unfortunately. Well, during the course we did this as an exercise and it was very valuable, but I hope to do it further even more after the next big project and we'll definitely do it. If somebody is listening and also struggling with how do I, well, I'm in a heavily tech and engineering-driven environment. There usually isn't a lot of appreciation for research. Which tip would you give them? First of all, don't give up. Here is a chance, I think. Also, look for the right points of contact because what I have learned is mostly we work with engineers or VPs of engineering and those are not the right people to sell, to sign or some extra design services. So it's very important to look for those points of contact who will understand you and definitely work hard on shaping the strategy, shaping the language and focusing on what they value while you speak about what you're proposing. So if those aren't the people, the usual suspects, who would be the first person you would reach out to? I think I would reach out to business people like CEOs of the company, maybe someone from marketing because they should understand the value better than CTO maybe and the VP of engineering. I even heard a recent term mentioned by one of the CTOs who I was talking to and trying to give some advice on the processes they have. We said we are a backend-driven product. So it was very interesting to learn. All right. Thank you for sharing. I'm really curious how your journey will evolve and how the debrief sessions will go because I absolutely do think there's so much value there. Thanks, Kate. And we're going to move on to the next graduate. Finjada, are you there? Hi, Mark. I'm here. Awesome. Good to see you. Same question for you to start off with. Could you share a bit more about your current role? Are you in-house? Are you on the agency side so that we have a little bit more context? Sure. I'm an in-house designer. I work as a lead UX designer. I've been working in software for over 10 years now, mostly focusing on SaaS products. In the last four years I've launched around three SaaS products. It's mostly end-to-end product design and launch. Also in a heavy tech and environment, heavy tech-driven environment, engineering-driven environment, that's maybe becoming a theme here. So did you recognize the same challenges Kate was sharing or were you running into some other challenges? Most definitely. Everything Kate was saying made total sense to me because I go through most of the things in my work situation as well. But my challenges are more in terms of when you're trying to drive to a launch, there's a certain time becomes a huge factor that determines the scope of the project and the kind of user research that you can incorporate into the product lifecycle at various points becomes questionable. And it's constantly my challenges to constantly drive and vouch for that and to keep pushing for that. And that's one of the challenges that I face. So you're part of a train that's moving. It has left the station. And then how do we still keep the customer or user perspective throughout the timeline? Is that what you're saying? Exactly. Exactly. To bring all stakeholders to think about. So just have that conversation about how this product is going to impact and can we test that as much as we can through the product lifecycle to bring those insights back into the product and iterate as we go ahead. So have those conversations and have those practices because it's so easy when you're trying to run at a particular time for launch to just put certain things out of the carpet and just try to implement what's planned for without really investing. Yeah. And then sort of at the it's better to save time at the start, although it feels that way than to run over schedule. Makes sense. Also, I'm curious to your learnings now that you've completed the program. What's your biggest takeaway so far? So it's again inherent to the kind of work that I've been exposed to. So it is usually I'm into a start a project. The project is running already. I'm just embarked on the project and everybody is waiting for design. So it is me trying to give them what they want, but also trying to slow the process and trying to do all the UX kind of work in the given context. So the project to the to the training that I've had with you, Mark, what I've lately been practicing even in the last four weeks, eight weeks that we've been working together is to bring those conversations to just actually pause the project as much as I can and have those conversations with business leaders and lead conversations that talk about what's the value that you're going to bring to the business? What value are we going to bring to draw those insights and work together? I've conducted two workshops in between to just so that everybody together put their head together and understand what's the value that you're going to bring to the customer, what values is going to bring to the business and hopefully co-create something and get the buy-in for more time and more research as well. How would this compare to your previous approach? How did you do this before going through the program? I think it's what has helped me is having that a framework for the kind of conversation. I think I used to have the intention for such conversations, but I didn't really know how exactly to frame these conversations and make sure what exactly is to be touched upon when we have these conversations. I think right now I have a better framework of how to approach these conversations and what to drive insights on what should be our, how do we define success for this project? How would we calculate the return of investment for this project? Have those conversations where people are just broadening their vision basically and looking at the project, not just the project, but looking at the overarching experience and all the touch points that you have throughout the service. It was always because if you're working on a software as a service, you're looking at the larger picture. It's not just the product, it is looking at the service. But to bring the business stakeholders also to a point where we're all looking at it together, I think that's something I'm achieving more recently than before. That was my next question. What's been the response now? Because when you say I'm trying to slow down a project that doesn't seem like people would get excited immediately, what kind of response did you get? Mix it, I would say, but I think it is the marketing team and the more senior level executors who are more open to the conversations that I'm having, but I'm still having challenges with the delivery team and the delivery lead. So it is a kind of balance. So again, I've been able to draw some insights from the program where we talk about how we can work within the constraints and look at the objections and work within the constraints. I try to tell myself maybe it's not everything that I can do at this point in time, but in the given context of time, what can I do? So I try to go back and forth and push as much as I can. And if I'm hearing you correctly, you now have at least some questions that you feel are relevant and you know why you're asking them and who to ask, and that gives more space to actually do these conversations. Is that right? Also, if you could end with a tip, like your ultimate tip for somebody who also wants to get better at selling service design, what would it be? For me, it is to follow your gut. If you feel that something is not right, probably it is something is not right. So you need to investigate also to reflect upon any conversation that you've had or the work that you've been doing. Take time out to reflect. I think that's something I learned from the program, to reflection is so important for us in design process. So take time to reflect and also if this follow your gut. And that's why we're also here to reflect, to pause, to think back and not run into the next course training program or whatever, but capture a moment at a time. Thank you, Finjada. Thank you for sharing and we're going to move on to our next graduate, Avi, all the way from Italy. We're staying a little bit in Europe today. Are you here with us? Yes, yes, hi all everybody. The first thing that we're always curious about is a bit of context. We've heard somebody who is in-house. What is your current situation? My current situation, I just recently finished a project. I did my service design master like four years ago and since then I've been working more in like social innovation research project, action research projects. I've been working with universities, organizing workshops that trying to open dialogue with communities. And then my recent projects always in this user research phase where mostly I was responsible in engaging with the client, interviewing clients and doing like observation of their current system. So I've been struggling with after finishing that project, I've been struggling like finding a new job or a new roles where I can sell service design in another situation because this kind of area of community engagement, stakeholder engagement are kind of very niche. A lot of service design agency that I know in Italy mostly they work with digital products. So one of the reasons why I'm trying to take this course is to understand like how can I sell service design for other kind of services because it's not immediate that like normal clients or maybe like someone who has a little business or try to do something they mostly if they come to me they think I do marketing and they think I do social media. And for me it's like okay I understand that service design is not someone it's not like the term that people try to buy from like a service provider like okay I wanted a service design for my project. So I'm trying to understand like how can service design fit in larger context than like digital product companies. It's been difficult. What's interesting is again on the agency side, Miara is in-house, you're basically independent and having a completely different conversations with potential clients and how you position yourself. When you say it's been difficult, what's the thing that you experience as most difficult? Well I think I mean I'm independent that I always work for a project so I never really sell I've never really been involved in creating the brief. It's also like the missing part that you know like when I have the brief it's it's already there so maybe if I have to organize a facility that the workshop there's already a brief of there's like a user research there's already a brief so I've never been involved in in that the briefing part of why the client want to do this and seeing the trend like I think this kind of user research in is very like anthropologic approach it's not very it doesn't really sell very easily for like a profit like for profit activities like I work for a university project financed by the government so it's not a for profit project. So yeah so maybe I think it's I don't know I mean it's maybe it's not really maybe it hasn't really gained traction like this road like this kind of branch like I don't know I mean it's still something that yeah I'm curious now listening to your context your situation again completely different than the two other professionals what do you take away from learning how to sell service design because you're probably listening to this and doing the exercises and assignments from a completely different starting point so I'm really curious what was your takeaway well I think for me one of the most important takeaway that I feel is really like familiarize myself with business terms and business point of view because that's the kind of like missing thing when you work in like kind of hybrid academic project they're like not so much that kind of needs so I think it's very important I mean for me the more I see service design I see it more as a part of like business strategy rather than like the interface in my opinion so I think it's very important to familiarize with the business business approach and understand what is important in business world and I would like to have more exposure to talk to potential client like I've been trying to do that like going to events and trying to tell people that I do service design like even recently there's like some digital week in in Turin and when I say that oh I'm service designer it's not so many people know what is service design even though you know like you're in this like digital like week there are people that talk about service design but then at the end they don't really call it service design so I think that's also an interesting thing that I learned from your course is that the service design name it's not really I mean the most easier name to open people attraction so I think that's the most interesting for me is to learn the business terminology and then trying to understand what are the business priority and their goals for me to be able to craft what kind of services that I can offer and eventually seeing service design as a tools rather than like the service itself life that's clear like that's kind of the the word I mean the kind of a conceptual map that I'm trying to do like what would be the top and the service design is like a tool that kind of help you to arrive to that yes it's a means to an end and I think it's always really important to keep reminding ourselves of that it's a really nice means to an ends but in the end it's all about the outcome and the results and the impact that we want to create so learning more about business learning more about strategy which tip would you give to somebody who is in a similar position as you are and also maybe facing the same struggles what would you tell them well I think that I agree with Kate the briefing the briefing it's very important part unfortunately I also rarely have that occasion like sometimes I did have feedback after the after but I am having like a kind of more formalized debriefing as part of the like wrapping up a project I think it's a very important thing and then the other thing would be I would I would say in my position would be like trying to be more flexible with the process with the methods and being able to face it yeah how would you be more flexible compared to what you were doing before maybe how to be more flexible I think it's important to be flexible in a sense that when the resources are limited if you're I mean if you're a client or whatever like my people that I have to to offer this service design work if they have limited time there are a lot of work that I mean if I want to follow the methods that's it's can't be really it's not really feasible so I think being flexible and kind of thinking more about even if a service design approach that I can bring to them it's already make a big difference so yeah that's be like my my my two my two tips for people be flexible and not sticking to rigidly to the method and like trying to do debrief understand like your client language and what's important for them thank you thank you after you very important good tips to remember thanks for sharing thank you let's move on to Finland in this case and are you here with us hello I'm happy that you are here so we've now heard three different scenarios somebody an agency somebody in-house somebody sort of independent freelancing what is your role and situation at the moment I actually originally wanted to take this course because I was between jobs I had finished in the old one and I knew that I would be starting in the new one and also in my previous job I actually didn't work with service design for a year because I was doing something else I was from mastering a design system team so it was really good to sort of catch up with all these sort of service design things before starting the new job and now I've been there a couple of weeks so this has been perfect timing in many ways and my current job is in-house job again my jobs have been always in in-house jobs and I'm also the only service designer in the company and I'm also the first service designer ever in the company so there's many new things for the company and partly also for me nice nice sort of green field you can influence a lot of things you have no heritage with regards to service design that you have to keep in mind awesome now you mentioned that you I remembered at moment to be honest you signed up for the program in between jobs I don't recall that you actually had a challenge selling service design I think you said something like I'm just interested in what this is like what made you sign up maybe that's my question here yeah I like like I said partly that I sort of wanted to update my skills and service design but I also saw that maybe selling service design is very important especially in this context that I am in because I am being the first service designer in a company so I would would like to sort of be an ambassador of service design in a very good way and I think this is something I actually got from this course also and I mean I also think that I have to convince them that's my job is important and my role is important and I can provide something new and that's also part of the job so and then I wanted to network with all these people who are in the same course so that's my motivation here as well yeah and that's a really nice way to put it like being the ambassador and even though you're in-house it doesn't mean that you don't have to sell I think people who are in-house actually probably have to do a lot more selling to their colleagues to all the stakeholders are just a lot more people around you who aren't already bought into service design interesting being the ambassador what would you say was the biggest challenge in selling it have you already experienced a challenge in in convincing people or is it easy going yeah I think at the moment I'm sort of working to get the people to see how they think because many people in the companies they think from inside and they they think about the processes and all the systems they have at the back end but actually they should be thinking more about the customers and how the customers feel and how do we make their life as simple as possible for the customers so that's what I'm working on at the moment that I want to sort of switch the focus of my colleagues to the customer who's outside the company not the inside so that's maybe my first challenge what I'm working on yeah how do you shift the perspective on inside what is it outside in inside out that's I always confuse these two things there is a very good book on that now did you find anything inside the program that helped you in this journey to shift this mindset possibly there has been many things I was sort of thinking about this that what would I say because I really feel that somehow somehow maybe I don't quite see yet what I've learned on this course I think it might take some time before I realize what things I really have learned during the course but at least I I've learned a lot about the communication that communication is very important that you don't use a jargon and you you really can explain you can simplify service design and compare it to the other other kinds of businesses so that's really important at least and that's that's what I feel that I learned here at least I mean I've learned many other things as well but I mean that's something I feel that I can use in my work as well that have these analogies of other businesses or other other sort of trades so that's something yeah how does service design fit in right how does it relate to things yeah people are already familiar with and comfortable with and then using that as a starting point to have the conversation correct yeah exactly what's what's the one tip that you would give somebody who's listening to this and in a similar situation I mean there's many things I would say also like I just do it and keep on explaining and repeat it that's something but also I want to mention when we saw Niamh Parsley from Spotify when she said show don't tell I just feel that that's so valuable advice and I want to pass it on because I just feel that showing what service designer is doing and how the service design is done and what kind of methods you use instead of telling I think that's really important lesson I learned all right can you give what is how do you try to implement this how do you try to show service design I actually already had started doing it in a similar way that Niamh told us so I have been also using a my report to collect my own thoughts like I've been collecting customer journeys and customer insights what I found in the company always when I learn something new I collect the information on the on the my robot but what I've learned from Niamh I decided I actually share my my robot even even it's not finalized and it was originally only meant for me I actually have already shared it with my colleagues and they are allowed to also sort of fill in the information which is missing or if I've understood something wrong and I just feel that that's like best cooperation there is that everybody can can sort of utilize the same board and fill in the information and we have everything visible transparent for all of us yeah so I'm really grateful for that advice I just feel that that was the greatest thing I actually learned on on this whole course so sorry it wasn't from you but you made it possible to learn that I'm happy it doesn't it doesn't have to come for me certainly not and yeah involving people making the process transparent showing how you're thinking involving people that's yeah in general a very good idea also Manu I'm really looking forward to how your ambassador ship will evolve over the coming months in this new role thanks for sharing thank you let's move on to our next graduate we're finally moving away from Europe and we're going to go into Dubai Jane are you with us hi Mark thanks for having me it's a real pleasure as always we like to start off with the question to understand a bit more about your context and it's also a special one so please enlighten us definitely so a little bit about my background I'm the series I lead in one of the largest bank in the UAE region so our practice is still new as we are practicing it we're also establishing series design so I guess shall we kick off the first question yeah so a bank in the UAE and you've recently started this role so I can imagine a lot of new things new culture different environment surf design is new there must be tons of challenges but if you had to pick one what do you feel would be the the biggest challenge that you'd like to share yeah I think from you could say it's a challenge you could also say as one of my goals is advocacy of service design so bring the awareness to the team internal team members as well as other teams such as like product business side I think the challenge for overall is how do people understand what service design is do they actually know the value of it so what I've learned from the course is that speak in a language of your clients and then bring alignment so when they mention about business outcomes what does it mean from a customer expectations and journey perspective right and so that's one thing a second thing is that you know one of the case studies or activity you mentioned about identify the cost drivers and the growth drivers right so I think that's something I've I haven't learned that before so that really paints the bigger picture from a strategy perspective so I felt I can implement that into my part of you know the cell and service design which helps them to understand we are in this together but I'm more helping you to understand from a customer perspective yeah that's such an important thing or again to mention that learning the language of well in this case maybe also a different country but other disciplines like business like strategy like what are the things that are going through their mind rather than inviting them into our world and then hoping that they will get interested in service design let's start with understanding their world and then trying to find the connections with service design from there right yeah definitely I think schedule my first session with the stakeholders to really understand your intense elaborate on the contacts can already bring in some alignment in that first step you mentioned something about cost drivers and growth drivers what are they and how are they helping you yeah so I remember in one of the graphs you proposed is service design as an investment more than a cost so visualize that while talking to the stakeholders are going to be really important now in terms of example it will be a sustainable strategy that can go long term or how can we make sure that customers will be a you know do repetitive transactions rather than a a great customer who will never use our services again so these are the real examples that are that will bring resonance for both sides right yeah yeah and making that tangible because it's really easy to see the investment required in a service design project in terms of time in terms of money in terms of manpower but we rarely spend enough time to actually figure out okay what's on the other side of the equation if we invest this what's coming out at the end and I think like what you're mentioning taking the time to figure this out to add some numbers to have at least a conversation of what should be on the other side is so helpful yes and then that's also one of the lessons I've learned is tell the story with stats so having some numbers indicated will also have more to buy-ins or helping customers I mean stakeholders understand and develop it also question to you maybe if we rephrase it just for the fun of it like what's the one tip you wish you would have gotten maybe from somebody else who has done the program before like what's the one thing where somebody had told you I would relate to what our guest speaker mentioned about just get started I find you know there are lots of links and resources online scattered resources and if you keep digging up of course you're gonna have a whole pile of resources right but at the end of the day you have to get started to show let them feel feel the power of services I just like a new mentioned and then make sure the work is engaging so that it's not only about A versus B it's more like collaborating cooperation and do you feel that it took you too long to get started were you looking into too many resources I find I mean scheduling workshop is alright it does not lead to let's say that has a lot of preparation work but in terms of that's a listing everything on a website to show the value fits I've maybe I'm towarding a perfectionist away but I find at least visualizing the roadmap and even you know let's say draft 2.0 version should be good enough to start with I think this saying is create a shitty first draft and then just just start and like also Anno said it's great that it's not perfect like show the rough messy versions because that invites people in right they can collaborate and help you along the road Jane thank you also for sharing interesting to hear all these different perspectives people different companies different areas different cultures thank you for sharing and we were going to go to our final destination today Christina all the way from tell us where are you Australia Australia which part of Australia because it's a big country okay so I'm on the west coast all the way down the bottom so it's very very far from the big cities I would I'm working for a local government so I'm working in the public sector in a very beautiful part of the world very tourist kind of drawcard wine region that's famous for surfing and hiking in nature and with that comes a lot of challenges yeah as a government providing lots of services and infrastructure for people to enjoy so you're in a beautiful part of Australia you're working in the public sector as a service design professional or what is your title yeah sure so my title is customer experience coordinator it's a new role at the organization and I look after the customer services front you know front line team the communications team and the community engagement team of the organization so yeah definitely service design is not a word that many people even know about in the organization so you know that was like number one tip that I got from your course what was the number one tip yeah don't sell don't sell service design by talking about service design you know and the methods and you know someone's mentioned the jargon because people just switch off you need to try and like you know understand who the audience is who are you talking to and what's their world like you know which area of the business are they working in and then try and like use an example of things that they're doing a process that they've got or is something that they deliver the service that they deliver and then kind of give an example of how you can improve that and I guess you know then you go well that's what service design is you know so don't lead in with oh service design yeah let me tell you what that is that is that is tip one and what drew you to this program like this is about learning how to sell service design were you experiencing any challenges related to this or again what brought you here um I kind of like I guess I really have a big focus on human center design practices so um you know UX design customer experience design and of course like service design is a critical component that of that whole practice um and I guess like I've had experience now on more the UX side of things um and then in this role like I guess it was very obvious that you can't you can't improve customer experience without looking at the services that sit behind because that that's what drives the customer experience so you really need to be able to understand what the back end processes are the the people and the structures that you've got of teams the culture that's going on in the back end because that all impacts on then the front end experience that your customers are going to have um and so yeah I kind of I need to be involved in this up I'm going to be successful in my role in the customer experience domain yeah yeah and was that uh was was that a struggle was that a tough conversation was uh like I think um so we've talked about how people love the idea of um show don't do what was it do show don't tell yeah show don't tell um and so yeah I was lucky enough to work I led like a um a redesign of a web web projects of the corporate website um and I wanted to take you know human sense design um approach to that so it was a really great case study to just show the whole organization um they were you know we we worked through the project with everybody in the organization and customers at various different touch points in the project um and I think you know it was a year-long project and so many different people were involved they got to see the end result and we got to explain what we're doing as part of the process um and they were really happy with that so now um some of the other projects that I'm working on like putting together customer experience strategy taking a similar approach um people are like oh yeah okay I remember you kind of did this approach with the website oh yeah you went and interviewed a whole lot of customers to ask them x y z oh yeah you met with all of us you know the 19 different areas of the business to ask questions about what common challenges were and where we see the opportunities and kind of see where you're going with this so yeah getting um a project under your belt like a win is like a really good way to show people the value yeah absolutely and when you get the opportunity that's golden and especially if you are able to uh take it from start to end and have something tangible to show um from this context uh what was your biggest learning biggest lesson biggest takeaway from everything that we've discussed over the last eight weeks um well I kind of led in with it about don't talk about service design methods in jargon but I think um I really liked the like creating a business case using some of the math examples so I think definitely in the public sector and I think Afi talked about this um it's less driven by our profit because you know you're a government so a lot of this stuff that you do is not for profit um but you can definitely use examples to show you know you kind of speak to the things that the business um cares about that they or some of the challenges that they got for example they're very limited with resourcing so if you can kind of um give math examples for how hey this process is super inefficient and that equals um you know resources x amount of resources or people or time um that you're spending to to deliver the service and hey if we went around and we looked at better ways to do this you could potentially save I don't know 20 hours of people's time a day um that's the kind of thing that really speaks to the sector yeah so um I really that's a good takeaway like using those math examples to kind of support the business case it's funny that we can just prototype with numbers we don't have to have a degree in math or we don't have to have a degree in economics to still make a compelling argument and and just uh yeah to add some numbers to the value of the work that we're doing um and then let's close off with your final tip because this was your biggest lesson or takeaway to apply some math to service design is that also your tip or do you have something else to share um I think don't give up because it's it can be really it can be a kind of lonely road sometimes especially if you know your organization if you're in house let's say I guess it's also for um um people in agencies you've got varying levels of um maturity um so I'm working in an organization that's really at the beginning of their journey in terms of becoming more community or customer centric so it's like it's it's a kind of drum that you're constantly feeling like you've got a beat but you are starting you know when you start to get a few little followers it starts to make it um easier uh and people that you know projects that you've done with other areas of the business um that have kind of seen the value of what you're doing and then they start to be your advocates and um that's when you start to get a bit more momentum I've kind of like maybe got a couple of those people at the moment but working on projects to hope you know have case studies that I can show other areas of the organization and get some more momentum and investment yeah in the business area yeah don't give up find support find the community don't try to um go on this journey alone there are more people like you who are passionate about this really there are so I second your suggestion don't give up thanks Christina thanks for sharing this brings us back to closing moments because our journey official journey ends here but I'm sure that we'll have our conversations somewhere else down the line one final time I want to thank you for completing this for investing in yourself to becoming a better more well-rounded professional well done and uh I'm sure our conversations will continue somewhere else thank you how to clearly communicate the benefits of our work is a topic that we need to keep addressing in the service design space once again I want to thank these six service design professionals for coming on the show and sharing their stories with us as you've made it this far into the episode I'm quite sure that you also see that tremendous value of being able to communicate the value of service design to business leaders who don't necessarily have a design background and the great thing is that mastering this skill isn't hard you just need to know what the right steps are and take them in the correct order if you want my guidance on that journey the selling service design with confidence program is exactly the place where you need to be at the time of the recording there's one more cohort scheduled for 2023 and depending on when you're listening to this you might still be able to benefit from the early bird discount for all the instructions on how to apply head over to service design show dot com slash confidence as we have a limited number of seats available in the program there is an application process so head over to service design show dot com slash confidence for all the details and instructions on how to send in your application my name is mark from time and I want to thank you for being part of this community keep making a positive impact I'll catch you very soon in a brand new episode of the service design show see you then