 Que dar bienvenidos a todos, oi Carlos de Vega en este programa especial. Nós queremos analizar, en esta debate, o qualidade de esta blu, o que é para fazer esta growth solidar e permanente, e o que as qualidades latino-america podeis oferecer a outros continentes como exemplo. Deixe-me introduzir nun Mrs. Anabel González, ministro de traídas de Costa Rica. Luis Miguel Castilla Rubio, ministro de economía e finanza de Perú, que García Rodríguez, presidente de CAF, o Back of Latin America, Ernest Sorensen, presidenta e CEO de Merit International. Thank you for coming. Finalmente Francisco Sanchez, U.S. Undersecretary of Commerce for International Trade. Alicia, you are the only lady in the panel, but since we have here represented the host country that has given us such a warm welcome, if you allow me I am going to start with minister Luis Miguel Castilla Rubio. Mr. Minister, when you sit at your table and you look at Perú's growth figures, 6%, you would say probably I am satisfied, but how can you make these figures permanent? What is the fundamental element so that Perú can maintain this growth and that it spreads to other Latin American countries? Well, I can't say I am happy because we cannot live on the basis of the past, but I think how we can continue to have these high growth rates. Of course we have a glued platform, we have solid macroeconomic foundations and we are trying to encourage openness to international trade as well as investments, but we want these investments to turn into development and this growth to turn into development too. That is why we require effective regulations that will bring benefits to the population. Therefore our basis is solid and after many decades of not having sustained growth we are now in this favorable situation, but this motivates me to continue implementing policies in order to continue fostering this sustained growth that is not permanent in other places of the world. Well, some analysts are concerned because in some countries may depend too much on commodities which continue to be the engine in many economies in the continent. Do you have to take this into account for the future? Well, I believe that an important challenge for the region is diversification. This is a very rich region in natural resources and they are a source of economic wealth. However, for many reasons that we know well it is important to focus on diversification. In the case of my country, Costa Rica, we are not exporting our natural resources, the resources of mining and agricultural activities only, but we also want to have regional value chains, especially the production of manufacturers in the world because at the moment they are based on the manufacturing of parts and components in one country, other parts in another country and finally assembling in a third country. In Costa Rica, almost 40% of our exports are linked to the participation in global chains of values, for example in electronics products, high tech products, automotive industry and others. Therefore, our country has to have a larger exporting base, more diversified and more sophisticated. Twenty years ago we were exporting three or four commodities, but now we are exporting a large number of products to more than 150 countries. Enrique Rodriguez, you seem to be ascending. Well, yes, in fact, we have seen that Latin America and South America in particular, which has a vast wealth and richness whose exports have grown a lot during these last years, thanks to the Chinese effects and the very high price of commodities cannot lag behind. I believe that this is a very important platform, this economic behavior that the minister has described for Peru but that can be applied in general terms to the rest of Latin America. So it is necessary to jump to what we call competitive advantages, the value chain and some other elements that change our patterns because there are cycles that change every five years or a little longer. And this is a very long cycle and we have to take advantage of it in the most effective possible way. And in this regard, political consistency is very important. Coming back to Peru, which is a very interesting example, this is a country in which for many years there were various governments and ideologies, but however the continuity of macroeconomic policies has been such that they have led Peru to its current situation. For Latin America and Peru also, I always said there is life beyond macroeconomics and this is the moment for microeconomics, efficiency, innovation institutions, education. We will talk in a minute about microeconomics and how it can affect the population positively or not. But firstly I would like to ask Francisco Sanchez. When we talk about value chains, are we talking about a model, does that not apply the free trade treaties that U.S. has defined? Is it a new model of relationship between the North and the South? No, on the contrary, I believe that free trade agreements facilitate these values you have just mentioned, value chains you have just mentioned. I believe it is important to take into account not only the gross export numbers but also the aggregate number of these exports. China is buying a lot from Latin America, but mostly they are buying commodities or natural products and not products that have valid value added. In the case of the U.S., many products had an added value and many chains, for example the aviation industry. Let's take Brazil as an example and there's also a Canadian enterprise, which has a network that is manufactured in Canada, the United States and Mexico. The Embraer is manufacturing planes in Brazil with a very strong component that comes from the U.S. In the automotive industry, U.S. products are used but they are manufactured in Mexico. The same applies to the textile sector. There is a value chain that is being facilitated by the free trade agreements. And from my point of view, this is a more important value. It is better than only selling commodities or natural products. Here we have a representative of the private sector. We are talking about political stability and relative changes. From the point of view of the entrepreneur, do you see this when you invest in Latin America? I apologize for not being able to speak Spanish with you and for the slight delay in answering your question because the interpreter is a little few seconds behind you. In any event, the region is rich with success and I think it's rich with success because of the stability of government policies seeking growth across so many countries in Latin America. Not everyone, there are obviously areas of concern and of weakness, but you look across these big and small markets and what you see is governments that are focused on growth clearly using natural resources as a leading edge into that, but it is the economic interdependence, not just with the United States but with the rest of the world which has allowed the natural resources to give rise to this first phase of growth. That same economic interdependence will allow the next phase of economic growth which depends on diversification clearly of the economies, hopefully more into the manufacturing space as opposed to simply the provision of natural resources and beyond that into services industries like the hotel business and other things where the openness of this market and the attractiveness of this market as a place to visit, as a place to do business will continue to give rise to that growth, but there is much more to celebrate here than there is to fear. You represent a very important chain and a powerful one. I would like to open the debate to another matter which is social entrepreneurial initiative that is to say those initiatives that take into account social development and not only the economic profitability of the enterprises. We have here representatives from Costa Rica and Peru and I would ask them to what extent your political efforts are targeted to these kind of initiatives that are environmental friendly and that have a much higher impact than they used to have in the past because they don't think only of figures. Well, we are going from a quantitative to a qualitative outlook and we want quality growth that creates employment as well as technological progress and that brings in technology from abroad. I believe that we are trying to direct these flows of knowledge way beyond the traditional results of enterprises with regard to free trade flows. Peru has opened its policies and we have made investments in non-traditional sectors like the service sector and this has fed a new middle class. Therefore, we are creating a virtuous circle which allows us to grow with quality and obviously there is something else which I would like to bring into the discussion. We have to take into account our comparative advantages and the fact of having these advantages is an asset on which we have to capitalize and diversification can be based on these comparative advantages which is the case of Nordic countries, Australia, New Zealand, Chile and hopefully Peru too. Hopefully we will be able to be in the future not a country that exports only raw materials but a country also that exports services and other non-traditional raw materials or natural resources. With regard to human indicators, human development indicators we still see a lot of difference between wealthy people and poor people and in this case macro factors are much faster than micro factors. What do you think? Well maybe this is not an end in itself and when we talk about quality growth we are talking here about impulsive growth. Peru is growing at very high and quick rates but not the whole country is included in this growth. Therefore it is necessary to make the people at large feel this growth. We believe that it is intelligent to work with the private sector and also have the state lead the people providing them with high quality services. Infrastructure is a very good example. For example building roads and interconnecting production sectors and centers with markets. It is necessary also to invest in human resources in order to have high quality resources and I insist on this word quality. It is necessary to have good coverage but if we analyze education in our countries like Peru this is a big challenge. It is necessary to achieve not only tertiary education but also high quality technical education according to the needs of the market. We are talking here about competitiveness that includes innovation, education and many other things that are not only productivity. Costa Rica is also an example of development of these policies that have a more social and in our country for a long time we have invested in health and education and we are now harvesting the results. As we said this morning we have seen the social protection index that assessed 50 countries in the world and the basis of results that take into account social progress and Costa Rica was in the second place in this rating and this is consistent with the place that we have according to other indexes. However these global figures always hide challenges that we may have in many sectors and that it is necessary to address. However we have many strategic growth elements that have to be inclusive and have to take into account some of the aspects you mentioned. Let us think for example of development of ecotourism that is an equalizing factor for the economies of our respective countries and also let us think of the possibility of exporting services beyond tourism. Tourism is very important and I think also of information technology for example. Last year in Costa Rica we exported more entrepreneurial services and ITC services than agricultural products and this shows a very important transformation that is taking place into our country because new opportunities are opening and we have new challenges to phase 2 for Mr. Sorensen. It would seem that when we talk about enterprises that have a social concept or objective we are also saying that traditional enterprises may be will have to diminish their profitability. It would seem that these are two opposed elements some enterprises that only look for profitability whereas others have a more social conscious or awareness and this would bring down profitability and this may be a concern for entrepreneurs it is so. I think businesses can be profitable and create jobs and opportunity for their employees in a way which transforms their lives and with education creates an extraordinarily sustainable and powerful entrepreneurial base. So you look at the travel industry we think a much higher percentage of revenues from a hotel are left in market in wages and in the supply chain than in virtually any other industry. We have only about 500 associates in Peru today but some of them include folks who are trained from disadvantaged neighborhoods here in Lima. Their lives are transformed by the jobs that they've getting their families lives are transformed and ultimately over time and with education they will be able to make choices hopefully many of them will stay because they love their work but make choices about providing a tour operator providing a agricultural supplier to the hotel or venturing out and doing an IT service to provide services to a hotel or to other businesses and I actually think with the right kind of focus on creating opportunities for your people which is something that we are very focused on doing we create something which is much more sustainable because it's also economically rational than by saying we're going to go to a different place and say we're going to erect different standards and say we're going to create jobs which don't depend on profitability. I think economic self-interest is the most powerful engine of growth and it can be something that is rich with opportunities for people. Luis Miguel, déjame un segundo. Luis Miguel, just give me a second here. You've just talked about education and I know it's one of the concerns that Enrique has had for ever and ever and ever. Education in Latin America specifically and I am sure that there is certainly much to be done like continent with regard to that because the indicators say that even though there is more investment the indicators are not as favourable as they should be. You are going back to education. Well yes, at the end of the day if we go back to the fundamental key concern we should have in Latin America well there has been tremendous progress in the reduction of poverty. In Latin America in the last ten, fifteen years there are no countries that have not seen a substantive reduction in their levels of poverty. However there is a key issue which is inequality and if we seek to have social solutions in the long term then we see a direct tie-in between the topic we were talking about just a moment ago which is training for production because this is how we can create new opportunities for employment and productive employment and that's through education and it all depends of course our productive capability depends on our human capital and a young child in the countryside who doesn't have opportunities during the first eight, nine years of life obviously is not going to be able to succeed in a new economy but that's not enough we don't need to just educate that child in the countryside but we also need to provide education for the 21st century with technology and so forth you look at Korea, you look at Singapore and you look at what they're learning they're looking at these and learning about these topics that are future looking it's easy to say but it has a lot to do with the willingness of governments to look not just in the short term but also in the long term and the willingness of society overall to secure agendas that are looking out not three, four, five years but ten or twenty because the educational system will not change in three or four years but in five or ten Luis Miguel if you have a Peruvian who really wants to study can they continue to study can they study here or do they have to go to Harvard or somewhere else I think that's one of the challenges that we have with especially higher education in Peru there have been explosion the existence of these types of institutions but we do have a question of quality particularly in our private institutions of higher learning it's certainly subject to debate and therefore the certification at higher education of quality is an issue as is Votek training of course we need a lot of attorneys a lot of economists but we are not producing much of the skilled workers that we need at the intermediate level and the sense of happening in the industry an industry does it and picks up the slack because they have to but there is certainly a space available there for the public sector to channel these concepts and ideas there is something that Arnie said and it's not just a matter of corporate social responsibility it's a matter of cost but also as shared values companies that invest in a community and their performance are more profitable they can certainly be more profitable and at the end of the day you grow to be able to distribute and be more inclusive and more inclusive societies can also grow more and so there is a virtuous cycle there but undoubtedly education is a fundamental issue where social inclusion and education absolutely go hand in hand so we are saying is a pending challenge for a Peru absolutely let me ask Francisco Sanchez in this scenario that we are describing of the future of initiatives for Latin American and so forth is the US where it wants to be or are you perhaps reaping the benefits of previous decades in other words we're friends but not as best buddies as we might be look we see the relationship with the countries in this hemisphere if we collaborate and we work with respect on our mutual interests there is much to be gained and that is the approach of President Barack Obama seeking to focus on trade the United States has 20 free trade agreements across the globe the majority of those accords are within this hemisphere and I think we recognize firstly that this hemisphere is extremely important to the United States if we integrate even more there have been some examples in some sectors that is to our mutual benefit therefore we are on the path where we need to be in terms of our relationship but there is still a tremendous amount of potential to bring to fruition are you aware of the fact that there has been in this impression since the beginning the first mandate of President Obama that since he came to office he's sort of looking toward each but he's forgotten Latin America and I think that that is sort of an impression and I'd like to ask for other people's thoughts I wonder whether it's still the fact well 40 years ago or 30 40 years ago you could say that some people thought that we were paying too much attention to Latin America and to the Americas and then and now people say that we're not paying enough yes but obviously the scenario 20 30 years ago was very different from what it is today that's true but I think that's the point because also the way that we manage this relationship has also changed and it's more of a partnership it's more collaborative in nature in terms of the relationship and that's very different from the way it was so in moving from one type of relationship to another it may appear that there is a dearth of interest but I would say that's not the case in the work that I do and what my colleagues do with countries across Latin America particularly in the area of trade we are very much involved we see that this is very important to our future and we seek to continue to find ways to integrate I don't think you do agree or I think the key topic here and we in Fresco and I have discussed this often is that we can't look at Latin America as if it were a homogenous region it's not, there are many common factors of course but the relationship of the US with different countries of Latin America needs to be tailor made it's one thing that there's some countries and this is a topic that is very much in vogue the trans-pacific agreement and the areas that we have in common and also FTAs and policies that's one thing and the other is a question of Mercosur and within Mercosur we have a small tiny country by the name of Brazil and we also have the Caribbean the region and so forth and so there has to be a multi-pronged approach but the key thing is that if Latin America in its diversity of expressions of integration does not make progress on its own it will be extremely difficult that the region will be able to take a position on the world stage as it should and I mean we're a little bit complacent and we tend to close our eyes and we believe that we've lost importance but we really happen if we look at the exports exports 25 years ago or 18% of worldwide imports today they are 7% worldwide GDP as compared to Latin America continues to be 6% or 7% so there is a challenge here of integration that is extremely substantive renewed pragmatic integration that we, economists, politicians the institutions like the one that I preside over need to work pragmatically and I said you wanted to say something yes I believe that one of the new elements that we're talking about here in the second term of President Obama is a real drive in the area of trade he has placed a highlight on an accent on Trans-Pacific Alliance agreements and also on striking an accord with the EU I believe that these are two very valuable efforts that will generate economic growth in these countries in the region and therefore across the globe that will bring a new effort to our marketplaces and that will also have an impact in changing the rules of the game a bit in the framework within the context of the WTO now nonetheless that said it seems to me very important to note that this new block that is being formed Latin America should have a participation we have a very solid base which are these FTEs that we have with many countries and this relationship that we have with the United States that Francisco has just referred to but the question is how can we take full advantage of everything we have before us is it through measures to facilitate trade is it through integration and infrastructure is it in the field of energy and so on and so forth and so therefore there are a series of different areas where we can strengthen what we already have but Latin America also is a key and component in these policies of the U.S. around the globe since you've mentioned integration and it's true that Latin America is extremely heterogeneous but in some cases it's more homogeneous than Europe I mean we have the common language for example except for Brazil but in any case Europe doesn't have that commonality so I wonder if I called the future on the phone and I asked the future about Latin America what would the future say because in Europe we have the EU with all of its defects Asia has ASEAN what is the form in Latin America that will be the one that will pick up the phone when the future calls that is the billion dollar question I think there is a problem and that is that there is tremendous fragmentation I mean there have been some institutions non particularly good quality institutions that were created in the 1960s and they have copied tremendously the European model they've made progress but their divergence also emerged and they were tremendously fragmented and there is tremendous divisiveness and I think we need to resolve that because otherwise we will not be able to get active on the worldwide stage as you suggest I think that that fragmentation also corresponds to certain realities that are present across the region and it seems that in the region we have always sought to have a unified Latin America and that is a lofty goal indeed but I think that there are a lot of initiatives that are very valuable that are being unrolled and unrolled within the region and these are for example the Trans-Pacific Alliance that includes Mexico, Chile, Peru, Colombia Costa Rica is aspiring to form a part of it as well and we look forward to joining next month but other countries in the region are looking at this with tremendous interest and this is a group of countries that have showed that they have a shared agreement they understand trade, commerce and they are trying to work in a given fashion so it seems to me that this Trans-Pacific Alliance can be perhaps the organization that will enter the phone when the future calls but these ideological aspects I mean Peru is sort of in the middle there in terms I mean there were a lot of people who were concerned that it could become a new form of Chavismo and yet you mentioned strength a balance between two and worlds can do you see the region being separated pulled apart in two different directions? I don't think it's fair to label countries each country follows its own course in history and our policies in Peru are pragmatic what works works and what doesn't is discarded and we have focused on looking at our center of gravity which is Asia Pacific and integrate there we have magnificent relations in terms of physical connectivity with Brazil but we have looked at financial economic integration with the countries that Anavel was just referring to and it's really pragmatic it is stock market integration we're looking at how we can facilitate the flow of people with visa suppression or visa waiver programs being much more pragmatic and much less political because we believe that these blocks have to respond to economic issues that are very clear so that they can provide continuity and that we should not get bogged down in discussions that are very not very useful and so I think that the Trans-Pacific Alliance and the countries that seek to join the TPA are working along the same vein working on economic tangible values and now Asia Pacific let me just ask a little bit of a provocative question on this and there are people who believe that China is basically buying out Latin America that the Chinese influence is on the rise I don't know whether that is with the United States or despite the United States but how fearful should we be of China as an investor in Latin America in terms of the dependency that might be created I don't think we should fear them I think we need to get a more symmetrical relationship and seek that out obviously the way things are being run is not sustainable and Francisco and I agree on this and what are we exporting raw materials and basically the investment is fundamentally for that production and we're getting exports in return and that's not a sustainable long-term model so I think that it is an economic aspect sure but it's also political we need to seek new agreement and ensure that investment from China to Latin America also comes in in areas with greater added value and we need to think about these relationships that exist in terms of trade now there is something that I wanted to toss out on the table and that is that we should not forget don't forget the Atlantic today there is a very interesting debate and the importance of the Atlantic in Canada, the United States Latin America and Europe and Africa and there is potential there as well balance between the Atlantic and the Pacific is very important and I think the Pacific is vital of course but it's not the only thing out there you want to say something? I wanted to respond to two things I agree wholeheartedly with the minister in that the Trans-Pacific Alliance I like the word platform not block because to me the idea of a platform means that you can start with four or five countries but that can then be expanded to five, six, seven, eight, nine or more and hopefully in the future you can expand that even more to additional countries but I think that the word key word which should be in collaboration perhaps it's not as well organized as the EU although some people might say they're not that or organized in the EU these days either but in any case I believe that the topic is coordination I'm sorry that's hitting below the bell you know, that's hitting below the bell but in any case I think that this initiative is very important and as Enrique said the relationship with China also has to change and one way of changing is by being more competitive and it seems to me that one of the ways that we can do that is by integrating our countries in our hemisphere including the United States if we can do that more effectively will all benefit will all be more competitive vis-a-vis other countries around the globe including China time is flying by but you've been talking about the EU you've been talking about the Atlantic Access and we need to also recollect that Europe is today the largest investor in Latin America today despite the crisis and as a businessman I mean you have a European base I wonder what you think about what is happening in Europe and where this might be going what is the impression that you have of what is happening in Europe in the so-called European crisis Interested by the conversation you've just had because it sounded a little bit for a moment like the only place in the world that was thinking the EU as a model that they wanted to copy and I think in some respects when you look across Latin America you can celebrate the diversity of these countries and seek economic interdependence without losing the levers to control your own economies which is what has happened in Europe and it's not a pretty story our performance in Europe will be zero this year when the rest of the world including the United States and Latin America and Asia is growing at 6% or 7% or 5% or 6% or 7% some number like that which is good healthy growth when we look at the next 10 years in Europe we see 10 years of the same of very tough times because no country has got the tools that are necessary in order to control its own destiny and here because of the independence that you've preserved politically you can pursue policies which are appropriate for different countries in different places of their economic environment you think about Costa Rica and the advantage it already has in education it's really universal literacy very different from some other countries in Latin America so they should be implementing policies which are different clearly than the policies in some other markets and so it's a fascinating conversation to listen to you also in communicating this fear concern about China you also look at one of the engines which is delivering this growth and then say well what about the downside of that risk and of course you've got to manage that well but that is an engine of growth and it's an engine of growth in Latin America it's an engine of growth in the United States and much of the rest of the world so how do you make sure that you're responding in a way that says alright we're going to take this growth and we're going to turn it into growth that we have a greater ability to control one of the trends which is so hugely important which is not in the control of Latin America but is in many respects the evolution of this interdependence is the return of manufacturing to Mexico and Central America from Asia and it's happening because labor is getting more expensive over there because energy is expensive because there are huge advantages of being close to consuming markets and it would suggest that maybe in the next near term the growth could be more North and South across Latin America but to include North America as well in a way that will strengthen the growth that's already here because of what's happened from China and not provide further threat Anabelle, querida Hilo Encuentro que... Well I think that for Latin America it is very positive to have diversified relations also was mentioned diversification of the economy earlier and I think that it is good to have a healthy relationship with the United States, with China with the European Union and also among ourselves here in Latin America and I think that this can be seen in the change that has been in the composition of the exports from many countries in the region if I look at the Costa Rica of today 40% of our trade goes to North America 20% to Europe 20% to China and 20% to Latin American countries so this is a good balance quite healthy balance that has allowed us in a country that is integrated to international economy to continue increasing our exports at a rate of 7-8% in spite of the difficulties elsewhere in the world so I believe that this possibility of achieving a positive balance and a diversification is good we have to think of how we have to establish these relationships with other regions in the world so that this relationship serves every interest What can Latin America offer to the rest of the world in the future? Can you export ideas to other continents like Europe, Asia about how to do things and how to improve your situation on the basis of the experience of this continent that has stable growth for many years now Well, we could sell the following experience how to manage macroeconomic imbalances in an effective manner during the 80s and the 70s also we carried out every imaginable disaster and we have tried many medicines that Europe is applying now and we see with concern that it is taking a long time in our political context we have to solve our problems country by country in Europe there is a community and this is a different matter but we have not we must take into account the fact that Europe is Europe they are going through an adjustment process but it is a partner that Latin America as Annabel says and the United States too have to take into account we have to look at the rest of the world we have free trade agreements and the important question is what can I sell? we have to be efficient we have to be productive we have to transform our productions in order to sell in our markets otherwise we won't be able to sell Well, you were nodding do you want to add something? I think that there are many ideas here on the table we have discussed education and the sophistication of exports and there's no room for complacency that is something you said and I believe it's interesting but again it's a year with good news and good prospects for Latin America maybe education is one of the main challenges and maybe the audience wants to ask questions now would you like to ask a question to a panelist one of our excellent panelist in particular please raise your hands my name is José Luis Cordeiro I am the director for Venezuela of the Millennium Project you were asking for ideas and let me give you one to eliminate armies in the case of my country we spend more in 100,000 military men and women than 10 million students and in the case of Costa Rica the education budget was doubled and the army was eliminated and thank you they want they always go for they always seeking for trouble thank you I support your idea well I don't support that idea just in case well that countries that have had a very complicated situation for many years with a broader scope we are not talking here about external enemies we have internal enemies we have drug trafficking we have illegal mining activities and I believe that we have to adapt our reality to the needs of having security and protecting citizens and fighting against citizens insecurity so we have to attack these problems with the right forces and this is the main problems the lack of security as well as smuggling and drug trafficking these are issues that are still pending matters in our agenda in the region any other questions from the audience there is a gentleman here at the back thank you very much I am the chair of an international longevity center the central matter in this session is transitions so I would like to hear your comments about this transition in demographics that has repercussions on many matters and very significant repercussions our population is aging in Latin America and my life expectancy when I was born was 43 years now it is 75 years so 30 years more of life and the birth rates are decreasing throughout the continent so we have to get ready for this transition and I would like to hear your comments in this regard Enrique would you like to say something or Miguel maybe well what you say is true and in Europe we see many problems because the population has aged and likewise in Japan and the southern corner of Latin America in Peru we have more young people than in the rest of the countries but however it is necessary to have the right coverage for many years we have had a private pension system that covered only one third of the population and as a population ages it is necessary to protect them and give them the right coverage so what you have just mentioned the evolution of demographics and the need to have long term policies in order to have the right coverage and avoid poverty in the old age is something that is fundamental and it is therefore necessary to have more people employed in the formal sector that contributes to pension plans and systems and I believe that this is one of the great challenges that we face and not everybody is aware of this fact it is as to have a social protection network that is sustainable in the long term and this has not been the case in many countries and it has led to many crisis that is why it is necessary to rethink our models and to have fiscal soundness and of course there is a cost in all this that is why it is necessary to think whether it is a question of education or how many factors this entails thank you very much other questions good afternoon Francisco Flores from Eco Magazine we are talking here about sustainable growth and development and an important matter that will affect enterprises in the future is CSR Mr. Sorasen you have brought this subject but I don't see that you have discussed corporate social responsibility from the point of view of governments this trend comes from the private sector what are governments doing in this regard in order to support this CSR and include it in sustainable growth well this is a fundamental component in many of our countries in the development of enterprises at least in my country there is cooperation between public and private enterprises and I believe it is a case for other countries it is not an additional element but it is part of the new business model that takes into account environmental and social aspects and they have become part of the enterprise activity we have many interesting examples in my country and I mentioned sector in particular where this element is very strong ecotourism this is a sector that offers huge opportunities in many countries for example here in Peru we have seen many exciting developments as well as in Panama, Colombia, Ecuador, Costa Rica many countries in the region and this sector I believe is like a kind of lab for the development of this kind of policies but there is no doubt in my opinion that we will see enterprises evolving along this line as well as governments in the future it is part of the policies that governments are applying and it is a fundamental element of competitiveness for enterprises in the future I would add environmental sustainability which is also a responsibility of the governments a key sector is infrastructure Latin America invests about 3% of GDP in infrastructure while it should invest at least twice this figure but this is a problem traditional in the past when feasibility studies were made for infrastructure projects engineers and economists as well as financial analysts took part in these studies and environmentalists were not called and then they were called to give their opinion on environmental impact of the project but I believe that now the approach has to be that technical options have to be linked from the time of feasibility studies to environmental solutions in order to have sustainable solutions and we not always like it but it is much better than what we did in the past once a project has been completed and is almost in the execution phase because bad choices were made from an environmental point of view at the beginning then some mitigating solutions are sought and this is not good so I believe that this philosophy is the one that should be applied now in infrastructure projects and sectors which are so important for development let me add this Peru is a country where the mining industry is very strong and there have been conflicts because of several projects therefore it is necessary to reach understanding between all the players the community, the local government the enterprise etc the mining industry brings benefits but it also has costs it is necessary to see how you can mitigate them or cover them and in many countries it has been possible now to diversify their production to create a buoyant energy renewable energy sector and it is necessary to comply also with international standards and not demand more than you can from an enterprise companies have to follow the regulations within a legal framework but all this has to lead to benefits and the people have to see these benefits many of the conflicts for example the mining sector in countries like Peru and Chile due to the fact that people do not see the benefits they only see the costs so with intelligence we have to see how we can mitigate environmental damages and also bring benefits for everyone because now we are in a moment of climate change companies have an obligation and it is in their self interest to do business in a way which leaves their communities stronger because they are there than if they weren't there and that I think starts with being good employers paying people well working with them to grow as much as they possibly can in their careers and then investing back in the communities some people would say that's CSR corporate social responsibility I actually think it's integral to doing business in the way that long term will pay benefits including financial benefits a friend of mine who is an environmental expert of global stature years ago what should Marriott do in the environmental space philosophically what would your advice be about do we do things which are economically unwise but environmentally good and he said no no no you should be doing things which are economically in your interest because if you hold the environmental industry to that standard we will create solutions which can be replicated by businesses everywhere and by public agencies everywhere as it will make economic sense to do that I think this is one area where the government can play a role so if the free market forces because nobody is being forced to pay for the cost of pollution as an example are not making businesses pay for those costs through energy taxes or through other energy policies the plane field can be set in a way where it becomes economically in company self interest to do those sorts of steps and there are examples around the world of countries that have done this the most the country which has the highest percentage of solar produced power in the world anybody want to hazard a guess Germany has nothing to do with sunshine right it has to do with the fact that there has been a long term policy that has been focused on it and I think the only other thing and it's not a role for government but is a role for all of us as consumers we need collectively to make buying decisions in a way that commend people for doing business in the right way and we don't do that actually we go out and we buy the cheapest box of crackers in the store or we go to pay the lowest amount for a hotel room irrespective of whether or not business is done in a different way and collectively we've got to make sure as consumers that we are applauding the work that is done right I think that with this message that is positive very well so with this very positive message which is also a challenge for everyone citizens, governments etc a challenge to grow in a sustainable manner which is one of the keys to the future we are going to close the debate thank you very much all the panelists for being here and to gentlemen it's been a pleasure and thanks to you also who have followed us from the audience who are following us from the homes in this special broadcast of agenda which has been broadcast from Lima in cooperation with the World Economic Forum next week we will be broadcasting from our central studio in Berlin thank you