 Especially when I watch street fighting videos, which I'm not a fan of street fighting at all. I don't think anyone should street fight, but I'll see these videos and you'll see a bigger guy, maybe bullying a smaller guy. And I just think if that smaller guy did two months of training, he would be able to beat the bigger guy all day long. If he knew how to throw a punch, and I talk about this on my videos as well, everyone should learn how to throw a punch. Because if you can throw a punch, hopefully you never need it, but it'll come in handy. I did want to start out by talking to you guys about how you guys survived. You guys had physical gym locations doing very well. How long has it been since you saw your guys? In the heart of darkness. We saw you guys down there a long time ago. I think it was 2008, maybe 2009. It was a while ago. It's been a while, right? At least a few years, and you guys were crushing. You guys were exploding. I remember you guys were opening up new locations. It's an LA, you have to point that out. In Los Angeles, and then everything got shut down. And you guys were in probably one of the most strictly regulated places in America when it comes to, especially gyms. Gyms were the first places to close, last places to open. I'm glad to see you guys have survived, but how did you guys handle all of that? Yeah, it was horrible. I remember when the first announced it, I was like, this can't be right. I mean, everyone felt the same, like really? What? Yeah, so we had to close down. It was March 15th, and then we had hundreds and hundreds of members coming each day. So I was like, well, we need to continue to work these members out, give them workouts. So March 16th, I went live on YouTube and I was like, I'm gonna give them a workout online. So one of the first people to do it, I think it was in Los Angeles. And then we had hundreds of people training online, but obviously it's not the same. And then it kind of just dragged on and dragged on and dragged on. And then it got like really serious where months had gone by and it was like, what are we gonna do? What was the initial drop? Obviously you've gotta have some people that instantly ran in and said, I wanna cancel. You have a small, I don't know what percentage that was. And then some people were like, oh, cool, he's giving us videos so we can do this at home. So they say, what did the drop off look like? Did it like half the memberships go right away? Or like, what did it look like throughout the game? The drop off, not right away, plus people, everyone thought, oh, it's just gonna be for a week. Yeah, two weeks a week. And then like two a month people was like, well, I'm still, this $250 a month keep coming out of my account. I'm gonna have to pause this right now. It's only like the real hardcore that like really wanted to like almost see it as a contribution at that point. They're like, yeah, just keep charging me. I wanna keep supporting the gym. I know I can't come in, but that was very small. Yeah, I pay, I have three gym memberships that I still never stopped, right? I paid through the whole, and I actually still haven't been back to any of those gyms, but I continue to pay. Just I felt like being in that space and it's a small amount of money to me and stuff like that. I can help a small gym keep going. So I'm sure there's a small percentage of those people. Would you say half or like how much do you think, would you say cut right up? Yeah, I think half cut within the first two months, which was a huge massive, like I think it was like close to underground a month, like just stopped and it was like, wow. And our landlords are still like charging rent. And cause again, they thought that this was gonna, you know, iron itself out and be fine, but it wasn't. They're not just charging any rent, charging LA level rent. Wish is ridiculous. But, you know, the members like yourself and continued to pay, it was huge for us. Cause even them $250 that people were giving us, it was big cause we still had the staff to pay. This was before they were getting the unemployment. So it was very tough and, you know, we didn't know what was gonna happen with the future. And luckily, like you said, we survived it, but one of our gyms didn't survive it. We had to close down one of them, one of the locations. And we were paying like 22 grand a month rent for that location. And they were billing us every single month. Even when we were closed, we were getting these bills each month. What made you decide to let it go? And how did you keep the other one? And why that one? Like at what point did you go like, okay, we're bleeding and at this rate, we could be closed for another six months. Like what point did you go, we got to stop the bleeding. And then I imagine you laid off people and. Yeah, well, all the trainers left. But just about all of the trainers left, and a lot of the trainers were taking our clients and then training them elsewhere and getting money in the pocket, which now that's a different story. I think going into the closure, the staff at the gym, there was probably about 20 trainers on staff. And then the reopening would like down to like three. So everybody just decided, right, I'm not gonna stay on staff. I'm gonna go get the unemployment money and just train my clients outside of the gym. The whole culture and staff and the community just kind of just died. What a crazy predicament to be in like that. If you're, I mean, that's, you have to understand kind of from their perspective, you know, it's like survival, the fitness, they just lost their income. What do you expect to do? But then you got to understand from your guys, they wouldn't have those clients if you didn't provide the space for them to do it. So did that create a lot of. Oh yeah, I mean, yeah. I understood what they were doing. And to be honest, It still hurts though. I would have probably done what they had done if I was in that situation, but it did really hurt because they were like, some of them were like brothers and we were close to them. And then they were sneakily taking clients and teach them somewhere else and keeping the money. Even though at the time we said to the trainers, we're gonna give you 80% of your personal training revenue and we'll take 20% rather than the 50, 50 split. So we give them a higher percentage because they were struggling, but even then they still took them and took the 100%. Wow. Which was hard for us. What was the, at any point were you thinking we got to close them all? Wait, this isn't gonna have to end this? Yeah, we really did because the debt was building up, keep building up. And we did get some help from the government, which was great. I think we got about 250 grand overall, but that went towards wages and rent. So what they did, they said that 60% of it's got to go towards wages and 40% towards rent. So we did that, but we still ended up in a big one. Right, that only gets you, I mean, when you're doing paying 20 plus thousand a month rent, you got a staff that's probably overhead alone, 40 to $60,000 a month. So it's like they got you three months probably about you, I guess. Three or four months, which would help for the time, but not for a pandemic that goes on for over a year. Yeah. How long were places shut down in LA for? We closed down for, I think it was eight months and then they let us open for a month, but the time when we had to open, we had to have so many restrictions where it was like you had to be 12 feet apart. You had to have disinfectant, you had to have all these different cleaning supplies and those, you had to take temperatures of everyone that comes in, different waivers. So we spent a fortune on getting the gym turned around so we could actually do the classes after three weeks of that. It was like, no, no, we closed near again. But nobody was showing up with those restrictions in place too. So it was like, yes, we can finally open. Everyone's going to come back in. No one, we had this expectation that it was just going to be flooded again with people. People hesitant, huh? Despite all the social distancing and all this and we'd set it all up. A ton of work went into that, zoning things out and everything and all the disinfectant and everything and one person would show up, two people. Nobody wants to do this. I remember up here, when that all happened, they had restaurants that were like, okay, we're going to build an outdoor area. And they spent, you know, I know one business owner spent over $100,000 on building a really nice outdoor eating area only to be shut down again three weeks later. They were so furious. So it did shut down again. And then at that point, Kevin, one of the coloners in the gym went to, Tony's partner in the gym went to the city and asked if we could, we had like, I think it was like 12 parking spaces on the side. Asked if we could open that and zone it off as an outdoor gym and they allowed that. And that right there, if that option wasn't available, both gyms would have had to close. Having that outdoor space available saved it because then we started running classes outside. We built a whole turf area where the parking spaces were hung heavy bags off the outside wall. And then people started to enjoy that. They would come and do the outdoor classes. It felt a little safer. It was kind of getting things back around. Without that, it would have gone under. So just that alone was enough to at least save? Yes, that saved it. Just about save it, but we still left in a big hole. But even with the outdoor classes, up until the end of last year, people still wouldn't really come. They were still scared. Watching the news all the time. We started wearing masks. And then what was crazy is someone's mask would come down, just underneath the nose. And then we would get a massive email complaint of other members. This client's mask went down the nose. Your trainers needed to be more responsible and telling people to put the masks on. And this happened a multiple times. Not having a mask off just down past the nose. Or your trainer pulled the mask down when they were shouting directions during a class. If this happens again, I'm not coming back to the gym. We went, what the? Just hysteria. You know, it's funny, they did a study out of gyms and they found that they were not vectors of transmission. They were not any major. Well, which, look, I've been in gyms my entire life. The first place you skip when you start to feel a little sick is the gym. People don't skip going to the restaurant or going to the movies or going out. But if people feel, I'll skip the gym. So it's probably one of the reasons why. Not only that, there's also a bias that most people that go to the gym are health conscious and fit. So you have the, what is the smaller percentage of the population that even caught it or had any struggles with it. So that was the irony of the, some of the strictest laws were on gyms. When you looked at all the shit that was going on, movies being made still and restaurants still being able to operate with these ironic closed tents outside, which I thought was hilarious. They're inside out. You'd have these outside tents that were sealed with no ventilation that they could do, but then they couldn't be inside the building with the circulation and just blew my mind. Kind of going off point a little bit, but at that time, I just remember thinking like, you want everybody indoors and you don't want people going to the gyms, right? Two of the things that build immune systems and that keep any chance of keeping this thing off, pre-vaccine and all that kind of stuff, right? The two main things that are gonna help increase your chances of fighting this thing off, you're stopping people from doing, they can't go work out, they can't go outside. Like, it's just like. Yeah, well, you guys are awesome. What's up everybody? Today's giveaways maps strong. This is a strong man-inspired workout program and here's how you can win. Leave a comment below in the first 24 hours that we drop this episode. Subscribe to this channel. Turn on notifications, do all those things. If we like your comments, we'll notify you in the comments section that you got access to MapStrong for free. By the way, we will never ask you for your credit card number. We're not gonna send you to other sites. There are some scammers in the comments. So the only way you'll know you win is if Mind Pump ourselves lets you know in the comments section. Also, in this episode, we talk about Tony Jeffries boxing certification courses for coaches and we convinced them to give our listeners 15% off. So if you're interested in your trainer or coach, go to TonyJeffries.com, use the code Mind Pump. Also, if you're a gym and you wanna license their group boxing class courses, go to the same website, TonyJeffries.com. Just mention Mind Pump when you submit for an application. You can get two months for free. Also, we got the final hours for our sale this month. Map Starter 50% off. The Prime Pro Bundle 50% off. If you're interested, click on the link at the top of the description to get the discount. All right, here comes the show. Yeah, well, you guys are also on LA and I saw that in Los Angeles. They gave a lot of exemptions to like movie production. So there was one place in particular. I saw this one clip where there was like this shopping center with like coffee shops and restaurants and mom-and-pop stores all forced to shut down. But then they had, they brought in movie trailers and directors. Was that the woman that was hysterical about that? She was like crying on camera. Yeah, I remember thinking this is not. So at any point, you don't have to answer this if you don't want to, but at any point did you guys think to yourselves, let's just be like speakeasy style. Let's do this on the side, have people come in, nobody say anything. Let's do our thing. I was doing that like in terms of private training. Like the gym was closed, the doors were closed, my own private clientele, fortunately for me were kind of on the same page as me. They were like quite happy to just come in and still do the private training. So I was, yeah, behind closed doors, I was doing private training. I think we all talked about it off air. We talked about this, like, you know, that we felt so blessed that we had built something like this that allowed us to still continue. Like really our business was not affected negatively by COVID at all. We were lucky. Cause had it been just five years, previously or 10 years before, we all would have been screwed. We all say like, well, what would you do, you know? Dude, I would have definitely done stuff under the table. There's no way. I mean, I would have had to. At that point, it would have been survive. I would have the only way that I would have put food on the table or continue to pay my rent and to take care of my family. I feel responsibility to your clients and you believe in what you do and you're, you know, we're improving people's health. Totally. That was kind of the feedback loop for my clients. We're like, instead of doing two a week, I want to come in like three times a week. And then it started becoming like, can you come to the house? And then it was like, oh, my friend wants to go to, can you go to the house? And so I started, I got busier and picked up more in-home sessions. So I found myself driving around LA where everything was shut down. I could get around the city in 20 minutes instead of two hours. I was flying. That's the one silver lining. Yeah. I made more money than I've ever made during the pandemic. It was great. Yeah, so, you know, so here's an interesting thing too. I talked to some friends that own gyms that survive. Most gyms shut down. I don't remember what the number was, but I know a majority of small gyms were done, but the ones that were able to stick around when things reopened, they saw such a huge influx. And I think it's partially because the competition was kind of wiped out. Did you guys notice anything like that when things were finally, people were, okay, I'm not scared to come. We're open. Did you guys start to see like, okay, we got more interest? We didn't, not in my style. And I think people are still a little bit afraid. A lot of people were still a little bit afraid to come into the gym. So... Is it still that way right now? Not so much right now, but it was for a long time. Right now, yeah, we're taking over. We're doing well. We're not doing half as well as we were before COVID, but we're still surviving. Yeah, so that's still hurting though, in my opinion. I mean, if you haven't even got back to original numbers, I mean, saying that you're at half still, that's still... In my experience, I mean, in my opinion, you guys are the best boxing gym I've ever been to. I think to your point, what that highlighted more than anything else was this, and obviously if you were affected and you had to shut down, this is gonna come off a little wrong. But I mean, the strong businesses, the people that had solid business models survived that. And the ones that didn't, it definitely got rid of them. Now that doesn't mean that there weren't some good business models and good business operators that were dramatically affected or maybe had to shut down. I'm not saying that, but... Yeah, because who has 10 months of cash flow just sitting there? Right, but a bulk of them, a bulk of them of that percentage that had to shut down and never came back, it really, I mean, what it did is just exacerbated the problems that they already potentially had, that they were operating with low cash flow or they had a major overhead or they didn't have a long-term plan. And so that's what I think that highlighted. And you had to see how businesses were able to pivot now and find other opportunities. And so I wanna get a little bit more into your virtual side. How did you structure that and how did you deliver that and come up with that? Well, after we're doing YouTube lives, we're not getting paid for doing YouTube lives. We're just providing a service for the clients, hoping that they would stay on and continue to pay the memberships. So we needed to have a paid product and we went and used Vimeo, which was very expensive. It was like grand a month or something. So we put a load of time and energy into that, built out an on-demand platform for people to sign up for that. And we did that and it kind of flopped a little bit. That didn't do as well as we thought because when we launched that, that's when the gyms kind of reopened. So we took our foot off the ball and then the gyms closed. So yeah, we focused on that a lot, but it didn't pay off. And it's kind of what we had to do. You had to pivot, you had to do something in the fitness industry. It was successful for a lot of people, but I felt like in 2020, mid-end of 2020, all gyms started doing this. And then you have apps like Nike or even Peloton that were just killing it, crushing it. So we kind of competed with them and asked them for a higher price point to pay our bills. I see a higher price point, it was like $39 a month, compared to when they're charging $10 a month, people would rather go with them. So you guys, so after this all happened, you guys are like, let's go back to what we did before and you went back to the gyms and then the certification courses. How were the certification courses in this period? I'm assuming you couldn't really host any or... Yeah, so we saw our online certification course. This is where we teach trainers how to teach boxing and all the people. And we did like, I think in 2018, we did 19 courses around the world. Then 2019, we did 12 courses, one in this gym here. So that was booming. And then obviously 2020, we couldn't do any live courses. So we already had an online course for the boxing certification. So we kind of were just promoting that and that did well, that did pretty well. Oh, okay. Oh, interesting. So that was okay during the whole period. Yeah, the online course did kind of did pretty well during the pandemic. It probably... Did it do well enough to make up for the non-imperson or did it just did better in relative? Oh no, like we weren't earning like 100 grand a month. We needed to, you know, sustain the gym. But we were earning enough to make a little bit of money for ourselves. What would, if something like that happened again, is there anything you would do different? Or you guys, did you change anything just in case? Or is it like, okay, that's a one-off, we'll never have to worry about that again? Yeah, you're talking about if the pandemic happened again. Yeah, or something like that, right? Cause it's, I think for a lot of people it made it, I mean, I know it did for me, like man, we're really vulnerable, or some businesses are really vulnerable to, you know, just stuff like this where they could just tell you, you can't do business anymore. Yeah. If it happened again right now, I don't know if our gym would be able to survive. It's, of course, earlier was like we mentioned that it was terrible. And a big, one of the hardest things was we lost like all of our stuff and it takes time to train up your stuff and all of that and find the right people in LA is very hard to find trainers. So to get them and then lose them and start that again as well, it's tough. Did you guys ever think about leaving and going somewhere that was a little less restrictive in terms of location and like starting it all over again? Yeah, because No, we didn't think about leaving because again, we didn't know when this was gonna end. It could have been next week, they're gonna change the rules they were changing the rules every other week, something was happening. So it was like, are we gonna open next week? Are we gonna open next week? And we were just hoping that that would happen. So it wasn't like, let's just pack up and go somewhere else and try and get a new clientele. Cause we had a community and a membership there that we thought, you know? I think we've always valued like the digital side of the gym. Like, cause we've had the academy since 2015, 2016. And then once that started kicking off as live courses, we quickly thought, how can we get this online? And then the same with the classes now, it's like the Box and Burn class has been really successful for us, won awards and all that. So we've always had that kind of mindset. How can we take this online? How can we put this in other gyms? How can we digitize our products? Tony's always great at that. Always thinking about how to digitize and put things online. So I think if it was to happen again, I feel like we're in a spot now where we're probably even stronger online. I know Tony is through YouTube obviously, but I think our products in terms of what we're doing with the licensing and the academy, the fact that they're pretty solid online now and then digitally based products kind of safeguards us a little bit. So if there's any gym owners listening or personal trainers, I would encourage them like safeguard yourself if you are worried about something like that happening again. I'm just not gonna guarantee it's not gonna happen again is just pay attention to the digital side of your product and your business. Well, I was gonna say you kind of mentioned your visual or your virtual training side is not being initially successful, but don't you feel like the work that went into that in terms of like capturing a lot of that content and you guys being able to kind of repurpose a lot of stuff, getting you in the mindset of how to replicate a lot of what you guys do physically, but virtually now. In terms of that being valuable and maybe opening up other ideas of how to scale what you guys currently do. I mean, did this unlock other ideas, I guess in a sense in terms of how you guys are thinking about your business being online. Yeah, yeah, it definitely did. And if it did happen again, we would focus more on the online side of stuff. Of course, like you see, we've already got that built out and it will be just to promote and push that. But what 2020 did was really give me the opportunity to create more time and start creating content to help people with my YouTube channel. And if it wasn't for the pandemic, I wouldn't have blew up on YouTube. Let's talk about that for a second. So what did you do on YouTube that what did you first start doing there that really started to get some attraction? So being consistent and I've posted on YouTube boxing education and you know, I've seen all the other boxing education on YouTube and I was like, this is it, this is it. I was like, there's a gap in the model and I do this way better than them. I'm creative, I've got a creative brain, I know how to retain people on videos. So, you know, I start doing that and posting. And then in 2020, it just blew up and was the one video in particular that you could recall where you're like, oh wait, this is the model or this one's really starting to get traction. Yeah, it was three realistic combinations out on a heavy bag, shot on an iPhone with a little microphone. Isn't that funny? So funny. And then that video absolutely blew up and I'm like, I need to do this again and then it's hard to do it again, you know? But then that just started a snowball effect and I was like, wow, look at this and I just stopped being consistent with it and then we hired a team to help us with the video edits and everything else and I'll start investing money into this and that's when it just changed everything. Yeah, now when you, so we do this, right? If we have something that does way better than other pieces of content, we'll sit down and try and figure out what it was. Was it what we were talking about? Was it how we were communicating it? The way it was edited? Maybe there was a particular angle that we took that really resonated. Were you able to take that video, deconstruct it and say, okay, I can see why this did so well and this is how I should maybe repeat it. Was there something about that video that you were able to pull from? There was and I think you saw this and you can do all what you said and do another version of it but then it'll flop, right? Have you seen that before? Yeah, that's true. If I do this, it'll work, if I do this, it'll work and then you do it and it's like, oh, it didn't work but then you'll do something else and then that there will blow up and yeah, just being consistent and trying new things and trying what you said, trying to learn from the videos that did well and you'll do well. I like your videos that show like how to, this is when I watched a video where you like, how to actually like, which punch throws is more powerful or whatever and you're actually showing people, this is how you throw a punch that really generates power. And a lot of people have no idea, especially guys on the street, if I hit someone this way, it's gonna be real and you're just educating them. I feel like that to the average person, easy and resonates and it goes, oh, that makes a lot of sense. It's very valuable. Well, it's like the one he said that went viral. That's pretty basic information I think. Which is I think we've learned the same, same legislation. I mean, I think one of the more viral videos we did was the push up and pull up one which actually was interesting for us that that went viral a year after it was released. So we had did it a year ago but for some reason when the pandemic hit, everybody was looking up how to do a proper push up and pull up and we had some stupid clip. We didn't have haircuts or anything. Yeah, no, it was terrible. It was a terrible video and it might have done way, way better if there was actually some effort into it. Wait, did you have the hammer mustache on that one? I think so. And your hair, remember, you had a long wolf. You had a bum, you had your beard all grown out and your hair was all crazy and wild. That's why maybe, I gotta try and do that. But yeah, but we tried to recreate it a bunch of times and then nothing happened. That's the amazing thing about YouTube why I think it's the best platform out there because you do a video, if you do a video on Instagram, five days later if it's gone, do a video on YouTube, a year later it's getting picked up. Like I was just showing Glenn one of my videos that today, one of my videos, it's about how to defend yourself in a street fight. I posted that a year ago and in the last 48 hours, it's at like 150,000 views. And that was posted like a long time ago. We've had several situations. So we had a big fitness article, one of the very first video that reached millions of views for us was a fitness article wrote about and referenced our plank. And that was like almost a year later, Joe Rogan talked about how to do a proper Turkish getup. I think at that time, we were the only like good video on Turkish getup. So that went viral on a time. Yes, that's cool about YouTube is you kind of never know like it just, if all of a sudden a wave of people searching a topic and you have a good video related to that. I kind of see it as like, you put in a book in a library, you create your content, you put it in the library and then you let it sit there and then over the next like five, 10, 20 years, people are just looking for that book and then they find it. That's right. Like you said, with Instagram, it's like you put it up there and no one's going through your Instagram feed what you posted three, four months ago. I got to ask you so as someone who's been a trainer for a long time, right, over two decades, it's hard for me not to notice things like biomechanics and form and technique. And I mean, I could see someone running, I could see someone working out and it's like, you know, it's like, you know a language that is, that other people don't know. So I understand what's going on very easy when I watch it. For someone like you who's a obviously a high level boxer when you watch, cause there's lots of videos on YouTube of street fights and this guy versus that guy. And oh, the bouncer took this guy. When you're watching this kind of stuff, are you watching, that must happen to you where you watch it and you go, oh my gosh, look at that. That punches you. He should have wrote me. He's like, you wrote him a letter telling me to punch him a month ago. That was so, does that, that happens to you then? Yeah, I see it all the time. And especially when I watch street fighting videos, which I'm not a fan of street fighting. I don't think anyone should street fight, but I'll see these videos and you'll see a bigger guy, you know, maybe bullying a smaller guy. And I just think if that smaller guy did two months of training, he would be able to beat the bigger guy all day long. If he knew how to throw a punch, and I talk about this on my videos as well, everyone should learn how to throw a punch. Because if you can throw a punch, hopefully you never need it, but it'll come in handy. So how can you punch? Yeah, I don't know, maybe. Do you feel really that confident? I mean, that's a pretty big statement. That's really interesting that you could say that, that it just takes about two months of like good discipline. And the person who has learned how to punch in say over two or three months time could really outclass someone who outweighs them by 50 to 100 pounds in a street fight. Wow, 100%. 100%, if you can learn how to throw a correct punch, which doesn't take long, you know, you'll beat, you can beat anyone, no matter if they're 100 pounds heavier than you. Yeah, if you're full up correct punch with a correct technique. I would have never believed this years ago until I did box with a boxer. I didn't box with him, but he was showing me had a punch and hit a heavy bag. He was a 140 pound guy and the snap and power that came out of his hands. That wasn't me, was it? No. I couldn't believe it, you know? I couldn't believe that someone could hit the, but you know, I did jiu-jitsu as it growing up. And I know what jiu-jitsu guys would come in, big strong guys, whatever, and they just didn't know what they were doing. It was like, you know, if you're good, you could submit them while eating a sandwich. It was like that easy. So what are the big mistakes that people make when they throw a punch? The swing that comes from right back all the way over. Yeah, and the hips and core, the whole, the breath, and you know. What do you mean, hold the breath? Like, what do you want to do? Let it out. Yeah, yeah. It's like you would be doing when you're lifting weights, you know, you would breathe, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's funny you talk about jiu-jitsu. I've just done a video where I did, I did 30 sessions of jiu-jitsu on day one. I sparred with a purple belt who was 50 pounds lighter than us. How'd you like that by the way? 140 pound, right? How'd you feel on the ground with a guy who knows what he's doing? Me, and then 30 sessions later, I sparred him again. So I'm like, I'm pretty strong. I'm like, you're a fit guy. 190 pounds, I'm pretty after that, I'm pretty strong. And I'm like, he's skinny, he's small. I'm like, really? Come on, really? He destroyed us, he threw us everywhere. He could have done, he could have really, really seriously hurt us on the ground with this guy. Cause he knows the techniques, you know? And it was amazing. I think you have for three days. So I think about seven times in four minutes, and he was taking it easy. And in 30, after 30 sessions, and I really, really worked hard. He submitted me one time. So I progressed a lot. You know what it is? You're gonna love this because you're a boxer. There was an old quote, and I think I'm getting the people right, but it was Henzo Gracie. He's a Gracie, so Jiu-Jitsu guy. And of course everybody knows who Mike Tyson is. And somebody asked him, could you beat Mike Tyson in a fight? And he said, yeah, yeah. I think I could beat him in a fight. And he goes, oh, I don't know, man. Mike Tyson's a lion. And he goes, that's true. He is a lion. He goes, but I'm a shark, and I'll bring him into the water. So meaning I'll put him in the place where he doesn't know what he's doing. Which for a boxer, like if you were gonna fight a wrestler, if he tried to stand with you, you'd have your way with him. But if you're on the ground, like with the Jiu-Jitsu wrestler, and then now it's in their world. And it's basically just, they don't know what to do. You make a bunch. So in 30 days, what you learned was maybe you didn't become the great Jiu-Jitsu guy, but you at least knew how not to drown. You know what I mean? You learned in that 30 days that it's like, in order to conquer somebody, it's about technique. And that goes exactly back to what you were saying with the street fighter and the small guy, the big guy. It's like, if the small guy knows how to throw a punch, it's the technique that wins that exchange. So okay, what about, here's a defensive question. So if I feel like, or I know I'm about to get a punch thrown at me, how do I, what's the best way to do it? Besides not being there, obviously, by the way, what's the best way to defend yourself or block a punch that's coming at you? I would, it's like put your hands up and step back. Like, you know, if your hands are here and step back, so it's not a clean, we're through. Yeah, create some distance and move back. Footwork's the best defense. Yeah, footwork's the best defense. Oh, okay. If you think, and I've talked about this when I'm teaching boxing, it's like, you can slip, you can roll, you can block with your hands on your head, but better than all of that is a step back because you're not in range to get hit. And if you're all getting hit while you're stepping back, it's kind of taking this thing out of the punch. So putting your hands up and stepping back. Now you say footwork and you say step back. Now I'm thinking average person is at a step back, but I also know enough to know that there's way more to footwork than just, like I know how to move. What are common mistakes people make with footwork in an altercation in that way? Bringing your feet together, because if you think, you need to keep your feet apart in a wider stance, because if you bring your feet together, you're off balance and you can't really throw a punch if you're feet together. If you've got a little wider stance, you can throw a punch. If you know how to throw a punch, that's why I recommend everyone learn how to throw a punch and it doesn't cost money to do this, you can find it on YouTube. What are the most basic steps to that, to throw in a punch? It starts with your stance and your body movement. Yeah, okay. Bend your hips fully extending your arm on a straight punch. Staying relaxed, exhaling. I don't know video on your YouTube channel years ago with Justin. I remember that. He was doing the basics. Yeah, that's great. Where should you hit some? Okay, so you wanna defend yourself. Please stop me if I'm getting boring here. You wanna defend yourself. I feel like this is gonna happen. I'm in a situation, my back's against the wall, whatever. I gotta throw the first punch and I wanna make it as effective as possible. Besides, no one had to throw a punch. Where should I aim? If you aim at the chin, but if you're in that situation where it's gonna kick off and your adrenaline's pumping, you can't be like, I'm gonna hit him right on the chin. Yeah, it's hard to think. It's hard to think, just aim for the face. Just the big face. Yeah, just the big face. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. But another thing, and one of my biggest YouTube videos ever, I talked about how to end a fight in seconds. And I say, it doesn't matter if you're fighting someone the size of Dwayne Johnson or John Cena. If you're a smaller guy, you'll be able to end this fight if you hit them right in the solar plexus right there. I don't know if anyone's ever been hit here. Yes, I have. It's terrible. You can't breathe. You're on the floor. And it doesn't have to be that hard. If someone hits you, they're hit. So would you say that it's easier to get somebody there than to knock them out on the chin? It probably is, but I think more people would throw the chin. Of course. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Naturally, you would think hit them in the face, hit them in the chin, or the nose, even make their eyes water or something. But you're saying, hit them in the solar plex. Hit them in the solar plex, it's game over. If Justin, you'll punch me there now, and I'm not expecting that, I'm done with it, I'm done for a few minutes. It's all about the expectation. If you get caught there while you're not breast for it, there's nothing you can do. Horrible. So why don't you put like a kidney punch or a liver punch, I think. Yeah, I mean, in a street fight, I wouldn't be really trying to throw hooks to the body. But in a boxing fight, if you've ever been hit around the side there, it's just like there. It sucks. It's horrible. It's legs, everything, and it's horrible. At one point, because I was training in Jiu-Jitsu, I would hang around with fighters, like who actually fought in either cage fighting or Jiu-Jitsu tournaments or even boxers. And at one point I was at a bar and we're all hanging out and there was a guy who was drunk, who was kind of starting or whatever. And I remember just how calm some of the guys I was with were in that situation. Whereas normally other people would feel threatened, maybe want to fight back or whatever, but it was so calm and they're like, hey, no big deal with me, let me buy you a drink or whatever. After we were done, we went outside and I said, it's really wild that, I know how aggressive you guys are in the cage or the ring, but in there, you had no problem with this guy saying certain things or whatever. And they said, if a five-year-old comes up to you and says they want to beat you up, like how do you feel about it? Oh, you just feel confident. You just feel ultimately, is that what you feel like when you walk around? Normally it really is, it's confidence. And I feel confidence to go anywhere. I'm not really afraid of fighting anyone, although I never ever would want to fight, but when you learn how to punch and defend yourself or learn Jiu Jitsu, I think you get this certain sort of confidence. And if you think about Jiu Jitsu, you've got a guy on you trying to choke you and strangle you or box so much, what's on punching you in the face? These are uncomfortable situations and to be successful in these uncomfortable situations, you've got to get comfortable. So learning how to be comfortable, your confidence just goes through the roof. No, you guys, I mean your classes are structured for like more of a fitness kind of cardiovascular activity, but do you have any cool stories about like, because you teach a lot of like legit technique in terms of like self-defense and boxing. That's the big difference between you guys. You guys actually teach technique. It's not just burning calories, right? So you're actually learning the skill. I mean, have you had any kind of instances where a member has come back and been like, man, this has been useful this weekend. It really got me out of the jam. Or get a chance to actually pursue as a career. Yeah, or the weekend, exactly. I mean, you've probably heard the quote. What is it? The Mike Tyson quote, everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face. You know, we have a lot of members, like they love it and they get addicted to it. And like, no, no, I want to box. I want to get in the ring and we're talking people in Los Angeles might be a little bit softer than Mike. Mike, slow your arm. And then they get punched in the face. They're like, I'm cool. I'm just going to come to my box and burn glasses. Yeah, yeah. Totally. All right, get a mouthpiece on. Get a head on another. They're a little bit nervous and they're in there and say, all right, and then jab in the face and turn in the wheel. And it's like, yeah. I remember, so I actually had an experience like this. So I, for like a year almost, my buddy and I like, we hit pads for like training. And it was just all for getting in shape. That's it. And very minimal technique. And then I got to get in a ring with like a real fighter. It's much smaller than me. Amateur dude, nothing special. But I mean, just putting the mouthpiece and like learning to breathe, I mean, that heightened my heart rate. I was just trying to breathe and focus on that while I'm getting punched in the face. I was like, fuck this. I don't want nothing to do with this. Like quickly it's something that I thought I was really passionate about that I was doing for a year. Like, oh, this is cool. Filling my punches, getting harder. And then. I think like, but that's what I love about boxing is like the minute that you do spar for the first time, it really teaches you a lot about yourself. Because like the minute that you get punched, your instant reaction tells you whether this is for you or not. Like, if you're like, if you get jabbed or you catch a punch for the first time with head guard and mouthpiece in and you're like, and you cower away and you're like, oh, I don't like that. Then it's not for you, right? Whereas other people, you get jabbed the first time. Oh, let's go. And it fires you up and you want to just like give me, give me more. You're not getting away with that, you know? So it's like, it teaches you a lot about your mentality. But I don't just like you said there about you had the mouthpiece in and you were uncomfortable and all that. Imagine if you continue to do that and you did it for six months and you got really comfortable doing that. That's what I mean about being comfortable in this uncomfortable situation. Your confidence walking on any bar anywhere like you'd be through the roof. Yeah, you know what surprised me? I used to train this old, this guy. He was 70, I want to say he was 74 when I trained him. Businessman, but he also in his youth boxed a lot. He was a boxer and then he managed boxers for a bit. But 74 year old man, and I'll never forget, you know, one day I was at the grocery store and I didn't know he was behind me and he kind of hits me like a little back of the head and I'm like, this guy's hands is so heavy, you know? And I told him that. I said, I know you were playing around. I said, but I swear to God, if you hit me just a little harder, you would have seen stars. And he said the last thing a boxer ever loses is his power. Is that true? Yeah, it really is. And that's what we see in boxing. The first thing that goes is your timing. Yeah, speed probably right. Your timing and your speed. Like your timing of seeing punches come. But yeah, you never lose your power. But another thing about getting hit, which is crazy is like the more you do boxing, the more you get hit, the more you get used to it. So let's just say now, Adam, you put a boxing glove on, you punch me like this hard in the face, I probably wouldn't feel it. But if I did that to you, you'd be like, oh, cause you're not used to it. So you get used to getting punched in the face. That being said, I think it's terrible. Anyone getting punched in the face, you never get punched in the face. Are you gonna have your daughter's box or are you gonna teach them? Definitely not. I'll teach them how to box, but when it comes to the head trauma, that comes with boxing and getting punched in the head, it's really, really not worth it. And I don't recommend anyone doing head sparring unless you're gonna have a fight. Shoulders, you can shoulder sparring, body sparring, all day long, but what's the point? Maybe the boys, they try to date them. You can practice with them. Yeah. That's the only capital of Thailand. Yeah. In Thailand, Bangkok. 10 years from now is gonna be really interesting. Yeah, it really is. That's gonna be a good deal. With the new venture now and moving into this kind of real, like you guys are going all in on the virtual space, is there any thoughts to letting go of the brick and mortar, letting go of the gym and actually going all in on the certifications and then the digital boxing courses and everything? I think we'll keep that there. My business partner in the gym, Kevin Watson, he's kind of running that where I'm focusing more on our other side, the licensing side, where I'm getting boxing classes into gyms with our other product, our connect product. And that's kind of what I'm passionate about. I'm not passionate about running a brick and mortar gym anymore, but I wanna help gym owners have boxing and I wanna really help as many people as I can with boxing for fitness and this new product that we've created, I think we're really gonna do. Now, how do you go? Okay, so we know Kevin and so that's nice. He's able to run that. How does the partnership work between all three of you guys? Because you're the three that I know of that there's nobody else, right? Yeah, we've just got another partner in Kerry, who's kind of a partner in the gym as well. Okay. So like Kevin and Kerry are running the gym space. Me and Glenn is more on the licensing and the academy space. Now, will they get a cut of any of this stuff that's going on or is that they just get the gym stuff? A little bit, a little bit, yeah. But with the academy and the education, that's just me and Glenn who's doing that. And then the licensing product, yeah, we kind of using boxing burn name, letting people license our successful classes out to their gym. So, yeah, the gym will get a little cut of that. So the idea really is you have a course and a class and you're gonna be able to offer this to gym owners, teach their trainers and then they'll be able to run these courses, these classes. These classes, yeah. So it's basically a turn case solution. So if you're a gym in West Virginia and you've got no idea at all how to put a boxing class in, but you know how popular boxing is and you want to add a boxing fitness class, well now we can give you everything you need to successfully and smoothly add a boxing fitness class to your facility with all the education, all the programmed workouts that's digitally delivered to you, all the marketing materials and everything you need. Now originally, I thought it was very similar to like the Les Mills kind of model, but I actually think it's more like F45 or Orange Theory that you guys can literally be kind of hands off because I know Les Mills, you have to come in to the studio, you have to train them and then they actually have to teach a course where you guys are providing the digital assets. So basically the trainer just has to throw it up on the TV like at F45 or like at Orange Theory does where they're just kind of keeping the class moving and stuff like that, but the instructing is actually coming from you guys. Yeah, exactly. We know what works in this space. We've been doing it since 2012 and we know what doesn't work. So with our program workouts, we know that the great workouts and we teach the trainers how to teach them successfully but we've done over the years and so far the gyms that we're in are seeing great results from it. Now, how many locations do you guys have that you're running this up? We're in nine different locations right now in three different countries. So it's like for anyone in the world but we've kind of just soft launched it. This is kind of the first time we've talked about it on a big platform. Yeah. With the other, because there's a lot of boxing cardio classes and workout class, like when you look at those, what did you see that you said, I want to do one that's different? What do they do that's wrong? The first thing for us was like, you touched on F45, what they're doing with the interactive element and being able to see what you need to be doing in a class. I think it's really important and really innovative and great but there was nothing in that realm for boxing fitness. So like you touched on boxing fitness classes, they're not really that well programmed. You're expected to just quickly learn eight punches in one minute and then you're in the class. So that form goes out the window. No one's really understanding correct boxing techniques. So we want to bring like that authenticity and like correct boxing technique to the fitness space, which we've done successfully with a brick and mortar but adding that interactive component where the members can see the form, the combinations on the screen. So they're concentrating on what they have to throw and when they have to throw it, they see in the visual, the form's going to be better. They're going to get more out of it and there's the strength and conditioning component too, which they're also following along in the classes as well. So I just think having that visual for a boxing fitness class is huge and that's something that we saw didn't really exist. No, this is originally what made me fall in love with your guys' business model. I mean, all of us have experience in big box gyms for decades and I'm very guilty of this too of learning a few combinations on the pads and the next thing you're doing, I'm doing it with all my clients because they love it. There's no doubt clients that get introduced to hitting pads, they absolutely love it. But when I think back of like all the trainers that I saw doing that, including myself, like nobody had proper technique. Nobody was really throwing. We were all doing it for like, oh, it's cardio and it's fun. So there's this huge opportunity for someone to come in that knows how to coach to you. And I see the same thing at like, so you have your de-thrones, your rock boxes, you have these classes and they don't put the effort into teaching even the coaches. So you have coaches that are up there maybe running these classes and they don't wanna throw a punch. I have a buddy who owns one of those franchise, two of those franchises and he can't throw a punch in his life, depending on it. He's a meathead. He plays football and he lifts weights and then I see him throw a punch in like, and I know I can't throw a great punch. He really can't throw a punch. And yet here he is teaching a whole course of people how to do it. So I know there's massive opportunity for you guys to help people. That was kind of the ignition for the academy which we started in late 2015 and really kicked off in 2016 was we were like saw a lot of PTs and coaches trying to teach general population boxing and doing pad work. And we were just like horrified about what we would see like cubes, like wide angles. We've seen this four guy down at Venice Beach when me and Glen were out there. I think we were having a few cocktails and he was a big, juke-said guy, massive juke-said guy and he had these mitts on and a little petite lady. And he was like, come on, she was like really smashing her hands in. I was thinking, she's gonna get injured. And Glen was like, do you know what? If he brought his elbows in and he went back on the resistance, he'd actually be not bad. And I was like, yeah, you're probably right there. And I was like, ah, let's start teaching people how to do this. The coaches are doing more work than the boxer. You're not like they're doing this. The boxer's just kind of going like that. It's like the wrong way around. They're hitting their hands. And what people don't realize is with mitt work specifically, there's a huge amount of technique, a lot of timing and that does come with experience and doing it. It's a beautiful thing to see when you see it done right. There's a rhythm and flow to both of them. It's very addictive for the coaches too. Once you start building combinations and you get that timing and chemistry down with the people you're working with, it's great, it's great modality. It's similar to what we see in the gym in the sense that some people will treat like strength training as just a workout rather than it's a skill. Like squatting is a skill. Rowing is a skill. Pressing is a skill. But people, they think, well, if I just get sweaty and tired and sore, well, that's the same thing. It's not because if you do the skill right, you get a lot of value. If you don't, you might as well jump in place because you're doing kind of the same thing. 100%. It must be like that with hitting mitts or practicing combinations or doing a boxing class. Yeah. You're gonna get like way more out of it if you're throwing punches with correct technique. Rotate in your core, using your legs for rolls and moving your feet. That's another thing with mitt work as well. You see a lot of it on Instagram and it's very fast and flashy and it looks cool, but it's all in place. Like right, just right here. Like that. It's like, add a little bit of movement and footwork into it and that person's gonna get 10 times more out of this session. So that's just social media mitt work. That's not real. That's how you heard somebody refer to it as happy pads. Happy pads. Next time you see this, anyone listening, next time you see one of them fancy flashy combinations, just cover your thumb over the boxer, right? And then just look at the mitt person and you'll just see them just like doing this with all their hands moving, how it's in forward. Oh my God, I would have never caught that. So literally, they're not just throwing their hands everywhere. But you know what, we'll make them fun of that. And the way we look at it is the client's getting a good, if it's for fitness, the client's getting a good workout. They're not trying to be a boxer. They're enjoying it, they're getting confidence. So yeah, we're hitting on a little bit. We laugh about it, but I'm for it. If as long as they're helping someone and they're reducing the boxing, yeah, I'm kind of. Well, let's back to Sal's analogy. It's like how we look at the gym thing. I like, you don't ever want to discourage somebody from getting into the gym because they're not using the gym properly. It's like, hey, you're here. At least you're putting the mitts on. So, but I get it. But it's still like nails on the chalkboard for a professional in that area. But I do want to say this, and I'd love your input on this, okay? Technique with exercises is there's a few different reasons why you want good technique. One is you get better results. But the other one is you minimize the risk of injury. Like a proper squat done by somebody who can do it properly, who has good strength and mobility, the proper strength and prerequisite mobility to do it. I mean, you're not gonna get hurt. If you do everything right, it's appropriate. You're not gonna get hurt. I'm assuming proper boxing technique isn't just because it makes you effective at knocking someone out. It's also because it keeps you from hurting yourself. If you throw a punch wrong. Look, I learned, I know this. I go throw a baseball as hard as you can. If you don't throw it with good technique, you don't have the prerequisites, you know, strength. Your shoulder gets sore afterwards. So I'm assuming the same thing is true when you're practicing boxing, even if you're just punching the air. And on the coaching side too, if you're catching punches. That's why, that's what probably the biggest thing about our academy is like reducing risk of injury on the coaching side. If you wanna take clients, you wanna, you know, make people punch harder. As your clients punch harder, your technique on the mix has gotta be even better too. So same thing applies for coaches, catching punches, reduces. Have you guys had coaches and trainers who've taught other boxing cardio type classes and then they go learn from you guys and then they do it your way and they tell you. Yeah, all the time we get them coming along who've done this and you know, I always prefer to work with someone who's got no experience because they've got no bad habits. Bringing someone in with bad habits. The same with a client. If a client comes to the gym and they've been boxing for three years but they've been at some gym that's teaching them boxing to the beat and the habits is terrible and they can't get out with the bad habits and it's kind of the same with coaches. You know, what's funny we get coaches who's taught professional boxers come and work with us and you know, they learn a lot from us. But at first the thing, well, how can these guys teach me something new? And it is because teaching someone how to box for a fight and teaching someone how to box for fitness, it's kind of two different things. Oh, interesting. Two totally different worlds. Yeah, two different worlds. Like if you think about this, if a middle-aged lady came into my professional boxing gym where I trained and worked with my trainer and she threw a bad jab each year, what the fuck was that? Bring that back to your face. What are you doing? What's this? Like, they don't know how to speak to people. Just get frustrated. Yeah, what was that? Oh, this is bullshit. And she's out the door crying. She's not coming back every game, you know? But that's why I feel like it's better to turn a fitness professional who knows how to talk to clients into a boxing fitness trainer than a former boxer or a boxing coach, you know? Oh yeah, you're 100% right. Yeah, because I would expect completely different culture and attitude. That's the exact same experience that we have with coaches and trainers. I mean, it took me half my career to figure this out but I would rather have a kid with no experience so I get to mold into a great trainer than some guy who's got 10 years experience, he's been doing it his way forever and now he's gonna come into my gym and my system and stuff like that and we do things totally different. Like, we're constantly butting heads and I have to break all his bad habits and a lot of times it doesn't happen. Yeah, and those clients value you more in the long term too because you taught them from the ground up, you kind of gave them that education as well. Totally. Another thing as well is we're giving coaches like systems too, which is something that's I think invaluable is like Tony said, they'll come from boxing backgrounds or even fitness backgrounds and they'll be like, they don't have a system to teach someone for the first time. So it's like, you get someone coming into your classes or your gyms and they're like, I wanna box first time, you know? Like, what do I teach them? Like, what order would I teach them? What do I teach them first? And it could be different every time and it used to be like that at our gym. We would just kind of make it up as we go along for the first couple of years which was super busy, dialed in that system. Ah, this is working. Okay, this is working. This is what's bringing people back in. Now we've got it down. It's the same every single time someone comes in for the first time. Is the order of what you teach when you're teaching a class, does that make a difference? Or can people just be like, oh, I know how to do mitts and shadow boxing and I'll just throw it in there, wherever. Like, does that make a big difference? You said systems, why does that make a difference? Why would you want that? Because if all your, say for your example, you're a fitness director or a gym owner, right? And you're running boxing classes and you've got two or three coaches teaching your boxing classes and then one class, he's teaching them this and then the next time they come in, they go to the second trainer and then they go, oh, you came last time, I'm gonna teach you this. And they're like, oh, well, that guy told me to do it this way. And this guy told me to throw the hook this way. It's like, that's why you need systems so it's consistent so they get the same information, the repeat information. Obviously the classes and the programs can be varied up but when you're teaching people from the ground up, the systems is key and that's what we've proud ourselves with the Academy is we're teaching these coaches a system so then when they bring on new clients, they've got that confidence to then go and teach the same thing over and over again and we've proven that it works. Like, if you teach them the system in this order and use these specific cues, they're gonna feel confident, they're gonna come back, they're gonna understand it better and that's kind of why we've had success with the Academy, I think. Yeah, one of the things we liked most and Adam touched on this about what you guys did with your gyms was that you guys had, there was technique, people learned some technique and skill, it wasn't just a workout, which if you just wanna move, that's fine too but as a business owner, first off as a trainer, I like that there's technique because there's authenticity behind it and I'm obviously with what I teach, technique is very important so I would imagine that with whatever you guys teach, being experts in that field, that's gonna be very important as well but as a business owner, I thought to myself, man, a customer coming in and just throwing their hands in the air to music versus learning, actually learning, like, oh, this is like the proper position for a jab, this is how I throw a straight, this is how I throw a hook, or this is the positioning for it, they leave with something more than just sweating and I felt at the time this would offer more value and you guys are showing that. Yeah, yeah, you're learning a new skill, again, it comes back to that conference as well, once you've learned that new skill, ups the conference and if I went into a gym and I've seen the boxing program or the boxing classes and I've seen everyone just throwing wild, crappy punches to the beat, I'm like, this is not great, if you went into a gym and you come out of a gym and you see all the clients, I mean, they're all not amazing but they're all trying to throw real boxing, form and technique, it's a lot better. So with classes like yours, I've seen other boxing classes and what the instructor typically does is walk around and try to get everybody to go harder. Go harder, go faster, come on, you can go, you can do it. Your guys' instructors are correcting form as they walk around. Exactly, yeah, so what I see, if you can't do something slow and correct. Don't do it fast. Yeah, exactly, and it's the same with throwing punches, I'm moving your feet, if you can't do it slow, don't do it fast. But yeah, obviously we wanna get them a good workout so we'll encourage them to punch a little bit harder but yeah, it's all about good form and techniques. You learn that skill. But I think the main thing is, and what we tell our trainers is, we need to make sure that the clients have fun because they can learn a box like Floyd Mayweather, but if they didn't enjoy the session, didn't have fun, they're not gonna come back. They could have a great workout where they can't walk when they're exhausted, but again, if they didn't enjoy the workout, they're not gonna tell their friends about a posture on social media. So the most important thing is to enjoy it and have a great workout. Yeah, and we're trying to really pull away from this, like go till you drop mentality. You know, we always had a reputation in the early days, like the class was really hard. It was an hour long and we were proud ourselves on members being exhausted, but like kinda steering more to like smarter training now where if you do a box and burn class, whether it's at box and burn itself or at one of the gyms that we're licensing to, you're gonna get a smart 45 minute workout where you're gonna enjoy it. You're gonna burn calories and get a great workout. You're gonna learn something along the way, but we have it programmed where you can do that like three, four times a week. Like the goalier isn't to just blast you on Monday and then you can't walk for three days. It's like, that's not good for a gym when the members can't come back in for two or three days. Are you guys any good at boxing on Oculus yet? Oh, man, I am. It's fun, isn't it? Are you good? Yeah, have you played it? Hell yeah. Oh, man. So I can do advanced four guys in a row. Put them down. That's my claim to fame right now. So he can box for reels now, at least. He told me so. I think it's pretty real. Yeah, it's amazing. So at the beginning of the year, I lost weight by doing that. Yeah, so I was using it as cardio. Yeah, I lost as well. That's about 20 minutes of like intense cardio. Are you as good on Oculus as you were in real life? I think I'm better. You know why? I can take better punches. So I wanna hear your critique on it because I was, so that game is what made me go buy the Oculus goggles because I was so impressed with the realism of it. It's insane, man. Yeah, for somebody with your experience because now it's really in your world. Does it feel pretty? I mean, obviously it's not like fighting a person, but would you say it's... The reason why it's realistic is because the harder you punch, the more damage it does, which is great. And then as well, if you're punching them and the blob on it and hit them to the body, you drop the hands and then come over the top, which I was blown away with. I was like, wow, this is real. So it's making me think and have fun and I absolutely loved it. What's crazy, right? I reached out to the creator of this game. On LinkedIn, I was like, mate, this is amazing. You've done a great, great job with this. I'm a big fan. I was kind of hoping that I would get a sponsorship from a YouTube channel. And he responded like, wow, Tony Jeffries, I can't believe you're sending me this message. We used a lot of your videos for the techniques. No way. And I was like, what? No way. That's amazing. Oh, it's great. Now, why don't you like it? You're like, damn, this is accurate. So that big blonde guy that I've got to feel and he's maybe a bit after me. Are there two player options on that? Not yet, but he told me that they've developed a thrill of the fight to what's going to be a lot more realistic. And he said he's going to give me first access to that one. I mean, the Oculus goggles, in my opinion, are worth it just for that game. Yeah. Could you imagine putting them on and you get to box? Tony Jeffries. We're going to sell that for you. I'm so glad it's got your stamp of approval because I was so blown away by it. I mean, I told everybody about it after I got it. I was just like, this thing is so... You know what it was too, and I don't know about your experience, but the last time I tried anything VR-wise was probably years ago, and the technology was so chitty back then. It's all black and green pixels. And I thought it was going to look weird enough. But boy, when I put that thing on, I was like, whoa, I feel like I'm here. And just like you said, the game was so responsive. If you get away with a couple of jabs, they figured out and they put their hands up and you got to figure it out and move. And then in between rounds, I'm like sitting down. Yeah. Yeah. And I was like, Tony, what the hell are you doing? Yeah. Just sat there in the corner with some goggles on going. Yeah. What are you watching? I could get four fights. After four fights, I am done. And I am absolutely done. And I am drenched in sweats. It's great cardio. So good. I'll use the controller. The first time I tried it, it was so realistic. I was like loading up. And then, boom, I was in the ring in some gym in New York or whatever. I'm like, oh, getting ready to go like this. And I'm like looking at old guys sat around the ring. And the next thing's like, ding, ding, ding. And then the guy's like, right here. And I'm like, yeah, it's like realistic. You can't switch off for a second. Yeah, that's pretty awesome. Okay, so what you guys are doing essentially is you guys have created this course where a gym can come and you can teach their trainers and then they have this course that they could have taught in their studios so people could do this boxing. Yeah, it's like a turn case solution out in boxing at any gym in the world, like successfully, where we give them like all the program workouts on the screen. So they'll follow along with it. And we educate the trainers how to box, how to teach boxing and how to teach this class so they have success with it. And not only that, how to build relationships and build the community and retain clients because again, that's key. And then as well, all the marketing side, we give the gyms as well. So the gym can promote this because as your boys know, you can have the best class in the world. But if nobody knows about it, like you're not gonna get very far. So yeah, we've put everything into this and I think it's gonna be very successful and I think it's gonna help so many gym owners there, bring back in old members that they might have lost through the pandemic who wanna try something different or help retain clients that might be getting a bit bored of their workouts as well. Yeah, so we're excited. Well, we wish you guys all the luck in the world. And if someone wants to do, if there's a gym owner listening right now interested, do they just go to your website? Yeah, go to TonyJeffees.com and you'll find all the information on that. Well, I mean, we know you guys, you guys are tons of integrity. You've always been very nice to us and we really appreciate what you guys are doing. So good work. Yeah, thanks. Definitely have our stamp of approval. Yeah, thank you. Thank you. The rules that apply to somebody who is going from, a man who's going from 20% body fat to 15%, the rules that apply to that person are the same as the rules that go from 10% to 5%. The difference is everything that we talked about.