 Hi, welcome to the Zelda Informer podcast for March. It is our second podcast and we have five people today First off, there's me Nathan the co-owner and webmaster of Zelda informer.com We also have two other Zelda Informer staff members with us today First up is Phil Stetson the man behind Zelda Informer 3.0. How's it going dude? Hey? What's up? Not much We also have Ben with us known as viral. He's one of the bombers riders. How's it going, bro? Not bad night. How's it going? Pretty good pretty good We also have two guests with us today First up is Cody the webmaster of Zelda universe here for his second straight podcast. How is it going? Actually, it's my third straight podcast if you include that video one shut up We also have with us We also have with us Nick known as Zyzer the webmaster or co-webmaster Legend of Zelda.com. How are you doing tonight at 2 a.m. In the morning? I'm actually doing pretty good About you. Oh, I am wonderful So today we're going to talk about An aspect of Zelda that maybe hasn't been talked about much lately due to all the Zelda we in spirit tracks talk We're gonna be talking about 2d verse 3d. And if we think we know which one's better And if 2d should be coming back because we haven't had one in a while all that good stuff so First we'll start with let's start with Cody since he is the more veteran member of our podcasting team here What do you think what do you prefer 3d 2d? What are your thoughts? well 3d is generally better because it's Just got a whole lot more Choices and a whole lot more things that you can do Like it's it's possible to make a good 2d game, but generally Generally a 2d game is just a less advanced 3d game It's sort of like I guess Black-and-white odd it's like it can be good when used correctly, but I mean in general If it's just you take the color out of it. It's not that exciting. Okay. That's cool Lem, what do you think? Also known as Phil Stetson. Yes, that would be me. I generally prefer 3d When it comes to 2d They're they're a bit less complicated generally. I mean even with spirit tracks Which I guess was technically 3d. It's still was top-down and mostly 2d, but I Generally prefer 3d. They're usually more Immersive they have better graphics, which doesn't always matter, but when it comes to 2d to 3d, that's a pretty big jump Yeah, generally. I like 3d more. It's more more interesting and has better more Complicated puzzles and stories and stuff like that. All right. It's pretty cool. Nick. What are your thoughts on the 2d versus 3d aspect? I think when people talk about 2d and 3d, they're more talking about eras versus like instead of like actual gaming experiences because People who say they prefer 2d games are usually referring to the older ones because they think that it's more of a traditional way of doing it It has better Game development. So when I think of 2d versus 3d, you have to think about it in two aspects You gotta think about the time period aspect of it and the actual like how immersive is the game So in terms of the time period, I always prefer Older games because I feel like they're that originality is hasn't been overdone at that time But as far as the immersiveness I've always liked what you can do with a 3d game because it's you There's always a lot more to do and that's what I think makes a game fun, especially for Zelda Because half of the fun is just kind of exploring. I mean sometimes I would spend more time just walking around doing dumb things Than actually trying to advance the game objectives. So some pretty good points there Ben, do you have anything to add to that? No, well, you know jump on the roller coaster the the 3d games generally have you know the more immersive playing worlds The the puzzles are generally stronger More immersive the player can really get a feel for the dungeons and the overworld and the cutscenes are amazing But you know 2d zelda games have been amazing. We even from the very beginning, you know the original legend of zelda You know, it was it was though fantastically made games link's awakening comes to mind one of the better games in the series. So Really when it comes down to it 3d is just it's it looks much prettier, but The the content of a game Could be just as great in a 2d environment Some pretty good points. I know for me I mean i'm always i've always been a guy that's kind of preferred the 3d zelda's But since everybody seems to be hopping in the 3d bandwagon, I'll try to take the other side 2d zelda's and 2d games in general I kind of get what nick when nick you brought up the whole uh era and like what era did you come from There, you know, there's still our 2d games that come out We were kind of brought back the whole 2d thing like mega man 10s coming out Mega man 9 was a huge hit Marumasa the demon blade was a really good game that nobody played That was 2d So, I mean the 2d games are kind of on the way back right now With the popular masses mostly thanks to the we bringing back the older generation, I believe but when it comes to the zelda There's a few things I think 2d games just do better and I don't want it's not really the fault of the 3d games. I think it's just Easier to do in a 2d game. Uh one is the boss fights are harder because the controls are more restrictive um That's it's pretty much been true along with I mean most of the games are banging out in two years So I mean it makes it it makes a difference And that's what's neat about zelda weed coming up is that If all of the reports and all the stuff we've been hearing about over the past few years is true This game's been in development almost four years It's the longest that's twice as long as the normal title. So, yeah, well The the development time doesn't always reflect the quality of the game No, I mean major's mask was like done in one year because They already had the models from operating our time to work with I guess so like I think If they'd used the twilight princess graphics and stuff And all the same character models like they did with major's mask They'd probably be able to put out a super good game in one year But I think if it's the graphical style and the actual development that's taking a lot of the time Yeah, it's probably part of the reason why major's mask was I mean it seemed very polished because they they finished it in like a year and a half Probably even less than that But they had everything ready already. They didn't really have to make they had the engine ready You know they they did kind of update the engine a bit because he had to have the expansion pack on but Still just they they were able to get it uh, make a much Or polish game and orcarine of time was even though it's debatable if it's better or not, but Most people some people do think so It cough cough like everyone at zelda and one of them Except what caseman I think he's like one of the few that's still exactly in a time or I have to feel orcarine a bit Well, look at that. Look at that viral. Look at that. Yeah, I'll admit it Another shape in the pack I think he's lying So, uh, I guess the other point then is with the 2d and the 3d. We haven't had a 2d zelda Sense, I think the minish cap was the last one There's what in 2005. I think that came out something like that um So should they go back to it? Uh, the last two handheld zeldas have been Uh, kind of a mix of 2d slash 3d with the cel's shading style from the wind waker um And a spear track showed I mean there was more that they needed to get done with it Or at least that they felt they could do with it. I think most of us would agree that spear tracks was better than venom or glass But In terms of I mean even even looking at a game like four swords adventures where the big reason that it pretty much failed Uh, it's the same reason that four swords kind of failed. Does it require too much stuff for everybody to play? Uh, so even a game like that I could have another one like that come out even for the console Even like think like a we wear title where it's multiplayer zelda 2d. I mean they could even do something like that So the question is should they even bring 2d back because it seems they Are leaning to not doing so Uh, let's start with We'll go with then Well looking at how the ds has been going and you know, there's the dsi xl or whatever coming out soon I don't really see nintendo going back to the 2d. I'm sure they'll expand upon what Spirit tracks and phantom hourglass have brought to us But you know, I'd really like to see a 2d zelda come back even if they you know Produced a standalone we wear title or a multiplayer games. Nate suggested Okay, uh, lem what do you think? Um, I mean, I would like them to do another 2d game It's a But if they did do it, I wouldn't want it to be in the same style as like a link to the past or Oracle seasons the hola I mean, they would have to do something different I think if they went back to 2d part of the reason why I think they don't do 2d anymore It's because they I think they feel like they've Like milked it done as much as I can with it So I if they did do it, they would have to Do something unique Maybe I'm not really sure What I'm thinking of but it would just they would just have to Mess around with the graphic style and maybe make it like if they did a 2d game on the Wii That would actually be kind of interesting to me, especially if they made it a we wear a game Well, let's see what's interesting about that and some people don't realize this. Um, the last Three 2d games. I think that we've had weren't even made by Nintendo. They were made by Capcom So, uh, it's one of those things where Nintendo themselves hasn't really even gone into the realm of 2d outside of what four swords I might be The only real attempt at 2d. They've done and again, like I said failed because it required too many peripherals Uh, what do you think kody? Well, I think spirit tracks and phantom hourglass were For all intents and purposes of pretty 2d games. I mean like But with the graphics it was sort of like at an angle. You could see 3d graphics, but It's still basically the same control system of say the minish cap. You have an overhead view And you run around and swipe the thing to make your sword go It's not 3d like ocarina of time was where you could Zoom in and you know look up and down and around. It was just the same overhead view except that In phantom hourglass the boat sections were 3d and In spirit tracks, I guess the train sections were 3d, but I think they really are still making 2d games Just with some little extra features. Nick. What do you think about it? I think the problem with 2d games is The two-dimensional idea represents simplicity and when you try to take a two-dimensional game and make it complicated It really just kind of draws away from the fact that you've tried to make something simple But then you're making it complicated. I mean, I don't it seems like they're indecisive between what they're trying to get out here So they went to making a 2d game I think that ignoring all graphical accomplishments would be best and they should make it simple and focus on like Making it a really engaging story like something that Shakes up the Zelda lore instead of just being another hunt for the triforce and kill Ganon kind of you know find seven Medallions or save seven maidens or whatever kind of monotonous You know rehash of every other game we've played That's a fair point Especially since there supposedly is a new game coming out this year And obviously who knows when the next handheld game is coming out a lot of people Especially those that have been playing Zelda for a long time like us We're obviously sick of the same story over and over again, even the spirit tracks was I mean it was unique because Zelda was with you the whole time But I mean her body was captured. So it was kind of like the same thing. He had to save her body Uh to prevent them from you know resurrecting themselves in it Which reminds me of every other time that Ganondorf has used Zelda's body in a stage of a fight Um and the fact that maladis himself was just it was Ganondorf with a different name It'd be nice for a different story in general and I think 2d Um as much as good as you can do storytelling with a 3d game I would cut scenes and all that additional character interaction you can get like Majora's mask As shown us in the past I think what 2d does is allow for even greater scope of storytelling because everything else is so simplistic Like you brought up that it's easier to focus on Things like the story Because you don't need to worry about well, what's this guy going to look like? Well, okay, it's a sprite It's really not that hard to come up with a unique look for a sprite So, I mean that is an interesting point I mean as far as 2d games go I think it's always been really I always enjoy games where you Why is the thing a cutscene? You literally walk up to a character and like the way they would do the way they do cutscenes now But back then they would have a character have this large monologue And explain things to you and that's always interesting to me because it's like You're gaining your knowledge from a primary source as opposed to watching it happen I don't know what this just I just think it's fun that way and I will say uh One reason that they also may be strained from 2d 2d is Extremely easy to emulate and thus very easy to pirate It's another Point to bring up because I'm not seeing the making a lot of 2d games for any franchise really And that could be why I mean the bait I don't know if that's exactly the whole reason because even spirit tracks I mean anything that's on a handheld is pretty easy to emulate because I mean it's the program's already made and It's not too hard to run on computers like 3d games are Just Console games like I I know a ps3 emulator doesn't even exist because processors just can't handle it. So It's just It's very hard to do it has more to do with me I feel like the reason why they're not doing 2d games is because they feel like they need to uh It's it's not Like they're beyond that now like the 3d was like a new step. It's a new challenge for them to make Better and more immersive games rather than go back to 2d and Just make simplistic games and I think they feel like they're beyond that that they're past that point Yeah, I guess it's sort of like I don't know like doing a silent movie like purposely doing 2d. It's just sort of If you're doing it 2d on purpose It's either because you want it to be simplistic or because you um, you want to be artistic Yeah, if they wanted to do it they would have to do it Yeah, if they wanted to do it they would have to do it for Reasons beyond uh We just feel like it. Well, let's see Nintendo is a money factory anything they put out they're going to sell millions of copies and make lots of money So the question is how much money do they want to make because they could spit out 2d games like water I I mean seriously, there's so many fans out there that love a link to the past I mean you could there's probably just as many who think a link to the past is the best game in the zelda series As people think or green of time is the best game in the series Or an ocarina time is just a 3d a link to the past Yeah, I mean a lot of people think that so I mean if they think I think if they made a 2d game It would have to be If they wanted to make money from it It would have to be reminiscent of a link to the past in a way because it would it would bring those people in that Uh, love that game in which there is a lot of them I mean there's some people I know that won't even play the 3d games because they hate them. They don't think I'm not even sure exactly what it is. They hate about them, but they they love a link to the past To the point of hating 3d games. Yeah, I guess it's just peaking aside, you know, they want to be the The old cool people who were before zelda got, you know famous the indies The purists Well, it's also one of those things that nintendo, you know, they keep pushing the casual market Which a lot of the casual market they're hitting are people that used to play games But don't anymore And that could be an interesting aspect to think about if they made like a 2d a link to the past styled looking game Like it could bring back some of those people that they were playing a link to the past when they were You know in their 20s early 20s and now they're like 40 And they haven't played zelda in forever and they're like hey, what's this? and that That's the zelda I remember. Yeah, well that was the idea That was the idea behind new super mario brothers. We I'm pretty sure, you know, nostalgia Yeah 10 million plus worldwide sales. Yeah, pretty sure they're doing pretty good I mean personally if if they did a 2d game, I would much rather them do something original But I know nintendo if they did do it It wouldn't be it would be something to get people back People who played a link to the past and haven't played it again They might pull the pokemon and just do a version of zelda remake or something And that will bring in dollars without having to do that much work Well, nintendo is always interesting because You know, they are the innovators in the industry. They're always finding new ways to do things But one thing they've always been terrible about is uh Franchises they milk They're especially they're they're mario and zelda especially Plus pokemon now. I mean they milk those franchises like like nothing like team rocket I Mean they they're not good at necessarily making new unique franchises. I mean the last one they really came up with was what Pikmin and Even that franchise seems to have died out If you count story based ones because there's also there is like things like metroid. Yeah Yeah, there's metroid, but they like they don't milk. They don't milk Metroid like they do like a mario mario's and everything Yeah, there's more than 350 mario games. I know zelda what had there's two tingle games that are zelda related There's tetris trackers. There's links crossbow training uh You know not to mention being a big featured player on some of the earlier Super smash brothers and super smash brothers brawl and melee Like being one of the big characters on the cover used to help sell sales. He was in soul caliber Yeah, he was in soul caliber too. I actually think it would be really interesting if they did a Like did what they do with metroid because they they seem to have a lot of freedom with metroid. They let uh Random basically random people just mess with it. They let retro do it and let now they're letting uh Team ninja make their way with it. Uh, they don't seem to have that much freedom with with zelda But see I think that's easily explainable Metroid has never been a big selling game for them Like if it was for any other company metroid would be a massive game But it's like best selling game is only sold You know like around three million copies and the best selling zelda game is like seven million plus I mean new super mario brothers. We just pumped out 10 million plus. It's only been out a few months I mean it's one of those Metroid is never sold as well as their other franchises. So I think that's why they were comfortable saying. Hey, look, this is going to become our hardcore gamer Title and we're going to let you know more hardcore teams like retro and team ninja Screw with it because I mean it's not getting the same sales as the other games already So we can push this to a different audience I mean, I still don't really see what what they're so nervous about because I mean, it's like They put out Two zelda games generally around the same time as each other. That's that seems to be their trend and I I don't see what's stopping them from letting other people Take the zelda franchise and Do what they want with it. I mean with with supervision. Obviously they did that with capcom, but Uh, I mean, it's not they would make more money. They would people would still buy it And I don't think they would make people would get tired of it either So I just I don't see why they're not doing it. It seems like it's uh, it would be an easy way to get money To me at least Part of it's Probably a lot to do with the fact that I mean when you think about metroid and you think about like Mario and all those other games that they supposedly do these things with like how much in-depth Backstories involved with those things. I mean you think about the complexity of what zelda represents and how Careful each deal tail have to be. I mean, can you imagine the The turmoil they would cause if some company came in And made some small change that like retcons half the series and nintendo doesn't catch it and they released this game like just There's so much more at stake. I think which is part of why they won't do it And god help us if anything conflicts the bloody timeline Fierce to be crazy Seriously, can you imagine though just the Because when you think about it, we're it's partly made me to do with people like us We are so involved in following their every little move With the story and the timeline and this and that like there's nothing to really catch them with that on things Like mario and metroid. I mean i'm no expert on metroid, but from what I understand. It's nowhere near as complicated It's it's not it's straight for mario timeline is so complicated In mario's timeline if you include like the cartoons and the hotel adventures, it's like I actually remember somebody trying to put like a timeline together. I don't know how successful they were though Yeah, like why are they in the mushroom kingdom? You know, are they from italy or are they from america? Are they from the mushroom? Oh, it's all confused Is this a split? It's a split timeline. I think Oh, no a three-way split different multiple dimensions blue swample over again I mean, okay I I think I think what they could do with ilda if they were worried about that if that is the thing They're worried about is people retconning or whatever they could do I feel like they could Tell those people that you can't do a game that has anything to do with the timeline they could do like a major's mass game where it's like a A spin-off of one that's already happened or something like that And if they do that it wouldn't hurt the timeline as much at least I don't think so Oh, yeah, well, zelda's quite close to home. Maybe my moto and humor They don't want people, you know mess them with it. It could be as simple as that. Maybe yeah Yeah, I mean it could be it's a pride thing it mario and zelda They're they're Miyamoto's babies No, my theory is that they did they didn't entrust zelda to an outside company once I think that scared him into submission into never allowing it again Yeah, see I know you're talking about philips I don't I don't think that was generally on purpose and they had no control over that They they gave them the rights to it and they backed out of it and philips just made those god awful games because They knew that they could sell them I that's really their only reason. Maybe they were trying to ruin the zelda series. Maybe I don't know I doubt it because if you look at it They needed something Big to get the philips cdi off the ground Because they didn't have any like big franchises and zelda when they got that contract with nintendo It was like, oh my god, we have you know an established franchise that We can use to help launch with this team with nintendo and the nintendo is like see you later We don't like the philips cdi And they still they still had the license Obviously to make the game so that like what we're going to use these games to launch the series the uh The console what we found out is that philips is not a game developer That's what those games proved And with that this podcast has already ran a little long We're going to wrap it up. I want to thank nick from Legend is over dot com and kodi from zelda universe Thanks guys. You're welcome. It was much fun. Thanks for the invitation No problem last minute podcast for the wind and then uh, we'll thank Uh phil and ben the fellow zelda informer staff. Hopefully you guys will be in future cast with me See everybody later