 Mae gennym i'r gwybod, os ydych yn rhoi gallu cael ei bod yn ei gweld yn cael ei fod yn ymddangosol ar gyfer sydd sydd gyda Robin, yn gweithio cyfan yr oedol yn cyfnodol yn gyfredigol yn yr oedol yn cyfeirio cyfnodol sydd gyda'r gwasanaeth yn ei gweithio'r gydag, ac mae'n cyfrwng ymddangosol o'r ddau cyfnodol. Ac mae'n gweithio gydag o'r ffordd o'r gweithio gyda'r cyfan, Jane. Rydw i'n cael ei gael? Yes, in my background I have a background in local government politics, I was a counciller for a number of years and leader of a local authority and professionally I'm a medical doctor and specialised in psychiatry, child psychiatry. So twin approaches. So perfect to write a book called Losing Political Office but you couldn't have known that there'd be a general election to test your arguments. Quite so, I had no idea and indeed the country had no idea. So it's an appricite time, the book was published at the beginning of this year. So what happens to those politicians and their families who weren't perhaps expecting to lose political office? Well it's very interesting particularly at this time because as you know we have a fixed term parliament act and so the last election having been 2015, the expectation, the next election will be 2020. So suddenly a snap election is called. So spare a thought for some of the MPs. My research was on MPs and council leaders but given the general election the focus of the moment is on parliament I'll talk a bit more about MPs. And there may well be a number of MPs who were thinking about standing down in 2020 and making plans accordingly or not making plans at this stage because they thought they had time in hand. Suddenly they have to make the decision do they go now, do they wait, have they got a job, they haven't got a job, somewhat of a quandary. And you've interviewed some people who in previous elections either walked away from office or lost office, whether surprisingly or not? Yes that's right, I interviewed 30 politicians in total but that included 10 politicians who are currently in office but two groups of both MPs and council leaders, 10 of whom had chosen not to stand again and 10 of whom had been defeated at an election. And of those 20 politicians I interviewed a number of their partners as well, if they had partners. Yes gosh well, did they cope well? Well it was a mixed picture essentially. I mean just to say at the outset everybody thinks that if you choose to stand down that it's all plain sailing, it's all fine. And on the contrary if you're all defeated that it's absolutely dreadful. Now my research showed that it was a bit more a mixed picture than that, that whether you choose to go or whether you're defeated has some bearing but it is not the overwhelming determining factor. Of course if you choose to stand down the one thing that you do have on your side or which you don't if you're defeated is that you do have time to plan. But as of the 2017 election that is actually not the case. So I think the important point to stress is whether you stand down or whether you're defeated it is a loss of what has been the loss of political office. Now if you've been in any particular job which gives you great satisfaction then similarly there will be a loss. But I think there are distinctive factors of being in political office specifically. Incredibly consuming of time, you might be one under the country, your family very much, it might be something certainly I interviewed MPs who would want to be MPs since they are age of five or six, they've thrown everything into this job. It mixes up the personal, the political values of the hell dear, things that are so important. And then suddenly whether you choose to go or not it stops and it does just stop. But do they then not become the editor of a national newspaper or a local newspaper? Well if you've been chance of the Exchequer then you've got a sporting chance of becoming editor of at least a local paper. But actually the evidence is very clear, both from academic literature more generally and it was born out in my research that if you're an MP on the back benches or even a relatively junior minister of state, actually it's really difficult to find employment. And people are surprised by this. There's this idea of a revolving door and they walk straight into corporate boardroom. In the UK that is absolutely not the case and many MPs struggle very hard over quite a long period of time in order to find any employment at all. Because if you think about it, suddenly you have very little income and certainly over a period of time you have much less income than you had. Council leaders have no financial cushion of any sort at all. And actually if you've been an MP for under two years you don't even get the standard redundancy pay. If you support a family then actually it is an urgency to get income and that's quite a side from suddenly losing your status, your social network, everything. And do they stay in the area of their council or their constituency or London because they've been in Parliament or what? Where do they go? Well, essentially council leaders, by the very nature of the job, remain by and large in their home. It's a different picture for MPs because unless they represent a London constituency, which relatively few do, they will have had a weekly commuting life. And I was very struck a number of the MPs, those who had lost now, more so than those who had stood down, but a number who had lost really couldn't bear to go back to their constituency. There were some exceptions, there were some exceptions, but because it had been the scene of a defeat, perhaps unexpected, and they really graphically portrayed powerful stories of walking in the street and people, friends and neighbours, not quite knowing. Did you vote for me? Did you not vote for me? And it's not just the MPs, it's the MP's family. So if they had established a home, often over many years in a constituency, perhaps a job, work, friend, social network, if suddenly the overwhelming imperative is to get away, to get out, can't bear to be anywhere near, that's a huge disruption for the family. So that comes through to me there, the title Losing Political Office, you're saying it really is a loss even if you choose to walk away? Certainly if you are defeated in your everyday life, where you are living and working, it is a loss. I think it's really important to stress that whether you stand down or whether you're defeated, it is a loss. And we know from the psychological literature that all change, even positive change, involves loss. And it is a loss for the vast majority. Now I should state that there were a small number of MPs whom I interviewed, for whom the experience of being an MP had either always been or had become very uncongenial. And I can write more about that. Really to do I think with a degree of media scrutiny, the press intrusion and for one some views about the changing role of an MP. Now for that small number they had been very keen to leave and sort of fled from the commons almost. And for them it was a slightly different experience, there's a huge relief at not being an MP. But for the majority this is something that they had wanted to do mostly for ever. Loved it, enormously valued it, pulled their heart and soul into it, whatever political party. You sound sorry for them. Well I do, I have a great respect for politicians because I think it's a difficult job and I think it's become the evidence from my study but elsewhere is it's becoming increasingly difficult job, particularly for MPs. There's a great deal of popular cynicism in politicians and what they do. But you know any democracy depends on having good politicians who serve us well. But the media seems to revel in and thinks the public follows in the defeat of certain people at each election. I think that's right and I think it's difficult to separate, it's almost impossible to separate the political from the personal. Clean any democracy it's really important that we can kick politicians out. I'm not making the argument that we shouldn't be able to do that. That's absolutely right. All I'm saying is spare a fault for the person underneath that and indeed their families. Because that experience is or can be really really difficult and just spare a fault I guess. Can we help them or can you help them as an expert with developed resilience, prepare them for it? Is there a lesson in what they go through for the rest of us? Well I think there is. I think first of all just come to the point you made about the public reveling in it. I can understand that from a political point of view but I won't name them. But there have been some high profile people whose demise whatever political party has been greeted with cheering from the rafters. And again it's understandable but the experience of that for the person is very different. And of course bear that mind. They are surrounded by flashlights flashing all over the place. They know they have got to look fine but of course inside they are absolutely devastated. And just if we bear that in mind. And yes I mean I'm not advocating for therapy for politicians either standing down or losing the seats. That's not what I'm arguing at all. I'm actually saying something very very simple. First we'll spare a human thought. There are some really very very simple and very simple steps that can be taken in order to smooth the transition from political office. Don't cross the money at all. It's not about money. It's about a bit of thoughtfulness really. Planning if you can plan certainly for those who are standing down. I was very struck. There's only one MP I talked to who had planned standing down with great care. But planning does help. If you're defeated of course it's much more difficult to plan because you can't think that you're going to lose. And of course in this particular election 2017 there have been a number of MPs who probably didn't think for a minute they were going to lose. And they're suddenly out on their ears. So planning is important. Acknowledgement. I was very struck by how the political parties all of them really took very few steps even to acknowledge the contribution that MPs have made over a period of time. And that hurts. They don't make use of their skills. There's almost a free good to be used. But because of the way it's handled both some of the politicians I talked to but particularly their partners were so furious at the lack of acknowledgement. And as we've seen actually earlier this week very interestingly one of the things that has sort of fuelled political ire in the leadership of the government has been that initially there was no mention at all of MPs who've been turfed out completely unexpectedly. So it fuels a political fury which I think we just have to understand. So finally we the public, the citizens, the voters what should we take from it? Is it about us being nicer or is it about us learning also in our own lives? I think there is stuff to learn from our own lives but I think you know when in a relationship with politicians they represent us. This is not just a private matter. So I think from our point of view of course from political view if your political opponent has been defeated by all means cheer for the rafters from a political point of view but just bear in mind the human, the person and that. But also I think the other thing to bear in mind whether we're employers, academic institutions, private companies, public sector, recognise the skills. Because actually politicians have acquired many skills in office and it actually we find that employers are slow to recognise the skills that they have. So I think there's a great deal that we can learn and I think if we were able to smooth the path both into political office and out of political office that would serve us all better. Because we all want to be represented by people who've got some sense of who we are, the experiences that citizens generally have and I'd like to see more fluidity into political office and crucially out of political office. Dr Jane Roberts, thank you very much for helping us to gain some understanding of citizenship and governance from those who are losing political office.