 Welcome everybody to another episode of the nonprofit show. We're really excited today because we have a really great discussion going on about research. And if you've been watching the nonprofit show, you know how we love data, we love all these different things to talk about behind the scenes that sometimes we will have opinions, but we don't really know why they're formed or how they're formed or even if they're accurate. So Jane Pfeiffer, welcome back. I should say welcome back because you really were away, weren't you? I was. It's going to be great. It's going to be really, really important. And as founder and president of FieldTrip, it's going to be really neat for you to have returned from a FieldTrip and to be working with us today. You know, if you've been watching us, we're embarking on a new chapter for the nonprofit show. So after five years, we are changing things up. We have got a national cohort of nonprofit experts that are co-hosting with us. And so over this next month, we're going to be bringing them in one by one and you'll get to meet them. They are from all over the country. They have very diverse fields of expertise. It's going to be a lot of fun, so we can't wait for you to meet them. We also want to thank all of our amazing sponsors. They include Blumerang American Nonprofit Academy, Nonprofit Thought Leaders, Staffing Boutique, Your Part-Time Controller, 180 Management Group, Fundraising Academy, National University, JMT Consulting, and Nonprofit Tech Talk. Okay, Jane Pfeiffer, talk to us about FieldTrip because who doesn't love a good FieldTrip, right? Exactly. FieldTrip should be a fun part of your day. And, you know, the name is based on the belief that we really don't have permission to come up with answers until we've gone outside our own perceptions and misperceptions and really studied, you know, the challenges from both the outside and inside. Our organization, we're a marketing and branding agency, but our goal is to help non-profit leaders reduce their largest expense. And that expense doesn't show up on the balance sheet. It's the cost of an IDK. Have you heard of that one, Julia? Mm-hmm. Go ahead and talk about it. I'm all in, sister. I love what you're saying. It's the cost of the I don't know because the I don't know you. I don't know what you do. I don't know why it impacts my world or why I should care. Those are the costs of the lost opportunities that face nonprofits, whether that's on engaging and fundraising or even in utilization of services. If people don't know and understand what you do, then they can't benefit or help you. And our assets that we create, whether that's a brand or website or campaigns, has to reduce that expense of the costly I don't know. Wow. You know, that gives me chills because my immediate thought, and it always has been about this, is that in the philanthropic landscape, especially in the U.S., that money doesn't sit in someone's pocket. It goes to someone else. Right. Not only are you losing that relationship, but that relationship is going to someone else and being stewarded, and it might not cycle back around to you. So it's a bigger loss. Yeah. I mean, and we've heard how, you know, especially on the donor side, how sentiment is changing so much. And yet organizations, nonprofit organizations are really slow to change, not because they don't always, you know, they fear change, but because it's just, there's so much to bring along. And so how can we cut through? And that was really the basis for conducting this research, is figuring out how do we change what we do in a way that is both, you know, affordable, economical and effective. Wow. Okay. Well, let's get into it because research is not for the faint of heart. Anyone who's ever tried to do it. So talk to us about the ecosystem for conducting this research, how you approached it, and some of the ins and outs, because you've got to really be thoughtful about this before you embark on something like this. Yes. And I will tell you, I mean, I've worked with research my entire professional career, which spans a couple of decades, and even with all that knowledge, there were a couple of times that we had to kind of regroup and make sure that we were looking at the problem or opportunity correctly. So with this research, we really wanted to understand the thinking, the why people donate and support. So our survey pulled 400 participants across the country who identified as supporters of nonprofits. So that means they made a financial donation or volunteered and considered themselves to be active supporters. And so that created this, you know, result in this quantitative research. And while the findings apply to all nonprofits, it is really geared towards social welfare nonprofits. Okay. A lot of questions in here that deal with stigma and how, you know, supporters identify with, you know, beneficiaries that may not be, you know, share a lot of the same experiences. I love this because I think that's one of the missing links is the relationship we have to the work that nonprofits do when we can't even imagine what the situations are. And so we have these kooky ideas about, you know, how they should behave or how they resolve the issue. Right. And we, and we tend to think about these audiences as, okay, well, we have, you know, recurring donors, we have lapsed donors, we have legacy donors, we have event donors. And we, we tend to think about characteristics, whether that's demographics or an attribute of some type. And then we, we kind of lose the opportunity instead of thinking, well, what do we need to share? How do we get them to think differently? How do we flip that and just think about groups in terms of how they think and why they believe that nonprofits are, you know, an agent of social change, positive social change. And let's talk to them about their why rather than their what or characteristic. And our job as communicators becomes a little easier and more effective. I'm fascinated by this and I'm so thrilled that you have done this because this is something that we need to be talking about. One of the things that I can't wait to hear your perspective is that there are a lot of donor attitudes that the demographics completely miss. And what, what does that look like? And how do we start to think about or shift our thinking about? And Julia, you know, one of the things is when we conducted this research, we knew we wanted to understand attitudes of supporters, but we were really careful not to have a preconceived idea or concept that we wanted to prove correct or incorrect. And so what we found is three types of supporter segments. And when we think about this, so, you know, all the adults who could give about a third of the population identifies as being a nonprofit supporter, meaning they give enough with recency frequency and amount that again they opt into that supporter definition. And within that there are three segments, and these segments are divided and defined not at all by demographics. In fact, mind blowing the demographics are really flat across all these different attitudes. What defines these three segments are their beliefs around their motivation to give, their, their why, their belief in a solution, and then their views of the beneficiaries or the recipients of the missions services. Those are the three defining attributes. And when you look at all three of these groups, there isn't a demographic difference across them. So it's not that demographics are bad, but it's just not evident that you can say this type of thinking belongs to millennials. This type of thinking belongs only to our, you know, legacy or recurring or most avid donors. It's really about their why. Okay, so you just blew my mind because it seems to me that's a hell of a lot easier just to flip to putting the demographic buckets in a row on your bookshelf mentally and just saying, Oh, okay, well they get this and they get that and be done. Wow. It's a different way to think about personas. Typically we have a persona here's Julia, you know, female has this type of lifestyle these types of characteristics now where do we find Julia and how do we want to talk to her. One of the easiest ways that I can explain the difference in these personas is to actually take it out of the category. And talk about, let's pretend for a minute that we manufacture and sell candles. They're high end candles, and very known for their fragrance. Well, you know, in this type of research what might come back is we have, you know, buyers of our candles who are really motivated by fragrance and their self reward is this is a special part of my me time whether I'm taking a bath, a glass of wine, entertaining with friends. There are other candle buyers that are going to use it as a decorative item to complete a look. And then the third group says, you know what this is a beautiful gift item it shows that I care. And when we think about the why behind binding that candle is nothing to do with demographics it has everything to do with how they value that particular item. So that's what these groups now we can apply that to nonprofits and say, well, how do I speak to an empathetic supporter. How do I speak to a skeptical supporter. I know it's a bit of an oxymoron but I can explain why that title is. And then the third group is a disconnected supporter. And again, it's 333434% so it's very evenly split across these different supporter attitudes. Okay, this is riveting because you're talking about things that we don't hear. I mean we hear components of this and we think we know what we're doing. But this really has just kind of flipped things on its head. Let's talk about empathy because that's such a hot button. We talk about raising empathetic children. We talk about operating business with empathy. We talk about, you know, treating our employees with empathy. Talk to us about now how we need to be thinking about this. Yeah, and Julia your mention of, you know, raising empathetic children. You know, for these groups, their values around giving were really determined, you know, fairly early on. Now our research wasn't trying to prove that but what we found is then that empathetic groups so that first bucket of supporters. They feel a responsibility for making a difference in the world. They, their family has always valued, you know, nonprofit and helping people in need. So that's a very core value. When we look at the skeptical supporter so that's the second bucket. Their motivation is more around the recognition that they will get from friends and family for doing good work. And they feel more, you know, I hate to use the pity word but pity towards the people in need. They don't see or believe that well it could happen to anyone it's more likely the result of poor choices or poor decisions. However, the skeptical supporter is still a necessary supporter. They give a large amount of money and so we don't want to say well this supporter is not for me. It's about understanding what they want from us before and after they give. The sympathy for that third bucket the disconnected supporter is just a little not quite as clear cut. They believe that it's important to continually make progress they see it more as a journey rather than a problem to fix and a solution that's available as long as we're making progress. You believe that no matter what your background, everyone is deserving of help. Now, that's very different than the empathetic bucket number one believes that any of us at any time could be in a position of need where the disconnected that third bucket believes that everyone is deserving of help, not necessarily that we could all be in that situation, but that everyone is worthy of receiving support. Does that make sense? Wow, it does and I'm taken aback. I'm taken aback by this because I'm I think I'm projecting myself like okay hmm how do I think about this without being asked directly. I think that I probably have some of these biases that are just built in and I'm astonished by this. Do you ever see a change or transition to how the sensibility follows an arc or is it just that's the way we are? That is a great question. So yes and no. Our goal as communicators and marketers is not this is not a continuum of attitude so you don't necessarily shift from one to a different, you know, idea. Yeah, however, both the skeptical and disconnected are motivated and enlightened if you will by different events. So, for example, the skeptical supporters say that things outside of our control like documentaries current news events are really influential in who they decide to support and why they might now care where in the past, they, they didn't really, you know, identify with that particular cause. So, yes, you can through education and demonstration and storytelling kind of open eyes and increase that now the disconnected supporter has a view of empathy that you as a nonprofit cannot create empathy. Create it within me it is mine to give. Yet, when we talk about when we ask questions about storytelling and the things that they look for what we realized is that when a personal connection can be made. Then that is the spark of growing empathy so it is possible even though mentally they don't exactly want to give the nonprofit communicator that power. It can be when the cause is relevant to their world. Wow. Okay, so I'm thinking that there are viewers around the world watching this episode of the nonprofit show thinking. Holy cow. I got to rethink how I'm marketing telling the story sharing the why and the what and what how do we deliver. So, you're talking about this concept of empathy. Talk about the role of it as you just started to share with us, you know, how we have these. I'm going to call them sentiments or opinions that are going to be somewhat hardwired in right right. So we kind of need to acknowledge that right. How do we do that. Yeah, and, you know, every nonprofit organization is, you know, has enough on their plates there. And so, you know, even thinking about well how do I create assets or communications for three distinct groups can be really overwhelming. And so, you know, when supporters are choosing a nonprofit to support, you know, again, it's interesting. There's, you know, empathetic and disconnected and in fact, you know, our survey shows exactly what they're looking for and we'll provide a link so, you know, follow your followers can go and get those answers. You know, there are certain things like transparency around financial being free of any type of, you know, scandal, those types of basic things. However, the oddball is the skeptical supporter who won't necessarily do a lot of research before they donate. What they're most interested in is what happens after they donate. What is the transparency around how their funds or their time or contribution is used. How did that impact the life or, you know, the mission. And so, again, we have to think about not just how do we earn their support, what are the things that we need to share. But then what happens after that gift and how do we continue to earn and kind of double down on that, you know, decision that they made that it was the right one. Fascinating. And, you know, that that makes sense. I mean, if you live with or you work with or you have a skeptical person in your life, I can see where that kind of is a pattern. Now, it's not judgment. It's just a pattern of how they process and look at the world and very interesting. Wow, very, very interesting. How hard do you think it would be for a nonprofit to take this information? And I know 1.8 million nonprofits in America, all different sizes, some working from a kitchen table and some working from, you know, a high rise, right? How hard is this to kind of get everybody thinking this way? Because this is a new attitude. Right. Well, you know, on some, I'm sure it can be very difficult because it is a new way of thinking. You know, anytime you want to make a change, whether it feels, you know, minor, you might be saying no to something else. You know, where there's risk involved in doing things differently. The best place to start in terms of implementing this is one, you know, being open to thinking about audiences differently and how we communicate. Putting that into action. The first place to start is when we're telling stories. We call this the ripple effect. So I'm going to again kind of jump outside the category a little bit and let's talk about the Cinderella story. So for our empathetic supporters, we've got this, you know, rags to riches, very human story that brings in emotion. It appeals to your heart and it's a win. That's really what we need to do is show authentic Cinderella is not authentic, you know, stories and accomplishments and how, you know, success is possible and how, you know, your support helps us do this work. That's what the empathetic supporter needs. Now, the skeptical supporter needs to understand the needs proof that this need that the beneficiary or that Cinderella has wasn't entirely of her own doing that there were things outside of her control that it was a complex situation. It wasn't just that one day she woke up and decided, wow, life is hard, just because I've decided it is so. So needs understand the change in the family dynamics, the change in, you know, the focus on the outward image that, you know, the evil stepmother had all these things beyond her control led to this, you know, rags situation. And so what the skeptical supporters need to know is that complexity, but then also that it can be repeated, so that there are multiple Cinderella's in this need, and that because of the proof, and the programs and the wrap around support, we can replicate this in a way that creates lasting impact for not just a Cinderella, but for a community. Now the disconnected supporters is more removed the warm story won't do it. And knowing that maybe we can help, you know, several Cinderella's in the kingdom. So that's great. But what they want to know is the lasting ripple effect that not only helping Cinderella is great, but now we have a happy, you know, royal family, right. So they're more benevolent, maybe, you know, the children are, you know, attending school regularly so their educational outcomes are greater. It's, it's how helping one problem really depletes the burden on social and civic systems that makes a community stronger. And that community strength is what is relevant to them, not the individual success, or helping everyone in a particular category or sector, but how solving this social issue benefits their direct community in that very personal way that's what makes it personal and that's the ripple effect that needs to be shared in storytelling. So we're trying to get the kingdom whole. We're trying to make, we're trying to show how, you know, that, you know, all boats are risen by the time. Let me back up and maybe I should have started this from the beginning. How do we even determine who are with with who we have and who we're working with how they fit like how do we even go about realigning, again, I'm thinking of those buckets that we all have lined up in our spreadsheets, you know, in our CRNs and our offices, you know, so to speak. How do we determine that? Yeah, and, you know, Julie, that's a great question as well. And, you know, we can, if an organization is interested, you know, take the survey and apply it to a database to get a very specific understanding. But I would also turn to our intuition as well, knowing our organizations that at the minimum were split a third, a third and a third. And again, we can go into more details and on where you might find these different supporter segments showing up and where, you know, the gala. Let's think of that as not completely skeptical supporters, but that is going to lean more heavily towards skeptical supporter because of the recognition from attending an event. Again, just look at this in shades. And we can say the empathetic supporter, you're probably going to know them because they're there most frequently they're the first to respond they're your advocates, and how do we empower them to do more cheerleading and championing those causes. And the disconnector supporter. Well, we just might have to think about, you know, when there's that urgent call, you know, it's end of your giving, or there's a match campaign, or, you know, to be in front of them in terms of some type of aquarium or, you know, memorial opportunity. Again, those are vast generalizations, but that's one way you can think about it without, you know, saying, oh, I need to know scientifically who's in what category or to what percentage I have these three segments in my donor database. It does because I think a lot of times we look at, you know, our portfolios if we're in development or we, you know, we look at that CRM and and we're just like, who has money who doesn't who gave who didn't. That's it. Right. We boil it down to such a transactional way and and which is never the path forward in my opinion, because it's just a one and done kind of mentality versus really understanding who our audiences and and how we can navigate with them. I think, Jane, this has been, wow, this has been great and I could spend like the entire day with you but we got it, we got to get out there and see this eclipse safely. Number one, and I need to think about some of these things that you said I think they're really impactful. They're logical and they're a great way to reframe what we're doing right. I think it's just fascinating work that you've done. Check out wearefieldtrip.com. You will find their research there and you'll be able to look at a lot of the different types of work that they're doing. And I would challenge our viewers and our listeners to take a look at this research and then think about your own organization and and see, you know, if maybe this is a missing piece that would really help you navigate forward with a lot of your decisions, not just fundraising, right? Jane, but I mean, the way you you market and the way you tell your story and the way you present yourself, it's been fascinating, Jane, to have you on. Jane Pfeiffer, founder and president of FieldTrip. Again, check them out. Wearefieldtrip.com and then you'll be able to find out this amazing research. My friend, my new friend, I'm going to say you need to come back on anytime you have some new research to share with us because this has been riveting. It really has been. Thank you. Well, thanks for letting me share it. And as you said, you know, there's there's so many more details available, but those are the highlights and thanks for the opportunity. Oh my gosh, it's been great. I mean, and I'd love that we had you on a Monday because it's a great like, okay, I'm going to be thinking about this all week. You know, it's a great a great way to start the week, I think, because it's a it's a pretty conversation. I mean, a lot of us have never really thought about this. Maybe we have looked at this or kind of sensed it, but to really articulate it in in this, you know, third third third group process, I think we can all kind of draw some lines to this and it's been absolutely fascinating. Again, Jane Pfeiffer, check out wearefieldtrip.com. Again, also need to check out our sponsors. We have amazing partners with the nonprofit show, and they include Blue Marine American nonprofit Academy nonprofit thought leader, staffing boutique, your part time center, 180 management group, fundraising academy at National University, JMT consulting and nonprofit tech talk. These are the folks that are with us day in and day out, and really allow us the opportunity to get somebody like Jane Pfeiffer to come in and share her wisdom with us. Wow, Jane, I end every episode of the nonprofit show with this mantra and today I'm really going to think about it in a different way because of what you taught us today and you really sparked some new new concepts for us, and it goes like this to stay well, so you can do well. Thank you, Jane. I loved this conversation. You have a great day.