 This is Think Tech Hawaii. Community matters here. Bingo, we're back from Hawaii, the state of clean energy. So happy to be here with Peter Rasek from Hawaiian Electric Company and David Rodriguez from the State Department of Transportation. And we have so much on our plate, right? Say yes. Yes. I knew you'd say that. Yes, sir. So many issues. Well, you're the news item today, Peter. So can you talk about what you're doing with the grid and with special renewable projects? Sure. My way of preface just last week on the mainland at SIPA, the Smart Energy, Smart Electric Power Association meeting, they gave out awards for the top utilities of the country in solar and in energy storage. And all four utilities in Hawaii, including our good friends at KIUC, were among the top 10 utilities for energy storage. Maui in particular led Hawaiian Electric Light and Hawaiian Electric. And these are in measures of total megawatt hours of storage per customer and in the newly added megawatt, megawatt kilowatt hours of energy storage. So we led, you know, a few years ago we were in the lead on solar, but the rest of the nation is catching up to us. We were on the bleeding edge of solar. Now we're on the forward edge of energy storage. And as part of that story, we have just filed yesterday with the Public Utilities Commission, we want to do two grid scale storage projects. One of them would be a 20 megawatt storage project at the West Lock solar facility, which we just broke ground for with the Navy a couple of weeks ago. And the other would be 100 megawatts at the Camel Industrial Park Generating Station, where we already have some experimental energy storage going. And both of the... Near the peaking plant. Yeah, near that plant. And both of these will contribute to two things. First of all, they'll let us add more renewable to the grid because, as I think you've said, storage is the key, the holy grail of renewable energy. If you get sunlight at the middle of the day and you can't use it at the middle of the day and you can't keep it until later, then it really doesn't have as great a value. But if you can store it and keep it to later in the day or keep it on reserve so that you always know you have the ability to draw on it, that really increases the value of solar. So these will allow us, first of all, to give the grid more reliability because we'll have a... We will automatically be able to bring in energy storage if we have a problem on the grid or if the demand is in excess of what we're able to generate. And because we can treat this as firm power instead of variable, we'll be able to add more renewable energy. That'll be more rooftop solar, more grid scale solar, more wind, anything that's going to be variable. So that will... And it'll bring the costs down as well to what they would be. We figure just this one battery storage at the Westlock, 20 megawatts, will save about $8 million in fuel costs. How does that work? Why would that save money? Well, if you are dependent on fossil fuel on oil and you're using that for your reserves to run your generators in running reserve or contingency reserve, you have to burn the oil. You have to have a certain amount of that oil in your tanks to know that you're going to get through the next 30 to 60 days. If you have energy storage, you don't need to burn that oil. You can... You draw on your batteries when you need it. You don't need the reserve, essentially. You don't need... You have a function. You have the energy storage functions as a reserve, exactly right. Either for contingencies or for load balancing or to a certain extent for load shifting. So we're getting this new Westlock storage... Westlock solar facility, the cheapest solar in the state, the cheapest energy of any kind in the state, and we'll reinforce it with a battery, and it'll, in effect, be like a firm generator in many ways that we can depend on. So you're on a track here to do these big projects, big sort of combination solar storage projects. Right. Is that the model that you want to deploy around the state or at least around Hawaiian Electric State? Well, there are two answers to that. One is we don't want to be dependent on any single technology. Even though solar is very good, we don't want to be all in the solar basket. We want to have wind. We want to have biofuels. We want to... Where it's appropriate on Big Island or maybe even on Maui, we want to have some more geothermal. You know, the whole idea is a portfolio or a collection of different kinds of technology, but especially for wind and for solar, having the ability to store and to move the power to when you need it or to have the backup is essential for taking a variable kind of, you know, hard to manage. It's not that easy to manage with a battery, but it's much easier to manage when you have a reserve that's sitting there that you know, very dependable that you can push a button and keep that going. Right. You know, a lot of people like the idea of having the utility operate the storage rather than the single family, you know, homeowner who has the solar array on his roof. Why? Because you can't control it better. Just as you said. And I, as a person who doesn't have solar on my roof, I would like to know the utility is doing that rather than, you know, unidentified people all over the place who aren't necessarily responsive to me. Exactly. And, you know, very frankly, as you and Marco, we were talking about earlier, solar is great for people who have a home and a roof that they can put it on. Energy storage in the home is great for a person that owns the home and can afford to put it in there. And they get a lot of benefits from it. And we all benefit somewhat indirectly. But these grid scale projects help every single one of us. Every single person who's a customer of Hawaiian Electric will have a benefit from these two projects when they come online. They'll help us bring our energy costs down. They'll help us get greener, help us reduce emissions, less fossil fuels. And you have economies of scale working. Absolutely. In other words, you have a more economical solution, cheaper rates if you have storage in a large concentration. Absolutely. And from a very selfish energy company point of view, we, our system operators will be able to see what those big grid solar, grid scale solar, well, hard for me to say that, what the grid scale solar, the grid scale wind and the grid scale storage are doing and can control it. We can't control or even, quote, see the 80,000-some solar, you know, individual rooftop solar because it just feeds into the grid. We don't have any way to know how much is coming or not coming. We don't have any, any, at the present time, we, in the future, we might be able to on newer systems. But right now it's just out there, it comes to us. It strikes me that if you wanted to know that, if you wanted to know every single homeowner's storage capacity and status, you would have to connect up with every single one of them. You'd have to put a lot of money into that. Someone would. To get that information. Absolutely. But if you have your own, then it's really easy for you. Well, our own, or it doesn't, the ownership here doesn't matter so much as the size and the, you know, if you have a 100 megawatt storage facility, it's relatively inexpensive per kilowatt hour to put a controller and a monitor and all that on it. If you have a two or three megawatt, kilowatt system on your roof, the cost of having a monitor and a controller that communicates back to Hawaiian Electric can be very high. And the, obviously the customer doesn't want to pay that. We don't, you know, we can't pay that for to help this customer when it doesn't help everybody else. So when are we going to see the completion of these two projects? They should be online, assuming that the Public Utilities Commission moves along. The Westlock project, we're hoping to save about 30% by taking advantage of the, of the federal tax credit because it's attached to an actual solar project. So we're looking at the end of 2019 for that one. End of 2020 for the one that would be at Campbell Industrial Park. So these are going to, you know, we're knocking wood. The commission will see the wisdom here as I think they will because we hope they will because they've said many times we need to have more of this kind of storage. Thank you, Peter Russick. Thanks for coming down. Can I do one little quick plug for my free, free advertisers? I really encourage people to go online. You can see our latest sustainability report 2017-2018. You can see all the previous ones. So if you want to really get down in the weeds, you can compare where we were 10 years ago to where we are today. This really in one short book with pretty pictures and nice graphs can show you where we are in our road to Hawaii to clean energy on our way to reducing greenhouse gas emissions. Well, the best, my favorite page is this one right here. You can go island by island. You can see everything is happening on Oahu. It's in place. They're coming along. Everything's happening on the big island. Everything that's happening in Maui County. Everything but Kauai, which they're doing a good job on their own. But you can see it all here. You can see where we are on renewable energy. How we've, you know, gone to 27%. You can see how our oil use has dropped off dramatically in the last six or seven years. You can see how many electric vehicles David has put on the road. We've put on the road. But David, can you do that here for us? Yeah, I'll leave this here for you. What's the website we should look at? Hawaiian Electric Sustainability or Maui Electric Sustainability or HawaiiLight.com with sustainability and you'll see this report and many others. Thank you, Peter Ross. Always a pleasure. Thanks for the Hawaiian Electric. Always a pleasure. Thank you so much. We'll take a short break. We'll come right back and we'll talk to David Rodriguez. And also Stan Osserman. Wow, what a combination. We've got all the right back. All the traffic. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. I'm Ethan Allen, host of Likeable Science on Think Tech Hawaii. Every Friday afternoon at 2 p.m., I hope you'll join me for Likeable Science, where we'll dig into science, dig into the meat of science, dig into the joy and delight of science. We'll discover why science is indeed fun, why science is interesting, why people should care about science. And care about the research that's being done out there. It's all great. It's all entertaining. It's all educational. So I hope to join me for Likeable Science. Okay, we're back. We're live. I'm Jay Fidel. This is Think Tech, and especially on Wednesday, Hawaii, the state of clean energy, which is organized by the Hawaii Energy Policy Forum. So we have, as I mentioned, David Rodriguez, when he is the special assistant to the director of the Department of Transportation in the state of Hawaii. And the new appearance at our table, who is not new at all, is Stan Osserman. And he's the executive director of HCAT, the Hawaii Center for Advanced Transportation Technologies. He's also Mr. Hydrogen. What a guy. So full of gas. Yeah, that's right. We pass more gas before 9 a.m. than most people do in a lifetime. A miracle that what happens there. So we're talking about transportation. This is transportation month yet. And we want to get a handle on what's happening in renewable transportation, clean transportation from the Department of Energy Department, excuse me, Department of Transportation, otherwise known as the Department of Energy, right? And from you, as the hydrogen coordinator who is very familiar, heavily involved in transportation. So who wants to start? Stan, why don't you start? Okay, I'm going to start by giving kudos to my friend here, Dave, and his, I guess, former boss, the kind of sort of the boss, Ford Fujikami, who really, the Department of Transportation isn't supposed to be doing cars and trucks and that kind of, their installation or infrastructure people. But they picked up that task to make sustainable transportation a goal for the state of Hawaii. And I really got a hand at the state DOT for picking up that ball and running with it. They've done a great job for the past couple of years. They haven't missed a beat. And now they've got a full time ran there jumping on it and doing it. So Dave doesn't have to do all of it by himself. And we'd like to participate in it and we agree that electric transportation is a future. So good job, Dave. You guys did an awesome job. Yeah, I never thought I'd be doing this in our, as a role at Department of Transportation. Good, that's a good move. That's terrific. Are you happy? Am I happy? Yeah, I'm pretty happy when we get forward. You look happy. He's overwhelmingly happy. My wife does not drive an electric vehicle. How are we going to get her to do that? Well, at the DOT we try to lead by example. And so it starts with us electrifying our fleet when we do our fleet conversion, which occurs every 10 years. What we try to demonstrate is savings and all that. And really try to help create the infrastructure so that you can fuel these vehicles. That means charging stations. Correct, charging stations. I'm working with Stan too to do his hydrogen station. So would a charging station and a hydrogen station be the same? In other words, I pull up, I drive onto the station, over here there's electric charging, over here there's hydrogen. Is that way we're going to go on this? We don't know yet. I think a hydrogen station is a much quicker fill-up than a charging station. So they may be co-located, but you'll see more of a traditional throughput of hydrogen traffic rather than stop and park and charge. Because even your quick chargers are, we're talking at least an hour maybe. Well, is there technology coming down the pike that would change that? Unless you can put a battery and it's charged and you drop it in the electric vehicle or hydrogen vehicle, I don't know how that's going to work. Yeah, it's kind of tough because it just gets to the electric physics laws where you can only push so much power so quickly into the vehicle. Your rapid chargers are more expensive to install. A lot of the biggest problem we have in Hawaii is the infrastructure in the buildings, the electric infrastructure is not there. So you have to start upgrading transformers and start doing that to put it in. And that's why we probably don't have as many as we should. I had a guest on my show from Oregon though who's trying to put a new technology together. It's a drop in place charging station for electric vehicles. It has a tracking solar panel array on top. And battery storage in the base. And you just drive your car on, run your charge card, and you're going to have to tie it to the grid or anything. So we're trying to get him to actually start. Well, how does the charge get into the car? You go and plug in just like a traditional charger, but use a charge card to pay for the service. And all you have to do is work a deal with whoever owns a parking lot to drop these things in place. You basically drive onto it, plug in and charge. So we're hoping he can prove his technology. That would be faster. That would be a fast charge. Well, yeah. And you wouldn't have to do the infrastructure upgrades because it's all in place. But honestly, I mean, the technology is not promising in terms of achieving really fast charging at a reasonable rate with the equipment that we know now. But your point a minute ago reminded me of Better Place. Remember Better Place? They had a system where you would drive in and the thing would take your battery out and put another battery in. Same kind of battery. And you had to trust them to give you a good battery, I suppose. But the new battery would be loaded and it would take faster than gas, faster than even hydrogen. The problem is that, I guess, they went bankrupt. That was the problem. It was usually a serious problem. I think Tesla had a model like that too where they basically drive in over a thing that dropped your existing battery, slid it out, put a new battery up underneath because all their batteries are low to keep their center of gravity low. Yeah, right, right. That's a possibility. But what's interesting is the new technology that's going to take over the lithium is going to be a nanocarbon type technology. And we don't know how that's going to charge. It may be faster, it may be cooler. I mean, part of the problem is you have so much heat and there's a lot going on when you rapid charge a battery. But you know the big motor companies are really going in that direction. They're making more electric cars in this country and they're making more hydrogen cars, I think. Is that going anywhere? Toyota Merai, Surfco's got their station almost ready to put online. They've got a little bit more... That's a hydrogen car. Right, and that's in production, hydrogen car. There's about 3,000 of them in California. We've got six here on Island and Surfco's getting ready to sell them. Honda has a production model. Hyundai has two production models coming out this year. So these aren't demonstrations or prototypes. They're actually being delivered to, mostly to California because they have the infrastructure to support it. You really believe that we should have both of them driving around, both electric and hydrogen? Yes. Shouldn't one prevail? Wouldn't it be easier if one prevailed? Well, it seems to go that way because right now the electric vehicle is the low-hanging fruit and Stan agrees with that too. But hydrogen is also as promising. I think the problem is these charging stations. They need to come up with some kind of business enterprise model so that they prop up on their own and not have to be on the backs of malls or buildings, private buildings or whatnot. They should be similar. Suppose I peeled a million dollars off my bankroll and said, I want to build one of those stations. I want electric, fast charging, and a one hydrogen both. And I'm going to find a location. I'm going to get into a lease for that space. I'm going to sell. I'm going to advertise. I'm going to make a business, right? That's all I have. I'm not going to do automobile inspections. I'm not going to have 7-11 there. I'm just going to do charging. Can I make a living that way? No. Why not? Economy is a scale. You got to go big or go home. I mean, whether it's these charging stations or whether it's hydrogen, you're going to have to scale it to a point where you're making money because right now it's tough to do that. On the mainland, they're doing a lot of steam reformation for like 70% or more of the hydrogen that's being put in hydrogen vehicles. And that's already in the market. I mean, the big gas companies already do that. So they can do it inexpensively. But to do it cleanly with electrolysis were a long ways from doing that scale. Let me change the facts a little. Let's assume the state of Hawaii gave me a five-year tax holiday. No tax. Would it work then? You still have to combine the business. Right now, gas stations offer those convenience stores because that helps offset their profits, right? So, I mean, what would you operate while the guy's charging? You know what I mean? Okay, I'll add a convenience store. Maybe a coffee shop or something. I have no idea. Maybe in the black? And a parking charge when he stays there while he's already charged up and nobody else can use it. Okay, I'll give you that too. You know, you want to have as many profit centers as you can. But do you think it's possible? Given, you know, any creative idea you can come up with, with my location, which is as big as, you know, a gas station. We like to say there's no silver bullet in this transportation thing. It's more of a buckshot solution. We need battery plug-in, we need hydrogen, and we also need hybrid. I mean, people underestimate the impact that hybrid vehicles can have immediately and the car companies are making them. The car companies are pushing them out there and people are buying them. And you'll, you'll get better mileage. You have electric drive train, which is more efficient and is cleaner. So, and I think- And people are more likely to ride because it's a half-half, you know, it's a good bet. But let me ask you this, they, the hybrids never were getting a tax credit, right? You don't get a tax credit for- Yeah, I recall. You only get a tax credit for a pure electric. I don't know if you get a tax credit for- I don't need it and I have to ask Dave Rolfe or somebody about it. But my, my question is what, why doesn't the state of Hawaii actually incentivize this kind of, if we want to get to a place and we know as a matter of one in one, political science or public policy, we know that if we give an incentive to people who would not otherwise be inclined to take a certain step, if we give them an incentive and make it, you know, luxurious enough, they will. And then we can change the way people, even by the millions, conduct themselves. So if I gave you, I don't know, 20, 30% credit on every electric car, which we used to do, something like that, and every hydrogen car, and every hybrid car, I could change, I could change the way this works. Right now we have about 6,000 cars in the state out of, what, a million something? Maybe a million, point one, is it? Per person. There's like two cars per person. There's a lot of cars. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's an extraordinary number of cars. Maybe we should cut that down, actually. We'll talk about that later. But you know, if I gave you a fat tax credit on one of these things, and I took the other one off your hands, whatever it takes, you know, to really make it appealing to the average, to my wife. Who's a resistant buyer? I could change public purchasing habits, couldn't I? I could do this. It's just a question of how much money the state is willing to spend for the incentives. Well, there's a lot of pieces to the puzzle. I mean, the auto manufacturers have to make the kind of cars that'll work and make them available here in Hawaii to be sold. The market has to be there, the incentives have to be there. And you know, and not only that, we have mode shift and bikey, vicky, bikey things. I mean, we've got to start doing a lot of different things to cut down our vehicle miles traveled per gallon kind of. All those things have an influence on what we're talking about. For example, the other thing is self-driving cars. And for that matter, expanded what do you call it? Those ride hailing services, what do you call them? Uber and Lyft. If you, you know, the natural extension of those guys is it can be more of them and it'll be cheap enough to compete with owning a car. I think it already is actually. And in my experience, it's a great way to travel wherever you go in the world but also right here. I mean, I could, I can stand in front of this building and have an Uber Lyft in a matter of 90 seconds. Pretty good. And it's cheaper than a taxi cab. Sorry, taxi cab. But the bottom line is, I think that's going to expand in the years to come. It's going to be, it's prove itself, make it make itself more appealing to people. And so that's a factor that you've got to consider in dealing who's, you know, in figuring out who's going to be on the highway what kind of highways you want, what kind of, you know, traffic arrangements and all that stuff. So it's a moving target, as I'm saying. Yeah. Well, DOT has to fix the roads on the highways, at least when they break. And the more cars you have on the road, the more damage there is to the road. The heavier the vehicles are, the more damage there is to the road. Battery vehicles are a bit heavier than all the other electric vehicles. So and only that, but the more gas vehicles we get off the road, the less gas tax goes to DOT for fixing the roads. So that's where I'm conflicted. Yeah. That's where you have to get past that thing too, so. Because right now at the DOT, right, you know, you pay for the highway system. It's actually a reward. So gas consumption is good for the DOT highway fund. You know what I'm saying? And here I am promoting sustainable transportation, saying we want the lower gas consumption. That hurts my bottom. That's a come, you know, I'm trying to change the culture at the DOT. Very difficult. We should fix that now. Well, that's where you know, working together on legislation and do something like a tire tax, where the more you wear out your tires, the more it goes to DOT rather than how much gas you burn. Yeah. Because then you're actually, whoever's using the highway the most is wearing out their tires the most. Something like that. Let's go back to the barrel tax for a minute. Because what you get is a kind of barrel tax. I know it's not the same as the barrel tax. This is your own barrel tax. It's our own gas tax. Yeah. Which. But if you wanted to raise money in order to whatever it is, I'd say fix the roads, but that's the smallest part of this problem. If you wanted to encourage, if you want to have a tax credit for electric cars or hydrogen cars, if you wanted to incentivize changes in conduct by way of tax credits or by tax themselves, that's the notion of the barrel tax. You tax the activity you don't like and you turn the money onto the activity you do like. But if you had a higher gas tax, fossil fuel tax, you would have more money to do more things and get the renewables. You could afford a much bigger, I think, depending on the numbers, a much bigger tax credit for this. So if I said to you, look, I'm not fooling around about this. My name is Xi Jinping and I'll tell you what to do. I'm going to require every car to be a non-fossil car by the year 2020. Find a way. What you would do is you would tax and then incentivize, tax and incentivize. And then you'd say, on January 1st, 2020, no more fossil cars. They got to be off the highway. We appreciate benevolent dictators like yourself being or whatever. It's a dream. But it's not, it's just like I said before, it's not that simple. Because when you start doing that, then the people that need their cars that don't make that money and drive are penalized then you're hitting the lower income brackets and penalizing them by charging them more for gas when maybe the richer people can afford it, the poorer people can't and the burden is then on the wrong people. So hand in hand with what you're saying, you'd have to have good public transportation that public can afford. Well, that leads us to a whole new issue, doesn't it? Hydrogen buses, electric buses and a series playing around with that right now. That's what we promote. We promote multimodal systems and transportation at the DOT. Including electric buses. You know, going back to your point, I mean, we've made several attempts, several sessions already trying to raise the gas tax. But there's nobody likes to raise taxes. Nobody likes to raise taxes. Status quo, Uber Alice. That's a really interesting reference, isn't it? Status quo, Uber Alice. So, you know, but what about the notion of public transportation? Is this really interesting to me? I go to Melbourne, Australia. And in Melbourne, they got a beautiful city plan there. They can eight block CBD. Okay, in the eight blocks, they got free trams. You can go crisscross around, up and down by free trams. The result in the eight blocks is, commerce is booming. There's pedestrians, there's bicycles, there's, you know, stores and shops and museums and hotels and everything. It's like, it's like Wonderland. Only because really, in my view, they get the free trams. The trams, by the way, are electric. Some of them, some of them are gas. It doesn't make a difference. You know, and it's a question really, and I put this to both of you guys. In that context, building an economy, in that context, you know, and reinvigorating, or invigorating a city, and creating kind of a multimodal kind of affair, do you really care about throwing all the fossil fuel out? They use existing equipment. They use existing trams, because they feel that it's more important to have the tram operating than it is to go green. You do realize you're talking to two state guys, not two city guys. But yeah, I mean. Okay, well, yeah. I'm sorry, yeah. The city runs the bus system, and you know, and DOT is doing the shuttle buses at the airport to kind of demonstrate the technology. But, you know, again, it gets back to who's going to fund it? Is the city going to fund it? Is the city going to ask the state to help fund it? You know, and it's a big, it's a big mental shift for vendors and business owners when you take and change the mode, you do a mode shift in the transportation sector, where you just pretty much wipe out parking and wipe out the convenience of driving right to a store. So to me, like public transportation only works if you have frequency and they're on time. You know, people don't want to be late. People don't want to wait 20 minutes. You know what I mean? They don't mind if they missed a bus and another one's coming in five minutes. Once you have that frequency and that reliability, people have trust in that public transportation system and they'll start riding it and you have less on the road. Yes. Well, you know, you make a good point, both of you guys are state guys. However, let me ask you, I mean, is there anything you could or should or want to do from the state's point of view to achieve that kind of frequency and maybe cheap public transportation? Is this something that you think about? Is this something on your plate? Well, at the airports, we try to create competition. Yeah. Yeah, well, we were Alice, you know. Try to create competition. Maybe Southwest comes into town, you know. And creates that frequency and drives cost down and all that jazz. Okay, so that's the airport. And the airport is the airport may I say the final destination on this? Or you're going to take the lessons you've learned at the airport and put them somewhere else? Well, I think the modes are different. We're talking ground transportation is totally different from airports and the harbors, which the DOT encompasses statewide. Yeah. What's your thought about it? It's going to be, again, all of the above city and state have to work together because the counties all have different challenges with distance, with frequency, with load. Oahu definitely has the density that we can support a system much better than the other islands. But that's something where it's, you know, the sustainability guys and, you know, fortunately, all of our counties and the state are putting sustainability in the forefront, which is a cradle to grave. We're looking at the whole thing, all of all the options, all the modes, everything. And I think as we get those sustainability offices in place and they start looking at that full spectrum solution, they'll come up with some good plans and the DOT's sustainability started it off. Yeah. And what's emerging right now, as we speak, is, you know, car share. You know, CERV goes launching their car share program. What does that work? Their car share program, basically, it's like a car rental, but it's more app-based. But I guess they'll have where you can open, you know, you don't have, you don't need car ownership, right? You're renting a slice of the car. You're just, yeah. But you don't have to pay it for the gas, apparently. You don't have to pay it for the insurance. Not other than both. You know what I mean? You're just a driver. You get on your phone, look for an available car close to you. It says there's one on King Street right here. Locked down there. It's got GPS or something. You walk up with your phone. It unlocks a door for you. You don't need a key to start the car. You get in the car and drive it. You get off where you're at. And now the next person, when you lock it up, the next person says, I need a car where you just dropped it off. Like the Beaky bike. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, same idea. And it keeps on moving. The vehicle keeps on moving. And we're doing that right now? We're doing it right now with bikes, and we're not, and we are currently doing it right now with, well, Enterprise has a car share program, which they operate out of the University of Hawaii. So, oh, you can do this at the University of Hawaii. Correct. They have like a car share program there. For the students there, so the students there don't really need the cars. They don't need to own a car, but if they need a car, they could go and get it. That's perfect for students, actually. Yeah, and so you rent it by the hour, you know? Yeah, just one trip, and you can leave it somewhere else. Well, you have to leave it in a designated lot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Circo's already actually done a in-house beta testing. So they've actually taken a bunch of their employees and said, hey, try this out, see how it works. And apparently it's worked to their satisfaction, so they're looking at pressing forward. That's just another factor, you know, in terms of how transportation is going to evolve. I mean, it sounds great to me, and conceivably it could be really big, and a lot of people would do it. If it was always available, it was fast, it was cheap, you know, and it satisfied your... It could be a clean fleet, you know what I mean? Yes, yes. And it's like having a new car all the time. If that takes off, then that's another factor that changes the way we look at this. And the current generation is less inclined to buy a car. A lot of them are just, they want to use the B-key, or they want to use a car share, or catch public transportation. And when you think about Hawaii in particular, our cost of housing and stuff is so steep. I mean, the next biggest expense you run is a car, with insurance and the payments and the gas and everything. So it makes sense that if we can eliminate that other big ticket item in the state of Hawaii, maybe it makes it a little bit easier to live here and keep our kids that go to college and move to the mainland because they can't afford to live in Hawaii, keep them home, which is another big goal we're trying to do. Okay, we need to still this down for the people, okay? You go first. What message you want to leave with them about how they can deal with these coming changes, okay? It's camera one, okay? It's really all about taking the individual effort to support sustainability that the counties and the state are working on. You got to make personal choices. My wife, we downscaled our cars in the house and she's taking the bus now and she never used to do that before. And now she does it sometimes. And we're doing our part, getting solar on the roof is part of it, looking into hybrid vehicles part of it. Buying an electric vehicle, if it makes sense, like you have solar on your roof already, you're doing clean energy. You got to get an electric vehicle if you don't have long ranges to drive. Look for hydrogen coming out in the future when the infrastructure's built up. We get that going, but it's an all of the above solution, mode shift. And focus on, again, the word sustainability is not just a buzzword. It's that cradle to grave thing I always talk about. It's how much does it really cost to make it? How much does it really cost to operate? And how much does it really cost to the end of life when you have to get rid of that technology? Is it a hazardous waste? Is it going at landfill? You know, I mean, I look at the CFL debacle. Everybody went to complex fluorescent lights and because it was a big energy savings thing, everybody's pushing them to get big discounts, rebates, tax cuts or rebates. And then you go, oh, it's got mercury in it. We already dumped a bunch of them in the landfill. It's not good. And LED was right there. And they're better anyway. Why didn't we just go right to LED? So, I mean, we've got to kind of be smart about the cradle to grave aspect of any technology we look at and not just jump on the first thing that comes along. What I get out of that is the things are changing like it or not. And the old models that we grew up with about how we treated cars and used cars, those are changing. Yes, they are. And the public really has to get on board and see the changes, learn about the changes, participate in the changes. And to do that, they got to look at SyncTech and hear you guys again and again because you can report to them about what those changes are going on. Okay, David, yours. There's camera one. What should they be thinking about and doing? Well, be part of that culture change. Again, Hawaii didn't really have a bike culture. Now that Bikki, it seems to be working and people are adapting to this bike culture that Hawaii is actually creating. The more people use the bike lanes and Bikki bikes, the more lanes you'll have on my roadways. Absolutely. So it's all about that. So it's about using these things and showing interest in these things that creates that change. Plus achage, plus achage. Your French is impeccable. It's impeccable. They used to say plus achage, plus lamem, which means the more things change, the more they are the same. But I've changed that. I've said the more things change, the more they change. David, thank you so much for coming down. Thank you. Stan, great to have you on. Welcome to see you too, Stan.