 So I'll go, here it goes, I started the recording, I'll go through the policy written on the policy. Linux Foundation meetings involve participation by industry competitors, and is the intention of the Linux Foundation to conduct all of its activities in accordance with applicable antitrust and competition laws. It is therefore a specific person that needs to give to meeting agendas and be aware of and not participate in any activities that are prohibited under applicable U.S. state federal or foreign antitrust and competition laws. Example of types of actions that are prohibited at Linux Foundation meetings and in connection with Linux Foundation activities are described in the Linux Foundation antitrust policy. If you have questions about these matters, please contact your company council or if you are a member of the Linux Foundation, feel free to contact Andrea of the growth of the firm of Gasmir of growth, which provides legal counsel to the Linux Foundation. Hyperledger is committed to creating a safer and welcoming community for all. So welcome everybody to this meeting. We're going to have Saqib was saying I'm coming here on proof of trust. You know, if you agree, I will leave the word to them to illustrate their solutions. They have bars in terms of great funds going to be very interesting. We had a preview a few days ago. So welcome, gents. I'll leave the filter you for the presentation. Thank you Andrea. And good morning, good afternoon and good evening depending on which part of the world you're joining us from today. I'm Saqib Waseem and I'm the chief innovation officer at the proof of trust. I'm also joined by my counterpart from IBM, Mr Kevin Gill Kevin. Hi, I'm Kevin Gill I'm the CTO and distinguished engineer for blockchain services in the UK and Europe. And I've been working with Saqib and that the CEO and team of proof of trust Dean Armstrong is that the CEO who is a QC and head of chambers in London as and has been very influential alongside Saqib in this dispute resolution solution which is equally at home with both legal services and any SME input to dispute delegate review but we'll see that as we go through the presentation and see some of the screens and what's been produced so far. So keep back to you. Thanks very much so if you guys don't mind, I'm going to pop some slides on the screen just so we can start the conversation. Well we can talk through what proof of trust is how it came about what markets were working towards and why we feel this is beneficial to the legal services market but more broadly speaking, governmental transactions and commercial transactions at scale with me. Can everyone see the slides on the screen now. Yes. Okay. Excellent. So, I guess I should start by giving you guys a very high level overview what proof of trust is where it came from and effectively how it operates so proof of trust is a UK limited company operating globally. Founders are entrepreneurs from various different markets with a keen eye on patenting technology across broad different environments and industries. And as we saw the rise of blockchain in 2015 to 2017. We've seen that the growth of smart contracts and accounted for the fact that there was no patented methodology for dispute resolution across any in all blockchain. So what proof of trust is secured today is global patents for the method means an apparatus for dispute resolution across any in all blockchains using a really innovative method for distributed consensus to manage that process. One of the key thoughts is, is we use technology enablement and blockchain to drive better, fairer cheaper faster decision making processes around legal disputes, or data resolution and governmental transactions as we'll get into into a little bit. So as we start in our journey, really understanding, we know why this is so important what services we can provide. We started building our idea of this interconnected universe, if you will, of different industries and participants within blockchain consortia and how legal services really underpin the longevity of faster, more efficient transactions. We've seen how business enablement and technology has improved trade and facilitated many different industries to work more efficiently. And our diagram on the right hand side here kind of illustrates how proof of trust is a focal point into ensuring that these transactions can run smoothly in a large network of facts, almost like a network of network of your Kevin will agree. And the analogy that we like to use is proof of trust is almost like the sun in the universe. And in any universe you have your son and you have your planets orbiting it, and the planets would be the industries. And then on each planet you have satellites, and those satellites would be the participants within those business networks. And through this network effect, we can use proof of trust internal mechanism platform to interconnect these industries with legal business and advisory services for fast review, executing transactions with trust. And we use blockchain as an underlying layer and we use hyper ledger fabric to do this, but to prove the trusted transaction so we record the evidence of that transaction throughout the entire journey at proof of trust. And as Kevin mentioned we've been working really closely with IBM since the middle of last year to develop and provide the solution. We've created three products in our journey together with IBM, nebula cosmos and nimbus at a very high level, nebula is a governmental focused application or platform. And it's focused on inter and intra governmental transactions, effectively using the same distributed consensus model to interconnect different governmental departments, so that for complex approval processes were able to effectively create agile and stream processes, which otherwise would be paper based and waterfall style transactions. Our second product cosmos is more commercially focused. It's aimed at large businesses or high level or high value transactions where legal services are really required. So if we consider a dispute with a large organization we take an insurer as an example insurers are encumbered by significant liabilities every year by slow and incumbent legal processes and ADR processes that exist today in a more carbon or analog world by digitizing it, we can alleviate some of the pains that I felt today by slow times to resolution, heavy costs for standing up lawyers over fixed periods of times. And we can alleviate huge liabilities on balance sheets by providing a faster fair adjudication process around that. And Nimbus is our social good application, and this is designed specifically to reduce fraud and corruption around COVID specific issues or pandemic type issues. For example, HMRC in the UK for example, we're seeing between 35 to 48 billion pounds worth of issues or potential fraud in the UK related specifically to COVID. What proof of trust can do is provide governmental departments with scale and trusted adjudication of those transactions where otherwise it would take them years to resolve proof of trust feels that it can resolve those in a matter of months. So what proof of trust really works as an ecosystem, how does the product actually land itself with these clients. Well, we like to segment our offering into three areas. We have the buy side either client side, we have the sell side which is the supply side, which is what proof of trust is focused on providing, and then we have additional benefits, which I will relate back to our original diagram of the universe. But from the client's perspective proof of trust can effectively interact with any kind of application. We are API centric so we can connect to legacy applications or any type of blockchain. We aren't afraid of the fact that we are definitely high pleasure. We like to work in an agnostic sense and not limit ourselves to what opportunities we have with any different type of clients environment. So this integration that can be front end integration, or it could be back end integration with any of those clients that we have. And what does proof of trust do. Well, we provide the legal expertise, the matchmaking the adjudication system around that, and all the mechanisms for producing a verdict against an issue. And what do we produce at the end of this. Well, we record all of these transactions capture metadata anonymized information about it to provide market insights that are applicable to the client. So we're able to digitize the entire process and provide a 360 degree view of all of the events surrounding a dispute. We're also able to offer market wide insights if we have multiple participants as we show earlier in the cosmos diagram so if we take to finance or finances and industry there are multiple participants in that each of them struggling with their own disputes and issues proof of trust can digitize and analyze all the analytics around that and provide holistic view and anonymized sense of where everybody ranks with their disputes. How does it actually work. I think that's the key question that everybody asks us what does the process look like. As you mentioned proof of trust allows an organization or an entity to integrate into the proof of trust service where they can trigger dispute or an issue, either part way through the transaction if they felt that the terms have been breached. Either post transaction if off chain information comes into play that would instigate or indicate an issue otherwise within that process. As soon as we accept a case. I mean we call this that the big red button. So if we have two parties that dispute they can instigate proof of trust. We give both participants the opportunity to categorize the type of issue that they're faced with or multiple issues that they're faced with based on the contract set in place between the two of them. We allow them to capture evidence and provide rationale and really give us their story and tell us what the issue is just like you would do if you're presenting to court. So let's capture both sides of the story to that effect proof of trust digitizes all of this standardizes the information and records this anonymously to a blockchain so that we're immediately recording this with trust. We then use a much making algorithm and the proof of trust within the proof of trust application to look at all the information that's been presented by both parties and effectively provide them with a panel of adjudicators. From our system, so proof of trust is developed and establishing a marketplace of vetted and verified legal and business specialists from around the world. So covering multiple different specialties or industries, and also ensuring that we have global coverage for multiple different jurisdictions. So proof of trust is an entirely customizable approach to dispute resolution so in the diagram you can see forth that we have five delegates in our system. Those would be the appointed adjudicators for a dispute, we can customize various attributes about the transaction itself so we can scale the number of delegates down to three or anything above, as long as it's an odd number of delegates in consensus, and we can also set different kinds of thresholds against acceptance criteria. So it may be that we want 100% consensus for very high value transactions, or it could be that in the case of five delegates that the organizations instigating agree that four out of three delegates agreeing is sufficient. If we don't reach consensus or agreed consensus between the delegates in the first instance, we then pass that to a secondary panel, reducing the error of risk. And I'm certainly not the mathematician in our organization but our head of research and development and nuclear physicist Dr Sam Kelly has crunched the numbers on this and we actually find that we're able to reduce the risk of error down to one in 500 million, based on our patented algorithmic approach. Once we've got an output from each of the delegates in the system, our algorithm combines that and produces a binary outcome, we're then able to effectively deliver that decision back to both parties in a binding agreement, and we can record the outcome to blockchain. And as mentioned earlier, we capture all of the analytics around that process. Kevin, did you have anything that you'd like to add at this point. The one thing to remember is the marketplace in the middle can be from a variety of sources. So it could be the top four accountancies, it could be the top four legal firms, it could be smaller SME consultants, it could be industry SMEs. And the delegates and I'm going to go through some examples as I progress, the delegates could either be from an industry or they could be from legal services or they could be from the organization itself. So in the HMRC example that Sakeed mentioned, they are processing 27,000 cases with 30 internal delegates. If they wanted to use this approach, we'd be able to provide hundreds if not thousands of delegates to be able to scale up to do those 27,000 fraud cases very quickly. So, Kevin, I'm going to pass over to you now so you can give a little bit of context about proof of trust and IBM relationship, how we're working towards going to market together in various different industries and we can work through some, some real life examples of where proof of trust is providing benefit with context the different products that we've produced. Okay, next slide please. Thank you. So last summer, Sakeed and Dean came in to see myself and team in IBM in London. And we were talking particularly at the time in the blockchain space, and where the proposition started was around smart contracts, and it was about executing the smart contract. In a way that had some legal review or SME review rather than just writing by a programmer, a digital contract that didn't provide the provision for the future, the recourse to enable the correct legal provisions in the event of disputes. The other thing it would do is in the event of a dispute, similarly to smart contracts where you can get delegates to review the contract, you could pull in a pool of delegates from either legal accounting or multi industry background to actually as Sakeed says, go through that case, and I'll give some examples of how cases look and show you some screens in a minute. And at the time we were focused on smart contracts and we could really see the benefit of that so we teamed up. As times progressed, this isn't only trying tied to smart contracts. It can be any digital process and that there's a shipping example that I'll give in a minute which was actually tied more to an ERP solution. Similarly, for hard copy contracts, this could be the future of legal services. And it could be as Sakeed says, the new marketplace to actually provide that review. It's API centric so you can call it from wherever we've built client applications as well so you can call it from that, but really this is flexible and we'll see some examples of how we do that. So in phase one which we completed over the winter and early spring, we built a platform so the platform's ready to go, the repeatable process is there. We built a couple of candidate examples around insurance and tax fraud at that point. But since then we've been taking it even further. And what we're really doing is creating something that enables quick onboarding. And we've also looked at the screens and what needs building for specific industries. So one of the things we've been looking at our employment disputes, particularly contract employment with the United Nations, one of the biggest areas of potential for proof of trust is around high value insurance. So whether it be personal injury claims or whether it be B2B in the reinsurance or portfolio of insurance space. Similarly, when you look at supply chain, there are portfolios of contracts that are brought together. So things like a trade execution dossier which will have the trade finance documents in it, it will have the trade credit risk documents, it will have things like dangerous goods. It will ensure things like goods arriving on time and not perishing. So all of that's got to be written correctly in the first place. And when disputes happen, you again need to pull the delegates in to actually resolve that. The other area, as Sakeed mentioned is government. So across government, particularly tax fraud, whether it be a vac carousel fraud or whether it be the multiple flavors of COVID fraud that we're seeing in the current pandemic. Or in some economies, there are things like financial markets products that are actually regulated and managed by government. So things like promissory notes and the assurance of that. And then lastly, government departments are big complex beasts, much like B2B businesses in the private sector. And so there are handoffs between the departments and they may be disputes, they may just be around resolution. And certainly inter-ministry process enhancement is something that we've been looking at, particularly in the Middle East and emerging economies. And some of these solutions we've been presenting at ministerial and prime minister level to countries like Bermuda and Bahrain. So Sakeed, next slide, please. So starting to move on to some real examples. So I mentioned about high value personal injury claims. And what we're talking about here is hundreds of thousands, if not millions. It's difficult for the individual that's making the claim. One, they don't understand the cost, they don't understand the process. They may be done trust their insurer. And so what's really needed is something that enables the dispute resolution and arbitrage independently, impartially, and across both the claimant and the claim handler in the insurance companies across the insurance business networks. You need to accelerate it. You need to reduce the costs, particularly for the claimant access to justice and one of the benefits of proof of trust. And again, the UN example has shown this is in emerging economies, individuals may not have access to justice proof of trust being global enables potentially multi-lingual solutions for those emerging economies. And what it's actually doing is being equivalently impartial as court proceedings today. And we've been taking this to major legal firms, we've had conversations with luminaries like Professor Saskin and the world of online courts, and certainly this has got a role to play. And then lastly, insights and we'll see on the next screen how that works. We actually learn from the experience. So as we actually provide a resolution going through the patented algorithm with multiple delegates bringing together consensus. We actually record that and we track it and we make it available. For instance, in the insurance case, it can be passed back into the underwriting process to enable better underwriting. It can be a service that proof of trust provider insight services. And what we've really built is something that's providing dispute resolution, promptly and fairly as cost effective access to justice in a similar way to online courts. Now in the COVID world, that's really important because courts are really constrained so the timing is good for this. So keep can we have the next slide please. So here's an example of insurance and this this is how we build the use case. So we use design thinking we create personas so in this case we've got the claimant and the claim handler. There'd also be the lawyer that's representing the claimant we build the personas on the top right hand side we've got a process flow and I'll go through that in a bit more detail. We review what happens today. We build the as is process. We map out on swim lanes to understand what each of the personas is actually doing as we run through the process. And we build the client screens and the correct writing to the ledger or to off ledger because we segregate things like personal information and information that may need to be deleted at some stage in the pack that pulls together the both what we call the killer question and the associated information and again I'll show a screen of how that works in a minute. So keep can we go to the next screen. So this is an overview of the end to end high value personal injury claims process for insurance. It could could equally be applicable to be to be claims particularly if you're re ensuring high value assets it could be business to business. But what we've got on the the left hand side, we kick off the process and there's some triage between the claim handler and the claimant. They may agree it then they may approve or they may reject the claim, but as often happens, it becomes more and more difficult as you progress down this profit process flow that the relationship becomes more and more constrained. Now it may be at that stage you even call proof of trust early and some delegates say well in this kind of claim our experience is this is the outcome this is the cost and it enables the claimee or the claimant and the claim handler to perhaps arrive at a resolution earlier. Now the the other thing that can happen is they fall out. So we've got to the point where there's a lack of trust between them and what we need is an impartial organization to come in and deliver that. And that's what the proof of trust solution is its marketplace wide. It's a design for multiple insurers so something that sits in the industry at that point right in the middle of the screen where we see the proof of trust blue logo that they are in vote. So at that point there is a question raised so and generally in this case it will be does this amount appear a fair amount of reward or recompense for the situation that's happened or not. And behind it there will be supporting documents so as the claimers kicked off both the claimant and the claim handler will have created some documentation that's collated it's secured. It's provided in a pack together with other documentation and it might be things like the weather. It might be information about a company or the individuals or other parties. And then the delegate themselves does a review and that's passed back. This is independent. It's got similar provenance and similar similar legal weight as online courts and that's why we have a QC that's driving this and his team behind the categories of disputes and how we handle them. So at that point the delegates all go through their review. They come back the consensus algorithm either generates full agreement or it might generate 80% agreement and based on the business rules that's then passed back to the claimant and the claim handler. Now at that point, it may be everyone's happy. And we can go ahead and that's the resolution. Now what might happen is there's some either some more information or perhaps there's more dispute around this and we have a super delegate process where we can go through the same loop again and pass that back to the individual and what we're really doing similar rigor rigor to court impartial process, something that's industry wide that enables access to justice. So, Sakeed next slide please. I might just add at this point as well that the delegates within the system operate under anti collusion properties within the technology. So we admit the opportunity for either party involved in the dispute to actually communicate directly with the delegates. So we could offer any opportunity for external interference in that process as well so there can be no majority sway. And the delegates are anonymized from each other as well in that panel, so they work independently to use their expertise or industry knowledge to come to the conclusion, based on their own view, as opposed to majority view. So, when we look at insurance, it's not only personal insurance that will benefit it's anything that's high value that's going to have commercial considerations that would be a candidate for dispute. So things like the London market or any major reinsurance co insurance market, looking at the border or the portfolio of contracts, particularly as they head towards digital. And again making sure that they're written correctly in the first place, and then secondly handling the disputes commercial insurance around property, particularly around liability and direct to liability high value claims, and also providing back insights and underwriting trade credit risk insurance and the trade finance associated with it high value claims, life and pensions both for high value personal claims, and quite often life and pensions and other products in in insurance are mapped together as a portfolio and then it's very insured. So you then get the potential for B2B disputes, any speciality insurance products that tend to be more complex. And then behind that, the underwriting process will benefit from the insights as we've already said, and all of the learnings from every use case are being captured and either fed back to the organization that's made the request, or fed back as insights that can be offered as a service. It doesn't stop at insurance. So certainly banking and trade finance and loan agreements trade execution dossiers, where you're letting contracts digitally or even calling them manually as a service to this marketplace. So that's a great review and one of the insights will actually enable writing of better smart contracts, and then things like home buying and home rental, actually looking at both the commercials when you set up home buying and rentals and disputes around that, promissory notes we've spoken about, and tax fraud and shipping registry I'm just going to go through a couple of examples. So Sakeed next slide. This is an example of some of the real screens that we've built as part of the proof of trust scenarios. And this is about shipping registry. And particularly in Bermuda, you either get high value assets like this luxury motor yacht that we can see in the middle, or it could be container ships. But significant commercial assets. And what we've got on the left hand side, this is the application to register a ship that an individual would fill out. They put in some of their personal details. And what they'd be kicking off in this case is the request to register a ship. But the register of a ship actually goes away and does some delegate processes behind it. And on the right hand side of the screen we've got an example delegate screen. This is a simple example. And what we've got right in the middle where it says application summary is what we call the killer question. And basically this is saying someone's requested to register a ship. As a delegate, can you go away and review all of the documents and either agree or disagree. So that's the question that enables a binary result. So we've got some case attributes so it's actually giving things like the name of the ship. And then it's got some documents that will be referred to. And in this case, it would probably go to some legal SMEs, it might go to a shipping SME. It would go to some individuals that will go and do a survey of the ship to make sure it actually exists. What you probably got is a handful of people that would all at the same time concurrently do their review. They would answer the killer question, and then the consensus algorithm brings that all together to get agreement. And in this case, the agreement would be a successfully registered ship. In the previous insurance case, the agreement might be, did we agree with the award that was being suggested by the insurer or not and we're just going to go on to another example around tax fraud and I'll talk about how that's covered as well. So revenue related fraud, when we first started building this last summer, we started looking at that carousel fraud. So as someone sells a car or a high value asset and they ship it abroad. There's a lot of fraud where that's never actually shipped an individual's claim for the vat on the asset and it's totally fraudulent. We know that immediately after that there will be a myriad of different COVID related fraud problems, things like the coronavirus job retention scheme in the UK, eat out to help out bounce back loans, all of them. There are people that are sitting in back offices, just trying to work out how you can defraud the revenue. And Mr. Keep says, just the one job retention scheme or furlough fraud is three and a half billion potential fraud in the UK, and there's 27,000 cases that haven't been dealt with yet. Now when you've only got 30 individuals in HMRC that can actually resolve this or in the 10s, you actually need to be able to scale up. And what proof of trust is doing is, first of all, the traditional audit and legal services SMEs providing a marketplace that can be enabled to look at that and the screen that Sakeed showed that showed five delegates all looking at things at the same time. The delegates might be legal SMEs from big law firms, they might be legal SMEs from smaller firms, they might actually be industry SMEs, it might be revenue individuals themselves that are part of the delegate pool. But what we're really doing is enabling scale, we're providing experts and in the insurance case, you might have some insurers that are experts in one field and not in another. By having this marketplace, they can actually bring in SMEs in the areas that they're not involved in. And then when you look at what proof of trust adds over and above this. It's a scalable delegate review process. It's impartial. It prevents collusion. You can bring the cases back in the house so as the 27,000 scales down, you can bring it back in house. You can find that different governments across different countries as cases kick off actually share their resources and pull their resources using this mechanism. So it's repeatable and scalable, you can apply it to any of the three flavors of fraud that we've seen in the UK, or others globally, but then you can provide it to other revenue fraud scenarios. The one thing that really comes out that's even more added value is the insight, visibility and metrics that you get behind this. Next slide, Sakeep. So that this is a simple screen. It's some of the real screens that we enable in terms of analytics. And as the disputes are resolved, we're capturing metadata. We're capturing things like volumes and types of disputes. We're capturing things like typical case outcomes. And as I said right at the beginning, those typical case outcomes could be used even without going into huge pools of dispute resolution. It could just be used to inform early resolution of the case with an insurer. So you can drill down on these metrics so we can see types of cases we can see the delegates and their rankings. You can click on any one of these in the solution and drill down and see what's the detail behind it. And these can be tailored to the needs of the business network. So next slide Sakeep. Thanks for that as well Kevin. I think in sophisticated large commercial organizations. There is a continuous improvement life cycle that exists already and we're talking about how well how can proof of trust enable legal departments or legal services within those organizations to improve and benefit from digitization. And that's specifically what proof of trust is looking at. You can look at a high level aggregate view of all the different types of policies or contracts that you have in place. And you can point to specific clauses or potentially weak phrases within those clauses that lead to loss as a result of dispute. So, it's quite a powerful tool that enforces continuous improvement within organizations. So, concluding, we've seen some screens of the solution. It's built. It is a marketplace with reputational, reputationally rated subject matter experts. It enables additional escalation. We've shown you the killer question we've shown you example screens behind that every type of dispute we will class as a category. And behind the category will have an outline killer question which is what has to be answered. We'll actually think about the documents that are associated with that. And as we said, as we've said several times, our CEO is a QC and his team are actually providing the legal input in terms of how is it all of that and the business rules formulated. We will provide significant benefits in terms of access to justice and dispute resolution, and that the four insurance companies trade finance, not having to keep liabilities on the books, and resolving this quickly will provide significant benefit in terms of provision. So, here are some areas that we've seen so around trade credit risk insurance and both B2B insurer and the trade finance to insurer disputes. There are also insurance legal processes whether it be subrication and handoffs between insurance or high value claims, invoicing and invoice finance capital markets in particular, where you've got products and there's lots of B2B interaction, even across portfolios as well. Disputes over credentials. Direct to liability contract employees, and then regulatory reporting and compliance, and this could both be a class of disputes in the government space, but it can also be built into the business networks that we're servicing. We talked about fraud and fraud prevention, and then it is a new marketplace and channel for dispute resolution, creating regulation and legal dispute marketplaces and adding extra provenance because this is all delivered with private and permission blockchain behind it. So I'm going to stop there and I'll hand over to Sakeeb, and then we'll probably take questions as well Sakeeb do you want to wrap up with anything. I'd just like to thank everybody for their time today and we welcome questions around proof of trust and what it is that we're doing. Nothing further to add, I think Kevin you've done a great job of detailing some example use cases but I'll stop the show for now. And if anybody has any questions after today, you can always reach out to us via email addresses as shown. Thank you Sakeeb. I see in the chat that two questions from Camelish. The first is solution as production deployment. And second is about Bermuda shipping register. Camelish, we'd like to ask anything to Sakeeb and to. So, is this solution implemented in the Bermuda second registry. The solution is built ready to deploy. And one of the things we've done when we took it to the, both the Minister of Shipping and to the Prime Minister of Bermuda. We actually built the screens and we demoed the real solution around shipping registry. What was quite interesting was their registry was more ERP in terms of its source rather than a ledger, and we used our APIs to simulate what they were doing with their existing ERP solution. Now one of the things that's interesting is the Bermuda government are actually looking at could they use this for other areas like registries of airplanes. The intergovernment dispute and again we mentioned about presenting this to the Prime Minister. They are very keen to use this across government. And similarly in Bahrain that we've been talking to the legal counsel of the Royal Family because Bahrain is a hotbed of blockchain. And they're looking at how can they embed this across processes for Bahrain. In terms of the API being called from multiple areas, but to answer your question, the solution is built ready to go. The only thing we do each time is we tailor it to actually meet with the immediate need and we would typically do that through design thinking and a small number of weeks of actually tailoring the specific dispute and as I showed in the insurance example, with personas and we can either build a client application or through API, it can be built into existing applications on the client side. Yeah, I got it. So actually why I asked regarding the Bermuda Sipping Registry because we were also talking to the Bermuda Registry I think six months back regarding the same kind of project. So just asked. Yeah, as Kevin said, we're looking at, you know, broad application across multiple departments with the Bermuda, including shipping registry and other different ministries as well. So we're now in a phase of exploring how we can work with them to effectively interconnect all those different ministerial departments. So shipping is just one example but there are many in-flight that we're exploring with them. It's Eugenio, Ikeven and Sakim. I just wanted to understand and try to brainstorm with you because I really think that your products could fit into the DSI ICC initiatives because actually one of the main benefits of your products is actually to support and empower the settlement disputes in the trade process. And of course DSI has one specific layer that is focusing on legal harmonization of the rules. And so for all of course of the disputes that came come from their activities. And also I see as his own jurisdiction in terms of international arbitration that could provide important database and records for your validation. So I suggest to you, you should talk with Oswald that have a lecture within our SIG in the past weeks, because I think your tool could help these ICI overall in to support this harmonization of the trade progress. We definitely feel there is harmony. There's huge amounts of synergy in what we're looking at and what DSI is looking at at the moment. We'd be delighted to engage with Oswald and the wider ICC team on that initiative. Certainly as you said, when you're talking about global trade, it's about establishing jurisdiction. Certainly I'm not the lawyer that our CEO, Dean Armstrong, can talk more about jurisdictional value. But what we're really saying is that as long as there are terms set in place between two parties, and jurisdiction is established, proof of trust can utilize our internalized network of legal and business specialists from all around the world. So that we're promoting faster and speedier transactions and settlement. I think the synergy is there. The core principles of our ethos at proof of trust which is faster, fairer, independent. You know, we've seen how technology has assisted trade finance and, you know, multiple different industries and we've seen how the legal industry has suffered and slowed down those processes sometimes to years. And we're here to really put a flag in the ground and ensure that we move things forward accordingly. Yeah, I totally agree with you because actually ICC can provide an international recognition framework for law and jurisdiction, over which the parties can be binding to and supporting to your tool to execute their transaction in the trade operations. So I definitely see these and I will support you in any way and probably Andrea and Julian, we should support this. Absolutely. I agree with you. I mean it's really important to put proof of trust internationally with the ICC DSI. It's fundamental. Dean and I are presenting to the ICC conference on ADR and dispute resolution this Thursday. So, okay. Hear it from the CEO's mouth. Okay. And just one question from my side. So, you know, of course, Kevin, you mentioned fraud detection and stuff like this. We, I mean, you, you based your speech on what we can call open accounts finance based on insurance. A question that I had in mind for a few weeks. Is there any possibility of having an application of your solution to detection of fraud in documentary credits and demand guarantees. Any question marks so far, you know, traditional state violence and disrespect. It's what foggy heavily based on jurisdiction and natural jurisdiction is running development. You visit. We've mentioned quite a lot about insights and insights are things that build over time. So the insights will be low when you first start. But certainly quickly as you're running cases through it the insights will grow and you'll get a knowledge base of types of case types of fraud. And the COVID examples that the governments will typically have their own mechanism for highlighting fraud, and then they'll bring that to the dispute resolution process. But there's no reason why over time when you learn from those, you those insights can't be built into AI and used to actually do the analysis as well. So that's certainly direction of travel, and it's something will that will evolve as the proof of trust service and insights evolve. So keep you probably got a view on that as well. I would say stay tuned around AI in the use of AI. I think what we're looking at today is, you know, the future has been all about heavy automating. We need really precise information that can only that can only come from humans, I guess in a legal services for detection world. How do we capture that trend? And I think using proof of trust internal network to grab gather, especially from around the world. We're in a prime position to facilitate that. It's certainly on our agenda for the future. But as Kevin said that requires time to build up all of that knowledge and data around it. So stay tuned. We're definitely looking into it. Certainly on my radar, a CIO to deliver something around. Well, say that we can talk more often in the future. I'll stay tuned for sure. I'm really interested. You know, one of my main concerns is integration of blockchain and artificial intelligence. If you look at back at what we're trying to do in the past, you can notice this. So thanks. I will keep it a careful eye on base and we'll keep the light on cleaners. Absolutely will be in touch. You know, I'm going to open the lines of communication to everybody in the group. We'll keep you guys abreast of all the initiatives that we're working on as as the company grows. We certainly stay in touch for any opportunities that we can gather in the trade finance space as well because we feel that a certain it's a very close fit to what we're doing. Yeah. Thank you so much. Anybody else would like to make questions is keeping Kevin. So I have in general question not going to the key. In the trade finance. What any exam banks play role. Because I'm working with couple of exam banks and they want to be part of the trade finance products and the kind of groups. So what they can generally have a role in a trade finance. So they because I want to be want to be invite them to join this trade finance. I think it's about assurance of the transaction more than anything. I think if you have an underlying protocol like proof of trust that can secure and honor the terms maintain the integrity between the transaction of multiple different participants. Not I'm speaking about the proof of trust in general in trade finance perspective what is it exporting import banks play role in the trade finance. Certainly not the trade finance expert but we've got a room full of. Maybe using or maybe and you should probably address that question to the room as opposed to me I'm proof of trust. Certainly not the trade finance expert. Yeah, sorry. There are a few here that can help you. I mean, I'm not. We help you can let you know understanding how you know export import banks obviously very important in the funding of transactions and trade finance globally right. So happy happy to help. Good to see good through the information that I'm uploading constantly. I'm about to. Okay, so actually, there is a one consortium of the import expert banks, where are the global export input bank. I think every country has some kind of export input bank called Exum Bank. And there's a consortium of the banks and they I think don't know what their role play in the trade finance but currently we are serving their trade finance and the blockchain kind of education those banks and they want to be part of the. Trade finance SIG or trade finance. Our platforms, maybe we did our trade or maybe DLT laser. So but I'm not understanding what their role play in a trade finance transaction life cycle. Yeah, okay, I think maybe we'll have another conversation on that kind of leash because I think that's definitely definitely it's an in depth discussion about where banks and everyone. And, you know, I'm sure can help you there as well right as a banker himself on where where they fit in but they in a correspondent banks all kinds of different banks take up. But in terms of today just asking, you know, say he and Kevin. So what what's so if we want to work with you how what's what's your what's your business model how you're rolling around the world. You know, obviously, your IBM says she'll be in every country now. Because you have scale right so how do we work with you how do people want to work with you. What's the, you know, how do we engage go to market back. Everybody reach out to us via our website through trust.com through there there's various contact forms depending on the type of engagement you're looking at we're ready and able to provide demonstrations workshops. I think every client who reaches out to us has a slightly different tailored solution, as Kevin mentioned. So we're, we're all about engaging and working closely with our clients to provide workshops to tease out what that solution is. And then the business model associated with that differs depending on the type of solution that we're presenting, I is it governmental is it commercial what sector is it in. So we've got multiple different types of subsets of business model at the moment. And we're working through all that now. Excellent. You see the work of governments. So you're working with these are Bahrain I heard I had the Muda right. Yeah, and basically places that are very keen on blockchain is that kind of like the sweet spot you think it's a big government organization silo that have lots of disputes and is that. Absolutely. There are two main focal areas that's large organizations that struggle with, you know, significant numbers of high value disputes and that could be a large banking organization or an insurer as Kevin has mentioned. People were struggling with huge amounts of liabilities and the encumbrances of waiting for court times and slow ADR processes that would be one subset of clients that we're interested in we're working with. And second, as you mentioned is governmental governments are highly sophisticated they struggle with managing fraud. They had huge scaling issues when we are impacted by things like pandemics. So proof of trust solution designed to resolve a number of different issues in the governmental place is there are entirely complex beasts if you will. But we've got a couple of really solid products that we're working with governments around the world. I think if I can build on that that there are two aspects to the, the, the, the areas that we're dealing with. One is digitizing, and it was so keeps that we were talking about the use of the term digitizing on the very first slide. And that's important. So, enlightened countries or organizations that are going through a change where by default they might end up with just programmers driving it rather than the right SMEs. And that is about access to justice. So particularly in either the emerging or the fast moving economies its economies with with change. This is a benefit because it enables a larger marketplace and, as you probably gathered, this isn't just a technology solution. That's a complete new marketplace. And that's why we've been working with some of the largest legal services players around the globe to actually move this forward and when Sakeed use the planets and the Cosmos description. Certainly, the legal service business network is something that recognizes that this is time for change. And it's not so much turkeys and Christmas. It's about being able to provide a marketplace for the digital economy. Whereas today, it's very much hard copy done by word of mouth, and that's not sustainable going forward. And that's why some of the countries that we talked about are already enlightened and good candidates. Okay. So actually the construction if you look at the construction industry here in Hong Kong and continuous disputes right and enormous values are very large infrastructure projects is that that obviously that's mostly government as well. So that would be an area right maybe is an area that we're actually looking at. I mean, if we look at how elongated court processes can lead to entire projects abandonment. I mean, we've all seen cities with buildings that just aren't doing anything really and that could be the case of, you know, things or wheels spinning in court. I mean, everybody needs a pragmatic solution that can get, you know, the same rigor, but in a more pragmatic means and that's what we're here to do. So we are looking at the construction industry quite closely. Okay, interesting. I think we'll come to the end today. Andrea you're going to wrap up. Thank you. That was great. That was really nice guys. Thank you so much to keep in Kevin and you know, I think we can we can end the meeting Julian and you know, look for for the next meeting on 24th of November. Thanks everybody for joining and see you soon, hopefully. And keep this as well so you can always put information to our mailing list the mailing list right continue the conversation there right it's not just the meetings. Absolutely. Goodbye everybody. Take care everybody keep safe. Bye. Bye. Bye Kevin.