 So good morning everybody. I hope you had a good great evening and a good night and Okay, so we had an open mic session We have two posters to best poster awards that we'll present and we I'm glad to tell you that There's a hackathon team from the blockchain for signs track of Dora hex so we cooperated with them and this is the team that won the blockchain for signs track basically Talk about the project and what they did at the hackathon. Okay, okay? You just came just come and like introduce you like really briefly so cool Thank you that you actually come because you have a working day, right? You need to be at work later Okay, I just send the pictures via email. Yeah, okay You can just like put like five to ten minutes as you want Okay Okay, just your name and what you're doing and what the idea was of the hackathon Okay, just like first your name. Okay, and your little your background and then you talk about the project. Okay? Okay? Yeah, okay. Yeah Hello, everyone. Thanks for being here My name is Ignacio. I'm one of the members of the winning hackathon during last weekend I work currently at Pradaina a consultancy agency. We mainly focus on web development and yeah, so doing the past weekend We work on a project regarding the block propagation on a blockchain, which is a huge problem for current blockchains mainly because you have all these nodes getting transactions and if you want to Propagate a block during the entire blockchain. That's a huge problem so Bitcoin is obviously one of the biggest Blockchains affected by by this and you can think it as a problem similar to the DNS's work or sorry the CDNs work right now so it's a content delivery network, but Their main idea is to get content fast for the consumers So these are very similar problem regarding block propagation and the challenge for the weekend was how do we measure block propagation and How do we get the numbers of how much time do you take to? Propagate the block to it through the entire node so you can think of it as a problem of if I get my salary onto my bank account How much time do I need? for it to be registered on the blockchain and cross the streets and buy groceries something like that because obviously the transaction will be executed on different nodes and Because it's blockchain and it's only one database. You will have only like Eventually that transaction will be on the other node and you will be able to buy your groceries But the question is how much time do you need and so? Currently you have Bitcoin which takes around 10 minutes Ethereum which is around seconds and Cosmos for example, which is in this in the just a couple of seconds even even less so it's that question of how much time do you need to Propagate the blocks. So for this We went with the Cosmos as SDK and they provide an open API that we can query and to see which nodes The current node is connected to so what you see on screen is a graph of all the nodes and how they connect themselves So you can see with us This as each of the circles being a computer executing transactions and Which other knowledge are connected to that one? So if you're connected directly you will be the first one to to get that Transaction So what we did was we built a scraper or or a crawler a crawler that would traverse the entire graph Recursively and it will take a single node and see okay Which nodes are connected this node and then we go to that one and say okay Which nodes are also connected to that one and so eventually we'll have an idea of all the graph and how it's connected to every single node and so with that in mind we can have Diagnosis such as okay, how healthy is the blockchain or how prone to attacks it could be because if you have a very centralized network where you have only one or two nodes that Condense all the all the other nodes you have very very You have single points of failure they'll expose like a very easy way to attack the blockchain But if you have a dense a densely connected graph and you you have a truly decentralized network you'll be Protected against that so there was just so this is also a way to to see how how you can shield against attacks So this was the main idea of the project, but Again, we also needed to measure the time and see how much time did you actually took to to propagate this transaction? So I spoke during the weekend with one of the cosmos Developers and asking okay. How do how can I get access to the endpoint where transactions have been transferred? Like how do I get the bare metal access to this transaction and see what is going on to this node? Like what's going in and out of this node and he said well currently you cannot do that you have to modify the the SDK and Write some logs to see what's the actual time of the transaction So we did that during the hackathon and we forked the project. We rewrote some parts of the goal Code that they have and we included the script that will trigger a right to disk whenever it received a transaction and so the problem after that was We needed to connect ourselves to the test and what that is is we needed to deploy our Modified nodes into the network to see how much time would it take to to propagate this transaction and so We run into some problems doing that in the hackathon and we couldn't join this with our modified software And so what we did was okay. We only need We said we only need a test net to to see how much time doing it So let's go ahead and build our own test net because in the end we just need computers to run transactions So we went with digital ocean, which has it's an amazing tool to deploy servers easily and so we deployed servers all over the world and We included our modified software over all of these nodes and we started sending transactions over Bangalore, Toronto San Francisco and all these names that you see online and To put it even to stretch the the latency even more we connected them in such a way that If you wanted to route a transaction from Frankfurt to Berlin because there's only a way via the nodes You'll have to go to San Francisco and back So with that we can actually stretch latency even more and see how much time it actually take to propagate the block And so that was good. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So if I if I repeat it with my other words and if I go Correctly, so it's like before the blockchain is actually written and consented the switch the transaction opposite to the network, right? And I mean like a Bitcoin transaction for example, and you you've measured that a centralization or decentralization of this stage Before it's included into the blockchain Yes, I mean every transaction is to be validated So yeah, so yeah, it will be in the pros of validation of this transaction how much time to take Okay. Yeah. Yeah, so it's before it's included into the blockchain, right? And or During doing the block the indication of the block you have multiple stages where one node might say, okay This is done. Okay another one. Okay mining. So it's in the process of creating this new block. Okay. Okay. Oh, okay Okay. Yeah, okay. Okay. So, okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Do you have anything to add or you want to say something? No, okay. Good. So I thank you very much for showing me for coming by and like letting us know that you just Like one and a half days, right? Yeah, did you stay overnight? Yeah. Wow. So you use one of the sleeping bag cushions. No Okay, obviously, okay. So thank you very much. Thank you. Yeah. Okay. And Yeah Okay, and now we continue with the best poster about so There's one poster by Eva Kalmar. It's about Blockchain readiness and you will talk about it now. Okay Okay Thank you So thank you very much for providing me the possibility to present my poster here in front of you and thank you very much Of course for the price of to be one of the best posters I'm Eva Kalmar. I represent here the science communication group of of tail out. This is a technical University and We actually do research on on science We are social scientific group and I represent here the Research what I did with the scientists based on virtual research environments so We I'm currently running a project which is about a coalition form to Innovating blockchain. So I was really happy to see that blockchain is happening also in the scientific world But then I thought that virtual research environments or if you can stop here Yeah, virtual research environments if you are into the e-science world Then you probably have heard about those. So these are online innovative tools which are based for communities These are designed for scientists to help the communication to help data sharing the data storage processes it has lots of Functionalities as you may see so it is a kind of safe environment users can lock in and they can put everything they want to and Of course, they have the possibility to add customized tools So if scientists need a special tool to analyze their data, that's also possible to put these in and If I just read out the all the state ones which were Promised regarding virtual research Environments you can directly find analogy to blockchain. So these were set to change drastically the science processes the research practices and make research faster and more efficient and Transparent and they were supposed to speed up the shift between fundamental and applied sciences So that is why then Okay, thanks. Yeah, okay So policymakers still at the EU are are really pushing the agenda of applying virtual research Environments, but scientists are reluctant to use it. I was investigating why and there are different factors You can see here in the slide that there are different Levels so that can be due to personal motivation. So science some scientists are really happy to use these tools But some are completely not motivated Some of them say that it's completely against their practices So they communicate only personally with each other they pick up the phone and then call the other person I'm not going to log in there are interpersonal Factors, which are related to the work culture. They are institutional Factors technological scientific one and of course relating to the funding agencies so if we Go to the next part Based on literature study and interviews with experts who are actually developing these virtual research environments and interviews with scientists who are using these and who don't use these environments I have generated and modified technology acceptance model Which is named for collaboration readiness So basically it is about What are the factors that affect the actual system use the virtual research environment use and It is relying on the behavior intention to use these tools and it is dependent on the attitude towards the computer systems And then there are the factors which are contributing into three different areas In the blockchain field, you can also see that the infrastructure readiness is really Investigated there is a lot of effort put on how the infrastructure should look like what are the requirements? It should be user-friendly usable interoperability standing there, but there are crucial factors on the other side as well So one of them is collaboration technology readiness, which is relating to communication Practices data management practices and also project management practices and based on my experience Scientists are really on a different level regarding these issues some of scientists share their data They are aware of using metadata But some just have a USB stick or not even that and PhD students leave with their data and not leave anything behind So there is a need for Education of scientists and taking along in the whole process so that they are able to use virtual research environments and see the added benefits of those At the top you can see the collaboration readiness, which are more psychological issues and more social issues like what are the The needs for the different institutions to work together. What is the type of collaboration and so on? So I suggest to use This information and this knowledge when you are building a blockchain for scientists, please do not leave out the users use Social scientific research methods to sit down with scientists ask their needs as their practices every day working practices How can blockchain fit to them? Otherwise, there is a huge chance that blockchain for science will not be used only by just a small minority the really enthusiastic crowd and Then at the bottom of the the poster there is a quote from Sonkel's book Whether they be social networking sites electronic laboratory notebooks or controlled vocabularies These must be built to help scientists to do what they are already doing not what the tool design there feels They should be doing. Thank you very much. Oh, thank you. Thank you very much Are there any questions comments Thank you very much. This is an excellent study We are providing such an environment for the researchers and We would really like to Start asking those questions and Maybe some kind of a collaboration in the future is needed because We find ourselves very much always like what should we do or what do they really need kind of a dilemma as well So we're looking forward for your publication Nice nice presentation. Did you do you have the data that enable you to a control by age or at least get a segmentation or stratification of Responses based on age. I mean, it's commonly thought that that older scholars are those that are that are tenured And we may have less vested interest in Putting the extra effort into using using tools such as this versus younger Academics pre-tenure and such may be more amenable to them. Do you have any of those data? Thank you again Can I quickly answer so? Yes, we have some data And it is surprising to see that the PhD students are more reluctant to use and share Information because they are afraid that they won't have any stable future so they are more close and more afraid than PI's and Yeah, there is a tendency. So there is a clear cut that there are PI's or principal investigators Who are really open-minded and then they are willing to use and they have this as a policy for the research group So then the research group is sharing and then using these issues if the PI is not then the rest of the group is It's cannot break these eyes Thanks again And then we have the second award Just want to say who was in the team. It was Lori low-poiser agenda and wait one second Excuse me Alexander Benedict and Lombard. Okay, and I The second post award when is repurposing open source tools for open science a practical guide and it's by Moritz Corina Thomas and Bela and you're going to present it, right? Okay Okay Yeah, we have a poster which is called repurposing open source tools for open science a practical guide and This is joint work with Corina Bela and Thomas who is who is not here? So what what we did? So I think the common vision of our team is to make science more efficient and To do that with this poster. We share our methods in particular the methods how we write Scientific papers with latex another mission is to make science more fair and to do that we record everything a step in Using the blockchain using the trusted time stamping Origin stamp another method or another goal of our research group is to make science reproducible and To do that. We don't do experiments like On the on the run, but we write a script that then has a clear plan What are the steps to do and then to objectively execute the experiment? And of course, we are all different people's we have different Habits so we want to Facilitate scientific collaboration and to achieve that we lower the barriers for or the technical barriers to collaborate so As I said so to to to make the scientific process more efficient. We don't want everybody to Re-invent workflows, so we publish our workflow and here We share on on this this github project seven step step-by-step guide how you can Collaboratively write your paper with with latex to do that We we use the version control system git And as a trusted time stamp stamping service origin stamp, which is tightly integrated so When we created a link from our github organization To origin stamp was only a single click so there's only one field You have to fill and then every repository open in your research group will automatically be time stamps So everything you upload to github gets time stamped and is there for reproducible So you can't change the history, which is normally possible with the version control system git As I said The other goal is that we can reproduce our experiments and to do that We reuse a well-known Continuous integration service From software development. We use a Travis, which is a service that automatically Initiates Virtual computers and then executes a scripted plan which can be for example in this use case to compile a latex paper But it can also be more complex tasks like running computer experiments To facilitate the scientific collaboration we use overlays because we We discovered that not everybody is a fan of latex And if some people in the team prefer to write their latex files using the eye and others prefer a more visual Interface we don't want to have this clash of technology Slowing down the scientific process. So we have different options to contribute to that and this overly as It's also integrated. So all the advantages we have with with git with time stamping and with Continuous integration services Automatically links if you change something using your virtual editor or your nice web ui It automatically propagates to git and it's automatically rebuilds the final outcome and of course we also have to Think about the next generation. So when when we are done Oh, we we upload scientific artifacts to to the nodal which is also nicely integrated to get so that's basically What what we presented at this poster? Yeah, so the idea for this project kind of initiated Was initiated because we saw there are all these open source tools already available So how can we maybe use them to do open science right now? And there are these amazing tools which are already being used But they're not being integrated into the cycle into the research cycle And so that's what we really proposed in our poster and our poster is still hanging in the poster room So during your coffee break just stop by and have a chat ask some questions Move it's an eye are from the University of Wuppa tile, which is near Cologne So if you're ever in that area as well Hi, and hope to see you later Very nice very nice. Yeah, so it's so it's like so obvious to do blockchain for science then right Yeah, okay, so are there any question comments are there any plans to convert this into some kind of a usable platform Or is it just a research test an idea? I mean we use it every day, so at least It's it's usable for us So and you can go to the website copy it and use it yourself so you can use it today You already have a good hub repo for your research then then very easy to use already So there's nothing else we would have to develop Other questions Okay, so you do the next session Yeah, cool, okay Yeah, hi, I'm Benedict And I'm happy to share together with Conrad first that is the the next session And it's gonna start with a period you in the blockchain. It's yours and Alex So please take the stage Good morning everyone. I'm Alex from catalysis Good morning. I'm yours from digital science First of all, it's nice to speak to a crowd that is very positive about blockchain for change So that's a good starter We go to the first slide. So we want to talk about our Blockchain for peer review initiative it's an initiative we started About half a year ago. I think a bit longer bit more. Yeah together with catalysis together with spring and nature Taylor and Francis Cambridge University Press and digital science And we want to talk today about progress about where we are what we aim to do with the initiative and also about lessons learned But I want to start with some general observations about blockchain for science and I think where we are at in our efforts and for me, it's it's a good moment because last year November we published the blockchain for research report And it's really amazing to see how much progress there is in the last year I think the first mentions of of blockchain and Application to research and scholarly communication was a few years ago. It started with some blog post I think 2017 was really the year of ideas Of course Sunke was instrumental very important that with his open documents And I think it's indication of you know your leadership that many of the ideas that you Actually suggested and proposed with your group are actually being realized at the moment So 2018 was really the idea at the year of of concrete applications So I haven't counted them, but I think we are in a dozens of applications. It's really encouraging At the same time, I think we're going to the next phase Which is and and the former speaker Ava talked about it is making sure it's actually used and I think that might be even more challenging than Thinking about it and building applications. So how can we move? The ecosystem how can we move researchers etc to use the blockchain? I think Albert Einstein said that politics is more difficult than physics And I think it's also the case for for a computer science So the big challenge really is going to be how can we make sure that this is going to be widely adopted in the industry? And I think that there are a couple of things that are going to be crucial in that First of all of course science and research didn't start yesterday It's it's something that is hundreds of years old and with that history becomes comes legacy Not only in technology, but also in processes in in culture and expectations And we have to also think about how to change that. So what is going to be the catalyst for us? So what is going to move the ecosystem to a new way of working? Is it going to be a government? Is it going to be funding or is it going to be researchers themselves? I think that's a very important question. We have to answer If it's about researcher, I actually liked your presentation very much I think it's very important to to make sure that they are on board and of course everybody's worried about openness about transparency about the metrics that are limited but at the same time of course the short-term goal of researchers is reputation and I think it's indeed It might be surprising on the first the first hand that young researchers are not open to new tools But I think it's very logical if you think about that they have to build their career So they have to build their publications and citations. So it's very important that we address the reputation aspect in blockchain The last remark I want to make is about open science I think it's a no-brainer that science has to be more open more transparent. I hear a echo. Is that just me? Do you still hear me? At the same time open science means different things and we have to think differentiate them and really think about what to focus here Open science means sometimes not commercial So getting the commercial companies out of the ecosystem It can also mean open access Which is of course a separate thing I mean open access doesn't mean that the commercial companies are not going to be involved in more So what are we focusing on? At the same time open access as a model also has its disadvantages Of course, I mean we have been around in this industry for 20 years The first talks about open access started 20 years ago, and we're still about 30% of the articles That are open access now. There are many reasons for that, but with open access also came some disadvantages Pre-publishing for example or the the challenges for researchers from the global south to get published And I think we should be open actually to alternatives Because the blockchain actually offers an alternative. That's micro payments. So let's also see whether that might be a more sustainable business model for the future Open science also means open data Of course, and I think there especially with blockchain we have huge opportunities with tokenization and ensuring intellectual property And sometimes it's also used in open peer review, and I think that's actually yet another topic Because the reason of course there is single blind and double blind models is not it's not because of commercial interest It's because of course confidentiality and Ensuring that that researchers are feel free to give a candid feedback on articles So without any giving any recommendation. I think it's important that we distinguish those those experts of open open science So let's talk about our initiative What we try to do with our initiative is solve one Challenging aspect of scholarly communication at the moment, and it's peer review And there are actually many challenges First of all Peer review is not recognized the way it should be Again researchers are mostly valued or assessed by a number of publications and citations But there are activities that are equally important and peer review of course is a very important one there And yes, there are efforts definitely. There's publons There's orchids of course, but still it's not as recognized as other activities are There's an increasing difficulty to find suitable reviewers There are more and more publications there are more and more publications from China and they are making Big developments in terms of publication, but they're not participating in the review process as much Yet so that's puts a lot of strains on the existing reviewer pool unfortunately, there are cases of fraud manipulation leading to retraction and Basically, the peer review process is just simply too much of a black box. I Think John Tennant said once we have to open the black box of peer review And I think exactly that's what we need. We have to be more open more transparent and Show more about what the press process entails Because again, it leads to a lack of transparency and it's a lack of trust in science And again, if you look at the problems around irreducibility and and frauds and manipulation, it's really something we have to work on Then the question is of course, what do we do about it? So what our mission is what we feel is that if we allow all the participants in the ecosystem to share the review information That's gonna make that's gonna solve Many of the problems I talked about For example, when you talk about finding a reviewer publishers are more or less dependent on their own Database of of reviewers But of course if you consider to select a reviewer for the review process It's very good to know that that the reviewer also did a review is for comparable journals at other publishers It's also great to know that hey that reviewer I might invite him or her But here he or she is actually involved in another peer review process at the moment So it might not be wise to invite the reviewer at the moment So we can coordinate the review process and make it more efficient by starting to share the information Recognition also of course starts with having your data If you don't know what the review process who reviewed what you can't recognize them so if we collect on a structural way information about review review process and the reviewers we can also properly recognize them And of course transparency We have predatory publishers. We have reviewer process which are not entirely incorrect if we Store information again the metadata about the review process We create an auditable trail so that we in case of questions increase of concerns We can always go back to the blockchain and show actually the review to place or didn't take place but it really adds to the transparency aspect of the Of the peer review process um very important aspect and We are Building a private blockchain within the ecosystem. So all the participants In peer review we invite to join us So we have the purposes I mentioned already we have orchids Which which joined as well and also important the funders Because the review process for journals is now more or less separated from the review process from the funders equally important But of course there's a big overlap between Those that review papers those that review funds. They're also combining that information will make the process more efficient and more transparent So what did you do exactly and where we are? We are now we build a proof of concept which we delivered in September according to planning, which is remarkable And in a proof of concept we're testing three things Within the range of possibilities to validate the process so that we using the blockchain can independently validate the review process So we don't have to rely on the publisher itself Recognition concretely whenever a reviewer Performs a peer review for the journals that are connected to the system Information about that is automatically sent to orchids but it adds to the recognition aspect and search so already starting to To use the system to make searching finding and selecting the right reviewer Combining the information from from from from multiple journals and multiple publishers more efficient And for the more technical details give the word to Alex Thanks, your is for the central So I'm from catalysis catalysis is extremely young in this industry only one year. So we have very fresh view Maybe a bit naive but what we Would like to do as a company is to democratize the value of online contents and to do that we leverage blockchain technology So our vision and it's not actually Contained to academia. It's more broad in terms of publishing is really to tie together the what we see is the three actors of the three main actors in this in in this this world of Creating and consuming digital contents. So we have contributors Who are interested in having their work attributed to them? Compensated as well You have consumers who want relevant contents, of course, and they want it to be available easily they wanted to be of a decent quality and they wanted at a fair price and You also have people who check the quality of the contents So reviewers so we believe that they seek appreciation sometimes compensation and also being able to comments truly rather than just want to make sure that They they commented so they want safety and being able to be To give their comments. So that's how we view how eventually the landscape should be So, how do we do this? So we're a tech company so we build on top of a Blockchain implementation using an Ethereum virtual machine and we build various modules That's basically provide specific functionality. So for instance, we have a micropayment modules, which allows you to get money from the Existing banking system so no cryptocurrencies are in and outs We have ways to identify content uniquely and register ownership and various of the modules that you can then sort of tie together into a Proper solution. So right now we have two solutions. We have a micropayment solutions So for instance, should you have a blog and should you have loads of friends or fans who are willing to pay for what you write? We provide a WordPress plugin that allows you to Effectively provides on payments for your blogs, but that's more the commercial publishing space in the peer review space we basically take some of these modules and Put them together to build what I will be discussing a bit more in a minute So to do this we stand on the shoulders of giant. We don't reinvent everything. We do not build our own blockchain There's just not enough time for this. So our starting point is The ethereal virtual machine, which is in the middle. However, we do not necessarily wants to be tied to a lot of other great projects that are pushed on the blockchain therefore we use a Great blockchain technology a tendermint, which for those of you who were there yesterday have heard a lot about so we use this as our consensus engine and it exposes to us an ethereum virtual machine and All of our top layer stack is swift Which is a very nice language So then what do we do with it? So we build our own libraries on top of the EDM so we have a number of smart contracts which we interact with using libraries that we've built and Because the libraries end up being in a server-side environment We also have access to traditional technologies such as databases or payment Systems we can enter interface with mobile clients web applications You name it the interesting aspect of using the EDM is that we're not tied just to Tendermints as a consensus engine so we can actually Replace that bottom layer by a number of other blockchain inventations. Of course there's ethereum There's quorum from JP Morgan. There's burrow from Onax and Yeah, and we use that for minutes So let's go a bit deeper in how we build this So we provide a parser which extracts information from Manuscript management systems Which are basically where the reviews are done We process this data by chopping it up into various Categories the three categories that what I will go over in the next slide and We push some of that data in the blockchain We push some of that data to orchids which interestingly enough helps a researcher to start to To annotate their profiles with information that can be verified on a blockchain So yesterday Rob had a question around. Oh, what if I have 20 different profiles? Then the thing is once you start to accumulate Information that pertains to your profile in one profile Effectively, it's not in your best interest to start to have 20 profiles because you don't link the profiles so we start to give more value to a profile and The way orchid is done, of course It's not just us that can add value other parties can add value and then you can have a complete profile, which is more interesting On the top we have a peer review query system So that's that's an interesting part because that's the that's the part that allows us to open up the data that you may not want to store on the blockchain to external parties and This process resides very close to where the data is stored Which means that as a commercial party, for instance, you're able to Selectively grant access to data that you have within your company Based on very sort of sophisticated permissioning systems, which are stored on the blockchain Which means that you can use the best of both worlds as then you can share some data on the blockchain But the things which you feel shouldn't be shared just publicly. You're also able to share it and control access to it So taking a step back, how do we partition the data? So functionally we have three types of data We have public data, which we're okay and Parties who want to work with our technology are okay to share publicly. So it's data that's You should assume that you give it away No one will a or everyone will be able to access it forever. It's a blockchain after all For us that means relationship between entities so for instance relationship between a an anonymized ID Which represents a reviewer for instance and a manuscript? It represents the states in which a review is so for instance if I've been invited to review a paper It it stores when I've been invited it stores when I come back with my reviews It doesn't store the review itself. However, it's stored It stores potentially ways to go back into the review information So the second one is personal information. So of course, we will never store any Data which can identify me or any reviewer on the blockchain? Because then it's there forever and then we have a problem with the European authorities around GDPR We store information that allows People to claim that they are part of relationship and Then the last one is competitive information. So that's how I explained that our query engine allows you to expose data Externally without giving away the control so effectively how this translates is that the blockchain stores references Which are protected using a permission system back to internal systems So the data flow High level the publisher provides us with data So in this slide, we've mostly extracted The the high level data that we store to as an example So what we get is a manuscript which is tied to a reviewer And which has a specific review states we process it first so that we extract the information that allows us to identify people uniquely and We have a mechanism whereby we can then Hand over to an orchid profile, for instance And if people do not have an orchid profile or do not want to take ownership of this information That's also okay, but it means that the data that we will store in the blockchain is basically useless for anyone forever and The we annotates the data that then goes in the blockchain with this unique identifier So we design this unique identifier such that it's not possible So let's say if you review for two different manuscripts, you will have two different unique identifier So that you cannot sort of try to do some statistical analysis on who has done what and come up with the identity of the person so What I've described is basically a nodes in our blockchain system. So how would it work then? Then it's really multiple participants who are able to give access to their internal data To other participants. So the way we started We were working with spring in nature tiller and Francis Cambridge University Press Cargher joined recently and we're feeding our data to orchids and really the blockchain is this this this connector in the middle which allows the information to flow between All the parties but also to aggregate the information of all the parties So then I've added a question mark, which is anyone else who would be interested to add more data to the system The little people on the sides are basically also the fact that while we do currently use a Private blockchain it's mostly because at the end of the day blockchain is a very very young technology and Yesterday we talked about how actually it's difficult to provide a system that is perfect Day one which means that you do not need to perform any upgrades or this and that and We realize that we're not at the stage where we can say there will never be any upgrades so we want to at least for the next couple of months keep enough control of that system so that we can go through multiple upgrade cycles and at one point be able to say with confidence, okay, we open it up and people can start to use it and We're also aiming eventually to provide an API so that people can add more services on top of it So now I'm gonna go through an example Of what you could do with this as Juris says in September we completed the first part of the proof of concept Which is mostly a backend system But there's no UIs and without UIs no one's ever gonna use it So the next step for us is to start to implement It's a user interfaces which will make it extremely easy and obvious as to what the benefits of such a system is So let me take you through an example now So let's say a publisher Through their own internal systems have a certain view on a reviewer So they can see that this professor Aldous Dumbledore has done a number of reviews for them But it looks like this guy is actually not really interested in doing any reviews if you look at some of the statistics for instance, you see that the acceptance rate is relatively low and The most reviews are not delivered within expected times you have no clue whether the guy is available or not and You don't know if he's engaged in any other reviews than your own because effectively you have your own view Now you go to another publisher for instance It's the same thing they have their own view and for this one actually this guy is actually top-notch, right? He's really delivering things on time and all the time he accepts a review and Yeah, they're very happy with him third publisher has yet a different view and the pattern I'm starting to expose there is that The the axis we basically have every party has access to part of the data and what we aim to do with this blockchain is to Allow people to share some of the data so that instead of doing statistics on a subgroup You can start to do statistics on a bigger Group so when we tie all this information together What you could get to is actually a much better picture of what reality is So that's quite interesting Now what if we expose this to third parties or more people who have access to this information And who can also add some more information on that blockchain for instance What if this professor? Actually is extremely willing to state that not only right now. They have nothing to do So they're available for reviews, but also they are gonna go on holiday in a couple of or they've gone on holiday already And they are on holiday also now, but what if you could also push that information on the system? then effectively you can start seeing that you can continue to enhance the information and Take this even further because you can give an even better view of what? Your current availability is So that's one example of what could be done with such a system and the back end is There so we're seeding it with data More or less as we speak And we're hoping to work on the UI sides in the next couple of months and now I'll hand it over to yours Last couple of slides Maybe something about the the planning so again, it's very early days. We are more or less half here down the road but Yeah, this of course will be successful if all Participants in the ecosystem contributed all journals basically Share their data and funders and institutions for example start to use the data as well. So when we tested the proof of concept Then it would definitely for next year. We will add more participants We go to the MVP a summer plan for the summer of 2019 and now we're discussing with the participants And what kind of functionality would like to see in there? And of course indeed is going to be a mixture of making sure we have a robust back end But also showing functionality that really triggers publishers editors with also researchers again to get To ensure that the adoption is higher But again, this is all still something that has to be decided I Want to end with some lessons learned a Couple of of things that that really surprised us or positive or negative one is Einstein said politics is more difficult than than physics, but Legal is even more difficult Especially of course because of the GDPR Implementation legal teams are extremely cautious. And of course we understand that The complexity here, of course is that we're talking about blockchain is a new technology So, yeah, really the delays we suffered are really partly due because of legal consideration GDPR and Explaining and what it entails taking away the worries is really taking a lot of our a lot of our efforts The second is managing the hype Hype can be a good thing because it means people talk about it But it can also mean a negative thing it can that people for example They are interested for the wrong reasons or they they don't really understand what what what it is So it's really make finding the balance of using the hype and sometimes steering away from it for example by stressing the advantages for the reviewers and the authors and not not even talking about blockchain sometimes sometimes that just simply helps and The third is again tied to that Yes, it's patience and education We are in an extremely early phase Again, only the last couple of years and we should be really patient We should not think expect big changes next year or even the year after but we should really steadily Work towards improving the ecosystem in various ways With I think the long-term in mind Because if we rush too much people might be disappointed and the hype can really work against us So we did I would like to end Thank you very much and welcome any questions So there's one question right next to me and the others who have a question just raise your hand and I come and get bring the microphone Thanks for the nice talk very nice concept in the idea I would like to go a little back to the to the initial part that you said that you have kind of all planning to have a non-profit organizations running this and I think governance and The concept behind this would be very interesting because you know, we Scientific community we had the issue that we basically relying too much on on commercial entities and are kind of locked in this and From this was like really like that. You are going for for non-profit What is what is the aim and how can people participate in there and houses government actually this would be my key questions here Yeah, yeah, it's a very a very good question You have scientists complaining about I don't want to have yet another system have to work with and equally you have publishers that That say I don't want to have another non non-for-profit body that I have to work with The good news is that in academic community, of course, we have fantastic organizations that already work on a non-for-profit basis to improve certain aspects of scholarly communication or kids of course is a fantastic example, but also crossref You have trade organizations like STM So on the long term it might very well be that's that's the organization will be you know placed on the one of these Again, we don't want to have yet another body The good thing about crossref for example is that like 4,000 publishers are already part of it So that the confidence could be very well Fitted there, but again, that's that's all for the future, but I definitely think that's that's an avenue we have to explore Hi, I'm warning. That's a really good presentation I'm curious about the first thing you talked about where you said there are a lot of papers coming in from China and not enough reviewers and I didn't really understand how your particular system addresses that problem Yeah, it's it's It means that we have to stress more on coordination it means that we have to give the editors the tools To pinpoint the right editors. It means that we have to make sure that reviewers are not inundated with review requests So again, if we can make it more efficient if we can give the reviewers the tool to say I would not select that reviewer because he's not gonna answer because he's doing two other reviews or hey look at that reviewer He's actually new in the field and he you know, he raises his hand Please let me do a review for the journal and we can basically make it more efficient and therefore Again degrees the review times Yeah Yeah Yeah, I think definitely another efforts on the way I mean the publishers are doing that themselves for example again We cannot solve that's a very good point to make blockchain cannot solve all the problems and are definitely people recognize this so this is This is definitely something that is that is being worked on. It's we don't see it as our responsibility We just want to make sure that things are more efficient so that you know the pressure is managed in a more efficient way Hi Here in the back. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Yeah, so I just I just had land breakfast and I watched the Presentation I had to rush back to comment on that because I watched in the last few they have to tell you I'm friendly But this is not blockchain for science and I would even say that what you're doing doesn't even require a blockchain, right? so it's basically a presentation of an engineering approach to to the problem of peer review that does not exist and It's actually quite dystopian, you know, you're throwing around with terms like identity you showed this Example of having this Gryffindor Person and then you might even want to tie in his holiday plans I mean, I think it's great at Cambridge University wants to work with you But I think that's the reason why then I wouldn't want to work there anymore because it's just terrible This is not how research works and I mean, it's just a engineering approach Rally writing on the on the blockchain hype. Okay, but it's not what really blockchain Means in the context of knowledge creation Thank you for your opinion at the end of the day, and I think it came through prior talks Where I mean if you As a scientist you need to use tools a Lot of scientists are happy to build their tools others are not interested in building tools The previous presentation was about taking open source tools and trying to fit them so that they could become something useful This is also what we're trying to do if you don't find it useful. That's absolutely fine We believe it serves a purpose Hopefully it will otherwise someone else will come up with something else, but thanks for your opinion Thanks guys for the presentation I wanted to ask address this question Alex to you mentioned that you the reason why you're using a private blockchain is because you want to Test a lot of things before you go public. Why not use test net then? One answer crypto kitties Basically and maybe so I have a corporate background for for a while I don't like when I'm not able to control a system. That's Allows me to guarantee a certain level of of Usability for the people who use it the problem with test nets or a theorem or any public blockchain is that Because you have this original goal of being open to anyone who wants to use your system it means that you're also accepting to share resources and for certain things, it's okay, but I believe that's if you want to be able to provide a system with Any level of granularity of a reliability you need to have more control on what you have to give you an example I am not sure that CERN will allow anyone to use the Their their their systems for instance because they want to come up with their nice physics experiments Simply because you need to be able to control what's The systems you use to be able to get to proper measurements So we could use a test net especially at the current stage because we don't have any scalability issues or anything yet however, we would be exposed at later stage to someone coming up with an amazing app such as crypto gitties that then takes down the network and We don't have much to say to the people who use our system Correct the though again, I mean the Ethereum community is doing an enormous amount of work to be able to scale the blockchain Personally as the technologists I'm much more comfortable with the approach that tandem intakes and I would for now go for that. However, we've kept this compatibility compatibility layer which allows us to switch back to a theorem at one point if we're If we get to the point where we think it's better So there are actually many questions, but the time for the slot is over. Do we allow more questions? Yeah, okay Cool, so then you Could you please clarify what are the incentives for scientists to switch to your system in their articles and reviews Yeah Actually, I think it might very well be the case that scientists don't realize that they're using the blockchain Because we're not replacing the existing system. We're not placing submission systems. We're not replacing Any of the tools they work the only thing that what we want to do with the blockchain works in the background So that's again the selection of the reviewer is better So the reviewer will just notice In the end that he gets more targeted invitations that he can proactively indicate their interest That's the and the office will realize that the review times become smaller So again, it's not a system that that's we will That the the research themselves will actively work with it's Again the publishers and the institutions and things like orbit will interact with the system Do you have any? Forms of like appeal or accountability within your system. Why you know, what's the point of the open peer review and? Immutable record of it. What's the point of sorry open peer review? Yeah, what's the point of the immutable record and the trail of the record if I'm asking you to have any systems of appeal or accountability for the review process or if I do a review and it's biased what's what's You know, how how is your open? blockchain Immutable record solves the problem of the bias Very good question If you look at it in a different way so right now We're we're building a system and we're opening it up to Big publishers who have access to a lot of review data and and smaller publishers also but the main point there is that We do not build a system that only big publishers can use We hope that at one point anyone who is Custodian of such data can see the data there then because it's an open system. It's a blockchain. It's immutable. It's public We also hope that everyone can decide whether they feel that if they see for instance in an Orchid profile That someone has done a review for a given journal from a given publisher They may decide that they think oh these guys I hate them and I don't like what they do what they write So I rate them as maybe 10% trustability That's for everyone to decide Maybe as an individual you want sort of only to work with certain Publishers who have specific ways of working that you believe in in which case it's all good Our system doesn't preclude you from doing this on the contrary. It allows you to basically be able to choose What source you want to use and at the end of the day maybe in 10 20 years time all The big publishers and the small publishers that we can't really know about maybe they won't be there anymore Maybe they will but that's not for us to decide the markets and you guys as researchers as scientists will decide and If they're still there then maybe the answer will be at the end of the day They do provide some service that is good enough. Maybe it's not perfect But it's good enough what we hope is that we provide a way to give choice. That's it And so as as someone who's had a lot of papers rejected One of the really frustrated One of the really frustrating parts of the scientific publishing process is that you go through the review process Your paper gets rejected and then you start all over again with a different journal with a different publisher and also as a reviewer What is also really frustrating is that you review a paper you give constructive feedback the paper gets rejected and You might as well have not given all that constructive feedback So what would be incredibly useful would be a system where the reviews can be passed between journals And so you're not starting from scratch and I know that some Publishers do that like within their own Sweep of journals but doing that cross would be would be really cool Yeah, that's actually that's actually we have two slides decks And that's actually the fourth point on one of the other slide decks portability and it's definitely one of the things we're aware So recognition transparency Review coordination and portability Indeed in the case of cascades that that you can give permission to one publisher to the other saying please take over this review Process and here's access for example review board, but also in case for example the ownership change of a journal We can come along so that's definitely on the agenda All right, we are already running a bit late. Thank you very much for this talk if you have a question, please Catch Alex and Yoris in the break. Thank you again So in the next talk is the future of indexing and secondary Publishing and blockchain based approach Dave Kosher cool. Good morning next presentation The it's good to be here again. We were artifacts was at this conference last year. We had just formally organized the the organization and Had yet yet to release a product It's wonderful to see the progress that that the folks Here in the room today and many that aren't represented here have made in this made in this field We what I'm here today to really speak to is is the future of indexing and secondary publishing and I have a colleague of mine Jason Rawlins whom some of you may may have already met and I'd encourage you to To catch up with Jason here over the course of today We're also going to be at the work attending the workshop tomorrow and Thursday where we will be focusing on showing our products Both what's currently live. What's in our near term and medium term road development roadmap So our vision where I'd where I'd really like to begin is is a reference And I'd like to also echo a theme that the Eorus and Alex began this morning and it has to do with recognition Eugene Garfield Quoting a Robert Merton the Merton description of normal science describes citations as the currency of science scientists make payments in the form of citations to their preceptors Our vision the artifacts vision is to change the outdated inefficient process of how researchers receive credit for their work Breaking through existing delays and constraints Empowering researchers to collaborate in real time Share their work earlier in the process and get credit They deserve every step of the way advancing both their careers and simultaneously advancing research So scholarly communications today the published article is principally the single format of discoverable research today Citations that are critical to discovery and research or reputation are formerly recorded for only a subset of published articles in indexes that are deeply retrospective break prone and inconsistent and Until artifacts arrived on the scene. There is no mechanism for linking and associating Related and valuable research artifacts this inhibits discovery or research attribution cannot be formally received now those of you who are researchers and Who are tenured or pre-tenured? You all recognize that research researchers depend on and universities spend hundreds of millions of dollars each year for these limited indexing and attribution tools and While we know that research is that discovery is is a critical input to research and innovation worldwide Those same limited data sets those same limited indexes are relied upon for measuring performance determining determining hiring practices as well as As well as tenure reviews Tim Berners Lee talks about has talked about all of the data that's merely sitting in scientists computers and currently not shared The Dora declaration good science is good science regardless of where it is published And we would cut we would add to that by saying regardless of whether it's published Because as we all know there's a great deal of valuable science and knowledge that is never published Let alone index And as John has pointed out We're basically applying a 17th century communications format Here we are in 2018 Now the lack of change in everyone yesterday and probably throughout the rest of today will lament The slowness of change here, and this is not merely. It's not just a technical technology problem This is a reputation recognition and attribution problem from the artifacts perspective So the model of scholarly communications that we like to begin with Moving from left to right a project begins Perhaps it's pre-funding some research is done a funding application is submitted funding is received The research begins the data the information the artifacts that researchers generate throughout that initial and continuing phase of their research Activities continues to build that knowledge then it begins to compress and it compresses into an article form factor and That further compresses in peer review because not all the manuscripts that are that are authored that are submitted are accepted for publication and There is delay in that acceptance Ultimately works are taken through peer review, and we're hopeful that blockchain applications such as Such as what yours and Alex walked through will begin to take hold in this arena, but ultimately these published works Only a minority of them are indexed Only 20% of the scientific technical medical publications Are indexed 80% of that content Not being indexed makes it extremely difficult to find those resources let alone any of the artifacts that are associated with those publications So artifacts allows research outputs to be indexed and cited from the earliest stages of research Creating persistent link at persistent and linked chains of these transactions so in brief Everything is indexed in real time while research is underway with all artifacts linked and searchable Intellectual property is established and managed by the creator. We very much respect the creator owner relationship of intellectual property and Transactions can occur there where intellectual intellectual property rights move certainly That's the case with a manuscript, but it can also be the case with other artifacts that are generated throughout throughout the research effort Citations can be given at any point to research outputs at any time So we're breaking the barriers and the boundaries of only being able to cite an article only being able to cite a monograph Possibly cite a patent We're essentially enabling citation Citations to be given to any type of research this facilitates we believe community sharing and We'll lower the barriers and the resistance and the fears and risks that as we learned earlier Early early stage researchers are oftentimes Withholding information and that's a common behavior throughout most scientific disciplines And what we believe we're providing is transparent and consistent data set that creates the ability for new types of analytics and dimensionality to citations So for example today if Jason and I author a paper We submit it to the catalysis system It's process. It's published We're indexed Perhaps by one of the indexes that are widely used and One of you picks up our research you conduct your work You eventually publish and our index you cite us now that may occur that citation May occur five seven years down the line We're pleased to receive a citation We have no idea why you cited us and so the dimensionality here that we speak of is providing contextual information metadata around a citation that illustrates or that describes The reason for the citation is it a confirmation? It were were was the other party unable to reproduce results. It could be anything in between or or beyond that Now the artifacts platform. We believe can begin to address Certainly contribute to addressing many of the issues that that are listed here whether it's certainly focused on reputation research integrity Peer review we believe we can we can facilitate and compliment reproducibility definitely and data access But here's the crux of the challenge in secondary publishing Right primary publishers are the parties that that publish the articles and the monographs Secondary publishing is the echo effect. It's the indexing of the research itself, right? Well, the fundamental problem in this in this field is that none of these if you think of these indexes as bank accounts None of these indexes agree none of the balances agree which one is correct? Why is it correct? Which should we use? Which does our institution require? Which would I prefer? I mean the numbers here are vastly different Google Scholar has nearly 68,000 citations Web of science has a couple of different numbers itself and that depends upon the content that is being viewed and used to accumulate those and measure those citations if this were your bank account and You received which bank would you rather go to right? We'd all rather go to Google here But if this were your bank account It would make the entire system highly suspect So the artifacts research workflow platform, which is live and in the wild today We released it in March of this year enables researchers and scientists to do three simple things Establish proof of existence authorship and confirm provenance at any time protect and manage intellectual property While concurrently and importantly we believe facilitating knowledge and content sharing To provide and receive valid breakproof attribution and assignment of credit at any point of research So not only are we enabling Researchers to establish proof of existence proof of authorship, but we chain those Artifacts together if it is a if it is an artifact that evolves over time a data set a draft manuscript a Protocol etc Those modifications those version changes are chained together as well as the relationship of the set of artifacts That are involved that are associated with the overall research project So to make this happen now, we need more than the perspective solution and the perspective solution is what we launched As a as an early-stage release in March, that's what I've been speaking of But let me turn attention to the added component that's necessary here what we call the retrospective system We've added an historical index here because when artifacts launched in March It began to accumulate users started using it It began to accumulate artifacts from live projects from live work that was being conducted and that content is Progressively building over time, but we also know that scholars and scientists need to claw back need to reach back Into the literature and the research information that's available So we know we knew we needed to add some historical content Historical research index that that that we will bring forward that we're bringing forward it will be better than today's existing tools We're going to leverage the power of the community and provide systemic rigor That's required of an authoritative research solution and will maintain research support through Community ownership So we will use a token-based system that will bring unprecedented curatorial power here So to model this out for you in terms of how the knowledge and how the information content builds over time This first view illustrates how the how the progressive index is Is is building out content? As we add the historical index initially it comes in as an over 200 million record machine index data set Well, there are lots of machine index data sets out there, right? But the curatorial power that we will bring to bear here is that we will rely on the community to correct those flaws fill those gaps and Augment the historical record so if your name is misspelled in a publication if your If there are is other if there are other errors in the bibliographic information if for example the indexing that had been done Didn't pick up four of your references because the indexer didn't also happen to index those publications All of this historical content can be improved To be sure There are gaps even in the 20% of the literature that's indexed there are errors and flaws and gaps in that index furthermore the community of researchers we believe will then go back to their prior publications and Augment them with the research artifacts that are associated with them and we believe the reason they will do this the incentive for them to do this is That this added knowledge is going to enable them to improve their Ability to be recognized to be discovered to be credited and overall contribute to the success of their research careers So how does the system work and why will it work? It combines a token with a community Engaged in curation activities. So a token will be used as compensation for for curation Community member holds tokens for stake in a star in the historical index and they're able to spend it on Services and that's not a that's not a one-for-one trade-off the stake that researchers that the community Creates for themselves in building that historical index will continue to grow over time and Give them governance rights and Authority over that historical index and ultimately ownership the structure that we're that we're applying here for that ownership is to Create is to imbue a public benefit corporation with these tokens So many of you would know the company Patagonia Patagonia is structured as a PBC a public benefits corporation and that enables a nice hybrid of a If you will a commercial entity to engage actively in commercial in in public good Not only will we give the community rights and ownership over this historical index, but artifacts will Feed proceeds back to the research community in the form of funding that this community Governing the allocation of those funds will be able to allocate to research Not that we're anticipating becoming the next national institutes of health that annually funds 32 billion a year in Research, but we do want to make sure we find a way to give it back to the community and that's the vehicle so the community The community recognition for curating levels and expertise and quality there will be challenges and quests as I referred to earlier There are gaps and errors and flaws in the historical index My colleagues and I Jason and I have worked for many years building those indexes And we're quite familiar with where they are and we know where to point the research community to make further improvements and enhancements in an important point here in the trailer is that We're not the first to ask researchers to contribute to building something Particularly in the area of indexes and archives But in the past they receive nothing tangible for this effort Perhaps other than personal gratification And they ultimately own nothing here. They will receive incentives recognition and own what they build so The the ecosystem here that I'm illustrating Our concept is and our vision is to coexist within the existing Research and development ecosystem. We're realists We respect open science We also respect that there is an extremely mature and diverse set of stakeholders that Facilitate both the funding of science the creation of science and the communication of science and we believe it's incumbent upon us To operate and and to play nice with it with all stakeholders Our intention is to live in the researchers work flowing and engage with trusted enterprises. So I'm hopeful that maybe perhaps not as soon as this conference next year But in the near future We won't be talking about blockchain applications. You know the subtitle of my talk won't be a blockchain approach It will be how we live in the researchers workflow and facilitate in advance their research their career goals So I've spoken about the researchers a bit the bottom comment the lower circle in the lower left I think is important because that illustrates our intention to Integrate and interoperate in the tools and applications that researchers are using so that artifacts is operating in the background In the future, you won't even have to know that artifacts is there if you're in an electronic lab notebook and Where where where your labs at data are all being compiled and so forth We'll provide a plug-in. We'll provide an API or work with that that third-party's application so that Proof of existence proof of creation citations given and such can operate as Researchers are using the tools that their customary their customary in their in their daily workflow, but also importantly Beyond the index that we're building and the expansion of knowledge that we believe it will deliver It's incumbent on us to interoperate With all of the key stakeholders whether they're funding organizations universities publishers corporate R&D organizations and Societies and certainly the open community as a co-founder of orchid. I'm I'm Extremely pleased to hear Rob's presentation yesterday and hear the progress that they've that they've made There's much more to do there. I think I think we all recognize that it's it's also nice to be able to also say that you know the the persistent Identifiers that Rob spoke of yesterday artifacts is in a position to support those They're machine-readable and they are persistent and and supporting that pit infrastructure is valuable Not only for the open community. It's valuable for research broadly This is just a bit on our timeline We're we're pleased with our progress and we're we're also Frustrated as any developer as any new developer would be on the time that it takes to actually bring product and evolve product to market And the points that yours made earlier about legal legal complications and constraints Certainly compounds the challenge in this market. We're extremely pleased to have University of Saskatchewan as our first academic partner That's standing up a node for for artifacts. They will become an important both research partner and entrusted node in supporting our system our co-founders are listed here across the top our advisors across the bottom and And again Jason Rollins who drives our product development efforts very pleased to be here today our vision You've seen this before with the exception of the final point at the bottom We want to let scientists do science Thank you So we have a few minutes for questions. There's one Thank you for the nice presentation as a science communication professional. I remembered my article from 2014 published in genome biology And it is mentioning a Kardashian index for scientists who are at the social media and I dissecting The social the scientific results to the public Can that be an artifact? Can that be part of artifact? Yeah, the platform what scientists actually share with the society Can a museum exhibit with the expertise of a scientist be part of the artifacts? So so clarify again what the specific artifact there is What is the artifact there? Yes Yes, yes, so I Think that the simplest way to think of artifacts is that any digital Representation can become an artifact and if it's sightable Whether it's sighted or not it certainly can become an artifact. So if it's a blog comment Yes, although I'd have to say that our focus here is around is around enabling citations to citable materials So any type of any type of contribution that researcher makes That is in digital form certainly can become an artifact. Yes okay That's an interesting thing and you do you have any plans to? Influence like what will be an artifact like in terms of like the size or I mean a tweet can like contain a great idea or Like a one-shot picture of like a new finding can be like very important We're all like other things can be very long and unimportant So and you have you have it now in your hand to influence its culture, right? Well, yes, I think Influence is is a yes. I think we're in a position to influence I think we're very much going first of all there is no restriction in terms of file size Or the type of information content and I should also point out that artifacts never takes possession or control of the content We certainly have a facility where researchers can can store content, but we interface with commonly used Commonly used resources dropbox github and others and in a corporate R&D setting We would certainly engage with with any private storage facilities. We don't take control and ownership of the artifact We can influence this process, but we're very much going to turn those types of questions back to the research community and Specifically the scientometric community to help us help us determine I Speak of contextually relevant citations Well, we have our ideas as to what context should be should that a citation should be should be Incorporated in a citation But we don't we don't want to be the party to try to unilaterally push our views on the research community That needs to emerge from the community itself So that's a great example of if it is a citable item We want the scientometric bibliometric community to help us work through the the metadata Requirements for contextual relevance if that addresses your question. Yeah, yeah Thank you for the very interesting talk Dave I had a question you said the University of Saskatchewan is has the first trusted node for university partner Can you elaborate a little bit on the blockchain technology? You're using is it a permissions? Ethereum blockchain or what exactly is it sure sure so we're we're in a We're betwixt in between we're in the process of migrating so when we initially stood artifacts up Stood the in a release the the product in March We were using we were using an off-chain variant of Ethereum and Transactions were recorded and able to be viewed through Robston now That was basically a test environment for us to have something that was up and working We had a we have a product we had a project workspace to be able to accumulate artifacts to be able to associate artifacts To give and receive attribution and so forth We're in the process now of In the next print or two probably the second sprint from where we sit today that we won in mark There will be one in November and one Probably six weeks down the road. We're in the process of migrating to hyper ledger sawtooth Now in terms of nodes these are permissioned nodes So we envision having some n number of permissioned nodes that support this ecosystem We our preference is to have representation from the key types of stakeholder organizations Again universities as we start with Saskatchewan funding organizations publishers certainly Societies and and the open and the open community so it will be a permissioned node system and There are several reasons for that Maybe the two to highlight are the economics It's a it's very cost-effective with a kind with a volume of transactions that this system over time needs to scale to It will be very cost-effective to take that approach Secondly, it's important for us to engage with the organizations that house or directly support the researchers Whom we want to use a system so whether they're funders whether the universities all of those stakeholder organizations, we believe that adopt standing up a node as Trusted parties will have an incentive to encourage their their communities to use the system that answers your question Sure, so and we have one last question here Yeah, I'm really sorry about this. I'm really curious about your name artifacts because in physics and the natural sciences And in signal processing artifacts are actually an error. You've seen your experiments. It does not exist So when you sending a paper, maybe you have an image and you say oh, this is like the greatest thing in the world Mm-hmm, and it's actually a piece of dust. We call that an artifact And so I'm actually quite curious about your name generation here because yeah, yes That's an interesting fact that we were we were perhaps not aware of the the derivation of the name art from the social sciences humanities set of disciplines art and Facts from if you will the hard sciences sciences So it's an attempt to be a supportive across all disciplinary fields and such. Thank you for that comment All right. Thanks So it's a great pleasure to announce the next speaker Lambert Heller from TAB in Hannover Lambert will talk a little bit about peer-to-peer approaches or peer-to-peer view on the whole concept here, so Before to this Okay, maybe thank you Yeah, thank you so much. I'm super happy to be here and Yeah, I remember very well talking with Sönke maybe three or four years ago I don't know. Do you remember think about how crazy it would be to timestamp? scientific publications or something and and it's amazing to see how far we have come since then so it's really amazing and Sorry, what? Yeah, but really great. Yeah, and yeah, as you maybe know, I Sometimes I prefer to frame it as okay. It's it's an endeavor in Moving Science and research towards peer-to-peer. It's not only about blockchain blockchain is only one particular means in the space But okay, let's let's have a closer look. So first just a very few words about my employer TIB so in fact, maybe surprising I'm a librarian, right? So TIB is the German National Library of Science and Technology So they say so they call it and but at the same time we are also University of Hannover's University Library and Being this special library Means that we have a huge research and development departments We have several professorships within our library and so on you can maybe imagine that and So sorry, I have to tell you a little bit about that just to frame a little bit more So for instance a few years ago TIB came up with the idea of data site Who in this room knows about DOIs and data site? Do you know this so so okay? Not not everybody. So this was hugely important this idea of applying Unique identifier not only to every publication, but to every data set so to make raw data raw research data citable referable to have to have a description about every piece of research data and So we kicked off this worldwide network of research data centers Before it was cool Nowadays everybody is talking about research data and research data management But back then ten years ago this was new and and the spin-off this TIB spin-off data site We still host it and we are proud we take proud in that and and we we continuously do new stuff and try new stuff For instance have a look at Generation R. This is a platform that my team just kicked off a few months ago Jen R. EU and that is a platform where we kind of bundle the discourse on open science in Europe Or we try to do that at least for instance a few weeks ago we ran a theme on decentralized web and We had also contributions from some of the people who are actually sitting here and and we we are leading This discussion on open science decentralized web and and stuff or to name another thing We have the AV portal, which is kind of a YouTube for science, but it does much more than YouTube It does for instance it supports researchers by having a In-speech Recognition of text so we can search in the actual words that are spoken during a presentation that we have as a video there and then this speech is tagged matched with dbpdr terms and so on okay Just have a look for yourself if you like to so now a little bit closer To where I am coming from as I mentioned I have a little bit of a background and social sciences I'm an educated as an academic librarian and work in this field for several years and five years ago I kicked off this team and TIB's research and development department and yeah And what are we actually doing there? So what I'm concerned with is on the one hand just to give you two examples we Made this approach of Did anybody of you hear about current research information systems like pure or something? So yeah, yeah a few people know this so this is a huge development in the recent years So universities now have databases where they try to capture all of the research outcome of their researchers So you have researcher profiles there you can look for how expertise expertise developments and Departments can you can compare by numbers the the outcome and so on and so on and Until recently until five years ago or so Nobody in Germany knew that there's an open source linked open data approach to this vivo And so we committed to that and by now today We have a 15 around 15 research institutions in Germany who use vivo for like monitoring research output in some way this is from my perspective, this is huge and And so if your research institutions is considering to trust Elsevier with their research output and to let them manage this with their offering in this field like With sky well or pure or so think again and consider instead using this approach vivo It's a worldwide alliance taking care of this piece of free and open source software and you can use this instead and To give just another example so so research infrastructure the technical conceptual thing It's only one thing as you all know The the the change towards open science is more like a cultural change. It's a change in attitude It's about knowledge and it's about what what researchers know about this environment And what what is possible and what are the constraints and so we take care for this very much and To give you one example. We had the books brand in February this year where we invited 15 Experts from all over Europe from 10 different countries in fact and within a week We guided them through the process of writing a book So we came up with this foster open science training handbook and that this is written by people who actually do workshops seminars on stuff like open science and data science and and so on and Because yeah, we need to cultivate and grow that knowledge This is a fast-moving target and we you have to take care for that and we actually do that So have a look at this book if you plan your next open science webinar workshop or whatever and Yeah, and of course cause it's a CC zero licensed So it's absolutely open and it's on GitHub and everything what you can imagine So but okay, let's move closer to the actual topic of today. So sorry for the bragging But I need to do that a little bit so a few months ago We STIB acquired together with strong partners from all over Europe our first horizon 2020 Funding in this particular field And this is a project led by the National Technical University of Greece and Athens Which is called quality chain and quality chain is concerned with Blockchain backed educational certificates and higher education So some of you may know that that already since two and a half years ago Or so there are actual institutions who are doing this, right? So they they notarize their like diplomas and so on all kinds of certificates using Blockchains and what is new about this project which which is about to start next year is that we want to create a Fuller to a fuller extend a landscape around this So for instance, we have public employers in mind should be easy for them to receive and and and check those certificates and make a smarter use of them and so on and And please look up for instance what the open University in the UK is doing in this field since more than two years With their open blockchain. It's very well explained on their page I can really recommend that and this is always inspiring because higher education is so close to what we do, right? to research and they are actually Maybe one or two steps ahead So we should learn from them and take take take their building blocks and build upon them I will go into that a little bit more later and Okay, what I think and what maybe many of you in this room is not not particularly new now This idea is this this this kind of approach will set new standards in research as well At least I hope so it has this potential and this means that Researchers will be allowed to directly own their identity. Yes without detours without having necessarily to rely on someone's platform, right and And this is this is at the very core from my perspective at what is what is possible with blockchain and to have like less delegated trust and more permissionless protocols Like we have in other spaces already and you know What kind of innovation the invention of the World Wide Web set off In the beginning of the 1990s and this was due to the fact that this was permissionless protocols And now we have permissionless protocols allowing for permissionless innovations and value transfer as well This is fantastic and it will shift information markets to say the least At least there's a good hope a good perspective for that So yes, but this is not particularly new. So let's have a little bit of a closer look What what does it mean to apply a block this blockchain approach to? Educational certificates and higher education and it's kind of funny because here in the front row We have Osula Georgi professor from from University of applied science and Cologne And we just recently had a bachelor student writing his thesis about Exactly this and this was really fun interesting experience. So this will be a German language But I hope he will publish it. So so he compares different approaches For a digital educational certificates. So what what is the interesting thing now with the with this? Block search approach. So when MIT Media Lab came up with this in 2016 they coined this open standard which they call block search and the idea is here that you set up your note on a peer-to-peer public Blockchain and then you ask somebody who Who gave you the certificate to verify the claim that you got the certificate and of course? this happens on chain and So the interesting thing about this is from the moment on when you receive this verification of your claim So verifiable claim is also a community draft for a w3c standard by now. I will mention this Later again Then You are much more independent with this, right? So if it turns out let's take for example Malta For some reason I never understand this but for some reason I mentioned this. I think yesterday also You have these many language schools in Malta, right? But what happens if one of these schools goes down the drain or what happens in the case of Hungary? This is not made up, but this happened only a few weeks ago. So the government of Hungary Decided that there is some particular University of the open science institutes that they don't like and they force them out of the country So what do you do when you are an alumni of this? Institution and you rely on your future employees that that they believe you that you have your diploma from there But but it's not not there anymore. Yes, they move to another country. So what do you do and? And here Blockchain delivers really an elegant nice solution. Yes, so so you have your wallet app and you own this certification and of your diploma or whatever and You it's up to you to choose in which way and to who you Deliver that proof that you got that certificate. This is what you do for instance using if you want to Zero knowledge proofs so that you know that that only one particular aspect or only one diploma of many diplomas You show if you want to to a particular employee you don't need to show this in public but you have the proof out there and It's impossible to to to remove it or to strip you off of that thing that you achieved So let's move to a slightly different Building block or what I see as a building block. So some of you may know This approach to peer-to-peer To this peer-to-peer approach and science funding, I guess that Ulrich dir nagel in his keynote yesterday mentioned that So what would you guess how often is Johan bollen in this paper? Mentioning crypto economics or blockchain. What what is your guess any number? Zero right, okay, you know that okay, so Okay, yeah zero that's interesting thing So so this is completely not not about crypto economics, but about a good idea and that is to to to to Introduce a new concept and research funding, but actually with crypto economics. We have the means to Realize such an idea to to to to make it a reality In a very efficient and lean way right so the idea is here to to to to have a basic funding for every researcher and to force every researcher to Redistribute a tiny slice of their own funding to other researchers Yes, and and with crypto economics. We can actually do that and I point you to this because I think we don't have to Constantly reinvent the wheel, but instead we should try to connect the dots the buildings blocks that are already out there This is a great idea and actually Johan bollen Ran a simulation on that yes, and and he kind of showed already that this has Certain advantages over the traditional way of research funding so and then we already are in this phase That we do not only have nice ideas and some implementation of ideas, but also more generalized concepts That we have as standards For instance, we have concepts like self-sovereign identity if you are not familiar with the term yet But it was mentioned already yesterday look it up Christopher Allen wrote a fantastic blog posting on this kicked off this development, but also charming fortune gear that now you have this W3C community draft on that and The basic idea again, but more generalized is what I already told you from the At you take educational certificates example so a verifiable claim is when you set up your note on a Blockchain and then you can ask virtually anybody to verify virtually anything about you and you can Think about lots of the transactions that happen in research like peer review for instance Just or any kind of assessment as such a transaction, right? but in this case in this scenario it would be owned by those who own their note on a blockchain and So the idea here is that we have this already in place we have a Standards that make sure that this is not just out there as some Implementation on one particular blockchain, but it's like you have the language That tells you what what happens there independent of the programming language or the framework or the blockchain where you implement this actually and You have working examples for that in the wild So this is virtually everything we need. Yes, and I think again we need to connect the dots for instance We have already great standards describing How we can attribute How somebody contributed to some piece of research we have a Vocabulary in place to describe things like a Peer review or other forms of research assessment. So if we wonder how to Have a machine readable executable plan for blockchain based research funding We already have all the buildings black a building blocks for that there, right? So what we need to do next from my perspective is to Integrate this and connect these thoughts. So for instance, we we would need to have a Certain way to speak about how a certain type of research funder Makes use of a certain attribution to execute their funding on this, right? So that they can just press a button hit the button and and decide, okay Here we go. We we take care that somebody who Yeah, let's take for instance You you are a software developer and you developed you developed a certain Software library that is again and again used in Certain pieces of software you could use this transitive credit approach from Daniel cuts have a look at this it's very interesting and Based on this you could make sure that that a research funder could indirectly Fund this kind of software development, right? So you would have a machine executable research funding plan for this kind of software development And we have we have all of the building blocks there And we should take care that we target this waste of the hourglass, right? So It should be we we should formulate this idea Independent from the blockchain where this is implemented in or some certain programming language and It should also be independent From what research fund funders then would actually make of it. You get my point, right? So this is a waste of the hourglass. We should make Read highly reusable Standards and vocabularies to make sure that we are on the same page here and we have reusable concepts for things like this so Towards the end I Thought I come up with a wish list for the blockchain for open science community and let's discuss this a little bit Maybe if we have time for that so one thing is Okay, we have we have competition in this room and this is not not not bad, right? And we will have certainly some Deplication of efforts due to this as well. So there are a similar project here in this room and you will You will hardly avoid this, right? We will sometimes reinvent the wheel But in order to succeed to make this whole field succeed together I guess it's super important to agree on some standards and this takes time and work We need some at least loose consensus on vocabularies and patterns Again, that's the waste of the hourglass We we need to make sure that we can talk about ways of research funding in consistent ways and to connect it to ways of assessing research where we already have this vocabulary in place and And and this this takes time to develop standards like W3C standards or with other organizations But you should even as a startup even as an ICO you should set aside some time and Some yeah Something of your energy to to take part and those activities yes, we I guess we need this really and Then the other thing this might sound like Okay, not not so surprising but again we should apply Open science standards to what we develop here and by that I mean we should develop open source software We should okay. Sometimes white papers are interesting. They can be the starter of a certain discussion They can be inspiring and so on but more important is to build things in the open be open for contributions and Yeah, try things in public and I guess this is tried and tested this works in open source this works and open science Let's let's apply this as a best practice here in our field as well as often as possible and Then last point and I'm not sure about this. This is just a suggestion or thinking out loud I wonder if there are some things. I mean if we have this common goal to make Blockchains a mean for the advancement of open science and and more agency for researchers and so on maybe We should even have some organization around this yes to make sure that we take care for our advancements and that we Talk with one voice to the public about this maybe because we have good examples how this works Out there from both fields from the open science world and from the blockchain world Thinking about spark and its role and advancing open access in the early days and still or also thinking about the aetherium foundations role now think about what we heard from Defconn for Just a few days ago. So the aetherium foundation turns out to be really helpful for this whole community which was their diverse projects and helping them to to develop new standards and setting the agenda for advancing aetherium and Maybe I don't know maybe we need something like this for blockchain for open science as well and Thanks to Zürnke. We already have an organized organization around this. Maybe this could be a Starting point for that. I don't know let's discuss this. Yeah, so that's all okay Thank you so much Lambert. This was really great and especially the last thoughts. I can just underline We need to do this in the open. We have to do this together and We have to unite to bring this further other questions then Maybe maybe I would like to ask one The the quality chain that you mentioned before what is the the timeline there and is it around so far? Is it is widely used and what are you wishes maybe in that direction? Yeah, very good question. So the open university in UK that I mentioned One of the partners of this project So I guess this is one of our most important building blocks that we already have and what we are missing yet is like an Instrumentation for people who then should make use of these certificates like like for instance public employers Yes, we focus on them in particular in this project and in different countries with different roles and so on And we also make sure that okay so far. This is established somewhat to some extent in higher education But what about professional qualifications that you earn while working in some company? We don't have proper tools for this yet. So this is a kind of Things that we look at and we will certainly have to make sure that we come up with good standards and vocabulary There as well, that's for sure and yeah, join us if you like to Over there's one question wait a second until we have the mic You have already great. Thanks. Thank you very much. That was a really great presentation I wanted to ask you about this Scientific agency that would be funding research has anybody tried to put that in practice What would be your point of view? How far away are we from making it a reality? We have the right resources You are talking about Like more agency for researchers or funding So yeah, that's a very good question So yeah, this is something that concerns me very much in the last few weeks and months and I guess we need to Have this conversation with funding agencies so far I don't know much about this in this area whenever I have the opportunity to speak with people from Progressive funding agencies like welcome trust or stifter for Bund in Germany. They always tell me yes We are absolutely interested, but we need to further this conversation and make sure that we agree on certain standards and so on But this is still to be done. Absolutely important question. Yeah Okay, we're running a little bit out of time But maybe with one final question otherwise we and of course next to research funding agencies There might be other since it's now much easier. Thanks to blockchain to have micro funding things like science What science data is doing? Now without blockchain and so on We will have to look out for other types of funders and funding as well. This is exciting Thank you so much Next speaker we have Alexandra and she will talk about data protection and copyrights and how this can be aligned with the blockchain. Thank you much Hi So I'm Alexander agenda Pulu as I told you yesterday I come from the blockchain and society policy lab from the University of Amsterdam and Today I'm going to talk to you about How are we applying data protection rules on distributed architectures and on the blockchain? So before before I start some preliminary remarks about Well decentralized technologies, so Developing developing decentralized technologies at scale has always been the the holy grail of the ideals of decentralization for organizing social structures and Blockchain technology is the latest example of that of that effort. This has been shown for example late lately at the Decentralizer web summit that happened here a couple of weeks ago So everyone is looking at how blockchain technology will help eliminate unnecessary intermediaries Solve the problem of trust Etc. So The problem that arises with data protection is that by trying to have specific the specific goal of Solving trust and going away with Unnecessary intermediaries and enhancing individual user agency There is there is a conceptual incompatibility with with the GDP with the GDPR in general data protection rules So on the one hand we look to the same goal, which is enhancing control of users user agency and giving them back control over that over their data, but the way that the technology of the law try to approach this problem is Completely different. So on the one hand, we have Decentralization giving more autonomy on the users creating a distributed user base but on the other hand the law what would end it up doing is that it ended up identifying few central actors Who would be liable and about how they process data how they control? Users data and also by giving more power to users through express consent through the power to to withdraw consent and by Reinforcing their agency. So are these two are these two? applications of enhancing individual autonomy of Completely incompatible or is there any way to find a way to make blockchain applications compliant with the GDPR? Another thing that we need to Remember is how we identify different actors in the on the blockchain. So We identify by the way that they control and process Data and that is either by their role in the architecture of the technological infrastructure or They're also their role in the decision-making processes of when and how and if are we going to process this data By combining these two features both technological and governance role, then we can lead read Legal qualification and of course the obligations that come with that legal qualification To start off with examining whether the GDPR is also Is compliant on blockchain technologies? We have to first of all go with definitions. So which data we're talking about? Blockchain technology is technology that It's basically a distributed database that runs worldwide. So necessarily it needs to be compliant to some extent with data protection data protection laws first of all we have Data that are stored on the blockchain Plain takes data, but those are kind of unnecessary and they are not very very often Lee used and Then a data that referred to the transactions. How are the the data? Stored on the blockchain. They're either well the metadata the hashes and Encrypted personal data. So for example public keys So Yeah, what does the law say about this data? The law the GDPR makes a distinction between anonymous data and pseudonymous data. So anonymous data are not Do not fall under the scope of the GDPR But pseudonymous data do What does that mean? How are the definitions? Put in the in the GDPR So anonymous data are only the data that are impossible to identify or to lead to an identifiable Natural person while pseudonymous data are personal data that cannot no longer be directly attributed to a natural person But with Combining different information that can be held by for example third parties They can lead to the identification of Of a natural person of the the subject of the personal data What does that mean for a blockchain data? so The article 29 working party, which is what you would call your right now you would call it European data protection officer Has given opinions about Anonymization, what does that mean? How do we? How can we read reach anonymization? those are They are it's an instrument that helps interpret interpret the law So they're not but per se legally binding but they help guide the decisions of especially European courts So the article 29 working party on an anonymization has said that Processing of personal data should be should irreversibly prevent identification and By that statement that means that hashing and a symmetric cryptography. So public keys cannot fall under that category of Anonymization because for example An analogy would be think about dynamic IPs That the court of the court of justice of European Union has said that even if The the necessary information is held by the internet service provider That is enough to qualify the dynamic IP as a pseudonymous data and not as an anonymous Data so similarly for hashing and a symmetric cryptography They fall under the category of pseudonymous data and then obviously as you can understand poses a very very big problem for all blockchains Why because well There are some data that we simply cannot put off change that we cannot do without it some of the personal data That are on the blockchain are absolutely necessary for the function if of the blockchain data for example, there's there can be no Blockchain if we do not have a hashing of blocks. That's the that's the idea behind the whole the whole technology And also, this is one aspect that is very problematic for the blockchain and the second aspect is the fact that the it's an append only an append only distributed database that Makes it impossible to eliminate eliminate data and so that means that a lot of data that have been Qualified as anonymous now, but they will stay on the blockchain forever Maybe with the advertisements of technology. They will be Well re identified in the future with other technological processes. So that also poses a second problem with The data that will store on the blockchain This is not a new problem this has been discussed for quite a while now there are some technical solutions that have been applied because of the one positive one positive aspect of People that of the technical people that are working on blockchain application is that they are very privacy aware So they are looking to build privacy and hasing technologies in their in their blockchain to begin with so the most simple the most simple solution that that People offer is to store most of the data blockchain but off-chain But as as I've said before this is not possible for a lot of types of personal data So we need to find ways to create privacy enhancing technologies and this also exists in a lot of ways so As your knowledge proof have been mentioned a lot of times or maybe creating a ring signatures or other Technologies that have been proposed especially by some cryptocurrencies However when we talk about Privacy enhancing technologies that could lead to anonymization Is there going to be a standard? Are we going to standardize? Specific technologies that we all agree lead to anonymization or are we just keep? Are we just going to keep a list that needs to be continuously updated as a suggestion because even if it's simply a list That means that it would not be it would not be legally binding in any way and Secondly when we're going to standardize technologies Who is going to standardize them that poses problems on the governance side of? of blockchain technologies and communities so Do you have any legal solutions for that? Officially no officially there is no There's no legal solution to to adopt this this problem But what has been what has been proposed is the fact that we need to accept that some of the data that are circulating on the blockchain are essential on the functioning to the blockchain and What we need to remember is they are the application of a lot of rights that are given to data subjects are relatively Are relative to the the the applicable technology so depending on the limits of the technology that We where the the data subject Goes to claim the the application of the rights This these rights are going to be enforced according to the limits of the of the of the technology So taking taking in consideration the fact that this specific data is essential to the functioning of the blockchain could lead to a possible solution Adopt a lot of the two blockchain standards is something that has also been Proposed but this is highly unlikely specifically because it took us a lot of years and a lot of negotiations to reach to the the enforcement of European Regulation so this is something that I don't think is going to happen So some of the consequences With this with this proposed solutions is first of all the data minimization that I mentioned here is the obligation to take a technical technical the necessary technical measures to control and process as as little personal data as possible and But that could mean that if we accept that there are some privacy enhancing technologies that could be applied And if we standardize those technologies does that mean that users who would have the right to turn to the blockchain technology? developers and because they didn't use a more or less or the specific new technology that creates a more a better application of data minimization obligations and Also, that would mean when data we're not anonymous data that are stored forever on the blockchain If they become pseudonymous because of because of the advanced advancement of technology What does that mean for user rights? Do the do the do the users need to consent about the data that would That would Processed a while ago and how do what are what are the obligations of the actors that are? Related to to that specific blockchain and that leads us to the second part of this presentation Which is? Yeah, blockchain actors and GDPR compliance You've probably heard again of those terms so what are the the two main actors that the GDPR creates for data processing is We have article 4 of the blog of the GDPR data controllers are the people the institutions the actors that determine the purposes and the means of the processing of personal data, so there are the the people that are in charge of the decision-making processes and About processing and collecting personal data and the data processors that are simply processing the personal data on behalf of the controller so here I'm going to take a very a very very simple Example of a blockchain technology is not at all representative of what actually happens But this is just for the sake of the of the discussion to give you some of the examples of the of the problems that would arise so we're going to examine those those actors that More or less exist on on blockchains. We have nodes full nodes Simple nodes. We have the miners. We have the developers that creates the the blockchain and of course different third parties. We have Exchanges we have wallets. We have decentralized applications, etc so Can we find any liability? To any of those actors Let's start with the miners What do the miners do so the miners are going to verify transactions are going to add blocks on the blockchain Are they controllers Well, they they do validate Submitted data, so they do participate in the in the processing of the personal data But however, they do not determine the mince and purposes of the block of the of the processing of the personal data So they are not alone. They do not take autonomous decisions about How the blocks are validated and how the processing is being done, but are they processors so? so The the French data protection authority the Kneel recently gave a public report about GDPR compliance and the in the blockchain and said that the miners could be data processors Processing personal data, but that poses a problem of who is the controller for whom are they? are they Processing those personal data and what is the relationship between those two actors? Developers so the developers let's say I've always taken the example of the of the Bitcoin Blockchain so they define how the data is processed through by by maintaining the protocol are they controllers Yeah, so They could be considered to determine The means and purposes of the product of the processing, but they are not alone in that process they are always bound by the consensus and that and the by technological requirements and So they do not remain autonomous in how they they they determine the means and the processes of Of the processing of the personal data and also that could mean that if we actually believe that the developers are data controllers that Bleak to Applications about all open source developers. Are they all data controllers? Can they all be liable under the GDPR? Next we have the third party. So we have as I told you exchanges wallets digitalized applications, etc So they analyze blockchain data for commercial purposes Let's say an ICO for example They could qualify as data controllers for the data that they request for the users again Think of the ICO example all the public keys that they that they are going to to publish the transactions They're going to publish once they collect the funds They are going to be responsible for all the data that they store off-chain However Regarding the on-chain data still we need to find if they could also be the processors But they do not they do not that does not appear to be the case think for example A decentralized application that runs on the on the theorem blockchain Does that mean that we will qualify the third party as a data controller and then the if you The theorem foundation the theorem blockchain Foundation as the data processor, but there is no contract contractual relationship between the two So that also seems quite problematic very unlikely to happen Finally we have well almost finally we have the full nodes So we we take the example of the full nodes because they are there was a download the whole blockchain the download the blocks and the Transactions the very and to verify them against consensus rules again Similarly, there has been a there has been a proposal that they could be Contrary that they could be considered as joint controllers So all the nodes all the full nodes could be considered as the people that take the decisions About how the the process the processing of the personal data is going to happen However, there is no contractual relationship between the nodes and they all act individually but and also We cannot be considered as individual controllers because they are Similarly as the developers they are subject to the rules that are the design rules that are created by the developers So this is like a reciprocal relationship Finally We have the users so a user that just simply goes to To make a transaction on the blockchain They could be this they could be data controllers and data subjects at the same time So data subjects that have control of their data because they can use their private key they are bound by the consensus of the blockchain and so They cannot be they cannot be even though they are they could they can be subject To be considered as data controllers for their own data. They cannot be considered data controllers for the data When they participate on the full network. So that again means that they do not they cannot be qualified as data controllers in general for all blockchain data so Conclusions first of all the as all lawyers are going to say in this in this case is that it depends everything depends on the blockchain Everything depends on the governance of the blockchain. Are we examining? On the on the third-party's perspective. Are we examining whose personal data are we examining? So we need to look at the specific governance structure of a given blockchain onto the specific use case and also the specific data personal data that are at stake And finally the GDPR principle of controllership So how we identify those actors could be rethought again given the fact that one a lot of personal data are Essential for the functioning of the blockchain and two that we're talking about an architecture That was not thought of when the GDPR was was being discussed and was being Enforced at the end of May. So yes, that's all. Thank you Thank you very much that are really important kind of essential questions that were addressed here I Still have the feeling it is not clear, right? I mean this is as often unfortunately It is not clear so far other other questions Over there And maybe you can wait until the microphone Thank you for your talk One of the aspects of the GDPR that I think you didn't cover in your presentation is the article on chapter 5 about transfer of personal data To third countries, which is something that for example in a public blockchain If you are you know processing something data might be processed by someone that it's outside the EU I do you have any comment on that? Well the so the specific problem about enforcing the GDPR is specifically exactly what you said is that once you have either a node a user a minor a company that Processes data that refer to a European citizen Then the GDPR applies to the whole blockchain. So this goes both ways goes to either taking taking the data outside of two to third countries or also Even when one individual from the blockchain Is part of the of an EU country or processing data that refer to to to to any you citizens so that's that's Yeah, that's the big problem actually This means that if I'm a company that is going to process This data for European citizens I am automatically obliged to use a private blockchain Well, I know all my miners are inside the EU So, yeah, the different the difference between permission and permission less Blockchain is that in a permission blockchain you can actually control that so that means that you it's much more easier to identify the actors in You have specific miners. You have specific parties identified people that That take part in the decision-making processes. So in that case Applying being compliant to the GDPR is easier But in the public blockchain as you would say the permission in the permission less one. This is where a lot of problems Occur because there is no way to of knowing how to enforce Hi, you started off by a definition and that definition contained two words natural person I was wondering if you've done any thinking on unnatural persons thinking of AI agents literature Like deep mind recites itself. I think so just wondering if the law had thought of unnatural persons and consequences of well Yeah, we're talking about natural persons because personal data referred to the data subjects and that means individual people So though those are the data that we protect and we do not protect data that refer to an AI So that was that that's the that's the yeah, that's a meaning behind natural persons Can wait for the mic, please. Thank you. I have a rather uncomfortable comment to make and that is That such a thing as a permission to blockchain does not exist because a block blockchain is by definition decentralized and Immutable, which means a permission blockchain is not a blockchain, but an encrypted ledger It's just a comment to my knowledge, there is no official definition of the blockchain So that is to be determined. Yes There are some definitions about the blockchain. There's a lot and that is it has no single one though so I mean we'll say properties and Being decentralized and permission Decentralized and immutable are five of the central definition points of a blockchain. I mean, yeah We could say permission distributed ledger. Yes, if that makes you more comfortable. Yes All right further questions Otherwise, I think we have deserved at first you have deserved a big applause and Then we have deserved a break and Zunke clearly said half an hour because this is for networking So we will we reconvene at 1205 Here again with the next session, right? there Exactly so content is clean so 12 or five back here again. Thank you very much 130 at lunch Otherwise, we won't get any food. I checked with the hotel and I'm sorry for that. It's my fault. Please blame me We'll do it better next time and the crypto economy is actually very exciting for science Okay, so Mahoney will guide us through the session and All right Okay, everyone we're gonna start a really cool session now involving more focused on crypto economics First up we've got you've Jenny a now you've Jenny has come in from Vienna where she is based at the Research Institute for Crypto economics first University in Austria to actually create a Institute especially for crypto economics. So that's really exciting and Her background as she can explain a bit more she was previously at stone and then Was teaching more in the entrepreneurship field and now is teaching students from undergrads to post-grad all about crypto economics apparently the courses there are Really really popular and they're getting loads of students wanting to Explore this field. So she's gonna give a quick overview She's not feeling overly. Well, I'm sorry about this So we're gonna keep it brief and then we'll open up for some Q&A. So Yeah, welcome Thank you Sorry, I'm very ill today. So I'm Struggling a little bit with my voice Yes, I'm coming from the Research Institute for Crypto economics that is based at the Vienna University of Economics and Business and I'm very grateful for the opportunity actually to be here and to present briefly what we are doing because the last meeting of the Of this community took place exactly in Vienna in spring 2018 and we were sitting in a small room with around 25 or 30 people. So it's growing and growing and I'm very happy about that and so We as a research Institute were founded around one year ago With a mission to contact interdisciplinary research around the blockchain paradigm in Technology economics business and law We are not only the classical research Institute in a sense that we do not only publish the scientific papers Which we of course also have to do But we also cooperate with the different startups and with the industrial partners and of course with the universities in Austria and abroad So this is our research agenda, which is Divided into four parts The first one, which is now central and the most important for us are the micro economic foundations of the token economy And here we have the researchers that are doing the game theory the incentive design Monetary theory and agent based modeling. So all the things that are actually at the core of the token economy Then we also cover the technical aspects such as scalability and security issues of the networks We are the University of business and and economics That's why we are very active in the research regarding the blockchain applications together with our industrial partners For example, we have now an exciting project about blockchain and sustainability So how can you program the tokens in order to incentivize the sustainable behavior? We're also active in supply chain and trade finance field and identity in the business process research And Legal aspects are also very important. That's why around fourth of our researchers coming from the Legal perspective and they also cooperate with the policy makers to understand how to regulate the whole thing so Talking a little bit about the token economy and the token engineering. This is a very new direction for our research Institute that we started a couple of months ago and what we started from we started to look what is actually over there and How can we structure and do a kind of the taxonomy of the tokens? so Tokens is not a new thing because the term was used also before the blockchain arrived It was used in economics as just a small and flat, you know around piece of plastic or metal that Can sometimes be used instead of money for example in casino or with the in the middle ages with the nice and nights tokens that the nights were carrying these pieces of Metal and use them within the specific ceremonies In the economic sense token is a limited legal tender So a promise to be exchanged for something of the value in the future Token is also used as the part of the loyalty program as the voucher gift card in Computing token means something different is just an object in software and hardware that represents the right to perform some operation Now talking about the blockchain token. There is no unified definition of actually. What is it? You're just a couple of them that we find useful. So from a technical perspective Token is implemented as a list of blockchain addresses or user accounts That have a number associated with them together with first of all a set of methods used to manipulate that list transfer and tokens from a to b and Rules to determine who can manipulate the list and in which way Another simplified definition is token as a digital asset that can be transferred between two parties Without requiring the concert of any other Third party the most important point here is that token has definitely a technological perspective without technological perspective It doesn't go to program it but it's not only a technological term. It's not only technological construct It's a social technological construct. So from the technological components it's an entry in a blockchain database and from the social thought perspective or socio-economic perspective its Reason why it exists its reason to be and it is defined by an agreement between a group of people and in this sense Token represents some aspect of the relationships between individual members of the group and here as a lot of previous speakers already have mentioned the central thing and The reason why the tokens are becoming the kill application of the blockchain are the power of incentives because you can program them in a Certain ways and you can make with them people to do some stuff But how to do that? It's not only technological question. That's a question where you need the researchers That's why we have also 30 associated researchers from different perspective that are going to work on that Right now from the scientific point of view There is no clear taxonomy of the tokens and we decided that we could look at them From four different perspective the technical perspective the rights perspective So which types of rights are added to the token from the legal perspective? How is it regulated and from the fungibility perspective fungible and not fungible? So from the technical perspective, maybe it's not in you for for lots of you. So I'm just Going quickly There are protocol tokens and these are the tokens that incentivize the users to behave In a sense of the protocol it can be block validation incentives as a minor reward Can be a transaction spam prevention as a ripple for example? the app Tokens they are issued on the application layers they are standardized with the different standards the famous ERC 20 and They can represent few lines of codes many lines of codes and so on This app tokens can represent the physical good the digital good or some right to perform an action in a network Or in the real world The rights perspective is about what types of rights are actually Attacked to the token and in this sense we can We can say that there are passive tokens and active tokens. So passive tokens They have just the right to they transmit the right to an underlying economic value Security token is the most famous example of that but also asset-backed tokens and currency tokens There are also active tokens or access or activity rights So this is when token is required to participate in a network that no third-party controls Here we have usage tokens so tokens that's required to use as a service the most Famous examples are Bitcoin or ether. So they don't give you any Right, but they give you just a right to use the network the work tokens Give uses the right to contribute work and earn in exchange for their work And again, this is not as we can say okay one token is usage token and the other one is a work token There is no clear border between these types because even if we think about the ether Tackling the example before it is a usage token But in the moment when the Ethereum comes from proof of work to proof of stake it becomes also the work token There are also reputation reward tokens So they give their users their owners the privilege right to do something within the network the interesting part is The fungibility perspective because exactly non fungible tokens are seen as the killer application of the Blockchain and they open doors to numerous digitized assets So what is fungibility fungibility is ability of a currency to maintain a standard value and Uniform acceptance so meaning that a history of a currency does not affect its value And each piece of that currency is equal and value to every other piece So 10 euros in my pockets are have exactly the same value as 10 euros in your pocket So fungible tokens. They are just cash alike basically they are indistinguishable and They can be merged or divided into larger or smaller amounts making them indistinguishable The non fungible tokens That's an interesting part because these are the blockchain assets that are designed to not be equal and basically they represent the standardized ownership of a certain category of asset but the assets within that category can have very different market value For example, the ownership over a house. We both a and b owner the house so the same ownership but the value of the house is a very different and We have a lot of assets. That's actually very different. That's why there are numerous use cases for this non fungible tokens Some of the examples are collectibles or piece of arts. I don't know crypto kiddies is the early example of that online gaming because games very often include Selling and buying assets that have different value attack to them the tickets real estate's identity and so on and so forth So from the legal perspective, that's absolutely not my field but international regulators are still trying to understand and Classify different token types and to treat them accordingly There are tokens that are seen as occurrences and they are accordingly regulated by the financial market authorities and There are also securities that are not physical assets and they fall under the security law Now what we are doing with the token engineering topic at our institute as I said Very very new topic. So we decided first of all to make some working packages out of it and we First try to identify similarities between the models that we already have in macro and micro economics Within the existing systems and try to think if these models can be applied to model Also crypto economic systems or we need something new and Where can we learn from the existing models? We also aim to formalize the network design and the network evaluation models based on existing economic and mathematical models, we Right now developing a taxonomy for this new emerging scientific field We are going to design a bottom-up token engineering framework And of course summarize all that in the scientific papers that we are going to publish So these are kind of the first atoms to map the research questions and here I'm Not as a very classical research institutes. We created the Google doc with them This is a living document and we are very very interested in exchanging with the community with the people that are actually designing that and not only with the researchers so I will share the presentation and And if you are interested just look at it This is just now for now this are the list of 40 research questions And if you would like to comment to contribute or to give some examples for them, please feel free to do that So that's a kind of the call for action So thank you for listening and yes We have a lot of social media and you can track all our activities there. Thank you Thank you. You've Jenny especially considering your condition. Thank you so much. Awesome. Um, all right, so now we've got Dr. Philip from the Frankfurt School of Finance Is he in the room? There you are awesome Thanks We're just going to actually save Q&A for When we have a collaborative setting of a lunch so just so we can push through these now Dr. Philip is going to talk about about crypto economics in the context of funding research So thank you and Yeah, thank you very much. Yeah, my name is Philip Sander. It's very nice the organization. I uploaded this file. I don't know five minutes ago, and it's already there So this is really Nice and nobody noticed it. It looks like it has been prepared weeks ago, right? It just was finished five minutes ago So therefore it's really nice to have this Conference organized so so well actually I'm not talking about Crypto economics because at this point of time I think it's too it's okay to discuss all these topics, but it's also foundational research in Germany I would call it Grundlagenforschung and therefore we also need to think about what we can implement now Research in blockchain is in a in my mind in a very very early stage and the reason for this is also because Yeah, the topic is In all is very new. I think everybody knows this but also you have state-funded Institutions such as Fraunhofer Max Planck and others and these are because they are state-funded They will not change on the short term So you can we can do all kinds of research and discuss things But you cannot change these structures, which are probably even even more slowly changing than financial organizations in like the larger banks and therefore I think It's very important to discuss these topics, but we should have in mind that these incumbents if we call it that way Are state-funded and with this they cannot change. I would say not in the next five to ten years Yeah, I'm from the Frankfurt School of Finance and Management from the business faculties in Germany So from the business schools in Germany there are 400 we are among the top five now So it's a quite good university, but I always have to mention this because people don't know it We founded the blockchain Center approximately two years ago over Christmas two years ago and Since that I think we work quite nicely. We have been the first University in Germany doing this with with quite some breath and now also others for example the midwider people are doing a Brilliant job They are also joining this game. So you see here also that that research and also universities are joining this field You see quite much happening in all kinds of disciplines law business computer science And so on you see also here on the right-hand side that what we are doing is not just Banking and finance. We are also working on topics such as industry 4.0 And the Internet IoT Internet of Things topic So it's quite broad and actually when I have to present ourselves very very quickly. I always say that we are like Fraunhofer Maybe you know, you know Fraunhofer Fraunhofer is an institute which provides consulting services Which provides a platform which also provides seminars workshops and conferences and we are actually exactly like them But of course much much much much smaller, but also much more focused. Yeah, but it's from an image We are not just doing research. We are not just doing lecturing We are more applied research similar really like Fraunhofer. Yeah So how how will blockchain change the way research will be done in the future and what is future? I would say it's at least plus five years from now, maybe plus 10 years. We always have to this define it because I like all the stuff and the crypto economics, but it's we need Quite some years until we get there and until these things will actually be adopted So if you have a look at how research is being done now I think nearly everybody in the room knows this you have the government who is paying money you have researchers such as PhD students, professors, research groups and so on they are getting money and in between you have a research associations or research organizations such as for example universities German research Society DFG, Max Planck and all these huge organizations and typically They cost 30 to 45 percent of the money So the state spends spends a 50 million and the researchers in total gets a 30 million because the structure costs money And with this you could now say that these organizations in between they are factually Intermediaries similarly like banks stock exchanges Similarly like platforms such as uber, you know all these stories, but actually research Organizations like them are nothing else than intermediaries. They take money. They are rooting it to the to the researchers and of course they need a share to live and they Like it. Yeah, they justify the money which they need for operations, which is absolutely fine Because they are selecting a research. They need to filter many proposals. So they are doing a good work You know, that's I have to say this definitely But at the same time the structure of course costs really a lot of money and in percentage point I would estimate it to be 30 percent or 45 percent. Yeah, there are studies out there, but it's the same with charity found Institutions you have now Christmas coming you have charity Organizations you send 100 euro. They should come to Africa and the structure costs say 20 percent or 30 or 45 percent Because the structure needs to be operated and I think blockchain will take some years, but it will change this Definitely, so how would it work or you all know this you have a blockchain structure in the middle It's the key here is the register function the register function provides the possibility to store assets This can be of course Bitcoin, but it can also be the euro. It can be tokens. It can be ICOs whatever and This structure is nothing else than the new intermediary and if you now apply the logic from banks and financial organizations to research organizations, then you would now see these Research organizations very importantly not being replaced, but they have to change their business model similarly to banks We will also have banks in the future, but they are not doing the transactions This will be done by blockchain technologies, but they will provide a gateway into the blockchain and I would assume now that organizations like Fraunhofer, Max Blank and all these large research organizations They should provide some kind of gateway into blockchain infrastructure for example for doing Filtering screening of research proposals and so on as they are doing it now But the administration part you know like taking money rooting it to the researchers are then being Yeah, should be done from an operations perspective by blockchain technology I learned about this project yesterday. It's called blockchain technology research institute You don't need to note it down at this point of time because it's very very very small It's created by two three researchers in Frankfurt and they they would like to do independent research But they don't have money and therefore they have created their website and here you see how you can participate You can for example here send money to them and this is what you get you get tokens I would assume Nina. Maybe you can clarify this later on that these are donation tokens And and then there is some quite interesting law applying because you don't have these classical rules applying I'm not a lawyer but according to to People in in law the donation tokens are very fascinating So this could be a donation token and you see here what that what you get for your money. You get independent research So you get also some basic results and you of course you get access to the research Results and you get good karma and the question is now is this enough? Is this enough? Actually no because there are no transactions coming in so the point is here That you see that is an early experiment which could work in the future But probably what these guys are offering you can see it here It might not be enough yet because maybe you need to sell it more clear for example with access to data or access to other things To make it more Plastic such that you can grasp it in a more in a better way and then maybe it would work in a better way But fair enough these guys are doing this now since One or two months so time is very very early But I like the idea of just saying so hey we are doing research if you wish please send us your money But apparently so far it's not working yet. So in the future I Could imagine that it works like as follows. So you have researchers on the right-hand side you have Those companies or organizations providing money on the left-hand side. They provide money and they get Results and data For it. Yeah, so this way we are like in the best of all blockchain worlds Which are which is about monetization of data. So you have data out there This can be monetized typically we talk about IoT sensors But you could also monetize the data coming from a PhD student who is writing his Research about a specific topic and then he is providing Exclusivity for money for example and the money is higher when the exclusivity is more strong for example And there is a company here in in Berlin called we've I think it's opposite of The river not far from here and they are doing exactly the same architecture in the IOT space They are providing a blockchain layer for data tokenization and data monetization Then they provide an IOT layer for connecting the physical world and the blockchain world and above all they have the Data marketplace where you can sell and buy your data and I would think so But nobody has done it in detail that research in the future could work in a similar way So you would have something like an ethereum backbone for financial Transactions then you have an weave network protocol in a similar way, which is organizing the way research is being done you know milestones a Funding Mechanisms and so on and above this in yellow. Similarly, you would have specific technical devices providing data But you could also have PhD students professors or research organizations, which are then Working on specific tasks according to the protocol, which is organizing research I'm not sure if if there's so much work in this area probably some early startups But organizing research through protocols would be very very very fascinating, but it's I think quite quite strong in the future And therefore the question would then be will Yeah intermediary such as Max Planck and so on will they become Obsolete I would say no because you still need experts for filtering and screening start Research proposals. I think this is very important. I'm not sure if this can be really outsourced to the crowd And therefore I think it's it's going a similar way like the banking industry where for example the banks also need to change But they but they will survive more or less Yeah, so what do we need to achieve this? I Think at the end of the day, of course, you need as I said a specific protocols for research But underlying this you need to have money on blockchain systems And at the end of the day trip to currencies are not enough You also need to have the euro on a blockchain system and the reason for this is very simple because if the government Government spends money. This money is being spent in euro and not in Bitcoin. So you still you definitely need the Euro there is no way to simply operate this with ICOs Crazy trip to currencies and Bitcoin. So what I present to you now is coming Like actually from the financial world, but it's perfectly applicable also to the research area. So what you see here is Ethereum I have to clearly mentioned that Ethereum is just one word here. It could also be EOS It could be an banking consortium or whatever But Ethereum is well known and therefore I have put Ethereum here So why do you need either because you need to pay for asset transfer? I think everybody knows this so once you want like to Transfer a specific amount of money. You need to pay Approximately one US dollars and to get these transactions being done Alternatively you can pay for business processes. These are Called smart contracts. I think most of the people in the room are knowing this and smart contracts are looking like follows so this is a very very basic smart contract for doing an Money transfer and I think research and the way research is being Put in a protocol in the future perhaps would also be organized in such smart contracts But I think this is a very very strong effort, which is very difficult a project because you have to Yeah reconciled many many many standards in the world to To arrive at one joint software code Which is then able to be a protocol for research But if this works, you can then have ESC 20 tokens and with ESC 20 tokens You can create second order crypto currencies on top of ethereum Everybody knows this it's called ICO and if this works then people are now starting and I think this is getting really exciting They are starting to put traditional currencies on top of ethereum. So you have the the project stars is which is now We are three four months old and they are putting the euro in an ESC 20 format and With this they have tokenized the euro, which means they are taking at this point of time 12 million Traditional euro put it on an escrow account It's basically safeguarded by auditors and and a bank and in the volume of 12 million They are creating 12 million tokens of crypto euro and with this you now have the euro on ethereum You stabilize the prices at exchanges at exactly 1.00 and then you have one crypto euro being equal to one Traditional euro and I think this is exactly what you need because this is the payment infrastructure You will also have to have in the research world. I don't believe in Coins and tokens for research funding, but you need to have the euro and therefore I think This goes into exactly the rate the same direction People are also working on putting stocks and all kinds of financial Instruments on top of ethereum and most interesting in the future. This has not been done yet But people are trying it you could also put research projects on top of ethereum You put the milestones in a smart contract and you not just put one Research project on top of ethereum, but you put say 50 or 500 Research projects on ethereum and then you could ask people to invest or fund these research project Using the crypto euro on top of ethereum. So this is the underlying Euro layer or Transactional layer you need to have otherwise blockchain based on or research based on blockchain will not work And the fascinating thing then is that you can exchange everything with everything a US person could invest US dollar into a German research project a South Korean state funding Organization could co-invest in the German University. So you have all kinds of people providing money and all kinds of research Projects consuming money and they would then all operate on the ethereum platform So this would then allow some kind of seamless funding same with financial markets of all kinds of their projects on one platform On a worldwide level. I think this is very important. There are no intermediaries. So no Fraunhofer and Max Planck institutes as we know them, but they would change their role being gateways and of course you would also have more easier reporting and so on and Similarly to the financial sector you would then have funds which are collecting stocks and providing for example a fund Which can be investing in say the all German companies and similarly you could now and that's getting really exciting You could now create funds for research and these funds are Sending money to all research projects in the area of say climate change And then all projects classified that way on a worldwide level would receive a specific amount of money by this kind of Fund fund which is sitting on top of the single research projects But this is probably even 15 years from now on. Yeah, and to close this short speech I would quickly highlight this initiative which we have started We we see that many many many tokens are being created. That's basically the vision behind this You it's not just ICOs. You also have the crypto euro. You have US dollars with Frank and everything being sitting on the blockchain in the future And as I said, it does not need to be Ethereum could also be EOS and Or in banking consortium You have thousands of stocks in the future on blockchain basis and also probably hundreds of thousands of research projects So there will be millions of coins as the CEO of Binance has said it there will be millions of coins And at the same time these token markets are lacking market standards And for this reason we are currently creating an association and I'm saying I'm I'm presenting this example because I think After some first weeks we have gained some positive feedback because we are setting it up like by definition as a non-profit Association and this makes it very easy for people to contribute Yeah, so it's it's not an issue that people would like to contribute and pay say an annual fee of 50 euro or 100 Euro but by really focusing on a non-profit character of an association People also feel that this is similarly to the open source approach making it broad very quickly And because with all what you see here on the slide you could have also formed a company But we decided to make a non-profit association out of it Yeah, and because there will be millions of tokens you need to have a unique identifier already now you have Bitcoin with multiple Deviations some call it BTC others call it XTC and so you already already have confusion there on coin market cap The symbol is not unique. So you have a couple of coins which are using the same symbol. Yeah, this should not happen So we are providing or the association will provide an an it in number Which is providing a unique token identification number and it will also provide a classification framework There are many classification frameworks out there But so far there are not many people out there who have already classified 800 assets as we have done with the association. So we went through coin market crap kept from time Position one to position 800 and classified these 800 assets according to the classification and all this data will then be provided more or less for free in a database such that people can use it as soon as possible Why am I showing you this because it it seems to work and a structure like this could also work For pushing the topic of research in blockchain. I'm now jumping over this. I'm also jumping over this So what did we do here in in detail? We are saying that like others the Classification scheme for tokens has four dimensions. One is the economic purpose. So is it What is the reason of the token? Why does it exist? Then the second one is the technological setup. What's behind from a technological perspective? Then the third one is the legal claim. So in case you would have a research project focusing on simple donations Then you would not have a legal claim here and the fourth point is an industry classifications as we know it from existing stock markets So the economic purpose is split it as usual in three domains You have payment tokens, which can be the Bitcoin which is an unpacked payment token or the crypto euro Which would be a packed payment token, then you have all the utility tokens That's basically the ICOs of the past 18 months And you also have an investment token. We did not call it security token because security token implies a local route in a specific legislation and Therefore because so far we are focusing on the economic purpose. We stayed away from the word security token and therefore called it Investment token. There are not many out there, but you see already now that the number of tokens in this class category The category is called EP03 Is rising the technical setup? at this point of time differentiates between native Infrastructures, this would be Ethereum and Bitcoin and second order infrastructures, which would would be ICO smart contracts placed on top of first order structures Legal claim is fascinating because of course you have many projects out there where there is no claim This could be donation tokens, but also pure protocol tokens Then you also have some relative rights out there This would be the crypto euro where you have a right for the collateral Which is stored on the escrow account and in the future there might also be absolute rights tokens Yeah, this would be one Analyzes how Bitcoin is now classified including the the TCF classes as we called them And it shows now according to first statistics that the economic purpose is mostly utility tokens That's basically 18 months of ICOs being now through the system And now you already see that 5% are investment tokens even though they are not classified as security tokens mostly Yeah, so you see that some tokens are clearly investment tokens, but they worked Legally around the requirements such that they are utility tokens from a legal perspective You always need to differentiate the economic purpose and the legal situation And from a technological setup perspective you see here that like one third It's yellow one third of all tokens are first-order crypto currencies That's Bitcoin, Ethereum and other networks and 57% are ESC 20 tokens. So you see also here that Yeah Ethereum is the platform for ICOs. There is no other significant platform out there. Yeah with this I would like to close I hope I didn't extend the time too much And we do the questions later on, right? Okay, so note them down, please and Yeah, thanks very much. Thank you, Dr. Phillip. Awesome. A lot of insights there that I'm sure people Enjoy following up with you later on so Great points around research projects and how to incentivize better ones to surface and on that note We've now got Alex who's the founder of DEIP, right? Right, right. Cool Which I'm sure you've already heard a lot about over the past two days so I'll let him Share about how you're building a new home for science, right? Right. Cool. Okay. Okay, so Hello everyone Seems I know most of people already here, but always happy to meet new one and Today, I'm gonna be talking mostly about automation in grants distribution and how we implemented this model within our platform and And because it's tightly aligned with evaluation of scientific research and as Philip by the way already mentioned that founders need to screen projects and Screening is mostly about evaluation And if we want to automate this process if we want to get a read of All these like huge operational cost During this process. We need also to get somehow evaluation more decentralized more trustworthy Okay, let me check. Yeah, is it the right presentation? Okay so It seems it's not possible to distribute grants without involvement from scientists side because Scientific projects are really complex if in if it's Domain specific complex project only scientists who has this expertise within this discipline can and able to Overlay this and receive And provide for funders for decision-makers information about is it viable? Is it feasible? Is it good project design? Is it? Worst to fund so and Actually, it's kind of a review and this review All this review is put inside into funders into their process and we put trust on them that they do this Appropriately they do it. They do this efficiently that they spent all this operational cost They consuming efficiently To determine quality determine scientific contribution of each research But really it's It's kind kind of a process Which can be? In improved it obviously every every everything can be improved and but if it could be decentralized and And and put into open access and results of this evaluation put into open access Then everyone can use it everyone can use it to make a decision on Is that to fund the research is that to publish this research is it to join to this research group as a junior PhD student so Let me start a bit from from describing a bit our platform and here are our Main tokens within our system. There are six type of tokens within our system and first one is a deep token. It's internal currency It's the most simple one because it's like store and of value and just money just currency within the system and Another token is the expertise tokens, which represents scientific contribution Expertise contribution of each individual within a system and this is actually the core of the system These tokens are used also for a violation of scientific projects and for governments of wall system Research tokens, I'm not going to talk a lot of that about them Today, but it's also another opportunity to fund a research project because Research tokens represents ownership of research and can be used also for investment for investment into scientific research to receive As investor I buy investing into research project I will be able to receive corresponding part of all future income from IP from products pinned off from this research project Research group token is a government's for research group and most of like voting token voting shares of research group Common token is a technical token which allocates throughput within a network and Journal token is also very interesting Model for journals Which will avoid conflict of interest with research projects because currently journals Obviously have this conflict of interest Is journals were designed to promote good research and disseminate scientific knowledge, but because of conflict of interest in commercial model now they like more Chasing a hype we chasing like profit and And this is not definitely not like a good way to promote science promote quality and journal token is a Is kind of a Fund a venture fund which invest into research token and they're there for incentivized to invest into best projects within a system and portfolio of venture fund is a like a journal which Which shows What these journals have invested in and they will receive also revenue from what they invested in so that's why Now they their interest is aligned with the research and then what want to invest into best Research most promising research, which will generate most impact in future Okay, so now let's get back to funding because it's First of all, it's main topic of my today talk Within our system we have two major classes two major categories of funding within a system and First one is external which requires some external funding From government from private fund foundations to come to the system and then be distributed within a system and these external funding involves both investment and grants and And another funding is internal it's it's it's coming from a mission of internal currency and represents kind of basic research for and for basic income for researchers so Every block every three seconds with our blockchain there is a mission of internal currency Which is distributed across research projects across researchers as a reward for their scientific contribution it's And you don't need to trust anyone. So if you've done Scientific contribution you will be awarded by protocol and it's all in the algorithm. So you don't need any intermediary for this And Grants also can be automated with this system because the same way we distribute a reward from internal currency Grants can be allocated for specific discipline and distributed to research projects within this discipline And to distribute this grants we actually need a quantified Index of scientific contribution of each research and this is what we This is what we have done for a violation of scientific research within our system We designed mathematical model which produces quantified index of scientific contribution of each research within each discipline and using these quantified index smart contract can Distribute funds both from internal currency and both from external grants between these research projects and this also Works for basic research. So you can be rewarded even by doing basic research because in our system a part of reward also distributed to references and If your basic research is references a lot From other research projects which earns some revenues in the system or some incomes in the system your basic research will be rewarded from all Research projects which are based on knowledge you created. So and this is kind of Returning back a value for basic research which is a bit lost during past 100 years and By doing basic research you still will be rewarded from everything every knowledge produced from this basic research Yeah, so Grants distribution as I said can be automated Within a system So Let me tell a bit more how it works Let me imagine you have ten million dollars Wish you want to distribute across research projects during one year in quantum optics discipline and you want this money to be distributed to most Dessort Dessort project so within a system there is There is a smart contract where you can locate this money and it will be Distributing during gradually one during one year this money across research projects in this specific discipline accordingly to their index of scientific contribution and All results of what it was distributed When to what research projects can be audited because it in public blockchain and you can track Why it was distributed to this research what was? Proportion what was the ratio of index scientific contribution index during that period of time and you can like analyze wall history any time and Actually, it also can you can help us and scientific community enhance the system because after After all this happens all this data can be used for to enhance the model of this distribution Yes, and because all these really rely on Results of decentralized assessment. It should be in and this scientific contribution index produced by the system It should be really trustworthy and Efficient in terms of how it produces so it should really reflect Real scientific contribution of this research So that's why I also Decided to tell you a bit more about how it's done So main idea is that We can have we can we already have we in in scientific Community there's all already Review peer review and this review happens both when you publish in when you're applying for a grant when you Well, when you just receive in a feedback from scientists from your discipline and The problem is that This review is not really representative if you are not an expert even if you have a Review you don't know what is what it exactly tells tells about this project. So is it a What is exactly scientific contribution of this research? So we designed the system where scientists Can already have incentive within this system have incentive to assess a research project and Results of this assessment Are used to produce? Quantified index of scientific contribution which further can be used by funders by journals and by society to understand what is the scientific contribution of this research and Our review our assessment decentralized assessment process is Is kind of two level assessment process because we have a review level where scientists can Do a review and assign expertise tokens to each review. So it's actually Automatically assigned once you write a review to research project The sum of your expertise tokens in the discipline of this research is assigned to review but also Each review can be supported by Expertise token holders within the discipline of research and And this this information is used to produce index of scientific contribution. So basically Our system takes into account. What was the order of approving and rejecting review? What was the time delay between each review? How much what was the expertise of reviewer how much support each review received and all this information is used to produce this final index of scientific contribution and it in a research Starting getting it even an early stage which can be used for early grants distribution and then during the enhancement and of the of scientific project this index will grow and will let community funders and journals identify identify good research within a system and This index is also used to distribute newly created expertise tokens because as you see expertise tokens is a main government's mechanism within a system and it's also Reputational recognition reward for a scientist. So you I if I have every experts is talking within a quantum optics and means that I did a scientific contribution there and I cannot transfer these tokens. They're not transferable and They just belong to me and represents my scientific contribution within this discipline and There are four there is constant emission of expertise tokens as well as internal currency and The size of a mission depends on activity within this discipline So the more activity is the more expertise tokens emitted and they are distributed to each discipline proportionate to activity within a discipline and then They are distributed between two pools research pool and review pool and and proportion is self balanced It's automatically balanced Depending on proportion of review and research within a system. So within a discipline so if there is not enough review within a discipline the more tokens expertise tokens will be allocated to a review pool to incentivize more review within this discipline to incentivize quality And yeah, so and further they distributed to actually researchers and reviewers reviewers as recognition reward of as a reputation reward and The same way almost the same way as the expertise tokens. There is Emission of internal currency which is distributed as a financial reward as a basic income for scientists and for reviewers and What is also very important that wall system wall infrastructure because we have developed our own blockchain and we were able to introduce new consensus algorithm which actually governs wall the system and This consensus algorithm ensures that wall system is Belongs to scientists and only scientific scientific community can come to consensus to change it or update it So this consensus algorithm we call it delegated proof of expertise contribution which means that scientists vote for block producer with some of his her expertise tokens and Block producers Kind of delegated to maintain the network But only scientific community can come to consensus to change rules to change how How this index of scientific contribution is produced and they have all tools to To evolve the system because all data is public and we will also open source We will also open open source all tools we created for During development of the system actually one of major tool for this is our Agent based simulation model framework to Which we're using to create our crypto economy to create economy of a blockchain This simulation framework allows us to emulate how How this distribution will behave what will be results of this distribution and tune the model to achieve efficiency and Yeah, so This is a high-level model of organizational structure where you can see that Grants and investment can be distributed through the platform and We will also create in diamond foundation, which will be which will initiate grand distribution within the system Yeah, so there are two sentences which actually represents all why we're working on this and Why we're so patient about this? and Actually, this is this this two sentences is the end of our white paper and I Encourage you to read it and provide the feedback if you want Thank you Awesome. Thanks so much. Alex really great now. We've got on Nina. Dr. Nina Louisa who is from DFW and The law firm based here and she's been working with a range of teams Around the world and on their ICO projects. So Thank you for being here and sharing your insight. Thanks for the invitation Yes, I Guess I can skip that first Slight which was initiated by Discussions with Zönke. I think that idea had been presented now for a couple of times in some presentations what I would like to add is that the Science industry could maybe think a little bit more about Adopting the open source philosophy in the from from the software Community because everything I'm hearing today is Somebody is contributing money and is getting like the research back or is earning anything arising from that research So that in the end it doesn't sound to me as if that research would be developed in any kind of open source manner And I'm not a specialist on that, but I know a couple of our clients they really Believe and have proven that you can actually build Revenue models on the basis of open source development. So it doesn't always need to be You know protected research That's revenue generating so that maybe just as an idea We already talked about this earlier. There are different types of blockchains and whatever Whenever you take a look at a specific project You need to understand what precisely are we talking about? That's a question of how far is this actually? Decentralized we have two levels. We have the validation level. So the ones running the nodes the validators And that can be either permission or permission less Permission less obviously Bitcoin Ethereum. That's where the blockchain movement is coming from and then you can take a look at the access site and ask whether the blockchain is publicly accessible or only privately closed groups accessible and Yeah, well the typical blockchain is to the top left and the most private industry blockchain or DLT consortia you see play in the Lower right-hand side angle and I personally believe that the one on the top on the right-hand side the permissions Public ones are very interesting because they allow us from a legal perspective to actually put some kind of enforceable government structure on top of the Blockchain and they don't need to be closed shop like So I'm wearing the t-shirt of the IPDB As I supported that project right from the beginning and that is for example a German charitable foundation it's here in Berlin and What they are trying to do is to organize a public blockchain Where only the members of the blockchain can run the notes so that there is through the membership There is a kind of legal governance also applying to everyone Building up the network and there are certain rules Who the members can be there always must be a more than 50% from the nonprofit sector and Only a minority from the private sector So in case you're interested in supporting this We are always looking for further nonprofit members because there are more for-profit people knocking at our doors Yeah, so I actually like that area up there because it allows us to create a little bit more certainty on the legal side Decentralization so There are tons of projects out there which are Basically typical centralized ventures using at some point of its product some blockchain technology That's not really a decentralized thing although all of those projects always claim to be decentralized You can actually mingle both things You can for example set up it truly Yeah decentralized welcoming Public network on a nonprofit basis and Combined that with for-profit like software development Entities where the founders and the people actually Working to realize that project can also earn some money right because that's always part of their Incentive that they can feed their family from what they are doing That's what basically Ethereum invented when creating the Ethereum foundation doing the ICO out of that nonprofit entity and then distributing the funds to developers By hiring their firms to actually Support the further development of the code. So I think that's something to keep in mind Even though everyone wants to earn some money You don't need to stick with a purely centralized venture and just using some blockchain technology in the back There are I think better structures To build this up What is a DAO? Everyone likes to create DAOs A DAO Is meant to be something that is not creating any legal entity between its participants But it's meant to be a code which is just loosely connecting people for one common purpose Unfortunately If you join a group to pursue a common goal together Then you are creating a legal entity under the most jurisdictions. I don't really came across Any that is not knowing this type of like unregulated entity In Germany, it's called big ebie gesellschaft gesellschaft bürgerlichen rechts It's a simple civil law partnership in other jurisdictions. Those things are called unincorporated Unincorporated entities But the problem with these types of things is typically that This default entity where you end up with when you don't really choose a specific type of legal entity Is that everyone involved has unlimited liability? so that's maybe something to think about prior to starting a DAO and How to prevent that there had been some ideas to make an analogy to Franchise systems for example because it is acknowledged that the partners in franchise systems do not create such a default entity But that is simply due to the fact we call them star contracts because there's someone in the middle Organizing the franchise system and everyone participating have as a bilateral contractual relationship to the center But if you don't have that connecting dot in in the middle Then it will be really tough to argue that you did not form such a default entity So there's a lot of thinking surrounding this how to Actually in a legal fashion Create a DAO which is not really owned by anyone specific and typically what's currently used are the foundations in Germany we currently promote the foundation like Limited liability companies because they are easier to handle But I think there will be a lot of development in that area if you want to collect funds and I think that was always the question. How do we get science funded? Most important thing never rush take your time. You cannot fund within two or even four or even six weeks properly You you need to think through the regulatory and the tax situation tax is really Sorry for that tax is really important This nice example from Philip Earlier with the three guys in Frankfurt asking for funds For their research Calling it a donation token problem is if you're not a charitable organization Then the donation is actually a present and if a present is not handed over within, you know close family Relationships then you get easily very high taxes on that So that's typically something that you want avoid So what they could do they could do form an association like another fine for research Purposes and then collect the donations into that charitable organization Hiring them as scientists for actually undertaking that research That would be I guess from the tax situation a better solution then The the types of tokens and and I'm very fond of the two Research institutions who spoke earlier the Frankfurt Business School And the Vienna University with its crypto economic Institute All of them having their own token Classes and that sometimes makes it a little bit difficult We need over time to agree on certain token classes in order to being able to easy communicate with Each other and I completely agree. It's a very difficult task because you can look at token classifications from so many angles But in order to understand the legal and the tax situations I'm jumping here This is I think the the most important thing to understand we basically Have three or if you include the donation token for types of tokens and they all boil down to the MIFI definition of security in Europe and the MIFI security for the MIFI definition for securities Requires transferability take the box for most of the tokens Negotiability you can also take the box on the capital markets. They are the first question mark and arise But currently the regulators say any kind of cryptocurrency exchange is a capital market. So better take the box Standardized there are very few tokens maybe crypto kitties or something like that, but otherwise Again, take the box and then the first one Where you get a differentiator to other kinds of tokens is the Requirement that security can never be an instrument of payment And that is where you get out of the security token definition for crypto currencies for anything that is meant to be used as means of payment so typically Bitcoin and Ether Would fall out of that definition here in Europe That was it with the written Requirements for securities and we always said within the finance group of the bundes block. That's way too wide We need another criteria Limiting the security definition for token purposes and that is the last one Comparable to typical equity or debt instruments. So what makes a token comparable? And we believe it's basically the fact that you have the right to receive a financial return from the issuer and If that is the case, you should typically be either in the debt or equity instrument area and You can read it now within the publication of the bathroom the German regulator from August this summer Where they also repeat this restriction? So that seems on the German end fairly accepted and we hope since that is a European definition here that also the European regulators as a whole will agree on this limitation for Securities in the token area and that is then also The point where you distinguish From what we call utility token and I must admit we shouldn't use that term anymore because utility token is so confusing the developers Speak of a utility token when they speak of a native Coin of a blockchain that's typically forming in our view a cryptocurrency and not a utility But we what we mean with utility here is that it represents a right for a service or a good You will find typically voucher models or club models In this category and maybe the easiest differentiator between Cryptocurrencies and utilities is when you ask the question is this instrument meant to be used in multilateral Relationships between an unlimited number of people then you're playing in the cryptocurrency area Or is this instrument only to be used in bilateral Relationships whereby one of the parties of those bilateral Relationships is always the issue up then you're down in the utility token category So that's the current view from the legal perspective here in in Europe and that is deciding about many things about prospectus requirements about License requirements It will also give you a hint what to do on the accounting side and on the text side with those token classes Just an example utility tokens always come along with we at right and securities Usually don't come along with we at cryptocurrencies neither They have other problems right if you issue a cryptocurrency You have an immense tax problem because you cannot book a liability or anything else on the Other side of your balance sheet right you increase the active side of your balance sheet immensely through an ICO But there's nothing to compensate for on the other hand and that means profit tax immediately on the difference I lost it I Guess you need to unlock it. I think the next slide was Still have ten minutes the next slide was about the US situation So you always have to keep in mind. Yes You always have to keep in mind That law is already decentralized and a lot of people Don't like this fact, but think about it this way It would be a terrible thing if we would only have one global law and no choice were to live and under which Circumstances, so we might have a little bit Too many of jurisdictions on our globe But the fact is such that law is decentralized is in my point of view a good thing However, you have to deal with it a Technology working on a global basis Nevertheless cannot immediately Result in offering on a global basis. You need to go jurisdiction by jurisdiction and understand What's permitted and what needs to be done to to be compliant in any jurisdiction that you're getting active in and A very good example is the token classification Which deviates a lot between the US and Europe so typically Even those tokens which Do not require any license or permission or prospectors here in Europe will certainly Fall under the securities regulation in the US and the reason is that they ask Whether there are any expectations of profits from the investments from the view of the investor that come from the efforts of a third party including the issuer So when you're buying a token and you're expecting to make a profit because somebody else is building something Then you're a security under the US law and typically that captures The situation that you find in an ICO Maybe to make it more Maybe to make it easier to realize I always like to compare it with the Opening of a golf club where you sell your club memberships in advance prior to the loan being laid Then that is a security in the US in Germany. It would remain the sale of a club membership That's the main difference. Unfortunately, the Swiss regulator has adopted its view fairly far Towards the Howie test so the public Announcements made by the FMA Really read also Into that direction if you have a pre-functional token You always need to be careful because you might be a security under Swiss law So Switzerland Moved a bit into that direction Yeah Not sure if we shall maybe a little bit Imani I think Phillip mentioned that earlier that he would like to see a Euro token There is actually already a Euro token in place that is issued by a French entity called tempo France So tempo France is issuing the Euro token. It seems to have all licenses its needs for that and it's promising that it will pay out the Fiat Euro if you're handing back the Euro token to them So the the the market is already moving into that direction We call this kind of token Imani and it requires a license which our German regulator Will unfortunately not grant to any startups It's seen as a small banking license Because it allows you to make deposit making business deposit taking business You can take deposits from others and promise to pay back the fiat under certain circumstances And that's very highly protected and it's very difficult to obtain That license here in Germany There are other things to Consider for example when you're issuing a profit participation as had been mentioned for research projects earlier You need to Watch out that again You're not in the deposit taking business be deemed to be a bank requiring a banking license And how can you do that? Excluded from that are only bonds, which you cannot issue Because they are not digitized yet And then the second instrument is Subordinated instruments So what you need to do with a proper participation when you want to issue that in Germany, you need to put in a subordination clause Yeah, alternative investment fund that's another large area of Regulation and basically whenever people pool their funds to invest it In in a certain manner together here in the fund regulation, which means that the manager of the fund needs again a license That could also easily happen with research projects If they are not built up in a or set up in a way that they can be seen as an operational entity There are tons of other licenses and it's it's it's interesting to see when you're working on a lot of cases and having a lot of inquiries with the regulators that also they Come up with new ideas and thoughts and currently what we're discussing is the The the basically in-house trading any company dealing with crypto is to some extent trading is to some extent trading also token and the And there's certain circumstances this already might give reason to require a license that got into the focus just a Month ago, and I'm very curious where we end up with that topic So there are a lot of hurdles if people want to But in Germany, I still recognize the regulator and also the politics to be fairly open They don't want to get everything out of control, but they are also not acting in a way that they basically prevent everything, but they expect you to talk to them and To comply with the with the current laws So some recommendations out of practice The white paper is Illegally relevant document full-stop you will not get away with that. So it must be truthful and Yeah, draft it carefully Then alongside of that come the terms and conditions for the token sale They might be combined with the terms and conditions how to use the tokens That's especially the case for the utility tokens or vouchers and the like And then number three is really important because the regulators read already tons of those don't copy and paste Really doesn't make any sense. They won't believe your word Really make make you make it your own draft Communicate with the regulators do not try to hide anything. They are everywhere. They are in telegram they have Developers on their own which look into github. So don't believe that they are not seeing what you're publicly doing out there Yeah, whenever you want to go global as any project, I think I know wants to do Don't work with blacklist only start with a white list with a white list of countries where you feel comfortable and Then decide step-by-step how to grow the blacklist approach really doesn't doesn't work in the regulatory field a lot of A Lot of things that you might be doing without knowing could even bring you into jail So if you want to keep your freedom to travel you better check in advance Where you market your tokens or where you sell it KYC ML? Well, that's basic by now I don't have any project on my desk who's not doing KYC ML anymore It's simply a requirement from the bank if you ever want to get feared back into Your bank account you need to have that done and you can't repeat it if you did your ICO without doing that You have no chance whatsoever to get that information later on So better collect it at that point in time So that you're able to present it when it's needed And otherwise your bank might simply close down your account or freeze your funds Pre-sale nearly any project is coming and saying oh, I'm doing my presale tomorrow to a couple of friends Well, there is no exemption whatsoever for pre-sales So the laws apply for the first Sale that you're doing that's That's simply the case E-commerce rules. I personally believe they are they might be even more dangerous Then then the financial regulatory stuff There is a lot of things to observe and the e-commerce rules like the GDPR are not written For blockchain business models, but they have written for typical internet Business models and so the rules don't really fit. We lawyers don't really know how to apply. There's a lot of uncertainty in that area Yeah, and the last point I already made. So thank you very much Thank you very much. That was right on time and it's just like I I want to discuss so many things here because these are the incentive structures for science and research money distribution and there's just way we can run our own conference on that, right and So the good news is the speakers will be doing lunch available here to discuss things and after So we go to lunch now for one hour and after the lunch will continue with crypto economy with false talk about curation markets to Molecule development. Okay, so we have one hour of lunch break now And you have to hurry some work because many will be only there for half an hour more. Okay, so see you Yeah, cool Yeah, first thing and thanks again so much to to Zanka for putting this whole event together It's been quite amazing for me and for our team to meet so many in this community that are working on kind of these big issue topics in science Maybe a little bit of background to me first like as also more and more people just start coming back from lunch So my background is originally not in science, but in economics I studied at the University of St. Gallen in Switzerland and their first kind of got in touch with with Bitcoin and and Dogecoin interesting enough in early early 2013 And then kind of went through different industries, but just after high school I got really fascinated with the idea of pharmaceutical economics and how the pharmaceutical system that we've built up today and that has kind of developed over the past almost 80 years Works from a macroeconomic perspective and then kind of one of the guiding questions that I Started coming up for me again over the past year is like how can we use these really new interesting? Crypto economic designs to change industries on a massive scale So after graduating I worked in South Africa for a while worked on identity systems There started a company called linen labs, which is today developing this protocol And also worked at a company called consensus, which is one of the largest software development companies in blockchain So my background is like I come from a tech really from a tech product development and economics background And it's been a really fascinating journey for me to dive really deeply into the scientific community And and learn about all of the different aspects of molecular biology chemical engineering Yeah, cool. So just some background So what is the what is the big overarching topic that we want to look at today or maybe a quick intro in the agenda? We're gonna look at what are the general problems that we find with intellectual property and how those problems manifest specifically in the pharmaceutical industry Then we're gonna look at how can we actually tackle these problems with token engineering? So there's been quite a bit of talk from earlier Earlier speakers today around this this overarching topic of token engineering I'm gonna give you guys a brief intro to to molecule Just from a high-level perspective. What are our goals? Then want to intro a curation markets using curation markets one of these crypto economic designs for IP We're gonna look at a specific concept called token bonding curves So really diving a bit deeply in one new design model and how we can use that How we combine that with crypto kitties actually And then we look at curation markets and pharma and some of the core architecture and the challenges that we're that we're dealing with in that concept cool So a large part of pharmaceutical or like of general innovation is based on patents So this was the first patent that was ever issued You can't see it on there, but take a guess how old it is does anyone know when the first patent was ever issued Yeah, okay, so I'm really cool. So it was in the United States in 1790 this is when we kind of started with a legal system around patents this particular patents was issued for a Production mechanism for pot ash, which was used in in fertilizers, and it was actually underwritten by George Washington the president at the time But there's been extremely little innovation in how we actually distribute and deal with patents And today there's a lot of problems with how patents work. So patents are justified in the way that they allow people to recuperate investments into technology and science, but what how they how that recuperation that works is It creates a monopoly and that monopoly leads to we've seen this like it with leads to patent trolls It leads to price gouging on consumers. So these extremely high prices for for drugs That we that we see in certain economies and it also leads to none a non collaborative scientific ecosystem So because patents are now being developed in secret because everyone is trying to create a monopoly That doesn't actually create an environment that incentivizes open source information sharing So that's kind of one of the root big problems that we see with with IP and this the system has hardly evolved Over over the years. It's just gotten more and more legally complex But the underlying economics of it hasn't changed a patent is a monopoly enforced by the violence of the state so to speak What are the big problems in pharma at the same time? So current IP development and research and development in big pharma companies is closed source and Intransparent one of the biggest problems with intransparency is the negative data problem Which probably many of you know from other scientific areas. There's no incentive to publish negative data Because if I'm a pharma company and I commission a study to be For someone to create about my drug if it's if this drug is positive or not If the if the outcome is negative, I have no incentive to publish that because why should I tell people I'm developing a bad drug? To that then it's non-collaborated by nature So each company has to work by themselves and then to create these monopolies and the monopolies Essentially almost distributed between 10 major pharma companies across the globe which have collectively have the financial power to take drugs to market Pharma today and this has been set up over the past 10 years is in an innovation crisis It's extremely resource intensive the average cost to bring any drug to market today is two and a half billion dollars So if you if you go to a hospital and you get a drug there Prescribed by your doctor the cost of bringing that to market was two and a half billion on average It's very risky only about 1% of compounds that ever enter clinical studies actually make it to market So even extremely high attrition rate. It's very slow. It takes 10 to 15 years to develop a drug and And on top of that now the return for R&D So we're investing these billions of dollars and the return is 3.2 percent That that's from a statistic that came out last year And the reason for that is in my opinion is because it's driven by these research monopolies and it and it's it's non-open source on on top of that Because the whole way the system works its revenue driven innovation so the drugs that pharmaceutical companies want to bring to market need to make revenue and There was a very interesting article by Goldman Sachs that came out earlier this year Titled is curing patients is a sustainable business model. It's not Obviously for if you're operating a giant company you need to you need to have consumers for the drugs that you create and historically we've seen We've seen that Some of the drugs that from a company spring to market actually lead to public health crises One of the best recent examples is the opioid crisis prescription opioids in the US which per annum kill 72,000 people in the United States and this is by drugs that are being brought to market and and sold by pharma And it's not it's like it's not that those drugs are inherently bad But if we could bring better drugs to market that would create less consumers that would be a bad thing for revenue And one example there to bring is like Let's say we had a pain killer that people only had to take once every two weeks And it was non-addictive and it was very cheap to produce. Yay, but that would be a terrible drug to bring to market And so if we look at the innovation cycle that that pharma creates like essentially those 10 companies can control What what comes to market collectively? and And I think that's a problem like I think that's a huge problem If you think that the underlying goal here is to like to make give healthier lives to people and prolong people's lives So what is molecule protocol a brief intro molecule is an open source ecosystem to incentivize Decentralized research and development in compounds and drugs. So primary driver. How can we incentivize the decentralized development of these things? Secondly, it's a market-making platform for price discovery and funding of chemical IP To crowdsource the most valuable compounds for humankind Now just think back a little bit if you have an open source system people should would allocate rationally to the drugs that make the most sense Which currently isn't the case because it's closed So at its core the goals of the protocol are to distribute cost risk and the ownership of intellectual property Because all that that drug development is essentially is creating data About whether a specific compound is effective or not in the human body or it can do a specific thing It's just data creation about IP that belongs to someone and then the regulator approves the drug So what we want to move to is incentivize collaboration openness and and competition in this market and much more economic efficiency And ultimately what we're trying to build is an ecosystem that everyone can actually benefit from So from the patients that take these drugs To the researchers that produce them To investors that invest in pharma companies to the pharma companies themselves because as we've just seen Like the numbers are pretty horrific if you think about how much innovation they produce with these giant construct constructs So it sounds too good to be true. It's like we create we want to create a win-win ecosystem But we actually think we've found a way to potentially make that possible and so We started by asking like by applying mechanism design Which is an engineering practice that's widely used in across a bunch of different field But is now really popping up in the field of crypto economics And what you kind of do is you start by asking what are the principal stakeholders in an ecosystem like this? And from our side, it's it's pretty simple. It's IP creators So IP creators would be biotech companies a researcher that discovers a new compound or even a large-scale pharma company It's someone who creates a new thing Then it's data producers so people who produce data about whether a drug is effective or not or whether a chemical compound can achieve What it what it what it says what it might potentially do then you have the regulators and verifies Which need to make sure that the data submitted about the IP is is good And whether it like serves the purpose and is not harmful to people Then you have the consumers which which take drugs at the end of the day Which need cures for for all kinds of various diseases and then you have the investors which make the whole funding Situation possible that we've talked about so much today So the key engineering question for us were what what do these stakeholders want? What behavior should they have and how can we change that behavior using incentive design? How do we get stakeholders to behave differently Demy said it quite nicely yesterday is like blockchain has a superpower to like incentivize behavior And we do that using a principle called crypto economics more broadly But you can only engineer you can only create economics through engineering in this in this principle So one of the subsets here is curation markets Which is a new crypto economic principle primitive that's kind of come up over the last two years It's still fairly new. There's a lot of experimentation happening the backgrounds of curation markets actually for trading It was a pioneered by someone called Simon de la Ruvia to trade memes. So funny pictures on the internet And how do we how do we cure it the most the funniest pictures? And actually have people investing in those pictures, but the background is now Why don't we cure it the best the best valuable compounds? I mean have people invest in those compounds so this is one of the building blocks and Something important to know these are still experiments and not blueprints for for design. So just briefly what is What is the concept of token engineering? So token engineering is a combination of systems and mechanism design plus software engineering patterns It's the rigorous design analysis and verification of systems like an industry And then assisted by tools that reconcile theory with practice It's also a responsibility. So engineering as an engineer who has to build a bridge He an engineer that builds a bridge is ethically responsible for building a good bridge That doesn't collapse We unfortunately saw some of that recently. I think in Italy But so it's it's you need to be ethically conscious when building and engineering these systems and something important It's not token economics. So token economics is like how might might these tokens behave and maybe make investors money? Token engineering is about how do we actually build the system that that can allow these new interactions? Cool, what a curation markets curation markets are so this is a quote from Simon de la Ruvia They would use information as symmetry in the market through the usage of novels skin in the game signals generated through the use of tokenized Crypto economic incentive game Okay, long phrase, but it's basically just saying put your money where your mouth is And and have the market kind of curate information About what might be valuable and what's what's less valuable? We see something like this in the stock market today people putting in making investments But we there's much more in much more efficient ways to design these systems So basically you put your money where your mouth is you stake value or attention It could even be reputation into markets. They will believe will be more valuable And the market's currency now becomes a proxy for attention. That means the more stake is allocated in something the more The more we can see collectively that people are paying attention to it in the in the context of a compound This would literally imagine you had 10 the thousands of investable compounds and now we can actually see as soon as market activity starts happening In any of them and early rewarders are adopted for for early. Yeah, we're getting an early This is done using Most easily done using something called a token bonding contract It's a fairly simple concept once you wrap you had to write it It's a smart contract. I can be deployed in various blockchains most commonly on Ethereum It's a smart contract that accepts collateral so dollars or other digital assets in exchange for tokens of its denomination So dollar goes in token comes out token goes in dollar comes out and and that is essentially that relationship is governed by by a curve That's one example of what occurs could look like you have the price and the supply It's a simple supply curve So you have to imagine as more people start buying in early into the asset They are proportionately rewarded for adopting the asset early But what this now essentially is it's an economic. It's an automatic. It's an automated market mechanism Where we can trade attention in a specific asset In this example, this is a quadratic curve Essentially, how you how you would code this contract is is totally up to the creator But you obviously you need to code it in a way that would make Make economic sense Something that's really important. This is not an issuing or an ICO because No one gets the money in the contract the contract basically people allocate collateral in what they think makes sense And the contract holds that collateral and issues them tokens back and they can sell back and forth to the contract at any time Yeah, if you're interested in these concepts more broadly, I think they have a they could have a host of applications in this ecosystem Some of the best work as I said is from Simon to La Ruvia But if you Google token bonding curve, there's a host of host of good articles on right now Okay, so then a second really interesting concept that has popped up in the in the crypto space Are these cute furry creatures? How many how many of you know what a crypto kitty is more or less? Okay, okay, so actually most of the audience great So crypto kitties are essentially just our digital cats. They're created using a system called non fungible tokens Non fungible token basically just means you can't divide it. It's like a singular entity and now What it is on the other side you so you have this token and you attach it to a link to ipfs Which is then the picture of the cat and that's the whole magic But people got super excited about this it actually to the point where the whole ethereum blockchain slowed down Significantly and no one else could use it because everyone was trading these these cats. It was a hype But I think there's a much deeper thing here Which is namely like why don't we attach patents to these things? So ip is usually based on patents and it's proprietary data time stamp a time stamp claim We can do that pretty easily so what we can do we take the information the data in a pattern and we attach it to an NFT But what we then and so instead of having a crypto kitty You could have a fusion reactor design attached or or a molecule and what we then do we combine these two principles So this is where token engineering gets fun We now say this this NFT is owned by this token bonding curve And what now means now we can actually trade shares using this market mechanism in a crypto kitty Or in a patent for a molecule or a fusion reactor I'm sure there's many other use cases to think of and we can trade attention in like in kind of this combination that we've made I Don't want to get to this first so in our context if you think about this now It's like you if with a digital cat you own the digital cat But now if you give the ownership of the cat or or the patent away to a smart contract you don't own it anymore and But now no one owns it and and so this was something for me to wrap my head around and Trent McConaughey Who's based in Berlin and front of the ocean protocol has done a lot of thinking about this It's like as it's starting to own themselves if no one owns the compound anymore because we put it in this market And now people trade shares in that compound if they kind of start owning themselves and It's a conceptual thing, but yeah, they essentially can own themselves and so what does this enable for For scientists more broadly or like how can you use this as a funding mechanism because I know funding is a is a big Topic in this community So now using these token bonding curves we can have a price discovery and market-making mechanism We can have a liquidity mechanism. So whoever creates the curve can allocate himself Can allocate himself a small share of the initial market and now once there's a tension in whatever research or whatever Combine for example, he's developing that provides a way to get liquidity because that person can now send back tokens to the contract to get out liquidity So funding can be obtained back by selling tokens to the market and it's a model that actually still works with traditional equity financing So now instead of saying I own I own this whole patent in a monopoly You can say I own 30% of this market that is gaining more and more attention Yeah, so this enables a whole this could enable a whole bunch of things named But specifically offloading IP and getting attention for IP and getting liquidity for that IP And no one can own IP fully anymore or or capitalize on it What it also does and this is what I find really interesting it incentivizes open source data publishing Because if I know let's say I'm a researcher and I can purchase shares in a compound or maybe even in a research That I'm interested in I can buy myself into this market and now if I create positive data about it Or even negative data that will influence the market so now I have a way to get involved in the research about projects and and I'm incentivized to publish to publish data about it and Yeah, sorry we had that and so how how is this applicable with innovation in generally or with drug development? Like IP and ideas generally go through this long like innovation cycle and the innovation cycle if you put that over Drug development you have the discovery stage where you have potentially thousands of different compounds And then you have pre-clinical phase one phase two phase three and then the approval of a drug That exact process is is essentially just an innovation process of creating a funnel and narrowing down things that that have the biggest potential and How this is currently done is is centralized within companies Obviously, it's going to cost a lot of money to do that But if you curate that information from the crowd and if you open source that information We think that could lead to Yeah to to complete new ecosystem and industry Specifically in the in the in the chemical industry People have asked us like isn't this more broadly applicable. I think it is so I think it's a very interesting concept But and like yeah, please please go on and explore. We need more people experimenting with these ideas So but one big question is how do we actually map innovation? And there's something called it's we so we are looking at implementing this using sigmoid curves Which is an S-shaped curve and it's best suited for markets that stabilize after a certain growth point And so let's let's just assume and this is more like a like of an experiment Let's assume we mapped we mapped open innovation and pharma using a sigmoid curve like this And what you would have is basically you would have people buying in selling in and out of the market all along the curve contributing capital and Enabling people to get funding We kind of just discussed this before like what does it mean for the IP creator? So an IP creator has can set himself an initial creator stake in a market And at a later point once people start staking attention and value into it He can sell a part of his stake basically diluting himself further to get funding out of the market And so what is the how are we applying this? I just want to walk you through like a very simplified user flow Of like how would this actually all be possible in the real world because it can seem it can seem a little daunting So what you do is you have a chemical patent as a researcher and you move that patent into a structure called a patent investment trust So now you already say I don't own it anymore the trust owns it And then you attach that patent data so the markers structure of a compound to an unfungible token The trust then creates illegal contract that says our assets are now being managed by this specific token And then you set the owner address of that non-fungible token to the bonding curve And then you would set a creator stake So the trust would now receive a certain amount of tokens because it it created the IP and it now relinquishes the ownership of it And then from that point onwards essentially you've created an open source open market for anyone to start buying in and out of that that asset and Let's say everything goes well Upon once FDA approval comes through the drug actually goes to market all of the token holders who purchased shares and attention in this market Can now be paid out by the trust for example in royalties So if a company then comes along and says we would now want to produce this They need to license it from the trust and pay royalties to the trust the trust can recompensate those token holders I think we had a great legal talk earlier. So this is This is a security token. We're not talking here about like like like essentially. We're owning We're issuing ownership in in intellectual property But we're creating a huge distribution of that Yeah, these are some of the core components So we have an access layer of how people can actually get into the protocol Then compounds need to be approved So you can't just put anything on there like you need like it needs to be verified that you are the actual owner of this IP That it's been placed into the trust So it's not like people can put all their IP on this tomorrow Like there needs to be a process in order for the whole system to work because otherwise you're dabbling in these legal gray areas And then you have an NFT factory that creates these NFTs then You create a compound market and ideally in the end the the tokens that could issued by the compound contract and moved into production contract Where you can then talk about license rights or that ultimately then also depends on how the actual drug Will go to market I'm a big fan of Doge. I think any any crypto or blockchain presentation always needs to have a Doge but there is a very high level of complexity that we're dealing here and A lot of math involved in setting up these Kurds in a correct way something that is really cool though is there's Probably 80 years of data about producing compounds about valuation around patents around what these markets could Could grow to like and what the ultimate prices of the broad drugs will be so it's not like we're dabbling in a completely unknown field with Yeah, with economics that are not known, but yeah, we still need a lot of economic modeling One thing I think that we really want to figure out. So this is a pure IP funding model What we haven't taken in this yet is like, how can we get grand systems in there? for Yeah, for like for for rare diseases, for example Or for drugs that are like for diseases that are not where there's no big industry incentive to treat these The great thing about this though with an open market structure like this Like anyone can now come in if you if you know someone who has a rare disease or you've been afflicted by someone in your family Like you can actually get involved in these markets. You can invest you can say I'm allocating capital to something that I think should be Researched so it's a democratization of scientific development for pharma There is governance mechanisms to figure out like once the compound comes to market How like how do you actually structure governance around this? Around around managing the IP that needs to be a board and the trust so on and so forth So a lot of legal complexity is still to figure out But as I said, I don't think we need to reinvent the wheel We can actually it was something that we realized as we started building this out There's a lot of existing market structures that we can mirror that exist today So there's a there's a concept for example called called royalty funds So these are funds that purely invest in patents to get royalty payments from them And so we're getting into this more and more and realizing. Hey, there's all these existing structures But using using a token engineered systems. We can make these structures much more efficient Cool, so maybe just a quick click. I don't know how I'm doing on time. Am I So good. Okay, cool Where we are where we today. So this protocol is being developed by By our development company, which is Linda max AG base in Switzerland Ultimately the whole ecosystem and the open source IP will be managed by a Non-profit foundation in Switzerland, which will oversee the project's long-term research Funding and and development. We're currently about a 10 person team working working on this. We have a team of five developers We're onboarding. We're onboarding different advisors We have a lot of the blockchain architecture build out and once we did that We basically realized where wait before we go deeper into this area into the token engineering and incentive design We need to build a user interface and like actually figure out how people went to act with us if our assumptions are correct What these markets are gonna look like? So that's one really big focus for us now And then building a lot of partnerships with different academic institutions with the industry with with think tanks Yeah, to really start getting a lot of feedback on on the big vision that we're that we're creating Yeah, what do we need to make this a reality you? So I've met a lot of amazing scientists here from all different fields Working with academic institutions having experience and pharma Yeah, so we want it. We really want to build up these relationships at this point We see this as an as an as an ecosystem like we're not developing We're developing this right now as a company, but everything will ultimately be managed by by a foundation and there We need a lot of buy-in and support Because this is a system that will only work as with many blockchain systems If if all participants are incentivized and and feel feel that this really benefits them And this is one big challenge I think that we've had with like or that we've already seen talking with pharma companies that they're very quickly interested Who else are we talking to? and they they kind of want to Yeah, like it sends negative signals to the market if you affiliate yourself too strongly with with single players Yeah, we're looking for advisors team members collaborators anyone who wants to brainstorm with us around this people specifically with background in patent law pharma biotech obviously And we really want to build a community around open-source IP in science Because there's a large field here that we can we can figure out So join our discussion on telegram slack connect with our team Yeah, and I'd loved maybe if some of you didn't understand some of the concepts yet That I explained earlier. I kind of went through maybe too quickly like I think we maybe still have time for for questions Yeah, you would need the pattern first, but now it's the pattern itself becomes open source in a way Because you now have more you can have any stakeholder buying into the pattern and the creator of the pattern doesn't own it anymore so the creator says Have let let's let society decide let the market decide what this is worth And that then incentivizes open-source data creation about that pattern. Do you want to follow up? Okay Yeah, but you can buy you can buy fractional ownership and it which is totally completely impossible today. Thank you So how do the token holders? Decide on whether to and under which conditions to license the patent Good question. So One way that we thought about doing this is that there is a board in the trust So remember that remember this this trust might be super inactive if someone if it's a market that never gets traded A lot of patents never find a use in the world But if if there is a lot of market activity in that in that trust initially you would probably define With certain token holderships you might have a board seat in the trust Which means because you're a big stakeholder in this specific pattern You would then have a board in the trust and ultimately if a drug comes to market or if a chemical finds a Finds an industry use that trust board because they're now they now have ownership over a lot of assets And it's a big thing they would then decide on how to license it Yeah, I wanted to ask about the bonding curve when once it's set is there a possibility to change it Yeah, also what happens? Does it just at the end does it continue or can you like shut it? Yeah So there's from an open perspective There's different models to implement it so some some people have been experimenting with infinite bonding curves So technically if the if the interest in something is infinite then it just gives keeps on forever Our model is using like a finite token supply So at some point the curve finishes and then it's issued all of its token And if then the the demand for that thing is higher those tokens will be traded on secondary market Yeah, so then the token becomes freely tradable What what the what the bonding curve basically acts as is an is an early-stage price discovery mechanism You could also say we're only having this bonding curve until We get approval for preclinical studies or until we get approval for clinical studies And then we evaluate the whole market size Because the information that emerges with that might completely change the outcome And so then you actually work in in like different different funding stages Where after an initial stage you might then say cool now we're redefining. We're redefining what this market looked like Very nice Concept and ideas, but I would like to know have you made any kind of a research about how the industry is open to those ideas because That industry is not to be very conservative and very closed as you probably said Did you make any to talk to people about would there be any openness about even to get started or absolutely So from from researchers that so we talked to researchers that create IP and one big problem that they have is and within five years Department where researchers working or even an individual might have created five to ten to fifteen patterns But he only has he only has time and funding to look at one of them and maybe one of them actually turns into a company So you have all this IP sitting around so that's one big use case for them So research is from a funding perspective because now they can say cool I'll put it on there because I know I'm not going to develop this I mean I don't have the time but now I have liquidity to get to get funding out of those markets and I can I can give those IP I Can leave that IP to be developed by the market in whoever finds value in it And your second worst from a from a pharma perspective pharma as a whole knows that it has a deep innovation problem And those that those problems are like are structural I think macroeconomic problems So the response that we've had is Is positive? I think it's for them. It takes a lot of what it takes a lot of talking to understand how how structurally This may change their market and what we're trying to do But overall the response has been very positive specificity from research that are saying look if you can help us get funding through this mechanism and Allow us to offload our IP the same for biotech companies biotech companies that have done an IPO often only often have multiple patterns But they only have time to take one drug to market So what we see in this as well is really a system to incentivize the unleashing of Our pharmaceutical IP that that isn't being developed the same one I think the same way for large pharmaceutical companies who only have so much funding to take individual compounds through markets But are sitting on a big pile of IP that they essentially might not be monetizing So what they can use the protocol for is to because they know how much has been invested and they have a good sense of What they value this IP to be and if you create an if you allow them to create an open-source market for it That actually create liquidity Creates liquidity for them and ultimately it's good for them because they can put those assets on their balance sheet Which is good for their stock right to like to Yeah, I Really love this portrait. It's cool. I would like to see it for more things than just molecules, right? Just molecule in parenthesis. Yeah. Well, so one thing so our focus is really on chemical chemical IP because it's deterministic In terms of what it what chemicals do what chemical structures do But I think this is applicable in a lot more fields I've realized from building startups and from working at startups that like Pick your market and do that well And we we think this is a market that we can serve an enormous amount of amount of problems And and I think each of those each market is unique Is unique as well, but I could see these same principles and that's why I try to hold it keep it up a general These same principles being used in a wide variety of applications potentially Yeah, I mean we brainstormed about it like if you completely make it independent from patterns and IP as in the traditional way and then more go more to me my markets that they like we have like this idea and you can I invest in this idea and this crazy new concept that I'm like doing research on right? Yeah, maybe this would be a way of like having the meme of markets effects for research idea to incentivize early ideas very early on Yeah, and investing in it I think ultimately if if systems like this take off it could replace because the pattern in this whole system is Just a legal structure to make it work in the existing system Like I mean ultimately this could lead completely away to why do we need patterns in the first place? Because we can time stamp it and we can create a verifiable market that is that is yeah that anyone can invest in and contribute to to an idea Yeah, great. Thanks a lot again. Cool representation. Thanks everyone Our next speaker I guess is Dennis from Nebula Genomics. All right So hi everyone I'm Dennis Christian. I am a chief scientific officer at Nebula Genomics and I'm happy to be here today to tell you a bit about our work on Combining genomics and blockchain in order to address some of the obstacles that The field of genomics has been still is facing So the foundation of what we're doing is was essentially late About 10 years ago actually about the same time blockchain or Bitcoin was invented and the foundation is what's called next-generation DNA sequencing when the first genome with the first human genome was sequenced in 2000-2001 the whole process took over 10 years and it costs three billion dollars if that if that price You know didn't decrease then we won't be talking about genomics today, but fortunately what happened over the past 15 years is a Hyper exponential decrease in price as sequencing technology advanced. So we went down from From three billion dollars to less than one thousand dollars today making personal genome sequencing affordable to many people and This naturally opens up a lot of opportunities for individuals who can get sequenced to learn about Various issues like health risks Medications they should take whether they are carriers of certain genetic conditions and so on but it also creates opportunities for pharma companies who are increasingly interested in Accessing genomic data sets and using that data to facilitate in drug development at different stages of the drug development cycle and Because of that there has this an increasing interest in the industry of getting access to a genomic data set There are sets. So those are just a few examples of you know, or publicly known deals that happened over the past few years most recently in Just a few months ago. There was an announcement that GSK a big big pharma company Invested 300 million dollars in 23 and me, which is currently one of the leading personal genomics companies to get access to their genetic data of their customers and I briefly touched on different opportunities that exist This is just a more comprehensive overview. So for patients on consumers from from sequencing your genome you can learn about the seas risk and Increasingly be able to take preventive actions to actually not get sick You can also learn about pharmacogenomics, which means that you can learn Which drugs you should take on which water which drugs you should not take because you are at risk of having side effects And then you can also do something called carrier screening, which essentially means finding out Which which pathological genetic variants you have that do not cause a disease in you But might cause a disease in your children if your partner also happens to have such a variant and For pharma biotech companies. There are several opportunities as well drug discovery is one So really do rational drug discoveries and just essentially random screens as it's Still commonly done today to identify those genes that are associated with certain medical conditions and then designing Drugs that modulate its activity of those genes Then genomic data can also be leveraged directly during clinical trials as mentioned during the previous talks during the previous talks the cost of drug development are very high and Getting higher and because more and more drugs fail through clinical trials and one potential approach to addressing this issue is really not recruiting people for those trials who are more likely to actually Have a positive response to the drugs or people who the drugs were more likely to work on So the basic idea is just consider those people's genomic data when recruiting them and pick them based on that. So really build drugs that take into consideration people people genetics and Genetics can also be used or genomic data sets can also be used for what's called post marketing surveillance when Companies look at what side effects of cure and how efficient the drugs are in different populations of people But there are currently a few problems surrounding Utilization or generation and sharing and utilization of genomic data That are summarized on the slide first of all There's and those problems on both sides on the side of Patients consumers as well as on the side of the far-mined biotech companies what we have is patient consumers today is that Essentially not enough people are getting sequenced. So if I asked like now all of you Who of you has ever used a genetic test or? Sequenced your whole genome. Maybe you just can raise your hand. How many people knows a genome? Like two people and I assume it's also probably not proper whole genome sequencing But rather one of those cheaper tests that look at only like small fraction of your genome. So that's a problem It's it's already affordable today And you can learn a lot from it a lot of useful information yet. You're still not doing it So we need to fix that and We essentially trying what we're building is essentially our main goal is really incentivizing more people to get sequenced and to share the data And one core problem is that people still have to pay For their data for For learning the genetics and most people just don't see the value of it or they're not aware of the opportunities Then another issue is how many personal genomics companies today operate So the business model revolves around essentially collecting their customers genetic data and then monetizing it themself And what this means is that those people to some extent just lose ownership of of the Genetic data and have no control over who gets to see it and for what purpose it's used and this lack of control transparency just just it's not acceptable to many people and Given that system it's also often not clear how exactly the data is protected and who's responsible for protecting it or if it's protected at all and When companies monetize this collected data, they do not compensate the actual data owners all the individuals Which is another issue so all those all the things essentially leads to as a result of the surveys that I just did that has shown that very few people are Getting sequenced and sharing the data But this model that we have here That essentially just shows us flow through this personal genomics companies which act as middlemen also creates problems for pharma and biotech companies First of all the issues with consumers that I just described lead just to the general lack of data, but this is Made even worse by the fact that we have then such data silos Essentially every personal genomics company becomes a data silo and they don't share the data among each other and they often have data in different formats Which makes it for researchers very difficult to access data that they want and Because of due to those middlemen researchers also don't have Direct access to patients and consumers It becomes more difficult to for example ask for additional information that is required to do for the for the studies and Prices increase as well Those middlemen, you know, they want to make profits at as high as possible and they're charging accordingly for the data and They are all possible challenges associated just in this handling of genomic data related to just retrieving it storing it Analyzing it which I will Briefly talk about as well So this is a survey we did ourself And it's results are similar to other surveys too As expected, you know very few people responded to have actually already used any kind of genetic test only 2% For most people they just consider it too expensive or just not worse for what it offers About a third 29% and as a 20 and as a third have privacy concerns and And the remaining people have all different other kinds of health issues and then in terms of cost many people really think that you know $1,000 is too much and How what they're willing to pay is about $100 which is what today those cheaper genetic tests Usually cost, but they are much less comprehensive and the results are much less useful to both The individuals as well as the researchers who want to use the data Then the data access issue as I mentioned before data fragmentation is one issue There's a for-profit biobanks that have their own data sets they are non-profit biobanks that also have their own data sets and there's no Currently there's no Sharing between those happening even in some case when they're just you know publicly available online like for example for the personal genome project It's there still often not not you know integrated or are not integrated and it's difficult to make them interoperable Then genomic data at least the raw genomic data when it comes out of sequencing machines. It's pretty big It's about 200 gigabytes per person. So it's really difficult to just you know, send it around on the internet due to this data size Then there's a lack of automation. So as a researcher who wants to access a larger data set It means that you have to manually go out all those different biobanks talk with Someone's they have asked what it is I have tells them what you need or shade prices and so on Transfer payments after that signed contract. So it's a very manual process It just makes it very difficult and slow to collect data when we spoke with pharma companies How long just that takes them to collect data? What you heard is that just a half a year to just just get the data that they need Then there are regular restrictions when it comes to accessing data For example some countries like China quite strict about it and simply do not allow Genomic data of Chinese citizens to leave country borders So all genomic data of Chinese citizens has to be stored in China Which obviously make it difficult for like any kind of non-Chinese Western company to access the data and Of course privacy risk as well with a perceived or real They just deter people for only you know participating in any kind of data generation or sharing efforts and When it comes assuming you actually acquire the data that you want and then you want to store it manage it analyze it There are a number of other issues. You have to deal with Storage spaces one genomic data is quite big at least the role genomic data so as of now, I think the biggest source of Data that we generate I believe like YouTube and and Twitter is also pretty big So text data and video data are pretty big But there are some predictions saying that genomics are gonna take off took over and you know Be the biggest data source that we will be generating in the coming decade So it's predicted by 2020 we'll be talking about exabytes and by 2025 about set up by itself of data And you need to store this data somewhere. So that's a problem And obviously then you also need to compute power to process all those data Some of the typical algorithms that are executed on genomic data are quite resource intensive So in addition to storage you also need a lot of compute power And when you do analyze the data and you're dealing with large data sets It's always a question how to organize the data how to keep track of what you're doing How to make all the results reproducible and so on. So those are issues as well Now after talking for a while about all the different problems I want to tell you about what we think can help address these issues So this is a model that we are proposing and are working on implementing What it essentially is it's a it's a network appear to be a network That that uses blockchain and that connects that consists of individuals which can be consumers Which can be patients but also existing Databases and it connects all of them on a single network and makes them essentially accessible to Researchers in at pharma biotech companies or or an academia. So what those researchers can do? They can query what data is available figure out what they need by, you know Sending sending, you know queries to the network and then they actually also can compute on that data without moving that data Out of the platform of the system. So it's a it's a distributed computing Platform so they just submit their workflows. They make payments and then get get results back and What what this arrangement enables is a number of benefits for both patients and consumers as well as pharma and biotech companies For patient consumers, it means that having this kind of direct connection with researchers means that When the researcher comes in and let's say the data that he looks for is not there yet He can actually subsidize the sequencing costs even fully pay the sequencing costs of that individual So for people it creates an opportunity to get sequenced at a much lower price or potentially even for free Then they also stay in control of the data and can decide who they want to share it with and when they do so do it very transparently and that's what blockchain can help with which I will talk a bit more about later And this whole model of keeping the data in place also contributes to data privacy since since since access to data can be restricted by the individuals themselves and Obviously individuals can then also get compensated for data sharing. So this this platform can function as a marketplace We think that many people will share the data for altruistic reasons simply because they want to support Biomedical research and drug development, but they have the opportunity to monetize the data as well And all this will we believe leave lead to an increasing genomic data availability For farm and biotech companies the system Can function as we call it end-to-end genomic service platform So we should just comes in queries the network find the people who are of interest for the study If the data is already there pays for access Then access the data computes on it gets results if the data is not there yet subsidized sequencing costs the data is generated then accesses the data and and and analyzes it and It also enables faster access to data Because what we hope to create is really you know a single network with a single You know point of access where researchers can go and get access to a much larger data set and Through that address all those issues about data fragmentation as and data silos What it also offers is direct access to patients and consumers So it's not just about you know dead data but actual access to on to a person behind the data and Dynamic data generation so when a researcher wants to know additional things that are necessary to conduct a certain study He can just go ahead and do a survey or just send a direct message to that to that individual on the network and You know removing the middleman also makes consent management much easier Which is right now quite an issue when it comes to health data in general Blockchain which is you know as you know a immutable public ledger. It's very well suited for just managing access control and consent So individuals can just add entries to it saying I allow my data to be used by that researcher for that purpose Then it's immediately visible to all participants and then this concept can be reworked later by adding just another entry to the blockchain So this just illustrates The genomic data generation part Which is quite important because you know most people have not been sequenced to date so the data is simply not there actually generating the data is a core of our mission and We think we can automate and paralyze and make this data generation more efficient through blockchain and smart contracts So, you know data buyers researchers can just queries a network identify people who's interested in Then deposit a certain amount of tokens in a smart contract This can then be Accepted by those individuals who execution of that smart contract and the tokens are transferred to a sequencing facilities The data is generated and then made accessible to both the individuals who they belong to as well as the researchers who paid for the for the data generation This illustrates how the platform Looks and works like so there's essentially three components to it The first one is the storage system so without going into much detail we're using a distributed storage system that Essentially supports all available clouds, you know, like Amazon AWS Google cloud Microsoft Microsoft Azure cloud and so on so the data can be distributed across all those different clouds store they're securely encrypted encrypted form and Be computed on which is second component of the system So it's a distributed computing platform that manages workflows in such a federated environment where the data stored in different places and it uses uses different common standards for for computing and Yeah, integrating different bi-informatic tools and it supports because of that all those important things like Version control and reproducibility and so on Yeah, so important thing is that blockchain is used for Consent management access management the data itself is stored off chain Because obviously blockchain is not suitable for storing, you know petabytes and of data and the third part is actually our blockchain that fulfills several Several functions as I just said mainly consent management. It eliminates middleman and creates this public immutable Or like a pent-only database Through smart contracts it enables fast paralyzed data data purchases and The concept of The data access can essentially be managed by multiple parties who called Who who who who hold split keys so that there's no single party relying on Just so that so that individuals don't rely essentially on a single party to just manage access to the data So this essentially just distributes trust across a large number of of network participants And then again once the data is generated data access can be purchased again smart contracts Similar to the data generation scheme where payments are made Accepted and then the blockchain so-called valid data nodes they just Collectively decrypt the data each of those nodes holds a key share and then makes the data accessible to research who can compute on it and Data protection is very important to us and I touched on those different properties of the system that ensure data protection Here they are again summarized One is just distributed storage and computing bringing computations to the data instead of sending the data to someone that's obviously Helps protect data privacy because data can be analyzed in a controlled environment So what I haven't spoken about at all today is privacy and kensic technologies that we're using for example right now we have a we're working on a homomorphic encryption based Scheme that enables the data to remain encrypted while it's being queried And later we look to add additional computations on encrypted data, especially genome-wide association studies and Then blockchain technology of course also adds to data protection as it enables a very transparent way of data sharing data access sharing multi-party data access control and Also governance of the whole network that incentivizes all participants to govern the network in such a way that that maximizes data privacy and protection and what we're hoping to achieve by By doing all this is essentially a network growth driven by different factors Sequencing costs first of all will keep going down Which will make it more and more affordable to get sequenced where the people can people can easily pay themselves or researchers Can come in and pay the costs for them Then as As the network grows Its value will increase it will there will be more data bias will be attracted from the industry more researchers will come in will be willing to pay more and more for the data and As researchers also learn more about human genetics It will become more and more useful to know your personal genetic genetic data And more people will be incentivized to get a sequence and and shares the data Yeah, that's it. Thank you. All right Thank you very much for this presentation In the interest of time maybe one question and then we'll just have Roman Yeah, thank you very much Do you see this correctly your main audience for for the whole thing is actually the Industry right or do you see any good connection to do this in science in the open? Is there a good? Approach or applying this approach there as well Well, I mean researchers in academia They obviously also use I need genomic data the research they do is just less focused on developing new drugs but more focused on just basic understanding of human genetics and They we want this want to make we will make this network accessible to them as well But we is the way we think about it is that in most cases when an individual is approached by such a new researcher for academia There we think that individuals will be compelled to just share the data for altruistic reasons to support research While in cases when when they approach by farm biotech companies individuals will actually be willing to wanting to monetize their data So I think the incentives they're just a little bit different, but we want the data to be shared with both those parties Great So there will be a coffee break later. So you guys can discuss more. I am happy to introduce now woman going to tell from knock This is platform knock and you're gonna tell us more about it. Yeah I can have this Thank you very much for having me. It was a very last minute, but I made it and it's great to be here So I'm presenting a vision that is being very much materialized And be released shortly and it's a platform for collaborative scientific discovery So instead of it's it's quite a generic solution for a lot of scientific problems And it's got a lot of access along which those problems are solved So instead of starting with the list of problems which have been listed on many occasions during this conference already I'll start with a vision and As a scientist Or as a thinker as a person I want to contribute to the body of knowledge in any way I can and anywhere I can and by anywhere I mean not like on the beach, but Rather anywhere in the body of knowledge or whatever I can see solution That's the kind of generous approach To I think participating in research or knowledge production and if I see a solution I you know ideally I feel generous I want to offer it and then people can go away and use it I'll be happy for that, but current system prohibits me from doing that because I'll be screwed over and I will never get any benefit from it and if I'll just be generous I will not earn any living So to be Generous I need to trust people that I work with or the people that I offer solution To and I need to trust the knowledge that I build up on so the knowledge, you know the solutions that I provide They need to come from a solid knowledge base Which is not false. Otherwise the solutions will not work and I will have wasted my time and people's time and Also in this situation I want to be earning some Revenue and be rewarded for my activity but still going back to discussing the problems in science a little bit I Want to point out why do we have these problems and What is science I define science more than as a method rather than a subject So if you're looking down the microscope, I don't think you're doing science necessarily It's only if you're applying the scientific method to it then you're doing science Validating you making some assumptions. You're coming up with hypotheses and then you testing them and That that is science not a specific subject So to scientific method is quite hard. There's a logical structure and Observational structure. There's measuring to tools which need to be sensitive and valid So to maintain scientific method we built hierarchy of people who we trust To be very logical and to know what the good measurement is. That's how historically arisen and they maintain this method by Controlling the people that they work with and validating them. That's what the hierarchy of scientific research that we have But unfortunately It all evolved into gaming the system so all these people who are high in hierarchy the actors bottlenecks of Flow of knowledge and if you're in a typical lab, there will be postdocs and PhD students And the bi will be on top and you can only communicate your knowledge through publications Which the bi will control whether you can do it or not and the funding Is also controlled by the pi's for example in the UK you cannot apply for a funding if you do not have a ten-year position And then in terms of collaboration with other people if you belong to two labs and you do your pi's do not Get along you cannot possibly collaborate So you can see how this hierarchical structure instills the bottlenecks of the knowledge flow and Stops collaboration, which I think prevents Faster progress And they all do this of people in hierarchy do it or we all try to do is to leverage our position and reputation for our own benefit rather than for the advancement of knowledge and progress and a lot of our Production contribution is evaluated on our name on our reputation, which is an indirect measure of knowledge so This is the old system or the current system that we're talking about which is on your right And it's a person-centric system and a lot have been said about standing on shoulders of giants I'm not sure about that but definitely what we're doing is we're standing on each other's shoulders And that's how the current system is structured. So we have a very highly structured people organization Which produces a lot of output that via the publishing Infrastructure goes out into this poorly organized body and here I represent the Hierarchy or research establishment in the center in the pyramid and then the output goes out into this cloud of papers which are Very tenuously linked to each other. So what I'm proposing is to reverse this structure and And to build a knowledge centering system where the knowledge is highly structured and it's at the center of this Organization and then you have the protocols Which are secured by the technology that we're discussing the blockchain. So we're transferring the Guardianship of the scientific method from hierarchy to the protocols and then we no longer need this hierarchy and Then people can be in this cloud instead of the knowledge and I don't know about you, but this reminds me of some sort of visualizations of entropy and entropy is related to How many possible combinations each system can have and in the person-centric combination System the knowledge has lots of permutations. So because it's not very highly structured. It's like a gas So there's a lot of uncertainty about the knowledge and that's what we're experiencing with poor reproducibility and stuff whereas In in the knowledge centric system the knowledge is much more structured. So it's Has a lot less uncertainty, but the people structure has lots of permutations. So you have lots of possibility for collaboration I Do not have a formal proof to this, but I'm working it So here it is in the system represented. You have certainties we building the system along Around the knowledge graph, which is tightly kind of structured system of knowledge and you have Protocols that are shared and enforced by the network And you have a value distribution in incentivization that's built around the graph and The freedoms that you get from the system is the project participation. So each person from this cloud can via different protocols can Make a contribution to any point in the graph There is no reputation. So the whole system is anonymous. So it's impossible to leverage your position like why the name or anything like that So it provides more freedom and more opportunity for collaboration this is the Basic structure of the system. So it's a fully decentralized bit to be a network And you have machines that run what we call a peer and you have users represented here in as human figures They can either own the machine that runs a peer or they can connect to nearby peer and Kind of the stack is we use hyper ledger fabric for blockchain and network IPFS for storing Heavy kind of data Loaded files and raw data sets Then we have an IPI and UI that communicate to each other and to the system components To allow user interaction. So we We try to make the system as adaptable as possible because as we can see from many presentations People have different use cases and they design different protocols before that was genomic protocols So you have specific needs like protected data structures and Limited access to it and different validation Protocols that you need to apply to that data So What our system allows which is quite different from previous presentations is You have custom protocol specifications. You can write your own protocol how you validate stuff How you analyze stuff and so on and you can use any arbitrary language. So you're not limited to a smart contracting of the Fabric platform or whatever you choose And you can run the code regardless of the environmental operating system So this is what we call modules Modules are those bits where you kind of specify how your system how you want to run the system And you have as I said, you have validation computation analysis and graphing functions and any user can choose To interact with the system with whatever this will be like a selection of different modules on the system And you can plug in any analysis of computational software Into this core system with a blockchain so that Any open software or any other software in for scientific Research and computation that already exists actually can be used on the platform You have then custom validation protocols and custom graphs So you can do graphs manually or you can design Functions that draw the graph for you for example phylogenetic graphs or I don't know molecule chemical molecule relation graphs You have custom civilizations like your draft. So basically you can adapt the user interface to your specific Use case so that it's really useful for you And you can play with custom token value distribution Which we're keeping open at the moment It wouldn't work in a big system, but because we're designing the system and we don't know what the protocols would be best suited to scientific research in an open environment. I think that's important to keep open so to give an example the When you have a contribution to submit to the network you define you specify what's the contents on the node are so you have Datasets some sort of logic claims and the logical relations between those and You also specify the position of the node that you prove of the contribution that they're proposing in the graph so I specify the contents and the nodes connections and When it will be accepted you You know your authorship will be permanently linked to that node So you both know what you have contributed, but also more importantly you would know Where a contribution lies in the context of the rest of the knowledge and it's quite fixed So if you think for example when you buy a Real estate property The land registry records Not only what your house is and maybe it's like less interesting even But you know you have a balcony and whatever three bedrooms, but it also tells you what the address is and it's very important just if you Only specify, you know the contents of the house. You would not be able to find it and you're not really protected So when you submit the node it has to go to validation and the two types of validation machine validation and human validation machine validation Wherever we can use it for to validate analysis or graphing functions I mean outcomes of the graphing functions and the human validation is pretty much a peer review which we have adapted and We have a kind of game theoretical protocol for peer review where author nominates a bounty and then the peers or reviews are selected from a fraction random fraction pools so you have Minimize the potential for Kind of rigging the system by your friends reviewing your positively for example Reviews have to pay stakes Before they doing review and they have opportunity Well, there's probability of them losing them if they do not perform well if they do not produce good work around time or even For example in cases say for example you have six reviews and four reviews voted yes and two voted no Or valid and valid then the minority will lose their stake and the majority will receive it so that everyone Maintains an interest in actually doing work In this validation protocol and then afterwards anything within the graph can be challenged so Peer of you can be challenged After this protocol and all the nodes and their connections can be challenged and remodeled and there is a kind of curation market slash Game theory protocol or behavioral economics behind it So and that provides accountability Especially in the case of peer review because usually what happens now is the peer review is done and that's it you forget about it And nobody talks about it anymore So Lots of peer review is kind of an unfair, but there is no way to appeal about it and Once the validation has come through and if in case of acceptance the network then reaches the consensus on the known Content and its position on the graph and consensus on the graph itself So everybody on the network has exactly the same information about current state of knowledge This is kind of the basic Workflow of something that would be similar to a paper Submission thing so How a community can engage with it with this platform. So say for example, you have historic literature put it into the platform and then Small or slightly larger community can resolve it into a more efficient graph Then they can put proposals on top of it Represented by peas here and then Ideally they would go to funding bodies. So it's almost like making review and getting your Implications from the historical literature and then you go to funding body say well these proposals seem good Could you allocate potential funding to this and the funding body can allocate? Money where which in case could be tokenized or transferred in tokens They can allocate the funding by instead of allocating to one lab It would allocate it to a body of knowledge that can be produced in the future and anyone within That domain can get the share of that funding So you you never bet only on one horse there and then in the end You know after some time passes the community the funding is allocated the community builds extension to this graph and You know new data produce any nodes produced and then some milestones or breakthroughs reached like discovery or a molecule for example and the funding arrives at that node at that point in the graph and it trickles down to the rest of the Discovery chain that participated in the production of this Graph so in that way you no longer need to hire what are you doing? In isolation Until you reach this breakthrough point you can contribute at any point of this graph and let somebody else Reach the major breakthrough but you would still be rewarded for your contribution in this chain of discovery and a slightly more So that that's kind of a general View of how the platform could function In the same way like we're writing research papers, but on more granular level But here's a more specific example where things are a lot more specified So this is a this is a project that we work with with pathogen surveillance network And these graphs are representation of Ebola outbreak and each node represents sampling at clinical centers of different pathogens of Ebola virus and then it's Assembled in these phylogenetic graphs or you can you know specify where it is geographically or you can have also time series and see how the Spread of the disease happened. So what I'm trying to communicate here is On this network with this software that can be plugged into the core you can have distributed computing so say for example somebody sequence genome in Africa and The genome sequence you put on the network. There are some machines that can come in and analyze it for a genetic variance to see which clones are Which and whereabouts they are in the geographical locations You have automatic graphing functions. So in a longer doing it manually like in a historic literature example but The network what network allows you to do is to reach consent consensus of methods. So say for example, you all know that the genomic Sequencing data is valid and it doesn't have huge differences that would allow artifacts You have again a consensus of graph data So everybody knows that the graph that we're working on is this one and not some other graph that you generated locally And you can use these graphs for custom value assignment economic Consentivization so say for example, you found that the new particularly infectious clone is emerging is in Guinea You can incentivize that whole part of the graph Or you can increase the incentivization and hopefully a lot more sequencing Contributions will come from that So we've got a functional release that's coming out in February 2019 where we'll have two modules this kind of paper module and then pathogen surveillance module then will experiment With the network and see how we can play with real situation and see what the outcomes will be and We'll invite anyone to engage with this by you can come and write your own modules or experiment within your communities in terms of research Both on science or on behavioral or economical models Thank you very much So we are quite well on time Maybe we can have two questions and then we have a coffee break and for half an hour So are you I can ask a question. So are you at which stage are you currently with the like? implementation of this is it Well, we developing it And it's the functional version will come out in February. So the stages. I mean we've done quite a lot of Kind of back-end and network establishment and communication between I bear first fabric and design some ways That and tested some ways that allow, you know programming language agnostic Interaction of different components. I didn't understand where the content will come from Are you going to start by new findings with new findings or? Well, you probably start with historical literature. I mean nobody starts with new findings any papers has introduction so You always have to put your findings into a content. I mean if you want start with new findings historical publications. I meant sorry The access to historical publications to publications that have been published before Yeah, scientific findings. So I didn't get how you will bring their meaning into your system Minorly or by some sort of scraper It's I mean say for example you you have something to contribute and you want to put some historical literature in it You take five papers you put them into the System if you want to resolve them into more granular graph if you don't want You just leave them as they are Thanks. I wanted to ask in your peer review section. You mentioned things like author bounties and you also mentioned like Random fraction polls. I was just wondering how you're going to use that Well when you have a submission you kind of get a template of what you're submitting so data sets and whatever and Then you specify how you want your peer review being done and then you Nominate a bounty so there's a native token on the platform. So I say I don't tend tokens which will be equally divided between peer reviewers and then to select the peer reviewers a call goes out to A random fraction so the you can never predict who is who is actually gonna receive a call And then let's say you specify that he wants done of five peer reviews. So they come in The first five to self-recruit Will be in your review poll. That's how we're doing at the moment, but maybe there's a slightly better Model of doing this. I don't know. So I love the idea and of organizing knowledge. That's pretty great How do how are you going to make sure do you have any plan for it that if people put in? their knowledge their pieces of knowledge whatever it is going to be data or Publications in this sense also historical that they're not going to be Overlapping so that in the end we really make sure that we build up on the knowledge and not just built kind of parallel chunks That are not connected Well, the community says there's like what you call a curation market and I call network cohesion protocol So they you know anyone any user or all the users are incentivized to make the graph more Coherent so resolve redundancies or where you need maybe some nodes are too chunky you need to separate them and create two out of one and also, you know Maintain the right number of connections and make sure that they complete Does that answer? Who are going to be those curators that sense? Anyone the the users on a platform are anonymous and anyone can participate In that process, so it's not there are no there's no reputation. There are no experts They're only economic incentives for right behaviors and their penalties for wrong behaviors on the platform so if you choose to do something you Have a chance of earning something but also you have a risk of losing it So it's up to you if you feel an expert enough to go for it Thank you Will does this or will it have an AI system associated with it? It can have yet. So you can have actors could be a eyes I'm not specifically building a eyes Here but a eyes can be plugged in Yes, and would that be open source with the algorithm to be open source. Well, the platform will be all open source You know the core and all the modules will be open source and you can build your own modules And we're building like a dummy module which can easily be taken and build up into whatever you need Okay, so we have a coffee break now for half an hour and then we'll just meet you again The person whom you're trying to reach is currently unavailable Person whom you're trying to reach is currently unavailable Please leave a message after the beep All right, everyone. Hope you had a lovely break now. We're back in the room for a Awesome talk from someone from Akasha. Has anyone heard of Akasha project? cool They are definitely big players that ought to be ought to be Notice for the work what they're doing and today we've got Martin talking about collaborative research not just about Akasha But some other really interesting things he's been doing around distributed organizations. So thanks Martin Thank you very much. Oh super loud So I Maybe before I started presentation And Two things so one is that I've been here before Charing the two sessions, but this is only because I was chairing the sessions, right? Because this is all Zunke organizing this but importantly tomorrow and the day after we have this workshop steps that don't ask me to co-organize with him and You can check it out on this website and if you're still interested in joining we are at Coat University and Yeah, you can you are happy to come to us and or send me a message and join either one day or two days and just talk to me about this Then the idea of this talk was to talk about decentralized autonomous organizations what I thought is to take a step back and we had already very nice presentations today about How such a DAO could work on the legal side and how it can help to finance research I try to go and and give you kind of a journey through the history of of science and Theoretical background there and how this could inform us how we can actually build blockchain applications and systems in a for science Word to the Akasha project so so I've just recently started to work with this Akasha of the Akasha foundation was founded by Mihai Alicia who is a co-founder of Ethereum and The the project that's currently Well known as a crypto economic experiment if you want to say that's this Akasha depth decentralized application And you can go to the website Akasha dot world and look at it download it There's also a web version away a browser version available now, but this is this is one aspect of it What what we are now currently working on is? growing a team That is exploring how we can use basically blockchain applications to build Collective collective intelligence and so it's we are kind of we describe as at the border of blockchain and collective intelligence Which is a new term maybe for some of you and but just fundamentally to to have a paradigm shift in how organizations are working and that's a That definitely has also an application in research and science and this is how I came to the whole field Because I had an idea that I thought there is something about this whole way how it's self-organizing that could be very well applied to research And then I read Zunka's paper and that's how for one year now. I'm in this rabbit hole so Actually, so to start with I want to make a claim and that is that the research discovery process actually already is decentralized and The poor problem that we are facing is that our organizations are currently not or not yet So that's the way that we are as human beings currently organized. We have very hierarchical structures Scientific laboratory resembles very much the organization structure of the German military in the First World War and of Companies and the universities are structured in the same way and there's some social biologists That that have studied this and compared it to other systems of organization in biology And they describe the human system basically as we are creating partitioned hierarchies Because we believe this is how we have to control people and organize them and the instructions flow down and parallel streams and Actually creating a lot of bottlenecks We have multiple levels of command and a lot of information is lost in the centralized system Also also be as the risk of information loss or you have a single load of failure so decentralization now as actually The process to move back from a centralized entity through a decentralized network of hubs and nodes and Spokes to a distributed mesh basically so the the word decentralization at least according to the interpretation of my colleague Philip Sheldrake also is actually describing the process of moving through this three phases here and The internet in itself it initially was a planned as a distributed mesh network where you have no single point of failure It's a military research project or in the initiative ultimately So if one node is destroyed you will still find ways to wire around and find information and Flow happening so in this system We basically try to eliminate single nodes of failure in another way speaking scientifically the PI in a way Is a single node of failure in that sense that that that he has a lot of burden to carry you have to write the grants you have to Review papers you have to write papers you have to take care of all the students and things are at least getting stuck there And much worse things can happen In terms of also abuse of power and these kind of things that we have seen recently some institutions in Europe So Now science actually is a decentralized self-organizing system and here I refer to Michael Pulani who Wrote this article the Republic of Science and actually I'm grateful to Stefan Kraus was a professor on Oslo And he was at the last meeting and he introduced that at his essay to us and and so I it's an analysis of how Scientific structure actually is organized and he did it because he was concerned about the policy changes in the UK and how they are changing to a more quantified research policy system that tried to Direct the choice of the research as what to do and to evaluate them which in the 60s wasn't really implemented yet which is implemented today and So he describes that signed activities of scientists are coordinated and rely on constant communication and The adjustment of independent initiatives occurs in response of the results obtained by others It's kind of obvious we're building on the shoulder of giants or and we heard us in the previous talk as well Then he goes on that he wants that if we are changing this we may basically Bring science and the scientific progress to a virtual standstill that is just the second part and I'm not Complaining about I'm just trying to analyze what we are seeing and now when you think about a decentralized autonomous organizations and the Concepts behind it. There's a there's an important term that we hear many times and that is Stigmarie, okay, and this is a social biological term that was introduced Biologist, I guess he was in the in the 60s also and that suggests that if you can define it as Important determinants of an individual's behavior are stimuli from work previously accomplished so I found it really cool because it really mirrors the analysis that we had from Pugliani on how how he thinks research is working and Actually, Stigmarie was used to describe how termites are building their their complex structures without an apparent building plan and there's another Study and as a book called the ants by by Hull dobler in the 80s And he says individuals in a dense hetero key Respond not only to the Stigmarie stimuli from work in progress, but also to stimuli received from their neighbors Okay, and and and this process is actually something we can illustrate and funny enough It was illustrated not in the 80s, but again in the 60s in the essay by Pugliani and that is he gives the example of a Group of people that have the task to build a puzzle on the floor and this is this long text is better put text But you can read it later. That's why I put it here Just tell you so so you're building a puzzle and you have one you have one organizing center like the boss and You're blindfolded and now you're presenting the pieces of puzzle to this guy And he's the one that tells you where to put the puzzle so that's a very leggy process It's not working well, but what works very well is if Instead of doing this you have all the people Maybe some have specialized tasks like looking a bit cleaning up and doing other things But in all that they are looking at what my neighbors are doing where I am at and And maybe that helps me to instruct to find the slot for my own piece because I see the progress of the others as well And again, this is actually How we could describe a scientific process and and we are looking into scientific literature We know what others have discovered. We are building up on these hypotheses. We are not gonna reinvent the wheel so From this basically, how do we now approach and the pro decentralized science and What we need according to my understanding is three boundary conditions So we require a free flow of information Apparently if we are restricting the access to information We are locking out not people in very elite institutions But potentially those that are not able to for instance access the scientific literature as the equally as We can do here then We need to establish some rules for governance So I guess what is very important is to to be open and inclusive and to somehow have a System of reputation established as well that allows us to filter the good and the bad things and the crazy things Although there are examples that this works actually quite well And an open project and we need to remove obsolete intermediaries because they are Currently not doing is a good deal. So first one Free flow of information is actually established as of today because as some of you have probably also installed on their Google Chrome browser I have a plug-in allows us to in real time when we read a paper and science on nature That's behind the paywall you download the PDF. It goes directly to sci-hop I just did it with my last paper and blood like the pre-print that was behind a paywall is already there you can read it and I Asked the journal is it okay to have a pre-print and they told me no you cannot have a pre-print this we are not doing this Then we are not going to accept it. So 2018 for a biologist. That's the reality and The theoretical concept behind this is that data and knowledge are actually something that's defined by a economist and Berkeley called so-called anti rival goods there's also work by primavera the Philippi on this Approach and that is that actually value that we can gain as a society from freely disseminating knowledge It's larger and it's exceeding the value that the profit that a single entity can gain by putting the information and knowledge Behind the paywall and this is I think important to inform us of how we should design system Design decentralized systems that are there to to create value for us Unfortunately, we cannot necessarily measure all the externalities that that occur But in principle that would be the case and a good example for this is the distribution of language So imagine and you you would you define you you are gonna speak your own language now And you try to buy a bread as impossible. It will not work, right? But the more people speak your language the the higher the value would be for this new language that you have developed and An example for this would be not only in that knowledge like medical information or publications But also computer code would also fall into this category of an anti rival good The more people are using a software the more valuable it becomes and Linux is a prominent example of that Then open as an inclusion. There is a nice example and Laurie was speaking yesterday. And so there's a very famous mathematician He was basically autodidactically training himself in India to to work He lived most of his life in severe poverty and he tried several times to to send his documents to To to Britain to to mathematicians, I guess an oxford and their comment was well He has a taste for mathematics and some ability, but he lacks the educational background and foundation needed to be accepted by mathematicians So that's a very sad thing because we have a dot org email address or an affiliation with an institution we are somehow thinking that we are chosen to be the smart guys and the voices of others are just not heard or you cannot actually even make the The way to be heard and that's a really silly thing Now there are already ways of successful collaboration And this is a super long text But I find it cool because I'm from a biomedical field So just want to give you one extra excerpt out of this and that is so whenever Bush was running the War Department of Research in the US they built in at MIT the radar lab to try to shoot down the German planes even at night. It's really awesome stuff and To to get there they had to put the people in it in a team together and and and had a physicist to work on this But there also was interest in medical research and then he said after the war for biologists in particular for medical Scientists, which might be the spine medicalists, so I enjoyed a lot There can be a little indecision for their war work hardly has hardly required him to leave the old path They will basically carry on war research and they did carry this on in their familiar peacetime laboratories and their objectives are Remaining much the same. So they are fighting like this. Yeah, we have no systematic approaches of curing cancer, but the physicist They have left the epidemic epidemic pursuits. They were kind of put in these camps Where now they had to work in a combined effort, of course They were now triggered to determine you have to build this but at the same time they had quite a lot of resources and the freedom of choice and In a combined effort they felt the steer of achievement of doing something as a team They have been part of a great team now as peace approaches when asked where they will find objectives worthy their best and actually we see Physicist or physical funding has remained relatively flat over history and Interestingly, we see quite cool projects coming out of it It's also that physics to defend of the biologists and other fields is a more mature field. So we are like 200 years behind physics and biology and medicine I'd say but Nevertheless, so the CERN would be an example for a large massive and actually quite hierarchically structured collaborative experiments put together by humans. There are other examples and Like Linux the internet Wikipedia Polymath project and even the Ethereum Foundation They they all start with something that Peter Glor from MIT at the Center for Collective Intelligence Describes as a collaborative innovation network, which usually starts in a small group of people that have a crazy idea They are intrinsically motivated and that's actually actually a nucleus initially and surprisingly by the way because we always think this field The scientific field and this is so big and all these thousands of scientists and no Actually, there's really very few that are really super experts in one field and and the rest are just running after them like the lemmings I mean if you think about CRISPR and Cas9 is this micro RNAs if you're familiar with that It's like one like two three amazing papers and then everyone else is just doing it You have like a peak thousand papers the next year and honestly most of it you can just burn, right? So it's this nuclear group that started field and and that's actually can then have a very big impact on society and create something radically new So we we don't have to close our eyes and say it's impossible to start as 10 or 15 people are for the theorem something That's gonna be very big So how to scale this that the importance is that in order to remove the single point of failures Nothing works if you imagine you would now entrust Facebook or any other company currently exists to manage Globally such innovation networks. This is not likely to happen, right? so and this is where I think the The idea of a decentralized autonomous organization and the decentralized infrastructure that we are currently building fits very nicely in and To just paraphrase it it would require Or enable us to have transparent Stakeholder controls and decide control and decentralize the organized entities and we have heard a lot of struggle here already these days Actually struggle of understanding how this can be implemented and we are not sure really what is going to work from that So at Akasha we have now started to to think about something that we call the conversational now And I'm not gonna show these diagrams now, but I just want to say this is informed by work from Paul Pangaro who He phrases he put this term out that wealth creation has shifted from prior knowledge to the ability to gain new knowledge and action And it's a bit complicated can sink it in but what it actually means is if we have free access to all the information We have to wonder how do we create now? Some value to to at least feed the people that are working on doing this right and and and creating the new information and And I think that's where the key struggle and the problem right now is how can we find new mechanisms that enable us to Yeah, to get paid for the for the conversation that we are doing because this is the time that we spent Talking with other people or thinking by ourselves. So having an internal conversation and and this is a resource that is limited This is our attention. Yeah, and someone that got it very wrong is actually all these social media of today that are just Sucking our attention for stupid stuff But the networks are there in these platforms But but the paradigm that they have used and this is what Paul Pangaro also says they have been wrong and there was a discussion in Berlin in 2011 if you look at this his talk where people in the audience were Exactly debating the same and said well, you know, we can tweet we can co-work on the internet with all these things But do I trust Twitter with all the data that I would put in them? And and so this was before Ethereum before the blockchain Movement basically and I think with this new technology There's a new way to open this discussion and that's what we are currently doing and now in the end. I give you an crazy idea So the end of institution some some radical thoughts of how could we change a research institute or build a research initiative in the future So basically I would say there would be no publications Results results are annotated by librarians that are experts in data annotation They are publishing the results and very clear description Basically instantaneously on the institute server. So the institute maintaining the database and the integrity for the for the For the academic workers and maybe you have a librarian in every lab That could be actually cool and then scientists work within this system at the heterographic network level and in order to create This heterarchy and you get rid of the hierarchies You would have a pool of definitely qualified people and usually they're always more than they would be fitting in the institution So instead of having impact factors and p-values Fighting about about this kind of stuff. You would basically run a lottery. Okay, so we had a pool of People that could be included in the next round of research in the institute and we give them five-year appointments like Universal basic income for five years to do research That's kind of a fellowship. You have to be qualified for this and definitely you will earn less than you would earn in the industry So it's something that you have to really wonder whether you want to do it But what we want are people that are intrinsically motivated. Yeah, and not people that that are kind of Doing it necessarily just for the fame and not contributing much to our advancement and Basically anyone could be contributing we could even say that those that are not going in the First tier track of like going through a good university and getting the education qualifications to enter the lottery could still enter the lottery by Proposing good ideas and maybe helping from the outside on the on the platform to work on the kind of crowd-sourced Projects and that could earn you something not much reputation, but just the token to take part in the next lottery And maybe you make it in And actually this is something cut funny I told Zürich so I thought when you read this book the glass bleed a beat game from Hermann Hesse He describes this world of the scientists and the world of the new more normal mortal people and and he describes science as a game Or basically any any kind of intellectual thing and this is so important and like today They don't they don't even want to think about real world problems They're just getting an expert in in one field and that's the scientific world and and they take also some normal people in and and And and and educate them But then normally they go back and do companies and stuff But those that are really intrinsically motivated sacrifice their life and live kind of like monks in the scientific field And I thought okay. This is cool actually this as actually how maybe scientific Work used to be as well and anyways, I just recommend to read this if you are with the background of academia and So I want to thank you. This is the end of my talk. I'm currently I'm working with with Mihai Phillip Sheldrake and Andre Samba who are forming our nuclear research team at Akasha and We are doing other things and this was now really on my reflections on research and blockchain, but yeah, I Just want to thank them too because there's a lot of influence I get from them right now. Cool. Thanks Have you figured out how this actually interfaces with Akasha network yet or is it still under research? Well, okay, again, so so what I told you here is kind of both ideas and everything and With the within the Akasha system the reason why I got kind of sucked into this and like a year ago I I uploaded some of my genotyping data to to to Akasha in December and And I went a description below about what I did and all the primers I used the melting temperatures everything and so I said, hey, here's my lap book I'm gonna have a new thread column on the Akasha depth That is now here my lap book for all the genotyping and so now everyone could go in and look at this and actually vote on it Even could even maybe fork it and have a new thread and add other comments And so it basically this is already there right so and it's very simple and what I didn't say is like products like the polymath They are just a block. Okay, that is just an open block where mathematicians put challenges and then piece by piece try to direct the people to the answer so It's simple, but I'm not sure if I answer your question, but yeah Thanks. Thanks for the nice talk And it was really inspiring to to see all the literature what you read and get inspiration from and that's what I want to Give a kind of link to Steven Johnson writes about technology and innovation and he wrote a book about Wonderland And he writes in that book that all the new innovations and new technologies are rising from a playful way so he says that play and Yeah, doing silly things without any reason talking on Twitter with other scientists Can lead to really crucial and and super innovation So if you're looking for your next book, please read that cool right cool, then we have a Skype, okay So greetings from Stefan Krauss. He actually wanted to Skype in two, but it doesn't work out and I want to announce his Conference, it's called notes conference. It will be in March in in Oslo, it's about It's about new funding methods that in the research new incentivation structures and it's blockchain will be a Big part of this conference. It's for us and fifth of March next year Okay, now we have a skype in by Jason Jason from novella tech and he will talk about doing an SEC compliant ICO and he actually did it with his project of a he will he will talk about this Sorry, okay. Okay. Well, this is it up. I Want to use the time and think I know the camp under the camp is Nound to you too many to basically most likely Organize the RPE conference in years and he helped me a lot and also confidence to like set up this conference without him I would not have would never ever have done this here. So thank you to Anu if you see this on the livestream and Is it working? So he might not be able to see us. Okay. Hi Okay Hi, Jason. Hi Good. It's okay. Oh excellent. Okay. So you can see us for the life in the 30 seconds delay It's like like flying to the moon or something, right? No, this is like eight seconds, right? Oh, no Okay, good It's yours Jason, okay Yeah, can you see my screen? No, we can't see your screen Yeah, let me try to see if I could figure that out. I just did a Skype update. They wouldn't let me use it without an update. So You know, they've been screwing around with this stuff Every modern conference has to have a Skype or Google Hangouts thing and where we go into Technologies, it's just a tie part of the new way to do it. Yeah, I mean, I don't know Skype is really I don't know what's gone on with those guys, but they took something It's really just without your slides. Is that okay too? What's that? Just like tell us what the certificate in the background read No in your office. No, I'm just joking. So you just like go ahead without slides. Is that okay? Yeah, I'm having a hard time hearing you son. Okay Okay There's a delay There no, it's a neck. It's kind of like you must be in a big room because there's quite a an echo Okay, so we drop it or you just like tell us. Oh there you go. You saw you sound good now Do you want me to just go ahead and send this to you? Yeah, I mean just like talk without the Light then yeah Well, that would be let me fire this off to you son. Okay, because There there's some yeah Miniscule things here Freakin Skype. God. I hate those guys Yeah, see there's a fun aspect in the Skype things, right? Yeah, I mean, how do you take such a good thing and screw it up? We want to do the same with signs, right? Yeah, good thing and screw it up. Yeah, they would screw up all kinds of things. All right I fired this off to your blockchain email address. Okay, okay, so just go ahead now. Okay, and You have three minutes. I hear somebody whispering Yeah, okay, we just start okay Okay, pal you should have that your your notes so anyway, thanks Sonke for inviting me in As you guys know, there is a lot going on out here in the regulatory space You know 2017 was a really bad year From a token perspective because the amount of fraud that took place In the ICO space So, you know, I just came back from a conference in Malta. I was in a conference in San Francisco the week before that Chicago the week before that there's Definitely a movement of foot for security token offerings as STOs or STO and one can think of a stow as a regulated ICO and I think this year 2019 is going to be the year of the stow and Anybody that thinks they're gonna launch an ICO in the mature markets say Europe Asia and the United States They're gonna be rudely awakened. I think last count there over a thousand subpoenas out in the US for ICOs that were done and they're subpoenaing Not only the ICO issuers, but they're service providers. That's their lawyers and accountants So they're going after everybody in the ICO ecosystem that improperly raised money and You know before I go any further. I think it's important to recognize that a I'm not a registered financial advisor. So Use all of this advice at your own risk And so let me put that out there and second one This is going to be very US centric and I'm sorry for that and Part of that is because most of the developed countries seem to follow in behind the US Lead on these regulatory issues now This has not been the case a hundred percent in the ICO space because you have Malta Isle of man Singapore a couple other jurisdiction Switzerland who have taken the bull by the horns and move forward But now the best is coming online and you're starting to see some pivot back to what the US regulatory environment is looking like so the first thing that I'm sorry, I heard somebody Okay, so the first thing to think of a stow ICO is really a crowdfunding sale and What that means is in essence that anybody can come in and buy and In the US that creates that right off the bat creates significant Regulatory problems part of it is because the US government believes it has to protect investors against unscrupulous fraudsters and mainly Unsophisticated investors have to be protected against these unscrupulous fraudsters so That's first and foremost as a crowdfunding sale as an ICO without that regulatory backing who's qualified to do It the other thing that's important to mention is that stows and ICOs are really about raising capital at the end of the day let's call it the way it is it's about raising capital and If you raise capital in exchange for something that's going to be Regulated that's going to be considered a financial instrument So as I said the ICO can be thought of is unregulated and the STO can be thought of regulated and this brings up this big argument of securities versus utilities or security token versus utility tokens and One can break down currencies into Really three major categories the alt coins the utilities and the securities I'm not really going to focus much on the alt coins except they use their own blockchain Or they can also run on top of existing block chains the utility and security tokens run on top of existing block chains, so they're not running off their own and the You guys know these right? Ethereum, Omni, Ripple, guys like that are the block chains that these would run on I think Sonke at some point is going to have his own block chain So we'll see a utility or security token from any suspect But that's a real quick overview of those and so at the end of the day, what's a security token? it's a security and that means it has features above and beyond utility and It can still have utility features, but it's got these features up and above it and in our case What we did with these securities and exchange commission was we took Securities and it's very important to recognize as security you're conveying a form of ownership to the holder and so we backed that with a special class of equity and What we had told the SEC was yes anybody that buys our tokens Because we're making it a security. They're going to get the rights to a special class of equity And one might think of it then as an option or a warrant so that you buy your token and then at some point down the Line you'd be able to get equity as a result of that The second thing is is that this should also convey some kinds of voting rights now in our case We provide voting rights within the path of things like You know where the conference should be held. What kind of features should be provided? Who has the rights to vote for grants that sort of thing, but you could go further and say well They have rights to corporate governance that would create Really significant issues from a governance perspective if you start offering these people to their trading tokens Voting rights at the base the warrant level. It's not they're not a deal from a digital perspective to manage it but it does when it comes down to getting votes for liquidity events say M&A or IPOs where now you've got to send out a tremendous amount of documentation and get those votes collected but We used an ERC 20 fungible token You could use a couple of others obviously to do that off the blockchain using a smart contract and There's some liquidity Requirements or lack of liquidity that you might run into depending on the regulation that you have in the US You know you could buy the token today But you're probably not going to be able to sell it tomorrow You're probably gonna have to wait 366 days before you're gonna be able to resell that token now That's still better They end the current corporate situation in the United States where if somebody makes an investment in a company at the equity level You know, they're probably talking five to ten years before they're gonna see an ROI off of that investment They have no liquidity for a long time. That's dead money So buying a token would get you within a year a little over a year one extra day over a year Liquidity opportunity so that it would be tradable with others And of course you have the rights to exchange for fiat at that time and and that's a really powerful reason to do it So now I'm gonna talk briefly about some of the Liquidity and regulation side of this one is that the liquidity is gonna depend on the regulation that's used and One other thing that's really important is that you have to use a licensed security exchange So all these exchanges that everybody's aware of today. You can just right wipe those right off the table with the US and There's only one security platform on board today. That's Tepla Rumor is there will be three or four more coming on board in the next few months And as you guys know NASDAQ and NYSE are both planning for token exchanges that would be security exchanges So those guys are moved really heavily into this and this landscape is going to mature rapidly over the next 12 to 24 months I'll give you some comparatives because there's a as I just came back from the Malta event. There were a lot of There were a lot of pundits who claim to know what all these us regulatory environments And sub paragraphs are and let me just tell you that 99% of the people you're gonna hear this stuff from they don't have it down and And it's trust but I suppose but distrust but verify even say and So what I'm going to do is run through five paragraphs in which you can right legally raise capital in the United States and Do this under the snow side of the equation? So the first one is the rule 504 regulation D It's the only 504 that you have to worry about and you in this one You can right raise up to five million dollars twelve months No more than that if you were to raise any more than that you'd have to return that capital to whoever made that investment Anybody can make an investment That's a really nice thing about this is that anybody can invest you don't have You don't have to verify investor stats that makes sense anybody can invest nobody you don't need to verify investor status Those are all restrict restale. You're not permitted to advertise and there's no ongoing reporting So that's a really elegant One to go with is the five or D the one downside to it is you can't be advertising and if you guys know if you're out on telegram and You're talking about what you're doing that's advertised you get into a lot of trouble really fast with the SEC that So cutting down really tremendous way to get the information out about what you're doing In the 506 B, which is the next one. There's no cap on the amount you can raise So in the prior one I mentioned there was five million this one. There's no cap However on the permitted investor side, it's unlimited to accredited but you can only take up to 35 Non-accredited investors and you have to verify that they're sophisticated investors So, you know, you you can raise let's say you've raised 10 million dollars You can only take 35 non accredited investors and you have to validate somehow that they're sophisticated investors And you generally do that with a form whereby the investor validate where she is capable of doing it Again, those tokens will be restricted from resale for a period of time. No advertising is It's a you know, you can't go out and advertise this stuff in telegram on a website and Fortunately, there's no ongoing reporting and that's really important because as you know Filing in the SEC in the US is all expensive in of itself before, you know file a red D But to have foreign reporting on top of it's just an additional at cost The 506 C which third type has no cap on the amount you can raise. So that's nice It's unlimited accredited You can't take any non-credited. You have to verify the investor status Obviously to make sure that you don't have non-accredited in there. It's restricted from resale You're gonna have the same problem with tokens there. The nice thing about that Advertising is that's really good So you have a no cap on the amount you can raise you can only raise it from accredited investors And you have to validate their status But advertising is allowed and there's no ongoing reporting. So that's a really elegant model to go with now we get into the crowdfunding Which reg a's and there's two tiers of the reg a so there's reg a tier one in which you can raise $20 million within a 12 month period of time on that 366 day you can launch a new $20 million raise Anybody is permitted to play in this space no need to verify their status and Existing security holders can sell into the off 30% but validate that Advertising is allowed and you can also use to test the waters before and after the offering so it gives you this Little quasi way to advertise before you spend time going out and doing a really big marketing campaign Because in the test the waters if you don't get any positive feedback You might want to really seriously think about a whether you do the offering or be the way you're Advertising the offering talking about it may not resonate So that ability to test the waters is a really nice way to make sure you don't dump money into a do or die situation and there's no ongoing report almost Almost done and the next one is the reg a tier two. We did that one. It cost us about $180,000 And that was in the Midwest. That's fairly inexpensive. It allowed it fairly inexpensive relative to folks Very difficult for a startup to do Allows you to raise $50 million in a 12-month period Anybody can invest you have to verify their status 10% not accredited and cool and anybody can sell into the offering and Advertising is allowed along with test the waters and there's ongoing reporting requirements. So you have this ongoing Expense and I am clearly that you have to spend so it's the one that just keeps on cost The last one is the regs. Yeah, and many of you may be aware of that That's the one you put it up on a platform like start engine and you can raise up to a million seventy thousand Anybody can invest there is some ongoing reporting there But the investor claims have to be verified, but that's all done by platform the regs. Yeah Can't be thought of doing a pre-sale. It's a way to think of it as a pre-sale and anybody can play So you also have bad actor disqualification on all of these so you better plan for AML KYC Across the board. So with that I think I've covered kind of a high level that the SEOs are here. The ICOs are gone if plan on using American investors The US has very long arms and they do not have any problem coming after you Wherever you are outside of the United States, you're getting US investors. So sorry about that Welcome to the land of anti science Thank you very much. I said one quick question like a really yeah. Yeah. Yeah, okay. Is that yep? Okay. Yeah, you're just like one So in terms of okay, so let's say let's say a person Invests, did you hear anything about if people were to actually invest in I guess in one of these ICOs? That didn't didn't do their due to our are those people on the hook Yeah, so here's the deal You're gonna see a landslide in my opinion of class action lawsuits against these ICOs going forward As I said, there's a number of subpoenas out right now And if you are an ICO and you raised money and you didn't use SCC guidelines to do it in the US You're you definitely you're gonna see the legal end of this and you're gonna see a lot of inexperienced Entrepreneurs that are gonna be ruined as a result of this. They just didn't know they thought oh my god I can raise money and this is really nice and they go out and do it They're great at marketing, but they didn't do what they were supposed to do right at the tour link Thank you very much. So we learned something and have a great day Jason. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sorry I couldn't make it son. K. I you know, I'm really jealous of you guys that are there and Sonke, I think you've got a really great thing You're all exhausted. Yeah. Okay, so have a great day and we'll miss each other next time again. Yeah. Bye. Bye Yeah, I just I miss Jason like five six Okay, it's the last talk before we have the open panel is by John and They just were one we're funded by welcome trust right and you talk about So we're based in Sydney, so this is the first time we've actually managed to be here In person and after Jason's experience. It's it's a really it's really nice to have not be worrying too much about the tech We just give the presentation I'll talk to my Yeah, or we just connected to this one Okay Okay, so just to introduce myself. I am a cognitive scientist by training. So I've begun working in psychology and then moved more towards neuroscience side of things and Really the focus of my research over the last few years has been on neurodevelopmental conditions things like autism and Down syndrome and Lank language difficulties and kids dyslexia that kind of thing And I guess over the last few years I've become increasingly frustrated with the state of research and the way that we do research and I guess that's partly that is So generic to the field of psychology So I think you know psychology has really been the sort of ground zero for the replication crisis that is affecting science so we now know that These problems are sort of fairly generic across the scientific spectrum But it really began when people started realizing that lots of psychology studies didn't replicate even when we thought that they were You know pretty solid pretty solid research But there were also a number of problems that I think are more kind of germane to the kind of more specific research that I do in in the sort of clinical side of cognitive research So at the beginning of this year, I co-founded Frankel open science Which is a really a sort of collaboration between researchers on the one hand like myself So people with more of a background in tech There's my co-founder is Pete Godbalk who's been working in blockchain and and development for for like four or five years So that's well the the blockchain side at least for four or five years, which is relatively speaking a long time obviously and so One of the things that we're really thinking about is you know trying to solve solve problems And there's been lots of great discussions over the last couple of days But one kind of comment that really sort of struck out for me was some of that Carmen said Yesterday when you know what we want what we would what we're trying to do is build tools that make it easier for Researchers to do good research to do open research to get the best value from the efforts that they're putting in And you know what what lots people trying to do is build tools, right? So building cool tools But the strategy that we don't want to do is just kind of build tools and then just hope that scientists I will come along and use them and as Colin mentioned, you know different scientific fields have different needs So really what we're trying to do is develop Solutions to problems within this fairly narrow field, but then doing it in a way that then we hope sort generalizes To other fields that we can then sort of work with So what are the problems that we we're facing particularly in this sort of area of cognitive science with some clinical applications so so one one of these sort of driving forces for me starting this idea was This idea that you know the tests that we're using to assess patients and people with different conditions In a cognitive way that it's a really sort of outdated model lots of it's a lot of it is done with pen and paper tests They're really expensive You can cost like thousand literally thousands of dollars to buy these tests And then you have to pay for the bits of paper that you're writing on each time you use it It's really inefficient because it's pen and paper and then there's lots of like opportunities for human error And also it's kind of inaccessible for lots of different populations So working with kids with autism I found out that was You know lots of tests that we use they they perform really poorly, but that's just because You know that they find it difficult interacting with other people But also accessible in terms of the fact that to administer these tests you need to be really highly trained And so that if you live in like a remote community or somewhere that doesn't have services of psychologists or Speech therapists and so on you just can't get assessed so we wanted to develop applications that make all this easier In the broadest game There's also the idea that you know if we were trying to make sense of conditions like autism we need large data sets and Really most of the research that's been done today has been severely underpowered And so we need collaboration between lots of different partners lots of different researchers people in sort of clinical space And if we're going to do that then we also need the infrastructure for sharing the data for making sure that it's secure And it's all being done ethically So really this is this is the kind of problems that we were trying to solve so as Sonke mentioned We've we've just received funding from the world and trust for a small sort of pilot application that we're building this is working with a clinical neuropsychologist Professor Greg Savage who's an expert in dementia so this first up is focusing on memory abilities in dementia although the Obviously in our so diagram or animation This is using a child as an example But the idea is that the first step of the application is that researchers collect data using the application No one way And instead of the data sitting on the iPad or then being transferred to someone's hard drive It's automatically and securely archived in cloud storage initially And that's that's done. It could be lots of different places. It could be somewhere like fig chair or open science framework And that allows us to build in to the data Collection this this sort of process of data archiving which then makes it easier to share the data and obviously That means that then the researcher has the ability to share that immediately with collaborators within the team And so none of this involved blockchain so far But the the blockchains comes in when we Look at the payment for this. So instead of paying Thousands of dollars you pay tokens. So you play pay Frankel tokens each time you use these applications And what that then means is that as you're collecting the data There's already a record of the fact that that data has been collected that goes immediately on the blockchain So we're calling it metadata by metadata like literally just meaning data about the data So it would be pretty limited. So just you know, the Who is this a collecting the data? And information about where the data has been stored, but obviously if the data is still kind of Secure and unlocked you can't actually get the data itself and there obviously wouldn't be any Identifying data at that point What it does mean though is that this metadata is immediately available to the public So anyone can interrogate the the blockchain look at who's collected data with these applications So that there's there's a record of all the data that exists and then the final stage would be at the point of Publication or at whatever point it makes sense to share the data more openly either publicly or to You know the scientific community And that again would be situation-specific So the idea is at this point at any point the researcher can unlock the the data It makes it easy to share the data instead of having to sort of search around on their hard drive for the data They can just change the access privileges to it And then the final part is that as a reward for sharing your data openly you get refund of some or potentially all of the tokens so oh And initially the idea is that we are building these apps like we're doing with this welcome trust grant But the idea is that the infrastructure that we're building around it We can then integrate with other applications that other other researchers or other app developers build And as I mentioned we're starting with this fairly narrow focus on cognitive assessment tests But we think that in the longer term this may be a model that might apply to other fields of research So just to reiterate what's happened in this sort of scenario So we make it easy for researchers to share their data It's allowing us to build standards for data and metadata into the application rather than forcing researchers to kind of do it So independently at MOSFest, which I attended last weekend or the weekend before losing track of time There there was a big discussion among psychology researchers about Developing standards that could be used across like lots of different fields of research And it's all fairly straightforward, but it takes time and it's kind of not the kind of thing that researchers are going to do Automatically so so we're making that all easy for them We're providing a public record of the existence and location of the data so it makes it findable and It's important that you know when we're thinking about the replicability Problems that we're facing a lot of it is because of selective publication of data. So a lot of data is collected and then not published so At the very least we're providing a record of all the data that has been collected not just the data that's been published And one thing we're thinking about is you know including within that meta meta data on the blockchain the hash of the De-identified data and then and then we can start thinking about how we can create a sort of scientific supply chain from the data As it's being collected all the way eventually to what's coming out in the paper and also we're adding Incentivization so there's an incentive to share the data Even if the study isn't published so if you collect data and then you can't get the research published You still can essentially get your money back or your tokens back By sharing that data and that might be useful to other people And and also there's an incentivation incentivization to share your sort of code or your applications that you're building as a researcher for collecting data And potentially any other analysis software So you you also get tokens in return And importantly when we were talking about incentivization, you know these are tokens that their prime purpose is for collecting data So we're not incentivizing people with tokens that are exchanged for money We accept incentivizing them with tokens that allow them to do more research and we think you know If you're trying to incentivize scientists what you want to incentivize them is is the ability to collect more data and do more science So just finally I want to talk about a concept that we talk about a lot at Frankel This isn't mine. This is this is comes from Pete my co-founder and Another guy he's working with called Tim and they talk a lot about incremental decentralization. So This is the idea that you know the end goal for a lot of what we're trying to do might be full decentralization of research And there's lots of cool ideas But it's gonna be really hard to jump all the way there in one step. And so what we need to do is you know work with Technology like centralized technology that does already do a good job. So things like fig share and OSF Already exist. And so it makes sense to work with those and eventually we might move towards things like IPFS As as a you know as the next step But we want to take it one step at a time and the other the other part of it really is, you know Trying to remove the friction points. So if you want people to be using these we want them to make it easy for them to Get into using cryptocurrency tokens and that's not a straightforward thing to do a few years ago Pete Tried to persuade me to get into Bitcoin When Bitcoin wasn't what wasn't With what it is now and I didn't because it took me so long to try and figure out how to create a crypto wallet. So One thing that we've we've worked on and that we now have and and you can actually I'm gonna talk about this tomorrow The steps worked up is the Frankel Google powered Sorry the Frankel Google powered wallet So this is something that we think is pretty pretty cool So instead of having to go through all the rigmarole of creating a wallet you can literally sign up and create a Wallet an Ethereum address that you control using your Google account and It's it's quite clever how it works. I don't have time to explain it, but I'll talk about it more tomorrow And essentially it takes two minutes to click and then you have an Ethereum account and sorry In the room address and a Google account. So if you want to know more and come to the workshop tomorrow And I guess that feels like about 10 minutes Thank you. Thank you very much strong Thank you very much. Is there any question comment? And actually brought us already into an important thing. It's not just to build tools, right? Yeah, any comments questions? No, if they are not Thank you again. Okay. We already Yeah Okay So, okay, cool now So let's do like we plan for 45 more minutes. Okay So it's the last talk and I want to invite you to participate in an open panel and We'll discuss all problems blockchain We've shown that we are not naive towards what blockchain can do right in science We went to like to be completely destroyed our visions Went through the new database Decentralization new ways to like constrain the access to data went through them Tough technological things there actually if we if we want if we want to like consult politicians one day to change the law We should like understand the limitations of the technology at some point, right? So that would be good and then we went through like the crypto economy of science new incentivation structures and Publishing of course the peer review process and Well had some interesting concept in investing in early-stage project and I just invite you now to come to the panel and Everybody else is invited to contribute and we just like have an open discussion and Sasha and Benedict will like kickstart the discussion Okay, so Carmen Lombard and whoever wants to come just come up here. Okay? Yeah Who wants to like have a seat here John you want to join us somebody else like my can join us you can join us But you are all tire parties. Oh, this is a panel. Hey, you're all welcome in the panel. No, okay Yeah, okay, okay, we don't sit in line. Okay. So yeah, we have it open Okay Yeah And then we're off to really to do some fun, right? Otherwise we would be asleep soon We have to wake up and then we'll talk about a little bit and then we have beer Yeah I can sit too So Zürnke false Benedict and me to kickstart the panel otherwise nobody would come up so we have put together a couple of thoughts and The idea of our thoughts is that we we don't really know where it's going. We discussed this for two days and We think it's complicated. So maybe we have do we have the slides? No, we don't have slides Well, it's pretty simple slides only have a couple of words on it So I will I will just say what's on it. So we have a title slide first And so I said something about like the the open science ecosystem where we say that basically what what Benedict and I typically do is we look at organizations and when people throw technology at organizations in In most cases these organizations do not use the technology the way that people Intended when they designed the technology and what goes wrong why they use it wrongly or why they don't use it at all It's typically what goes over our our desk and we look at this for Particularly the academic field. So we looked at why people withhold data why people don't Publish open access and so on and so forth and now we try to look at what happens in in Blockchain for science and a lot of the discussion that we see comes from basically the idea that Blockchain for science seems a blockchain in general seems to address From an infrastructure perspective a lot of the issues we see in a scientific system So in a way we we we called it that There is the idea of good scientific practice and a lot of the The artifacts of how good scientific practice could work seem to be seem to correspond to Aspects of blockchain. So you had what a slides on this of your tweet yesterday where someone you've used the merchant norms and basically linked them to What that means? In blockchain and so the the fundamental idea is science is somehow either corrupted or some people say it's broken we need to fix it in some degree to make it better and Blockchain seems to be some way of a technology we can use it so The good thing about that is that people have good intention. They want to make science better It's not really sure. We don't really have consensus in what exactly is broken. So some people say well, we have Ethical problems that openness is kind of like a thing other people say well We have productivity issues. We really should be faster in the system So people have different opinions on what's broken, but all in the room kind of agree that it's broken Actually, not not not we were not so negative This was like yesterday. Yeah, we discussed we discussed that it's like kind of okay and compared with other systems Yeah, yeah, yeah, but it's okay, but it's a general perspective like towards open science as well and yeah It could be better. Yeah. Some people go as far and saying that's really Yeah, maybe decentralization somehow like yeah, and some people say some bill. I mean their projects are building tools, right? It could be better. Yeah And so what what we discussed when we prepared for today or when we thought about that is this all goes back to Good scientific practice and people say we can have this Equivalent in infrastructure to what good scientific practice is and we thought about well What actually where does good scientific practice come from? What what do we consider as good scientific practice and we and and that this is actually a very complicated complicated thing So if I and I work in a team at a university in Amsterdam where we research mostly innovation openness and collaboration and a lot of my colleagues don't have a problem at all and publishing those results in and Completely closed subscription channel Because in their field the way the people that they talk to they seem to consider it as good or okay Scientific practice to do it that way And so if you give them something open something different they'll say well, that's nice But that does not really work the way that I was taught what good scientific practice is And I think that the concept of good scientific practice is very very complicated because as we have learned before we have a Decentralized scientific system in these decentralized hops We might have hierarchy and this hierarchy also influences what people consider as good scientific practice But we don't have a central hub where someone can just say this is the way it should be done Everybody kind of has to come to that conclusion on their own That's also why we all have a different idea of what exactly is good scientific practice Where we should draw the line and what could be could be done better And so I think that the one of the first ideas. I think that that's interesting is to consider that for ourselves What do we how do we came to the point to consider what we consider good good scientific? practice and one thing I always came through when thinking about that was the word of discipline and discipline is kind of interesting because this one had three meanings and When we look at at a university typically at the university researcher is not really the scientific practice of that research It doesn't really come from the university It typically comes from the discipline that research is involved in and what is considered good scientific practice in that discipline but discipline also kind of means to To have discipline in doing something to do something according to the rules Which also are set in a way by the discipline, but discipline also has a negative connotation Discipline also means to discipline someone So if you do not work according to what we consider good scientific practice was in a field Then the discipline can't work your field your community can discipline you by saying that isn't good scientific practice and So we we thought about business kind of goes back to like one of your slides about Do we address every single kind of field to who did we take with and I think it's a pivotal aspect to to not think about like research and oftentimes it's kind of like people oversimplify why scientists act the way they do and when we kind of incorporate why we think things are Should be done in a certain good scientific practice Then I think we come to a point was it's actually far more complicated than these very simple ideas of why people Practice science the way they do and that's I think where I pass over to you So Hey What what Sasha basically said is that good scientific practice is something that is negotiated within the scientific communities Or within the scientific disciplines and what we also think or what I kind of also think is that scientists Do not always do what's in the best interest for science. They do what they are disciplined to so this is one of the meanings that Sasha also that Sasha also Just mentioned and it also relates very much to what Martin just said before when it comes to Stigmarie So let me give you one example So there's this this one case and I think everyone knows about that at the global scientific output doubles every nine years But many peer-reviewed papers do not withstand replication so if we look at psychology for example one-third of the pay of the results Only can be replicated at the same time many peer-reviewed and papers do not get ever cited one So after five years for example About one-third of the publications from psychology do not get a citation at all and When researchers are asked if they want to share the data They never usually say we don't have the necessary tools They usually say and we don't want to give it away because we want to publish another paper That again, nobody will or very few people will read will read or am site So the common truth here is that and we publish more than we can read and review I think Martin also said that we should completely give away with publications I would say that we would do good enough if we would publish less and What I'm also trying to point out is that there are like a lot of these Idiocies in in academia. There's also for example the case of peer review There was like for example a few weeks ago. I was at the force 11 in Montreal And there was one guy presenting the results from a comparative study between the bio archive and the top journals from from biomedicine and what he basically pointed out is that the Quality between the peer reviewed and publications and top journals and biomedicine did not differ so much in quality Compared to those in the preprint Repository on archive, but nobody actually questions the institution of peer review or very few do or at least Often we try to to implement a technical equivalent of the peer review. We already know Also, if you if you think for example, then often interdisciplinary and collaboration How could for example to peer reviewers ever be able to review an interdisciplinary paper that has ideas from let's say Three four and five disciplines so that there needs to be something more and reactive when it comes to peer review as well I'm also talking about in a disciplinary Collaboration That could also like start again with these journalists or what do journalists basically do that organizations put out or institutions put out Our scholarly societies put out so that basically just limit They make intellectually intellectual boundaries so we can like we only stick to the people that we know We stick to the journals that we know and we do not actually Try to to publish something in a journal beyond our discipline So by just setting these and disciplinary boundaries, for example in the disciplinary and collaboration is Prevented and this is a decision by design Often and it's also an example for let's say Stability and also when we look for example at how public infrastructure is often Funded like it's also again going back to organize stability Like they get they have an idea for infrastructure project like in public publicly funded project They have an idea in 2013 you get the money in 2014 and then you follow work packages for the next three years and then at the end produce what you had in mind in 2013 so The idea or the concept that we like came up with or what we thought like it would relate to also because when we think about Scientific ethics and and good scientific practice like Merton also often talks about Organized skepticism so what you see here actually is a rather organized stability and it's especially True sometimes for academia where smart people act and collectively stupid Okay, we got it There's like so much cool up right so and then like open sign is it is it but we should like get it like somehow into the Direction of like is there is it useful that we talk blockchain in these field and like get this up moving and like not to go Into silos or in one cultures because these are all like legacy Things and problems and like some are specific to science world some are not specific here So is it is it is it like Should we like continue with that? How should we continue with that? Should we not continue with it, right? Yep, well, I mean yeah Yeah, no, no, it's like it's open, right? Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, everybody can participate. No, no, I mean we should we should like keep it. We should keep it specific Okay, like The little specific thing that we wanted to go into was actually that at fostering good scientific practice means Understanding the complexities of practice in each field and this was also something that I think you Am set in your in your talk. Well We had wonderful slides about three things that we suggest. Yeah. Yeah, sorry. Sorry. Yeah, really graphically very strong so So the first one we had like someone who was diving in the ocean and We basically said if you want to develop infrastructure for someone you just can't throw that infrastructure at them and Say those are smart people. They'll see that they'll use it You really have to understand what it is that drives these people what how they make the decision That they make because the reality is that no researcher wakes up and there's well If I only I had something to do today So they all are already busy and so changing practice means that there's always like an Opportunity cost in doing that. I think The second thing we had we called it the puts on a plus problem Everybody knows the puts on a plus. Yeah, 20s This used to be like the place to be in Berlin and like if you look if you watch Bobby Berlin is all like people Running around puts on plus and then after the the wall came down they rebuilt puts on a plus and they Didn't take into consideration that people actually want to use it They'll just ask cool architects to build Hybrids there and now nobody wants to be at put some plus only tourists hang around there But I like people that live in Berlin like they don't go to put some plus completely failed Infrastructure project and I think that happens if you if you have a great idea and say we built something shiny But you don't really build it with the community that's supposed to use it. Okay. Good So this is all too shiny what we have at the moment or Infrastructure projects have that problem just visions or like Well, it's no well, they actually built something at puts on a plus But it didn't build it with the people that it was for they basically had the idea of we'll show you what you need It's like these if you if you build it, they will come kind of attitude. We'll build something so great Everybody will like it you build it people. So well, that's yeah, really what we like. It's shiny But we kind of like yeah, so we cannot expect that the technology by itself will change Signs and stuff and but I know what I mean is you cannot develop a technology that people will use without really doing that With the people who are supposed to use it. Okay That's the third one the people that are supposed to use it are are in a decentralized academic system They basically live in little tribes. You can't say I talked to a couple of scientists. I know how science works Because yeah, okay Yeah, okay. Okay, okay, so Okay, let's just open it up Sorry, sorry, I didn't want to interrupt you I thought it was already open up Okay, yeah, well what I want to say I think it's about enabling people to actually do Science so instead of like all spending a lot of time on really stupid things that you know as you said like a lot of I mean there are smart people But then you force them to spend like a day or a few days formatting papers Like for particular journals and there's like so many steps where we waste our time But they're really that could be easily automated. So I think it's about Opening up time and space to do this creative work like what people really like to do instead of all of these Boring things that nobody really enjoys, but you have to because there are no legacy. Yeah So it's about enabling to do cool interesting and creative science. Yeah, okay To answer directly to that I feel that a lot of the discussions that we have actually are the opposite What we would like to measure more people have to track more things that they do now when I do a review Also have to put that into a system to get an additional token that I can buy something from so it's all like additional hassle for me Actually in that system and oftentimes I feel that yeah that the exact opposite is actually Yeah, it's actually happening I mean all this project like open science So it's like new tools If it's light share or something people don't upload the presentation right they keep it So don't copy my slides or something, you know creative comments took a long time until it took off right But it slowly we are getting there and just like this is a decentralized slide share will not Create any additional excitement to the average scientist. I completely agree with that So I think we should probably focus more on removing all the unnecessary clutter rather than adding more tools more like new different things and like Different technologies and approaches. We just need to clean up Like things that are really useless or they don't make any sense or but and I think there's like blockchain can do something because you don't have I mean like if people if you look at like where the blockchain is used in the outside Well, it creates a bulletproof something and it it's just an easy way to like Can be an easy way to uh to distribute shares to maintain shareholders. It's a very effective way You don't have to go you have to go you don't have to do with money transfer You are doing it on shame so you can like pay dividends easily to like for example the building right and blockchain can be a way to This to uh to break down the barriers and the and the and the media breaches right that you that you you mentioned Come and so yet we have to reformat that it then we Uh, especially if it comes to value in science like new research funding I mean how much effort it is for the grand submission things I mean, I mean, but we are not like getting rid of this review process But if you have new ways of like distributing maybe money invest early in ideas in ip easily We have like less media breaches Yeah, we don't have to go through iBan to like transfer some value So this could be a way to get rid of a lot of overhead Maybe yeah, just one single blockchain would be good. Yeah If you would like to have all the legal things work off because I feel like yeah that that the opposite is happening We have like I get constant like emails from I don't know orchid some things on my orchid. I need to Take care of it. I don't know put it there. I have to go through everything then Someone else emails me. We have that on our institute website. I need to update this So I feel like I I don't know I inherited 20 additional tamagotchis Yeah, yeah, yeah in the name of open science. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's right And then this other spamming. Yeah, so any comment contributions or Yeah There have been Lots of talk about like a scientific community But we all live in different countries with different jurisdictions like probably scientific process like if you are If you are computational chemists like would be the same like in australia and in china But when it comes to the funding model, how this money is processed is completely different So like access to knowledge. Yes, this has to be universal But how like whether There is incentive model Which will feed all and walk analogy But we can like this blockchain create a lot of different incentive models And research money distribution schemes easily like we have this monolithic system today Or like very few only very few and scientists adapt to it games a system Yeah, basically publish like behave like create artificial complexity Because they are incentivized in this way and we had this slide Right. So and if we if we create a lot of ways, it's like the google algorithm is not published If you don't know the system, you can't game it, right? So maybe then you just end up doing good science Yeah, I we martin and I we had this discussion earlier. I think you ran away now No, no, you silly A lot of a lot of discussions are kind of about if we could reinvent science today Yeah, it would look completely different. Good. I like this experiment Yeah, and I always thought well that wouldn't be possible because we always have this possibility but what if we Like just put an alternative Smaller thing next to it as an experiment and see how that would perform. Yeah, yeah, basically Take people who are willing to take the risk and say well, that's actually a better idea Give them their own little institute and let them just do Yeah, yeah, this will we'll see 10 years later if their careers are done. Cool. Yeah, this is like what we want to do, right? We like amend the system carefully carefully, we amend it like on the other side, but I think that's probably the It's probably one of the only ways to really have Otherwise, you will never have a drastic Flip. Yeah And in that way if you say well, that's the rules that we That we governed out a little new thing mine And that might be a possibility to completely start from scratch and not have this discussion about but we really Need all this old crap that we Yeah I mean the difference to earlier Open science approaches or web 2.0 science 2.0 revolution is that there was like well, you have to get the people there Right, why do people move to research get to be seen now? They maybe discuss there, right? Why do people like slides are very slowly, right? And we have like all these things but I think in the blockchain revolution and we are talking of years here now It's the first time that we actually have a chance to influence the money distribution and value flow It's not only like an New interface and this can be a driving factor. Imagine people get money. They will be there in a second, right? Give me this tool. I will install it. Okay. I will use whatever I blockchain you fire everything Okay, I'm not so sure that it actually come in growth But I think there is a there is a chance to like if you attach money to it to have an experiment of an alternative system Yeah, we think about the discussions We had I don't know like five six years ago to what science 2.0 You can't do like an alternative systems system where they do science 2.0 like that Yeah, I mean like how long did it take like the web 2.0 and science was 10 years more or less, right? We're talking 10 years and I blockchain in 10 years. Hmm. How will it look like? So five years, yeah, what's the percentage of of of science of public was funded with public money probably 80 percent Yeah, yeah, like I was speaking with ron and during the break like and On average if it takes we're talking about millions and it will take Like Years to fund. Yeah, I like how we're into this blockchain ecosystem money will come from Our academic institutions are not in the business of adapting Revolutionary and disruptive technologies Yeah, they like extremely conservative In the world Let's be realistic It's it's worth to look at how Opening science failed in the past, right? So, uh, we we mentioned martin mentioned in this talk the poly mass project block Which is also referred to and michael nielsen's reinventing discovery, which is a great example And I remember like 15 years ago or a little bit less We had this great optimism about blocks and about wikipedia because because it seemed like okay We we we have the infrastructure For doing research in a completely different way and in a way that that was true Yes, but why what happened instead and this is really the irony when when when I give workshops on scholarly Communication to phd students today and I ask them who in the room is running a block versus who in the room Is actively having a research gate profile Nearly nobody uses a block which gives you gives you a great amount of autonomy Yes, uh already But many many many people have a research gate profile and when you compare it research gate is like a bad copy of how The research system works. Yes, you you gather Totally meaningless points for for yeah, yeah, you know research like the impact factor system Yeah, this is interesting and and and what what is new and this was yeah Yeah, I just need to repeat what was already said is that we now Address so so this is what happened in the space of the web, which is the space of like Absolutely effortless Distributing information and making copies of things and what we have now is a revolution on the level of value transfer And having a decentralized permissionless protocols for that So now we can tackle the the economic level and the the the economic autonomy and the incentive systems, which is uh kind of promising, but we will be uh So we will look how this turns out right next wave so to say exactly. Yeah, good What what always fascinates me is the fact that the web was developed so research Can exchange information and everybody understood that except for the research Yeah, or Unbelievable, right? They turned their pdf pages online behind paywalls. Yeah. Yeah, it's very interesting. Yeah Okay He said then they said I mean this these have been problems that work that are with open signs web 2.0 address The world is visions right and if we didn't end up there, right? Like we had this we had this vision of like value transfer in web 2.0 2 It didn't work out. It didn't happen, right Yeah, and I think the important thing is then to look back and see what can we do differently this time? Yeah, right to the same issue Yeah, and like yeah, yeah, just like Yeah, I just had an idea about this internet. I just Recently stumbled upon this uh when when the first nodes were established You know between these two universities and and actually the the driving force apparently was that the scientists were really reluctant to share the information Even then when the when this started this experiment was done and here interestingly the only thing The only way it was working is actually what I think works sometimes really well in the US and much better than in in Europe and said that the funding agencies said like if you guys not Work together like you're not going to get these machines twice in this case the computing infrastructure We have to share it and we are not going to pay every university a computer Because it's too expensive and you have to share the resource So that might be an it's an idea of Uh, and that's actually what also the initiative of john is and Trontana is interesting right because in a way it should be really coming from the top Uh, sometimes as well that that we have to Have this open science movement in europe But but but this should then not necessarily be controlled by by entities that are Having such a strong financial interest and this is Again, yeah, anyways Yeah, okay Yeah, and I like the idea like philip in philip zander's talk. Okay, so like the funders like get to 30 percent overhead Right for administration and like how much time there is like I think they are like things that the european commission the grant money that is distributed It outweighs the effort to like why this grant application All right, I don't I can't cite this but it's like a lot right so people just like it is like it all went mad Right. Yeah, and you have increasing competition So it's not only for the people that actually won the grant but we had grant applications last year where we had a Like they funded 3% of the applications Even for the people that got the grant was a lot of work, but like 97% Wrote that entire thing and throw it away or like send it in next year again So I think that is the big the big bottleneck currently. Okay. Yeah And we have here. Yeah, just just wanted to to Put a question to the panel so Yeah, or to to to our big panel So what I'm asking myself. So we are now in the end of this first blockchain for for science conference I have two questions. Who are we are we more politicians or are we scientists? Are we just citizens? And independent of this question When we meet next year, what do we want to have achieved? So that's something I think we could speculate on for for the the end of the session Who are we? It's a good question Huh well In the last day Like I lost account of the number of projects which are trying to resolve the same issue Whether it is this or not like whether it's like peer review or something. So like it all Should make sense to get some kind of basic agreement on What kind of uh, I don't know like whether you join forces and what kind of governance mechanism and what kind of standards is going to be used How it's going like whether we are able to do it. I don't know during martin's workshop in the in the next couple of days Hopefully something some in some shape or So Like if we'll until next year have some kind of basic structure basic governance model or and who are we like anybody who like We should be looking forward and thinking about like What is like how algorithms are going to reuse this data the future it's like because Big companies and like I don't know if you've had about like the risk soft bank for example It's uh investing in all kind of algorithms and they invest in money into Into like which they get from Saudi sovereign fund their own uber bnb and everything else everything now is an algorithm basic plan. You just feed data into it Whether you run a shop or model agency. It's the same It's it's database Okay, um, so I have a question for you guys. It's a hypothetical situation. Um, it's about how you would threat model against uh against this So let's say that you have a you have a You know, you're a token system whatever whatever whatever application it is And you have a handful of exchanges that have your token available You charge a certain Specific price for a certain type of thing Let's say the price moves, you know the price moves around and you adjust it to you know to fit that You know fiat So let's say that somebody decides That like let's say let's say they're only let's say they're You know 10 10 million tokens floating around on all of the markets and someone decides to to Buy all the tokens How are you uh, so Now there are no more tokens available and you have your application that you just built. How are you going to make that token system work? Uh Isn't that base specific question? Yeah, no, that's a no. How are you going to threat model against that? Basically said somebody just buys all token No, because no, there will be no more tokens somebody basically bought all the tokens off of the exchanges There are no more left on the exchanges And then you're rich. What's that and this moment you are rich and fine and you have your design No, I'm no I'm asking like how like if you if you've built a system How do you how do you defend against that? How do you threat model against it? I said somebody just buy is it like just get all the rights like funds your science project perfectly No, no, no, okay here. I'll state it again because this is this is this is going to come up Okay, so somebody just like Monopolizes something or this you have a system, right? You've released all the tokens on the markets um, the your your system relies on these tokens um For functionality Somebody decides to buy all of the tokens and now Your system won't work. So how do you defend against that? Maybe if you generalize this question like how do you prevent like decentralized system to be centralized again, right? like This threat monopolize basically no this specific. No, I'm asking specifically. How do you threat model against? Okay, you love what you're yeah, so this is I think on the one level This is a general crypto economics question and not so specific for our field of application But on the other hand, I would like to point you to the work of uh, alex Score and uh, the dape people maybe other people apply this as well. They have this concept of a secondary Market for a token so that you have an internal regulation that makes use of a utility token Was in a certain system which has incentives and everything you got And then you have a secondary market where you can buy Stakes in that whole system where you can end up being the only owner of this System and still you have no means to to influence what the scientists were doing So I don't know if this addresses your concerns, but Also, I just wanted to say yesterday. We we looked at space the central. I don't know if Yeah, did you want to say because aragon came to mind and you're using that right? Yeah, I mean, I guess one thing I wanted to say is if you're creating a network like this You're not selling the entire token supply. The purpose is to actually reserve a large percentage as rewards in the ecosystem So that's one reason it's like you do whatever an ic or whatever To raise some funds to start to like, you know bootstrap the initial team to develop the technology But then you have like a large percentage of it That's reserved for you know the intellectual contributors the incentives to you know create the network and Like you could think of that as like knowledge mining just like bitcoin or ethereum It's like the it's not like the entire token supply is on the market the day that Bitcoin You know like the mining started to begin. It's like it's maintained because these rewards are available So if you think of these knowledge, you know collective intelligence ecosystem, it has those same, you know mechanics, so And I mean the same thing as far as like buying 100 percent of the token supply We haven't really seen that happen unless it's like a very small cap token. It's like that can happen for any Token it doesn't matter whether it's like science or not. So But it's I don't think it's very easy and there will never be a hundred percent of your supply on the market One of the reasons why I bring that up is that I mean if we think about the threat that was there was made to To pick okay This is like a great discussion and we should have the crypto economy discussion And I'm very sorry that we didn't do it. We do an own conference on that But as as you are already deep in this and that's why I think you like blockchain for science in the future Okay, cool. Yeah, there's no way around it. Okay, there is Yeah, yeah Yeah, yeah, for example, yeah Yeah, something like this and who we are. Okay. Yeah Try to get an ICO and buy Lamborghinis for Initial sticker offering. Okay, so Okay, I do our ICO Okay, I actually wanted to go back exactly to the same point. So I'm glad we were aligned Um, immediately after one of you asked that question I had three uh, three things came to my mind and it's actually to everybody Who in here has a bit of a technical knowledge about blockchain? Like 10 people who wrote a smart contract ever 20 20 people Okay, when we discuss this next year, we need to make sure that everybody in the room has a good understanding of how blockchain technically works Okay, we can't evaluate We can't we can't evaluate if it makes sense for science if we don't have that knowledge at hand So I think that would be goal number one that I would suggest Um, well second of all, we should be like in in terms of numbers There should be more of us we need to find a way to convince researchers to somehow Come on board, but that's not just researchers. Everybody is related to the research infrastructure And that means engaging even publishers Who were heavily criticized During this conference, but no, no, no, they weren't so badly, right? We did a good job in not like we said that they are part of the ecosystem, right? And we are all in the same boat, right? We are not we are not fighting against the publishers I don't like I don't want to say that way. I didn't say that That also means they are librarians anybody basically who's in their infrastructure, right? We should have More people on board from very different universities. Yeah, this is a good point. Yeah, and I actually tried it Yeah, it was not like people. Okay. I actually called some high level people and talked to the others and Well, it is like blockchain is all a hype. We don't have a trust problem with publishers Uh, it's not scalability scalable, you know, they have like We are already working on it in 30 years And uh, this is nothing new. Okay. So this was the answers but others are Others are very happy and engaging and want to come and couldn't make it. I'm not saying any names Okay, but I completely agree with it and we like continue with this effort. Yeah You can try the top down or like drop ambassadors, you know in different countries that have already connections to those kinds of Institutions and try that So I guess like going back to who are we I think it's like everyone who has some kind of interest in research Which is again going funders researchers and publishers and I think again, there needs to be communication and there's always It from at least from my perspective like all these like it's a little bit granular, right? So funders are having their own problems and then researchers are having like a Bunch of problems kind of linked to everyone else's essentially and everyone is trying to change Uh system from uh from their own perspective, right? Everyone but everyone has also different ideas where the biggest pain points are so again opening up a conversation would be really good and bringing more people in and But we also need to educate people and like increase the awareness that there are things that are happening changing and I think It's easy to kind of get drowned in the open science bubble where where everyone around you is talking about open science But actually when you go back to the university people don't know that osf exists like even for web 2.0 solution exists. They just don't know so speaking about web 3.0 Solutions like it's like science fiction almost and then again People don't know what blockchain is and you don't need to write a smart contract to kind of but you need to at least understand the concept because that's what the exciting part of blockchain is like it Opens up a different way of thinking so it's not about just replacing Current institutions or current models of funding is just it's actually trying to build something new And what I think we should aim for next year is to create this Sandbox and invite every stakeholder and publisher and fund funders and just create this game System and where we can try these new things because essentially nobody really knows what they're doing I think that's why I think we should just admit that we don't really know how to fix this thing like We just don't know but we need to try and like a lot of things will fail But some things will come up and say like oh look this is actually really useful It works and we should keep it But we need to create this safe environment for trying testing blowing things up And we need to admit this that this is what it is that it's not a real solution. It's just trying So I think that's what we should aim for next year Just to refer to you because I had Yeah, I um, so I agree perfectly with you in terms of education about the fact that we need to know At least the concept I think we really have to go a little bit deeper than the concept because there are a lot of people who Know the concept but you really need to know a little bit more in a technical level What is possible what not in order to answer the question that was posted So I don't mean like on the level of a programmer necessarily But it to argue that we need blockchain specifically and the blockchain is the right answer to solve problems like we need to Have a clear understanding of the shortcomings like how it works to know what it can do or what it cannot write And to you mentioned also the experimentation that was my third point because I said initially I had three points So that we need to control the experiment. So actually very maybe small projects and some approach it like researchers Which a lot of us are right. So try to Find a way to quantify how much of a difference this actually makes I think there will be a goal that we should think about it. Yeah What I personally would like to to ask all of you for next year is to bring your negative Experiences as well. So all the faults all the the errors that we can learn from those what did not work and Yeah, speculate on what could be the reason why it did not work. So if we are experimenting commenting to your Last comment then it would be extremely useful Maybe to write provide a platform to share experiences to share the best practices The worst practices and to learn from all of these The other thing if we are talking about Fixing science which is broken. There are other Aspects as well, which were not mentioned during this conference Like the trust issue what is generally spoken that the public does not trust science There are already several initiatives, which could be nicely put into blockchain Like patients voting for what kind of diseases should be granted to to investigate and find medicines Involving science journalism or figuring out how science could be translated to the public and so on and so on So it would be nice to yeah spread out To stakeholders who are not here today I would like to add to the conversation about building The sandbox and allowing people to learn how to get this into their own hands And and I agree that this does not necessarily entail Learning to program something or so. We have already things like aragon for instance. This is kind of a graphical user interface for building your own DAO or something and and What what I would like to see is having such a sandbox and and research about what is happening The failures the problems with that sandbox, but to do this in For a certain discipline for young researchers who would like to do this from a certain discipline With real money from a real funding agency So I would like to see one or two funding agency being courageous and saying, okay We pour really a certain amount of money into the system now build your DAO and Let's see what happens, right? So so that we see that this is really serious and possible if it is possible I have a comment. Um, I think that yeah, what I've observed In this conference is yeah, a lot of people are proposing similar platforms But they have different tokens and it was like, how do we break out of these silos? if a lot of them are ethereum based thinking about actual like kind of ethereum standards that can allow research to Interoperate between the platforms can be good Or also for the different groups choosing a specialization of scientific research to build the community around that research And then collaborating as an alliance on the actual, you know Plumbing like the infrastructure because I think that if we really want network effects We have to kind of maybe align towards the type of science or research we're more interested in And you know leave the product and the smart contracts and all that to people that have More expertise in that realm and you build this alliance So then you can actually grow the network effects of having a global scientific community Like someone said where a lot of us might be based in like different regions different countries as well So if you're like strategize with the universities in the regions build this common infrastructure and you know focus on that then I mean, I think The problem is like people think about these token models because they're like, oh, okay. I can get funded and work on this job You know have us funded as my full-time job So there's that competitive aspect that people think that they need to do it themselves Because it can at least guarantee them and their groups a job And so that's like what we face as a community. It's kind of like the forces of capitalism that are Standing in the way of us like truly collaborating in ways So I think that that's the main thing that we need to overcome because I think that's the greatest barrier towards Collaborating as early stage like bootstrapped companies go It's just a comment Yes, I think that's a super important issue that you raised there. I mean all of these efforts including Doing research on what happens with with blockchain and science and having nice sandbox games and so Will Still it will be necessary to educate people and train them on open science Yes, because this um like like being convinced about okay My career as a young career researcher depends on some journal brand name or so this does not go away By the way of some technical whatever alternative Right as long as you feel like okay, I will be just judge based on that journal brand name Or so you will behave like that. So Yeah Um, sorry So we were talking about like what we want to see for next year and next year I would like to see more people from Developing countries to the global south so So I went to a talk A few months ago by a lawyer in in australia and um, she made a really I think insightful point which was that You know when we're thinking about blockchain in countries like australia germany usa We're thinking about it as an alternative to Institutions that we already have that we kind of trust we may think that blockchain does things better or more efficiently or You know more democratically, but it's trying to replace institutions that Or or complement institutions that already exist when we're thinking about other countries Like where they don't have those institutions That's where potentially blockchain can be transformational, which is why for example, you know when we look at the Our like frankle community, um, we look at you know the people on our telegram group A lot of them from nigeria And I'm not sure you know how universal that is across other other projects But you know as soon as you mention nigeria everyone kind of rolls their eyes, right? But there's a reason for that and and it's because crypto is huge in in nigeria because From you know from from my understanding from what we've been with the feedback we've been getting is that they you know, they don't have these trusted institutions for for Like banks and so on so You know if we're thinking about this for science as well, then maybe you know the transformational effect Of blockchain for science will not be felt in countries like germany and australia. It will be in nigeria and india and philippines and so on and you know where we've got So it's a big problems Yes, they don't have the legacy structures that prevents them from adopting the innovation or the new stuff, right? And they stay all like in germany. We don't be as radiologists don't send Images through the internet right in brazil they do right So it is because we have our legacy institutes that have no interest in like creating these new ways and these developing countries can skip this step Yeah, like island is very good at digitization because they could rebuild their public administration and we still have to go like to the Things here all the time right for job I need your badge I just want to give you a like Okay Linking to that comment. I would like to get back to a question. You thank you raised like 15 minutes ago And which goes on the global level So where will blockchain be in the in the next five years in the next 10 years? We heard a lot about Yeah possibilities for changing science. Maybe with this technology We heard a lot about challenges like interoperability and Scalability, but where could it be taking into account that a lot of countries suffering From really like threats Which we don't even can imagine in like developed western countries with this well functioning institutions in a way like Sure, there's some diminishing trust in media and politics Surely i'm observable, but yeah, where where could block blockchain be on a global level within the next 10 years for example It depends on the quantum computing right On the quantum computing in the state of it Ah, yeah, okay, we didn't have the quantum computing question the whole conference. Wow Now you know you like oh Okay, good Energy consumption was not a topic. There's a hot topic all the time usually. Yeah, okay quantum computing is good to okay We had it. Yeah cool, so we Okay, I know what what we don't want to have for sure It's like under the under the label of decentralization and blockchain to have a blockchain if I anything that it's completely Centralized right and we prevent this from happening right So if they say they like we have this new blockchain decentralized research publisher or social network or whatever And it's in if they are like five nodes And there's like a governance structure that consists of one person and they call it blockchain We will like void against that. Okay. This is like one thing we are going to do. Okay. It's a minimal Minimal thing. Okay, we all agree on that And everything it's it'll be a rather destructive year. Yeah. Yeah, we will be so because There are some projects that go in this direction. Yeah, and oh we have blockchain and there are others out and We don't name them. Okay, so this is like what we agree on the minimal level Right and then and we don't want to create a structure that is self maintaining And like just pays business class tickets to for people to fly somewhere and has a lot of administration overhead Okay, we are like we don't build that right So I put on the web page that if we build a structure and we archive the goals The the society or thing or company or will disappear Okay Because then we will do work on something else. Okay, so these are like divisions, okay And any any comments or important steps or yeah, okay Yeah, and like really real ones and not ones that are created to have a real user story Yeah, yeah, okay. We don't we don't come up with fake stories. Okay. Let's just like wait two or three more years If we have to I will I will never invite a researcher and he said like oh, I'm doing all blockchainified now Yeah, and we will like promote him and tell the story and in reality. He doesn't even understand what the wallet is Okay, we are not doing this. Okay. Okay. So yeah You mentioned it would be great if we could Convinced funding organizations to contribute financially to some research projects So I think we have enough of a critical mass to Prepare a pretty kick ass research proposal. Why don't we do that? Why don't we? I think the research proposal I thought so often about this But I'm not going to answer this question of the reviewers if there's an agency that wants to fund us That's okay. If somebody wants to write research proposal. That's okay I bought so many research proposal and got so many stupid things back. I'm not going to do that Yeah, okay, seriously If they if they come back it doesn't scale blockchain is just a hype, you know I don't want to read these answers after I spent three weeks of writing this proposal If somebody wants to do that go ahead Yeah I I write I write half a page proposal Yeah, and that should be enough. Yeah, because every project can be explained in half a half a page Yeah, I have everything else is like overhead legacy, right There is a price from the european union, right? It's called blockchain for social good. This is a surprise, but I'm not yeah I mean, I see your point. It's a lot of work I'm not pointing fingers Very very serious answer takes a lead I I would definitely Contribute in serious ways, but but somebody has to take the lead you have this initiative I think it would be great and this is the right funding line or probably and let's try this sure. Yeah. Yeah I thought about writing there, but then and then I had like these comments back and stuff So we just like do this and we create some knowledge movement and maybe somebody will support us Maybe others not the projects. Maybe they can an international society of blockchain for science We actually have one already and there's like it's a the legal structure is like it's a One-click org, right? So it's probably a burglary is right We can expand that but it also creates a lot of overhead already, right And I don't want to sit down and write standards Right that are like just like maybe rappers for like what's necessary in blockchain world And we are already come up with a lot of things that we need to work on and we discuss these things here So so there's no point in like writing more documents, right? And we have live streams and this discussions I mean we can do the cargo cult of like writing a grant application 30 pages and Have nice powerpoint diagrams and everything. It's uh, it's a proxy, right? It's yeah Yeah, but then there will be the question like what's the problem that you are solving, right? And this is like the question is there a problem is blockchain the rate method and then I will have I don't see that this will go through as a research project And I'm fed up with this proxy measurements We will like have this thing happening as soon as there's money like we have the molecule project for example that is like Ready at like not 10 years from now, right that it can and if these things work out And we already had like billers blockchain like open science tools for example that wants a poster price It's already working, right? You can like create the immutable timestamp of something, right? So what what kind of research do we need to do anymore? I don't And you want to measure it how Yeah, yeah, but how do we measure this if we if we fix So the problem with a lot of things and grant application is that they want to have something measurable at the end and Like in economics it like it has shown that you can well We'll like have something that we know if we have to like address this measurement Then we'll do it in this way that the outcome will be so it's positive But it's a it's a hard and it's a very hard thing to measure orchid is six years old We have five five million people And that value proposition is still a hard for us to measure. It's getting easier. Yeah, but um Yeah, I'm personally I'm done with these stupid measurements. Yeah, you people can do that all the time I mean take that but yeah, seriously, it's not it's so this is not real world So what we are discussing is that this uh reward system of scientists Which is based on impact factor is not the correct one And if you want to disrupt it then we can measure it We can define something completely new and that could be one of the research proposals I mean But with many things you just have to think and be like smart and see that this is a way that it's good And you just do it right? Yeah, we can measure it. So with social scientific methods, you can measure a lot of things You can you have to define concrete concepts Which are actually measurable and then it's not only impact factor No, no, no, but I don't want to have any metrics and stuff, right? No, no, no, no just how blockchain For science is working. Okay. Yeah, okay Yeah, some of you can do that, right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay, cool We want to be okay. So I want to close this is so we have the minimal minimum. Oh, sorry. Sorry. Sorry. Yeah, sorry There's been tremendous Tremendous strides since last year's meeting Next year's meeting Virtually everyone in attendance Will have used will have developed used and had some experience with these implementations Yeah, could okay and what I what I would suggest the way of thinking about structuring the segments Is the three the three primary comments that have come from from this group discussion are Let's see the applications. Let's have every application develop that's developed have an opportunity to see it Let's have some feedback on what the user experience has been what the learnings have been from the developers And let's combine that with what the research tells us about this collection of that type of application That use case or use cases as they cluster together. I think there's tremendous learnings that could come from that And it's a mix of both slideware research Tangible or intangible very difficult to get the data and so forth But there are some that that want to do the research, but we also want to see the applications themselves in real life Cool Yeah, I'm okay with that as a state. It's a last statement. Somebody wants to like give you a more last statement or Okay, so we close it here. Okay Good. So thank you very much And I thank you a lot now as your organizer again And I think it was I had a lot of fun. It was very stressful. I had a lot of help And I yeah, no, no, and I'm off the hook now until tomorrow Martin well he does this and I'm happy now and there will be like After hour is at the bar at the hotel or restaurant if you want to meet there, right? We don't if you want if you want to have another one as a meeting spot Just let me know we can announce it here now And I wish you safe travels and thanks again for everything and this was exciting today's and the feedback You can send all kind of feedback. Please good and bad or maybe bad just for my email and and okay, and Yeah, thank you very much for everything. Yeah Okay, thank you to the tears that helped me with the presentations that were awesome And they are like really good really good at it and they work in blockchain space and at bundles block and you talk to them Okay, and the sci-fi academy live streaming team