 Bonjour à tous, tous. My name is Sandy Bear, and I'm here with What's Going On, which is a citizen journalist program, talking about the news and the current events of the day. And we are honored this morning to have two guests from the Democratic Republic of Congo. One is Belfi Matulongo, who is a judge and a lawyer from the Democratic Republic of Congo, who is part of the judicial system in Congo. And the second person is Mr. Taty Miesi, who is a political leader and a lawyer also from Congo. And we're very honored to have these people with our studio to comment and to talk about the Democratic Republic of Congo, which is a country that is not very well understood in the United States. It's a country that has been involved in a lot of struggles about war, about decolonization, and is emerging as a leading country on the continent of Africa. And we're hoping this morning to talk a little bit about that kind of rising star of Africa, we hope, correct? And with us also is Jules Vechi, who is a doctor in our community also from Congo. But he's also a disc jockey, where he plays a program on the radiator, our local radio station every week. Is that right, Jules? Okay, great. So we are also joined by Eric Anyero from the Côte d'Ivoire in Africa, who will act as our translator, I hope. Right? All right, no problem. Bienvenue, Madame la juge, cher frère, bienvenue en tout cas, merci très heureux de vous avoir sur ce plateau. We are very happy to have you visiting from Congo. So, le Congo a été toujours montré au public américain comme une terre de problèmes, de la guerre, des problèmes des colonisations, le chaos. Alors que nous nous rendons compte que le Congo est en train de retrouver sa trajectoire vers un développement harmonieux, nous nous rendons compte que les choses commencent à bouger et nous espérons donc avoir à parler aujourd'hui d'une star montante en Afrique. Bienvenue donc, Cindy le disait tout à l'heure, nous sommes donc avec le docteur Weichi aussi avec qui nous passons. Any question, Cindy? Yes, I would like to ask Miss Matulongo about the judicial system in Congo. The United States does perceive Congo to be a country of chaos, and yet she is here to tell us today that it is not and that it is organizing itself along the same kind of lines as the United States. So I wanted to ask the judge about the separation of powers within Congo and does it exist between the judicial system, the executive and the legislative branches? Can you please tell us a little bit about the judicial system? Yes, with you. Yes, of course. It is true that the image that Congo or Africa in general gives outside is an image of chaos, as if everything did not work. Yet it is not like this because we are an example. There is an advocate on my side, and I am judge for the fact that the judicial system is organized. It is organized by basic texts. There are court courses, there are parks, there is the independence of justice as everywhere else. Although it is not as perfect as all justice, nevertheless, justice in Congo is organized. It is organized. There you go. Could I ask, could that be translated in English? Yes, I mean, she is literally saying what you said, even if the image that they have from Congo here is that of chaos, that of war, there is a justice system that is there, there are tribunals, there are courts, and then the justice system and the executive branch and the other branches are everywhere in the world. Not everywhere in the world, it is special. This is very special to have an independent judiciary. It is very special. Yes, so that justice system is trying to stay independent and then it is something that is in progress. Here we go. The legal system in Congo and the stereotypical copies of the Roman-Germanic system, especially the systems applied in France and in Belgium. The system from Congo is copied on what is practiced in France and Belgium. It is the Roman-German system. Roman law? Yes, in Germany. Why Germany? Is there a tie between Congo and Germany? Is that correct? No, it is like a school of law or a law of philosophy that is linked to the Roman-Germanic. It was a block, I mean, on Sunday we will have the time to cut it. It is one of the world's systems. There are the Anglo-Saxon blocks, there are the Roman-Germanic blocks. So there are two blocks, like when it comes to judiciary systems. The one from the Roman-Germanic, which is Romans and German, and then the Anglo-Saxon. So that of Congo is copied on the one from the Roman-Germanic system. Right, right. So that means in the United States, the separation of powers is very important because it denies anyone having absolute power. So the separation of powers is very important. And I am guessing, or I'm asking, that's true in Congo as well. Voilà. Donc je voulais justement parler de séparation parce que les systèmes étatiques maintenant du Congo sont caractérisés par trois pouvoirs. Il y a les pouvoirs exécutifs, il y a les pouvoirs législatifs, il y a les pouvoirs judiciers. Les pouvoirs exécutifs, c'est celui-là qui met en place des programmes d'action et qui suit l'exécution. Les pouvoirs législatifs, c'est celui qui les fait, qui votent les lois, qui préparent et tout qu'on sort, qui donnent des lignes, des conduites dans tous les sectaires du pays. Et à les pouvoirs judiciers, qui a principalement la mission des contrôles, des comportements. Alors tous ces trois pouvoirs sont séparés. Alors les pouvoirs judiciers, lui aussi, est séparé en son sein. Il y a des juridictions d'ordre civil et il y a des juridictions spécialisées. Dans les juridictions spécialisées, il y a tout au sommet la Cour des cassations à côté duquel il y a les parquets générales près la Cour des cassations. Il y a les conseils d'État qui y a à son côté aussi les parquets générales près les conseils d'État. Et puis... We maybe should translate it. So as Congo is divided in three branches, judiciary, legislative and executive. So even within the judiciary system, there are also branches, sub-branches. La Cour des cassations, c'est le sommet. Le sommet with the highest court, which is called the Supreme Court. C'est la Cour du Supreme Court. Il y a la Cour des cassations au sommet. Il y a la Cour des cassations qui gèrent des litiges purement d'ordre juridictionnel normal. Et puis il y a les conseils d'État qui gèrent de tout ce qui est administratif. So even you know, there's a sub-branches that deal with common cases. And then you have some... Like small claims card. No, no, no, but like any, any, any, any. And then you have other sub-branches that are only dedicated to administratives. Right, same here, yes. Comme il y a aussi la Cour constitutionnelle qui gère de tout les litiges liés à l'interprétation de la constitution. So constitutional law also is dealt with with what they call la Cour constitutionnelle. Right, okay, that's right. The constitutional court, that interests me greatly. So unlike many other countries in the world, there is a written constitution in the Democratic Republic of Congo. Is that correct? La Cour constitutionnelle intéresse, parce qu'elle s'intéresse donc aux constitutions dans les pays. Est-ce que le Congo a une constitution écrite comme les États-Unis? Comme les États-Unis, car ce n'est pas de France. Et la France, monsieur. Mais comme ce n'est pas le cas dans tous les pays du monde. Est-ce que le Congo a une constitution écrite? Mais affirmatif. Les systèmes juridiques congolais sont basés sur l'écrit. Tous les textes sont écrits. Effectivement, il y a des justes écoutimes qui viennent aussi en appui, mais à condition que ces justes écoutimes ne soient pas contraires aux droits écrits. Go ahead. So yeah, they have a constitution written constitution like here in the US. All matters are dealt with according to the constitution. But sometimes uses and customs, that's how you say it. Are taken in consideration as long as they're not competing against the constitution. Right, well that's also true in the United States. I think that's very, very important too. And I thank you for bringing that up because there are many countries in the world, including England, that do not have a written constitution. The United States has a written constitution against which all other law is measured. And so I believe that that's very important for everyone to know that countries, emerging countries like Congo have written constitutions. It's important for the Americans and for the public to know that in Congo, there is a constitution written contrary to the Great Britain, which does not have a written constitution. So the constitution is really the base of all justice and the constitution remains the compass. Yes. The constitution. OK, I would like to ask the judge if what kind of cases that you see. OK. He's finishing and then you've got to go. Oh, OK, yes, I'm sorry. OK. So next to civil order jurisdictions, there are also specialized jurisdictions that are part of the military courts. There are children's courts, there are commercial courts, and there are working courts. So specialized courts like that of kids, I mean, juvenile, for business, I mean work, work with the work. Yes, so prudence, prudence of work, like which deals with cases related to work. A corporate compensation. Yes, and then what other. There are courts, military courts, there are children's courts, the work courts and the commercial courts. To be a business. So all these structures, there are penetrations from the functional and structural point of view. What I just mentioned, it's a lot more at the level of the summit and that there is a representation at the central level of Kinshasa, which is the capital. So in each province, now there is a court of appeal and a general hearing, as well as courts of great instances, courts of peace. And so Madam, the judge and judge the court of great instances. Yes, so all these courts are also because Congo is a federal system, federal system of Congo. Yes, not in a pronounced way, but like there are different provinces. Yes, so in each province, you know, you have courts. It's not federalism, but decentralization. It's like decentralizing. So separation of powers, powers and authorities at the level of the central structure have delegated a part of the power to certain provincial authorities. So decentralization. So we have also delegated powers from, you know. So let's go back to your question. My question is to the judge, what kind of cases does she see? What type of cases do you see on which you intervened? No, we say that we have all the penalties and the civilians. So we intervene in all cases, it depends on the matter. As a judge of great instances, we have, in addition to the reduction of specialised cases, as Maître just said, of the causes that concern children, of work and everything, all that remains is there, our examinations are there. As a judge of great instances. Outside, you know, the specialised cases like children, that is there with the children's tribunal, and then the court for workers, you know, and other cases, all other cases, you know, criminal or civil cases, I think would be... The first instance, what would be their... I try to find the equivalent, this is a superior court, right? The first instance, so it's the pay tribunal. The pay, so the first reduction, the smallest reduction that could exist in the end of the century. The pay tribunal, and who is charged, as Ma'am, the judge has said, of the receipts of civil orders and also of criminal orders. In civil orders, I don't have any precisions, there is a threshold, of the value of the contestations and the complaints, and beyond these thresholds, the court must go to the higher jurisdiction, which is the court of the great instances. But in a criminal case, it is the court that receives courtesies whose maximum penalty is not more than five years of imprisonment. So depending on, you know, the seriousness of the case, you go from... Right. The first instance, the first instance is like the lowest court, you know, which would be here, you know... Small claim. Small claim. And then you move to the second instance, which is, you know, higher, you know... Superior. Superior court, yes. And then to the Supreme Court. After you, it's... The Court of Appeals. The Court of Appeals is the Supreme Court, yeah. It's the Court of Appeals. The Court of Appeals is the Supreme Court, yeah. And then after, you know, the Supreme Court, you have like... I mean, because here it's Supreme Court. If you feel like the Supreme Court, your case is... Over. Over. But there, there's another, you know, there's another court, which is the Court of Appeals. Which can break the decision of the court. Yes, yes. No, no, no, no, no. Another time, it's just the denomination that has changed. The Court of Appeals. The Supreme Court, which has changed and has become the Court of Appeals, in fact, you know. It's just the denomination that has changed. Yes, yes, yes. Indeed, as Madam said, the Supreme Court of Appeals has been broken down in three. In three. The Supreme Court was divided in three. That's what happened, because there was the Supreme Court with sections inside. The administrative section, the constitutional interpretation section and all that. But now, the Supreme Court of Appeals has been broken down in court of appeals, advice, and court of constitution. Okay, so, yeah, it's still the Supreme Court, but the Supreme Court was divided in three. One that will only deal with constitutional matters. One that will deal with, you know, other, so there's the administrative court. Yes. The court of appeals. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. All right, you Madam Judge, I also deal with the incarceration of women, right, in Congo. So I'd like you to talk about that. Are there a lot of women who are in jail in Congo? I don't know, I don't know. So Cindy asks, if you have to work on women's imprisonment, what is the importance of this phenomenon there, and what are your challenges and circumstances? Yes, yes, as much as men, we also have cases where women have been, like, in the end of the law, there are also a lot of women. So like in prison, it's the biggest prison in Kinshasa, there are at least 350 women who are in prison. Unfortunately, these women are in prison for, as I said before, for women's imprisonment. So false instructions, false information, they are there in prison for the fact that it could be possible to pay no amount of everything, but it's found there. Because they don't have the instructions, they don't know how to defend their rights, they don't know how to save time, like in the case of rape. A lot of women are raped, but even the family asks you not to cry out loud. She deals with women, and most of the time, as you know, women go to jail for very little things that could be resolved. Come, Lézé, how's you knee? Like in the U.S. Congress. Same thing. So most of these women are not literally, they also are in the patriarchal society where they don't have much to say, and especially when it comes to rape cases. Right, go ahead. There are reports in the United States always about rape in Congo. Is that, and as far as I knew, it was reported mainly during war. Is there a lot of rape in Congo now? And what happens as a result of that? The journalists, the media, have painted Congo as a land where there was a lot of rape during the war. Is it a phenomenon that continues? What is the situation on this subject? Was it during the war? And now, what is it done to be able to... Yes, what happens from the media point of view is quite complex. Quite complex because of the political situation of Congo, which is also complex. And this situation is complex because of the strategic character of the position of the Democratic Republic of Congo through these relations with the other international partners. So it's said that this question is very complex because you have to take it... Right, I got it. You have to look at it like amid a particular position of Congo with regard to the other partners like the international world. So Congo is... The political situation is very complex over there. So this is a very important subject because in the United States, it is presented as if Congo is a lawless country around that question. So it's important for our audience to know that there are steps being taken to protect women against these crimes. And I want to really make that clear. This question for Cindy is very important because people have been... There have been a lot of propaganda, like what, it was out of control, it was something. Today, we have the opportunity to really say to the world that the image we present may not be what we think, but we have to put it in a context and that there are things that can be done. That's what it was. And I wanted to get there by saying that there is also a complex war that is made in the Democratic Republic of Congo. This war is political. This war is economic. And even from the point of view of the media. Communication. So there are also manipulations behind it and counter-truths behind everything that is said about the Democratic Republic of Congo. There is a myth. There are views about that. So there is falsehood and there is truth. So yeah, we have to understand that Congo is like the target of a war, a competition war. Economic war, communications war, political war. So there's a lot of propaganda about Congo against Congo or some might be true, but not everything that is presented is true. Okay, that's a very important point, actually. And of course, rape is also a very complex crime here as well. It's a very serious crime, but in every society, I think it raises very complex problems. She agrees with the fact that the question is complex from the point of view of her political, economic and others. Even the question of rape itself is a complex question that is not even to be learned here in the United States with tweezers, because there are a lot of... Considerations. There are a lot of considerations, so we continue. Yes, indeed, if we have to define the specific cases of rape, there are a lot of legislation. The penal code itself has been modified. There was the insertion of crimes and specific definitions on rape. There are cases of rape that are as extended as possible. The sanctions are very heavy, and even... There are repressions of the kind of community. So the question has been... It's a question that is really taken into consideration. And there are the legislators who work, there are a lot of structures put in place around the issues of rape. It's been addressed by the country, but not only the judiciary, I mean the courts have been working on it. I mean, sanctions have been very tough. And then... But also there is community engagement. There are different organizations. Different organizations that are working on it. So I think at the end, she has to talk about her own organization. Yes, that's what I wanted to... Women's in jail. So she's doing a great job. She's a leader. So... Yes. You were going to talk about the organization. This is... Right. Go ahead. I wanted to talk about rape. It's true that rape is a flow that we find everywhere, but the rape of the Congo has a particular character because it's used as a weapon of war. So the opponents, when they come, not only they fight, but rape for them is a weapon of war. That's why, at a certain point, there are organizations that have sent judges and magistrates, who have come from Kinshasa, for the inside, for the east of the country, to go and take real action, but it's only rape. Because the rape that is common in the east of the country, it's not ordinary rape, if we can say so. We have also to understand that, you know, it's highly... It's like a war. Exactly. And then most of the cases that were... that were reported are taking place in the context of war and by being used, where rape is being used as a weapon of war. The weapon of war, right. Come to Le Monde. It's everywhere rape is a tool of war, not just in Africa. Not just in Africa. Right. It's also very important to remember that. That's very important to remember that. Yeah, right. At this higher position to explain to our audience that, you know, it's so easy to, you know, ah, it's like it's a country that is, you know, only about rape, but it's a context of war. Right. So even the government sent judges and lawyers in these regions to really probe and really understand what was going on over there. Right. Okay, before we were almost out of time and I did want to judge to talk about her special work with her organization, because it's very similar to an organization that we have in this country and state called Free Her Vermont, which is especially devoted to women in prison. So I really want to end with the judges' organization and what she is doing. We have unfortunately not enough time today and to explain the question of justice that would take us practically a day, but we would like to limit ourselves to this concrete case, your action in prison, the action that you have with women in prison, because it's an action that is similar to that of a group called Free Her, free there. Okay. Can you tell us a little bit about your action? Yes, yes, our organization, if I can say it, was born in 2019. The organization was born in 2019. 2019, so it was born from a constant, we noticed that first of all the health conditions, the conditions in which women live in our prisons, no, in this world, everyone, in particular the women, are so deplorable to us. And as I said earlier, I said that women are often forced to do well. We realized that there are several women who are there who don't have to see, their voices are not brought to the outside. So that's how they are there. Where did we come from? We have done several consultations, the hygienic conditions, their, the justice that was not given conveniently. And we decided together with our friends how to make sure that these women, the voice or the voice of these women is brought to the outside. We will translate that. So she said that the idea came when in the jail, in Congo, women, they are in the bad situations. There's a lot of women in the jail, but the situation is not good. Even health conditions are very bad. So, in the prison. And we can find some kids in the prison. And then she had the idea with some friends to create the organization which they can help women to speak up. And also there's some women there, they are in jail because of the simple case. Right, right. They should be out. So the idea started in 2019. And she had some friends, they are lawyers too. So now they try to speak up and support women in the jail. So this is the reason she started, she's leading one organization they call Revamp. What's it called? Revamp. Revamp? Yes. It means a new beginning. Okay. Right. Good. Congratulations. So the same thing is happening here in our state with an organization called Free Herbermont. Same message. Women in prison are often in prison for very small crimes and they should be out. The other point is that they are often in jail for financial reasons. Maybe they shoplifted for food for their kids or passed a bad check and they should not be in jail. And I believe that that is also going on in her country, your country, and that's the work of God, I think. So, and also I think she needs more support from here because when they are helping women and after the jail, what they can do in the society. Exactly. So she needs more support, she needs more connections. I don't want to say anything. We have a lot of organizations here. Well, she will have it from now on. Yeah. Okay, thank you. Cindy, so you received her support for this action. So what are the challenges? In what field do you need to... One minute. No, no, no, one minute left. Yeah, okay. So what field do you need to support? Yes, what is your call before we can finish? No, we wanted to... We wanted to first come into contact with other organizations here to know how things are going to improve our work against these women. We need to understand the needs of the women. As I said, they need to be strong. They need to be hydrated. Because for a job done for their women, we find 300 or 400 women there. There are women there with children who don't go to school. How do they find the means to school these children? How do they find the means to train these women to get out of jail? What is important for them, even for their families, for their societies? Because when they are in jail, there is a break between them and the outside world. And they need instruction, they need to work when they get out of jail, often they are recidivists. We want to bring them support in such a way that when they get out of jail, they learn a job when they are in jail so that they can get out of jail when they are able to get out of jail. That's a bit of it. She will be very happy to meet with other organizations like hers here in the U.S. Before we can. Yeah, you know, so... We are going to create this meeting. Yes, yes, yes. While you are there. Maybe a sister sitting. And who knows, maybe you are going to have a partnership between a sister. Yes, yes, yes, yes. So here is our little tour of the Congo. Very brief. It was very brief. We could have other conversations until Friday when these people leave, right? I hope. Okay, thank you very much. Both of you for being with us and Jules and Eric. And we hope to see you soon again. Thank you. Thank you.