 This is a pop-up call asking the question is OGM an organization or a movement or some or a floor wax or a toothpaste on Friday, August 6, 2021. And yeah, and so we're sort of in this weird culture right now where say the wrong thing and you get cut out of the herd. I was listening to a really nice talk about call in culture. It's a Ted talk, I'll find it in a second. But it was really interesting it was like hey, you know, I've survived a whole bunch of stuff Hey Pete. I think you're locally muted. Yeah I was just talking to join. Okay good. Gotcha good. Let me just find the call in Jordan or my wife. She was a great contributor on the meeting on the emerging essentials. Yeah, she was. I just want to be a little mouse on her shoulder she does, you know, reads all these things and filters them and you know, yeah, I'm lucky. I tried to watch but I could only hear you. A million years ago Kenneth Tyler of seed wiki fame, who is in the GMX said to me wouldn't it be cool. If you could look over the shoulder of six people who were madly obsessed about and I'm paraphrasing here, but madly obsessed about six kind of semi overlapping fields of interest to you. And this is before Twitter exists that I'm pretty sure. And for me like Twitter was that thing. It doesn't complete thing. It's not the same. But man, it gets really close because you can pick who you follow. And you can find those those brilliant clever obsessive people who are who are like, look tuning in on something that needs to be digested and get the best of what they think is happening. And it's, it works much better for me than any kind of RSS reader or any of that kind of stuff. And it's changed my world in great ways. Hey Michael, hey Dave. I'm curious to know what you were just describing what you were talking about. We were just praising Johan, who is Pete's life on in her merits of her absolute focus on what's happening around the Delta variant and COVID and all that. And I was then wishing I could be a mouse on her shoulder. And then I brought back an old story of kind of Tyler saying wouldn't it be great if you could look over the shoulder of six people who are like crazily madly filtering stuff in six, six kind of overlapping domains that you care about. And that was before Twitter existed Twitter kind of started to fulfill that that wish and factor I think has that that sort of same same exact flavor to it. Right. So, you know, what does what does your radar display look like. And my advice to people trying to figure out Twitter is like do not use Twitter the way you use Facebook. And Facebook you follow your friends and it's a way to figure out who broke their leg and who just had a wedding. And on Twitter, you need this like really carefully tune who you follow or your Twitter feed will turn to crap. And then vice versa, if you tune it well, it's, it's superlative. It's really like my Twitter feed has not gone down the tubes and my Twitter feed is still where I see breaking news faster than CNN faster than anything else I'll be like oh my God there's an earthquake someplace or there's a fire someplace or somebody just said something particularly stupid. So let's start in on the topic. Which has lots of kind of different kinds of roots or origins in conversation. A lot of it comes out of multiple different conversations Pete and I have had around the nature of GM and how many GMs are there. And what it is as a GM a hashtag or should it be a company or whatever else. And I think I want to just listen. Pete if you don't mind, I'd love to listen to you just riff on the question. And then see what where that puts everybody else and I'll just like listen carefully and chat on the chat for a while, and see where that takes us and I'm happy to happy to be the conversation facilitator but I just want to listen and absorb because I think I have a lot of I've been working for 18 months I've been working to figure out how to explain OGM to people so that I can make a living standing in the middle of it. Doing some kind of informational jujitsu and trust building. And I still don't really know what that is. It's a little elusive Stacy network, just a we were the first two on the call. And she said something to which I replied. It's a little bit like we're doulas for a new kind of socio cultural technical system that's emerging. And it's complicated and we're trying to help sort it out and if we're if we're lucky will have had a little bit of influence on how that all plays out. So with that, must you come in ski. Do you want to say the question again. Yes, is OGM an organization or a movement for something else. I was inspired with a with a talk by Jordan Sukut. He and I were talking about how to make how did how to like activate people using or being in a movement. Without having people feel like the movement is owned by somebody. So what we ended up talking through, I was was using a hashtag for the movement, instead of a dot work or dot com or whatever. Because I guess I was poking him, you know, so when, where do you put the fact page, if you're a movement, right, to the go on movement.org, movement.com, or what right. As soon as you have movement.org, then it's like, okay, well, so who's behind movement.org what's their business model, you know, do I trust them do I don't trust them. It's owned, you know, domain names end up with ownership. And you can kind of hack around that and we do that we do it a fair bit with people who have foundations. So the Linux Foundation sponsors a bunch of cool efforts in the world to make the world a better place. And everybody knows that, you know, that the website is, is or the whatever is, you know, the development stuff or whatever is funded and sponsored and shepherded by the Linux Foundation. So everybody goes well I guess I trust the next foundation are doing cool stuff and I can kind of trust that this organization is, but it still ends up being an organization, rather than a movement. And Jordan really, for this use case you really wanted a movement. So that hashtag thing is different than domain name it's different than a dot org. One of the interesting things that happens is that other people can start to use it and own it and change it and you know make it their own. So, so Jordan and I talked a little bit about. So what do you do when. So the use cases you know where's the fact page for, you know, hashtag movement. You just Google it, and you find what different people think about it and you find different facts on different organizational websites and, you know, different people have different tanks. And that's kind of okay that's that's what Jordan was looking for for this use case. I started talking about how maybe sometimes you want to put two hashtags together like so Jordan's organization is Lyonsburg. So maybe he wants Lyonsburg and whatever the hashtag of the movement is, maybe those are both hashtags at some point. And a hashtag is is more like a name an organization name and you can go look up Lyonsburg work, you know, you go okay I get it one hashtag is is a little bit more organizationally minded and the other one is movement minded and then when you put them together you can actually get something synergistic I think you can say that Lyonsburg is a movement organization right. So it may be think about two things one of them about generative commons I think generative commons is is more of a hashtag more of a movement than an organization. And maybe OGM is more of a movement than an organization so. So, maybe massive wiki when it's doing things in the world sometimes it's affiliated with flotilla sometimes it's affiliated with keek a lab. Sometimes it's affiliated with open global mind movement right so you could see hashtag massive wiki hashtag open global mind, you know and then. It feels different when you're saying I'm joining a movement I'm co creating movement I own it. So, a couple of the things that that resonate around the movement part of it. I know of an old historical one called critical mass critical masses of bicycle activist group with with generally good reputation but a little bit bad reputation. The mass was explicitly started as a zero accuracy it's called because the way that you, they wanted, they didn't want a head of the organization to get locked off. So the organizers of critical mass were anonymous and the way that they distributed information about the group was by photocopying zero oxygen. So they would go to a local print shop with a master of a flyer, and it would get photocopied and plastered all over the place by people who didn't know where it actually came from so they just believed in the ideas and the movement. Recently black lives matter is also a movement that was, you know, founded by probably in a multiple a few people together started talking about it and it's, it's publicly owned, and it's a movement and it's, it means different people. We've also noted that in a previous call I guess it was, we were talking about sometimes you get weird effects you get bad people taking over your movement and you say, you know, they say, you know, black lives matter is, you know, is this and they totally don't have the original, the movement and turn it upside down, or you get spin offs, like all black, all lives matter or blue lives matter or, or whatever right. But that's kind of par for course, and I don't think black lives matter the movement has necessarily suffered because it's had these essentially attacks or, or spin offs nearby. In some sense it actually makes it stronger right you get a community response of people saying, No, it's black lives matter it's not always matter and there's a reason why black lives matter. And you get a bunch of people explaining that you don't have one fact page for that. You have, you know, 1000 voices on Facebook and Twitter and the intertubes. And the last thing the, the guy that invented the concept of hashtags, Chris Messina also invented another movement called bar camp, which was really big and really, really influential from, I don't know 2005 or whatever to 2010 or 15. He explicitly didn't want to bother with the overhead of having a legal team to protect the trademark of bar camp. And so he made a couple of blog posts about bar camp, being a community mark is what he called it, something that, Hey, folks, you know, bar camp is a thing I believe in it. He had a Chris is a bit of a graphic designer so he had designed a cool logo for bar camp and the font and stuff and in subsequent kind of like Ted X is a syndication of the original. And there were syndications of bar camp bar camp Austin bar camp, I don't know DevOps or whatever. It was encouraged actually to take the original logo and tweak it a little bit make it your own. And so you saw a whole bunch of probably hundreds of different bar camp logos that you could tell were of the original and also different and unique. So that was really cool. The idea of a community mark is, hey, it's not that I own bar camp the brand, we own it together. And if it matters to us, we protect it. So when people do bad things to it. I hope he didn't say, you must I he said something like I hope the community comes together to protect it. And that's what we see happening with for instance black lives matter. That's my answer. That's awesome. Thank you for turning over the so so nicely. Are there any other community marks that you know, like who has has this been picked up is community marks the movement. Community marks did not turn into movement as far as I know. I think we see. There's there's some, I don't know if it's a spectrum or whatever but there's a there's a spectrum between kind of a brand ish name black lives matter is probably a good example. Over to memes, right, like, who's the man now dog, you know, or whatever. So dogecoin and and the various, the various descendants of doge is kind of an interesting case use case. Bitcoin is actually another interesting one. There is a Bitcoin.org but I'm not sure that anybody really looks at that as the center of Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a strange thing anyway, because nobody knows who the founder was nobody knows where the Genesis block is from or who has it. There's a bunch of mystery at the core of that body of code and movement, even though I think the body of code itself is relatively known and unified right. So there's definitely an origin to it, but Satoshi is, it's anonymous. Yeah, right, right. Anybody else just want to riff on this jump on it. I mean I was sticking some stuff in the chat just because I'm curious about this step to Peter and the, I'm trying to distinguish between like, what's a tool versus, you know, a technology kind of so to me it's like, like a hashtag is, I mean I guess there's a movement, the hashtag movement I don't know doesn't seem quite right. The hashtag seems like a tool. The tool was adopted widely. Maybe there was a movement that caused the tool to be adopted. So the hashtag movement led to the hashtag being adopted or something and that's just kind of internalized we don't think about a movement of hashtags anymore I don't know. I think I got a little bit lost in the net a part of that about. And some of the times we're talking about to say an open global mind or the, you know Jerry's brain, right, the approach of openness, I think of as a technology. So we're, we're looking for the adoption of the technology I guess, and that process of getting adoption may require a movement. But the actual thing is a technology to open nice technology. Yeah. And so, you know, hashtag open or hashtag, you know, Libre or something like that is maybe kind of a thing I think open global mind to me is a is a mindset. It's probably not a tool. And it's, I would say that it encompasses not even it's funny. I've, it's been a long time since I've, I've talked to somebody has a broader definition of tool than me. For instance, for me a stop sign or two stop signs or something like that is a collaboration tool, you know, it's a, it's, you know, a way that we've invented to kind of recognize a, you know, a situation in which we need to negotiate certain rules, negotiate a space via certain rules. Open global mind for me is, is much more of a mindset than I can't make it into a tool and I had even even the kinds of tools openness is. Yeah, openness for me is I guess as a mindset, not at all. Yeah, I mean, maybe you can call it a philosophy but then it's implemented by tools. It's a trait, I think. Another thing I've said is OGM is a verb. We've also had people say OGM is an adjective or an adjective. Yeah, something being OGM me. Yeah, as opposed to OGM in Gerund or adverb. I like the, the action in calling it a verb actually. Anybody else. So, I will speak in a little bit which is, I think, I think my major concern is the definition of what it means to OGM or to be OGM me. I think I think like, even just framing it up more and making that a little bit more palpable, if not concrete and well defined but sort of fleshing it out. And then the co-option of the term, the misuse of it. And I think open is a great case study here because, you know, like organic and natural foods, the term open has been like completely attacked in different ways by vendors who claim openness and yet, you know, they're not open at all. And I had a, one of the famous moments of my life is early in my career as a tech analyst. I, I read an article about IBM's Image Plus system. Our vice president comes back completely like scared, saying, I just talked to the IBM dude in charge of Image Plus, he had your article in front of him all marked up and read, you need to talk to him. We then had this conversation where out of his mouth starting the conversation is, I think we mean different things by the same words, the word open and strategic. In my piece had written that Image Plus was neither open nor strategic. And in his world inside of IBM, it was very open and very strategic, relative to everything else and only inside their little world. And he had, he understood what I meant by them and wound up subscribing to my research service. He wanted to become a client. I almost didn't have to talk during the call. I made friends the same as Dave, Dave Liddell, etc. But that was a really big wake up for me in, in, in first in responding to bad news. You know, not all bad news is really actually bad news. Sometimes it's just opportunities, but also that open could mean so many different things in so many different contexts it's very contextual. And so, so I have a concern about OGM is this nascent thing that I think if you scratched six frequent visitors and participants in OGM, we would have six different definitions of even what OGM is. And I, I'm, that sort of worries me but sort of not. I love the idea of it being an evolving hashtag the way Black Lives Matter has blue lives matter and all lives matter as a, as a negotiating space in society for okay what do we actually mean by these things. And why is all lives matter, not a good inclusive substitute for Black Lives Matter, for example, that's a super interesting conversation that was provoked that has happened. I don't know that everybody absorbed it but but that's really interesting to me. So, so the edge cases are actually ways that you define the term and the use of the hashtag so that's kind of cool. But I don't know how that how that plays out. I think that that variety of meanings and and being co-opted and stuff it's a sign of maturity and a sign of interest. So, it's kind of like I always think of computer viruses or spam or scourge, of course, but it also, it wasn't until email was important that we had spam. It was a sign of maturity that you've got an ecosystem and you know ecosystems have parasites and, and you know bad actors and things like that. And, and if the ecosystem is healthy enough, you know you you tip the balance and end up with mostly good. Another, another movement that comes to mind is actually Linux. And Linux is kind of. There's some interesting things about it there's there's kind of a centralization around need a sort of odds. And, you know what he's a benevolent dictator for life kind of a Linux. He held his position pretty well I think he's pretty good at making good judgments and, and recently when he realized he wasn't as cool a person as he thought he was he actually publicly said you know I'm going to step away a little bit and try to be a better person. But at the same time Linux has really grown by leaps and bounds and it's while it still has somebody owning that the trademark and the name, and even the Colonel. It, it also has gotten so big and so broad that that it, that it acts like a movement, more or less. So that's maybe an interesting hybrid of an organization and and a and essentially a hashtag. I, another way to come out this is what if OGM were an organization, right. So I think organizations have. Membership. So you're a member of an organization and membership rules. If you break rules you get kicked out of the organization. You may have to satisfy requirements to be in the organization, maybe you pay dues maybe you don't, but maybe you subscribe to certain channel of communication, and that means that you're a member and if you don't then you know either a email or a chat system someplace. And then what does, you know what did the organization do for its members if, if you say that this is an organization and here's the leadership of it maybe it's one person maybe it's a fuzzy set of people. The responsibility of the leadership to the organization to the members of the organization right if if this organization wants to make a deal with another organization, you know, then, then you're talking organization organization. How does that affect the members are the members affected by a relationship with another organization. If the organization gets in trouble. If the organization doesn't have the belief system that that I do, are they if they're doing something crazy what's my recourse inside the organization to change it, rather than to just leave those kinds of things. And those become all responsibilities of an organization. Yeah, right rates and responsibilities in both ways both directions. And can I wonder if we're confusing, I mean like, I have a hard time with Linux as a movement. And let's be just use Linux for many different things and clearly Linux as a piece of software. Right, it is a product. There, I maybe we could argue there was a movement that led to the creation of Linux. I just feel like we were using movement in so many different forms. So even you're the description of organization there are organizations that have patterns of behavior, they're open or closed right. Or, you know, so then as they get more and more open and become networks or something to be evolved from being an organization into something else or they, you know, if it's a DAO is that what's, you know, what kind of an organization is that. I don't still know how you get from there to movement. They just feel like the term starts to lose meaning. How about black lives matter, is that a movement or black lives matter I would like this matter to me seems like a perfect example of movement and, in part because it's many organizations adopting a concept so what you're trying to do is see the concept become adopted and enforced and so lots of people took on different aspects of what it means for black lives to matter and went after policing or racism or you know all kinds of different dimensions of that broad concept, but we're unified around that slogan. So, you know, the mean kind of it was or you organize around the mean. Maybe just the way to say it, but it was, you know, an original hashtag, we can identify the person who did use the first hashtag. You know, she's gotten some credit as being the founder of the movement which seems pretty bizarre, but you know it coalesced around her I guess just as well as anybody. Yeah, it's clearly the ideas have been fomenting for quite some time, so that the hashtag, you know, allowed a catalysis or something. And out of the similar 1000 hashtags that that could have been that was the one that that was memetic enough to have multiple people saying yeah I'm going to sign up for that movement to reverse and it was a better branded movement and defend the police, which is a lovely idea with a terrible name that that's going to have the possibility of actually damaging progressives as we go forward. Let me do the one minute version of the history of Linux because I think it's really instructive here. It starts as Unix which is an assembly of utilities a grab bag of utilities that's happened to work well together that created and everybody else correct me and where I break this history created at AT&T Bell Laboratories back in the golden age of Bell Labs because AT&T is under a consent decree that it cannot sell anything around computers. It has to give up this thing and it just gives it to universities says well here you go, which is kind of cool and universities don't have any budgets to spend money on operating systems or whatever else. So like hey this is really cool we'll do it and then Unix starts to get really messy and you get a bunch of variants including Berkeley and BSD you get a bunch of sort of variants of Unix. Then the government says we like Unix but there's no standard so they create a POSIX standard, which then proceeds to fail for a decade. Then you get a bunch of vendors coming in with their own flavors HPUX, IBM has AIX, I collected a bunch of them in my brain, but each of them really doesn't interoperate well and the Unix world is kind of messy and ugly at that point and that doesn't really work. Then this hobbyist named Winnes Torval says hey everybody on this list I don't mean on use that I don't really know where he started it says hey I'd like to create a version of this Unix thing that works on my PC. If you cooperate with me the results will be under the GPL and will therefore be usable to everybody that thing takes off. Then we get Linux, a grant which should be called GNU Linux, if you listen to Richard Stallman, and it's a grab bag of utilities that actually works. And then IBM comes in and says oh this is really cool and I have a whole story because I interviewed a guy happened to interview the right guy at the right time of how IBM saved its ass by adopting first Apache then Linux then open sourcing their Eclipse system to jump into open source and then you get Linux distributions, take the flavors of Linux and then layer them into sort of stacks and accompanying tools that work in particular environments for particular uses like real time transaction processing or banking or what have you. And the distros and I don't know the distros one from the other I can't distinguish them, but they create markets to make businesses, selling this open source piece of software and all of them IBM and all the different vendors have people they're in full time to work on Linux improving the thing that's in the commons in between them to make it better and better. At which point we can say that there's something like a Linux movement and a Linux industry, sort of concurrently, which is really interesting because it, despite a whole series of detours and bumps in the road. It actually turns into a completely fruitful I think to this day environment and three quarters of the servers you hit when you click on a web page are running Linux I believe in Apache. What did I screw up in that history. It's pretty good. And thanks Jerry, it's interesting. I appreciate David saying that it doesn't, you know it doesn't meet the movement requirement. I think that makes sense in maybe a larger societal view, and I think it also makes sense to call the movement technology movement. If you if you know anything about computing kind of or if you're in the computing world when you're working in the computer computing world. Linux is in so many places and some has had so many people contributing to it kind of and not I don't mean just contributing source code but essentially misusing it almost. It's into into lots of little embedded systems it's the backbone of big web servers, you know it's, it's everywhere kind of and it. It feels to me it has that same feeling of black lives matter that you know there were enough people who kind of believed in it and enough different people really very different people. Making use of it in ways that were always Linux, but also extremely variable depending on the context that they were they were in. So, I, Dave's, Dave's point makes a lot of sense to me and you know I can also say that it makes sense to call it a movement separately then so Apache to me as a tool pieces of software. It didn't change the world in the way that Linux did, even though Apache is super big and super well deployed. It's, it hasn't been misused is misused is the wrong word but Linux has been Linux has gone places where nobody ever thought it would. And it's used in, in many different ways that are just like strikingly different and Apache is always Apache so. There's an interesting book by Neil Stevenson in the beginning was command line it's a short book. You can find it on the web and rip it off. And I think Stevenson doesn't mind too much. If you do that. But he talks about the difference between Linux and Windows Microsoft Microsoft and Linux. And so one of the interesting things is he talks about the, the way that a close system like Microsoft, which is kind of like an organization has to be has to protect its image and it has to, you know, has to pretend that it's high quality. And so he talks about how Microsoft is really hard at Microsoft Windows it's really hard to find the bug list for, you know, and Microsoft will say things like it doesn't have bugs, or I'm sorry you're, you know, we don't, you know, we didn't didn't find that bug or whatever. And then conversely Linux on the other hand. It's one of the things that you bump into first if you want to say that there's a bug in Linux you can say it and you'll get celebrated for it not not, you know, not hidden. And so that that willingness to be co opted and misused and and made fun of and complained about is, you know, it's a, it's, it's a superpower and a, a, a, you know, a hallmark of a good ecosystem. That's kind of where, where Neil Stevenson lands with it, you know, you're going to have a nice healthy robust operating system versus a kind of stilted held together with baling wire but you put lots of spray paint on it so it doesn't look like a kind of operating system. And I to come back a lot of that is the difference between open source and proprietary systems or, or the bizarre on the cathedral in Raymond and back to David's David's point. A lot of Linux is really just an implementation of open source the open source concept the open source movement. And you know they think they actually I think they did do a fair amount of co evolution but the background thing is open source and the open source movement. There's a there's a fun moment in the history of open source and Linux and stuff like that where Steve Balmer says, Aha, I had my people go look at you know Linux, and it is they discovered that only like a dozen or 100 people did most of the code in it. And it is like, tens of thousands of people who did nothing. And it's like, it's exactly how it works and I think it's Clay Scherke, who talks about the membrane that surrounds open source projects, and versus the wall that surrounds proprietary companies, and how those things work and that really opened my eyes way back when in that any way they can come in and download all of Linux for free, and they get to go experiment with it learn about it do whatever on their dime. And then they can come back having done something and maybe having a valuable contribution, whereas every employee you've hired to work on windows had better be productive because they've got benefits and an office and everything else and they're dedicated to this thing. And you've got to divide up the problem into little tiny slices, because you can't have everybody working on the really juicy problems, you know, together and so you have to make a choice about who the architect on top is going to be and that gets rid of everybody else's architectural suggestions, unless there's some insanely progressive way to get good ideas bubbling through a hierarchical organization, but but it's lovely. The process comes in, I mean you can build processes that enable that twinkling of different ideas and viewpoints, and there's a procedure to do that in terms of an initial vision, a shared and ratified and molded to something slightly different vision, a potential path toward it which is experimentally pursued and then when it doesn't work for some reason, you reassess what forces called that path not to work, and you redirect energies to other approaches. It's organic when it works and it can be taught teams can be facilitated to do that. And that's part of what I think is at the root of ogm behavior is this sharing of knowledge and capacity to create change and outcome in an open community. It's recognized and valued, but not taken advantage of in a in a negative sort of way is there's no misappropriation. There's how could there be no misappropriation though doesn't that just naturally happen. Say more about what you mean. Everybody can come in and say oh yeah we do this. I mean, yeah, they can say, of course we do open. We do this thing over here which is totally the best form of flattery. You know, yeah but but it's a problem because it blurs the boundaries of what happens and it potentially can be crippling to the entire notion. What's on the set of sense of ownership you have. I mean if you have a particular copyrighted approach or a certain vector. I mean, the nature of science is that you only own the experiment you did that you published, because somebody else is immediately going to take that information and do something else, and create a vector that may align with your original and they deviate rather harshly. And to me that's part of the wisdom or opportunity of wisdom and OGM is that continuous vector realignment that optimizes, and things will fail some people will take it in the wrong direction and Well that sure didn't work. I think it's a question Jerry because I get caught up in the whole thing about the shared community being more important than the ownership and attribution. I think you end up with with protection, community based protection right the community says that's, you know that's not open global mind, you know, and actively squelches it. Or people can be excluded from the group if they're reaches enough in their behavior, because they're aligned. So that's that's true in an organization and it's not really true and it's socially true but not practically true in a movement right so when somebody's in black lives, somebody says I believe in black lives matter I've got a hashtag black lives matter shirt on. You know they do something that's not black lives matter. How do they get kicked out of the organization they can't really right but they can get shamed. They can, they can maybe even inspire a counter movement right. This is a person that we don't believe in you know bad, bad, you know hashtag bad actor or whatever right. So, you can kick somebody have an organization you can't really kick them out of a movement, you can shame them in relationship to a movement. The original movement doesn't have enough critical mass, it might be overwhelmed by somebody who just co ops the hashtag, so that so that if there's like a couple dozen of us sitting here saying hey we think we're you know hashtag ogm. And some big company comes in and spends a whole bunch of ad budget on it does whatever else it says nope we're ogm. It could look like on the out to the outside world like they had at first and they could just like wipe us out. So this is going to be that important that somebody is going to try to do that probably, but that's easy that's easily imaginable. I can kind of remember open source community forks like that where somebody. And actually, right now it's audacity audacity is in that spot audacity is a sound editing tool, audio editing tool. It's been open source for a long time and it got the assets got bought basically and and the company about it started putting adware or spyware or something in it. And then the community is forced with the fact or forced to the realization that their tool that they called audacity is now not the same tool. And that means, you know, not, not infrequently an open source community is where a community is taken over by somebody that is not in the original spirit. Maybe it's one of the original founders who was always kind of wacko or maybe it's maybe it's an external party like audacity. What happens in those things is you get a counter movement right you get something called real audacity or somebody will change the name and call it something else. And then it's put to a social vote right. You shame the people who are using the tool that went crazy, and you reward the ones that are have the original spirit, and maybe that sometimes the name changes, you know, but in either case, sometimes the rift is healed and they, they all decide to come back together that's that's probably what happens mostly. But in either case, it's very traumatic, and it can extinguish movements, but it can also be generative and create, you know, more, more interest and more more activity. Anyone else want to jump in. Okay, Bill, Michael, Phil, Phil, how's the move going. That's going in the middle of a mountain of laundry basically. Excellent. Thank you for that. I was just going to jump into the, like the, the movement movement versus organization question. I have a point of view of, if it's a membership organization. That is low barrier to entry. Well, I mean, I guess I guess the question, if we're if we're if we're living in the hashtag happily in the hashtag movement. World now, I'm supportive of that. We're talking about that versus some kind of organization, and therefore getting into the what that organization could be. I think there are some questions there and I just don't want to go there if it seems like. I think that's interesting territory if you want to take us there. I mean, just the conversations that I think you and I and Stacy have had and and others of us have had about, you know, OGM being an organization that that could be a few of the things on that long list that I put in the matter that are that are more co-hate than, than a movement or a religion or, but you know that we're we're an entity that can be named that would have a website that could have members and non members that that could accept donations or or income as an organization as a for profit organization that could be a co-op that could be all those different things and there are just a world of questions most of most of them having to do with you know with with business model and IP and and what what kind of stakes of what sort people hold that you get into there that you completely take off the table if you go for a movement, you know, living around a hashtag and and trying to just make this happen that way. Yeah, I didn't I didn't have a proposal particularly I mean I, you know that that I sort of tend toward the OGM, not being a for profit business. If it if it is an organization being a nonprofit that perhaps, you know grants money to other entities, but you know, I don't even I only pitch that against the kind of for profit model, not against the hashtag month. And just as a tiny bit of background before passing the floor to Pete. The reason for this call is that in our long road with Lyonsburg heading maybe toward something called stewardship, we signed a memorandum of understanding with a tiny little entity called OGM bootstrap, which is basically sort of a just a dissolvable vessel for me. And there is this MOU basically makes OGM bootstrap a fiscal spawn C of Lyonsburg which is a 501 C3 which is qualified in all 50 states in the US, which is really interesting because it's very difficult to actually be a charity that's registered in all 50 states. So what is it OGM bootstrap could go solicit funds for something and like that I'm kind of stuck on that sandbar because like if OGM is a movement but not an entity then what is the entity and how does that work and that's a different discussion but this call was originally going to be around. What is the entity relationship agreement that participants with OGM would have, which was Pete's excellent question like what is a how do we answer that in a fact file format. Like I'm in a room that needs me to move around a little bit. And so we morph that question into this question because if it's if it's a movement not an org then a lot of these things as you just said Michael right now dissolve. You know they don't become problems we get another set of problems with how do we corral and manage a movement, and also I get the problem in the middle of what am I pitching to whom, and how do I describe that entity whatever it is living inside of the ecosystem, I'm happy to try to do but that that's what I'm facing right this minute it's like, I need to explain this thing to people in a way that they're like shit that needs to exist and I want to back it. Thanks. So, I can, I can talk about. I can talk about my vision of where this goes and I don't mean to say that that's the only place it could go or that it's the best place that could go. But it's the way I think about it. For me, there would be hashtag open global mind. And you actually dismantle open global mind calm in favor of the hashtag. And then you would see what we think of now as OGM as several different more formal organizations with a smaller charter. So I can imagine something that we call OGM fund I don't know that it would be called OGM fund maybe it would maybe it wouldn't. OGM fund could be a fairly tightly scoped organization that has a bank account and a relationship with Lyonsburg that helps it get funding. And has relationship with donors does fundraising activities with donors and OGM fund. OGM fund.com maybe OGM fund.org would market itself OGM fund, or maybe hashtag OGM fund at OGM fund.org hashtag open global mind has that open global mind hashtag. But it's not owned by open global mind. It's not the purpose of open global mind isn't to distribute funds yada yada yada. This little organization called OGM fund is the thing that distributes funds collects and distributes funds. There might be something else called something that something that works on software and standards for personal launch bases and collaborative knowledge bases. That could be called free Jerry's brain. It could have free Jerry's brain.org, or maybe free Jerry's brain. I don't know collective sense commons.org or whatever. And then when it talks about itself it would say, we believe in personal launch management we believe in collaborative knowledge management we believe in collective knowledge, hashtag open global mind. So, free Jerry's brain doesn't have to be part of an open global mind organization, it doesn't have to have open global mind in the name that when it when it talks about itself in plenary. It says hashtag open global mind, we belong to the movement of open global mind. Same same thing right. Maybe there's a organization working on soil health regenerative agriculture. Let's call it community food systems. Community food systems doesn't care too much about collaborative collaborative tools, except it uses them a little bit. It doesn't force, you know, everybody else that thinks they're open global mind to to have regenerative agriculture as their core, but community food systems is all about regenerating soil health. You know, that's the things that works on. But when it promulgates itself, at least in certain parts of the world, it would say community food systems, you know, hashtag community food systems probably hashtag open global mind. We believe in the open global mind values and principles and yada yada yada. And it's easier for us to say hashtag open global mind, rather than saying, here's like 50 different things that we believe in right we believe in openness we believe in collaboration we believe in the yada yada yada right I've, I've distilled all of that down, even though I'm working on community food systems. There's even a chunk of mind space called open global mind, and I say that right, and I belong to that. And if somebody says, you know, what's this open global mind thing I don't understand what that has to do with soil, I can tell them. You know, it helps me work on soil health when I'm working collaboratively with a bunch of other people in an open global mind. When somebody says, Oh, yay, that open global mind I heard about it from you. I'm going to use it for my acquisition and enclosure patent IP system. And I'm going to be gone. No, that's not open global mind. And I'm going to go get my buddies and we're going to beat you up. We're going to tell you that that's not the thing to use we're going to encourage you not to use it. We're going to start shaming you. Hey, this guy yada yada is using this hashtag the wrong way. You know, hashtag bad actor or whatever right. So that's the way I see it. I love that picture. Where does your average muggle in the world once they first see the hashtag go to find out what the hashtag needs. It's, it's kind of the same answer as black lives matter right. Not really. I'm not sure it is. So, so in my mind, somebody sees community food systems or whatever right. Drone systems for global internet hashtag open global mind. It's like well that's weird. So the first thing I do, and I'm weird so maybe this isn't the first thing most people do but the first thing I do is either I click on it. Whatever system I'm in is has auto linked it, you know, if I'm in matter most. It's auto linked it to other things about the same thing and I maybe I don't see the fact about what open global mind is but I see some other instances of open global minus right. Oh wow it's not only a drone system but it's also a community food system and it's also personal launch manager system. Well that's weird. It's a picture of you know okay I kind of get what black lives matter means I kind of get what open global minds means it's something kind of expansive. I think most people at some point will say, hey Siri, what's open global mind or they'll type that into their search engine or whatever right. And their search engine will return a bunch of results and if the open global mind people. Sorry, I actually do have one Siri next to me. I figure I was wondering if that was going to happen. It's pretty brave right. How does she answer the question. She's like I don't understand what you're talking about. Oh man. You'll type it in your search engine. If we've, if open global mind has done its job well. It's an interesting thing right if black lives matter, you know who's the organization that did that who is the person who set up the fact, who are the people who built the Wikipedia page, who are the, you know, it's not one person it's not one team. It's a bunch of people who are attracted to the vision and wanted to explain it to other people and wanted to, to support it and help it and protect it. So you type it in a search engine open global mind, you know you get, you get a fact on creative sense commons collective sense commons you get a fact on on community food systems. Why is community food systems part of open global mind or why do we believe in open global mind right and then you know it says well community food systems is built on these principles, and these principles resonate strongly with open global mind. So you find, you know, in the relative the relevant relevance search engine mind of the internet, you find out what open global mind is or you find out what black lives matter is. And if you're actually have decent at it, if you're either, you know, 20 or under or an info for you actually start to see the bad things to write black lives matter is when white people get together and have a great time. And you go well that's weird, you know, so you dig a little bit more you find the Wikipedia article like your, your high school teacher told you to you start reading up and you go okay. You know you get a list of the times, we keep there's some Wikipedia article or whatever it says the times black lives matter has been misused. Here are the variations of black lives matter here's all lives matter and here's the explanation why that's not inclusive. Here's blue lives matter and all about that you know and so you get a whole picture. And that's what we do in this day and age you know you, or so I guess the other thing is muggles. I many muggles many muggles know to ask their teenager right. Honey what does black lives matter mean, and, and the teenager goes, ah, you know, it's a big story. Let me sit you down. Let's get some beverages, let's talk through it right, and you get woke right. So, open global mind, same thing. But, and I guess I still feel like you're, you're still describing open global mind as a meme that you want to have penetrate right you want this to have a viral impact. And, and then you've got a set of strategies that you hope will help it penetrate. And you've got a whole set of ideas that you hope it attaches to kind of. I have problems with it like it because that means like black lives matter is like a principle statement of principles, open global mind. I guess can be a statement of principle it's also kind of a thing could be a thing it's it sounds a little nouny. So maybe there's a wordsmithing problem with the meme I don't know. But, but, you know, I'm from from the, okay so sitting with trying to work with the global regeneration co lab right trying to just make the equate equate to equate these things. I think of regeneration as a movement. It is a meme that represents a better future. Right. It has a whole bunch of organizations in the world who are interested in the better future. I think all of those organizations are involved in a movement. They may not recognize that or not, you know, and they're certainly not connecting right so the movement does not have momentum. So, GRC is an organization it's a network it's a community it's a co lab it's something it has boundaries it's kind of porous but it is a bounded thing. It is a part of the movement. Its role is to try to help change makers be more effective. Right in that movement. It wants to deliberately connect with other parts of the movement to help tie the movement together. Right. And if we're successful this future of regeneration will happen more quickly. But, but we don't, you know, we're not going to, I mean, I think it would be counterproductive to try to own the concept of regeneration is and the movement would happen more slowly. You know, I mean, there's kind of, there's kind of pragmatic reasons for around ownership and positioning and stuff because if you do certain things that it constrains the meme instead of spreads it. So you're almost making pragmatic tactical decisions about which one which way to go I think. And the fact of the matter is I'm trying to run Google ads for this week, the speed network anything other speed networking this afternoon, regeneration pollination. It's really fun come hanging out with other regeneration people and accept it. I'm trying to run Google ads for this thing. And I can't get any clickthroughs, because I don't think anybody has any fucking idea what regeneration means or why they should care you know, and in the Google world right in my little world sure but in the Google world it's not enough. And, and I don't know how to re wordsmith it to, you know, find people who might resonate enough so that, you know, the clean and click on the ad. And so, I mean, I think, you know, we've got several layers of problem around open global mind, ranging from it's really, really, really niche, you know, so the idea of movement behind it is very ambitious to understand what I can let go of the word movement, or, or leave it kind of floating in definition space, you and I think of movement differently so I wouldn't call regeneration movement, even it's too diffuse for me to call it a movement. And it's funny, it's close to a technology or, you know, or something like that or a trick or something like that. But anyway, I would be totally happy with open global mind being a meme in your language. And I think that's fine. I do agree. Black Lives Matter has a little bit better. It's, it's the wordsmithing of it is a little bit more adjective, adjective instead of noun ish, but I think that's, that's overcomeable. So I think so the, you know, so the advice I would have around regeneration is that it's not focused enough, and you can't you'll never be able to get enough focus around it. Whereas I think open global mind, the there's a there's a trick to getting enough words to enough. Yeah, words together to make it have a direct ability or something or focus. So, I purposely named collective sense commons in the spirit of open global mind. You know, I, it's got a bunch of words in it that go well together and have a fairly specific meaning an evocative meaning. I actually shot myself in the foot a little bit, because it's really supposed to be collective sense making comments. But that's just too long for a domain name. Practically, I think so it's collective sense commons which has has a decent sound but is wordsmith less well. It's a small hitch in the ointment or whatever it is, which is that BLM grew huge naturally because it makes sense and self explanatory. And there's a lot of people whom it affects. I think I mean it got really gigantic. It got gigantic, but it makes sense because it's gigantic not because it makes sense as a phrase. Like, like, I read it and I'm like, Oh, I kind of get what might be the problem it has right away is, is that what do you mean black lives matter don't you mean all lines matter I thought we were all, you know, equal opportunity or whatever. It, it's, it's come to mean a thing, but just, I think Jerry you and I are, you and I are both friends, distant friends of read Hoffman. I, I remember talking to read Hoffman and he said I've got this new thing called linked in, and I'm like link 10 what's like a tin of links like what like I don't get it. But nowadays, people who don't know read, and people who know linked in say they will say, what's your LinkedIn profile right. And I can still hear my head Pete of you know 20 whatever going linked in as a dumb name dude I'm not I didn't say that out loud because I learned enough manners not to say that somebody's name is dumb because maybe it's not. But I still I'm not crazy about the name, but it's a thing right now and it's, you know, so I think that's that's true of black lives matter to I don't I mean, I don't think it's truly obvious what it is. So it's Google and Yahoo were not part of the vocabulary until companies decided to take really weird names for their, for their companies that's happened with black lives matter to, I think, to most people it doesn't mean that much and it means contradictory kinds of things. Well, partly I was bringing up at scale because being a nascent potential meme or movement. Maybe that's what we're that's what we are a nascent potential mean we're movement and that little boom. And I think one of those were actually vulnerable to SEO and SEM attacks, completely vulnerable to SEO and SEM, which means that a core competency of movement builders needs to be SEO and SEM. What, which are by the way, completely contrary to the ethics of OGM. I don't like you're not vulnerable until to attacks until you're big enough to attack. So you want to watch for accidental stuff like regeneration regeneration international people are just going to stomp all over that by accident. Open global mind I don't think people will be stomping on by accident. And then if it's big enough to attract attention attention of griefers, then it's I think it's big enough to protect itself. Mr. Anderson. I don't know exactly what you've done to yourself, but you're close you need to still need to unmute. You pull the peak which is like pulling taking down your hand before unmuting and then getting like little tangled in your shorts. Yeah, I'm going to have to get some embedded technology so when I click on the screen and undoes my, you know, you know, we're all going to be chipped soon anyway, the vaccine. That you're more close to the truth for me than you know, anyway. So for me, whatever I mentioned some open global mind and you know, to my wife and others, although I don't I'm not out and about as much as they used to be two years ago, just saying. It really, it pushes buttons because people go what. I mean it does. People if you say and people will go. I mean it just for it's it's evokes things for people. It's meant to raise questions right well that it does so I, I think that's terrific. The thing about black lives matter when you're we're talking it made me think the thing that black lives matter did. The way I see it is it push buttons. Right. The black people a few of them that I know and I mean, they just like, like, damn it. I'm standing right in front of you. So you're going to look at me. And that's its powers right there. What you mean it's like just sit down and shut up well, you know, I'm going to say this once. And you can go to the library and start reading, you know, whatever. And so I think so open global minds have that evoke evocative thing which I think is it's, as Judy would say it's a nice trick to have right now. And if you take, if you take something like deal I'm seriously you will go start trying to learn up. And then we'll do some history. And one of the best things I think we can do is help people get through that history well. So, if you say open global mind people go what do you mean you go hey you know, I was confused to but here's a couple of things to like, you know, little things to read that might help you think I mean I think of it, you know, I lived that long long enough to see all make it happen but this is like, I'm reading a history book about modernization, and we're on the cusp the same way the world was in like the 1820s 1830s. I mean that was, you know people say the Industrial Revolution started in the 1750s there wasn't real industrialization even in Europe until 1840. So that's, there was other stuff going on in the world and I think this is part of a discussion that's happening all over the world. And anyway, so that's one reason I think it's like yay, I'm glad I found it. But I think that might be something to be able to say, you know, this is part of we are trying to rethink on learn what we used to the way we used to understand the world. Anyway, so I don't know what else that I'm trying to write up some poetry about this. Perfect. Well, and that's it you know I was trying to think of like, in terms of like regeneration. I'm not going to I'm not married to the term, but the concept of, you know we actually are going to have a better world instead of a worse world. You know you have to have positive some outcomes not zero some outcomes, you know there's a whole set of kind of ideas that are embedded, which I think is similar in terms of black lives matter it's not one thing. It's not one of the things that it represents right there's a bundle of ideas that are represented by the mean. I don't know, I'm not as clear on what the bundle of ideas are around open global mind. And I guess I probably get a little worried that they're kind of technocratic. They're kind of like you know if we if we were philosophically pure enough in a certain way of information sharing and collaboration good things but magically happen. And that's matter I think in is a little bit more, you know it's the black you know, I like, you know, like it's a little more focused. I think that helps with the motivation. I assume there's a group of people who are devoted to this movement because it really represents them. The open global mind one might be a little bit more of a stretch to get people passionately involved. The regeneration one has been to I would say although it feels like maybe people ought to get involved. But, but I do think so the wordsmithing probably matters. And I think probably having a kind of a clear concept of what that bundle of concepts that you're trying to advance are because that's probably what you have to defend with your SEO as well too right. Judy. I just had a, I don't know a brain fart or brain flash I'm not sure which, but what if we had, if we changed open global mind instead of three words into open a globe with score lines and mind. Where might that take us in terms of how we think about how it operates. It's an open mind, it encompasses the globe. It includes multiple representations. It could consider a different way to represent the concept that would lead us to spin what it becomes in a different way. Like that in the matter most. I'm not in matter most because I'm on my tablet so I can't see. I just did open a little emoji for a globe and then mine. Okay. And, and, yeah, and Pete just put it in the zoom chat. Thanks Pete. Thanks Pete. It doesn't render properly. It doesn't render properly shoot. Thank you. I was wondering. Really dynamic, we could actually have a, a global representation that rotates, which would be fun, just because it's in constant motion, and it implies the connecting of all the pieces and other stuff. It kind of took me in a good space personally, because what we want is an open community. If the globe is moving people are moving if people are moving there's movement. So that makes it a movement as well. And thanks for fixing it. Thanks Judy, Phil and Michael. I'll go over a little bit but one thing I struggle with with open global mind and relating it to a movement is that there's no action in the phrase itself like black lives matter is a statement. That is a statement of something like occupy Wall Street was a movement there's a verb there it's we're going to occupy this this, this is a movement or this is a statement that we're standing behind. Open global mind is a thing. Like, it's, it's a, I'm not sure I'm saying it right but it's open, like, opening are like are creating a global mind or something. It's, there's no action or statement it's it's I think it needs a tagline. If we do a graphic and a tagline maybe we get there but my sense of the open global mind is that we're trying to extract wisdom from every possible mind and put it in a place where it's retrievable and shareable. And in doing that it becomes a movement because you're engaging the ideas of all of these different people. Yeah. I don't know exactly. That's the best I can do on a Friday afternoon. And yeah, I mean, that's how I try to because people say, what are you talking about Judy and I have to try to explain well this is a bunch of people who are good thinkers with a lot of disparate knowledge in different fields that come together to talk about to share their perspective from their unique point of view with other people who have different points of view so that we end up with a richer discussion. And that fits with my sense of the movement of what OGM should be we should be inviting and encouraging that dialogue at every level in every place. In order to come to better decisions I remember Jerry saying real early doing this because we're making decisions without context. We don't know the background and the history and what led here and we can't make the right decision if we don't have the context and the framing and the surrounding landscape so to speak. So, I don't know. I'm struggling with this a little bit but the last thing I was going to say was just that something like weave the world or knowledge weaving or something that is in action or something like even like black lives matter is a statement because it had to be said like there was things were happening that were were basically saying that they didn't matter so it had to be said. I'm not sure where it falls it's both like, it's not an action more movement and it's not. It depends on whether open is an adjective or verb. If open is a verb. Then it has the action momentum of opening minds in lots of different ways. I don't know I don't have that unique name I'm just I'm just trying to frame what it means to me I guess, which is the opportunity to see situations from very different points of view than mine. From people who have actually thought about it, and I'm not just quoting bad press this distorted. They've done some vetting of that thought process. They've deliberately sought perhaps contrary and viewpoints to be sure they haven't missed something and what they're concluding. There's that whole discipline of knowledge acquisition. And we've unfortunately become a culture that doesn't do that. So I think that's why it's so important worldwide. The number of people who are taught critical thinking or encouraged to ask questions instead of make assumptions and statements is a lower number than I'd love to see Michael then Pete. You're still muted. There we go. Good. Since we've gone here. I actually just put this in the zoom chat that I always figured at some point we get to some like sort of branding issues. There's a problem with open global mind, which is that open mind and open mindedness are very much a thing. It means something when you say open minded and when you talk about open minds you're talking about not bringing your, you know, preconceptions to it like being open, being willing to see both sides, all those things, which are ways I'm sure we would like people to behave around the knowledge that that are our movement says should be assembled and shared and collaboratively, you know, vetted. I was I'm sorry. I don't know if this is a finished sentence but but you know whenever any of us describe what open global mind is, we explain away open minded by using words that I just heard Judy use and, you know, like shared and collaborative and commons and, you know, cooperating and and Yeah, social intelligence, all those kinds of things. And if we're trying to come up with a memable, you know, concept. I don't know if open global mind is the best thing for that. I've always felt like, even in this convert coming into this conversation of the hashtag idea that the hashtag might not actually be those three words I mean I like those three words and I'm comfortable with them. But if if I was sitting down in a room with a client saying, How are we going to get this idea out into the world and get it to stick. Just like we wish somebody might have done with defund the police. We might do something different. So I'm just putting that out there. Thanks Michael, and I'm wondering Michael, thanks for nothing. I, you know what, I appreciate you're saying that and I didn't know that you'd been harboring that fear or wish or trouble for for the all this time you like I'm, I'm really glad that it's on the table. It's a different response to open mindedness I find it as a wishful thinking kind of thing I think that a lot of us would love to be more open minded and be able to have these conversations, but I realized that a whole bunch of humans on earth may have a more toward your response to it so I'm wondering who else on the call. Can you explain before other people are responding to it and you just ran to just explain to it. I mean, open mindedness, I do think is a good thing. But it's, it's, you know, it's pairing away. I think you would agree, we could agree that open mindedness is an open to reception, like of and not bound up by your preconceptions and and like already being being closed minded doesn't mean being doesn't mean a total lack of knowledge it means you've taken the knowledge you want and that's what's sticking to right. I mean, it doesn't mean it doesn't mean uneducated it means firm up in your beliefs like us. Exactly, exactly. So I think it's not, I didn't mean to make it sound like it's dumb or something. I'm perfectly happy to say that the countenance that different people have different interpretations of the phrase I just want to know what other people in this call think of the phrase. Anybody else want to jump in. Wendy. Oh my God, insomnia strikes. Well it's just after five in the morning 20 past so that's okay for us a bit rich but five is usual so you've just gotten up you haven't stayed up. No, that's true. Yeah, that would mean that I am slower than I should be. We're, we're right in the teeth of clean language. Whether open global mind is clean or not. So, when I say clean language that means something particular to Wendy not it's maybe not it's not necessarily a good hashtag for itself. Okay, so who's part of the conversation I haven't opened up to him quite that much yet. David was other people. I haven't met lots of them so. We should go around the room maybe. It's nice to meet some people. So Jerry, you know, Michael, you know, this is our first. Michael runs factor and always says smart things and has just wondering whether open global mind and open mindedness conveys the right thing. Judy, you know, at least a little. Dave is visiting. I don't know if that's the right word to say. Dave is participating from the regenerative global regenerative generation co lab global something space. Bill just got his farm to farm to farm to whatever farm to home delivery. So he may not be here. And Stacy has wise and interesting conversations with us. And Phil is moving and has lots of laundry. Phil works with my con factor and he's also spent a fair amount of time with OGM and Jerry and Wendy and I have had a date to get together to talk about clean language and OGM and maybe the way to think of OGM and how to get to the actual space, which Wendy can describe and I can't. Yeah. And Wendy had sent me a paper by Max Barro and a couple of colleagues about what these spaces look like which Wendy I have not brought up in this conversation yet because you weren't here kind of to represent it and talk about it. But I'm happy to screen share some of that if you wanted to head in that direction, but also, we've been on for almost 90 minutes and that that's coming up quite quickly so we're coming up to the end of our plan call time. I knew that would happen, but I guess it was a choice, isn't it. So, Oh, very happy you're here. So open to whatever anybody would like to suggest for next step. Michael, Michael raised the question. What, and Jerry you kind of echoed it what does is open global mind good for people. Kind of crazy Michael do you want to recap real quick. Why you think open global mind might not be wordsmiths best. I basically that whenever any of us explain it. We're really talking about connected minds shared minds collaborative, you know that the being able to link and and often as we talk about it, map connections between different particles of knowledge and get the benefit of the things that we can draw. I think that it, you know, I was actually hadn't thought about this before but I was just thinking about Jerry your brain. I mean, the last thing, though that you have made that brain open to us. It is it is a very connected brain and that's kind of the kind of brain where we want to build for for everyone where the connections and the organization and and what you can, what it reveals is, is what you can see, not general openness is my thought. Anybody else want to riff on that or come in on whether OGM has been working for you or not and were you following us. Phil. Sorry, David, I spoke with me so you go ahead. Well, okay. The, I did see OGM coming out of Jerry's brain. I guess which is probably one of the reasons I thought of it as a noun a little bit. It's a thing. So I probably, you know, kind of it's helpful. It's been helpful to hear the idea of, you know, and the conversation that there's a ton of hubris in the notion that you're going to create a movement. Probably, probably so much that it's not even really worth trying to pretend to do. You're either joining one, right, or, you know, you're digging off. And so, you know, I don't think we're going to brand a movement and so I don't think it really matters so you're going to position yourself within a movement that you're hoping to advance you hope to become successful whatever. But you're joining a wave right it's the wave phenomena that's going to matter, and you don't get to dictate the direction of the way you splash around it. Phil then Wendy. Um, yeah. When do you go ahead. I woke up thinking I had hatchery and high and Hydra is to sort of metaphors. There are so many smart people in in a GM and I agree with the connections. And I've been part of this conversation in human factors before where the model is either you are the thing or you support the thing who you support the people who make the things so open global mind seems to have if connections is the right word. It has its position to be able to help people keep connections clean, sort of, as far as ontology goes as far as it goes as far as, you know, the structures of other organizations go. I mean, what you are just has to be good at helping other people make what they want to go to, because it will you'll never stand for all the things that people might want to build. And if you take massive wikis, for example, you understand where wikis go wrong. Pete understands heaps about wikis, and any organization actually needs to be able to build something that makes its connected mind. It will be really good if they did what we did. If what we did was really good and really clean, but it might just be that you have to be really good at standing for that concept, so that anyone else who makes an offshoot makes something that has a lot of the qualities of that need to be able to remain connected. Does that make sense? You've got to be a really good example of the technology and the ideation that keeps an organization connected over something that's important. People may not actually do the same thing that we're doing. If we're like a repository of people who know how to do that at the top level, if we're the best at doing that, then other people might stay with us to do their thing. But at least if they leave doing things that are clean, as far as, you know, some of the concepts in that article I showed you, Jerry, then you can't go too wrong, because people often do their own thing. So rather than being the thing, sometimes it's good to be an exemplar of the thing, if that makes sense. And then people at least can come back to someone, an organization that says, yeah, if you do wikis that way we always do go wrong. Because, you know, people will get lost in their own creation. It's what's happening all the time and they're making good things, but those things aren't remaining connected themselves. So maybe that's it. In human factors it turned up is turned up as being are you supporting the people who are trying to make clean things or are you the thing. That's pretty much what it resolves down to. And I think that's sort of a different path back into where this conversation started, which is is OGM a movement or an organization. Yeah, you're using different kinds of language but it sounds like the same sort of concept. Do you mind, do you mind just giving us a minute or so on clean, like what you mean by clean. Okay, so clean as in as in clean language and know that narrative is the middle strip of what we're doing. So there's two images that I would show with you to explain why clean, and while clean language is where the initial usage came from then I'm about to explain. I'm talking about being in clean organization. So I'm using clean as a metaphor for what I just said is, you know, best of brand in terms of the types of structures and technologies and other bits and pieces that were as good as we can see how to make anything. So clean means best of brand. No. Clean doesn't. So I'll tell you what clean languages and then I'll use the word clean in another thing in a bigger sense. Okay, that's probably going to make it easy. So. So, when the work clean language came from a guy called Dave. Like David Grove, who was an amazing counselor. It does his work. He came out of New Zealand. And if I say the word design is in position words are in position every time you say something to someone you're positioning them to respond to a certain something that may not be there something. Okay, because you're using certain words you're making certain assumptions. And so he discovered in his counseling that if you use a certain pattern of questions, those questions allow the person to return their thing to you in the cleanest possible form. So, what would you like to have happened is a classic question. What would you like to have as an opening piece or what would we like to have happen as a result of this meeting. So result has implications that we want to result we might know what a result. And if you use these clean language questions. There's about 12 of them. They leave the space open for people to create joint metaphors or joint symbols that allow them to work as a group at the cleanest possible way, because I haven't imposed my result on your result. We've negotiated what result means in the terms of our words. So we're not coming in with a dictionary meaning of results. And that is really powerful because it means that at the very beginning of a movement, or an organization, or a pair of people, you have jointly defined in ways that are ambiguous enough for you to be functional, but useful enough to be, you know, quick, and giving people an enduring set of words that they can continue to use and develop for themselves so clean. There's clean different people who've used this system but clean language is the concept. And it's really powerful because it keeps people united over things that they would otherwise fall apart over languages absolutely one of them it's what's called a semantic field. So language is right at the heart of it all right in this meeting you will have used language that will make you stay together or not make you stay together because you'll all have joint different. I don't understandings of what that words are what those words are. So clean language has been used by fully developed by people like, and it's continuing to be developed James Lawley and Penny Tompkins are two people and they've got what's called symbolic language so that you can do things like maps and metaphors and such, and it's got more of a counseling field. And then there's systemic clean language or systemic modeling. And that's some Kate, Caitlin Walker, and her crew. And it's amazing in terms of if you participate using those sorts of ideation those sorts of processes. You can keep an entity together or a group or a pairing of people or whatever, the systemic modeling, or an individual, more functional because they don't have to put into dysfunctional words what they mean together, because almost everything that they're making won't be fully formed, and they just explode. So clean, the clean concept, and that's far too many words but clean language, I would go, Caitlin Walker, and, and it's Caitlin Walker systemic modeling and what they're doing is doing a joint metaphor for what they're all collectively thinking and keeping that metaphor, real for each of the people's understanding of everybody else's understanding. Does that make sense. I think so. Yeah, but in clean as a concept then, if you take it up to the organization it's got clean coding it's got clean structures as far as management goes it's got clean everything's answerable to this joint metaphor or modeling, if that makes sense. I, the conversation just before about naming of OGM to what you just said, and, and I may be wrong here. To me open global mind contains intentionally several different leading metaphors. Hey wouldn't we like to be open minded and it's kind of aspirational what does it mean to be open minded gosh I might have to be vulnerable. It is all it is meant to invoke that. It might we be creating or weaving a global mind. And what is that and how does that work and wouldn't it wouldn't it be interesting to have some kind of global memory or, or brain or something like that. All of that is intentionally meant to be in the phrase open global mind, which seems to me to mean that it's as unclean as a phrase can get. Am I like missing the point here. Well let's start with where where knowledge is held it's not just in the brain. The knowledge is held in your body. So that's why I wanted like, I keep on wanting to bring this up but you know it's embodied knowledge, people go, people are really fine with just embodied knowledge. That's sort of the bottom layer of this thing. But embodied knowledge are people who get on perfectly nicely in the world, and, and cultures. I'm not, I'm not screen sharing and I could. But these embodied knowledge is perfect in a, in a, in an organization that doesn't need to be global, because you can't disseminate the knowledge, but I'm functioning perfectly fine. All my knowledge about what I eat, where how much I sleep, who I spend time with, how to do the skills and things like that that I need they're all in my body. Why would I need to have them open and why would I need to share them. Thank you. So go to this one. Thank you very much Jerry. So embodied knowledge is fine but you can't distribute it because you haven't got a body across the world my body is in Australia in Canberra 530 in the morning. Okay, so that is not it's open to me, but it's not global. Okay, and you cannot miss embodied knowledge it's where thinking comes from. And then the top bit the abstract knowledge that doesn't mean anything to anyone who doesn't have a shared context. So it can't be global unless you have some sort of shared context which is what this meeting is. So the narratives bit is the bit that strides strides those two things. So that's where the stories and the words and the clean language is so important because without that strip. Nothing connects up all the bodies all over a straight all over the world will not connect up. Because what they know individually is just it's not possible to be able to join it up. I'm confused about why the curve doesn't go down into the right first. Because I would assume that stories and narratives are the vehicles for diffusion of knowledge, like that that that would be like the charger. And the moment it gets to abstract, I would actually curve it back it like you lose a lot of it does curve back and so that's part of a box. And I space this so this is Max Brasso's work and it is really powerful but what he's done is he's folded down to know it's not in that particular one because I didn't want to go quite that far, but this is the guy. Okay. So it's actually a space. And what he's done. If you go back, the structure of the structured unstructured bit is actually two dimensions. One is abstraction and the other one is starts with C codification codification. I know there's a big words I know this sounds academic, but it's so important so it's actually a cube. And so he's folded those two things codification that's exactly what you do when you've got a wiki issue categorize something as X, and you put things into a box. And it's, you're asking people to link things together and then share them with other people, and they'll all link them and structure them in different ways. And therefore you can't share them unless you're more abstract. That's what a meme is it said it's an abstract version of something that's been shared by people, but it's been collapsed into something that's funny and shareable and they'll all take it different ways but they can use it. So this structured unstructured pieces got two dimensions. So it actually comes all the way up to abstract and then it comes back again. If that makes sense. So it is actually a cube it does come back again, but it comes back again as a shared thing around the world. The version of results and your version of results had this little fold thing in the middle in our conversation, it goes up to the top. We agree as a society what results are, make money, and that comes back to me in my world, and it does this big cycle. And if you get the abstract bit wrong, which is what a global mind would hopefully avoid doing. If results means money, then everyone has to get richer. It comes back again and it comes back to me and in my world. So you just got this big loop, but the narrative part in the middle is what we can do really well, as long as we don't force. You want, if you force people to use your words, your structure. Jerry you could talk to this, I feel like I'm ranting. If somebody had to use your brain structure, would they be able to step into doing that easily. There are a few people who couldn't go navigate my brain and be really happy doing so and have told me that when they hit a new topic they go search my brain first because probably I've got some stuff there. There for them, the tool and the way it maps and the way I've used the tool work for the way they represent things in their head. A lot of other people would prefer and probably need my guidance or my storytelling over the brain so that I can say, there's this then there's this and then that led to this thing and I can tell stories like James Burke would tell, you know, in his connection series which was one of my inspirations. I have narratives that I can tell through the brain so that works well but as a freestanding thing you have to be a couple sigmas off the mean to kind of just jump in and go hey this is easy I get it. Yeah, but that's them navigating your brain, but the brain is a structure it's like a narrative structure you just talk them through it. I've told them how to use it and they've taken someone, but if they needed to actually jump in and use exactly your brain to do whatever they needed to do, like they just took your one and put things only in your categories and such. That would be hard for me, because I don't think the way you think my abstractions are different to your abstractions my categories the way I shape everything is different to Jerry's thing. I wouldn't use Jerry's brain to think the way I think because my brain and Jerry's brain and not the same brains. So it's a really good example of why the brain is there is it's a bit flawed because a lot of the things that I do are actually my body and Jerry's brain and my brain are different and therefore I come up to the top and I'm not going to stick with Jerry structure because I'm not it. I think the brain when you talk about global mind, the mind is all the way through the body, I guess is one of the points. And, Jerry, can you just share that last one that one about plans and things like that. I think that's probably useful. Which, which part this over here. That. Oh, sorry. Let me just show this one. No, this one's quite good as a pretext. So this. Yeah, this shows the shape of it all. So, it shows structured versus unstructured. So, just loose and everyone doing their own thing is fights. bureaucracy is highly structured, but it's not something that is diffused across the society God help us if it ever did markets don't seem to be working particularly well in a lot of different ways but people would say that they are or could. I don't see open global mind as a market. I just see it as a sort of clan of clans. That's what I see my open global mind as, and all the clans have got all the ideas and the people and they've got some intersections between them. But this article just shows you how you can structure knowledge and structure organization so each of them are institutions. And if you go back to the, if you go back to the graph, the table. Yeah. Yeah, that one. Okay, so we're not fives we don't want to be undiffused and we don't want to be unstructured because nothing will spread. And we don't want to be bureaucracies because they're impersonal and hierarchical and you have to follow everybody else's goals. And they don't share values that doesn't sound very sexy to me. So we're not being a market but relationships are important and we've got to share goals and you've got to share values. So that only leads one thing that we could possibly be in the diffusion structure piece and we are a bit unstructured at the moment. So I see somewhere between a clan and a market. So you've got a structure so you can coordinate across you share your goals. So values and lead beliefs. You're diffusing information so you've got to be up a little bit. So you want to put enough structure in what you do to be able to be closer to a market or something that's more than a clan but not quite a market. So it is, and narrative is at the heart of it all. So, if you want to be global, you've got to be able to share information that's the whole point. So you work out when you're doing it as stories you're doing it in abstractions if you're doing it in structures or whatever you're doing. Is there a difference between a clan and a tribe or those the same thing. I think a clan is, yeah clan and a tribe I think are pretty, pretty close to the same thing. And there's other ones like Snowden talks about crews. Okay, so crews are about 20 people. Clans can have more than 20 people in. But this is where numbers really count because you can't stay connected if you have too many people. So it talks about your structure. So you could, that's why I'm thinking clan of clan community of clans is what I'm thinking. So you've got a community of clans that are similar enough to be able to do stuff together. Because they share a lot of values but they're not exactly the same. And they're better at diffusing information because they've got, they've got shared values, and they're got similar goals, but they're not exactly the same. But if you assume that you got to markets is a little bit much of, there's a little bit too much of we don't stand for what you stand for, and you just want to make a lot of money or you just want to. You've got to share goals, you've got to share goals, and relationships are really important. So markets don't seem to be working. So there's only one of these four that to me seems to involve relationships. I mean, or to rely on relationships and as the Clans tribes. Everything else deprecates relationships in many ways or override or override. Yeah. So the diffusion bit, because clans is clans have got a unit size, they're smaller like 20s and 40s and things like that. You can keep your values close without having to, to make knowledge really abstract, because you're close, and you're having this conversation so that's those two levels, you're close enough in proximity so I'm not part of the American plan. Is there how many people here from America. You'll see. Okay Phil, where are you from. I'm America as well. I'm moving to London but I'm America sorry I had a different question asked for you to continue. Okay. Well, like, and Stacy I didn't see a hand. But you can stay away. Yeah, I'm not American, and I'm the only person who isn't here. And I know it's not time zones kill a lot of global things. They just do. If I respect myself I'm not getting up at four o'clock in the morning so I can actually say I respect myself now because I didn't get up at four o'clock in the morning. I could have but I chose not to always awake enough to be able to join this whole conversation. So you know just time zones will kill relationships, because I won't have had the same opportunities. So anyway, it feels like I'm ranting but that this max process is that's a really, really good article to stop working out how you're putting some structure around things. Because you've got to diffuse information you've got to share it that's what open and global mean, but you can't. It's really hard to be global if you don't share values and you don't share time zones and you've got so much structure that you have to work all the way out and all the way down like a bureaucracy to get an idea across. So you're in the perfect time to be able to make something that comes as close to a community of clans as I've seen. But you know what you do over the next few months, we'll see whether you can manage to get over that. Anyway, I feel like I've just taken over and I didn't mean to. These things that these the people that whole article, and this is just one but this one's actually a really good one because it's got lots of things like simulation in it and this guy's talking about China and cultural competence and of institutions is so is that's the whole that's a middle part and the whole thing is how to how does politics work globally. And how's China doing. Yes, that's the setting this is just the middle part of that whole thing. So he's talking about how knowledge is moving across the world, and who has what sorts of institutions to support their thinking, and they're sharing. And how's that working. And I'd say markets aren't working very well personally think markets are starting to collapse, but clans work quite nicely. Hello Bill. Let's go to Phil. Thank you very much Wendy that was that was enlightening for me. These are new concepts for me so I appreciate the dive into it. One thing I kind of come back to a lot and actually you brought this up. I forget if it was in your initial pitch or when we're talking about the pitch, but OGM as my silly or my silly, which I think is stronger than connector. Because it can respond to stimuli can kind of dictate where nutrients go for like different projects. In my mind. We're OGM is a container. It's a space it's a container for things to happen, but we ideally want to be like the action we're taking is that of my silly. I was actually going to ask you Wendy if there's any. So those, those are all societal structures. I was just curious if there's any delve into kind of organic structures and Okay, that's a good question. And so container. So if you think of it as a knowledge container. And I agree I'd never go on mechanistic metaphors because they just fail. They just don't work for me. I can't do it. So I think, you know, it's a venue so it's a place where things happen. So it's either a container that is empty that things happen inside, which is in the clean language world they use one of the organizations that uses itself metaphor. And that's from amphora which is container for metaphors, which is really quite nice. That's where the idea metaphor comes from amphora which means container. So that's why they use that word it's a very clever word they call it metaphor which is container for ideas and metaphors, which is a bit circular. But that's something that's been made as a container I don't know that the world has many containers. Most of the time they're placed in space and they name the space that they don't name the venue. Like jungle, I think of jungle as a place that's got things in that interconnect. And it's a bit wild, but it's still not a container it's a metaphor and it's a location for rich things. So that's your other alternative. So this is a difference between place and space a place has things that have culture and bits and pieces are connecting in the middle, and a space is a, is a vacuum. And nature doesn't do vacuums very well. It puts things in them. It just naturally vacuum. What was that. It abhors a vacuum. It does it allows things to come in all the time. So it was coming. It reminded me that I was reading up on Kenevan. And Kenevan was a book that Snowden came up with kind of as a competitive alternative to Nonaka's bar, which means a context that harbors meaning, which is a lovely phrase. Yeah. And Kenevan in Welsh is the place that that holds our, our belongings. It's pretty much the language that you're pointing to in both of those terms. Yeah, and it's cultural language as opposed to nature language. So it's imposition or by definition. So, but Kenevan, my family's Welsh actually but they they were on the rich side of Welsh and bought days around the poor side of Welsh and we know, we know each other personally. I agree that the cultural piece is always going to be there with it which with whatever words you use that come from culture. And you just have to have people getting agreeing that they like the meaning. And then just using the word. That's what that's what clean language negotiates these clean systems. It bounce off the word because it's an American word and it doesn't mean anything to me or a Welsh word or whatever. And as far as the shared context go, you know that layered diagram that had embodied at the bottom and abstract at the top. You can't get out of the embodied bit unless you have some sort of face to face shared context narrative is hard to use we're all talking in English. The shared context is zoom. And that's as good as it gets at the moment for all of us. So I should I know our shared context is not enough like you're going to. And if you don't know what the jungle is because you live in a desert. The main piece of this OGM quest is to discover invent prototype pioneer something or other a new shared context that is more palpable visual connective, something like that I don't know exactly even know how to say it, but I'm like, there's a there's a that will allow us to share these so that you don't have to hold up a sheet of paper and me share a PDF file and us share a bunch of little links in the chat, but rather we start weaving this thing actively together. We don't have it yet we're not there. So, yeah, that would be a good way of putting it and whatever you call it people will bump off straight away because they won't get that thing. They won't go from their own little embodied local thing into the bigger thing because they won't get what the thing is you can't name it in something. You know metaphors as close to it as you get that's why clean language is so important. It keeps people in a space together, while they learn to get each other. It's a huge struggle. It's a huge struggle. So is clean language important at the beginning of relationships but then naturally what happens when people enter relationships and build trust and context is that they develop shared metaphors and their language gets unclean. Well, it does to a certain extent but they've got they use the clean language as part of their piece so. So when you said results so you say to me, I want to result today and I'd say what sort of result is that result. And you'd say it's a result that's tangible. And I say I'm tangible and results and we'd start to get to you want to report. I'm thinking, okay, right. That's the result that you want from today's report. It might be minute minute meetings or whatever. To me, it might be if you were doing it to me I might say, what sort of result you might say what sort of result and I think it's a relationship is that I grok you. Oh, you know, not tell me more about grok because that's not quite the right words but what sort of grok is that grok. Well, you know, I'm, what's his name's book, you know, you know the book. Grok. Thank you. No, it's um, it is the water person the guy, the desert thing. The desert thing. It's where everybody's dying and when you die you get your water gets given to someone so your water brothers. I can't remember the name. So it comes from strange and strange land. Thank you. Which is high, which is high line. It is high line. Okay, so I grok you so I get you at some level where our shared context is is not as important because I get you so much that I will stay in this space until we work out what it is that we need to jointly work out. Different outcomes for you result is a bit of paper that I read. And for me, a grok is a relation result is a relationship. And if we don't get that straight at the very beginning. I'm about relationships you're about reports. We're going to fall apart. I'm already by saying what would you like to have happen you say I want to result. And I we explore what your result is, and we explore what my result is mine is a relationship and yours is a report. We're not going to be able to stick together because that is undiscussed. So for me, yeah, if you don't do that and this is what lorally does naturally. She's a matchmaker. So people like lorally and train and such, they won't declare what it is is result for each of us because then they know that we need to work out what that is and if we can't work that out together, then we should not stay matched, because it's just going to go badly. You're not going to work this all out in one meet meeting. You just, you won't but I think you write about a container. That's the whole. I call GM often a vessel or a container I've been using that a bunch with with this gesture. So is it's, it's the whole yin and yang thing without going into it. Are you a container. Yeah, your container where where things happen and and organizations get birth because they will probably insist on becoming their own thing. But if you were really good at clean language as an organization and had a shared metaphor, you could at least hang together long enough to be able to evolve to the next step because your report and my relationships thing would work its way out. You'd have a part that actually produces things that other people want broken as they are, or we'd at least stick together long enough to know what the relation you need to do to stick together as a group to be able to become the next thing. To that field but sorry you asked me a question it feels like I've given you several things, but there's no clean word for what we want. I can't think of a clean word it's everybody's version of container, whether it's a metaphor whether it's bar whether it's it's just a location. Yeah, one get one word that will do it and clean language sounds like a way of figuring out of describing the elephant and misappropriate a story. That's exactly one of the expert seeing elephant is one of the exercises they do that would be such good fun. If I could run this that in this group I would just be excellent I would be so fun because it's seeing elephant smell an elephant and everyone will come up with different versions of it and say oh wow is that the variety we have in the room, and you build something together which is not at all an elephant but has, you know, all sorts of aspects of it. You get a podcast up yet. Language, some clean language sessions just as that. It might keep us all together long enough to be able to do it, because otherwise just everyone splinters out it's just a natural thing there's nothing that keeps you together. Thank you. We're about to hit two hours on this call. I'm taking the temperature of the room see what's up. I'm off. Thanks everybody. Thank you. I'm thinking maybe we wrap the call because it's I'm, I'm, my back is sore I twisted a twinge my, my hip. It's been a few days ago and like it's feeling twin G right now. But I can't I'm really grateful for this call and Wendy thank you for waking up and joining us that was really magic you, you added a layer of rich, rich, sort of nutrient solution to the conversation and took us in new directions which are really good for us. It's also nice to hear here how you're thinking and what you're what you're focused on. I really want the best for GM and I just see these all this hope it builds and then it collapses, because people just can't stay together. And I don't want that, you know you're too smart and too, too lovely and I've just see it building collapse building collapse so I don't want that. Thank you for that wish that's that's beautifully stated. Well, it sounds negative but I don't want it to be negative is some other ebbs there ebbs and flows to sort of everything in a sense and and and if we can harness the ebbs and flows we can actually use that energy. There's a, there's a thing I there's a thing I like called polarity management which is instead of instead of facing a binary problem as as like a choice you have to make that'll get rid of half the people in the room, treated as axes within which you swing back and forth intentionally and then you make everybody happy, maybe, and get things done better. And that's that learning piece of what happens. If you look at the bottom it's sort of like, where are we all this is not so great. And the narrative is talking about what's what you can learn from it, and then you go to the top part and then you come back and you take that as energy into your next thing and then you build up to a new narrative. And then you take that to a new, oh gosh is that where we're at. And you just go back and take that whole energy back in again. So that's boss those thing again. You know it's like what do we learn from this. So what was the originator of ice base, which was stimulus and context for can even so can even builds on ice base. So that's exactly, that's why I've been reading about it a lot this last week. And it's not because independent of can even is because you guys use ontologies and things like that as part of a wiki as part of a brain. And if you can actually name those things, and you don't have a culture for understanding how to keep them clean because you can't do a massive wiki. I tried yesterday and I got stuck at the first step. I'm thinking, Oh, how do I structure this. And then I went back into ontologies and I'm thinking I knew this at the beginning. Once you've done a doctor, you know, I'm not saying it's the only way of knowing it but finding that structure to put your knowledge in is a first step, and you almost can't survive the first step because you've got to put a structure and you don't know why it exists this way. So brief story. 23 and some month years ago. I started using the brain and the inventor said why don't you just start with your name as the central thought and then put business and personal under that, and then go from there and I was at the time I was a tech industry trends analyst. So under business I started putting technology categories and all that. And it was a crappy bad ontology, but I never ever go back to that little region of my brain. And from there I just started evolving local structure that always works at the local screen full, and I was always actively curating as I went, so I was always improving whatever I touched, as I was cruising on adding new stuff, you know, looking up old stuff things like that. And that approaches work great. Had I stopped to try to create the perfect ontology for that knowledge base, I probably would have killed myself, I probably would never have gotten done and I probably would not have gotten addicted to the tool. Yeah. So it's got it's got an emergent property that I really, really like that way. And you've got to survive using that tool you have to not jump off into something else and say something else is going to be better. That's what ontologies are their personal. Right. And you evolve that over 30 years but you've got to stick together as an organization, all your other things that you want to work with you've got to stick together an awful long time, working together because that's you creating your tool. This isn't two people creating one tool. And that's really important. So that the joint creation of shared context is a huge thing right in front of us, because we're interested in a space that allows each of us to preserve our own opinion and point of view into the space. But it would be really nice if we could crystallize and agree on this piece and this piece over here so that we don't end up being this explosive recursively explosive knowledge space where nothing actually makes sense because everybody has their own full expression in their own language but rather, we begin to agree on chunks and pieces that turn into policy frameworks that turn into action items etc. Yeah, that's exactly it. And so it's great because you're such it's so good that you're in the room Jerry because you've curated your own thing over such a long period of time just like Mark Carranza has done his own poetry for like 30 years. It means 1984. It makes you look at that and it's beautiful, but I'm not Mark. I look at Mark's output and I can't figure it out. I don't know what he's writing. No, but that's what will happen if we can't because you're not going to get a shared ontology. I was looking at one which was, what is it? Purdent and I don't know. It means things that are enduring endurance and perjurance. So perjurance supposed to be time stamped and endurance is things like rocks that continue to exist. And there are a lot of cultures that just don't talk about time in that way circular z shaped or whatever it is. So it's, it doesn't make any sense and they're just two words, two categories. And that's those those are used as the basis of lots of other ontologies in. That's I know it's a big word it's just being that's all the word is being. It's in all sorts of IT things how you classify things and so at the very beginning and if, if people don't agree with that, from a cultural perspective everything that comes out of it is going to be flawed. And it's just two words, something that endures something that stamp in stamp in time. I love that I've never heard it. Some words don't. What's the example. Somebody said I've got no future tense in their particular language. Yes. It's not the whole thing. It came from a Ted talk but anyway, so this guy, the guy was saying well that's the oh I know it's some. Yeah it's a Ted talk about sense of time. You know the six different versions of the ways in which people look at time. These are not just esoteric things. If I don't agree with time, then I'm not going to produce the same thing at the same thing you say soon soon for me could be in three weeks and soon for you can be in tomorrow. It's like right at the very beginning, and that seeded all the way through all the knowledge structures everyone assumes it. What sort of time is your time. My time is six months time and your time is tomorrow. Well that's going to work well. Exactly. I feel wants to say something I saw that handle Phil has to leave he just typed into the chat. Next time I see I'll be, I'll be UK based. Are you from the UK. My parents are Irish, but I'm moving to London for a part time masters at LSE. That's cool. I wish I knew so much better. Thanks. Thanks everyone. Thank you. We should start wrapping this call any anyone else want to just add something by way of putting a bow on the conversation or a marker. I think maybe we, you know, I want to come back back to this. Build as a one shot. And I know I had something to do with with taking it into other directions and getting back to the practical. I mean, not that everything we're saying isn't isn't in some way practical, but getting back to that. So what is OGM. Question seems like it would be a good thing. And I'm recording this and I will share the recording on the matter most, etc. So, Bill, did you want to jump in? Yes, so Wendy I'm sorry I didn't hear all of what you had to say it was. We had our farm to house delivery we had to unpack all the goodies. And this thing reminded me there's something I used to be involved with the tapestock psychodynamic group dynamics workshops. And one of the things they were just couch show it would be like residential you go away for a week and you're assigned to a group to learn about leadership and authority with groups that have no leaders. You know, basically, they used to say, don't come if you really need, you know, if you need psychological help don't come we're not going to offer it. It's going to be a pressure cooker. But the thing they did they just arranged these things as learning institutions so they, you know, they just put a boundary here's what the container we're creating here is for learning and we're going to do it in the following ways. And there's something Wendy said and we all talk about containers it's like maybe part of OGM is having containers for certain activities or I don't just I don't know I don't really not really clean but there was something about really, you know, it's like, I was a member of a Buddhist Peace Fellowship on the board for a long time when the first Gulf War was going on. And the woman we were having a board meeting and she said okay. The news is bad. We're going to use magic. She said okay everybody like a stick of incense over here. We're going to chant these three things we're going to go then we're going to scream at the top of our lungs. You said you know I'm going to put a boundary around this thing and we're going to do this, and then we're going to come back into our business. And that and it strikes me dancing for humans is like that because you can, there's a boundary the song ends but in the song. Yeah, it can be really wild. I love what you're saying. A friend of mine, he's American Afro American, and he uses drumming. But that's that's to help people access flow state. And it's about creating the sound creates an environment that allows people to work at a different level, just like dance does, and that's the embodied piece but we don't have at the moment. A lot of that ability because we're not co-president we're not physically with each other. So my embodied thing and your embodied thing if we put it do drumming at the moment it wouldn't have the same resonance is happening over the internet. It doesn't actually affect my insides in the same way because the acoustics is different. You know I've got flat bill and flat and flat Jerry on on the screen and Jerry you know I know I know but you've got real dimensions. I keep my camera like laptop at an angle on purpose so that I'm not just like you know in front of a 2D space. And I've got real plants behind me, not that they're lit up or anything you can see how well I did my lighting this morning, not. So we've got to be able to keep this dimensional this embodiment piece so we're actually in the moment in flow with each other in a rich way. And that's that's something that I say open global mind might want to go to not best of you know what we like to have happen I want to be an environment so I feel like I really am with you. Intellectually and and emotionally and we can then put a barrier around the crappy bit and then go to business I agree with you Michael. The only reason I'm saying these are certain things is that I hang around with people like Dave Snowden at retreats drinking wine. I have had I've stayed in the same house with Dave and been to business meetings where they suddenly realized that I was the fly on the wall and I needed to sign a non disclosure agreement. I'm thinking, okay. I'm now part of the business meeting for something I never expected to be part of because I'm sleeping in the bedroom next to Dave. It's like, okay, well this is here. We were driving. He was driving the car. Don't share this with anyone back from the retreat where we had had wine and food together and the most amazing conversations, which is a retreat for a reason was to get us all in the same zone to talk about design and. I can't remember what the topic of that retreat was it was whistler. It wasn't last year but it was the year before everything collapsed and I'm so glad I went. But anyway, he was driving his back and he was tired or whatever. And we just about got cleaned up by another car site. I almost died because of Dave's driving in that instant. That's a story. We were in a confined space but we were there because we went to a retreat. So the only reason I can tell that restore it was because there was an intent to get lots of fun months together in one location to drink wine, have food together, have lots of random and structured and semi structured conversations. We can't do that. I will never meet you. Most of you face to face, ever. I managed to get my retreats back in order we might actually pull it off. I can't afford to go to any of them. I shouldn't have afforded to go to that one. And so that's part of the other thing is to we have to be realistic is that, you know, I'm from Australia and I, it was really the end of everything that I did, you know, financially but I'm so glad I went to that event it was a source of so many good things. But I couldn't. They were happening all over the world a friend of mine who is in Canberra, he went to six of part of them in like a year. I don't have pockets that deep, but I went to the one, and it gave me all these other good things. But we don't have venues like that at the moment. I mean I could come to Pacific. Maybe when I'm allowed out of Australia. I know, I know, I just want to throw one thing out yesterday Pete and I got together to work on an architecture diagram. We were in opposite sides of the zoom. We had one diagram in front of us. Pete was typing and we actually were in working on throwing out ideas to each other, changing things, seeing how to work. So there was something akin to actually being more present and actively negotiating while we were trying to create, you know, an architecture diagram for the massive. So I think something can happen in a small, a little way with, you know, the kind of technologies we have in these shared spaces. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it does happen. So I was writing neuroscience articles for an organization called frontline mind to brilliant people. Yeah, so frontline mind. And I was recruited. That's an amazing story to how I became part of that for just a little bit of time. So anyway, the idea was to write a course for students engineering students at Melbourne University to help keep them was based on the Canadian framework Dave Stone's work in natural language. Neuro linguistic programming NLP. And these two guys are brilliant. And we were writing these articles that I've done all the research with another guy but a lot of it was my own. And then one guy's a filmmaker and the other guy, both of them are NLP practitioners who've worked with with Grinder and everyone right at the very beginning. And we've got like 1015 years worth of experiences communicators, and then we come on to this document, and they zoom in and they're thinking well we need this metaphor we need that cartoon, the wording for this should change. Put that at the bottom all four of us were doing it at once was an incredible experience it really was. And it then became a most became the production value was huge. And it's like, okay, this is now no longer mine. I felt that transition, but I knew that it was better because it was no longer mine. And I could still see in the end part things that wouldn't have been there if I hadn't have put my hand up and said, This needs to be there these words, this article whatever it was. So you're right. I've seen it on my row. When people are organizing things mean me row. Sorry. I didn't understand what you said and I'm like, oh right. It's okay. I don't really want to say it is good. I first I didn't get it at all. Yeah, see that's just an example of us not you know the clean language part. It's like, we could easily not have clarified that. So I've seen it and I read a lot about flowing through Steven Kotler's work and she's saying, you know, Mahali whatever is I can't ever say his name every now I practice it can get it right for a while. You know, this flow state if we can get into a flow state and have something as interactive enough. That's as good as we're going to get at the moment. So you've got to have sleep. You've got to be not hungry or thirsty. You're going to be sitting somewhere comfortable and you've got to have tools that you all understand how to use. And they've got to get you in an immersion state and you've got to have the clean language and bits and pieces, so that at least our words and negotiated. Remember results relationships results paper. What do we want at the end of this. So if I if I got any of you if any of you wanted to join me. I need this sort of stuff is really important. I can't emphasize it Dave process that he reads these things he talks about them in story, but I can guarantee you he reads them and books and such you can't just go into doing this stuff without having that level of knowledge. And I'm my reading list is so vast at this point that I'm trying to figure out how do we each summarize works for one another, and they know has a lovely with how summarizing is a terrible thing and you should be as close to the data as you can. But I think he means that in specific circumstances but how might we together make sense out of these large works so that we can actually access the wisdom that's in them because I don't. I don't have time to read all of Jared diamonds writing in order to critique why I don't like his later works and I do like his early works, but I just I just have that instinct it's like from the pieces I've seen and pieces I've done, but we have all these huge pieces ahead of us to make sense out of which takes us to yesterday's call, which was what is sense making. Go ahead Bill. I'd love to have been part of that again. I can send you a link to the YouTube recording. It's on YouTube publicly. That will be lovely that will eat up far too much of my day but it's totally I just wanted to say that this is now that Wendy's here but this is what I'm trying to do with this massive wiki I've created for myself is to take what I'm reading. Find what jumps out for me, put it into some kind of a note in, I'm using obsidian because I like the linking. And then this I'm going to just do the work of adding the context about why did I select this thing. What is it about this that actually made me go whoa, this is really worth doing all the work I had to do to cut paste type correct blah blah. And I think that's one way if we could share some of that that we could share. I don't know. Years ago I went to a South by Southwest, you know, and it was filled with the talks and I don't know Michael might have heard this but I decided I wasn't going to take notes. I was going to create haiku. I just sat there with my computer, and I just waited till sometime during the person's talk, a phrase popped out. I wrote it down. I put in a few other phrases and later I created these like haiku of these talks, which even to today when I read them, I can have a sense of what I was feeling when I was in the talk, most of the content of the talk is not there. I'm not thinking about maybe if we could practice. I don't, you know, I don't know there's some way of trying to just get something to share that the bird came up earlier is evocative and some value. Yeah, it's so much to share. So narrative I went with narrative and text analytics around narrative. I can show you. I've done visualizations that are things simple things like simple, simple. So digital rights as in my bank account needs to be available to the world. Okay. You know analysis of 30, 30 submissions to an Australian entity that's saying is this or a good thing or a bad thing. Inside 30 minutes created a visualization across those 30 documents that actually meant something that you could go all the way through into the documents to find those things. So I can do those, and they're big bits of knowledge but it's in the end it's an image that you can go into and out of. Now that's leximate so it's a good tool I know how to use it. So I can do this across, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of articles. And it's a version of haiku but the haiku is you embodied. It's that bottom layer, which is good. And the other is an abstraction of 30 large very, very, very long complicated documents that was separated into banking and industry and other things. But to be able to negotiate what that top artifact means, you've got to be in a conversation that's that narrative part. So haiku is good because it will mean you go back to yourself at that event, but I can't go back to you at that event. You can explain it, and we can come up to some level of what your haiku was so using it as a boundary object. So haiku was a direct access to you, Bill, at that event, but it's not my access it can't mean anything to me because I weren't there wasn't my haiku. But you need to be able to do the tiny thing inside the large thing. And the tiny thing inside the large thing is what I was doing with the software, but it's still not my experience if I could do that over all the haikus and the haiku was so perfect. So if you want to do poetry, it's like, let's negotiate the meaning of these two words, this one word, why this full stop, and then they'll spend centuries talking about why this full stop. That doesn't make the world move very fast. It gives people a rich experience of a white, why they put a comma in that comma in that place or a full stop or why that was a new line or this word that that stop things. So we need to be able to do this big and back and we need to have a joint experience of what that is. Totally. Yeah, while sharing each other's flow. And sharing others flow and everyone's going to have to go because you've been here for hours and I haven't and so I feel like I've chased you all away. And Michael like I hardly even know you and I've only met Bill once and Jerry, I think this is maybe our second meeting or something like that. I'm not familiar but I mean I've watched you I watched you on the Design by Trust thing I agree. I do I've been involved in big design projects for rail lines and things like that. I do this stuff. I know how much the engineers miss each other over standards and such and they just don't know that that standard exists. I'll be designing rock walls at the local scout group. I didn't know about four standards on bouldering that I should have learned about. Now I have to go back and find out about them. I know artificial climbing walls they had the Olympics yesterday on the event I don't know who won. But you know these are big documents and you don't even know they exist at the beginning. But I don't have access to the standards unless I do something that I really don't want to do. So, you know, it's just like I need someone to tell me I needed those other four standards and now I can buy them or not. So yeah, a little enlarge but you know we've got to pay attention and if anyone can help if anyone's willing to talk through these things with me will mean that I'm a better advisor to the group and I don't feel like I'm imposing. I thought what I did before was rude and I apologize. No worries. I just I'm enthusiastic because I know how important it is. The whole Kinevan frameworks built on something like that. That's a good thing to hang your hat off is not just ran some random person saying you should do this. With that, I'm going to bottle this magic and take us out of this call. Wendy, thank you for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody else. I don't know anything about factor and I feel like I really should check it out. It's connected to the message of wiki isn't everything. Well, I'm not connected to you at all. Yeah, so I don't know what factor does and I feel like I should know what factor does. There's a solvable problem. Bill, can we work a little bit I want to see what you've created on your thing, because it gives me a bit of courage to work out whether I'm, I'm just going to throw ontologies up in the air. We're going to make we'll just make some ontological commitments and you know move on it's turtles all the way down. Anyway, I got a really open global standards. Yeah, that's it open global standards. We should we should book. Thanks everybody.