 Hello everyone and welcome to Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. I'm Doug O'Keefe, the host and producer of the chats, which are a program of the Leather Archives and Museum. Today I'm doing a wonderful interview with Lee Harrington, who is an author, educator, and instigator in the community. So why are you an instigator? I was given that title years ago because I have multiple BDSM and Leather events that have told me you are welcome to show up at our events anytime because we know that you will instigate trouble in the best possible ways. And so I decided to claim that as a gifted title because I found it delightful and hilarious. Well, what kind of trouble do they want you to start? Anywhere from creating interesting scenes that people might enjoy to be in the dungeon, to helping people have conversations that might not have happened otherwise, to getting to facilitate rituals and communal experiences that help us all get, I don't know, a little bit closer to each other. So what kind of trouble did they want you to instigate? So it really depends. Anything from really heartfelt rituals to connecting opportunities and starting social space kind of experiences to just creating very strange unusual and fun scenes in the dungeon that get the party started. Can you give me an example of some of these things? Sure. At Dark Odyssey, I had a chant, which is a BDSM and kink conference that originally started out under the name of the Weakened Leather Retreat. It has since morphed since then back in the 90s. And they had let me create a ritual called the rites of Dionysus, where we brought together 100 people to all drink wine and tell tales of delight and debauchery and see each other in this moment of mysticism, beauty, and just getting a little bit shit-faced all at the same time. Because seriously, sometimes, I mean, you've been part of leather communities. Sometimes the magic happens when we're willing to let our shoulders down, which of course has led us to have some challenges around alcoholism and other such issues in our community. But, you know, you got that on one side to doing a BDSM scene to an event that I was led in free to, where I was in ballet boots, balancing, standing on someone else being hit by a third person. And people were like, oh, that was a really great performance in a show. And I'm like, that was just me playing because people give me chances for free to come in and have fun. How amazing. I feel so honored. Yeah, it's one of the delights in having gotten to be part of these communities for the last 25 years is for better or worse, people start having opinions and thoughts about each other, right? Actually, people start doing that on day one in some situations. And which I'm not a big fan of, but it is part of human nature at times. And sexuality communities, because the last time a lot of us had these kinds of endorphins running and hormones presenting themselves were when we were in high school dealing with puberty for the first time. And so the fact that our brains default to some of those behaviors doesn't really surprise me. I would agree. I would. Let's take a little bit of a step to the other side, though. You've told me that you're the Mr. Rogers of the community. Now, what in the world do you mean by that? I was at an event, a rope bondage event called Ropecraft. And I had just done a one day intensive on helping people create deeper bonds and communication using their rope bondage. And then also taught a couple of other smaller individual classes. And I was outside of the social area in the smoking section. And somebody came up to me and said, why do you always have to make all your education so accessible? You're always so nice. You're the Mr. Rogers of the BDSM and kink community. And again, like instigator, there were enough people around who laughed and delighted that I'm like, I accept and I have enough sweaters that I feel like I can live up to this title. Well, that's quite noble, really. The sweater collection. Well, I think the whole picture there. It was a really beautiful event in the history of rope communities that spun out of the leather community, because there used to be an event Shabari Khan same weekend as international Mr. Leather that ended in a really, in a way that was really traumatic to that community because of a lot of fiscal realities and a lot of personalities that that interacted with how that event Shabari Khan ended. And so when there was finally events like ropecraft or like bound together, or together together, or any of those sorts of things that finally grew out of those ashes, it was actually a really big deal in some of those parts of community, because there was a real fear that when you lose a linchpin event that's been there for however long, that you're going to lose an entire segment of community too. So that event was actually in some ways a really big deal, because it was a community saying we're not giving up just because our biggest event is gone. Tell me a little more about that. How did the community manage it? So part of it was that Shabari Khan was the first international rope bondage conference that happened. And it was like I said, based on international Mr. Leather weekend in a different part of the Chicagoland area. And I think the big piece of what happened out of it is that because that started back in three, I want to say, was that because of its existence, it created social networks worldwide. And because when you actually create instead of just saying it's an international event, right, when international Mr. Leather went from being its international meant there's Canadians here to having actual folks coming over from South Africa and Germany, and you know, and everywhere else, because that happened finally in the rope bondage community, instead of being there's a community in Japan, there's random people all over the place, other places, that event finally created an actual international network. And it survived because of dissemination of center, that instead of having only one place people came to, suddenly there was space in the garden for the rest of the flowers to grow when you removed the rose bush. So people are actually pursuing this in some different angles in different locations. It's what you're trying to say. Absolutely. Yeah, because now you've got events like queer rope based out of the folks out of Germany and at Carada House. You've got events in St. Petersburg, you've got events in various parts of Japan across North America, and even a thriving rope bondage community now in Brazil and in Portugal. Oh, wow. Okay. I was not aware of that. That's fascinating. I love the fact that this thing that gets called leather and this thing that gets called kink and kink communities, they might have started out in centralized spaces, like the fact that Chicago, you know, Leather Archives and Museum is in Chicago, but the tag line is, but serving the world. Yes. Right. It's when those tag lines start being their actual thing is when we go from the mythology of who we say we are to building an actual living, breathing entity that we are part of. And some of it's really symbiotic. The number of groups and people I can think of who, you know, one artist draws some cartoons, another person over in the United States is inspired to start their sexuality. And that third person over there has their life change because they met person number two. So I think when we have individual erotic evolutions, we don't always remember that there's going to be ripple effects. And those ripple effects can be so powerful and beautiful. I don't think a lot of people really consider that. I'm a bit of a nerd. I'll just I name it, because there's some people's nerdiness is around, say, mathematics or around building, you know, model rockets or, you know, their nerdiness around cross stitching, right? Everybody's got their nerd things. But in the kink and leather communities, especially in the leather community, I think there's those of us who are nerds about these topics in on a really meta level, right? People who I know who will deconstruct and reconstruct awareness around master-slave relationships or, you know, pre-agreed to authority transfer dynamics, right? People who will like, that's their thing. And they've been thinking about it for 60 years. And I will sit next to that person with a cup of tea and lap that up, right? Because I am one of those people when it comes to looking at meta systems of our relationships and sexuality, because I've been so blessed in my journey since the, you know, 90s of getting to see how these ripples affect each other. And I just I find it fascinating. Absolutely. I would agree. I also wouldn't be hosting this chat series, right? Hey, you've got a point. But let's take a step another direction. Tell me a little bit about where you're from. So I was born in the greater Boston area. And in the end of growing up predominantly, I've lived all over the world, but I grew up predominantly in the greater Seattle area when it comes to eventually getting involved with sexuality communities. And I got involved in the scene itself. My first public play party was in 1996 at Beyond the Edge Cafe in Seattle, Washington that was produced by a woman named Elena Gabos, who has since passed. But ask anyone she has been, again, think about those linchpins of community she transformed this community radically, you know, all around the world, especially in the Seattle area. And that was my first time getting to go to a public play party. But I've been playing privately since I was a kid with myself, because there's a lot of us who can trace our erotic lineages of self identity back to the playground or whatever it might be. And also my first MS relationship had started back in 94. So I had a couple of years of exploration before getting into the public scene. But before going too far down that road, when you were young, you were subjected to counseling to try to correct your behavior. Tell us a little about that. No, I wouldn't use any of that language, actually. I mean counseling, yes. So what you're alluded to is my gender history. For folks who don't know, I was a science female at birth. And my first book in the Kent community was published under my former name. And when I was a youth, I decided back when I was with my very first master, I was still a youth and are still my youth, but younger and still living with my mother. And my first master said, well, is it possible that you're transgender because all of the flags you're giving me are leather boy, leather boy, leather boy, right? And this was back in the 90s and so language about female leather boys was not as prevalent. But even without that, everything I was coding to him was was masculine, or at least was male. And I said, well, I can't be transgender because I'm not a man who wears dresses. And at the time, all we had was the Mori Pogut show or, you know, Jerry Springer or things like that. For me, when it comes to exposure of transgender experience. And so I went to my mother and I said, Hey, mom, I think this might be a thing. And she said, Well, let's have you see a therapist. She was not forcing me to. She loved me no matter what she actually immediately said, Well, what do you want me to call you at home? I was very blessed by that relationship. Absolutely. But but my therapist at the time this was mid 90s. And after seeing her for a while, my therapist summarized it as, you know, she said, you're not dysphoric about your lower body. And I'm like, I'm a sexual bottom mostly. Right? Like I'm a verse bottom. So for me, more horrible holds the merrier, right? And she said, Yeah, and you like wearing women's clothing on occasion. And in my head, nowadays, I look back and I'm like, Yeah, because I'm a drag queen. Women's clothing is fun. It's dress up time. And she said, and you're predominantly sexually attracted to men. And I said, I like people of multiple genders, like nowadays, I use the word queer. But I didn't have that language at the time. And I said, So, but if you had to make me choose a gender, yes, I am attracted to men. Okay. And this was in the times, it was a very different time when it comes to transgender rights. And at the time, there was a thing called the Benjamin standards that said, if you're not going to become a normal person and blend into the background and vanish, we're not going to approve you for medical care. And her literal words, and I'm going to use a moment of derogatory language, her literal words were, Why do you think we'll approve the creation of a fag? And when you're 16 and have your therapist say that to you, that's, that's tough. And the, the beautiful thing that came out of that denial of that part of identity and experience was that I swung pretty much as far as you can to the other side of the spectrum and it become a fetish model, fetish model, and then an adult film actress and all of that kind of stuff and got to explore and be parts of leather and community that I would never have gotten to if I've actually transitioned. I had the chance of being part of bad girls of Portland, which is a, you know, women who love women leather group out of that area. And if I had been a guy, I could never have gotten to do that. And that's not to say that somehow fool people. It was chapter of my life that I am grateful to have gotten to have large chunks of it. Tell us more about that, because I think it's, it's very unique what you're depicting and something that I think a lot of people would probably benefit from learning about just in general being transgender, being transgender in the scene. Or would you like me to start? More, more going into the scene and being able to do the porn work and things like that. Yeah. Yeah. So I, in 99, I moved to London, England to finish up my university degree. And I, my second master lived there. My first master was very classical American leather filtered, unfortunately, through some lenses of abuse. But that that style of when people think old guard leather, they are painting a mythology of some of the pieces that I lived when I was in with my first master. And my second one was from England. I had met him when I was traveling through Europe. And eventually for my senior year decided I'm going to go do my senior year over in London, we could be closer together and then decide are we, the plan had been, are we either going to get, have me become full time collards slash get married to him. And because green cards, they're useful, right. And so I ended up over there, there was an incredibly disappointing breakup and a lot of heartache. And I ended up meeting someone along the way after, you know, a lot of trauma and challenge, who was, was a whip maker kind of in Alexander Jacob. And we met at a play party in London, where there was literally a sign up that said caning competition tonight at midnight. And since I was recovering from a breakup, I had a very dear friend of mine who did what dear friends do, which was push me into the room where the party was happening. Alex and I got matched up. And he was just like, wow, we're a really great chemistry. I'm looking for somebody to do whip bottoming for me. And I at the time had a very high pain tolerance. I was known for doing like lots of heavy end scenes on a regular basis. And I was like, yeah, let me get this straight. I'm a college girl. You're offering me a chunk of money. And all I have to do is be on front of a camera on doing a thing I love done. How is there any, you know, any question about this? Of course, this is what I am doing. And it led to me starting up a career doing things that I loved getting tied up tying other people up, having great queer sex on camera, getting to be parts of community that are a different slice than what you find in a bar culture. Because there is, you know, in the porn production world, you've got people who are classical porn producers who go, oh, this is some kinky stuff that we had requested by fans, I guess we'll shoot it. We'll find a woman who's willing to do it, right? You've got that segment. You've got the pro dom segment of people who are creating things because of content content desires on the part of their clients. Right. For a while, I was shooting a lot of sweater bondage, for example, I would have this guy who would send me 10 sweaters a month, I would wear them and put them on other people, we would tie each other up while wearing sweaters. And he would pay me like, right, like those kinds of individuals, that passion for a, not just a fetish, but a niche fetish that has a vision and is so fascinating to me, right? Like when I meet folks who have those nuances, it's amazing. And that that porn community had a space in the form of its clients to have some of their voices heard for people that would never have showed up at, you know, a bar night or a munch or whatever, because they had this outline, you know, this outlet in the pornography world. There were also people who were shooting kink specific content, and that's what they were doing for their production period. I think, for example, about the folks at kink.com and Peter Ackworth and that team of people that slowly crafted culture into through a lot of hits and misses and people being hurt, honestly, emotionally and physically in different parts of the industry that led to creating a world where there's now more feminist informed, you know, people being well paid insurance available on site kind of work that didn't exist before then. So I feel really honored to have gotten to be part of this window of time that was 99 2007. And I ended up leaving the industry because back in 2007, there wasn't much call for transgender men in pornography. There isn't in 2022, there is now a genre of that. There was not 15 years ago. And so I ended up transitioning out of that because I decided to medically transition. How absolutely fascinating. Some of that I would have never known. I think it's like if people have a chance to look into some of the histories of various dominatrixes across the United States, I mean, you've entered talk to Mr. Sayan, I believe. Yes. Yeah. And getting to hear some of her stories, I strongly and if you're coming from places other than those communities, I find a lot of people have myths about porn and professional domination that aren't really encouraged people to look at some of those other interviews. Absolutely. It's an absolutely multi-layered and very complicated. Yeah. Absolutely. But I recall when we prepared for this that you said you're a fourth generation kinkster. Tell us about that. Yeah. So my mother was a corset fetishist. She has since passed. I was a corset fetishist and spanko. And when I was first in the scene, I tried my best to like, I'm like, oh, I know my mom's vaguely kinky because I found both of my parents, you know, porn collections when I was very young. And that's how I decided I was kinky actually, not because of the actual activities, but because it was the first porn I'd seen out there that had people like actually supporting each other's dreams and desires and negotiating for what they wanted. I was like, oh, that's a thing you can do. And that really struck me when I was really young. But yeah, my mother was a corset or a spank person. Her mother was a swinger. And then on the other side of my family, my father's mother was a fetish model back in the 1920s. And I only know that because when I was very young, I was like eight or nine years old, I was visiting her right before she passed away. And she said, oh, I was a wild child. I was even a model for Charles Gayette. And I thought nothing of this until I went to a lecture on the history of BDS7 kink and leather. And I went, oh, Charles Gayette, you mean the fetish photographer in the 1920s through 40s? Huh. And I think that was a photograph of my grandmother, my great grandmother. Interesting. And I love seeing the different ways that different multi-generational kinksters navigate these things. For me, one of my iconic moments was the Mr. and Ms. Oregon leather competition. I was moving from one part of Portland, Oregon to another at the time. And my mom, who lived in the Seattle area, was like, oh, I'll drive down and help you move. I'm like, that's great, mom. But to let you know, Saturday, I'm going to be busy. And she said, well, what are you busy doing? And I'm like, I'm going to this leather competition. And she just looks at me and goes, I haven't been to a leather bar in over 20 years. And I'm like, do you want to go with? And she's like, yes, thank you for asking. And so, like I said, of course, it fetishes. She had white hair that came down, you know, almost to her waist. And we got her in a long, brought down one of her long satin skirts, got her into a brocade corset that I tightened her down into. I was in dressed in leathers. And we showed up together. And I swear, like a pod of butch dykes, just like, swam out of the crowd and grabbed my mother and left. And I was like, and I went on with my night, right? Because my mother was a grown woman. She could do what, you know, like go have fun. And later that night, one of the women came up to me and said, where do you know Bonnie from? She's wonderful. And I'm like, she gave birth to me. She is wonderful. And this woman was just like, I'm so sorry, I've been cruising your mom. And I'm like, cruise my mom. She's bye. Have fun. Like, if she wants to get laid, that's her business, like go. But there's for people who haven't danced the dance of seeing their family members as complex, whole sexual beings unto themselves that are not their story is not about you. It's them living their life. I imagine that was probably pretty jarring for that butch. I should think it would be for me. That is astounding. How did you do this often with your mother? No, I think we went to like three or four events together. One of the reasons we didn't was because this was in my period of doing adult film work. And I had folks who sometimes came up to me and started having inappropriate conversations. And there was this guy who came up to it and we were at a kinky vending event because my mother was just like, I was saying, oh, you're looking to get a new course at mom. Do you want to go to this event in Seattle? And she's like, yeah, that sounds great. Let's go. Wandering around and this guy wanders up and says, oh my God, I just saw that video you were in. And I'm like, hey, guy, I don't really know. This is my mother. Can we not talk about this? And he's like, yeah, yeah, mommy play. I know you do all that age play stuff anyway. And he's talking about this anal sex video. And I'm just like, no, no, this is my mother. And he's like, yeah, anyway. And like, even though he was clearly even though I was asking, no, please stop talking. It's that he just kept going. And my mother, bless her heart and memory, just looked at me and touched me on the shoulder and said, I'll be over there when you're done with this. And so I think that and we weren't necessarily fountains of going to get there to places. It was simply a, this is a thing we're both interested in. And these were the types of events that that sort of thing shouldn't have happened that. In our dynamic, there was no interest in ever being at the same play party or seeing each other do stuff. I have friends of mine who are in multi generational or across directional lines that that's not an issue or is even fun. I've met a mother daughter pro nom team, for example, they're just like, yeah, of course, we'll play in the same space together as long as it's non sexual. And other people who are just like, it's sex who cares for both grown adults. My mother and I weren't that we were very much of the, if we happen to be there, cool, but not the same play party kind of approach. And she was a far more private player than than I am. I'm, I'm a bit of a, you know, exhibitionist as it were, and photophiliac. You've mentioned the other mother daughter thing. And then, of course, you have your relationship with your mother nature, nurture, what are your thoughts on that? So I personally think that it's a bit of both, that there are those of us whose family lines are prone towards adventure and excitement. And so even people who haven't met their siblings separated by birth, maybe you don't all do the same thing, but one of you is a rock climber and one of you does bungee jumping, right? Cause you're both adrenaline seeking type people. And I think there's a piece of that for me that's very much nature. Because if I look at other parts of my family that aren't necessarily in communities, there's, there is a lot of that, you know, adventure seeking and new experience exploring behavior on both sides of my family. And if you're then applying that to sexuality, if you take, you know, creativity and desire for new experiences and curiosity and openness to step outside of societal norms, when you add those up as being familial traits, I think that contributes to. Okay. Very good. Now, you mentioned that you navigate different elements of immunity. What do you mean by that? So I joke about the fact that I'm professionally trans and professionally kinky. And what I mean by that is that I get paid by universities to show up and talk about BDSM. Like that's part of my career, my full time living. I've been really honored that I've been publishing books on adventurous sexuality since my first one came out in 06. And I have 10 books with my name on the cover at this point, which is so surreal to me sometimes. And because of that, I have gotten to kind of traverse the kink communities in ways that other people don't have to necessarily, because when your career is also your home, whatever it is, right, whether you're whatever your passion is, when you are part of that group of people that this is that this is a dual locational experience, it creates different kinds of connections and relationship. And I'm a big believer in naming power dynamics that are present in interpersonal relationships. So whether that is race or socioeconomic class or socioeconomics or experience level, right? If you were to meet somebody who's been into kink for two weeks, didn't even hear about anything other than seeing a Bugs Bunny cartoon when they were growing up, or Wonder Woman, right? Like, if you're meeting somebody who's been into this for that length of time, there is a power imbalance that's at play. And so I have come to realize that my and really acknowledge that there's a difference for me when it comes to not just experience level and places that I have exposure to, like that I can get into events for free sometimes, right? Like that kind of thing. But also when it is my career, acknowledge that it comes with a hat, as it were, I'm not talking about my cover, right? That I joke now when I am flirting with people and actually interested in doing stuff is I say, are you interested in playing with Lee or interested in playing with Lee Harrington? Okay. Because those are very different things. It's kind of like folks who run that local club and people who want people who want to fuck them because they think they're going to get somewhere in that club. And I've had that more than I would like to remember at times. How do you delineate the difference between Lee and Lee Harrington? So, like all people, whatever your different faces are, are interwoven. I'm a big believer in the idea that we are each complex gemstones. They have different facets, right? But which facets someone wants to interact with, I get a lot of cues from where they want the conversation to go. If it's always about just this one topic of what I have taught in front of them, it's like, oh, there's a steered conversation. I'm also a big believer in asking that question I just said, do you want to play with Lee or Lee Harrington? I'm also, I love there's a gentleman by the name of Philip the Fool that has since passed. He was an amazing gentleman who he and J.Y. has been who is still around today. The two of them used to argue breath play back on the BBS systems in the 80s and 90s all the time. Like they were the two opposite sides of the breath play argument back then. Anyway, Philip used to do a negotiation style that said, hey, do you want to do some stuff? And I feel very inspired by that because if somebody says, hey, I want to do some stuff with you, I go, great. Or give an example of the rope stuff. Somebody comes up to me and says, I really want you to tie me up. And I go, okay, do you want to get tied up by someone? Do you want to do something with me? Or do you want to specifically get tied up by me? And the answer will inform again, how I connect with that person and how we move forward. Because if it's a, I really want it to be you because, well, you know, you're Lee Harrington. I'm like, oh, I'm being fetishized. Yes. And every once in a while being a fetish object is fun. But when you are a human being, being non-consensually fetishized, it's not the same thing. How fascinating. And if it's however, number one, I want to get tied up by someone. I go, oh, let me introduce you to Steve. Steve is awesome. Steve loves giving people their first bondage experience. That's like his kink. Steve is awesome. Let's have you meet Steve. But if somebody says I want to do something with you, I then look into my vault of, you know, my momentary desires and go, cool, do you want to play a board game? Do you want to go hang out in the food area and grab a coffee? Do you want to discuss Descartes? What are we going to do today? And I think that three-part question has helped me a lot in that delineation process. But I still have moments where I literally have, you know, been in bed with someone after playing and had somebody say, I can't believe I'm in bed with the insert title here. And that is people in the leather community talk about, oh, you know, oh, that's so cool. You're earning your silver lame hankey, forgetting that the bulk of us that are concerned community, whatever it is, community fame stuff, that is, that is non-consensual fetishization. Are there people who love that? Absolutely. I definitely know more than a few presenters and event producers and title holders that are all about that, that in fact only ever got their leather title because they wanted to get fetishized. Yeah. Awesome. But applying that across the board in the leather community is really damaging. I can't help but ask, non-consensual, but is it fetish, is it fetish? Yes, that. Is it off-putting to you? Does it offend you? So it's, I think it depends on the head space, right? And did I know that I'm, when it comes to like the moment, did I read it right? Because as a transgender person, I have a different body in physiology than other men, right? Because I was a sign female at birth and I have certain body traits that are different than other folks, even having had various medical interventions. And I actually really like the body that I have. Again, note the verse bottom. I delight in some of the realities of my body, but there are people who out there cruise specifically for, they, they flag, you know, they, they flag lavender as it were, right? They're cruising for drag queens and trans women. They are, you know, that's what they're looking for is I want to fuck a trans guy. And I'm like, great, that's lovely. And if that's what it says on their grinder profile or their Scruff app account, I am here because I think trans men are hot and I like to have sex with trans men. I know what I'm buying into. That's what I mean by consensual fetishization, right? It's looking at that. And then me assessing in my body, does the idea that this person is looking for my body rather than, you know, who I might be as a complex individual. How does that feel to me today? And the same thing happens for bears or twinks or for, you know, all kinds of different populations, right? Sure. And if I see somebody's profile that says I, I like to play with other bears, I'm like, Oh, I have an idea of your passions, your delights, and you don't necessarily care. You know that you are into, into bears, that is your thing. And for some folks, it's I'm into trans men as my starting place. And then I want to get to know the person and other person, it's I like trans men, right? And what they're usually meaning is they're, they're interested in men who happen to also have a vulva is usually what those folks are referring to, because I met some of those folks who then ran into somebody who had had a phalloplasty had a penis reconstruction, who were like, Oh, I wasn't prepared for that, because they had a story of what they were looking for, which is in fact, not what they were looking for. They were looking for guys with pies. And, and so it there are times when I look at that, and I'm like, let me get this straight, you are looking for somebody that has three holes to play with. And you want to meet up with them at a bathhouse and play with a group of folks. I then check with myself and go, does that sound hot and fun? Is it within my risk profiles? Does this idea delight me in this moment? Can I maybe bring a friend? Like I look at all those questions and the answer is yes, I am in for being fetishized. Wow. It's fun for me. But for other folks who are transgender, and certainly for large chunks of my life too, I want to be seen as a complex human being. In the same way, I know a lot of leather tops who are like, I want to be, you know, to quote, Master Barrick who runs the Cope, the central Ohio perversion excursion events. He said, I don't necessarily just want to be a vending machine. Right. He's willing to rack him and smack him. I love that slang. Like he's willing to put like, you know, have a line of bottoms who all want to be flogged at what like in one evening and he'll play with one for 10 minutes next 10 minutes. If it's fun for him that night, but if you expect that you can give a top a compliment and say, I really want to play with you and that they're now supposed, now you plug in, you know, scene number A6 on the vending machine and you get exactly the scene you wanted, that's non-consensual fetishization. And to me, that's the difference. Yeah. Completely fascinating. A little bit ago, you talked about teaching or at least speaking about BDSM in various academic situations. That can be a bit of a tricky subject. It can be a very delicate subject. How do you navigate that? So I was asked to teach at Washington University in St. Louis as their keynote speaker for their sexuality awareness week. So doing four classes and a big thing in front of everyone. And it was going to be a mix of kink topics and non-kink topics. Like my keynote was on humor and sexuality, right? And got all these college kids to talk about embarrassing moments they've had right in the bedroom. It's good fun. And when they were negotiating with me and with the college, like trying to figure out what's going to happen with budgets, there was a debate about whether it was going to be me as the person being paid this year versus next year or Bristol Palin. If this is looking at people who don't know the daughter of Sarah Palin, the girl who she was pregnant and speaking about abstinence at the same time, there was a lot. And so I got informed later that during the student Senate meeting, I had the student council slash student Senate meeting that they had to try to figure out budgets for this event, the vote was held between the prude and the pervert is how they decided. And they decided, even if people don't understand all this BDSM stuff, we would like to give our money to the pervert, please. And when I heard this later, I'm like, even though I self identify with the word pervert, I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I'm glad I'm wanted. And so to me, those kinds of moments are really, like when I look back on them, emotionally, a little challenging at the moment, but like really interesting when I look back on them, because it's the idea that there was a student group that was brave enough to back someone that wasn't, you know, sex, sex 101 of some topic, right? They're brave to back a voice that was had something else to offer. And I think that's a really important thing for us to consider when we're talking about discussing these topics in academic circles is who is the viewer that is listening to us potentially being discussed and whose voice is in the room. And they wanted my voice in the room. And by having my voice in the room, they were given permanent saying to the students who were there who had any mirrored identities to me or had any near to the things I was discussing, that academic body was saying, we see you, we see you are part of our community, we see that you are one of our students here, or we back and believe in the work you're doing as an academic. And this was around a similar time period to maybe a little bit, yeah, around when Leather Archives and Museum had just opened up. And I think having spaces like that available, or the Carter Johnson Leather Library, or whatever it might be, these resources available by keeping voices like ours in academic circles and having more and more people as the years go by writing about Leather and Kink and BDSM and adventurous sexuality, our alternative sexual practices in a light other than something being wrong with someone. Right. The more we have academics doing that work, the more we start making culture change. And I joke that I knew that I had made it as an author when I had a university contact me and say, we would like to use your books as course curriculum. And because, again, that says that not only did I write something that's nice, that was for Sacred Kink, but not that I just wrote something, but also this idea that there are enough voices that want to study this stuff, not just be titillated by it. Yes, absolutely. I agree. And I love the fact that in this series and the other stuff that LA&M is doing, you're creating first-person sources, right? Well, we're doing a first, but you're creating citable sources for the world of academia for the future. And so something to consider if somebody out there is watching too is this notion that if you want your voice represented, see if you can get it recorded, whether you speak something or not. Even if it's something as simple as posting a blog entry, because once it is out there, the negative is once it's out there, it's out there. But once it's out there, somebody else can see it. And beyond that, somebody else can cite it. Yes. Yes. We haven't touched upon your gender affirmation. Would you please educate us a little bit about how that happened for you, how you did that? Well, as I mentioned, as a teenager, I was turned down, based mostly on orientation. And so I spent a decade going on, first saying, okay, I guess I'm going to be a girl then. And then I went, well, if I'm going to be a girl, I might as well be a high fem woman. How about I do that? I'll wear corsets and stiletto heels. And I look back and I'm like, yeah, it was as close as I could be to a drag queen. Right. And then I started looking through the varieties of gender experience out there. I'm like, okay, well, if I can't be a binary transgender man, right, I move from female to male, so trans, male the result. So the word you're using trans blank, it's always where the person is at. And so it's like, I couldn't do that. So what's it like to be gender fluid? What's it like to play around with androgyny? What is it like to, for a while, I explored the word two-spirit, and I realized, don't do that, Lee. You're a white dude. That's problematic. Two-spirit is specifically a term that is used within Indigenous peoples of North America. And I am not, and I was starting to use the word two-spirit for self identity. And that's cultural appropriation. Because the way I look at cultural appropriation versus cultural appreciation is if I, as a white person, can do something like claim a word and I get lauded for it or at least accepted. And if somebody from that original culture did it and they would receive harm, I am stealing someone else's culture. Oh, this is different than say, if somebody says like, oh, well, I want to wear, I want to wear a kimono. Well, actually, there's a lot of designers in Japan who would like you to wear a kimono, but do it right, research it, know how you're wearing it. Don't wear it backwards. So it looks like you're laying on a message that you're dead. Like all those kinds of things. Like, is this cultural appreciation? Oh, also, am I giving that culture money? I'm also a big fan of that. But either way, I realized, oh, shit, I can't do, I shouldn't do that within my ethics. Because it was problematic. And I even, there's a term that I love that if I had been Indigenous Hawaiian, because a lot of my family's on the big island, like the word mahu, like that would resonate to my spirit so much, that's not a term. And so I went on this gender journey up and down to all kinds of different places trying to find something that fit a lot of it. Honestly, feeling it out and in my body when I was in leather community and erotic role-playing spaces, because suddenly you have a space where you can walk through the door and butchers get heat, right? You can choose the pronoun you get addressed at, you can get called sir, right? And there's not a question in that. Pronouns can be chosen, honorifics are stated, diminutives are stated, right? If you want to be called filthy little girl and you're somebody who is a cisgender man, fantastic. You could be called a filthy little girl, right? There's a space for that in our communities. And then when I was 26, I was with my former boy, my former property down in Australia, and I had a bit of an emotional breakdown. And I ripped off my shirt and I'm just like, I am sick of these. And I'm referring to the fairly large breasts I had at the time and realized even if I didn't pursue things legally, even if I didn't undergo any sort of medicalization beyond a single surgery, I needed to not be dysphoric when looking in the mirror. I needed to not have my breasts go into a room before me. And especially in BDSM and King spaces, people fetishize each other's bodies all the time. It's part of the appeal of these spaces sometimes, right? I go into a bathhouse and I am now a whole, right? I don't even have to declare a name or affiliation. It's just simply, oh, you are now this body part because you have a role in this space. And I decided I needed to do that. And it was actually really interesting watching when I decided not just to have surgery, but eventually decided to have hormones and pursue other paths, including legal changes. And it was interesting watching people in our communities have feelings about this. Some of these feelings were based on, oh my gosh, Lee, you're going through so much. That's so amazing. Are you okay? But a lot of them were actually things like if I was sexually attracted to her and have been fetishizing her for the last seven years in videos, does that make me gay? Right? Or people then going, well, people saying, well, I love you no matter your gender, but then once it got down to brass tacks, the reality was no. You liked a specific presentation on me. Or then also questions like, am I still welcome at women's events? Okay. And that last one is such a complex issue because some women's events say things like this is an event for women who love women and people who find their home in the women's community. Right? That's nice and broad. And it welcomes people like Patrick Caliphia, who was literally the founder of multiple women's only events, who is now a guy, Patrick, the author of SM101, who is not allowed to go to the events that he founded, because their definitions are things like must be legally female, or are things like must be a woman born and a woman who must have been assigned female at birth. And which of these three ones of different group chooses has been such a tumultuous conversation over the past 20 years in women's spaces especially? Men's spaces, I find, it's like even just a generic men's bathroom. Men's bathroom, you go in, you keep your head down, you head to the stall, you don't make interactions unless you're at a gay bar, actively cruising, or you're willing to potentially have something that misunderstood. Men's bathrooms are easy in a lot of ways, right? Nobody cares to such a point that if you run a toilet paper, no one will report it. Women's bathrooms, however, are a place where people are seen, where people go, I like your shirt, where somebody can say, I run a toilet paper, can somebody pass it over to the third stall? That is normal part of bathroom culture and that carries over to women's communities where it's not that women are necessarily, like in the women's leather communities I've been part of, not to say that women gossip in any way that is not the statement I am making. What I am saying is that people see each other. I see happen far more often in leather dyke spaces and women's spaces, people go, oh, so and so is sick, can somebody go ride their bike and drop by their place? And it doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be somebody literally dying before we start doing that for our community elders. Wow. And so to have women's spaces have to make these decisions is hard. I think of desire, which is a women's leather event that happens in phone springs or what's happening. Don't know where a lot of things are right now because we're in the midst of COVID adventures still, but I think the event may have closed at this point. I'm not sure. Anyway, but they decided it was people who are legally female living their lives as women full time and if you are non-surgical, if you're somebody who has externally presenting genitalia, they ask that you keep a thong on in the swimming pool. And so that that's one line. I've also seen ones where it's like, yeah, no, anybody who has assigned female birth is welcome and suddenly you'll have a group of trans fags who all show up in our in the corner all playing with each other being like, we're just over here. And now the rest of the women's party is like, why did we let them in if the dudes are all just going to be in the corner fucking other dudes? Yeah, they're dudes who happen to have been born women, but we're now very confused. So exploring these spaces as a transgender person is a really interesting thing to do on a personal level. What do I have to disclose? Where are the spaces? Do I need to disclose that I'm HIV positive? Do I disclose that I'm transgender? Do I need to disclose that I have other partners? The math that people do on what do you disclose when you're cruising applies just another layer to it. And in some places, a layer that involves a lot of safety risk and concern. Absolutely. And people making choices about when and where do you disclose? For me, I'm one of those people that puts it on my sleeve as it were. Sometimes literally I'm like, here is my grinder profile. It says queer versus transgender kinky vaccinated. The important things to consider. But I joke about it because there has been so many bumps along the road and it is easier to laugh sometimes at these things when telling the stories than hold on to the sorrow and the hardship of it. And by turning them into delights and thought exercises and what not, it allows the capacity to lift up those experiences in those histories and look at them without it being a return to the suffering. What advice can you offer someone who's exploring this road? Of BDSM leather and or are you referring specifically to transgender experience? Let's keep it specific to transgender. So in a note on language, it's usually referred to as transgender experience or being transgender. It's an adjective. So like brunette, right? When people are just like, oh, have you transgendered? I'm like, are you brunetted? Anyway. For teaching me this. And language is evolving. If somebody's watching this 10 years later, I have no idea what your language is now. I'm doing a snapshot from being based in Denver, Colorado in 2002, 2022. But some of the things I would consider is find your allies. Even if you have no, if all you know is gender is a thing and I need to look at it or it's forcing me to look at it because I can't look at myself in the mirror or it's forcing me to look at it because I'm having these moments of beauty when I embrace myself. It doesn't have to be all sorrow that leads us into these conversations. Find your team. If that involves going on recon or going on FetLife and setting up a fake profile featuring a picture of your boots to join all of the groups that you don't want to out yourself about, do it. Find other people to talk to. You don't need to be alone. Other people might not have the exact same journey you're on, but you are not alone. I think that's my number one. My number two is in the world at large, there's going to be bumpy moments. And the world bumpy being a scale everywhere from a pebble to a mountain. It can be really dangerous to be a transgender person in some parts of the world and even in places that are very safe, there's outliers of humanity for whom it is not safe to be transgender because of their behaviors, not because of anything inherently wrong, different or inappropriate about being trans or non-binary or whatever else. There's nothing wrong with these things, however, and people go, oh, well, it's better than it was in 1922. 2022 is better than 1922. I actually caught claim false on that because there were gender reassignment centers in Europe 100 years ago that were burned. And so to also then places it to the second question, which is what resources are available to you and start the research sooner rather than later? Even if that includes you being the one who supports someone else and you don't want to talk about it, that's fine. Something as simple as you calling somebody by the correct pronouns that they use. Not their preferred pronouns. It's not a preference. It is their pronouns in the same way that we would respect each other and leather community ideally by calling each other by the honorifics that we would prefer. Don't call me master. I am not your master. I might be a master, but I am not your master. Do not hand me that. It is true for others, but that's the difference with pronouns. They want it. I don't. Even if we look similar on our journeys on the outside. And then the last one I would throw out there for trans folks is to know that there's opportunities that will be had opening the doors for new directions. Whether you, however your transition looks, whether it's a social transition, right? You change your name or change pronouns, whether it's a legal transition, whether it is a medical transition, whatever it might be, because different people choose different routes or have access to different routes depending on their financial realities. To know that some doorways might open and other ones might close. Having gone on a medicalized gender journey in combination with a legal one, I can go to bathhouses now in most places. Okay. But trade-off, if I take my jock strap off, I am now making choices about how I might be read. And that goes back to point one around safety. Because our communities are not, they're not a utopia. They're cross-section. They're a core sample, right? If I've been to an SM party that literally had Fox News playing in the background, an SM party that literally had ACAP, like all cops are bad material on every single wall, we are a cross-section of our culture. You will run to every type. And I think there can be sometimes a mythology that says that somehow we are better than X, Y, or Z in the world at large. And I think there are pieces that that can sometimes be skewed in one direction or another, including respect for trans experience and human beings who happened to be trans. But it's not universal. So hold on for it not being a utopia. Now, I would be remiss if I did not engage you on your writing. Would you please talk with us about that? Your writing is extensive. Your writing is amazing. Speak. So I literally wrote my first book, which was called Shibara You Can Use. And if I, Japanese Rope Bunch and Erotic Macrame, and if we're talking about cultural appropriation, if I had to rewrite the titles on those books years later, I may have made different decisions about them, but it's the choices I made at the time. Mostly because Americans call it Shibara more than the folks in Japan do. Anyway, there's a whole thing around confusions of how those styles were even learned in the United States, including how I learned them. Anyway, I was contacted by a publisher that does a lot of stuff in the gay men's community and a lot of communities, lots of books. And they said, hey, we want you to do a video for us. And we'll have a little booklet that goes with it, but it's going to be a video. And I was in the height of doing videos. So I'm like, sure, that sounds great. And this is why I'm not listening to all the details. They have proceeded to break contract and not follow through on things after a lot of work had already been done. And I was hanging out with JD from The Naughty Boys, who have written a number of books as well. JD is a Leatherman who is just, if we talk about Leatherman as a Leather fetishist, like he is an iconic Leatherman, as compared to Leatherman in like identity, right? He has some of that. Anyway, I was at his house and he's like, so what happened with the book? You were supposed to beat us to market. And we had this heartfelt thing about how we have feelings about not just publishing, but also about, you know, kink communities and leather communities and how people treat each other was this long, all night thing. And he convinced me to finish the book because I already had most of the photographs shot. And so, and you've got the outline for it. So why not just do it? So I locked myself in Raven Caldera's attic, Raven Caldera is the owner of Alfred Press, and he's been writing books on master slave dynamics and power exchange dynamics for the last 20 plus years. And locked myself in his attic and wrote the book, published it. And it proceeded to sell. And I was like, wow, but I mean, I knew it would happen because there weren't any other, there were a handful of other rope bondage books. But this was like, literally step one, find a piece of rope. Step two, find someone to tie up. Like I was trying to like bondage ferdiates, right? Okay. And it did well enough that like, I started to get people interested in my stuff. So I started going, okay, what are some of the other things I want to write about? Because people seem interested in how I present information, because I've done work as a journalist, I've done stuff in writing other work. So let's apply it here. And I feel sometimes like I just kind of tripped into the career. Same in the same way that I tripped literally into doing adult film work, because I got pushed into a room. There's a lot of my stuff that was not a, I know people who like planned out that I'm going to go to college for this, and I'm going to focus on writing. My degree was in arts administration and museum management. Like, that is not the route I ended up on. And so I've gotten to write a couple of books by myself. And a couple of their co written, I co wrote a book with Molina Williams, who's was one of the international Ms Leathers, and an amazing woman in general, called playing well with others, your guide to your field guide to discovering exploring and navigating the BDSM kink and leather communities. And we wrote it, because it's the book we wish had existed when we got involved in the scene and had to trip over things, right? The number of things we didn't know like show up to a bar, shut up and watch, ask questions of people when they're not in the middle of a scene. There's a social difference between going to a conference and going to a house party. And so we wanted to sit down and write something that explained all of these things that once you've been in communities for a long time, you're like, oh, why would anybody have a problem going to a munch? But to name also that for if you don't know, if you think that somebody's going to convert you to their wicked ways in a not sexy way, the moment you walk into that Denny's, it can be really scary to join these places. True. So, you know, and then I've written a couple of how to books. When an age play, I did a second rope book, and then I've gotten to edit a couple of anthologies on queer magic, on sacred sexuality and kink in their intersection and on the place, intersection of rope bondage and power exchange. But the one that I'm really proud of is sacred kink, which is takes the look at eight different ways that we explore altered states of consciousness and examine that through both historical lens, right? Like, flogging, for example, appears in the history of the church, you know, the Catholic church and is also used by SMS. That's an easy one, right? But that rhythm can be an altered state of consciousness by dancing around a bonfire just as much as it is with getting a perfect spanking in tune and in time with the music that is playing and the heartbeat of our lovers. And getting to write that 420 page magnum opus was a lot, but, you know, multiple years of my life. But I love the fact that now that, like, when I see books come out on sexuality and on leather specifically and kink specifically, either, you know, either of those specifically, we start creating more spaces for conversation, I think. Oh, absolutely. And now I can get letters from people in rural Montana saying, hey, I read this thing because it was on Amazon because we need to be on as many media platforms as possible so that people know they're not alone. And if mine happened to be through podcasts and books and videos, then that's great. And somebody else is going to have it perfectly through TikTok. And somebody else is going to be doing it through, you know, great short format audio and different people are going to have different styles. And we need all of us who are talking about it to do so in an informed way that includes all of the audiences that are being left behind. And then if you have a platform, whether that is you host, you know, bar nights or whether that is that you have a YouTube channel or whatever it might be, remembering to lift up the voices that are not being heard is also part of having those platforms. Because I have been so delighted seeing the platforms being, you know, like either fought for more often and also, you know, supported for, you know, voices, you know, for black leather folks in the United States, for people of color, for the growing conversation around Indigenous experience that is finally coming back out that was, you know, actively talked about when Jay Tallwing was, I am Imzel, but then got set aside, like these kinds of conversations in spaces are so important and to make sure that as we as both kink communities and leather communities are moving forward and the intersection because I have danced back and forth between them and sometimes both at the same time and sometimes when not talking to the other and by I really honestly believe that by supporting each other's platforms and supporting each other's work, we can change not just culture in our own communities, but that it ripples out to the world at large because I have seen people who have never met a trans person until they met a trans woman or a trans man at a play party and then went, wow, I've never seen you as a human being as anything other than a caricature. Sure. And now you're getting to meet humans you would have never met in the world at large. Yeah. And if you meet another human in these sexual, in these sexuality communities and identity based communities that you would have not met in the world at large, it will invariably change how you act about that population in the world. Because I've had people who met me in the leather community who are just like, oh, you're normal. And I'm like, thanks. I mean, I'm weird, but like, okay. And what they meant was they had a mythology that transgender people were somehow broken or wrong or that they were delusional or this or that. And then they got to sit down and have coffee with me. Yeah. And to me, that's some of the magic that we have by being, and I feel really blessed that I get to do some of that in writing. For anyone who may be viewing this, are your works available on Amazon or other retail establishments? The short answer is please buy from your local booksellers and keep small businesses open. And yes, if you type in Lee Harrington, you either get me or like when it comes to writing me or a wonderful Roman woman who wrote Rex in the City, a complete dog walking guide. Okay. She's gotten my mail before. It's a little socially awkward, but I like really, she and I support each other's stuff at this point after 15 years of being confused for each other. But yeah, it's pretty much everywhere. I'm a big believer in making things accessible, right? And that if I am still alive and you are out there and folks can't afford stuff, I'll happily share with people where you can find 100 plus episodes of podcasts and blogging. I've been blogging since 1998 back when we called them internet journals. And I have these moments where I'm like, wow, there are some of us who are prolific. Mm-hmm. And that counts in whatever way you are prolific because gosh, do I know some power sluts that I'm just like, we're done. Who have mended communities with their cunts, like I'm all for it. What's your position? What are your thoughts about mentoring? Yes. Yes. If you have been in the community for a long time, find somebody that is new to the community, not just to mentor them but for you to learn from. Sure. The language has changed since you got involved here 30 years ago or whenever it is for whoever it might be, right? The words are moving. Language is shifting. Keep up. New ideas and technology are coming out all, coming out all the time. Find someone younger, find someone older, find somebody to pair with, find somebody to discuss random topics with. And when it comes to specifically activities and people want to learn them, I understand that actual mentorship as compared to showing people a couple of tricks is a different kind of energy investment. I'm not telling everybody they should do that because that's a lot of work and not everybody is built for it. True. And to expect people to is tricky but one of the things that when I have had the chance to, I'm happy to pair up with people for a weekend of like, oh yeah, here's spot I've seen kind of thing. But if somebody wants to either apprentice with me or officially be mentored by me, I tend to do things like show me how invested you are, both in learning and I have somebody whom I'm negotiating with right now about a potential apprentice relationship. And I literally told them, hey, in-person conferences are happening again. There is one in your area. If I handed you three classes that I think would be a great start to our conversation, would you do them? And that person said, yeah, I would. And I'm like, great, go do it. Come back. Show me you're serious. Show me you're willing to put in the effort. Because I think whether it's something like that, and it also means that they're getting to learn from three other teachers, not just me. Sure. I'm not creating clones, though I would probably fuck my clone. And I joke about it, but I had a serious discussion about that the other day. But I think for those of us who have been around for a long time, finding people who are not of our generation, whether it is age-wise or experience-wise, keeps us fresh, keeps us involved, keeps us learning, whether it's somebody who they are actually your mentor, or whether you're creating a symbiotic relationship. On a slightly lighter note, tell us about your dirty pig contest. Oh my god. Oh, okay. So I was, in 2010, I won Arizona Leather, sir. Yes. And back when I was loading there, as I mentioned, I've lived all over the place. And I won the title. And when I was running, I'd been lovingly coerced into running, and which is stressful because nobody else was, everybody was running for boy, nobody was running for sir. Oh, okay. And so the producer was just like, can you run? And I'm like, yeah, but I can't run further up the chain because it's opposite my work anyway. So I went, I run for this title, and it's full of all of these rules, right? Like, if you've ever slept with or actively cruised with one of the contestants, you have to excuse yourself as a judge. Oh, okay. Or no full immunity. And your SM, like bondage is fine, but SM has to have be pulled punches because it was at a bar, right? Or, like all these kinds of things, right? And I'm like, this is ridiculous. The community is only so large. If you remove anybody who's ever cruised each other in a community, like, we are, we're removing voices from just because the base of the base being based out of the often sexualized based community, which is great. Yeah. Which is not to say that every Leather person is sexual. I know a lot of asexual Leather people and a lot of asexual kinksters, and actually, especially a lot of asexual rope bondage people, but at least asexual in how they address the topics. But I got a hold of Greg from Dark Odyssey, which used to be Leather Retreat, and said to him, Greg, this was stupid. I'm glad I have the experience. It's nice that I have a title, woohoo. And I just, I want to make fun of it. Can I make fun of it? He's like, here's a stage. Have fun. Tell me what resources you need. And so I decided to put together a theater sport event where I had judges who got drinks brought to them. And we had a big stage and I had an emcee, and I was the emcee the first year. And then people of every experience level could run for it because instead of you have to plan your scene out for a year in advance and do choreography. No, no, no. You go up, you introduce yourself, you do a little like, hey, tell us about you, go off stage, get changed, come back out, do some pop questions, but the pop questions are things like if you were to be removed from this position from a scandal, what is your sexual scandal that you had? Okay. Right. Fun things like that. And then at the end of it, you literally draw a song out of a hat and receive a bag of theater sports props. And you have 10 minutes to put together a scene, come back on stage, and have fun. And so we had people who literally it was their first weekend at an event and people who had been in the scene for 25 plus years who both ran on the same stage and had fun. Wow. And I ran this for eight years, we're actually bringing it back. So it's coming back shortly. But I ran it. And after a while when you do things enough, even if it's a joke, it becomes real. Because people are like, oh my God, the dirty pig is happening. I've heard about this for years. Or I wonder what the show is going to be like. I'm like, it's not okay. I guess it's a show now. And we had one year where somebody did something really healthy and safety wise, not great involving a corn cob and eating it on stage. And after he ended up winning, because he was also just a good contestant, people started thinking that it wasn't just the dirty pig, it was the gross pig. And we started getting more and more extreme gross scenes. Okay. And so after a while, I'm really glad we ended up retiring it because it just it got out of hand. I joke about it, but it's true. When you end up with pudding that came out of somebody's diaper that ends up on your lighting equipment, it's time to call it a wrap. It led to such beautiful moments as water sports done in time with let it go to frozen or a leather boy being wrapped in bubble wrap and making testicles out of water balloons and being stepped on in time to Katy Perry's ET, right? Like magic moments like that. And I love the fact that not just that we're bringing it back, but that it became this thing that was a joke. But it's where people also who would never have run for something like Leather Sir because they didn't feel seen. When I was running, I literally had the mask. Well, you also bought them. Is that a problem? I'm like, why would that be a problem? Or you have some submissives who are both male and female. Is that a problem? I'm like, I also have one who's non-binary. Why is this a problem? There were folks out there who would never have gone through that process, but would happily get on stage and do ridiculous stuff in time with these boots are made for walking. Yeah. How fun. It is. It really is. It's a lot of work. And I love the fact that now, again, it started out as a joke where our highest title position for one of our judges was International Pipe Bear 1998, I believe was was Nailin's title. Like I've now had folks that are international title holders like on the Mr. and Ms. thing. Like I've had people who are in the title chains be part of it, as well as literally random humans out of the audience who found a Clementine underneath their chair. And I did an Oprah moment. Oh, and I love the idea of, again, making the, when we're talking about leather communities as we are moving, you know, as we're in the 2020s, how do we make this engageable for everyone? Because one of the problems I mean, other than the fact that we call it a leather community, there's a lot of people who have challenges around leather as a material. But and a perception that it's exclusive is where are we inviting people in to join? And how do we want to do that? Because I also have deep sorrow, like, yes, I want to open all of these things up and have it be amazing. And there is a part of me that has deep sorrow in the way that Joseph O'Donohue in the book Anumkara talks about the idea that shine not the neon light of analysis upon the shadows of my spirit. The idea that if we put everything out there on, you know, on TikTok, where is the magic left for the initiation of sexual desire, where mentorship is not just hey, can you sit down and go watch some classes at a conference. But mentorship is I will show you on your skin how we do this dance. It's a it becomes a Gnostic transference, right? My energy passes from me into you through touch. And I think if we do that while naming the inequity that has happened in parts of our community, but but know the inequality and be like yay, inequality is fine. I can work with somebody who's been in for two weeks. And I've been in for 25 years. That's inequality will happen. But am I making sure I am not coercing someone based on my place of power? As long as I do that, there is power that happens in that direct place of learning in the shadows. And sometimes I have sorrow when a video gets recorded. And now it's available without context for somebody around the world. Yay, I'm so glad that you're in Lithuania and have access to this now. That's great. And Eastern Europe has a really thriving community in a very different way. They sure do. Right. Just a very different flavor. But I think there is sorrow I sometimes have when I know that it's not going hand to hand. Okay. Yeah. Right. Those moments where I just delight in getting to have a chance for somebody to get it because we saw each other's faces. And we were right there in each other's arms in each other's hearts, doing that learning and growing in all directions that I know rationally a lot and even from within my own life, a lot of that was done because we were avoiding legal issues. Yeah. Right. We are doing it based on cultural trauma of our peoples. Right. I know that's where a lot of it came from, but it's also powerful medicine. It's powerful magic. That direct transference is really powerful magic. What's the biggest misconception about you? Biggest misconception about me. Probably that I'm happy all the time. I am someone who has danced with a lot of complexities around mood disorder issues as well as anger issues over the years. And I am so delighted by folks who knew me 20 years ago who still talk to me because there's a lot of us that you'll run into in the scene who are dancing their own shadows that you do not know about. Yes. That you'll never see because you only see them at a play party or you only see them at a class. And don't social media doesn't always tell the story. I talked more about mental illness now on social media than I used to. But I have people who are like, how are you so upbeat about all this stuff all the time? And I'm like, I'm not actually. Here are the 12 times it sucked this week. Yeah. But it's not what you posted on Facebook or Instagram. Okay. I posted on my Instagram now, but I'm also on Instagram a lot. And because of that, that's one of my misconceptions. And for me it was when I finally started admitting some of that stuff and finding people who would be that support network for that stuff. It also helped me find other people like me. And I mean, there's an event if folks don't know about it. It's called Thrive. And it's called Thrive BDSM and Mental Health Conference. It is a free event that is hosted online. So you can watch it from anywhere in the world. They've got programming at all kinds of hours. And a place to talk about the complexities of mental health because there's so many leather people and kinky people who have not been able to receive quality mental health care. Because if you say I'm a leather man, there's therapists who will think you are mentally ill for that reason. Yes. Right. And or believe that you're an abuser or that you're abused. And so if access to mental health care at all isn't available, being able to have the conversations within that is even harder. So I love that there's now an online conference about some of these topics and that people are having more of the conversations because the amount that I kept in the mental health closet as it were was pretty dark. Lee Harrington, I don't know where to begin to thank you for such an amazing interview. And thank you so very much for being part of Inside Leather History, a fireside chat. It has been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for having me on and I look forward to win our paths next crossed. Absolutely.