 more than two genders. And we are starting right now with Brittany's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us, Brittany. Want to let you know folks on the right side of the screen, those are our debaters who are taking a more right leaning perspective. And that includes Alex in the bottom middle as well. And then on the left side of the screen, as well as April on the very top in the middle, those are our guests who are taking a more left leaning position. And with that, thanks so much, Brittany. In the top right, the floor is all yours. All right. All right, well, first I would like to say thanks to James for inviting me and everyone for being here. I'm Brittany. I host Politically Provoked, which you can find at cosy.tv slash Politically Provoked, since we've been banned from everything else. And now that I remember to show myself, since I always forget that, I'll get started. So this isn't a topic that I have usually talked about in the past. And to be honest, when James Spurs proposed this to me, I didn't want to do it. But then I got to learn that my good friend Taftaj was going to be here, so I knew I had to come. As I would like to thank Taftaj for now adding transphobia to the list of isms or phobias I currently have. I'm more of an out of sight, out of mind kind of person, like bring back, don't ask, don't tell type of shit. But for some reason, I was subjected to seeing Taftaj's penis on my Twitter timeline. I didn't even know porn was allowed on Twitter at the time, and this was the way I got to find out. It was absolutely disgusting. And aside from the fact that porn shouldn't be allowed on Twitter at all, as Taftaj has an only fans for that, which is a topic for another day, I wonder why someone who is clearly a very passable trans would want to advertise the very thing that makes them a man. So what are you Taftaj? Because this half ass, I'm going to look like a female, get some boobs, train my boys, do literally everything imaginable to be a woman, but then have a big or a small surprise down there for you, that you actually advertise on the internet, I can't compute it in my head. It literally broke my brain. And all the weirdos that have this fetish where they are actually, there's an actual market for this shit, you guys are sick and maybe even sicker. So I wound up losing my Twitter as a result of raging out about this, because apparently I'm the problem for not wanting to see that shit on my timeline. So to bring it back to the topic, yes, there are only two genders, all of this they them pronouns bullshit. It just seems to be broken people who likely had a rough childhood trying to detach themselves from the person they once were and become an entirely different person as one big cope or defense mechanism. And we're all supposed to just accept that. Well, I don't accept that. I might have been in the past, but again, thanks to Taftaj, I can no longer do that. Thank you. We'll kick it over to Taftaj for AKA April's opening statement. Thanks so much for being with us. Taftaj, the floor is all yours for your opening as well. Hey, thanks James. I'll try to be quick because I think that this, I don't know, beef is like very one sided. Six months ago, Bretney clicked on a picture or clicked on my Twitter profile labeled NSFW and like scrolled down until she saw a mute of me and like they're marked so that like you have to click to see the sensitive material. She did that. She saw like a nude photo of me and then she's like posted about this like, I don't know, like almost daily, like last week, which is, I don't know, it's very one sided because I'm not like engaged with this at all, but like she was calling people like the F word and stuff. Literally like she didn't say it, but she said like F slur to people, which is probably why she got banned. So I don't know. I feel like that's kind of kind of on you. And if you're like unable to handle like the very lowest amount of responsibility necessary to like restrain yourself from clicking on things that are marked NSFW, I don't really feel like I am responsible for them. But moving on from that, like I don't know, ridicules internet drama will get to the actual topic, which is gender. I think gender is a cultural category that is based on social roles relating to sex. And I think that there's good reason for this. I think that I'm certainly not a gender abolitionist. I think it's important to have gender roles. I think that there's real virtue in defined gender archetypes. And I think that comes with responsibilities. I think that lefties he hearing that they are the gender abolitionist because they hear responsibility and they correctly think restriction. But the capital T truth is that all good things come with responsibility and by extension restrictions. So and demands on people's actions. So by constructing cultural archetypes with defined roles, expectations and virtues we create meaningful ways of being that are worth aspiring towards. I think that most of the world, including the United States, uses a two gender systems. So we have two categories of ways of being that are related to sex that are worth aspiring towards. There's some caveat with that though and that's that a lot of US states recognize a non-binary or third gender option on birth certificates. You know, driver's license and whatnot. So I think that like if we move to a cultural landscape or that's the case then we can potentially introduce a third gender, even if we don't have one right now. Thank you very much for that opening as well, April. We'll kick it over to Hunter. Thanks so much for being with us, Hunter. The floor is all yours for your opening as well. Sure, thanks so much for having me on and my take is pretty simple. Are there two genders? Yes, right now there exists two genders. However, gender is socially constructed which simply means that although right now we recognize two genders, there does not in fact need to be two genders. It is not a necessity and it is certainly not something that stems from anything biological. This is merely a correlative thing. For example, if you took somebody with a penis and put them in a padded room from the minute they were born until the age of 18 and they never had any interaction with humans. I highly doubt that person with a penis would happen to just grow up to naturally like the color blue, want to wear suits, want to be more muscular and like the color blue or I think I maybe already said that but a lot of these things are social. A lot of the aspects of gender are social so I do think that right now we recognize two genders and I'm not afraid to say that at all but again there doesn't need to be two genders and that's really my only take thus far. Thank you very much for that opening as well from Hunter. We're going to kick it over to Kevin Ray Wilder. Thanks for being with us. Kevin, the floor is all yours for your opening too. Right on, thanks for having me. Yeah, so Alex Vilchik and I play with fire. We come from like the manosphere space so just so that people understand where we're coming from. That said, I debate more people in the manosphere than anybody. We're not necessarily like fresh and favorite or anything like that but the reason I bring that up is because I think this topic about two genders, it kind of in a way we're kind of saying okay like what is a man what is a woman right and I think when it comes to the manosphere you know a lot of guys are confused and they come to the manosphere because they're confused about what a man is what masculinity is what a woman is for that matter and I think unfortunately that a lot of that confusion is caused by some of the things that the left has been doing such as talking about you know how gender is separate from sex those types of things and I think it just confused it causes more confusion it does more harm than good and yeah so I I do believe that there's only two genders and I do think that it is basically inextricably tied to sex and yeah I'm happy to make my case or make my points for that being the case in this discussion. You got it thanks so much Kevin and Maddie Cakes first time here glad to have you as well the floor is all yours for your opening too. Wonderful yeah so are there only two genders more than one gender so here's the thing I want to establish a baseline before we jump into this clusterfuck I want to specify that there is a difference between gender identity sex assignment and sexual orientation they are three completely different separate things so before we go any further I think it's important to point that out and make sure that we can all be arguing from the same vantage point. Secondly the notion that there are only two genders is relatively new in fact there's evidence dating back thousands of years in cultures across the world that recognize a gender that is not strictly on the binary male female and typically I'm glad that Hunter brought up that it's very much a social construct it the concept of gender was more for the different roles that people play within a society and they were those types of roles were typically slotted into two different categories more feminine more masculine or traits associated with those but in many cultures there were other classifications that people could fall into and this is seen across the world you see this in India you see this in Samoan society you see this in Aztec both Aztec and Mayan society there is so much anthropological evidence to show that this is such a new concept where people all of a sudden are saying you have to fall into one category or the other in fact you do not both and this this is spans across sociology this spans across medicine this spans across people who study human biology like the notion that you have to fall into either of those categories is simply anti scientific it ignores thousands of years of human history and is just kind of sad and weird that you are offended by people using different pronouns which is just a product of English language there are plenty of other societies and languages that have pronouns that aren't just masculine or feminine so read a book sometime and I look forward to this what I is sure to be a very intellectually stimulating conversation it's going to be juicy there's no doubt about it thank you very much Maddie Kakes and we're going to kick it over to Alex who is right below me want to remind you folks on the right side of the screen as well as Alex in the box right below me on screen all of those four guests are more right-leaning when answering this question and then April right above me as well as everyone on the left side those three boxes are all more left-leaning but thanks very much for your patience Alex with your opening statement we're glad to hear it what have you got sure well first of all thank you for having me on it's my first time here but I'm glad to get involved in this discussion in this community I have a dating channel called playing with fire we specialize in dating advice however I do debate a lot of people I debate people more to the right of me and to the left of me so I'm arguing for two genders I'm far from a right winger I have no issue with people transitioning I have no problem addressing people by their preferred pronoun due to politeness but I think on this issue the left has literally lost his mind arguing that everything is just a social construct saying there's infinite genders that we need laws to enforce people using pronouns that trans women should be allowed to compete in female sports and that gender should be abolished and anyone who disagrees with any of this is always just labeled a transfer and the last thing I will say is just like I cannot become black by injecting element in my skin a man can't truly become a woman through surgery and hormones how it does not mean they should not be treated with respect and dignity you've got to thank you very much for that opening as well from Alex and we're gonna kick it over to rampant lotus on the bottom left side rampant lotus the floor is all yours thanks for being with us thank you first time being here it is a pleasure so my background is in the sciences if you can speak just a bit closer to your mic oh sorry about that my background is in the sciences I have a master's in anatomy and physiology and a bachelor's in biology and biomedical sciences so yeah I hadn't really expected this to be quite this this packed but yeah these things are in the purposes of talking about them in the sciences if we're talking about we have to as Maddie said talk about sex gender and sexual orientation as all being three separate things we have to look at these different things based on the parameters that we want to understand them as and so a large part of this conversation is seems to be a conflict between the prescription and the description and I'm primarily concerned with the descriptive aspects of this so the prescriptions that I would make however are well it's gender is a social construct why do you care what other people are doing with their bodies and their expressions if you respect them you should well respect their choices and if not well this is part of being society and part of being a grown up and you really should just do that you got it thank you very much for that opening as well rampant lotus and we're gonna take it over to alex stein bottom right for our final opening want to remind you folks you've gotten a taste of pretty much everybody's opening statements now their links are in the description in case you want to hear more you can click on those links and we put our guest links in the description box at the podcast as well with that alex thanks so much the floor is all yours alex stein well it's a pleasure and it's an honor and to be around so many gender fluid people like myself i really feel at home but i have to take you know contrarian stance because you know i'm alex stein but i'm also alexandria stein i've been limited from competing against the women and changing in the women's locker room here in dallas and so i just think that we live in an unfair world where you can say gender is a social construct that you have people like leah thomas who literally was on the men's swim team for four for three years and was ranked 457 get to switch to the women's team and become the top ranked swimmer and these have these actions have real consequences when you look at the actual biological women that he beat i think the only top 18 women go to the ntb championships so there were 17 others women that spent their whole entire life in a pool that had to lose to a woman that still had a penis and that was still attracted to female so he is or she is excuse me a lesbian and so i just think that's where we're getting a little too loosey goosey and i think you know one of my role models of guy named andy kaufman and what he did is he would wrestle women and in that division he created what was called an intergender division and that's what we need to have because gender is not a social construct when you look at it it's very simple in the movie kindergarten cough that described it very simply as you know boys have a penis girls have a vagina now not all women can have babies but the majority of women are born with ovaries with a uterus that are capable of having a baby most men are not able to do that they have a penis and tessie so that separates us now if you want to argue that there's three sexes because they're very small percent of people that are born intersex i would you know tend to give you a little leeway with that the fact that there are some people born intersex either hermaphrodite or they're born with neither genitals it was some sort of you know a genital defect so i could i could argue that there is a third gender of having deformed genitalia but other than that it's just two it's boys and girls when i switch from alex alexandria i don't switch into uh you know i switch from a boy to a girl and back from a girl to a boy it's just simple it's that that's how it works you know i mean just look at animals are there any trans animals now and we're not much 20 seconds i don't believe even though we didn't evolve from pond scum uh okay there are gay frogs but that's the that's the exactly what's being gay is not the same as being trans but i'm prime time nine and nine i'm alexandria stein i'm the most gender fluid uh pimp in the game and with that we're going to jump into open dialogue folks want to say if it's your first time here at modern day debate we are a neutral platform hosting debates on science religion and politics we hope you feel welcome no matter what walk of life you were from no matter how far politically left or right you are welcome and don't forget to hit that subscribe button for more juicy upcoming debates and panels with that thanks so much gang the floor is all yours for this open dialogue also all right i'm going to take the initiative by so uh i'm going to start by saying there are animals that are capable of changing their sex that is a thing that happens in biology and can change in sex what you said there are certain animals not all animals can do everything please do your god like don't act that stupid i like and if you're thinking about also if you're thinking about if it's only if it's only if it's only if you can only be female but there's already interrupting so just go ahead medicare what animal can change in sex thank you hush so oh yeah go for it lizards beetles fish and birds yeah also if and if we want to talk about if we are going to hold these um if we're going to hold these standards of gender across the board to shush alex alexandra so if we're going to hold these um gender norms across the board where no if you can give birth then you are female wonder who's going to tell all those poor um what is it the the hor the crap what am i thinking of sea horse mausoleum that seahorse or like seahorses men give birth the male seahorses give birth also the notion the notion that only like if you can give birth you're a woman not every woman can give birth for plenty of reasons also some people are born with two sets of genitalia wonder what they are i said that i'm so weird also i find sex is not gender we haven't heard from april and then i know hunter has something to well actually i'm gonna be done one second just for crying out loud i'm talking is we'll go to april and then we'll go over to a right-leaning speaker whether it be britney alex or kevin by alex i mean alex from playing with fire go ahead april and then we'll go after that to hunter i know you had something to say okay so let's try to avoid like the gay frogs discussion because that's just it's a meme it's not super relevant i want to touch on this idea of a social construct because it gets brought up like on the left side and on the right side and really seems to be the source of a lot of contention and i really blame people like vash for just like horrendously misusing this term and creating like a ton of confusion around it and just because something is a social construct and i'm speaking specifically to like alex just because something is the social construct doesn't mean it doesn't correlate to something real and tangible the idea that men are aggressive and competitive is a social expectation the cultures that we exist in have an expectation for men to be aggressive and competitive but it correlates to something very real and tangible which is testosterone testosterone increases aggression and competitive behavior in young men so you see these young boys they pick up like sticks they pretend that they're guns they pretend that they're swords they whack each other they engage in this kind of like aggressive play and that you know that carries on their whole lives that's something that can be really traced back to biology but the expectation that men are that way is social so i think that we should just like that would be a good place to start is kind of honing in on this idea anybody in terms of alex kevin or britney and then like i said we'll go to hunter right after i just have a question for toftage why if you are trying to be a woman why would you show your dick why would you advertise that okay let's move on that's like not even the subject right now we get it you are banned very sad everyone's bum alex or kevin what do you identify it what do you identify alex or kevin we do i do want to move on i'm going to be one of the guys's personal who cares moving on i'm right okay cool cool okay okay let's keep our question i want to pose this question to maddie cakes and anyone who's kind of on her side uh this is a simple question but you'll see where i'm going how many hands do humans have how many what humans are we talking about because people are born with more than two but generally speaking if i was to ask you how many hands do humans on average like on average i say like two you don't even know that humans have two hands humans are two hands you don't even know humans have how many you can change your gender hold on let's hear from alex playing with fire it's not humans humans generally have two hands but of course there's exceptions some people who are born with one hand exceptions don't make the rule no one on my side is denying the fact that there's people who are born with you know more than one genitalia and there's all kinds of exceptions but exceptions don't make the rule so you can point out exception after exception that's still not going to negate the rule so if someone's born with one hand they actually have two humans just still have two hands just because there's one guy who's born with one hand doesn't mean that humans now have maybe one or two hands humans still have two hands so if someone is born with like white eyes they don't have like all that it's like no humans that doesn't happen so you actually have blue eyes um i'm just trying to see what this line of logic is very hard to follow the line of logic is actually really easy hold on let's hear let's see if we can make the rules can i just cut in here because there's there's a big thing that every hold on wait there's a big thing that literally everybody here is missing okay and that is the crucial distinction between gender and sex when uh alex from playing with fire here brings up two hands he's correct on average humans have two hands on average some humans have a penis and some humans have a vagina this is all correct but that is sex sex and gender are two different things so gender refers to the socially constructed views of how people behave usually it's a spectrum between masculinity and femininity so when people say it's a social construct one that does not mean that that thing is not real as literally money is a social construct as far as the worth that we ascribe to it and second of all just if something is a social construct doesn't mean that it cannot have serious weight when it comes to influencing your internal perception and this is where it's so crucial to recognize the validity of trans people is that trans people they have an internal perception of themselves that aligns more with the cultural views of femininity as broad as that money do you think they were born trans? I think that there's there's good evidence to show that people when they are transsexual are probably born that way or at least born to be more likely to be that way could you could you get sorry could you get into the like because do you think gender and sex are just completely like unrelated like can you get into how you how you think that they're related they're related very connected there's strong I think there does have a strong correlation I think that people get confused is that like again like the example I brought up in my opening if you have somebody with a penis and they never interact with human society that person is not going to grow up to naturally want to wear suits and like the color blue these are social expectations that we place on people and I think that this is where the big confusion comes from with gender is that there is an external element of gender which is the social construct however that external social construct can still influence your internal perception similarly an example I like to point to is if I say that I have an identity not a gender identity but I identify myself as a fan of football here in America that means something different than if I went to Brazil and says I am a fan of football what that means is the external social construct or the external thing that humans have created more or less can influence how you perceive yourself internally and this is exactly what applies with gender as well Hunter I don't think anyone is arguing against that I think you need all decent points that pretty much I think at least me personally I agree with it I think Kevin would too the problem comes to the brands are molested though that's what I want to know okay well before we go off on Brittany's like brain dead takes let's just get back to it not if I say no we have to hear I want to pose I want to pose a question just hold on one second yeah Alex I'm interested in your question I want to kick it over to rampant lotus has been waiting for a while I know you're in the middle of an engagement could he just respond to me real quick I'll give you a chance to respond Alex it was it was going to be a line of questioning so maybe if you want to be super quick rampant lotus should go I actually had a comment on her opening remark but I can do that afterwards she speaks or deal thanks for appreciate that Alex we'll come back to you I promise and then rampant lotus yeah I was actually more interested in in talking with Alex about the or valentic about this too many Alex's I know yeah all him prime time the sure I can do that I'll call you by your name why won't you call me by my preferred name anyway it's funny how they can have a fake name well it's your cat's name me and Alex S let's get to the let's get to the you realize all names are let's keep it on track I think lotus go ahead I just wish you would understand if all names are fake so I agree do you believe yeah that there is a significant difference between men and women on a metaphysical level because that really seems to be what the majority of you have been talking about over here on the right because that's as as far as what we are looking at and concerned with what you're talking about isn't a matter of actually engaging with the biology or the social construct which you guys seem to conflate pretty freely except for Alex and not prime time and I was going to say that it seems less like you were you were arguing about the specifics of this topic in a scientific sense and more about arguing it as a this is the way that the universe works but I deal with questions of flesh and blood and bone and as far as I am concerned these things are all just me and I fundamentally reject that and I'm surprised as you're a biology major if you so how do you explain the different endocrine systems that women and females and males have that's not gender that's not gender so if we're talking about sex though like the things that really determine this are just the different hormonal washes that occur during development you can have people with certain chromosomes end up with expressions of the opposite sex by having there's a whole bunch of genes that control a whole bunch of enzymes that make a whole bunch of hormones all these different hormones come from the same general background building blocks and these enzymes put them all together and then you have a certain hormone but if you don't have the gene for that enzyme there's other pathways that they can take through that entire dialogue tree of enzymes and then you will end up with the opposite sex's hormones and they will develop as the opposite sex Lotus I don't think so really quickly can I can I just I just want to make sure I understand so because when you said man woman I couldn't help but think so if we're making it a distinction between sex and gender do you guys agree that sex is male female if we had to make a distinction that maybe gender is male woman not by variant so there are there are traits that we consider more male more female but that does not mean that they're and most people are concentrated towards one end or the other but that does not mean that there is not a huge valley in which all sorts of weird stuff can happen chromosomally hormonal exposure and you did know you were trans by the way like how old were you pardon how old were you when you knew you were trans very young like how old don't give into her questioning she's trying to get around to oh you were molested as a baby that makes you trans let's go to April can I ask because you guys don't like it no it's not that we don't like because it's not really really stupid or you're trying to have a conversation here and you're just like derailing it's extremely dumb I think that the issue pretty I like it's not you're getting out I would like to hear Alan's response faster in getting to it oh this is like retarded well what's the issue oh my god are you looking in the mirror again what's the issue in terms of you would ask I thought monsters were a shit show well what is this you guys like I'm the only person bringing order here just keep it Alex is you had a question for Lotus what was the question for well I wanted to Alex not you I'm talking to Brittany sorry I can see why you get why I was why you think I was talking to you but Brittany you asked Lotus at what age did you think that you recognize your gender why did you ask that question now how like I'm just wondering at what point this starts to happen I want to know because for me I would rather know if something happened to these people to make them this way and if there's ways to prevent it because I would assume that you wouldn't want to be that way but the way we're like socially accepting this so much I'm seeing people that are actually do what the data doesn't actually suggest that there's anything like that because trans people are people who identify as trans or gender non-binary span socio-economic groups they span racial groups like that so there's no common thread so if you think that it's because of some like trauma if you think it's trauma based that goes in the face of um urology that goes in the face of psychology mentioned for crying out loud okay you guys seriously it is while Maddie is still talking Lotus you start talking I don't understand that you guys are actually basically of the same position in her defense I talk a lot um so I get it I don't care no the idea is I don't think you notice Alex I'm talking right now is that when people are talking over each other they can't hear either of them and it defeats the purpose of the panel so Brittany if you want a chance for a spot you can but for real some of you guys are jumping in so freaking even as your own people on your own side are talking you jump in and speak over them it just doesn't really work on it go ahead Brittany Brittany do you have a response oh that's right you're okay now you're unmuted muted I think about the bimodal question and whether or not they're two sexes because I think that's relevant and interesting and I think that like I think we can really come to some common ground here because like the reason why we're able to point to these outliers these you know these people who are intersex or they have some chromosome condition their genotype is not matching their phenotype et cetera the reason we can find these outliers is because broadly we understand you know that the category is male and female and we understand the boundaries of these categories and we understand that there's two of them and I think we can acknowledge that like yeah some men have gyno right where they start developing breast tissue but we understand that in general that is something that is like very linked to one thing even if they're if there's some overlap so I think that like you can just I'm a vegetarian I eat a lot of soy sorry my nipples are happens with body sometimes too anyway you yeah so I think we can like sort of just like bite that bullet and acknowledge that yeah that they're broadly too too sexist so really quickly I'm curious because the whole the point of the debate is are there more than two genders so if there was a third gender like what would that be because my position is that gender is inextricably tied to sex it's just that gender I agree okay well so gender is more so like what what is expected of you know males what is expected of females and I'm just curious of like what a third or fourth or fifth gender would be and why would it be under the umbrella of gender why not under the umbrella of just like self-identity for example why why specifically is it gender and not to self-identity whatever those genders I think that's great yeah and I'll I'll respond to that because I think that's very relevant to the kinds of things that I was saying earlier and we both have a similar view of gender which is that it's like inextricably linked to the expectations for a certain sex so I think like historically and this is something that Maddy Kicks also brought up like there are Hindu ideas about people who reject the social roles of both male and female or people who take on the social roles of both and so you know historically I think this is like calling it gender is like debatable but like we could have something like that where you have a person who rejects both social roles or engages with both it's still related to sex and it's still related to the expectations of you know male and female sexes but it's a new category that does something different with those expectations yeah if I could just add on top of that too so for example because there I would say that in general the majority of people who have one maybe they're assigned male at birth in general like the majority of those people will then identify as a man in terms of their gender but that gender classification is rooted in then the societal expectations for that person based on that but there are examples historically of other cultures that see an in-between or gender roles that don't just fall into that binary so as an example in Hawaii the Hawaiian what they're called mahu they are some that called they occupy a space in the middle between male and female also in contemporary Native Americans cultures in a few that were prevalent in North America they also had what they call two-spirit community or people that don't necessarily fall into that societal role that aligns with their assigned sex and I mean we see this all across the world really the only place where that wasn't prevalent going into like the more modern era was western Europe and by conduit the colonialists it was prevalent in the Incan society was prevalent in Mexican society until the Spanish came and sort of forced a lot of the people through colonialization to abandon that societal structure could I ask I think that's a really good but I don't want to fight with my own side I mean I think that that's a good good point that you're making Matty but I also think that for the sake of this discussion we really should be focused a little bit more on the now and that's why I usually say that there are two genders as far as what have we socially constructed in regards to roles behaviors expectations and so on that correlate with masculinity and femininity this is why I actually argue against the xenogender thing is because in order to have an identity or in order to identify with a gender you need to have an internal perception that you are that thing this is why I say a woman is somebody who has an internal perception that aligns with what we culturally view as being more feminine feminine of course being quite broad that has a very broad window but it is that internal perception that ultimately holds the weight this is why somebody can be a woman regardless of how they dress regardless of how they act it is the internal perception that holds the weight can I ask a few questions to Hunter in April I promise they'll be pretty easy and straightforward I'd like to talk to you Alex yeah I know you wanted to go down yeah me too you seem like you okay cool cool so my question is this do you think gender is purely a social construct so I think that things can be a social construct but still map like things that exist in the real world so like the exact category for example like you can have a category of like things that like count as water but like that is like H2O exists in real life whatever you call it and whatever you include in the category of water there is like a real thing of H2O and I think it's the same thing with like gender we're like there you can have expectations for men and women but there is like something that it's mapping too oftentimes in the West and that's that's from biology right from our DNA I would say so like testosterone estrogen these things influence people's behaviors there are preferences the kind of work that they go into all all hosts of things and so like all of that I think is like it stems from the layer of biology and then we develop certain social expectations on top of that right and I think can I ask you a question correct here it's because well just really quickly I think you're correct April I think that what it is is that it's true that males on average have higher testosterone of course however the role that we assign that male on the basis of them having higher levels of testosterone is obviously a social thing so one guy might have a higher testosterone he might want to contribute that towards you know building houses the rugged dude and then another guy might have a lot of testosterone and he might want to put that towards something else maybe he would rather just sit at home on his computer who knows either way it's more about just be a homemaker be like yeah say at home on fire or something exactly yes that's a that's a much better example rampant lotus I know you've been waiting for a while any thoughts on this particular topic um I wanted to say that I largely agree with what Maddie and Avalon is saying I feel like taftaj is getting a bit lost in the weeds with regards to how can you please talk a little faster there's like eight people here a little bit louder sorry this is a bit hard to hear you is this better yep that's better yeah um so oh god my train of thought you should getting lost in the weeds we'll come back I can follow up because I want to actually ask a few questions that was just like the starting question because I just kind of want to figure out I would like yeah Alex go ahead I can answer some of them okay cool yeah uh so okay so okay that's interesting so you don't think it's purely social construct so I don't think we're like too far off then but I guess then my question would be this of course yes there are some men who are much more feminine and there's some women who are much more masculine of course that happens but that's still two what's the what are the other genders then I don't think they're this is why I say I don't think there are any other genders I think that there exist I think that there is a man and there is a woman and those gender categories are on the basis of when you ask what the real thing is that it correlates to it correlates to our understanding of masculinity and femininity this is why if you notice all genders have something to do with your presentation and it's always in regards to masculinity or femininity or somewhere in between and then what you have are non-binary people who simply reject the gender binary they are not either gender they are I used to wrongly argue that they were a third gender but it's a rejection of the gender binary similarly like atheists for example will say that I don't have my own religion I simply reject the claims of other religions so it's kind of like that when it comes to non-binary but no I don't I don't think there is a third gender okay are they not tied are they not tied to sex then so they're just tied to masculinity and femininity they're not tied to male or female well think about what is masculine and what is feminine can vary significantly and it doesn't necessarily have to be on the basis of sex it's correlated you're right that it's strongly correlated because that's how we do it right now but I mean just if you have a penis doesn't necessarily mean you're going to act or present a specific way there's variants there and it's not innately connected to sex rather it is just correlated to sex okay I think in terms of role-playing role-playing go ahead go ahead okay just I'll say this very quickly just to add on to what Avalon is saying historically you sometimes saw like third categories created on the basis of sex but like depending on how people engage with their sex so like you had third genders for like effeminate men or men who are like homosexual and that was considered like a separate gender category so like you could potentially split up the category of male into like two separate genders where you have like masculine men and feminine men and you call it a different gender I would say that like if you lived in a culture that routinely adopted that you could say that that culture has three genders and I'm with Hunter I don't think that we live in that culture I just think that it's hypothetically possible right so I think really quickly so I'll just really quick no no no really quick this is bored okay I want to I still believe that sex and gender inextricably tied I know Taftaj you do agree with me I want to sort of prove that here I want to ask you guys okay like what what is the difference between a boy and a man or a girl and a woman and you mean answer doesn't matter who the different expectations of gender based on general age I'd say legally not just that it's also over 18 from a legal standpoint it would be an age thing right well I think that what Kevin's getting at is that it's obviously in that case a biological thing that's being referred to not just that nope you don't think it's it's that biologically different it's that and gender so that's this is where I say the two are tied together right so biologically yes of course if you are prepubescent you're a boy and let's just say for argument's sake a man is somebody who's competing completed puberty right so if you just hit puberty not technically a man just from a biological standpoint if you disagree with that understand but let's just for argument's sake so based on that when it comes to gender there are certain expectations of boys and there are certain expectations of men so that's where I say that the two are tied together because you can make a biological claim of that yes there is a sex difference or within the realm of sex there's a difference between a boy and a man and then within the realm of gender there's a difference between a boy and a man as well because there's certain expectations that society puts on boys and there's certain expectations put on men and that is going to be contingent on how evolved they are in terms of their I guess their age or their development when you say that it's definitely tied are you do you mean that it's correlated because I agree with you that gender is correlated with sex I think that a lot of the times though the arguments are presented in a way that tries to suggest that there's almost a causal thing there well it's always hard to prove any sort of causality I would say it's extremely strongly correlated or positively correlated yeah and do you think that that correlation has anything well do you think that correlation has anything to do with the way in which we apply these social expectations and standards I mean for example a lot of the times women are wrongly expected to be more agreeable and a little bit quieter and kind of go with the flow when that's not like a natural thing for women necessarily yeah so when it comes when it comes to society as a whole those correlations become relevant when it comes when it's an individual to individual basis yeah I could understand there to be a bit more nuance but yeah when it comes to this stuff I think speaking in generalities more is more important because we're trying to make prescriptions or claims about what's ethical or unethical based on these sorts of classifications right so I think when it comes to society when it comes to society on a macro level I think it's very dangerous to say like oh well there's a third gender or a fourth gender or fifth gender or whatever because society does expect certain things from boys side societies expect certain things from men for example and I think having this discussion it's making something that's I think is actually really quite simple a lot more complicated just to acquiesce to a very small minority of people and I'm not saying that those minority of people shouldn't have their say by any means but I don't think that we should reconstruct society in any sort of way just to acquiesce to them I don't think that it's reconstructed sorry I don't think it's reconstructing society as much as it is that we are recognizing the significant distinctions between sex and gender I mean gender has always existed throughout humanity whenever there are human civilizations there is a level of gender which are the expectations roles behaviors and so forth that you place on individuals true that it's usually based on their sex but that is the social decision that we have made it's not a causal thing that's why I always take issue when you say it's it's necessarily tied it's tied because we've decided to tie it that way but it doesn't need to be I mean don't you think it's important though that we have certain expectations of biologically you know like boys so boys don't have to live up to a certain societal standard the same way men have to in terms of and again when I say men I mean biological men have the standard of males yeah I know what you mean yeah yeah so let's say fully grown males versus not fully grown males right wait of course yeah of course the expectations of course there need to be different expectations on those those two people and that's in that case I'm not sure how that disproves or I'm not sure how that disproves anything each April and Maddie had a point April you can go for it first yeah and I can talk to you like yeah so I actually I wrote this down because I was listening to Kevin you speak earlier in your opening statement and one of the things you mentioned was that you believe there's a lot of confusion relating to gender and the expectations regarding gender because of our cultural shift towards recognizing these like gender non-conforming behaviors as like a legitimate third social category and I think that like maybe we can find some common ground there because when I look at especially like the dating market for men and women I see a lot of young men who don't know what they're expected to do they don't understand what that social role is for men and I think that if you ask your parents or grandparents what the social role is for men what the expectation for men is in how they engage with dating they would have a very clear idea they'd be able to tell you yeah the man is supposed to pay for dinner he's supposed to give the woman his coat when she's cold and etc and etc and these are like social roles that developed over time for like probably for good reasons and we as we've moved away for them from them also for some good reasons we've led a lot of people to this area of confusion so I think that's true but I wouldn't say that the confusion stems from recognizing that people are gender non-conforming what I think it stems from is this kind of gender abolitionist movement that says that there should be no sort of expectations or virtues attached to gender so I would make that distinction and you can go down that line but I think it's important because the second part of its conversation is what is ethical what are the prescriptions for gender what should be expected of people and I think that that's a really good thing to bring up as well because a lot of the times though that's where we get into the weeds which is what are the expectations placed on masculinity more broadly speaking and are they ethical should some of them be done away with it and so forth after Lotus I'd like to just follow up on all of that but go ahead Lotus you've been waiting for a while yeah I would like to say that I think that this has more to do with like the way that we are looking to ethically prescribe things onto the the realities of the world that we live in verse and the biology that we deal with versus the like actually engaging with the biology and biological arguments because I feel like that's the part that most people really care about and also the part that most people hear when they're talking about sex and gender being linked are placing undue importance on the sex aspect and insufficient importance on the gender it's we could have developed genders around the the parts associated with males and females and the the secondary sexual characteristics associated with males and females but we could have developed completely different genders than the ones that we did and the important questions are why and what does that mean and what do we intend to do with it when I just want to say this I want to say this I haven't spoke very much there's only two genders and I can prove it to you because there's the NBA and WNBA there's not a third basketball league so that really kind of trumps everything I worked for the WNBA and that's exactly that's a women's basketball league yeah and it's it's so true Alex 100% dropping the truth bombs over here all right so glad go back to sexually harassing women now okay listen I'm a prime time pimp I sexually harass a lot of women I might sexually harass your woman so you better be careful I'm sure you do yeah you seem to be an expert at it go ahead man seem to be an expert at it bro hey guys hey guys Alex I think your cat's calling to you go find it well it's funny and real quick I don't know if this one is pretty the only one here with a vagina Alex go find your cat well Alex you're here also and by the way you're so locked in here so if anybody wants to try it out I think let's somebody else talk about it you're the only one who wants to try it out I had a I had like a coin we're just yeah I like it we also go to Maddie Fakes is everybody here I just had a point to do this Alex go ahead Maddie thank you yeah so I was going to say one thing that Kevin had brought up was talking about how we are now being forced to structure society around these different gender identities or at least that was the way it was framed and I guess I wanted to kind of flip that on its head and say the way a lot of people are viewing it rather than forcing society to adhere to these sort of updated and more modern gender expressions was more so having society respond to the realities that there are more expressions of gender and gender roles than what we have typically associated with femininity masculinity and it's not a matter of forcing society to fit whatever mold it's essentially putting that categorization towards things that already exist and merely bringing them into the mainstream and acknowledging it and also affording those people the same protections and rights that you would give anyone else that maybe falls more distinctly into the male or female gender identity category so again that was how I would think for all the trans people here when you go to a bar and you interact with the opposite sex do you immediately tell them that you are trans or do you keep that a secret? that has nothing to do with how I interact with people and tell it well it kind of does it kind of does like if you're saying so you get in a relationship and you interact with the opposite sex you hide your biological sex you think that's kind of getting a relationship that's different wait are you I think that Alex is a little confused here with what's in other people's pants wait Alex that would be relevant information to disclose if you are going to engage in sexual activity with that individual yeah but to say that they wait do you really think that trans people should walk up and say hi I am a woman but I have a dick yes I think on a day you want me to go to a bar and be like hello this is my vagina I'm Maddie okay what about a day can I have a drink please on your dating app do you put that you're trans or do you put that you're a biological female I think you should put that you're trans do you say that you have a penis if you only have one ball do you like specify that if I'm like my labia is this long Maddie don't be mean okay Alex doesn't have any balls let's be real oh I'm sorry Alex I'm sorry I just follow up on this is like yeah this is like personal insults which is like I wanted to build off that's all on her guys this is personal insults what's your modus go ahead modus he's in beta so oh no the sexual harasser oh no I wanted to build off what Maddie was saying and I have a vagina oh I can't call the girl what's my squares not lighting up all right go ahead modus yeah it's all sexual harassment it's not cool um hold on let me check I wanted to build off what you were saying about the structure of society and how like we are making more allowances for people who don't fit within these neatly constructed categories the thing is a lot of these categories historically come from a imposition top down by colonial powers a lot of it spread through christianity and since that was the religion of those empires primarily different sub fractions and whatever this was imposed on the people overwriting their own native expressions of gender that existed within those places just because people had third genders and differing ideas of what it meant to be a man or a woman no longer mattered when you're being forced to accept that at gunpoint and this is what we're kind of seeing now is more a relaxation of that sort of top down imposition to a here is more what people are what people want to be and there doesn't seem to be any along any sort of harm cause by letting them just be who they are but there is I think there is provable harm by allowing people well there is harm because you have to put it on your dating app who you are so you need to why do you do that why do you tell the truth on a dating app do you tell people that you're fun on dating apps that's lying Alex is fun actually don't say that but I'm saying do you understand why you had to say that on a dating app why you don't want to lie about that and why that would be yes because it's sexually relevant yeah because it filters out the conversation is such an irrelevant thing but I want to respond to Randall Lotus and then after that can I respond please should dating profiles just be pictures of genitalia so like when you had these people these western you know colonialists coming over to the Americans they observed like gender expectations in indigenous cultures and they called it bar dash or bar dash and it was like a derogatory term for you know these people who engage like effeminate men right and the idea that like we would rename this and like retake the idea of like effeminate men as something positive is something that arose in the 90s as the term to spare was coined so I think that we have to really really careful when we talk about historical cultures and societies because I think of anything we end up engaging in this kind of like reverse colonialism where we project our modern like progressive values of gender and the idea that you can have third genders back onto these historical societies so like we look at like ancient Greece Mesopotamia these areas did they have third genders not probably in the way that we think of gender when we look at like how they referred like Unix and stuff we might call that a third gender now but at their time they might have used the word as like a derogatory way to like refer to others or to refer to like homosexual males and that's not necessarily something that like we think is admirable or worth emulating or even like a true third gender so I think it's like we have to be really careful with historical analysis I'd like to actually this further strengthens my argument because it shows how this stuff is way more socially related and way less tied to the distinct biological these things are coming about because of how are people are reacting to the biology but then primarily through their how they're interacting with each other okay why can't we say I'll let you go in a second I promise I promise why can't because you've you've been very polite and you've been skipped over like 12 times I'm starting to feel bad for you but this is important okay no so so why not instead of a third gender why don't we make distinctions on different types of women or different types of men this is a trans woman it depends on how they want to be identified so then it just becomes subjective but if it just becomes subjective if it's purely subjective so how are we all supposed to be in society think of it like a spectrum think of it like a spectrum and like if someone's right in the middle where they just don't identify with one or the other and also so there's a spectrum of woman right so I don't know there's like a trans woman all the way over here and then but if you were to say that there's also that spectrum extends to man there's an in between where there's neither one or the other also I just I just don't understand why why can't the binary take unit of itself like the whole spectrum people can choose not to engage with it well we I know but I'm the same wait hold on it just wait we already have it makes it a lot distinguishing categories we already have these distinguishing categories this is why we say cis gender or transgender like we already have that but just if there are different categories doesn't mean that trans women are not women and cis women are women just like you can have varying degrees of woman and that's what I'm trying to say is like they're two different types of women there's a trans woman there's a cis one like why can't we put it in the category what category of man so you fit into one second wait hold on because I think I said something she didn't agree with no I think there's a really interesting response to this and like there's a good argument for third gender and that's that I think a lot of the gendered expectations regarding womanhood have to do with like pregnancy and childbirth and child rearing like that's the reality is that like women for a lot of reasons you know neurologically and else wise are like good at raising children especially infinite care on average right and so naturally our culture has developed to view that as like a female virtue is like being able to take care of children but trans women like obviously cannot get pregnant so I think it makes sense for there to be like a gender category that is worth aspiring to that doesn't involve giving birth as one of its main tenants or one of the ways that it's shaped around so I think that like one of the reasons why you might have a third gender is to give these people who are gender nonconforming some kind of archetype that's worth aspiring ports and I think that's what you see historically like in indigenous cultures to the extent that it can be called a gender it is a role for people who are gender nonconforming that allows them to be productive and to give back to society as spiritual leaders or you know doctors that doesn't require them to engage with the traditional romance and childbearing by that logic though we would have to say that a woman who can't get pregnant needs to be put in a third gender I don't yeah I just I'm not sure I totally necessarily so like yeah I mean it gets it gets too complicated but like I would say that in general it's good to have like categories that people can aspire to if they have a let me so some of the gender would be like wouldn't that just be non-binary I think we really should let Alex talk yeah yeah okay I'm sorry yeah Alex go ahead I'm using every single I'm so sorry that I have so sorry okay so I just want to very quickly address what Lotus said because I've been meaning to do it early and then I'd like to get back to the initial topic at hand and flip it to April Hunter so first addressing Lotus so I think you're I don't think you're doing on purpose but I think you're accidentally making a strong man argument I don't think anyone on my side or at least myself cares what people do with their body I don't think we care what you identify as that's your choice as an adult the issue rises when you say that other people have to do or say certain things that go in line with your decisions or beliefs and then especially I'm not saying you're doing this but a lot of people on your side shame people and calling transphobic if they just disagree with you that that's what I think people on my side have an issue with now going back to the discussion I was having with Hunter and April I'm glad that I asked you the clarifying question because then I would have accidentally strongly on your position but it seems like you basically agreed there's generally two genders so I guess I would want to flip it to the whole panel is there anyone on this panel who actually thinks there's more than two genders like right now in this culture what is what is the other gender then it's a question because I don't believe this but well I I don't know no hold on whatever whatever people I choose to identify as no it doesn't really matter it doesn't really matter so you believe there are more than two genders I don't care if we're on the same team that is incorrect Lotus I'm sorry gender must refer to something or else it becomes completely incoherent and then how do you distinguish the difference between personal expression and how one interprets themselves it relates to femininity or masculinity in that spectrum because then how do you distinguish between the person who has an internal because it's a spectrum you can have any number of points on that line yes well the notion of femininity and masculinity is not just like in one category of the others the expressions of masculinity vary across cultures yeah so to say it has to be one or the other is is also kind of disregarding that that also isn't this like universal constant okay so what would it take for there to be a I need to I need to just cut in here really quickly because I know this is kind of a side point but gender refers to two things especially in the way in which I like to use it which is there's the external form of gender which is the social construct and then there's the internal perception you have of yourself that aligns with some aspect of that spectrum masculinity, feminine which we call gender identity yeah gender identity sure but it's an internal perception and the external social construct informs the internal perception that you have of yourself which means that gender cannot in fact be whatever you want it to be because last I checked there are people with xenogenders who claim that they're like a vampire or something nobody can have an internal perception of being a vampire okay so when does the internal when does the internal at what point does the internal perception of your gender identity become a new social construct that would be we would consider a third gender like at what point well what is gender right so if somebody says I really like agree on it it's yeah I think when people agree with that but it's more so like well how many people I really like cars cars are my favorite cars are my favorite thing ever it doesn't then mean that you liking cars means that now you're car gender because again gender has to refer to something and that is goes back to the social view that we have the spectrum in regards to masculinity and femininity but I think you have an argument if you say Alice go ahead I always want to clarify everyone's positions to make sure again I'm not strumming anyone so who on this panel actually thinks there's more than two genders okay so just okay just you two okay so my question is what they are though my question yeah how many first of all how many genders are there that would be my follow-up question to that it's a spectrum if you were to think of it like that's like how many colors are there yeah exactly how many colors are there so really quick I would actually say that this logically makes more sense it's a lot more logically coherent to say that oh well gender is subjective therefore there's an infinite amount rather than what Hunter and I think April are saying no my part of saying that I'm saying that there needs to be some sort of objective thing that that we all agree is a third gender and I'm asking like how do we turn what that is I would say that the problem it's just a consensus the problem with tying something only to like identification is that it ceases to have all boundaries and can include anything so like the actual social utility of having words or categories at all is that people agree on them so I would just say that like something becomes relevant and a thing when the broader culture agrees on it so I would say that like you can look at progressive subcultures in the United States and like look at how these people operate regarding you know in regards to gender and I would say that within these subcultures there are more than two genders and that's not true for like the broader culture but I would say that like within that culture you could say that they distinguish between many different genders let me ask a follow up question to Lotus and Maddie cakes okay so you guys believe there's infinite genders but why not just say that there's two genders and you can be a little bit of both you can be like largely masculine a little bit of feminine which I think we all agree on like why does there need to be infinite genders this is the difference between but you could say gender is the poles like we're a little bit of between the poles but the poles themselves if you have a little but the honest the honest answer is that like if a lot of what this debate stems from is that you're asking someone say you're filling out a survey or you're trying to be categorized in like the society's frame of reference or maybe you're applying for a job whatever and it says do you check female do you check male if you're someone who you're like I have a mix of both I don't really identify necessarily 100% with one or the other what how do you then express that and I mean we're as human beings it's natural for us to want to put things in boxes to categorize to better understand like we look for that we naturally are natural inclinations to look for patterns and other things like that our brains are wired for that yeah but with gender the fact that it is a spectrum it it kind of goes contrary to how we look to identify things and assign values to things so that's that's sort of what the difference is is that you can't for people that can't definitively say I fall into female I fall into the male category and that's why I think we've been using gender non-binary non-conforming gender fluid more as a catch-all to account for the additional expressions well I think what April said is very good but let me just let me just make this point I think what April said is actually pretty true like when you basically when you have no parameters words cease to have meanings so that's basically if I come into this debate and you're like what's your name I'm like I have infinite names you're not going to be able to have a conversation with you right it's just it's the same thing so right now when you fill out a government form pretty much any form there's you know I prefer not to answer right that's an option that that person can do but to say there's like 50 different genders or 100 genders and there's infinite genders it just and they have a name one of them by the way they have a name to single other one what is the other thing male or I just said gender non-binary no non-binary is not a gender people identify it as a gender they I can identify as non-binary but it is a rejection of the gender binary they are I agree with what you have sociologists medical professionals disagree with you okay okay so so why don't Mary is why itself why might I have to be gender and why not self-identity like why why does it have to be gender because I that is a great question Kevin that is an excellent question and you know what that is my exact issue that I've been having here with the Xeno gender conversation which is what makes a gender identity different from another type of identity we all are sitting here and we have varying degrees of identity identifies a streamer I also identify as a man so what makes me a man and not me streamer gender that is the point of reference by which when I say that I'm a man I am referring to the socially constructed view or spectrum of masculinity or femininity gender needs to be in relation to that in order for it to be coherent essentially yeah otherwise very well about meanings yeah I agree with that that's also something real in the world so wait let me oh Matty do you want to take this? can I talk? no it's okay no sure we're ready to go for it what do you have to say Matty I mean even talking a lot I haven't gotten a chance and anytime I have you guys shut me down so I just have the three questions what? can you get to the point? what do you want to say? go ahead Brittany you just have to ignore yeah okay no I'm trying to you guys are all mad at Brittany because she's the oddest one here and she's actually a female dude where did you even get are you back from harassing some of the women? let's go I think I'm the hardest one here from the record but let's just be honest I don't think I should be mad at Matty I don't think I should be mad I don't think I should be mad I don't think I should be mad I don't think I should be mad I don't think I should be mad yeah let's just let Brittany I just have three questions I have three questions since we have two of them here and I'm just trying to get a better understanding because my brain has been broken and never thought about these things so one I want to know if these people were abused as children two I want to know why someone would advertise their dick if they are trying to be seen as a woman and three I want to know if they are seeing themselves as a lesbian since most of them seem to be into women that's all I want to know Brittany not safe for work means it's a naked picture I don't know if anyone told us let's hear let's let's hear the last bit from Brittany and then I promise we'll come over to you Maddie or I'll say her sorry not you is naked pictures okay well I wasn't talking to you Maddie why do you keep answering when I'm not talking to you all right to the two trans people that could actually answer it can you answer my questions please and I'm actually being good faith I promise you I am being good faith I would like to have a better understanding that is all well Hunter was born a woman so three I know he was oh well I hope you're not going to start sexually harassing me then because that would be pretty uncomfortable yeah if you're a hotter if you had a tight ass I get to see maybe but you're just ugly little do you put that on your dating profile I like that let's go to the more serious question no Brittany I think you asked more than one question I have three questions let's go and with one of the two let's answer that wasn't asking about no whether or not someone was molested well I think that's important though I'm bi so I don't really care all that much it's more just a matter of personal attraction and what was the third one it was yeah if you see yourself as a lesbian why somebody would advertise their dick if they are trying to be seen as a woman and if you were yeah that doesn't actually but if you were abused some way as a child I was not abused okay um I I'm I'm bi queer whatever you want to call it I'm more just attracted to people on the basis of personality than anything else and as far as like advertising something there's a difference between advertising something versus having it on your personal twitter account behind multiple layers of not safe for work labels let's advertise and people can have like whatever expressions they want of their sexuality like we live in a free society I don't think the question is are they allowed to have it I think the question is you as a woman though right? your whole goal is trying to make sure people see you as a woman you do everything imaginable to be seen as a woman what because those aren't correlated to somebody being a woman hey I'm not a woman I'm gonna show you why I'm not a woman why would you do that is it because like you're just trying to get money off of it are you ever going to complete the surgery what what is it I don't know what people want to engage with with you I'm a red blooded American male okay I'm a Texan red blooded American male all right it's that simple I have a penis easy do you ever plan on getting rid of it I don't ask people about their penis no I'm curious do you ever I'm just curious do you don't ever plan on getting rid of it you want to keep it why why I don't believe in destroying healthy tissue okay you've got you've gotten yourself boobs did you get boobs yeah you got boobs okay that's I have no fucking idea wait did Brittany actually get a boob job or something wait what this is old news get over it all right let's move on to the next topic I don't know I want to know can we not like ask each other about it no I don't yeah that's that's so weird personal questions aside I would love to respond to the things that Hunter and Alex said get it cut down it's really annoying like what the fuck I now understand why Brittany clicked on that photo because she's obsessed with genitalia no I never even knew that shit was you know that exactly she's spent like forever talking about this and he's like making shit talk to us she loves her dick I didn't know it was a loud you freaking indians I put something all the time and never have I gone why does your father you that much this this person tricked me into freaking uh talking to them thinking I was an only fans girl I thought I was an only fans girl and it ended up being an only fan did a dick kill your family it killed my brain did we get off this like dick it looks like so relevant to that I don't have to take it out of my head and freaking just I don't know why we're talking about this I just want to know why I just want to know why Alex that's a great question if you want to be a woman and what kind of people are into that too because they're sick as hell you don't think okay freaking thing hey I'm going to be into this girl but they have a dick is that so you don't have to have a strap on what is that maybe you know some people are some people probably like what they like between those two don't think shame this is a deranged side of it actually you think you know that Alex can we go back to the point that Hunter and Alex from I think you take a lot of strap on's I'm sure you do rampant lotus really creepy that you want to know about my sex life and that your picture on me with a strap on that's what it looks like just the way you act you look like a girl gives you a strap on anally that's just what you look like you know hey we're your fans have you ever had your have you ever had your you know that's where like the orgasm button is for me yes can we keep it on that's not the only the only way we're going to bring this back to the question that Hunter and Alex were talking about rampant lotus suggested it thank you rampant lotus go ahead Alex I think you had the original question or rampant lotus sounded like you wanted I had a response before we got go for it off on to the weeds on that so in response to the whole xenogenders thing like you can have an infinite number of points on a spectrum without even engaging with that it's just even if you're just drawing a spectrum between masculinity and femininity and possibly a triangle with the rejection of all of those thereof like you still have a number of infinite points between those two points between those two modes hence by modal versus by variant so your perception of what it means to be a man does not correlate to it's correlated with other men's perceptions of being men but it's not the same as so Alex you're a man you identify as a man but how you feel about yourself as a man is not the same as hunter as Kevin or as any other guy like they can all differ hence infinite points on a spectrum and when we're dealing with things by modally as far as like spots on a form like for that purpose why not just ask people their sex or ask how people identify and for the most part people you'll you'll do just fine with male female intersex etc and on the gender front you'll be fine with man woman non-binary and insert other I don't I don't know I don't care etc yeah I mean okay let me respond to that Lotus so I think that makes things like unnecessarily confusing like for example if we have someone who's like a mixed race like they're half white half black right they don't identify as a new race they just say yeah I'm half white half black right so if you're like you know you're partially masculine partially feminine you're 50-50 you can be like yeah you know I'm a little bit of both I'm a little bit of male I'm a little bit of female but those people refer to themselves as bi gender sure but then you just becomes like when you just have infinite genders with no limit on it it just becomes like words like kind of like what sorry what's your name April said words cease to have meanings like going back to the example I gave earlier if we come into this debate and you're like oh what's your name I'm like well I have infinite names you're not going to be able to refer to these just going to be like what the actual it's not a matter of you having infinite names it would be you have an infinite number of names to choose from you're choosing a name your name is Alex that is the name that you have the name that you have chosen the name that you have chosen not to change but that doesn't mean you have infinite names it just means you could have infinite names so once you choose your gender you can't change it then it's up to you yeah it's just like you can change your name if you decided you wanted to change your name from Kevin to something else go for it let me let me post the question like this to lotus okay uh you obviously so for example let's say hypothetically speaking I uh inject a bunch of melanin in my skin I get dreads all the cliche stereotypes would I actually become black no because it's not a socially constructed form of identity I mean there's there's a little bit of an element black people I'm sure blowing up I mean people would you know serve people would treat you as black it if if there was a magical button that you could push that would change your biology entirely to that like would it matter I mean if other people don't don't know would it would it matter it really only depends on how they're interacting with you well if I put down black in my college application wouldn't that be a little messed up just to get an advantage I mean there's a difference between how you sincerely identify and your outward expression and all of that like it's there's a lot of nuance there yeah but so what about who's identifying as a woman to get an advantage in swimming so I mean people can identify their gender and a different way to get an advantage and sincerely help I was honestly I was a yeah that's bad for you but how do we know someone's being sincere how do we know someone's not abusing it as well can we just like talk about melanin but this is the saying sincere about anything we don't I just give an example real quick because this is the same way in which we engage with all forms of self-identification and I love to bring up religion in debates just like this because there are people my parents are one of them or some of them who identify as Christians they are strong sincere believers in the Christian faith at the end of the day odds are as Christians they are going to want to take certain steps to present that fact to you they might go to church every week they might wear Christian shirts they might listen to Christian music they're probably going to make some kind of an effort to present that however somebody can still internally be a Christian and never go to church because it is not the actions that define that thing it is the internal perception that ultimately holds the weight so when somebody says I so when somebody says I'm a Christian I don't know if they're being sincere or not I don't but we don't know in any case of self-identification this is really no different the difference it is slightly different because actually it's quite different because there's no like kind of advantage to being a Christian or anything like that however you're kidding right if you are a man there's like social privilege a company with being Christian largely yeah it's it's not it's we're comparing apples to oranges wait no that this is currently relevant race and gender weren't apples to oranges but religion is actually those those are very good comparisons but yeah like if identify as a woman and I am allowed to compete in female sports I will have a native oh my god over what it's a very fair point I will have an I was an NCAA athlete and like I competed in women's sports and like I can again exceptions don't know I I'm saying as a woman who competed in women's sports and who I competed at the highest level we don't give a shit what genitalia you had when you were assigned at birth we don't know I'm not oh no could you guys stop fucking pretending you give a shit about women's sports for like two minutes I love it the first one I am but I I care about women I'm not sure about women I'm not sure about women I'm not sure about women I'm not sure about women bullshit bullshit so many women's sports jokes listen how do I care about women is this bullshit this is not this is not a fair form of argumentation here because what Alex is getting at is that there are issues wedge issues specifically like sports that reveal certain complications that come along with accepting trans people as the gender they are again this goes back to the difference between sex and gender if somebody has a penis and they have gone through a biologically male puberty then odds are they are going to be advantaged over cisgendered women this is why when we're talking about trans sports it is really based on the sport there are some sports where you can have a meaningful competition between trans women and cis women there are other sports where that will not be feasible and that's just a fact I totally Maddie Maddie what sport did you play Maddie what sport did you play I played volleyball okay so I'm 6'2 190 pounds and if I had played volleyball my entire life as a male then I transitioned and I started to play female volleyball do you think that's fair I also have almost 40 inch girls that were I played against girls who were 6'6 and incredible have you played against girls who were almost had a 40 inch vertical and could bench press you know it's weird I don't tend to ask women about their genitalia or like I don't tend to ask women like what sex they were assigned at birth so who knows maybe you can be serious if I if I played volleyball my entire life I do play beach volleyball on a regular basis but it's good for you that's different right so but if I played volleyball on a regular basis I'm 6'2 I have a 6'8 wing span I can deadlift 600 pounds I have a 40 inch vertical this straw man is riveting how is this a straw man this is not a straw man this is ridiculous no because you're you're evoking something that doesn't actually like I promise no it's ridiculous I'm saying it's just stupid I'm serious it would be fair hold on all I'm saying is you think it would be fair if I trained volleyball my entire life with my physical stature and I pretended to be a woman and I went on the court you don't think I would destroy every single one of you are you kidding me so do you think do you realize that there are certain restrictions in place for like hormone levels that like so that if someone's playing in those like competitive level sports no they're not yeah no oh wait absolutely they are they're like absolutely fucking not I've already reaped the benefits I've already reaped the benefits of having as lovely as it is as clearly I want that one in sports let's let Maddie finish and then we'll come to you April go ahead Maddie let's let her finish her snarky ass comment yeah snarky ass comment yeah so anyways all right Brittany thank you but yeah again as someone who literally was an athlete and like played against these people that's like to me that's like saying you know you know who shouldn't play basketball tall people they have a natural advantage or how there were 10,000 articles of had webbed fingers and toes so he had this natural physical advantage and everyone was like awesome wow that's great so like I'm just saying well Alex I thought if I were allowed to finish you might if you could follow along that would be wonderful thank you very dull thank you oh my god so like what I'm saying is this no but here's what I'm saying when it comes to competitive sports whether it's the NCAA whether it comes to the International Olympic Association International Olympic Committee they have certain protocols in place because they want to ensure fairness and in the case of that swimmer that you had brought up if you would ask her if you look at her swim times and everything like when she started transitioning when she started taking HRT she got weaker and her times got worse like it it physically it absolutely matters I'm sorry what sport did you play I do I want to hear from April he was a patient here look look the reason this doesn't matter is I'm a competitive power lifter right and I've competed in physique competitions bodybuilding I've always done it naturally that said there's certain protocol set in place where if you take steroids for example right which is just a bunch of a lot of exogenous testosterone after you come off the steroids you still reap a lot of the benefits of having those steroids as opposed to if you were just natural the entire time so it's the same exact thing with a guy like this is he had he reaped all the benefits of going through puberty as a man and then after that yes maybe his times decrease compared to when he was fully masculine and full of testosterone but he still has a very unfair advantage just like so it's the fact that he went through puberty wait wait wait hold on hold on just like just like if if I competed in bodybuilding as a natural and I competed against somebody who used to be on steroids I would get destroyed because they already have benefits from that so for you is the distinction then is the distinction then that this person has gone through puberty as a man and that to you is why like is that the defining factor one of the odd years of increased bone density of testosterone flooding through your system but in this swimmer's case it was not 25 years yeah 20 years 20 years just a thing we haven't been in so long it fell off subject if it would have been different we have the way they use in beta if they use formal walkers it's okay it's been a while and also one more thing too wait wait wait sorry one more thing just let me let me okay go ahead go ahead go ahead yeah because like we actually have information we have good studies on this from the British Journal of Sports Medicine on just the general trans population and it finds that like trans women maintain a lot of things like muscle mass and bone density they do not maintain but density that is actually actually accurate no wait wait wait bone density look at actually even wait bone density is almost fucking irrelevant when it comes to actual sports in some instances it matters but it is not nearly as relevant as people make it out to be what matters and what what April is trying to say is simply that even after you go through gender transition as far as hormones and whatnot trans women who have already gone through a male puberty retain some of those benefits that is a fact of the matter they retain many benefits why not just a myth and here's but no I haven't finished okay so this is there are two parts to this all right and one is that in the general population so people who aren't even training to maintain these things right so people who are just letting it go to waste you know or letting it disappear like it still retains some of these advantages up to three years into transition so if you have a 12-month limit after which you are allowed to compete that wouldn't even be you know on parity for like normal you know non-athletes but there's a second part of this which is like much more important and that's that even if even if we proved that trans women were like less competitive than cis women so like you know they absolutely couldn't compete with cis women that doesn't necessarily mean that women's sports leagues should be like forced to take trans women in in the same sense that like if you had a man and he cut off his toes he might suck at sports with women but just because he sucks just because it's fair doesn't mean that he gets a right to participate in women's sports so I think that like what actually matters is like whether or not you're forcing people to buy into your idea your gender philosophy and I think that's the real problem is you force people to buy into it so I shared an article that was posted by the ACLU that talks about myths common myths associated with transgender athletes highly recommend all of you guys take a little look at it it cites multiple studies and basically dispels a lot of the bullshit lies that are being propagated here and again I have to like let's not let's not it cites scientific data is the ACLU a scientific organization? are you a scientific? scientific articles yeah those are scientific articles that they know how to what's legitimate and what's not they do because you can check out the article and judge for yourself when it cites specific articles it cites specific studies that are done and peer reviewed that basically dispel all the bullshit we're hearing here and I get I bet you doc pretending you care about women's sports we all fucking know you don't don't you fucking care about the women playing the sports just because I don't necessarily enjoy all this playing with themselves yeah well I'm curious with this hold on hold on athletic type hold on hold on one second I want to hear from Alex really or it could be others but is it true you don't care about women's sports it's just I'm fascinated because Maddie brought it up so is it true that you guys I wouldn't say it's like my number one passion but yeah like I think it's completely unfair I think you were talking to the other Alex I've I've dated oh sorry you got it right well that's not what I'm doing playing with fire I'm playing with fire oh okay yeah I've dated a lot of female athletes and I think it's fundamentally unfair oh because you like fuck some female athletes so you must care about women's sports oh guys I can tell you my favorite women's track and field athletes because I can find a lot of I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry it doesn't athletes is totally irrelevant to the actual point I want to clarify your position Maddie do you think there's absolutely no advantage to a man who transitions to a woman competing in female sports if they are taking if they're on hormone therapy and they are at the transition level that experts have established qualifies them to compete in women's sports then I don't I don't find it any more of an advantage than I do of a woman who is a cis gendered born woman who is 6-7 competing in volleyball I can debuff this right here I can debuff this right here's why no no no no no Alex wait wait wait wait please I can debuff this right here unless Alex is willing listen Kevin okay just unless Alex is willing to defer to you I can come with you Alex I would prefer Okay, he differs to me. Yes. Okay. So here's the thing is, what about height? Is height correlated with testosterone? Yes or no? I don't know how to answer that. No, it's actually not. It's with other factors. A lot of it is genetically linked unrelated to like specific hormone. And that's debunked in the fact that there are women who are super tall as well. So like, I don't know. It's not like, Oh, if you have testosterone, then you're going to be tall. No, it's not. It's not scientifically accurate. No, but also once you are at a certain height, it's not like you shrink when you start to take certain hormone replacement therapy. So I'd encourage you. There's this fascinating thing that we're called the castrades back in like the 1600s or 1700s. They were actually these like young boys who it was very not cool. But you know, in order to retain their singing voices, their masters would like castrate. And what happened as a result of that is they would actually maintain their boyish features and stuff, but they would grow disproportionately tall because testosterone isn't necessarily a driver of height. Exactly. So then what's your point? You're saying, Oh, no, if people, a man's transitioning to become a woman to identify, they're going to be shorter. My point is, is that simply having hormone replacement or start not or taking estrogen, if you're a man, that's not going to reverse things that happen prior to that, such as being tall. If any of you can say an example of research, if any of you can cite direct research that shows that trans transgender female individuals have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition, please do because there's a fact that that is not. No, that there's a fact that there is no consistent, there is no consistent research that shows that. And in fact, it shows quite the opposite. Literally, wait, can I just read this? Link to plenty of studies. You think you're helping female athletes, you're not. This is bullshit. It's not about, no, because I'm not, because I'm not, I'm not, I'm not here to, wait, I'm not exactly, you don't care about them. Wait, no, you are actively harming them Maddie. Yeah, I'm actually harming them. Okay. Yes. It's funny because we're actually pro women's rights here and you're anti women's rights here. Maddie hates women. Let's hear from you. No, you don't hate women. You just you're letting your ideology letting your ideas for women. Forgive me, but go ahead and hunter. Okay. Three physicians conducted a retrospective review of medical records. Let's see what they found for the first two years after starting hormones, the trans women in their review were able to do 10% more push-ups and 6% more sit-ups than their cisgender female counterparts. After two years, they were fairly equivalent to cisgender women is what this guy said. They're running times declined. However, they were also able to outpace the cisgender women as well. Let's see if I can find this. Did Maddie actually say that trans don't have an advantage? Is that because I was black and out through a lot of what she says? Yeah, that's her position. Also the article that I said is a meta analysis of 24 studies. And I'll read the last part because I just found out this 36 months, there are still lean body mass strength and muscle area still remains above that of cisgender women. So that's an analysis of trans women at the top of every the why aren't trans women? There are a lot of trans women in sports, but also what I'm reading it says their running times did decline as they began hormone treatment, but two years on trans women were still 12% faster than their cisgender peers. And yet we don't see it as a massive problem in sports right now. We have one swimmer, one swimmer that people are losing their minds over even though they had no problem. They had no problems with her when she was finishing middle of the pack. I would like to point out when she started winning, people have hang on, I want to point out a flaw in this methodology. This is fucking stupid. Trans panic, it's bullshit. Hang on, I want to point out a problem with this methodology. This is comparing it against women in general. It's not comparing it against women who have similar physical specifications to the post transition trans women. I'm curious, because I don't even think that trans people competing against athletes of similar physical body structure builds, they're going to perform similarly. There's no that's not the case though. So men, just by going through puberty, they're going to have way wider clavicles for example, right? They're going to have broader shoulders. My point is women with a similar build women with wider clavicles because they're not going to have it the same way. Absolutely. So they're women that have that. Just the thing about the bimodal distribution that we talked about earlier. Remember how we talked about how there's a lot of overlap between men and women? That's true at the averages. But when you look at the extremes of men and women, they're pretty far apart. Athletes are like a perfect example of this. Athletes exist at the extremes. If you're a trans woman and you're engaging in sports, not only are you more likely to have already gone into sports because you've had some advantage, some natural inclination towards them, but also you're going to be training in a way that maximally retains any benefits you have from testosterone. The studies that I have, because unfortunately there's not a lot of trans athletes, they are comparing like regular trans people to like regular cis people. They're not comparing athletes. But the difference we expect to actually widen with athletes because of the tendency to retain benefits. So I have a question. I have a quick question. It's a super really quick question. I'm just asking then. So because it seems to me that the problem a lot of people have is that once a child has gone through puberty and develops that way, that that seems to be what provides the advantage. Do we feel that that would still be the case if that child was given puberty blockers and then transitioned to the gender with which they identify so they have not gone through puberty of the opposing sex? Is that what your sticking point is? Is my question. It would be less outrageous. It would be less people on my side. At least myself would argue that it's basically child abuse to give someone under 18 puberty blockers. That's fucking wrong. So first and foremost, puberty blockers are given to kids quite frequently. They've been FDA approved now for decades and not to mention they're also given to cis kids for other conditions as well. Puberty blockers have been relatively demonstrated to be mostly safe and effective. Of course, there are going to be risks as there are with any type of medication. However, if you compare the risk to the benefit, the risk is possible negative side effects. The benefit is that child not fucking killing themselves. So there are benefits and there are positives. There are negatives and benefits and whatnot. But this is aside the point. When we're talking about the sports thing, why is this so hard to understand that? Yes, if you have gone through a male puberty, Maddie, and you have developed as a biological male, then yes, you will most likely forever retain an advantage. But you're right. I think that if somebody's trans and they realize that they're trans very early on and they've gone puberty blockers and they never go through a male puberty, then yes, they would probably be right in line with cisgender women. Probably not forever. They'll go away eventually, but it probably takes too long for athletes to want to participate. If it takes eight years, these people are not going to the Olympics. We should make a separate category and a separate island for all those people and they can just go there and have their little civilization and separate by equal. Brittany proposing a part-time, awesome. I thought you were about to say a separate trans women category. I would be. We are going to go into Q&A shortly. Do want to say, folks, if you have a question, we've got actually a ton. I'm going to say we probably can't take any new questions. Our guests are linked in the description. If you'd like to hear more from them at their own channels, and that includes at the podcast, we have them linked in our podcast description box as well. Can I just ask one follow-up question to Maddie, please? I want to see kind of where you stand on this. What about combat sports? Do you think that trans women should be allowed to compete in cis women combat sports like MMA? I'm familiar with one trans fighter who competed and there's controversy around her. Again, I defer to the medical experts who draw the lines of distinction for whether or not they have the necessary like hormonal levels or whatever. All I know is that there are safeguards in place to ensure that if someone is competing in a sport in the gender which they identify, I defer to what the medical experts say is safe and acceptable. I'm not qualified to make that. I'm okay with that if medical experts are saying that this is something that is safe and where this person is at whatever type of level at their transition, that it's as even playing field as it could be. But again, I'm not a medical professional. So for me to say, yeah, I support what those medical professionals deem as the necessary threshold. Well, let's assume that someone waits three years after the transition. What is your personal opinion? We understand you're not medical expert, but what do you stand on this? Should they be allowed to compete in combat sports? I feel like I've answered that. But again, I think as long as, no, but I'm saying if we're talking about it should be an even playing field, because that's what people care about is that it's as even as possible that no one has given like an unfair advantage. And the way that we're measuring whether or not there is an unfair advantage in a lot of cases is how far the long they are in the transition or what their hormonal levels are because those are going to impact things like strength, like bone density, like other things that are going to have an impact, especially an impact when you're dealing with a combat sport. So I think I would say, yes, testosterone level, there's pills you can take to temporary lower your level. So I mean that you can just, yeah, but except that when you're doing in a professional sport, you're tested more regularly, especially if you're a trans athlete. I suggest you look up what that process looks like, because you aren't just tested right before. Very familiar. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because you still retain so much of your strength. Do you know who I would say as long as you don't, you really do not. No, you really do. I am so surprised. You said you have a durian biology masters. Are you kidding? You're arguing like you have a master's in physiology. You don't know this. You think you know more than her? Are you serious? The audacity. Against people of similar build, there's not much of a, there's an insignificant difference. There's no statistical significance. When I'm saying statistical significance, I'm talking about comparing the data. There is a less than 5% chance that the entire data set you have acquired was acquired by chance. Do you guys know who Matt Crock is and Jenae Crock? Probably not. So I look, I encourage the audience to look it up. Matt Crock was a world champion power lifter who transitioned to a female. I interviewed her actually on my channel. Oh, nice. Well, I mean, hey, Matt slash Jenae Crock is a legend. But anyway, so Jenae Crock, yeah, it is a trans woman now. And she takes all the hormones and all that type of stuff. I'm a pretty advanced power lifter as a natural guy. And she would destroy me when it comes to lifts. Absolutely destroy me. So to think that she could potentially compete against cis-gendered women, I don't think that's a position she holds, by the way. That's insane because, and ramp it, Lotus, you should know this, if you have a master's degree in physiology that once you build up muscle fibers, then because, because of the myostatin there, it'll actually, or the myonucleus, I should say, the muscle memory, it will stay there. I bet their point is cis women might lose a lot of it, too. So like, what's the point? Exceptions don't make the rules. Matt, I want to ask you one more follow up question. Okay, you said yes, at the end of your end of your statement. Do you think the cis women should be notified that the person they're fighting is used to be man? I don't know. Do you typically notify people about the status of your penis before you like do a sport? Like, you know, in soccer, where they check your nails to make sure they aren't too long. Do they also like cup your balls to make sure they're there? A woman can literally die if she gets punched hard and like permanent brain down. A woman could die from being punched by a woman, like a cis woman, too, dude. Like, and it's just silly. And Kevin, I love hearing about this like anecdotal thing, but I would, I would probably predict there are plenty of cis women that could out lift you as well. Also, the flora and the cis woman data. Jump into the Q&A. I want to say, folks, we have a lot of questions here. We're going to move as fast as we can. If you have to go. So for example, I know Alex playing with fire. I mentioned that it was probably going to be about two hours. I could not stop you guys. It just looked like you guys were, I enjoyed the passion. And so if I ever seem cranky and I get frustrated over people speaking over each other, I promise I appreciate your guys's passion. This has been, I thought it was going to be good, but it's been fantastic. Seriously, we appreciate your guys's gusto. This one coming in from sunflower says, let's see, they says taft has, do you try to be like an anime character? I don't understand this. Do people, do they have to do that? Why are you doing that with your hand? Maybe this is relevant to the thing that I said on your last show. Cause I said that like trans women try to emulate anime characters. I don't watch anime. So no, I guess this is the starting answer. You got it. Summer, thanks for your question says to the left side, how many of you would propagate Steven Pinker's blank slate theory? The blank slate theory, I think he means like the, what Steven Pinker was like, objecting against the idea that you're born and you are, you could be either male or female, you're like a blank slate. He's saying how many of you would object to that? The idea seems like there is an overemphasis on socialization and a lot of the ideas that I'm hearing. I think it's just like the tabula rasa kind of theory, which I'm not a fan of personally. Yeah, I don't know if I'd subscribe to the blank slate theory necessarily from what I've read with early childhood development experts. A decent portion of it does tend to be innate, but there are other social learned behaviors and things that probably play a role. But it's not like one or the other. I think that's a combination of nurture and nature. You got it. Ann, Summer, thanks for your second. Oh, I didn't, you're right. Sorry about that. In terms of like people's personalities and the like, those are heavily influenced by the environment that they are in. In terms of people's physiology, it's largely determined by, well, exposures and things in development and also how well can they act upon it with the things in their environment. So if you have someone who needs to eat a lot of food in order to bulk up, they're not going to be able to do that without food. You got it. Hunter, pardon me, I also forgot you. Oh, I'm good. Yeah, you can go to the next question. That's from Summer. Again, as Hunter mentions his quote, boy, sitting alone in a room might not grow up to like suits, etc. Hunter, what do you think of John Money and his case study? I think it's the case study of, I think it was like the 60s where John Money was a psychologist or sociologist who had said that if you raise a child, this is that blank slate idea, that basically John Money said, you can raise a child to be either sex. It's just a matter of, because I think it was like someone was born with a, there was like a circumcision, was botched in a baby's penis. And they basically gave them a gender transition. Yeah. There was an SNL episode of that. And so that's actually really a very different thing here, because one, that would be sex and not gender. And second of all, the child also was, I mean, if they were old enough to be circumcised and whatnot, they obviously also had at that point, a lot of interaction with the social world as well, even if they were young and don't remember it. I mean, their developmental stages are still quite crucial. So in that case, it almost proves the opposite that you can have an internal perception of yourself that differs from your genitalia and simply changing genitalia or simply looking at biology is not actually going to determine that, which is actually right in line with my approach all along. So yeah, I think that, that story in regards to John Money is absolutely tragic. It's disgusting what happened. And thankfully that man has been heavily and swiftly condemned for violating medical rules and whatnot. You got it, and Mario pissed off, deleted your super chat. You guys, a friendly reminder, it's like less than 0.1% of people listening, but we're not going to allow any sort of slurs against any group. So we're not going to read it. It's just going to get deleted and banned. Karate Coast Eustace says, Maddie, I disagree with you. I can tell you that in all advanced civilizations, gender norms are 95% the same. Is that a question or just an incorrect statement? We allow people to put in statements as well for the super chats. Oh, okay. Cool. But also, yeah. You can respond, of course. There are so many examples that are to the contrary. In fact, certain ancient cultures not only had designation for people that aren't necessarily on the gender binary, but they revered them and had like special designation for that. So making a kind of generalization like that, despite me naming a couple examples, including ones in Hawaii, ones in North America. There's also an example of one in Prague where they've uncovered evidence of this in an old tomb. You're just wrong and can stay wrong. You got this one from Brenton Lange. Good to see you, Brenton says, Kevin, the expectations are based on age, not biology. If a post-pubescent male is a quote unquote man, why can't that man vote? Why can't he buy alcohol, et cetera? Can you repeat that? I'm so sorry. I was looking at my phone. I feel like an asshole. I wasn't expecting a question for me. Destiny likes his Nintendo. I know everybody's got their thing. Kevin says the expectations are based on age, not biology. If a post-pubescent male is a man, why can't that man vote? Why can't he buy alcohol, et cetera? I made a distinction before of I think a man is both a category under sex and a category under gender as well. This is just a different question. In my opinion, if you're 18 and you're able to vote, then you should be able to do all those things, for sure. You can go die for your country. You should be able to drink alcohol, all that stuff. You got it? Thank you very much. First name, last name says Alex. I think this is for Alex Steins. Can you please come to Ferefeni, town in Gambia, town hall meeting? The town hall is still loyal to JAMA's government and needs to be exposed. They're putting up the Alex Steins signal in the sky, Alex. This one for- Yes, I'll be there. Every town, every city council needs me. I know. I love it. Message me on Twitter. I check all my Twitter messages and I'll see if I can make it there to- Stay clear, women. Make sure you leave before he gets here. Do you have something, April? Are you a fan, April? They're going to flock. They're going to be there the ladies. They're going to flock away from you, dude. What Alex and they would do? They like it. What have you got, April? They like it. They're just going to say that I'm probably going to have to get going. I wanted to do that between questions. If you have to cut out, it's totally okay. Let me know if you have to go whenever you need to go. Karateco's Usis. Hi, guys. Have a good night. I'm probably going to head out now. Thank you so much for hosting me. This one is actually- Oh, it's a compliment. They say how is- You got a fan out there. I'll just let you go with that, April. It was a complimentary super chat. But this one from Sunflower. Have a good night, April. Hi, April. This one coming in from Sunflower says, Lotus, do you want to adopt most of the pre-Christian societal values as well or just the ones that embrace third or non-binary genders? Oh, I have no interest in any of the values beyond simply how they informed the way we interact with the world today. The things that they tell us about human society and the sociology of how we got where we are is the part that I am concerned with, not so much like I am trying to use them to gain a better understanding of humanity, not to necessarily make a prescriptive thing in that regard. I will still prescribe- You heard me get the list of five general categories that I think could fit on any of those sorts of forms with regards to gender. But that doesn't mean that we necessarily have to go like making everything old current, if that's what you're asking. You got it, Ann. Thank you very much for your question. Steve says, if a biological female under the age of 18 identifies as a male, should they be required to sign up for the draft regardless of transition? I mean, this is my personal opinion. I think women should sign up for the draft, too. Because when people think like military service, they think like, oh, we're going into battle. That's not necessarily the case. I think so you look at places like Israel. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, like Israel. I'm a personal trainer. I used to have a client female from Israel and she was in the military, but she just worked in the kitchen or something. In fact, she was overweight. So I was like, how are you, you know, because you hear military, you just think like, oh, well, you must have been like doing these super active things. And besides boot camp for her, she wasn't. So I think everybody, men and women should be conscripted or not conscripted, I'm sorry, be put into the draft. If there is a draft, yeah, I do it. Yeah, if there is a draft, yeah. Because if they do get drafted, it doesn't mean that we're going to throw them on the front lines. Yeah, as a policy, I have no issue with both genders being, or like all genders being drafted. But like, I also just don't agree with drafts in general, because I think we're better served with the voluntary military. I think we can kind of agree with you on that. We're just saying if there is like some kind of crazy circumstance, but yeah, I agree with you. You got it, Anne. Thank you very much for this question. Brenton Langel strikes again. There are as many genders as society finds useful. It is informed by perceived sex characteristics. Society says, quote, you look like this, therefore you should do x, y, z, unquote, gender is the quote, therefore you should, unquote. Any thoughts? Who's this directed towards the right side? Yeah, I mean, I still hold my stance. I still think that gender is inextricably tied to sex. If you say, for example, that if we agree that there's two sexes, male and female, and then there's certain expectations of those based on the society that you live in or the culture that you live in, I think it's okay to say, hey, there's different types of expectations of males, and that's in the category of different types of men, and there's different sorts of expectations of females, and that's within the category of woman. That's all. Yeah, I'll just add on that. I go back to the point that actually April made, was that when you have no parameters, words cease to have meanings, and then things just become very claustrophobic. And furthermore, I think that, like me personally, if someone wants to be more feminine or transition, I have zero problem with that, but I do think we need to be honest with those people about the potential consequences, and one of them is in the sexual marketplace. If you're a guy and you're going to be very feminine, you're going to have a very hard time attracting a mate. It is what it is, so we do have to be honest about the consequences and not just be like, oh, it's up to you, man. You got it. Ann, thanks very much for this question. Coming on from GJMPW says, for the trans, anybody who's trans, let's say we decouple gender from sex. Afterwards, do we just pretend sex has no impact on social interactions like relationships? Frankly, you don't have to be trans to respond if you want to respond. I was just going to say it's a matter of like, you're confusing pluralization with causation. Like, just because these things are related does not mean that they have to influence each other. And it's not a wholly decoupled, as in most people will identify with the gender that they have been assigned at birth, with the sex that they have been assigned at birth, so the gender associated with the sex they've been assigned at birth. But that doesn't mean that you have to. It's just giving people more freedom. It's not like it's ungrounded or anything. It's all still based on what we as a society find useful. Can I just follow up on what Lotus said? Yes, I agree with the idea that people should have freedom, but I do think we need to be honest with them about consequences. Like I have the freedom to change smoke cigarettes if I want to, but it would be dis-genuine for society telling me there's no consequences to smoking cigarettes. No, like that's going to take a toll on my health. It's not a perfect analogy, but there are consequences in the social marketplace if you go outside your gender roles. So, yes, people should have the freedom, but also they shouldn't be lied to about the consequences. You got it. This one from Uganda says, this is silly. Let me just ask, for the women, do they feel, how do they feel about a future where men and women will be sharing lockers, changing rooms, and bathrooms for the sake of quote-unquote inclusion? I don't know if they mean like ungendered bathrooms or it's just like community bathroom. Anybody can use it? I think it means like when I was in college, in our dorms, we had co-ed bathrooms and like it was a, people were uncomfortable with it for like a week and then you just get used to it and it's fine. I think that co-ed changing rooms or whatnot could be a little bit uncomfortable, but as far as the bathroom thing, I mean, they've already done studies on states that have enacted gender-neutral bathrooms and they found absolutely zero uptake and sexual, hold on, stop, stop, Brittany, please. Again, I'm getting shut down. I'm sorry, listen, I'm trying to be nice, okay? Be quiet. So they've already done studies on states where they have enacted these kind of policies, entire states, and they found zero uptake in sexual assault, rape, violence, anything of the sort. In fact, trans people are actually more likely to be victims of violence if they are forced to use the wrong bathroom rather than ever be perpetrators. Hunter, could you send over the study? I'm just curious to take a look at that. Yeah, sure. I'll get it for you in just a second. Brittany, if you're still there, whatever you got for Hunter will give you a chance to, if you are still able to hear us. I don't think she can hear us. I don't think she can hear us. She just came back. But yeah, I have no problem with any of that, like for the reasons that Hunter said. Brittany, we're waiting for you. You wanted to pounce on Hunter, and that was your chance. Let's not get carried away. I don't even remember what we were talking about. He was just being annoying as usual. About bathrooms? Oh, yeah, yeah, no, like they're usually like the handicap type of bathrooms, right? No, we're talking about co-ed, like just, it's a bathroom, but anyone can go in it. Where the hell is this? Where is this? Wait, you, in California, Lisa, I'm pretty sure that gender neutral bathrooms also, there's a bunch of knowledges that do that. I can point to everybody going to the same bathroom. No. I live in California. We have multiple restaurants, like, near me that have that. No, you're lying. You're lying. I'm not. I've never seen that. No, Maddie Cakes is right. I used to live in California. I've seen that. But I think, to Brittany's point, is that typically they're like one-person bathrooms. They're not multi-people bathrooms. Yeah, yeah, exactly. They, yeah, you can't have a bunch of people in there. There's one stall. Like it's a one-person bathroom, like a handicap stall. No, I've been to, like, even, I mean, even in New York, there are clubs where, like, there are stalls, but they're all in the same area. It's not, like, designated by gender. And then you all have the same place where, like, you wash your hands. So, like, no one's, like, it's just, there's not like toilets on a wall. Like, I'm not going to, then there's, like, the boy and girl side. You was at, though, right? A locker room, like, Leah Thomas gets to change. And could you tell me what, sorry, I'm confused. What's the difference with a bathroom and a locker room? Locker rooms, people are usually getting naked. I'm so confused. Yeah, because you're not very smart. What's a locker room? I don't understand. Could you draw me a picture? The most unlikable thing I've ever seen in my life, like, stop. Oh, my God, Brittany. Stop. I love you. You're doing it. You're doing it back. Brittany. Oh, my God. From your stuff says, for the plus two to beyond gender panel, would you consider Demi Lovato a traitor to the trans community after backtracking and reverting to her normal birth pronouns? Should that come with a penalty? What? No. Who's going to, why? Do you, who's going to panel? Like, what governing body would issue that penalty? Like, like the international alliance of trans, I don't like, no, what? The council must decide your fate. Like, no. Gotcha. This one from stoned nerd 293 says, you guys rock. I'm loving this debate. All credit to the speakers. They're linked in the description. That includes if you're listening via the podcast. Mike says, let's see. I don't know what that means. Sameer, thanks for your question, says Semenya female 800 meter runner, banned for higher naturally occurring testosterone levels that helped her destroy competition. IAF found it unfair for other women. Why fair for men running as women? Because, oh, no, you can go ahead. Let's go ahead. Because if men fell under that same category, they would, well, first off, you would have to be talking about a trans woman who would have transitioned and thus not be a man. And also just like, wouldn't have been a man in the first place. You would have to be like, it has to do with the hormone levels. It has nothing to do with like, whatever's in their pants. So it would be applied equally. Who cares? This one coming in from appreciate it. Edward J. Peters says, solution in all caps do kink. There are no sexes or gender just roles and safe words concerning only the participants. All other assumptions are just foreplay. How do you like them apples, Hunter? Oh, was that to me? No, it was just in general. I was teasing anybody. Okay. And me, is he trolling? Like, I don't know. It's a little bit of a troll. We can't like, you know, this guy, this guy's million Americans have a safe word. Like, 2022. What? Hey, I mean, if that's how you want to cat, whatever he wants, baby, society, then sure, light of the twin lamp says question for all, where should trans women be housed in the men's prison or women's prison, even for cases of sexual assault? So in other words, I think they're saying if it's a trans woman who sexually assaulted somebody, given that that's their, you know, past crime, which prison should they be in a men's or women's? That's really complicated. Really one at a time. Go ahead, Alex, we'll start with you. And then Kevin, I know you had something to say, we'll go to you next and then we'll keep moving around the circle. That's a good question. And I think the answer is going to be nuanced, because a trans, so a man who like even a cross dress or a male cross dresser is not safe in a regular male person. I mean, the statistics are atrocious, but then if you put him in a woman's prison, that's a potential safety issue for the woman, especially because this person is a criminal. So I think the solution is that they need to be probably it's not a great solution. But I think this is the best one is they need to be held in some kind of isolation or a separate unit, because it's a safety issue for them and the other people, either way, agree, totally agree with that. I was just saying, I would put them in the prison with which of the gender with which they identify. And there's no data whatsoever to suggest that someone is a higher propensity to commit violence just because they were born a different gender in prison. That's ridiculous. Also, so you think you get to choose the prison, you get to choose the prison. Wait, I'm going to the female prison. Fuck that. If you choose to translate, I want to hear about Alex. I want to hear about Alex once has to say Alex Stein. Can you just want to say you can look this up in New Jersey, a trans person got kicked out of the female prison because they got multiple inmates pregnant. So that's a viral story. Oh, just the one man, you got us there. Just so we're going to be violence never happens. They're like a rape. Wait, no, I'm saying was there a man never I think that would be good content. Can I please just I just want to know if Alex is saying that based on that example, it was it like somebody was raped there? Okay, well, no, I don't think they made too great. It was consensual sex from what I believe, but multiple female women got pregnant by the trans inmate, which is a little important detail. Just to check it out. Also, can I read really quickly? This is this is about the bathroom thing. I pulled up the study for playing with fire. So let's see legislation, regulations, litigation and ballot propositions affecting public restroom access. All right. No empirical evidence has been gathered to test such laws, effects. Can you post the link please so I can just kind of review myself later? Yeah, I also just want to read it though really quickly. What they say the laws they're talking about laws that make it so that it's more inclusive basically for trans people. So this study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces. Additionally, the study finds that reports of privacy and safety violations of public restrooms, locker rooms and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of non-discrimination laws are not empirically grounded. Yeah, I definitely want to take a look at that if you can post that please. Here's the link right here. I put the link in the chat too above that talking about and I'll read this real quick. Trans prisoner who impregnated two female inmates is psychopath according to the foster mom. Depending on who you asked, a 27 year old inmate who impregnated two women in New Jersey prison earlier this year is either a mortar to the transgender cause or a cold-blooded killer who got involved in a messy love triangle behind bars. So I mean it gets into you know this person lying about so would you also not support like prison guards from being at the opposite genders because there was plenty of examples of prisoners who were impregnated by a guard with which they had a sexual relation. No, no, I think is that the problem? I don't think guards should have sex with inmates. So it's so weird but like also inmates shouldn't have sex with each other, right? Is that your problem or do you just want to like demonize trans people? Are you not basing reality you don't think inmates have sex with inmates? Do you not think you don't think it's a problem if like if let's just ban male male guards because they've impregnated prisoners too. Let's ban them, get rid of them. Maddie, the context of this question though, the context of this question is somebody. So they had consensual sex behind bars and that's horrible. Yeah, that's Maddie, public policy is about general harm. Let's ban sex, let's ban sex. No one should have sex, it's gross. Especially the context of this question, hold on really quick, the context of this question is somebody who committed a trans person who committed sexual assault, right? So a trans person who committed sexual assault. Wait, before or after they were in the prison? No, no, this is why they're going to prison. They're going to prison. This is why they're going to prison for sexual assault, right? So if they're in a prison with women that they can physically dominate, don't you think it's pretty, pretty likely that they're going to commit more sexual assault? Are you saying that the only reason then to prevent trans women from being there is if they can physically dominate like as if it's just like this homogenous thing that's very stupid? No, no, no, you're very stupid. Thank you. Towards men, if you're out of a male prisoner who was imprisoned for sexual assault against men, like you would you? Should he be kept separate? Yeah. Yeah, you should be housing other men and you'll probably get punished accordingly because here's the thing. Oh, so for you it's like you are OK. So your pro rape as long as the person being raped is like a bad guy. OK, so it's like it's such a bad person. I mean, I'm not. That is kind of a bad take there, Kevin, but I also can see the concern. I think that honestly I think that in a situation like this, if somebody has already been convicted of sexual assault and then they are going to get sentenced to prison, I do not think that no, I don't think they should be able to say, oh, actually now I'm a woman today. So therefore put me in the fucking prison of the women. However, if you have, hold on, wait, I want to say there's that version, which is ridiculous. But if you have evidence that this person is trans, which would most likely need to be multiple different statements from therapists that have confirmed that this is indeed somebody who is either taking hormones and has gender dysphoria, then I think that we could start talking about. Is this appropriate? Is it not? But what if the what if the trans woman because in this scenario, I imagine the trans woman sexually assaulted probably assist gendered women, right? So if you put her if you put an inside of the prison full of cisgender women, you're just it's just like that. So it's almost do we apply that the same? Well, he's right, because I mean, that's almost like if we stuck like Alex surrounded by a bunch of women, Alex Stein, like that would be fucking asking for disaster. And so I do think that I do. Hey, Alex Stein, how does it feel already having sex banned in your life? Okay. Second of all, Kevin, what I was saying a minute ago is content. Come on, you can give us the content. Do what you wanted to do with Alex. Do it now. Give us all the content we want. Come on. You're like an annoying buzzing in their ear. I don't think you want to. You said you wanted and you're not going to do it. So what I'm trying to say to Kevin is I agree that there is obviously a potential for for issue there. And I think that in the hypothetical you're laying out the answer would almost certainly be this person should be put with the other male prisoners because odds are, if you are convicted of a crime, you are not then going to just suddenly start transitioning in the midst of that. That's pretty fucking unlikely. So I think that in the hypothetical you've laid out, yes, they should go with the male prisoners. One follow up question to Hunter. Just one quick follow up question and I promise Lotus. What about if someone there's there's a clear track record, like it's someone who's trans, they've been transitioning for like five years, there's clear evidence of it. However, they're still in jail. They're being sent to prison for sexual assault or rape. In that case, should they be sent to a woman's prison? In the I'm sorry, they have a long track record of sexually assaulting. No, they're convicted for sexual assault, but I'm saying there's a track record of them being trans, meaning they didn't pull it out of their ass. Like they've been actually transitioning blah, blah. They're a trans person who commits sexual assault, which obviously happens. I don't really know in that case. I mean, it's the consistent answer would definitely be that they should go with the prison or with the prison then with the women. But I mean, that also needs to take into account that we have two shitty options in this case, which is either put the trans woman in the male prison, which has already demonstrated that that trans woman is then significantly more likely to suffer sexual assault or rape themselves, or put them in the prison with the women and then risk having that trans person be a predator themselves. I think that this is kind of a hunter. You have a better third option, which is what me and Kevin are advocating. You put them in isolation. You do this with people who are like celebrities or people who, for example, rats and stuff like that. That's the reasonable solution. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're right. That would be the reasonable solution. I mean, you could say that about any like violent criminal, right? Where you're like, Oh, well, would you put this violent person in general populations where they're risking like being violent towards the other people? You could say that about like a cis man who raped other men and are like, well, should he be in that prison with other people? I think like overall what I would say is if they're a risk factor where like they are at a higher heightened risk to cause harm to other inmates, then maybe there's a way they can be isolated or prevented from causing other egregious harm. But I would I would not necessarily consider that like a gendered issue that's just more of like preventing violence depending on someone's historical like criminal record. But gender does play a huge role. If you have a man who has committed sexual assault, even if it's a so, okay, now a trans woman, someone's transition, and you put him in prison with a bunch of women, that is a recipe for disaster. Do you feel the same way if it's a man who raped another man and now he's put in the male prison? Well, that happens in prison all the time, but public policy is about general harm reduction. Yeah, that is what I'm saying is if you apply that logic to that other person, like is this a constant? It's more so putting them in like the certain demographic that they caused harm to. So for example, if somebody committed a racial crime, for example, there was like a white guy who committed a hate crime against a black person. And then, you know, and then you throw him into a prison just only exclusively full of black people like that, it's going to be a problem, right? Similarly, if somebody committed, if a trans person committed sexual assault against cisgendered women, and then you throw that trans person into that prison full of cisgendered women, then that's also a problem. So if someone committed a hate crime, you should racially segregate that. Well, person is in this case, actually, yes, he gave a good actual example there that, yes, if you have somebody who committed a hate crime, like they went out and fucking lynched a black dude, then you probably shouldn't stick them in a prison with a bunch of other black guys. Yeah, that might actually be a bad idea. So you're pro because then he'll probably commit segregation in our when it comes to reducing harm or racist violence, then yes, like, what do you mean? In that case, Maddie case, who is looking out for the well-being of the black people there, us or you? You're actively putting somebody in there. We should segregate prisons. You're right. Why are you so bad faith and stupid during this? Because that is the dumbest argument I've ever heard. When you're looking at harm reduction, there are other there are so many other. This is so stupid. You want to like be based on if it's like a hate crime, you want to racially segregate? Are you fucking serious? You're making that fucking ridiculous. You're literally making. I'm parroting what you're telling me. You are you are literally making a fake argument. What argument am I making? Look how stupid that argument this idea that prison should all be segregated based on race. Because if I'm saying if there's a hate crime involved, I'm saying you want to segregate them based on the prep. On the supposition that there is a one individual who committed a violent hate crime in which they hung a black person and screamed the n word at him or something that he probably would be a good idea to say should be in a white only area if they did that solitary confinement, not like prisons in the US are generally segregated. It's the unfortunate reality of the prison system. But that's not a that's not a function of the prisons enforcing that segregation based on the type of crime with which they commit when it comes to race. That is not it. But it there's segregation in terms of like where people end up like grouping socially. And that's more of a that's a function of like self preservation. It's purely based on race. And if you as a white person want to sit with the black people, you're going to get fucking killed. Right. But again, this is not something that's enforced by like the prisons aren't specifically designating certain prisons, certain areas. I don't know. This is for people who committed non racial crimes. And so they're going to only be with like this designation one. I think that's ridiculous. I want to. Can I just just want to say one more thing real quick. In this case, we're not even talking about like, oh, you are white. So therefore, go with the other whites. LOL. We're talking about in this case, if somebody committed a violent hate crime and the prison is predominantly full of black people in this hypothetical, then they should be in solitary confinement. Exactly. You should write a letter to your senator. That sounds great. Let me ask you this many cases. How about this situation? You should go right. Go for it, Lotus. Hey, so we've gotten way off the weeds from this original question. The question was at first about like, should trans women be kept with women just in general in prison? The answer to that commit sexual assault, right? I'm pretty sure that wasn't the initial question. That was an example. I'm just running through this because I haven't had a chance to speak this entire time. So we already, like the evidence shows that it is best to put trans women with other women in general. If there is a person who has sexually assaulted other women, like then keep them separate from people. If there's a person who has sexually assaulted other men and is going to be in a men's prison, keep them separate from other men. You treat violent defenders like this. There's a reason why we have these solitary confinements or these reduced exposure confinements. OMG. Are you saying you support segregation forehead? That's not the point she was making either. That question was posed as you were putting a person, a white person who committed a hate crime into a prison that is already segregated, a prison that is already contains nothing but black people. And I would reject that question on its premise. So that imitation was spot on. It was like listening to Amir. Oh, thank you. This one coming in from do appreciate your question as well. Samir says, name one woman track Y, W, R is faster than men's. If you fail, then case closed. Slowest pro XY runners are faster than legend pro. Okay. So they're saying slowest pro female runners are faster than legend. I screwed that one up. Sorry. I think no runners. Sorry. I know a bunch. I'm just still trying to figure out how you can hear a reflection. Listen to Amir. It's yeah. Have you tried? They said the slowest male runners are faster than legendary pro female runners. Any distrust? That's just not correct. Facts. What? Yes, it is. The slowest professional. Professional. Is legendary mean fictional? Because I don't know. Yeah. Can you say that? What was the chat again? The super chat? They said slowest pro male runners are still fastest, faster than the legendary female professional runners, no matter the distance. So whether it be 100 meter race I know track and field very well. So the fastest 100 meter sprinter, for example, for women, her name is Shelly and Fraser Price. She's Jamaican. She's a legend. Her record is like 10.6 or something in the 100. 10.6 and there's males in high school that run that easily. I mean, they're like very fast. I mean, I ran a 10.6 myself. Yeah. I mean, if those are the facts, then those are the facts. Sure. Yeah. There's no pro. If you're a professional sprinter and your record is a 10.6, you're just not going to, by definition, you're not going to be professional. You're just not going to make it. The women's soccer team, the U.S. women's soccer team lost to a 14 and under men's team. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Vanessa Williams lost to like a 300-ring hungover male tennis player. That's a great dog. I mean, Venus really. And they both played him though. They ended up both playing him and they purposely, their dad picked him, they could beat him because he was such an alcoholic and he still won. He was like ranked number 300 or something like that. And he was the last ranked pro. Any other thoughts? I thought this was on the basis of just general men versus women categories. If it's professionals, I don't know the context of where the records fall and whatnot. But that was the question. The question was professionals. If there's a statistically significant difference, I'm just explaining my earlier answer. If there's a statistically significant difference, then there's a statistically significant difference. But there doesn't exist in the context of trans athletes who fall within the guidelines compared against women who are cysts of similar build training, et cetera. I mean, we already covered this earlier, so there's no point in coming to it. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Sorry. This one from Jake Lesba says, when will Hunter debate Nick Fuentes, your old buddy, Nick? They want to know when you're going to debate them, Hunter. Yeah, sure. I'm currently kind of figuring out the scheduling in regards to that, but I did already debate him here on this panel. And last I checked, everybody in the chat was coping because I was, quote, too mean to the fucking neo-Nazi. So, you know, I'll get around to it at some point, but maybe if all of his... Debate him. Don't be a coward. Well, hold on. Wait, wait, wait, wait. If all... Please don't sexually harass me again, okay? If we're going to do a... No, because you're a soy boy. I will say so. Let's see. I'm going to... I'm going for Hunter. Don't be scared of Nick. Go face him. I'm going to debate Nick at some point here, but I'm not really... At some point, why don't you just pick a date? It's because you're a cat. Are you okay right now? Are you okay right now? It's okay, dude. Chill. So, I'm going to debate Nick Fuentes, but I'm not particularly in a big hurry, considering the fact that, one, I've already debated him on this panel, and two, no matter what or how I approach that conversation, his rabid bunch of angry virgins are always going to seize Cope and wine. And they're going to claim... No, hold on. Wait. They're going to wine, essentially, that I'm too mean to him. So, I think I'm going to have to figure out how to be a little nicer, handle him with the kids. Because you have 200 people watching your stream and they'll have 2,000, so they'll embarrass you. That's why you're... Oh, wow. Oh, he got you. You got me, Alex. More views means correct. This time, what do you... In that case, he's a lot more popular than you, yeah. Thanks, what do you... I got 20 viewers. I love them so much. Yeah, Leah Thomas is more popular than you, Alex. Oh, what are you going to do now? That's not true. I'm more Twitter followers than Leah Thomas. Do you want me to send you a plaque or...? Look, this one from Light of the Twin Lamps says, Lou Pro-Rillin is used in both the chemical castration of sex offenders and in transgender therapy, can we objectively say children are being castrated? Things have different effects depending on different points of the developmental cycle. Yeah, and like... Also, the dosage makes the poison. And Lotus pointed this out earlier, but a lot of the like puberty blockers in hormone therapy and other things that they give to children who are trans are also given to cisgendered children for different variety of disorders because they have additional like medical applications. So, no. Yeah, I mean, I like fundamentally disagree with you guys on that. I think me and Hunter also disagree on that thing. I think it's... Look, if people over 18 want to transition, it's totally their intuition. But when you're a kid, your mind is all over the place. One day you want to be this, one day you want to be that. I used to want to be in the military when I was 12. Obviously, I'm not in the military. Your mind changes all the time. I think as a parent, it is your job to restrain your kid at the very least until they turn 18. They're capable of making their own decisions. You're not allowed to get that through when you're a kid. But that's why there is a specific... Well, hold on, because... I just want to say, I just put the article in the chat, but FDA quietly adds warning of serious side effects to puberty blockers. They just did that. Yeah, there are serious side effects to a lot of medications that are taken all the time. Two, when people try to bring it up and say, oh, it's the same stuff used to chemically castrate people. Yeah, you can overdose on Tylenol also. Like it matters what the dosage of that thing is. Whether you're going to have therapeutic benefits... On puberty blockers. Alex, I don't know if maybe AOC is nearby, and you feel the need to have people heckling, but please hold on just a moment, okay? She loves it. So she pieces me and comes into the chat when I'm chatting with her. Sure. Is that like your biggest... Is that like your best life memory? Is the time that you got to get close to AOC? That's one of the most viral stories of the year, but I mean... I bet you're so manly. Probably because you did something incredibly shitty and stupid. Oh, my God. So we've got a lot of shit. Kevin, we thought the manager was messing with you, man. So hot. Coming in from Sameer says... You know what? I didn't even finish my point. I'm sorry. Let me get back to this. So, Alex, what I was saying is that you're right. Kids change their minds all the time. I am right. I appreciate that. But, uh-huh. Yeah, good one. Playing with fire. This is why, for example, there are guidelines, which is you need to show consistent gender dysphoria for a minimum of six months as a child. And that also means that you need to have varying degrees of citations, essentially. So your doctor needs to approve that you have gender dysphoria. Your therapist needs to approve that you have gender dysphoria. Well, it's for doctors, yeah. There are... Yeah, there's a lot of other factors there. Because I would agree with you if it was literally, oh, mommy, I want to get the girl happy meal. Oh, let's go get the fucking gender transition. Then, yeah, there would be a big problem there. But there are guidelines put in place. And lastly, the World Health Organization, in regards to trans people, it's not the World Health Organization, I'm sorry, WPATH, has also said that there should be no permanent operations done on anybody under the age of 18. So if that's happening anywhere, then that would be a violation of the literal medical guidelines. This is coming in from, we must move forward. Samir says, Mr. Study, I think that's for you, Hunter. I don't know. They say skirt wearing boy, student guilty of sexual assault on a 15-year-old girl in a school bathroom in Virginia. There is your counter example. Thoughts? So, first and foremost, a counter example of one little thing happening does not completely disprove any study. Second of all, I'm pretty sure in that situation the person wasn't even trans. I think they were literally just a guy who happened to be wearing a skirt. I don't think that he was actually trans in that situation at all. But even more so, I mean, hey, here's a study that shows that seatbelts are generally safe. Oh, well, here's my friend that died in a car accident while wearing a seatbelt. Checkmate, liberal. Come on. Anybody with two fucking brain cells knows that that's not how you refute actual data points. I'll kind of agree with Hunter on that. Exceptions don't make the rule. You got it. Kyrie Irving, thanks for your question, says, how many genders are there? Also, thank you for being based in reality. My guy, prime time 99, Alex Stein, always the grind. I'm just going to use the bathroom. You got it. Let me see if we light up one or two more. Bring your microphone. Okay, let's go. This one coming in from nuclear reactions says, trans community should have their own sports league. Wouldn't that be wouldn't that make them happier compete against trans peers equally with their own physical standards and sub categories that can attend to all these infinite identities case closed? Separate but equal. Love it. Yeah, I think if they have their own category, then that's cool. But I don't know. There's already separate but equal in regards to sports, Maddie. Let's do it. Let's do it. There's already segregation in sports. That's I worked in sports marketing. I'll be the I'll be the president of the Trans League. Did you get fired? I'll carry that torch. That's what happened. We got fired pretty quickly. No, I got left to go to Google. Oh, you work for Google? I used to not anymore. I'm sure you got fired from there too. Nope. I left to start my own company working politics and we are successful. So thank you all for your concern. Really successful. Thank you so much for your concern. I mean, it's better than getting fired for sexual harassment. I'll send you my LinkedIn if you want. I'll I'll send you my LinkedIn. Light of the twin lamp says, is your true favorite debate? Is it true your favorite debate was Professor Day versus Jesse Lee Peterson on racism? Amazing. It was one of my favorites. This one's from tiny Batman says, babies do not have any adopted social constructs upon birth. Yet we declare a male baby as a quote unquote boy. Is a boy a male adolescent or social construct? I gave my opinion on this earlier. I think that it's it could be both in the sense that it's a boy is a from a sex standpoint. It's a boy. It's a male in early stages of development, usually before before puberty. And then there's also from the gender standpoint of what society expects of boys. It's different than what they expect of from men. But yeah, it's I think it's that's definitely a boy for sure. And can I also make sure or nurture? Yeah, this this is aside the point. I apologize. It's the skirt wearing male thing. I just read over the story and how he was found guilty. There's absolutely no reference whatsoever that this person was transgender. So to whichever brain dead chatter thought that that was a clever gotcha. Sorry, buddy. Maybe you should do a little more research. You got this one coming in from do appreciate your question. I think this maybe think that was the last of our questions. So I want to say folks, our guests are linked in the description. And we highly encourage you. If you'd like to learn more about their views, you certainly can. We do appreciate all of our guests. I know it's rough and tumble. But hey, it is what you make it. And so it's kind of like water under the bridge. It's a fun time. We really do appreciate our guests for real. They're linked in the description box of the podcast as well. James, before we go, when is the last time you had Subway? I think it's last weekend. I only do it on weekends with that. Thanks very much, folks. You're only a weekend Subway freak and an everyday freaky-deaky on the footlongs. Kevin, what was your question? I think you're here. Oh, I was just stretching. Oh, OK. Got you. Well, what was that? No, no, no. I think you're projecting, Alex. But well, you know, James gets to the people in the chat. James won a lifetime supply of footlongs from Subway. That's a fact. Now, what to say, though? Our guests are linked in the description. I'll be right back. James, did they know I'm not lying? With a post-credits scene, we'll all be answering questions. Please confirm, James, his footlong. Thank you very much, James, for hosting the debate. Thank you for having us. And I also really quick wanted to say Kevin and Alex from Playing with Fire. If you guys ever want to talk, just like one-on-one, or both of you guys and we can talk on my stream, just let me know. I stream pretty much five days a week. So, yeah. I was actually about to ask you. If it's cool with James, I'd like to invite you, yeah, to do a part two debate. I think it could be very interesting if you're. I think that we could have a really good discussion. And Alex, maybe you should start to debate the legal precedent when it comes to consequences for sexual harassment. And then maybe we can talk about it. Well, it's not a crime to say you have a big booty, Latina. So, if you were smart enough to know what the law was. No, I know that that the law isn't a crime, but repeated harassment could be. Not to mention, sexual harassment in and of itself is morally wrong. Yeah, it's not a crime. You got a lot of problems. Oh, yeah. Really quick. You have moral superiority, right? Uncle, how can I get in touch with you? This one, really last question, it's actually related since you guys were in the debate mode. Legendary, it says gender doesn't exist actually. Apparently, all of you are wrong. It's all biological. Look up hypothalamus mutations. The LGBTQ have compared to heterosexuals. They say the faster we get through this identity politics, the faster we get to real issues. Stick that in your pipe and smoke it. I added the last part. I mean, like I said before, I think gender and sex are inextricably tied. I don't necessarily 100% disagree with that statement, but I don't, I guess, 100% agree with it as well. But I generally agree with the sentiment. Sorry. If you guys want to get in contact with me, you can either just message me on Discord. You can send me a Twitter DM, Instagram. I'm easy to get in contact with. Don't worry. I'll find you on Instagram. Also, Instagram, yeah, I want to invite you too. I think it would be pretty epic. Me and Kevin and you and Hunter, if you guys are cool with it, I think that would be a very interesting debate. Wait, no, I'm not being on a team with Maddie. I can see that coming. We'll do them separately. We'll do them separately then. I have no problem with Hunter, but that's fine. All right, cool. Yeah, Maddie, we'll have separate discussions with both of you guys. Separate but equal discussion. Very nice. Yes, that sounds great. Are you on Instagram too or what? I am on Instagram. It's the same as my Twitter. Also on Discord. I'm on all the things. I'll message you on Instagram. Cool. Yeah, yeah. Perfect. And folks, if you have friends who enjoy controversial debates like this, share this debate as you can help spread this neutral platform as we're trying to give everybody a fair shot to make their case. And I'll be right back with just a few upcoming debates I'll mention in just a moment, so stick around. Ladies and gentlemen, I want to say thanks so much for all of your support. That was a fantastic panel. I really do appreciate it seriously. We, I know that sometimes it's like, ah, but so-and-so drove me nuts. I've got to say, you know what? The guests make the show. They really do. They make it fun. And even it's kind of like in pro wrestling. You know, when you have people who are the heels, maybe for some of you who knows, Alex Stein is your heel. Or maybe it's that Maddie is your heel, whoever it is. I've got to say, you know, they do make it interesting and lively and fun with their passion. And so we really do appreciate our guests. They're linked below in the description box right now. So if you want to, you can find more of their content, more of their views right now. But I want to say, we appreciate you guys supporting a neutral platform like Modern Day Debate. Our goal is to give everybody a fair shot. If you're new to Modern Day Debate, we really do want to give everybody their chance to make their case on a level playing field. We're very serious about that. No matter how far left, no matter how far right, we really do appreciate all of our guests and we want to give them a fair shot. Want to say, if you have friends who enjoy controversial debates like this, hey, this is a great opportunity. Right now, you could click share and you can say, hey, you know, for me, my controversial friends, my friends that like controversial stuff, Andy and Logan, are probably like my main two, where I know I can share any super politically incorrect like idea or video with them. And I can say, hey, you might like this. And I don't have to worry about their judgment. You probably have friends like that, at least one, right? You have to. You can share this link with them right now. What are you waiting for? So that's one thing. But I've got to tell you, wow, that was a fantastic debate. Seriously, I enjoyed it so much. I was a little nervous. It's true. I really was. The reason is because this is a topic. I was like, this has been kind of debated for a while. This isn't exactly like current event on the news. You know, for example, is like, well, we should maybe should have had a panel on whether or not the raid on Mar-a-Largo was acceptable. But I was like, you know, let's give it a shot. And I'm glad we did because like tonight, seriously, people really enjoy this. If you haven't yet, we are only five likes away from 300 live likes. That's amazing. So if you want to be one of those five that helped get us over the 300 mark, seriously, 300 likes during the live debate is great. We appreciate that. And I want to head over to the old Twitch chat right now as I know that our Twitch chat is actually pretty active tonight. Our Twitch, we don't have much of a presence on Twitch in the sense that most of our followers follow us on YouTube. However, there are two. That's right. Two people watching Twitch right now. I think it was up to 11 at one point. But do track. Good to see you there in the old Twitch chat snails. Be fast. Thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old Twitch chat. And I want to say as well in the old live, or yeah, you could say live chat on YouTube. Hello, mistress of economic invincibility. Thanks for coming by. Good to have you here. Khaled Ahmad, thanks for coming by. Happy you're with us. Redacted. Happy you're here. Oli, is it pronounced Oli or Oli? Let me know. Happy to have you in either case. Lyme Mason, glad you're here. John Taylor, we're glad you're with us. Thanks for dropping in as well as Shadow Moses 165. Thanks for dropping in. And Joe The Toe, good to see you again. Doom Paul, happy you're here. Matt, pumped that you were here. Adam Ferro, am I saying it right? Is it an R that's rolled? Adam Ferro? Okay, I'll try. Robert Page, good to see you there. I'm glad you're here. And thanks for your kind words. Wang Dangler, thanks for your kind words. Always the most creative names. Evan says, I love you, James. I love you too, Evan. Thanks for your support. Seriously, it means a lot. We are excited about the future, you guys. We are at 311 likes. That's fantastic. We just crushed the goal of 300 likes. So seriously, thanks so much for your support that way. And yeah, I've got to tell you, we are excited as this has been super encouraging. Modern day debate has been growing. It's been unbelievable. Like seriously, the last month's been like 3,000 subscribers. And I'm not saying that because I'm not like a cocky numbers guy. I'm like, whoa, we have so many numbers. I want to say thank you guys for getting, you could say, joining the vision, the mission of providing a neutral platform. I think people are yearning for that. People want that. People want fair platforms. And hey, don't get me wrong. I don't think there's anything wrong at all, obviously, with channels that have kind of like one-sided essay type videos. I think that's fine. At the same time, people want a channel that's fully neutral and not just in terms of how we moderate. Because it's true. In terms of how we moderate, we always try to do it right down the middle. Are we perfect? I never said we're perfect, but we try. We try our very best. And I would say not only that, but we don't have any sort of videos that are like, let's say, for example, I used to see a debate channel that used to do debates. And then they would have an after show where they would be like, oh my gosh, wasn't that person on this side, side X an idiot? Or wow, weren't their arguments terrible? Wow. And I was like, wow, these guys are phonies. They're not. They're posers. They're not the real thing. We want a neutral platform. And so there's not going to be any sort of videos afterwards that are like, oh man, the lefty debaters or oh man, the right side debaters were so bad. Like, no, no, no, we don't do that. We let the chips fall where they may. You guys in the comments and the live chat, you guys get to make your call on who you thought was most persuasive. Russell Gibson, good to see you, says I hit the button. I hit the like button from Australia. Thanks for doing that. I get the joke. I appreciate your support. And it's true, even if you dislike the video, the word on the street is that actually helps us in the algorithm nonetheless. And that is why, because you might be like, wow, does the like button even make a difference? Well, if you want to do a good deed today, it does make a difference because I care about it. I'm directly asking, the reason is, is it helps us in the algorithm? You're like, how could it help you in the algorithm? Well, there are a couple of ways. One is how many times YouTube recommends our video in the side panel as people are watching other videos. The other way is I suspect it may help increase our placement. Like let's say someone searches for Hunter Avalon's name. If they search Hunter Avalon or Alex Sine, whoever it is, our video is more likely to be ranked more highly in the search results because people hit like. So that's the reasoning behind it. And that's why we do appreciate your guys' support that way. Seriously, it means a lot. And I want to read the super chats that came in during the debate. Let's see. Redacted, are you, are you, let's see, are you a bot? Let me know in the chat, say I'm not a bot if you're not a bot. Because you just all, you just keep saying everything about boot Maddie. And the truth is, you know what I like about Maddie? I don't know if I agree. I'm not gonna, you know, I don't, I always try to not show my, I always try to not show my hand, so to speak. I always try to, you know, kind of like, I mean, I've told you guys before that I'm somewhat politically moderate. Like I'm not super far one way or the other. I don't think, I've actually voted all over the place. Like I consider myself independent. The last two elections, I've been independent, where I voted for, what was it? I voted Libertarian. I voted for the birthday party. So I'm kind of like somewhat down the middle. I'm open to being persuaded by other side. But my point is this, is that Redacted. Glad you're not a bot. I appreciate that. But my point is this, is, so I, I don't know if I agree with everything that Maddie says, but I like that Maddie brings it. Maddie is a fast speaking, loud speaking, high energy type of person. That's what you need for a debate. So I've got to say, even if you're pissed at Maddie, that's the kind of people we want on modern day debate. Because you do appreciate that. People who are quick to their points, they're, you could say incisive. They get right to the point and they push hard with it. And yeah, frankly, we do like a little bit of attitude. So all of our guests, you know, like Alex and Hunter having some attitude, going back and forth at each other. I know. Sometimes it's like, oh, James, it's, you know, it's so toxic. Well, it is what you make it. So sometimes you just have to say like, ah, you know, what'd you expect? It's a debate. People get fired up. They're not punching themselves in the face. And they're frankly doing relatively well, given the fact that they're so far away from each other, typing, you know, kind of speaking behind a keyboard or a camera. They're not in person. Because I can tell you, when people are in person, they're very, they're much more calm and peaceful. And so I'm not saying that everybody that, what I'm saying is this, is that, you know, it's water under the bridge. You don't have to make a big deal. You can just say, ah, you know, it gets lively and it gets emotional. But you can always look at that and just say like, a big deal. Who cares? You know, people get over it. Two seconds later, they're like, ah, I forgot. You know, let's go get a beer. But want to say, Alice in Wonderland, thanks so much for being with us. Sameer Farzane, good to see you, says James, for being so unbiased. Do you ever change your position on a topic after you host a debate? Yes, I have. I don't think I've changed my position. For example, like, I didn't go from like, Christian to atheist or atheist to Christian or Republican to Democrat or vice versa. I haven't gone that far, but I have changed my position on certain arguments. So I will say that. Gordon Huskin, good to have you there in the old live chat, as well as Elon Musk and Tyler 432, glad to have you. And Colette Ahmad, it says, James looks like Abraham Lincoln. If he was based in Redpill, then yeah. Light of the Twin Lambs says, I noticed your tweet at Hague Report. Will my boy Anton Hague be featured in this debate soon? That may be the case. I have reached out to Hague for some debate soon. But Defreak says, don't worry about James. He's all man. Thanks, Defreak. I appreciate that. Seriously, Wesley Tartt says, hello, James. Love the channel. If I'm not mistaken, Primetime 99, Alex Tsai, does not believe in dinosaurs. Imagine that. Wow. But Kent Hovind does. Is that a good debate? Hey, it could be. I've got to say Kent Hovind, we've never, he's very much on creation of illusion. He's really difficult to like persuade into doing any other topic. So I like the idea, but honestly, it's really hard. I've tried to do it before and he just doesn't really budge. He really sticks to those topics. Joseph9599, glad you're here. Says glad you guys had Alex on. Me too. It was a great panel. And I think we're going to do a weekly panel like this. I really do. I think we're going to do that because I enjoy these. They're fun. They really change it up in terms of modern day debate. And so we are, we might have one. I saw there was a recent one. And Chan Therak, I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for coming by. Dune track. I see you there as well. Thanks for being with us. And yes, we absolutely do want to do that. In particular, we might have a white grievance panel. It's a controversial one. The left-leaning speaker, content creator, Mr. Girl recently had that topic. And I got to be honest. I mean, that's the truth. In my experience in life, you don't have to be good at coming up with your own ideas as much as recognizing a good idea. Because I've got to be honest. Oftentimes we, I mean, frankly, it's like, yeah, in a way, anything that's ever been named or discussed out there before, like it's not like we came up with the topic. I've got to tell you, I've never thought about that as a debate or panel topic, but a white grievance panel is an interesting idea. And I've got to say, yeah, something that I'm like, I think that would do well with modern day debate. I think people would enjoy that. It is very controversial. It is very offensive. I think that the people at modern day debate would enjoy that. Everybody likes that stimulation. So this one coming in from Russell Gibson. Thanks for your kind words, says James, you're a great host. I appreciate that. Seriously, I do. Thank you for that. And if you didn't know, somehow, if you have been living in a cave on Mars with your fingers in your ears, I've got to tell you, modern day debate has a podcast. Have you tried the podcast? Let me pull this up right now. You guys think I'm joking, but we are on fine podcasts everywhere. No joke. Seriously, modern day debate has been growing in the podcast world. I'm excited about that. We are super encouraged that we get feedback on it that's been positive. It's 100% ad free. So if you're tired of ads on YouTube, or maybe you want to download it on your phone so that way, that way you don't have to rely on data while you're on your way to work. Maybe you go through a tunnel while you're on the train and you lose your connection. Well, if you have a, basically if you have, or you could if you have YouTube premium, you can download, you can download the debate on YouTube. But if you don't, hey, you can download it for free without YouTube premium by checking out the modern day debate podcast. How neat is that? And it's 100% ad free right now. No joke. We've never put any ads on our podcast. And we don't plan on doing it, frankly, for a long time. Seriously. Skylar Holbrook thinks you're being with us. It says controversy and offensive is entertainment. You're right. It's stimulating. Oh, he has three. He says when James becomes Dr. James Coons, PhD, he might be able to attract academicians if they're brave enough to come on. Well, you know, a lot of academics are willing to come on and some of them are fantastic. But some of them, frankly, are not always that fantastic. The truth is some academics just aren't that great of verbal communicators. They might be great written communicators, but I think sometimes they forget who their audience is and sometimes they don't do that great. But that's just some. I'm not trying to stereotype. A lot of academics are fantastic and they really can take a technical message and communicate it well to a layperson audience. So I'm not throwing everybody in the mud. Some are fantastic. Some of them are amazing. Samir says viewers, how many debate hosts do you know? Scarifies and donates his own literal back to support his cause. Oh, scarifies this week. James, you rock, my friend. Thanks for your support. Seriously, it's true. I really did get a modern day debate or not a modern day debate, a subway tattoo on my back. Have you guys seen this? It was in order to get subway for life. I really did get a 12 by 12 tattoo of the sub with a new subway series logo on my back. And one reason is because we can use it to support the modern day debate. We can basically modern day debate when we have volunteers that help out at our conferences. Because our first conference in January, it was good. Don't get me wrong. But the truth is, we've been super grateful for volunteer help because we actually lost money on the first conference. And so those volunteers helped us a ton. And this is a way that we can help say, hey, like volunteers, we want to say, hey, we've got some subway lunch for you or subway, or maybe both subway dinner as well. And Adam Farrow says, did the Daniel Hikikachu debate get canceled? I sure hope not. I thought it was still on. Toby Force Spirit, Toby, I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for coming by and dropping in. We're glad you're here. Now I'm going to look at this page. Let me check right now. I'm 99% sure it's still there. In fact, Daniel Hikikachu versus T-Jump, which is tomorrow night folks, it's going to be a big one. You don't want to miss it. Don't miss it. It is going to be the unstoppable force against the immovable object. Folks, you don't want to miss this one. It is going to be gigantic. And then want to let you know, my dear friends, we are basically, we've got a lot of big things coming up first is that thank you guys for subscribing. That really is, I would guess, I don't know for sure if it helps in the algorithm, but nonetheless, you could say we just appreciate having you here, regardless of whether or not it helps in the algorithm. And again, that's whether you be politically left, politically right, you name it, we're glad that you are here, no matter what your position is. And let's see here. I got to go in just a minute because it's getting late. Sideshow Nav says, epic Friday night panel. Thanks, James. Thank you, Bob, for your support. Thank you for everything. And Adam Ferris says, did the Daniel Hikikachu debate get canceled? No, it didn't get canceled. Come on. It's not canceled. It's still on tomorrow night. Yes. Thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old live chat. As well as, Line Mason, happy to have you. Jupiter Darman says, hi, James. Nice to see you. Thank you, Jupiter. Seriously, I appreciate that. That means a lot. Now, I've got to tell you guys, we are close to 350 likes. John Taylor says, that subway tattoo on your back is surprisingly enormous. You're a crazy man. Adam Ferris says, 100,000 subscriber special James Coons debates. Hey, that'd be fun. But I've got to tell you, I am very serious. I'll show you this tattoo. If we can get, we only need 20 more likes. I will take my shirt off and show you this tattoo so you can see that I'm not making this up. I'm dead serious. This is going to be a huge resource to help modern day debates. We are excited about our conferences having this additional resource. It's going to be huge. I am pumped about that. But seriously, help us get to 350 likes. We've got 343 people liking. I know that there's got to be some that are like, oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot. I hadn't hit light. And if you happen to hit like, if we can get to 350 in the next three minutes, I will no joke, take my shirt off and show you this tattoo. But we've got to get another 14 likes. We're at 336. So thank you guys for all of your support. And Jupiter Dartmouth says, hit the light now. Kaijitobias says, I'm now creating new YouTube accounts to like this video. I will get my shirtless James. Man, it's always got to be a guy. But what Hannah Anderson says, 400 we can do it. Thanks Hannah Anderson. Is that, but want to say seriously, we appreciate your guys' support. And I'm dead serious. I did get a 12 by 12 subway tattoo on my back. And another thing is, we appreciate you guys. We want to say thank you. There are so many ways you make this channel better. Want to appreciate or want to say we do appreciate that. It means more than you know. Adam Farrow says, sorry James, I didn't think you went back in the chat to reread. That's why I reposted the same comment. No worries, no problemo my friend. Alex Stein says, hit like. Thanks for your support Alex. Evan says, like please. I'm so close to, okay, nasty guy. Going to jail Evan. Enjoy prison. But want to say Hannah Anderson says James need to get his own commercial for subway. He will be set. That's funny. Now that would be fun. I wish they'd call me. I'm not holding my breath. But I've got to be honest. I wouldn't mind if subway said, hey James, would you like to do a tattoo or not a tattoo for us? I've already done that. Would you like to do a commercial for us? I'd be excited about that. I think it'd be pretty fun. But we're at 346 likes. Seriously, we're really close to you guys. We can totally do this. But please speak like Kent Hoven. I see there in the old live chat. Glad to have you. And let's see. Anman says, thanks James for a great debate. Keeping up with eight people and civil. Keeping it civil is hard. And you did an amazing. Keep it up. The excellent work. Like always, like and subscribe to modern day debate. Thank you, Anman. Seriously, that really does mean a lot. I appreciate that. It really does mean more than you know. Ashley Dogg says, next Jared. Ha ha, that's funny. I'm not a pervert. But let's see. Lime Mason says, James from Subway, that's funny. And we have hit 351. Now you guys think I was joking. I really do have this tattoo. I'm not making this up. It's real. It's a 12 by 12. You're going to be like, James is that one of those stick on tattoos? This is the real thing. I'm serious. Watch. Do you see it? That's it right there. I'm serious. So yes, I really, I really did actually get this tattoo. I'll show you here. Check it out. I'm serious. That's real. That's permanent. Isn't that huge? But it's real. It's 100% real. So I want to say thanks for your guys' support. Seriously, we appreciate it. It's 100% real. Like this is not like a temporary tattoo. Thanks for your likes. We're at 353 now. So you guys thought I was joking. I'm not joking. You guys, let me put it in the live chat. New York post subway tattoo. I'm going to put the link in the live chat. Or no, let me, Oh, there's a, it was on Fox News. It was with Jesse Waters on prime time. So I'm very serious. I'm totally serious. This is, it was one of the more fun adventures I've gotten to do. I just put the link in the live chat. And so I am really excited. This is a huge resource for modern day debate. And I'm dead serious. That's what I was thinking. When I got this tattoo, I was thinking, Hey, if I get this tattoo, this can help support our debate con conferences. So when we have our debate conferences, that's a big deal. Debate con in January was a huge hit. Like seriously, people loved it. It went over great. We got a ton of positive feedback. And the channel grew significantly. So we are excited, my dear friends, about big things like that. So it's going to be awesome. And, but I'm serious. Let's see. Adam Farrow says, I see it on your IG story. It's for real. It's the real thing. DeFrieg says, huge. Thanks for your support. Appreciate that. And I've got to tell you though, I love Subway for real. And Redacted says, how many likes for PP? I don't, that's funny. I think I get what you're saying you pervert. But Katajupia says, it's super, thanks for your kind words. I appreciate that. And let's see. Symmetra says, does technology destroy family and social life? For example, TV, smartphone, social media. No time for traditional interactions. Yeah, that could be. You got to be careful about that. AshiDog, the tattoo's been there for like weeks. It's been two weeks now. A little over two weeks. It really is real. And I'll probably use that trick again in the future to try to get more people to hit like. So Kami Jays says, while James you've grown, looks like you put a lot of work in your health kudos. Thank you for that Kami Jays. I appreciate that. And perfect circle. Thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old live chat. As well as Willie Powell. Good to see you. Mahar Bhamani. Thanks for coming by. I see you there in the old live chat. We're glad that you are here. Thanks for dropping in. And Kajutopia. Kajutopia says, I'm going to need proof that that tattoo is real. You got to do it again next week. Well, we may do it again if it's to get more likes for the channel. But thank you guys for liking the stream. Seriously, it really does mean a lot. We love you guys. Thank you guys for making the show fun. I really do appreciate your support. It means more than you know. We're excited about the future. Tomorrow will be a big debate. Like seriously, it's going to be a big one on one debate. It's going to be huge. So I'm excited about that. You don't want to miss that one. I've got to think about other ones. Let's see here. You got that one. Then we've got, we're going to release on Monday. And this is an already done debate. So it's not live. Shabir Ali versus David Wood. That was deleted from David Wood's YouTube channel. I saved it before it got deleted. And we are, I got permission to add it to the modern day debate library. So that's cool. We also have Muslim apologist and apostate prophet debating is Islam dangerous to the world? That is on 826 this month. That's going to be a good one. And want to say though, thank you guys for all of your support. I love you guys. Thank you guys for making this fun. I enjoy this. You guys, honestly, I just love hanging out here. And so I love these post credit shows. Little post credit scene. Just hanging out. You guys make this fun. Thanks for being a fun gang. Seriously, I do appreciate you guys. And yes, it's true. Devil's Advocate says it was for a lifetime supply of subway, which is super helpful for debate. Con funding our conferences or being a resource. So that is really cool. We were pumped about that. And then favorite sub from subway, Adam Farrow says, I would say I actually always go for their steak, egg, and cheese. I love the breakfast foods. And so sue men 32. Good to have you here. I see you there in the old live chat. Thanks for dropping in. And you know, it's funny. What I see here is I've got to tell you, I'm always surprised at this is sometimes people quote Leviticus 1928. It says, you shall not make gashes in the flash for your, what is it? You shall not make gashes in your flash for the dead is subway for the dead. People were quoting Leviticus 1928 or incise any marks on yourselves. I don't know if that's referring to like a piercing, like an ear piercing or whatever it is. There are a couple of things regarding this passage. One is that most of you know, or at least some of you know, that the old covenant has been clearly and explicitly. So for example, in Galatians three, it's discussed as having been passed away. So these kind of like laws that pertain to the Jewish people, especially like in this case when subway is not, I'm not making a, it's not a tattoo and memorial of the dead. Subway is not dead. But the other thing is the old covenant, this isn't, it's not even, it's just, it's so obviously clear. So for example, in Galatians three, as well as if you were to read Acts chapter 10. So sometimes what I'm like so disturbed by, some people are so dumb is they'll go, oh, you know, so and so is a Christian, but they, they, you know, they eat pork. What a hypocrite, because didn't they know that Leviticus says that you can't eat pork? It's like, like I'm trying to tell people is like, it talks about an old covenant and a new covenant. In Galatians three, and as an example in Acts chapter 10, it explicitly says, it's Acts 10, 16. It basically a sheet comes down from heaven and God tells Peter in Acts 10, you can eat pork or you can eat anything. Like it's no longer considered out of bounds, you could say. So when people say that, I'm like, it just sounds like the most ignorant thing where I'm like, it's something that I saw on the show, the, I think it was like the West Wing. And I think people get that and they're like, oh yeah, that's a good one-liner. I'm just, oh that Christian, that Christian's eating pork when Leviticus says that they're not supposed to. And then I try to explain that to them or it's like it's just as plain as day where it's like that, that wouldn't apply to Christians. Like it explicitly says in Acts chapter 10, and they just have no answer. They look like a deer in the headlights. And here, I'm not saying, so here's the thing, I wouldn't say I'm not trying to throw every critic of Christianity under the bus, but I can say it comes like that with every worldview. There are critics of Christianity that are just dumb and they get their one-liners from TV shows. There are critics of atheism who are just dumb and they get their one-liners from TV shows. There are critics of Islam who are just dumb and get their one-liners from TV shows. So it's like, when I see that though, and I just, I'm like, oh gosh, like you need to be a little bit more in depth with this. But anyway, General Balzac, good to see you. Thanks for coming by, says, this is why we get to eat pork, General Balzac. Appreciate that. So yeah, I would say a lot of people though, they just scoff and they'll be like, oh, that's just silly. And it's like, well, you know, like there are reasons though. So it's just to be like, oh, here it comes, here's the script and stuff like that. It's like, well, but I gave an example, like I said. So like, here's Jupiter, Darwin says, oh boy, here comes the old covenant, LOL. Is that, like it, how does that, I mean like, did what I say, like not just clearly explain that? Is that not, how is that not clear? Like when it says Acts chapter 10, like you can eat anything now. It's no longer that you have these kosher laws. So like to just say like, oh, just a person reading from their script, talking about the old covenant, is it's like, that's not a response. Like that's not a rational response. It's just like, it's just like if I said like, oh, here comes the script of the person who says like, so for example, the like this Jupiter fellow is that if they say like, oh, here comes the old covenant, is I could say, okay, oh, here comes the person who says, here comes the old covenant. That's not a refutation of what a person says. It's just saying that that's what they're saying. So honestly, like I said, I'm not trying to pick on skeptics of Christianity per se. There, like I said, there are critics of atheism. There are critics of Islam. There are critics of like everything where they just use arguments that are just so bad sometimes. That it's like, it's like, gosh, like seriously, you don't have to use these crappy arguments. I could teach you stronger arguments from scholarly atheists like J.L. Mackie, William Rowe that are much stronger than the stuff that people get from the West Wing. And they're like, oh, James, you've read scholarly work. You've got a masters in philosophy philosophy. Oh, that's just my favorite YouTubers are better. I was like, they're better than the best atheist scholars out there like J.L. Mackie and William Rowe. Like that's the stuff is I'm suddenly like, you don't have to be this kind of like fundamentalist, whether it be Muslim or Christian or atheists. Like my fundamentalist, what I really mean is just a simpleton who just isn't open-minded to like lifting up their game when it comes to their objections. But yeah, but Dabba, thanks for coming by. See you there in the old live chat. Says keep on rocking in the free world, James. I appreciate that. I'm really important says, is there anything you won't get it subway? Uh, I don't like tuna. I never liked tuna. But then I also heard that they allegedly, the tuna is like not that it's soy of all things. Did you guys know that? I don't know if you heard that, but for real, that was what they had said. But let's see here. Ashy dog. Thanks for coming by. And then devil's advocate, that advocate. Glad you are here. Why Mason glad to have you. Chimney Metta says, why don't you debate something yourself, James? You seem like an informed person. I do actually have a debate. Do you want to see this? I would love to share this. So let me show it with you right now. But yeah, I would just recommend it's good to, you know, consider that's the one thing is sometimes I try to like, I show people these like responses where I'm like, your objections are so bad. And here's like, just there's such clear reasons where like, I can concede. There are hard arguments for Theos. The problem of evil is not an easy argument. It's a hard argument. It's tough, especially the inductive type of problem of evil. There are challenges such as the Trinity, like challenges to the Trinity in the scholarly literature and philosophy are tough. I would concede that, but like at the same time that I would concede, there are hard arguments. And likewise, I would say like, and there are also some really like lousy arguments where people are just like, it's fundamentalist atheism or fundamentalist Islam or Christianity or whatever it is, or it's like I said, it's more informed rather than scholarly works. It's informed by YouTubers who, I'm not saying that all YouTubers don't use high level arguments. Some do, but a lot of them don't for real. And obviously, who do you think you're going to, like who would you rather go with as a whole? In general, if you have to go with scholars or YouTubers, I would go with scholars. But a boy with no face, thanks for coming by. And fighting chicken, thanks for coming by. Happy to have you with us. And General Balzac says, I think folks want to see a new debate, not one from 10 years ago. Yeah, that's true. I'm open to it. I actually offered a debate to Teya, I can't remember her name. She's the CEO of Intelligence Square Debates. I offered, but I don't think she's going to take it. Someone reached out on her behalf saying, oh, I didn't realize it was so late. But anyway, so I'm open to it. It depends on the context and the topic. But anyway, what I was saying was that I would concede there are hard and lousy arguments for any position. But a lot of times I just find some people, they just really won't concede like, hey, okay, I admit, my side, whether it be atheism or Christianity or Islam, they won't concede that their side may have some pretty lousy arguments raised by people on their side that they may even be using. So thanks. Anman says, I'm an atheist. James, you have my greatest respect. You are way too nice of a person, everyone, especially to those who are more aggressive side like me. I appreciate your support, Anman. Seriously, it means a lot. And let's see. Devil's Advocate says, although I believe any doctrine that Leviticus has passed away is false. I don't think your tattoo is a violation of anything in Torah. That's the thing. Mark's on your body for the dead. I don't think subway would count for that because it's not a mark for somebody who died. So ball 91. Thanks for coming by. You see it there in the old live chat. Chin-me-meta. Glad to have you. Thanks for dropping in. And then, Russell Gibson, thanks for your kind words. We'll want to say thanks, everybody. Love you guys. Thanks for your support. Aaron Villareal, thanks for coming by. We are glad that you are here. General Ballistek says, intelligence squared is good, smart, sophisticated conversations. I agree. I was going to have a conversation with Clea on whether or not they are a neutral platform. So I am willing to concede if they are. I would be willing to say it, but that was the topic that I offered. So Light of the Twin lamps says, will we be seeing Anton Haik on a debate soon? I will be reaching out to him for a debate soon. Believe me, it's going to be tremendous. You don't want to miss it. And then, let's see here. Let me take a peek at something. I want to say though, thanks everybody. It's getting super late. So I really should go. Love you guys. Thanks for your support. Really do appreciate you. Hope you have a great rest of your night. We'll be back tomorrow night with a gigantic debate. It's going to be huge. So stick around for that one tomorrow night. We hope to see you then. And I hope you guys have a great rest of your night. Take care.