 Welcome back to the original gangsters podcast. I'm Jimmy Buccio Otto and We're recording another zoom or whatever platform we use stream yard addition here I got my co-conspirator Scott Bernstein in the house Hey now and bonito the man behind the glasses with us I just want to remind you before we get started. Please subscribe to our video channel on YouTube Please subscribe to our podcast on iTunes and Spotify and wherever Google and then also please Support us and follow us on social media. That's a big help So we have a superstar guest today and we're pretty excited about that. We have Dave Wedge New York Times best-selling author and reporter and He has a book that came out not long ago and and you know I've been trying to to book him for the show for some time and talk about this interesting book Thing with evil Taking down the notorious pagan motorcycle. Yeah, there you go So welcome Dave How are you guys? Nice to be here. Thank you Yeah, doing well. Thank you for spending some time with us. Sure. Happy to do it So let's let's talk about your book here. How did Sure, so, you know, I was a reporter in Boston for you know, 25 years I was at the Boston Herald 14 years and You know, I'd covered a lot of a lot of different, you know, organized crime stuff and news and that sort of thing and I did a book in 2018-19 came out in 20 about the Whitey Balder case and you know, it was a case that I'd covered extensively over the years and after Whitey was murdered in prison I Teamed up with another author that I'd written some other books with a guy named Casey Sherman great writer as well and we did a book called hunting Whitey and That was basically about, you know, Whitey Balder's life on the run how he was caught by the FBI His trial what his life was like in prison then how he got murdered So after I was done with that one, you know, it's kind of thinking about what to do next and you know As an author you do a book like that, you know, it was a pretty big book and you know your phone starts ringing and I got a call from an old ATF Friend of mine. It was actually a guy that I played hockey with I played mens league hockey and pick up hockey down here in Boston and um Guy called and he's like, hey, do you remember this guy ken croak? He played with us And I was like, ah, not really and he described him to me and he's like, you know, he's about six three You know bald goatee and I was like, I remember that guy. He was the guy you stayed away from on the ice Um, so he said, you know ken ken's just retired from the ATF and he's got a great story that he's never told He wants to talk to you about it. So as a reporter and an author, you know, you get that sort of call a lot and you know It's always that that meeting you don't take that call that you don't call back that you miss a great story So I was like, all right. Yeah, you know, I'll I'll check it out. I'll come meet with him So I went and I met with him at a Dunkin Donuts down here And I know I'm laying on the Boston pretty thick here with, you know, Dunkin Donuts and everything but uh So I you know, I went and I met ken and Grabbed a coffee. We sat down and he started telling me his story of infiltrating the pagans And um, within you know, five 10 minutes my my jaw was on the floor I couldn't believe what I was hearing and I was like, uh, I think we have a book here and it was like You think and I was like, yeah, I'm pretty sure and um, I talked to my agent Then we started working together and we we banged it out in about a year a little more than a year Let's let's just contextualize for the audience uh The chapter in new york that ken infiltrated Is right now in 2023 It is the nerve center for The pagans nation and it's the a chapter that has spawned Conan the barbarian richter the most notorious biker boss in america right now and this Uh infiltration by by uh ken Infiltrated the leadership in the group that preceded conan Guy named roadblock Blair Was was one of the big shot callers that I know plays a role In your narrative, but this was the long island pagans and Ken got in there for what two two years they called him They called him smash they gave him his own Slam slam. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he the case started up here in boston because ken was an atf Agent out of boston and before that he had been in la for many years And he did some biker work out there He actually worked on that famous mongols case that you guys are probably aware of where there was an infiltration of the mongols and um You know, so ken ken was like the one guy in the agent in the agency in boston that had biker experience so a tip came in that the pagans were trying to start a chapter here in boston and um They were like hey ken why don't you meet with the guys? So he went and met with him went to like a you know an informal gathering like a party at someone's house and They took a liking to him and as I described he's a big giant dude You know six four massive goatee beard. He you know looks the part and uh the case kind of um started from there and it shifted from boston down to long island when Uh, they asked him to be a prospect And when they asked him to your prospect They said we we want you to be a prospect, but you got to come and do it down in new york And the reason they wanted him in new york was because they were in the middle of a really hellacious kind of tense Feud with the hell's angels down there um that that I described in the book And you guys have probably seen the footage of over the years with roadblock Got uh got got beat up pretty bad by some hell's angels outside the clubhouse there in rocky point And there was some other stuff that led up to that so they needed muscle And that's why they brought ken down and that's where it all started fam and I know that um Some of what happened in the late 2000s in in ken's undercover operation Am I stating it correctly the timeline 08 to 10? Yeah, that's right. Yep to that. So if you if you go backwards to 2002 Uh, you had and I'm interested in in getting uh Your perspective and what ken shared with you You had an incident that was uh very very Famous and has there's a lot of mythology around this incident now 20 years later. It's called the hell raisers ball And um it's when uh pagans and hell's angels Spotted out uh at a banquet hall with bats knives guns uh I don't remember was it uh, it was it was a hell's angels event that the pagans raided Yeah, it was it was a it was a tattoo convention and it was it was a hell's angel sponsored event And uh, the the pagans crashed it and uh, literally crashed it and it's one of the most Famous biker kind of public wars that's ever happened where as you said, you know, there was guns knives bats uh, if my memory serves me correctly there was um A pagan that was killed there. Um, and I believe Um, like his name is escaping. I believe the pagan that was killed there was mailman mailman Robert Rutherford who if we want if we want to draw the the line all the way, you know A through line here Conan the barbarian who got busted two years ago with a uh Legal possession of a gun. He was leaving a party in Lancaster, Pennsylvania and driving back To new york city the party that he was at in Lancaster, Pennsylvania Was a annual event that all the pagans go to to celebrate the life of mailman rutherford That's right who passed away in in the o2 hellraisers right and ken ken attended that party a couple of times and That's actually one of the places where he was able to infiltrate the mother club Um, which you know if he listened to that no no, but the ones that don't the mother club is kind of the the uh, like the the board of directors that oversees all the chapters and um, it had never been infiltrated before by law enforcement and uh, ken You know, I'm jumping ahead here But he became a made member a past in member of the long island chapter worked his way up and eventually got put on to um, he was made the sergeant at arms of of the Of the long island chapter and then he was made the um the sergeant at arms of the mother club where he was out there um really kind of watching those guys and he actually Towards the end of the story. I don't want to ruin the whole story for everybody, but he actually was put on the hit squad Which was a very elite Secretive hit squad that a lot of the pagans didn't even know existed And uh, again, I don't want to give away the whole story, but that's kind of when the whole case starts on rabble but Yeah, I mean, you know, uh That that incident the hell raises ball Was really a pivotal moment in the relationship between the hell's angels and the pagans Where you know, there was bad there was always bad blood, but it really escalated With that incident and and there was many many other You know murders and attacks and things like that in the whole case that ken was involved in Was all about retaliation Against the hell's angels the the pagans there in long island and some of the new jersey chapters were plotting to bomb The hell's angels and that that was the the center of the case that ken worked on so can uh Dave or scott, can you contextualize like the the history of that area like new york is all is traditionally considered hell's angels territory. So Uh, can you trace like the origins of this this conflict? Yes, well, you know, the hell's angels are obviously the older of the two gangs and they're The bigger of the two gangs, but my research and you know My experiences with ken and all the people I interviewed for the book was that the pagans seemed to be Uh a bit more of an out a true outlaw gang than the hell's angels You know the hell's angels seem to have Um a faction that is like mainstream people, you know bikers, but they're not necessarily outlaws They just love the biking culture. They love being a part of it and all that sort of stuff the pagans Um pretty much every guy that I looked into Uh was a convicted felon Some were murderers, uh, they there was a lot of drug dealing racketeering that sort of stuff and you know, there's uh, I believe probably about 12 to 1500 pagans around the us right now and They started in maryland Maryland and like all biker gangs they started out as You know folks coming back from the world, you know, world war two in vietnam and korea And they just got into the biking culture and you know, they were outlaws and and uh, you know, the pagans built from there. They're they're very uh Big in pennsylvania, ohio up and down the atlantic seaboard Um, new jersey is very big and they they have a big presence in new york and even uh, There's there's pagans in new york city and now they are in boston They're down in florida and they actually do have some uh west coast presence now as well just to further contextualize and and Give you a kind of a 30 000 foot view of what was going on in the pagans Uh organization at this time in the 2000s This was at at at the point where the seat of power in the organization Had moved from philadelphia uh To new york, I know that um for a time period There was a a national president that was in pittsburgh, but The new york group Gained considerable juice In the 2000s and and relevancy That was kind of in the wake of philadelphia, which had always been Ground zero for pagans or hasn't they always had been ground zero for pagans for the previous 20 25 years By the time you hit the the o2 hellraisers a ball incident is when The pagans in new york In new york, this was the long island chapter Were feeling more and bold and and more empowered and wanting to assert their Their their will and their in their dominance and guys like roblox blair um and then eventually conan the barbarian now conan richter before he went To prison in I think it was 98 or 99 He had been the national Sergeant in arms He went to prison. Uh, it was a bust in 98 Long island pagans that were trying to extort a strip club called the carousel club Uh guy named I think shon mccarthy was his name And they had this guy There's a there's a movie just about this guy. He was like running this strip club And conan ascending guys there to extort him and every time he sends pagans to extort mccarthy mccarthy Beats them up There was a incident where he like beat up like six or seven pagans They came back and they stabbed mccarthy mccarthy still wouldn't Give up any tribute. So conan said let's kill him. They uh, fortunately for mr. mccarthy, uh Stopped the the murder plot before it happened and then conan goes to prison But roblox blair who might not get as much national, uh, you know fanfare was just as formidable of a leader than than conan and was kind of in some ways Planted some of the seeds for what conan is is doing now. That's my take on it. Dave. Do you have any opinion? Yeah, I mean, you know, you know roblox was actually, uh Not the president of that chapter in long island. It was it was a guy named jr The jr ab jr ebbling jr ebbling and jr But roblox and him kind of ran the chapter together Um, there was a great mutual respect there and road roblox had a brother named hogman um, who was it was kind of his his half brother and hogman was like a disgusting filthy being and He was actually a prospect with uh with ken they were prospects together And I think you know part of the drama that happens in our story is that as ken is rising up hogman Is a little I don't want to say jealous of him, but he's a little, you know, it's a competition And I think hogman Was a little angry that that roadblock his brother didn't advance him faster than he advanced ken So there was some tension there within the club with uh, you know with with hogman and ken and you know, we lay out a lot of different Scenes and stories throughout throughout the book where you know ken The thing that I found fascinating with ken is you know He was really able to put himself into that criminal world um in a really You know, obviously in an authentic way, but a very strategic way where he was able to Think his way out of different scenarios that other people would have ended up being made Or arrested or killed or at least, you know brutally assaulted um You know ken likes to say when he does these sort of interviews and he does a lot of talks around the country about The work he did that that he had a good deal of luck on his side, but Knowing him that is true, but he also made his own luck by Making the right move at the right time To not put his his life and his in his vision into jeopardy and a lot of it was with people like roadblock and Um, you know, there's another guy uh from from the gang uh hellboy you guys may remember him Yeah, he just really he just got in trouble a couple years ago. Yeah, he's but he was the one down in new york I think he cracked the guys head open with a bat. Yeah a hell's a hell's angel. Hell's angel, right? And uh, you know hellboy was a guy that um was you know strung out on crystal math. He was constantly uh, you know Selling drugs and selling weapons and buying weapons and it was a great scene in the book with ken and hellboy that They have an explosive in a in a restaurant and ken has to figure out what to do With that explosive and that's one of these examples of how just you know Shit luck, but also his uh strategic mind got him out of this situation where he was able to Not only get hellboy away. He was able to get the explosion explosive away from hellboy Got it to a safe place Without getting made and then was able to get the bomb squad to come in and take custody of that explosive Without anyone getting hurt and you know, and I don't want to again don't give it all the way But when you read how he did it it's pretty fascinating and and ken was so good at what he did that At the end of the case when when the jig is up and they end up, you know All the arrest warrants go out and they bust all these guys. They do all the raids Ken's back in the police station in in long island and he's got his badge around his neck you know his lanyard or whatever and hellboys and they're being questioned And even when ken was in there dressed as in his cock clothes hellboy still refused to believe that ken was a cop And let me ask like I know you don't want to give too much way But how does he like to start off if you can describe a little bit at least How does he endear himself to that? I always find that interesting whether it's guys who infiltrate cosinostra families or Or bikers. I mean, how how do you endear yourself? In that atmosphere and the culture can you give us all that they tell them the story of how he got the nickname I think that's one of the ways he endeared himself. Yeah. Yeah. No that that's a good point. So You know initially it's just a matter of you know street smarts and playing the role And as I said ken had had done a lot of biker cases out on the west coast So he knew the culture He already had a backstory that if they looked into it They would find that was true that he had a criminal record under his alias, which was ken palace and when he first started going down to long island And he was prospecting, you know those guys they hang out in bars. They do that sort of stuff They go to parties and and all this and and there was an incident at a bar down in rocky point Where it was a pagan bar and some guy Put his hands on jr And anybody that knows biker culture knows you touch the president and there's a problem So they told ken they said take this guy outside. We're going to tune him up so they're they're uh You know, they're they're heading outside and this guy's like, you know, you know, he knows he's going to get a beating and uh as they're as they're going outside ken Picks them up off the port. They're they're on like a deck like a wooden deck And they're walking out the back of the bar and ken picks the guy up and Slams him and the guy bounces off the ground. It's like big loud And and it was a really loud body slam and ken did that Not only to show these guys What he was doing, but he knew Doing that wasn't going to kill the guy and and as opposed to hitting him with a pool cue Punching him kicking him, you know doing something like that like a body slam He knows he shows those guys he means business But he's not really going so far that he's going to really put this person in the hospital The guy ended up getting tuned up pretty good by by a bunch of the guys and and ken Um did what he had to do to get out of there and get that guy out of there Basically, he let them, you know tune him up a little bit and then ken kind of uh, you know Participated in the beating However, you want to say it and he got him away and it was current to get out of here before you killed And after that they were like, oh, dude, you slam that guy and then they started calling him slam and that became his club nickname That's great. Yeah, I mean pretty wild all the clubs have great nicknames, but the guys that were banding about here, uh You know hogman whose real name I think is kenny van diver Hellboy whose real name is I think robert derrondi, but it sounds better to call them hellboy and hogman Conan Keith rickter and and roblox just uh It's like something that you'd find in a um a screenwriter's room in hollywood Uh making these guys up, but these are real You know flesh and flesh and bone. I mean these these guys, uh aren't coming off of a A screenwriter's script the these guys live it and I've always said that And I'm interested in to get Dave's perspective on this You know as you know in my crime writing experience Until I encountered Outlaw biker culture I mean I had no idea I had done a lot of reporting and interacting with Italian organized crime African-american organized crime Jewish and irish organized crime but about uh 10 12 years ago, I got exposed to the outlaw biker culture in in detroit And it was like as much as I had seen This was the way I had described it is this is the fringe of the fringe uh, and it just was like It was a it was so different than all the other organized crime that I had covered a lot of uh Parallels not different in some of the fundamentals But different in the day to day Can you kind of speak to your exposure to that and you know how it compared to your previous uh reporting? Yeah, the same, you know, I had a lot of experience covering, you know, obviously up here in boston the irish mob the italian mob I had done a lot of you know street gang stuff with the you know the inner city gangs triad gangs and in uh, you know china town russian organized crime um but You know nothing quite prepares you for uh biker culture and because there's another layer to it that That you know, you maybe don't see with some of those other organized crime factions, which is the outlaw Uh lifestyle, you know and the nomadic lifestyle And it's my design and as I said, you know, a lot of these these pagans are Are, you know, very nomadic they operate outside of the normal government structures, you know, and um There were some that had you know fronts for like a normal life like You know roadblock. I believe it was was like a volunteer fireman, you know in the town but the real reason he did that was you know, I guess to to have a civic Purpose in some fashion, but really it was to Give himself the image of legitimacy so that he could glean information about what the town's doing You know what the government's doing what the police are doing, you know And so that he has people he can go to If there's a question about something the gang's doing he can get some intelligence on You know where their vulnerabilities might be Um, so that that was always fascinating to me was that the other thing That I I learned a lot about during the research and the writing of this book was you know, just the old school tactics employed by By the bikers and by the pagans in particular one of which being the old school shakedown You know, they they just they shook down bar owners They literally went and ken was with them when they did it They went bar to bar on the boardwalk down in wildwood, new jersey or it might have been elizabeth I I can't remember which town it was but they they literally would go Walk into each establishment and Some of them were ready for it. They just hand them an envelope Some of them they just go to the bartender and say pay up And they you know, they all did and you know, and this wasn't in 1978 or 1948 This was in 2008, you know in 2009 2010, so it's not that long ago It's it's a racket that they still are engaged in And it's frankly a racket that works. It's these are cash businesses And they know You know, there's there doesn't even have to be a threat of violence. They don't even have to say Give me the money or I'm going to kill you. They just they have very presence there With their colors lets those people know if they don't pay one of two things is going to happen They're going to get hurt Or their business is going to be ruined by a bunch of bikers hanging out there causing trouble So it's fascinating. It's a fascinating culture And then that money is you know a percentage that has kicked up to the mother club And that was a big part of the riko case that the chem was able to build was He drew that direct line from the street money to the mother club and he showed that it was a Corrupt organization I was wondering if you could Speak to that because when I've done field research and not I don't think I've Interviewed as many people as scott has but doing field research talking to people who are part of that culture A pushback that I hear from them is they say well They may acknowledge that certain individual members may be involved in organized criminal activities But that's on them and that's not The club's decision or that the club orchestrates something like that and that it's it's um, it's unfair to For law enforcement to target an entire club for some kind of conspiracy when You know, they're not responsible for the behaviors of of their individual members um, obviously uncle sam doesn't believe that But i'm intrigued by that as a criminologist. Uh, can you can you speak to that? debate Yeah, sure. Um You know That that is true in a lot of organizations where you know, like I said the hell's angels, you know You have a chapter you may have some guys that Live at home with their family and they're they they're dentists. So they have a you know a job They run a construction business and you know, they may operate within the government framework And they just like to be you know, they like to be a hell's angel and travel and and get that notoriety that comes with it But they aren't violent and they aren't criminals that happens uh, unfortunately for the pagans ken was able to get on record Record the only time that anyone had ever captured the recording of a church session And church for the pagans is basically their planning meetings They're their weekly church where all the members go And they outline all the club business and unfortunately for them the ones that were caught on tape There was a lot of talk of violent crimes um, you know extortion shakedowns, uh And in plotting attacks on the hell's angels and these were coordinated Conspiracies that happened and they were they were coordinated by the leadership of the club and by having those on tape Um, it was irrefutable evidence that the organization was was corrupt and that they their their purpose was crime Dave did can have any um crossover Interactions when he was with or when he was undercover with the pagans where they were dealing with A traditional italian organized crime That's a good question. You know, there was the My memory is not what it used to be guys. So I apologize. Um, but uh, there was some situations where there was talk of the pagans doing some body work for the uh, the lakosa nostra um, I don't believe it ever materialized in this case, but You know from my research and from my interviews with with people and from my many conversations with ken It's pretty common that that you know, the mafia will farm out um contract work To to to bikers right just as it's very common for the bikers to farm out Work to street gangs, you know Crips bloods whoever they need to deal with buying guns selling guns buying drugs selling Selling drugs and you know The mafia has plenty of their own murderers and killers But if they can get it a step away from them with another organization Like the pagans that that's that's a tool in their toolbox. Yeah, I've never started interrupts guy In dave's book. I think you specifically mentioned the colombos At one point was because I mean i'm interested in that. I know that When it comes to the philadelphia pagans They've had a long Time relationship Most of it positive With the bruno scarfo crime family. I mean dating back to the to the 70s Um, there was a period of time. I think in the 80s where they were at odds But for the most part in their relationship, it's been very symbiotic and I scratch your back you scratch mine. We we both benefit from it With the power moving up or with the power moving to new york I have heard the the rumors and the stories and the allegations but unlike in pennsylvania where you can actually see government documentation Of this guy meeting with this guy these guys doing stuff together. I haven't been able to find that in new york I'm not saying that doesn't exist But i've always been interested in that long island chapter. I just You just I don't know how they couldn't Be doing Some dovetailing with the wise guys that are out in long island. There's So many of them that are you know from the queens the bronx brooklyn that move out to long island to you know Raise their families or whatever So I was just I was interested to see if if ken had any first First-hand experience without Yeah, well, um, you know He jogged my memory a little bit if my memory serves me correct again I uh, I believe roadblock had kind of bragged to ken a little bit or or talked to him at times about Having a guy in the gambino family that he dealt with on a regular basis And that there would be some work coming their way Uh, and as a as a cop, you know investigating that group ken I pursued that But never like I said, it never materialized the way they needed it to to become part of the case But I agree with you. I mean I think you know These worlds are are um, are pretty small in in these you know, these these universes Collide with each other regularly and you know, if you're A violent street gang or a violent biker gang in long island It's not going to be long before you get a visit from someone who will tell you that it's their territory, you know, and And you know, there's there's always someone to pay tribute to so Well, we didn't get into a lot of that but you know, there was enough there that that I I feel pretty confident in saying that there's a pretty um regular ongoing relationship at some some level there just going to to your hometown You know in boston Me and jimmy heard reports At some point in the last 10 years jerry and julo passed away long time under boss of the patriarchy crime family based out of the north end And you know, we heard that there was a whole contingent of hell's angels That came to pay the other final respects to to jerry and jerry hadn't been on this I mean, he was out of prison for a couple years before he died Living very quietly as his health deteriorated, but he hadn't really been on the street As a major player since like 1983 or 84 So the fact that you would have a group of hell's angels in the 2010s uh Come to his funeral and in a public showing of support I think I think there's something to be Some nuggets to to be taken away from that in terms of being able to glean What that relationship means and how it still exists today between these you know these two groups Well, I would say, you know part of that is respect, you know jerry and julo is you know to the name of your Podcast he was an og, you know, and he had the street cred. He had the street respect, you know, he ran the mob in boston He also served prison time So you you know white guy in prison white italian wouldn't be unusual for him to have some layer of uh protection or relationship or mutually beneficial relationship with Hell's angels and even you know area nation guys and a lot of the area nation guys in prison are Are Hell's angels they're pagans, you know, and So there's that whole thing. Um, and you know just historically here in boston the organized crime factions have always um Kind of fed off each other Fueled each other, you know the whole whitey bulger case. Look at it. What's that all about? It's all about Whitey ratting out the italian mafia, but at the same time, you know whitey used mafia soldiers To his needs at times, you know it needed some muscle on a case and he needed had to be a mafia guy Whitey wanted to remove The italian mobsters that he didn't like guys like the and julos guys like Joe Russo and Vinny the animal and then replace them with a a guy that was Easier to deal with in his mind catillac frank solemny um Who wasn't from that same group was still an italian mob guy, but it wasn't that And tell me if you think i'm wrong. I don't want to Undermine what you're saying, but it wasn't that whitey didn't Necessarily want italians around he just wanted italians that were loyal to hint Yeah, no that that's a hundred percent accurate and uh, I mean, you know, steve flemmy was his right hand man He's italian and he never got he was at all italian that was the second in charge of the irish mob That's right. And you know kind kind of like, you know, henry hill and good fellas, you know, he's not Could never be a made guy same thing was with flemmy. He wasn't pure italian But you know catillac frank solemny they they had a lot of dealings over the years um, and you know, you're right I mean whitey Wanted those old school og's out of the way because they would they would Chippin off of you know the top of the money from him and that he wanted that money and um, you know His whole strategy was to get rid of them so that he could be the kingpin and you know I think that you know to the broader point here with with the pagans The pagans aren't stupid, you know and but they are street guys and if I don't care if it's a mafia guy russian mafia or or you know Crips and Bloods if they offer the right pig and the right amount of money to take care of some business They're gonna they're gonna do it Yeah, I would just say um, I know I again, I know this kind of conversation It's not a large part of your book, but but it is interesting. We're talking about it What I've heard from street sources so you could you could take it for what it is that in terms of underworld politics diplomacy that um apparently the hell's angels have Traditionally pretty close with some cosinostra groups in like the bronx and places like that and that the pagans on long island sort of monitor that Just to make sure like because they're obviously in conflict with the hell's angels and just to your point dave to make sure you don't like um accidentally get ensnared in some other kind of problem with another group that you don't necessarily want a problem with so, um That's just something that I've heard Yeah, no look at uh, you know in intra gang Politics is very real and you know these guys take their Hierarchy very seriously as you guys are well aware you guys do this for a living You know you you guys clearly do your homework, you know I'm impressed with with the knowledge of the the irish mob and the italian mob up here that you guys have and um, you know It's it's just one of those things where If you get to a certain level and organize crime, you're gonna have to deal with the politics It's gonna happen And uh, that's what happened with the pagans and that's what happens with every single organized crime uh faction that that has ever existed at some point there's someone bigger With a bigger army that's gonna want to talk to you Benny can hit go ahead. Sorry jimmy go ahead. I was just well go ahead. Go ahead It's gotta make your i'll say benny can can hit the siren here, but just for dave's knowledge I work with frank salemi for a short period of time On his autobiography that never saw the light of day but uh I enjoyed my time interacting with him and Thought it would have been a great project if we would have ever been able to do it, but He canceled it kind of out of the blue after we'd been talking for a couple weeks um, maybe it was a month or two and I didn't really know why and then like Six months later. They dug up steve just our host body So it just wasn't it wasn't meant it wasn't meant to be right. So you learned why yeah, sorry jimmy go ahead Yeah, so one thing else I wanted to ask dave about your reporting and your conversations with ken so As you mentioned in some cases even if When when they're outlaw bikers that they have this like fringe lifestyle But but they don't necessarily always live like that a lot of these guys live in the suburbs have families the one guys a volunteer firefighter they sometimes donate stuff to charity that can run into any kind of Frustration in the sense of like the that the community In which these guys live in like they don't necessarily have a problem with the bikers And you see parallels with the Italians in the Irish for the sort of attitude of like hey Look, this guy might be an outlaw biker, but he doesn't bother me. He's a good neighbor You know, he's a volunteer firefighter. He ain't beaten up me or anyone. I know so What's the big problem? Is that is that a dynamic that undercover agents have to encounter overcome? Yeah, a lot of times yes, but you know, I think the bikers are slightly different because of just the optics, you know A Mother and her daughter going to dance in school on a Saturday afternoon and see a group of pagans They're going to be scared, you know, they're going to be worried just like, you know, they see a group of It's it's a little more intimidating than seeing a couple old Italian guys in the core, you know So there's an intimidation factor With with the biker gangs and you know one thing That I learned is you know when they do the um I forget the term they use you guys will probably know but they they do you know They do the rides through the towns when they when they go On these they go to these big mandatory events like in Lancaster Pennsylvania the middle of nowhere and they saddle up and a thousand pagans go ripping through the town with you know all wearing their colors and It's it's basically a show of force is what it is. It says we're here We're in charge of this town for the weekend Back off and you know the way it was described to me You know that event in Lancaster and similar ones out in Ohio and and even down in wildwood It becomes something where the police Really stay away from it as much as they can, you know, unless there's shootings They they're not going in there. They're not going there to break up Parties or break up crowds because that's a lose lose, you know Um Yeah, I think something has changed a little bit with the perception at least for some with like Hollywood like Sons of Anarchy and things like that where In some cases some some people find it like exciting to see a group of outlaw bikers riding through the town You know shake things up a bit. Um, and and my understanding again Just from what field research I've done is that there's becoming an issue with like these poser clubs People people who watch too much Sons of Anarchy and then think they can start up an outlaw a so-called 1% or club until they run into some actual 1% Well, that happens in in in the book, you know, there's a scene down at wildwood at the roar to the shore We're one, uh, there's a you know the rule down there is, you know No one flies their colors except for the pagans Um, and there was a guy that went by would like some fake, you know puppet club Um, and he you know, he got he got tuned up There's another great story to your point would like people being kind of starry eyed with these bikers Um, because of hollywood depictions and that sort of thing Uh down on the boardwalk 10 was with a bunch of pagans and he tells a story about, you know A mom and her little kids coming up and taking pictures with them and stuff and he actually can't actually pull the little kid aside And was like don't ever be like me, you know, and here he is an undercover cop But he's talking to the kid as slam, you know So it's one of those kind of poignant moments in the book that we talk about And there's a whole family element where, you know, ken juggled that whole life as a dad You know, he had three little girls at home at the time and um You know living as a There's one actually one other hilarious scene that I have to just mention Uh speaking of sons of anarchy. He said the guys love to watch it And they would sit and they would watch it Basically to make fun of it and and say what bullshit it was And so ten ten saying, you know, here I am a fake biker with a bunch of real bikers watching a show about fake bikers Our imitating life life imitating our exactly. Yeah But we're winding up winding down here. We got a couple more minutes. Uh, I want to Throw something out at Dave and get his take on because I think there's been some club uh protocol Alterations I would say in the last 10 years since ken went undercover and I know from reading your book and I agree with this wholeheartedly and in a lot of my research That there are strands and sometimes more than just strands of of white nationalism a white supremacy that Filtered through these these outlaw biker clubs What I've been told in my reporting since Heath Richter took over and announced his Uh blue wave expansion campaign to spread the the pagans brand around the country was that he lifted a I don't know if it was a ban or uh, he basically opened up the door to the pagans or non-whites uh, particularly targeting in his recruiting uh, Latinos and Hispanics and his Reputed numb. I don't even I don't even think it's reputed. I think it's acknowledged his number two Uh, or the vice president that the national vice president is is hugo. Uh, nieves or they call zoro So is this something that you and ken have talked about that's like, oh wow, that's different than it was 15 years ago And what do you think that signifies? Yeah, we we talked about that a lot because that was a pretty big theme in the book where the guys that ken dealt with Uh, he dealt with a lot of white supremacists nazis Nazi tattoos the iron cross the swastika or all that stuff. Um, There was a there's a scene in the book where tens at one of the mandatory's and and uh, some guy Some pagan forces them to hand out a bunch of um Really disgusting Racist literature, you know comparing blacks to to animals and things like that and So that it was in ken said, you know, it was pretty widely accepted that that was the culture when ken was in There was no blacks at all But there was uh, kano was was uh, was one of the leaders At the time and he was a latino guy um, so latinos seemed to have a little bit of um leeway to get into the club, but there were no african-americans um, my understanding from, you know, I haven't talked to ken in a while about this issue But the last time we talked about it and you know the past year or two um that they were kind of um, relaxing that kind of restriction a little bit and they were letting more non whites into the into the gang but you know What what I think it is more than more than them Not being racist. It's a numbers thing. You know, they need They need more it's a tactical decision in my you know in my analysis if you're going to expand west You need to have a latino presence if you're going to be on the west coast You need you need that because the mongols are you know, they're in the logos I mean those guys are heavily latino And uh, you know biker culture in general is a big thing in the latino culture Um, and if the pagans want to keep expanding um, they're gonna have to let in some people that um, aren't aren't you know pure blood as as the areas would say Uh, one of the last questions here, um, then we'll we'll find out what you're working on next and how people can can look up Find out more about dave, but um scott's done a lot of reporting about the these so-called blue wave mandate and I know I know that's um your book predates that a bit but um, do you have any thoughts on that like, um In terms of this very big it's very ambitious right what rick is trying to do. I mean, it's very bold Yeah, yeah, so based on you being in the trenches there. What what are your thoughts on that gave? Well, I mean, it's not surprising. I mean part of the reason ken and them did this case was because they wanted to Expose the tactics to give law enforcement around the country a tool To stop the expansion and more more importantly to stop the criminal activity or at least recognize it when it's happening so they can deal with it Um, and what ken, you know ken wasn't able to stop the pagans. Nothing's going to stop a street gang But what he was able to do was glean it was glean Invaluable information, uh for law enforcement You know really forever and ken's constantly being called by uh law enforcement agencies around the world and asked for you know Advice and guidance on how to handle certain situations and for him to try to Help them identify What exactly a gang might or might not be doing? And that's information you can only get from being inside the gang um Which again ken's the only cop to ever get inside the pagans so That's information that you know goes to the grave with ken and everyone that can use it now they'd be wise to but To the point of expanding You know, I I understand totally why Conan would want to do that. Um, you know, the hell's angels are the are the much bigger gang much more recognizable gang But you know strength in numbers, you know, and um, we live in a world that's digital now and to have a nomadic Organization that can be successful you need more numbers because if you stop putting it on the internet And using cell phones and doing all that stuff as opposed to hand to hand and face to face You're increasing your risk of of being being captured or caught Yeah, good insight dave appreciate that so jimmy can I just throw one thing out real quick? Yeah, sure And I just want to clarify this with dave and for our audience is it it might be interesting to them uh The last 48 hours of ken's undercover work Am I right to say that that was at the the roar on the shore? Uh, which was a gathering of pagans in wildwood new jersey I think in 2010 when the investigation was coming to an end And roblox player stood up In a hotel suite and gave a speech that I think ken recorded Where he was threatening or telling his men to go kill hell's angels And then I I just want to make sure I have the timeline correct and then within like 12 hours They pulled ken From his undercover work and they arrested everybody. Is that true? Yeah, I'm not sure of the exact timeline, but that's that's Sounds about right. It was it was certainly that uh speech You know, it was basically like, you know roadblock had gotten That beating from from the house angels and it was a rallying cry to to to launch their offensive You know the counter offensive on the house angels and that was really what precipitated the uh, you know The end of the case in addition to there was a hit put out that ken was Supposed to be involved in he was supposed to be carrying out a hit with hellboy and other members of the hit squad And that was the moment where you know the atf Finally all the factions that have been disagreeing about where to go with the case when to end it and all that stuff Finally said, yeah, it's it's probably time to get him out and you know, ken was at at great risk at that point of Either getting killed or getting outed which would have resulted in him getting killed So dramatic and his undercover work. It's it's very cinematic. I just wanted to I I was pretty sure that I read that and I think I actually might have wrote it 10 years ago, but I just wanted to clarify it with the experts expert Yeah, yeah, no, it was uh, Absolutely dramatic and the clock was ticking. Uh, you know what the last thing I mentioned one thing We didn't talk about was ken actually got arrested while he was a pagan So he got arrested and kept his cover through his incarceration. It was only a few days, but um, he had to You know be a fake pagan in jail And and uh put up that front so that he didn't blow his cover completely and blow the case And that was a pivotal moment in the story because that's when the clock started ticking Once that happened The case would either have to go to trial or the da would have to throw it out because they know he's not a real pagan And so Neither one of those things could happen or or ken would have been outed So once he got arrested the clock started ticking that they had to wrap the case up Well, I I encourage our audience members to check out Dave's book with ken riding with evil taking down the notorious pagan motorcycle gang And um, also your your book on whitey bolder, too I think our audience would be interested in so dave as we finish up here How can people find out more about your books and do you have anything coming up you'd like to share with us? Yeah, no, I'm I've got a couple of projects that i'm i'm kind of kicking the tires on right now I haven't really landed yet on what what i'm going to do next to my book, but um, we are working on uh, Developing riding with evil. We hope to have some news soon, but you know, the strike isn't too helpful right now Oh, that would be awesome. I yes, I've been I don't know why there haven't been more television shows and movies about cops infiltrating biker Clubs because there's been a zillion of them about cops Infiltrating mafia groups. Well from from your lips to god's ears as they say We're hoping to get that done That's a big one. We actually just did we adapted the whitey bulger book for a stage show that we just did in boston Um, I sold out one night performance with neil mcdonough start as Neal from band of brothers and american horror store in yellowstone Yeah, that was a and we're developing that further We're going to try to bring it into a bigger production take it around the country Um, so that that's going on those are the big ones, but if people want to reach out they can find me on social media Uh, probably the best is is probably instagram at at david m wedge And uh, yeah Last I promise last question black mass like it or love it or don't like it at all It was good. I'm friends with kevin collin. He's a pal of mine And I know shelly murphy and the book's wonderful and you know The book is one of the greatest organized crime books. Yeah, that's ever been written. I'm not talking about the book I'm talking about the johnny depp movie. Oh, no, I know. Yeah, it was based on the book based on the book So actually neil neil mcdonough was in the mix for that But obviously johnny depp's the biggest star. So he got the rule, but I thought johnny depp was okay I didn't love the story the way they portrayed it. Um, they tried to humanize them, but I don't think it fully worked I agree. Um, I I you know, it was okay. I give it like a b minus, you know c plus You know, I like the departed better frankly much much better. Thank you great Sorry, I caught you a little off guard, but I wanted to know Someone from boston who's actually reported on whitey bulger if they like that movie or if they saw value in it Yeah, no, it's I I've always for these movies being made, you know, but uh, I didn't love black mass that movie didn't seem to resonate with the public That's one of the reasons I wanted to ask. Well, I think I think depp looked weird in the role He just he looked weird. He didn't look scary or he didn't look like whitey He just looked like a weird guy in a costume. They say and they as crazy as they made him to be in that movie They sanitized him. Yeah, you just said they took away all of the the sexual craziness with him Praying on young boys and girls and then he was like asexual in the movie Which nickelson touched on in the departed Right, which the departed had the balls to actually address it Right, right, which is why I out of the reason I digress. I digress Well, thanks. Thanks again, dave. This was great. I loved it. I loved it. Yeah Great to meet you. Take care. Thanks. Take care, dave And thanks everyone for listening to the original gangsters podcast. Uh, i'm jimmy butchilato Scott bernstein. We're out