 Hey greetings Hello, I Shoot Gil's connecting. I had trouble with my audio in zoom on my last call and I'm not hearing you But it's very likely my problem not yours Let me just see when Gil gets in if I can hear him. If not, I've got to reboot my machine and come back Nice to meet you. I'm I'm Jerry Hey, Jerry, you can't hear me. I'm not hearing a word gill. Do you hear me? Yes, but I don't see you I hear you both. I hear you and Craig. I Don't hear a soul. So my zoom is not happy Nobody has souls. I now hear people. That's great. I'm back Do you hear us Jerry? I see live people. They don't know they're alive I Haven't you got a haircut I did I did I get one like every six weeks for my daughter. It's kind of a You know, and then it bushes out But your chin is resistant Kevin. What's that your chin is resisting My chin is resistant. Yeah, I have this thing. I do myself on my chin It's a little great and a rake or whatever it is a little beard comb Yeah, no, it's a it's a thing on top of a razor that is a thing Okay, or is it like a leaf blower? Uh, well, I use a mower. Maybe it's like a leaf blower a Leaf blower could give you that give you that wow No one's notice You did yeah, it's looking less You look far less unabombered that I can really You know, my wife kept saying you look like Ted Kaczynski. So This is what I miss when I don't come really early You could you could get a lot of this, you know Yeah, we don't usually engage in beard talk right we did when you Cool That's a nice pun. That's that's that was good Ken. How did you not do that first? Okay, just first. Oh, I haven't had I haven't been drinking coffee is the problem. No, it's just herbal teas Herbal teas will get you They will I'm trying to get my there we go I went out to right. I'm trying to get my matter most chat up next to the Yeah, well, we're trying to make our chat persistent. Well, what's going on? George, are you in Texas? What's going on behind my now in New York? It looks like tech. Oh, yeah What a mess in Texas What a dangerous dangerous Mexico so Perfect, it's a multiple mess because you know the physical circumstances and obvious mess people in Dallas without electricity water or sewer Pretty messy, but then the story is such a mess, you know the immediate claims from Fox, etc Right just bizarre and you know it's actually because Texas decided fuck everybody else with your own grid They deregulated the grid that which lowered the cost of power which means they spend less on infrastructure So all of it can break and they didn't and they didn't buy the cold weather package for the wind generators When I left the showroom they didn't get the thing on the bottom that they Whatever it's a little bit like it's a little bit like the 737 the Boeing 737 max Where they made the sensor that would tell you if the two sensors that they made the warning light that would tell you if the two sensors weren't working on added feature that you had to buy It's just completely nuts Completely and totally off the charts. There's that you're profound deep in confidence at one level But then the you know the the rush to tell the propaganda story I'm in New York and We get much worse than Texas How to go out and buy a $20,000 generator a few years ago, and we're on the regular power grid Yeah, I think there's a little something wrong with that reasoning Well, I think some places know how to deal with with snow and bad weather in some places don't I had to drive Doesn't I had to drive from Connecticut to Boston after a blizzard many many years ago my first career as a tech industry analyst and The Connecticut Pike was miserable and I did like a two three sixties on the freeway Just trying to get up to the mass pike the moment that crossed onto the mass pike. It's like, oh This is what a road supposed to be like same blizzard. Same blizzard. It's just the Massachusetts knew what to do At least in that day. It was interesting so how the conversation Converged right because Tucker Carlson made this big statement about windmills The government Abbot made the comet on windmills and then it started to get really technical so instead of having arguments the Explanation was there's water in the gas which causes gas pipelines to freeze up Even nuclear power plants haven't been vint to rise. So all of a sudden there is just raw data Coming out to to make the arguments and I think that really is how we have to move forward here And is that I mean is does anybody have a feeling that that's working because I watched Tucker's clip on YouTube about? Texas is 100% wind power and therefore wind is terrible there for the Green New Deal is a miserable thing and I'm like How we learned how to do that From Trump or because of Trump, I'm saying It's the same it's the same thing 30% of the country believes Tucker Carlson and 60% believes, you know the reality Confirmation bias and fit it into whatever they believe Neil We've got aging networks. They're complicated. They're engineered. They're linear They try to connect them in Australia. They had a major problem in 2016 with A big storm that blew through two tornadoes came through South Australia They blame the wind turbines because Australia because South Australia had a progressive government that was going down a renewable energy pathway it's complicated because the energy grid is designed to carry the constant loads that come from the spinning loads of coal and gas and various other powered fire station power stations But the renewable load is more variable the issue was in that case that the Wind turbines had a tripping mechanism that when the rest of the system went down They were more finely tuned to go down faster not to preserve the wind turbine to preserve the network and So there were better risk managers When the system went down because the power lines came down major power pylons collapsed Right not the wind turbines the wind turbines turned off not because they couldn't run But because the system the grid was insufficient to cope with what they would be able to provide and So the inquiry is more complex because it does get technical But the political blame game will always be played on who has the vested interests as an outsider watching what's happened Texas has got a separate grid system not connected to the main major grid Deliberately to favor those people who benefit from power generation Every power grid in the world in countries that aren't progressive enough to recognize. We're in the middle of collapse Is not doing anything to maintain it because the people that reap the benefits the oligarchy that gets the money Don't want to maintain the small pumps and that these are motors and the kick-in generators and things to actually prop up The system maintenance not the actual grid They don't care about the grid, but if the system maintenance doesn't work Then the thing collapses. So the first thing is point the finger at the newcomer not at the others now in Australia Elon Musk then stepped in and provided the world's biggest battery and the South Australian grid won't runs much more stably than the other states and is getting close to 80% You know when generation on some days so to watch this again It is deliberate propaganda to favor vested interests and generally to try and take advantage of the fact that it's too technical For a typical punter to understand and by the way, we haven't got power. We haven't got water and we haven't got gas And there's a multitude of OGM e-angles on this this whole thing Maybe chief among them are high on that list on my list is how do you convince policy makers around these thorny sort of pretty technical issues? How do you get policy makers to make better policy? You know just pretty simply in that sense Anyway Can I just reflect even though Tucker was sort of our entry into this conversation? He's kind of a proxy for Trump Can I just say how nice it is to wake up in the mornings and not be thinking top of mind what what awful thing Trump did on that day It's like I'm breathing easier. My my soul feels a little lighter Yesterday they imploded the Trump the Trump Plaza in Atlantic City and there was something metaphorically just healing about that. I don't know Yeah, so So let's go through a check-in round Bring us in we'll talk about what kinds of OGM e-things are happening in our lives It's perfectly fine to pass if you don't want to step in so let's go Klaus Scott Judy Okay first Yeah, this has been this has been an amazing An amazing week because the conversations are finally shifting into evidence and science space I got Really interesting invitation to a conversation. I'm just putting the link on there Where the the statement to it really is that After the election it is becoming obvious that the division will Continue and that we will continue to stalemate and so how How can a democracy survive When one group is so violently opposed to the changes that the other group Fields are existential and necessary and that seems to be And to keep to keep the peace in the process you know of Of making all these changes and I think that's the conversation. We're having forward going forward I'm working on Another case to crown webinar with which will be hosted by the president of the Sierra Club this time and the focus is completely on what next what are we going to do next here and Put this thing in here because there is There's this this time requires a Level of civic engagement and and participation that we haven't been used to Yeah, I will repost it on the matter mostly here. So anyway The the discussions particularly in the NGO world Need to be consolidated we need to come on a common platform Because we are neutralizing each other with so many little sidekicks and and excursions into topics that are That are important, but they're not really timely at this point To change the discussion and move us forward collectively. I think this is an amazingly dangerous time Which will be Shaping our future in a profound way, and I think it's in the middle of this what takes right now Love that. Thanks class Oops, let's go Scott Judy Neal Hey everyone, no video today, but You all remember what I look like so The the thought that I had this morning You had to remind us didn't you? Yes, I had to I had to I was thinking about where I went wrong with my thinking skills program and It was hard to discern, but I realized that it was as soon as I started thinking about selling it That was what That was the blocker So once you start thinking about selling something then you're thinking about What do I need to do to change it to make it more? Sellable and what I realized is that I need to make it more shareable first Once I get to the point where it's actually shareable with another person then sellable can come later and shareable means that I I figured it out for myself and I've been true to my vision and that I've you know incorporated the wonderful feedback I've gotten from others But that if I don't get to the point of being shareable The value is only for me Yeah, there's a lot of value. I've really enjoyed where I've come to with this, but if no one else Can receive it then I Haven't done anything so I realized I put As soon as I took the sellable off the table I realized that I feel much lighter about it and It's just it's just great. So that's where I am. Oh, that's got George. Go ahead I just want to make a comment on what Scott said Scott. Can I offer you a reframing of that rather than take? Selling it off the table. I think it might be a good idea to put it back on the table With by thinking about how do you make something more valuable? Should I always think about selling it in the in the framework of I want to create maximum value Selling to me is only helping people make the best decision possible By making my product the best possible product. So just offer that offer you that to think about I Appreciate that George. Thank you. I think my my I Agree with that and what I'm trying to do now is to make Maybe it's a more to greater distinction here making selling the second step Instead of trying to make that the first step and yeah, but thank you all And I think that what you're bringing up Scott and George is a really interesting piece of our journey together Which is what is the new set of business models and platforms? How do we? One of the questions that's active for me is how do we make a profit while minding and improving the commons? Instead of while mining and sequestering the commons So I have a I have a the start of an essay called mind. Don't mind And trying to figure out, you know, how that how that plays out because because the general if you're an entrepreneur The general first thing is how do I lock it down? How do I make a profit? How do I sell it? And Scott, I think your instinct is really like very OGM. It's like, okay How do I how do I propagate it? How do I share it? Then how then what's the business model that folds around that? And George, I think you're you're reframing is is trying to get some sensitivity around those issues And I think part of what we can do together is figure out some of that language and you know, how does this work? What happens? Judy Neil Angel I've been pretty busy this past week on diversity issues working on some things with the university as well as with other groups in town There was a really excellent annual diversity Meeting for the biomedical engineering department at the U of M. It's a two-hour program with First hour being an overview of all of the different actions that they have underway in the groups that people can participate in The second hour was a panel of nine university professors BIPOC and character From across the country talking about their universities and personal experiences and that kind of thing I thought it was a really excellent diversity initiative framing for a much larger community That was awesome. Thank you Neil Angel Vincent Love to see you all again. Sorry for dropping in and out on different occasions with the timing been having ongoing discussions with Fallon grant here who I met in this forum here, so It just happens to overlap with this time a lot of the time. I'm calling in from Belgium I have recovered from the whiplash of sliding on the Slippery's ground I've ever encountered with frozen frozen ground, but I wasn't expecting it Luckily didn't do any damage to my spine But stretched all the muscles in my neck and took about three days four days for it to come good again So that was a bit of a bummer literally, but it could have been worse. Um, I know how to dodge the white bits I didn't know how to dodge the brown bits. I thought the brown bits would be less slippery, but I was wrong black eyes so the other thing we've been doing with my partner and here in Belgium and partner in Australia David Jago looking very deeply at our individual and collective callings around social ecological collapse and how do we show up in the world and the The business enterprise that we're playing with here is called and now what now that we know this and now what and so beautiful alignment between David's work with the technology participation facilitation processes and And's work in in trauma and healing and psychology and mine in dancing around systems and zooming in and zooming out being able to See them from different perspectives And so after about a year of really deep conversations with Andrew in lockdown And the reason I'm here is that I joined and from Australia watching the collapse that was happening there and so how do we now align our gifts in ways that make a difference and David's framework from the technology participation is a lot around being and there's five elements being aware being comprehensive being affirmative being ethical and being courageous and Each of these forces us to look into the abyss and actually say Where are we at when we face the potential? finitude of myself and the potential finitude of humanity and Now what how do I show up? So that's the stuff we've been playing with in the last few months and it's not as doom and gloomy as it might seem but actually Ends up coming out the other side as how do we share comprehensive compassion? How do we regenerate what we can? How do we bring human stewardship to landscape and to community? All of the elements that I think are very OGM in this space We just take a different starting point of facing reality and then living the questions So nice to see you all here. Thanks. Oh lovely. Thank you. And don't don't feel guilty about dropping and dropping out It's we're all here when we're here and we're all here at the right time It's sort of like open space like whoever shows up was meant to show up And I love that and Angel is a new friend. So Hear me. Yeah, I hear you and you know the problem was I had the mute on my computer and had forgotten about it. So that oh Yeah, that's okay. Well, uh, thank you for welcoming into the space everybody I have I've been listening to your meeting and I'm just so impressed. I mean, I Have I I listened to two meetings and I felt like I got an Oxford education so it's just Thank you so much for the work you do and and for just showing up to these conversations You I've only I've only seen two of them and I'm already I feel connected to you. I I'm a healing centered educator. So there's some connections with what Neil just said and Sister where she says to do this I do a lot of work around diversity equity inclusion from a healing centered perspective I just finished my doctor that Columbia a teachers college and curriculum and design I'm also a contemplative scientist. So I'm not just studying the impact of contemplative practice and meditation But actually using contemplative practice and meditation to conduct research. So And I'm an entrepreneur as well So I'm just excited to to be a support whenever I can make it and to be part of this community I'll put I'll put the link to my website in the Yeah, thank you Jill. I'll put my website in the in the chat so you can kind of get to know me a little better But I'm right there in terms of thinking about collective trauma collective healing and and really curious about Intergenerational healing in particular. So excited to be a thought partner and thank you for welcoming me Awesome until thank you. Thank you very much Very fun, let's go Kevin and Vincent Doug Can I just add one quick thing to to Angel love love the fact that you you mentioned the contemplative practice and the contemplative space Because that capacity to go to the still point beyond the analysis Is critical to tap into the embodied intuitive knowing Beyond the knowledge and that's where the wisdom is coming through. It's the it's the conduit For us. It's the conduit that is so true that we now can stand up with the courage of our convictions because How can you argue with this because you're feeling it too? So I love it. Thanks, mate. Yeah, thank you Awesome Mr. Jones. Yeah, hi In our community equity fund I mentioned We've got our first public presentation of it at a Canadian faith-based economy thing Monday With the slides will be done Friday, etc. I'm doing a Clubhouse good pitch tomorrow at 7 o'clock. It should be kind of fun If you guys are on clubhouse, I've stumbled into the blockchain this Eastern Seven Eastern. Yeah. Yeah And I stumbled in the blockchain one. There was a indigenous friend is concerned because a lot of Sovereign indigenous nations are being approached by big folks in the Digital currency blockchain thing that want to sovereign economy and they're afraid of the kind of deals these big-wish folks want to do With somebody with sovereign territory. And so we've got P engage, but we got somebody who's building a Blockchain for food security for the Choctaw in Oklahoma and somebody's built it for a land registry for Colombian tribe To keep them safe from, you know, extractive industries and then locally. There's a global Infrastructure play called resource that's on the cello platform that seems the team is actually based here and they were trying to Get me to introduce them to the local merchants association And I said you guys are ready to talk to blockchain geeks You're not ready to talk to Main Street merchant, you know And so I'm working with them on on that and some other people are coming in to help them But they're getting a bunch of money in so it's like I really know what the blockchain is, but I'm around it all of a sudden And I'm you know, and and there's local economy stuff I think it could be helpful with and that I think could be pretty interesting. So anyway, it's It's you know, I'm real comfortable in new areas where I don't know what's going on And it's new and I bring something that other people don't have so it's a it's a familiar level of confusion that that I like Thank you. Thank you so much Let's go Vincent Doug Lauren Hi everyone The last week has been quite Rich in conversation. I've spent a lot of time in different Clubhouse rooms and also in different discord rooms part of me is like Exploding to kind of like right and continue those conversations and Part of me just wants to like stop talking and just actually do things because I've started to kind of see like the same rooms pop up and talk about the same things and I'm feeling more like it's like a Cafe and less like people actually having the tools to be able to do coordinated action One quote though that really resonated with me this week is That I came across from Dinella Meadows There's one leverage point that is even higher than changing a paradigm That is to keep oneself unattached in the arena of paradigms to stay flexible to realize that no paradigm is true That everyone including the one that sweetly shapes your own worldview is a tremendously limited Understanding of an immense and amazing universe that is far beyond human comprehension It is to get at a gut level the paradigm that there are paradigms and to see that as itself a paradigm and to regard that full Realization is devastatingly funny That's sweet So yeah, I've been also feeling like existing in different paradigms and and reading that Actually helped me a lot try to kind of come to terms with it and not try to like Figure out which one was the the real paradigm Like for example like listening to a lot of thinkers that are like super fervent that we need to create a completely new Parallel economic system and then other people who want to create like you know more incremental stakeholder capitalism and how do those two fit together So those have been my thoughts this week. Thanks everyone That's awesome Vincent. Thank you Love that just so much in there Doug Julian Bentley Well, I find myself Not knowing how I want to start talking this morning the world is pretty complicated and Our brains probably feel a little bit like scrambled eggs I'm gonna focus in on two things one is I work with a group of economists who have a fair amount of political power and What's striking to me is how they are desperately holding on to the growth model With a view that if things go right for them assets will not have to be re-evaluated But I think it's just the pie in the sky just can't happen so the Part of well, it's been a fascinating dialogue and I'm beginning to make inroads into this group Which actually comes down to around 300 people To have a dialogue about what are the actual facts about what we can do so for example the idea that we can the gates new model in his book that we can Kind of start serious efforts five years from now and be done by 2035 or 2050 While meanwhile the world is falling apart around us and they're not paying any attention So that's you can imagine all the group dynamics it's fun for me because I'm respected and accepted in the group at the highest level and And but at the same time to feel powerless It's pretty amazing The other thing that That I'm working on is a book called garden world politics and the premise is That it's easier to solve several problems at the same time rather than one at a time because if you do one at a time They're going to end up conflicting with each other and you don't want to go down that path So I've picked the two key human needs Or actually the three One is for food one is for habitat and the third is for culture to hold it together And that's what needs to be worked on the I'm so struck by how many photographs on the internet of agricultural projects Show lots of plants, but no people The people are moved out In order to make room for agribusiness And we just don't want to go down that path. It's much easier to do something like the italian hilltowns Where you have a small population fairly concentrated And an attractive pretty place and you're going to walk in minutes to the land that's feeding and Either to this forest or to work that land So I'm having a lot of fun working on this book. It leads me to all sorts of stuff for example The greeks have the view that Friendship is the basis for politics I thought that was an amazing idea and that's people who move out of the family into relationships across family Boundaries and begin to relate to each other the development interest which becomes the basis of politics And it goes okay. I first I have to learn to reflect on myself Then like socrates to how to be in dialogue with another person and then in the Paulus the town When a series of conversations are in the same place Thinking like that. I find it amazingly useful and there's a lot of and we don't read it very much I mean for example the path from Marx to Nietzsche Who who here can be articulate about what that path was like and what it means for us Anyway, that's the kind of stuff I'm spending my time on It's challenging maybe to put it strategically at a time when most Scenarios Of high prop of high probability of failure It's important to look for scenarios of low probability that could possibly work And so I'm betting on garden world. It gives me something to do I'm before passing it to class real quick. I just wanted to insert I'm fascinated with the transition into industrial society and Uh, there's a I just put a link to the charter of the forest I don't know if anybody's heard of it, but the magna carta has a parallel document called the charter of the forest Uh, which basically gives people this is when enclosure movements are starting people are being moved off the land Land is being turned over to sheep grazing and people used to live like raindrops on the land Uh, and they used to that's how they fed themselves And so what the charter of the forest does is it includes a whole bunch of easements which have a special name But they're basically certain specific rights. So widows can graze their pigs in the king's forest Right Just widows not everybody you can you can't just go willy-nilly graze your pigs in there But that's a certain category of people are allowed to do this thing With land that has now been kind of roped off for the king to go hunting every now and then etc etc And so there's lots of lots of interesting ways that the south plays out. Sorry class go ahead Yeah, that took the first part of what you were talking about with the economists and by the way I You're working on some fascinating topics. It's really appreciate what you were saying In in other conversations It seems that we have reached a stage of collective cognitive dissonance where an entire population group Is rejecting reality, you know, there there are phases of adjusting to cognitive dissonance And reality diverges from What we wanted to be And we have maybe 30 percent or so in particular decision makers who absolutely reject the idea For example that we have to exit fossil fuels and you can see that in the discussions in texas That's basically an expression of cognitive dissonance It's going to get a whole lot worse because So far the conversation around agriculture and the food system has been strenuously avoided And once that comes into play the disruptions that are being called that will be necessary To shift into regenerative practices equal the disruptions in the energy sector So the idea that we can continue On this economic path is completely It's impossible So so how to then Guide a group that is that is screaming and kicking Into a different path. How do how do you How do you Communicate, you know the need for these significant changes in ways that doesn't lead to Collective collision here and and a lot of breakage. That's really I think is the challenge Yeah, and the fact that these policies affect so many humans in so many ways Maybe repercussions are just so gigantic Um, let's go julian bentley-john So, uh, kind of quick check in but I wanted to say Lauren until you put your hood down. You were so covered up. You look like a tusken raider So my check in this week is last weekend I managed to import the siggraph 2003 proceedings into nil 4j Which is an important step. I haven't done the other years yet because Siggraph basically changes their data model every year. So I have to come up with some kind of generalization Once this is done, though, it gives a Coordinated knowledge base for what siggraph is doing, which means pretty much all of the high end of computer graphics Let's see and then for what tug and class we're just talking about I wanted to bring up a professor at berkeley who was studying Farming practices in central america and one of the really interesting things that struck me was Who's talking to one village where they grew what agribusiness called weeds in between the rows of maize And the agribusiness people came in they wanted to take out the weeds and the people in the village said but then What will the donkeys eat? So they had without the so-called benefits of agribusiness achieved a balance in their local ecology And I'll try and dig up who this is because it was some years ago. I read this in the alumni magazine Okay, thanks julian Bentley tony ngrid Hey everybody, hopefully you can hear me. Okay. Yes using a different setup. Um, yes, you look more high tech than usual I'm in texas so Several many of our neighbors are without power many without water many with bursted pipes Somehow having enough heat in their house to still flood their house even though it's freezing Anyways, we've been really lucky. We have power and good water and relatives staying with us So that's that's where my mind is right now. Um, I do love hearing everything about the agriculture and stuff the the previous conversations and then I'm still very much focused on the uh group decision-making process So we're talking about, you know, how do we bring these people to understand the situation we're in and and move together as As a full community rather than just the separate coalitions often in opposing things So that's kind of what my evidence-based Um decision-making process Um is for so it's billy bot kind of mentioned it a few times uh that I'm hiring researchers and marketers to start making the Kind of like a snopes, but for much more complicated decisions than what this person said Um and more evidence-based and mathematical. So That's kind of what I'm working on and then looking for contract work to fund my OGME pursuits And I got a couple leads. So hopefully something like that. Oh, that's good. Do you want to do you want to post the link to the gully bot? In the chat. Yeah. Yeah, and I'll turn my video off But I am listening and appreciate everyone's participation in this Sweet. Thank you. And you reminded me that we sent an invite to To a zoom conversation about the united states documentary Yeah, which is which is very much about sort of how do we get back into conversations that bridges this cultural divide Which is a huge and important issue. So Yeah, very one ahead there Yes, I will repost it. Go ahead Neil. Are we doing matter most or are we doing zoom right now? We're doing matter most that call is a call with the flux with april's flux community plus ogm So we'll be in normal normal zoom normal zoom chat for that one. Cool. Yeah Thanks. I just wanted to say bentley go go well in texas and While you're there pay really deep attention to where your vulnerabilities are Right because don't just take it for granted that you're going to have good friends and good food and good water and good heating and everything else These storms are coming. These are the storms about grandchildren coming early and the heat storms and the cold storms are going to get worse And people are going to be lost and smart people like you on the ground are going to be critical to how do we actually Try and become more anti fragile rather than Go well, brother Thank you. John Ingrid George Hello So this is just a footnote. I think probably many of you heard about this And it's not a it's not something that would we would immediately say, uh, oh, yes, that's a solution No, it's more like oh, this is a little side door that's opening up and probably going to be misused But we should know about it and it's the the action of nevada to basically enable of the kind of public private Corporation, you know set up that created uh, disney world And their thinking is you know that they'd like to attract They'd like the teslas and the googles of the world to come in and not just Not just create jobs, but to create whole infrastructures You know places, you know, basically what we're talking about places to live um management of resources culture, etc, etc and and not have to deal with the sicket of state regulations so You know, I'd be interested in seeing what what google would come up with but I you know I don't think any of us would would just sign up. I think we'd say You know, all right, what are you going to do with that and and maybe The fact that that door is opening for a google means that that door could be open for a A different kind of entity The kind of entity that we would Come up with John there was a piece that flew by I think yesterday about Multiple billionaires and corporations trying to start new cities new communities new many nations. Yeah talking about Lots of discussion in the article about the technological wisdom of it. No discussion that I could learn about governance and democracy Right. I mean, there's there's a couple of uh You know, there's this strong libertarian group that like the sea stedders and the The people who basically say, let's let's get away from all government and all taxes by the way And you know, and then and we'll just run everything on pre-market and cooperative principles and it'll work just fine You know, sure go try it. Uh, don't Don't ask me for too much contribution the more interesting stuff. I mean actually the What happened in celebration in in florida was more complicated And the transition From the private to the public was was more complicated But it they did think about that they did think about wait a minute. Wait a minute. This is a public entity. This is a city And it's it's going to start out Very disnified And it's going to get less disnified And and how do we do that and um So they were that was the right question They don't have the solution yet, but That's a that's an area where, uh Maybe they need some ogm type help to come up with that solution We did some talking about pattern languages and developing an ogm pattern language Which kind of stalled those little ways for actually pretty interesting reasons because we were developing a special purpose wiki to to build that out but um, I'm I'm reminded of that because of the original pattern language, which was the portland pattern repository, but also A pattern language, which was all about how do we design cities? and and houses fit together in a way and A pattern language is an example of what I call design from trust So, uh, I've met a couple of architects in my life, uh, where we discovered that Their mo is when they meet a new client they hand them the book pattern language They say would you just please browse this if you like this we can laugh together. It's good Super super interesting and very different from conventional approaches So i'm i'm wondering how pattern languages can become a better ingrained part of policy planning development The kinds of things that you're talking about so that we avoid the smart city that looks like disney And is like an urban paradise designed for you've seen the the two follow-on pattern languages I'm assuming that jerry the one that the group the group process one That actually worked on and then the one that tom atley's Worked on, you know, so the wise democracy pattern language. I will put a link to pattern languages in the chat Yeah, totally. I'm a huge fan and I would love for us to curate one Together go ahead neil. I just wanted to link if I could what gill was saying of what john was saying We need whole systems design laboratories And whole system design has to include governance And it has to recognize current culture and it has to recognize coming collapse Because there's no point in designing the wrong things writer for the wrong situations like texas at the moment And there's no point in pretending that if we do the technology right then the governance will follow It doesn't so you've got to say how do we do this? Then we need to find the places where we can actually trial this and every country town every island in the world Is a potential Experimental site cities. I think are too big and too messy But every country town recognizes at least a level of mateship and interdependence And every island knows they've got physical limits and unless we start with that level of system consciousness Frankly, we're screwed Thank you. I'm in grid george ken So I've really been thinking a lot lately about what's going on with bitcoin because I you know my sort of economist mind Really discounted it when it first came out and when it went up and down and up and down and now It's getting real traction as an actual repository for banks and investors In a way that it hasn't before and I'm wondering what this means because I think it's got a lot more to do with something going on in the economy that we are not aware of probably I'm just trying to think about what is happening here because it just doesn't make sense in a lot of ways And who is the winner in this besides, you know Some guy who can mind this and also thinking about what an incredible energy sector this is and how destructive it is to the climate no one really talks about that and and Yeah, what kind of scheme is happening here? I'm just really interested in what this means because I think it's a huge shift now I think it's not going away Like we thought it was I mean even the What's the new one dogecoin or something that was a joke has now suddenly taken on a life as well so just something that very strange is happening and Not quite sure what to make of it. So I'd love to hear sort of what the group thinks about this Very it's very andy warhol lask. I met a guy long time ago At the push at sesley summers push conference in minneapolis And he gave a speech where he brought a squeegee onto the stage and he said This is a squeegee. I used to use an andy warhol's factory Where I was still screening And he said I would come in and I'm going to make up what the story was But I would come in in the morning at the end of the night shift and everybody would have just finished making t-shirts using this silk screen and this pattern and this squeegee and the t-shirts We would sell for 10 bucks and I would start producing basically on canvas same squeegee same artwork say whatever Paintings that we would sell for 5000 bucks or I'm making up the number I don't think they could make 5000 but it was like a way higher number And the whole thing was an exercise and as as warhol did a lot of his life like The value of culture attention the the complete discrepancy and actual value to perceived value all that kind of stuff and it's almost as if The the the It's almost as if the ridiculous coins are playing with our perceptions of value, which the dollar is also Right, it's like it's like we don't really recognize that the dollar is an act of faith You can't go exchange it for for an ounce of gold, you know 20 bucks won't get you an ounce of gold at the bank And haven't since nixon and a bunch of other strange things about money And then I think there's a lot of people who are pretty way smart on money in this call and money systems, but The whole thing is requires willing suspension of disbelief. Have you spilled bubble? Yeah, but I'm saying but now it's a paradigm shift though from we all know money is a made-up construct completely but now it's shifting into Something completely different with bitcoin I think the big a big game chain go ahead a big game changer was the Ellen musk putting 1.5 billion dollars into bitcoin I mean, I just made a fortune on on completely unexpected amount of money on on cryptocurrencies It was it just exploded The reason why in my mind Ellen musk did this and and why bitcoin is running is because the united states has abused its currency control to such a point across across the planet that There is an enormous pushback and The european union Russia china Have been working on undermining this control of facing sanctions Uh, uh, unilateral sanctions by the u.s on other countries. So now you have Uh, and there has been an attempt to Uh, to put the the euro onto a blockchain for example, so to use To use these control mechanisms to to uh to be able to track money make money transparent because there is so much Uh bad stuff happening in in Money being extracted from third world countries that ends up in london and so on So there is a this is a reflection of a much deeper power shift that is currently underway and At the losing end is going to be the u.s dollar or the control of the united states to To control the global currencies. It is in my mind And to add to add two interesting things to the mix There's this thing called modern monetary theory, which is eating everybody every economist's brain, which I do not comprehend But it basically says hey the u.s prints the world's reserve currency So we can sort of just print it willy-nilly forever and invent money and not worry about that and i'm like This just sounds like a disaster brewing, you know as As teleb says the turkey thinks every day is great until like the last day when the turkey doesn't have a great day And then same same with bitcoin jerry. Yeah Um, well bitcoin is take a little time take a little time to look into modern monetary theory It sounds crazy, but there's some real provocative thinking that it's worth looking at. I think there is I haven't found an angle in I'd love I'd love for anybody to offer me a handle on it that doesn't make me bounce Okay, I'll send you I'll send you some I'll try to dig up some links on that The author of the main book on modern modern monetary theory is a senior advisor to the chairman of the senate banking committee So I totally get that and she's like there's a whole bunch of famous people Who've bought who've liked bought this and i'm not buying somehow Um, and then the second thing I wanted to put in was zero marginal cost economy So the idea that there is a whole bunch of stuff we can now get for free Like I don't pay google anything for google suites and google maps and a whole bunch of things that actually make my life My life better now is the whole if you're not paying for the product You are the product sort of conversation also But as things start to go to no marginal cost to deliver We start we start stepping out of an economy where Money matters as much and there's a possibility here of stepping into Very sustainable very interesting worlds where we get fed where we have housing And the exchange of money for value is different Categorically different and I don't I don't know enough to paint that picture But I think that 100 years from now that may look really plausible And today that may look like a really far-fetched thing But we're all so obsessed about money and is bitcoin money like my mom passed away recently But I could not convince her that people were paying real us dollars for bitcoin and therefore it had value of some sort She was like no don't buy it. It doesn't exist Anybody else want to jump in yeah jump This is I won't go into it because it's too long a subject But and Doug can probably do this better than I can because of his inet But it isn't just oh we can borrow anything and it doesn't matter I mean there actually are some numbers that they use they you know And it isn't it isn't the total debt it the total debt in relation to gmp is a real Parameter, but the other the other ones are The pre-inflation indicators You know and the ripple effects in different credit markets So it's not a completely made up thing and actually i'm sorry about the sirens going by here. That's okay It's not a completely made up thing and actually I have more faith in Modern monetary theory than I do in bitcoin, but that could be and it has something to do with the the shared ledger if you will Which is you know what a blockchain is the shared ledger of indicators about whether it's in trouble Because the indicators that say a bit kind of talk, you know are not shared They're they're all private. So, you know, we'll just wake up one morning and they'll be back It'll be really interesting to run a poll where we put a list of things like Bitcoin MMT and so forth and say, okay, like rank these and the order in which you have confidence in them That'd be right Well, it's got to be a temporary hedge for where to put your Currency because it can't it can't go on because the other currencies aren't out of They're not done yet. The u.s. Dollar is not done yet. It will come back, but it's very interesting to see this shift It's all funky and gil just one other question. Go ahead. Just watch out for the I mean I think the zero margin stuff And the guy who came out with that book. I'm blocking on his name right now. I mean, it's it's a very good thought experiment It's very good to to think about that to point that out As you point out, it's not actually it's not actually zero cost It's not actually zero margin and the little bit of cost Is real and needs to be figured in and also there are some irreducibles. I mean this whole deep materialization thing pushes digital goods to zero margin and that leaves the the atoms Like the food and the truck bringing the guys the bringing the food to your house and the house itself I mean, there's these certain irreducible Yeah, difficult things that are left and um, you know, you have to be sensitive to Where are the limits of the metaphor? That's all Are those irreducible things like real things? Yeah, I thought so Pete and gil I'm I'm I'm interested I guess or or something. I I have Some knowledge and thinking about bitcoin that I'd like to share in a in a longer Conversation in good. I love your viewpoint And I would be interested in having kind of like a q&a session an hour some sometime maybe next week or something like that So I'll set that up and and get it on the on the mailing list I'm also I've got a explainer like explain Bitcoin to me like I was seven years old. I've got a Right up like that. I just started so Incidentally, so I'm going to share that In the chat here, too I'm just Reminiscing on the bitcoin mining server you brought to our party long ago Um, it's like, oh, okay. Anybody can go do this. This is cool Um, gil go ahead. Yeah, pete. Thanks for those last two things. I appreciate that. Um, I'd love to have as many discussions about this I've always tried really hard to distinguish between blockchain technology and bitcoin You know artifacts of of wealth transfer I think people get confused about the two of them. They're very different In my mind klaus congratulations on making a lot of money on that You only were able to do that because other people came in and bought bitcoin at a very high price assuming It's going to keep going higher forever So, you know, there's a Ponzi aspect to this thing There's the other side As we move to zero marginal cost and I think telecom is one great example of that Remember when you, you know, you would call you would call your relatives when you had flown to their city because you didn't want to incur the toll charges on the telephone and that's now, you know The friction has gone real stuff is very different um, but to the question of Money and the dollar and the collapse and all that, you know What john said about the relationship of debt with gdp is critically important Dalia talks about this a lot about the relationship of money to the rise of actual productivity in society And I would suggest people take a look at peter zehan. I put his name I think in the in the chat In the zoom chat started to develop on the other side who's a geopolitical strategist, uh, who sees A much rosier future for the united states compared to the rest of the world given Land resources demographics and other issues that we don't usually pay a lot of attention But it's very it's provocative and challenging very differently the way a lot of us have been talking about the future that we're facing He sees a strong u.s. Not a collapse in us. In fact sees collapsing china Within the next generation. So make it that what you will be taking a look. There's a bunch of videos out there Interesting. Thanks gil. Um, I just want to take the beginning of what you said where I convinced myself some years ago that um investors Speculators do not want stability. They do not want a nice stable economy They must have volatility and they'll do anything they can to provoke volatility So the global financial crisis in 2008 is fabulous Because somebody invents an instrument too opaque too obscure to figure out A few people jump into it then everybody jumps into it and then if you're not invested in you know In these in these derivatives You're going to be fired from your position so they get the world's money to get poured into this thing and then Fluy and the first people off the off the merry-go-round Profit handsomely they do really well the key is to get off this off the thing before it busts So I don't think the whole bunch of people are investing in bitcoin because I think it's going to go up forever Or dogecoin or whatever. I think they're catching emotion And I think this is all a lesson for us on you know the madness of crowds The you know emotional swings and how that translates into Weird temporary shifts in value that had little to nothing to do with actual value created on the ground for humans Yeah, it's not just the madness of crowds. It's the manipulation of crowds as you're saying that too totally Yeah, and so you know look at game stop And as we and as we consider, you know, the the disagreeing marginal costs look at what is it 50 trillion dollars of of wealth of wealth movement over the last year From the most of us to the few of us Huge tap of the ships And that's part of the story too because in that case money translates to power. Yeah. Yeah George Ken Lauren Hi, um, yeah, I think the bitcoin thing is more about psychology than about economics Which is arguably a branch of psychology Anyway I thought I was getting some slack from angry from Great one liner Yeah, we like it. Thank you. Um Anyway, uh Speaking of psychology. I am a big, um Fire aim ready guy um and uh, I So I I've been working as I mentioned before this thing called the mind skills playbook, which is a Book or in some form. It's not going to be a book actually. It's going to be more a live web thing. Um to explicate Mental effectiveness methods in thinking feeling imagination memory and and and doing not just thought Not just thinking and certainly not just cognitive But so there's going to be a lot of methods and I Recently found that the methods can be templated so that You know youngsters can who are learning to do this stuff Anywhere from kindergarten through 80 can Um Call up a template quickly in Rome or whatever thought processor they're using Call up a template have a flexible outline From which a framework from which to work In a flexible way not a Not a computer algorithm But so anyway, I I said what the hell and I can instead of working on I'm just going to put it up there So I put it up last week. It's it's a mess. It's terrible Uh, and it'll get better you know, um, it's embarrassingly um It's embarrassingly disorganized And I'm going to put a link to it, but I warn you Strap in and put your helmet on and your Your goggles on Because it's a mess But I believe in dumping the mess down and then okay We'll figure out a way to clean it up and organize it and then we'll figure out a way to make it pretty uh, so I'll put the uh The um The link to it in the chat It's in there The regular chat I've been to zoom chats are um, and I warn you but uh, and you you're also able to It's it's the it's first as far as the rome culture Knows so far. It's the first live rome book That's being put up there Um, there are all one or two rome books, but this is the first one That's being put up and actually being written in front of you So you can watch it being written Uh, which has got the rome community kind of Excited some people in the rome community pretty excited because they've actually seen somebody write a book and uh, and not only that the readers of the book No friction. No no joining anything. No fee. No nothing The readers of the book Can drop in paragraphs Well, you can you can say, you know, george, you uh, had this template for diagnostic problem solving we had this template for Handling an unwanted emotion and you left out something between step six and seven So we I put in 6a 6b You know and that kind of stuff. So it'll be a community effort And gradually get tuned up So I don't have to you know 101 How does how does rome handle contributions like that because there's github, desk fork and pole And then there was a there was a short-lived startup long ago called mixed ink That was all about collaborative writing of documents and what it did was it preserved the origin of each sentence Basically each chunk of text you could say oh Ingrid put this in on this date and it survived through all the draft and edits and whatever so that when you saw the final document You could see who it contributed precisely There are options like you can Give editing like i'm a i'm part of another collaborative group on rome where they had to put in my Uh email so I can go in there now make contributions and edit anything whatsoever Including other people's contributions. And so it's free form open all open mine is Uh anybody can get to it I don't have to approve you Anybody can make it a an edit and or that is anybody can can Create a block which is basically a paragraph Uh, and you can edit your own block uh and then I can zap your block or edit your block as I wish um So I have overall privileges, but You know, so I restricted it and you can you there are a variety of Ways to set it up and part of rome is I mean they they think it's a note taking tool, but it's so far from that it's a thought processor and It is being deliberately designed to be a collaborative thought processor So that all of us can get on there With a given issue all think about it and build the document or build the not the document. It's actually, you know, it's a It's a matrix of thought. It's not a matrix. It's a web of thought three-dimensional web of thought um I mean someday I can I can get on and do a demonstration of uh, I think we're getting overdue for a set kind of a Share the tools kind of conversation where we could start with rome and dig through and then go to neighboring tools and see what's up Because uh, yeah, I think and I actually demonstrated to cherry Rome operating inside of the brain in the notes field basically an embed of rome Which is which is really insane wild mind blowing kind of thing and uh but I think that If you're not into thought processors Whatever I don't think it matters what the thought processor is as long as it basically conforms to your style Uh, Jerry likes going in with visual first. I like going in with text first It there's no right or wrong Uh, it's just what fits our brain and our preferences and all that best But if you are not using a thought processor now uh You you are in for a 20 to 30 IQ point Uh increase As crazy as that sounds Uh Anybody with the thought processors But the thought processors 20 IQ points higher. I want the 20 eq point booster that That it can be used for that. It's not really just a thought processor You can you can process emotions in it. You can process. That's kind of cool I was the same at joking me, but now I'm like what what no you could really you can any mental event Yeah, can be represented conceptually or by pictures or by some representation And and put in a thought processor. Let's be more general in rome Can put it be put in a thought processor and then you can say ah a and m What's the connection? This seems to there's a connection between a and m. What's the connection? What's the relationship? How can I change that? bringing creativity into it and It's interesting Mind blown cool cool. Thank you. Um angel. I put a link to your webinar for this afternoon in the chat I don't know if you want to put in a word about it or anything like that Yeah, it's just uh, it's in the it's in the matter most chat not the zoom chat. Sorry Um, and I just thank you so much. Yeah Um, do you want to say say anything about it? Just uh, yeah. Yeah. I'm the I'm the sorry my internet bit So I'm the director of the fellowship program at the garrison institute and We have 11 wonderful fellows and part of that process We invite distinguished scholars in the field to have conversations with us We have our second forum today at 3 p.m. Eastern time with dr Dan seagull who's an expert in interpersonal neurobiology very interesting conception around um What the mind is and and and and now that relates to mental health um, and I think it'll um, it'll interest you the topic is Dispelling the lie of a separate self And the his notion of intra connection not inter but intra connection Uh, it's very interesting. So it'll be a really relaxed conversation and I'd love to have uh, you There I also will reserve seats for you for future forum, uh events that may be a little more exclusive We'll be having one each month with exceptional and creative thinkers So, uh, I'll be looking out for your for this community moving forward in terms of those events and and I'll invite you there Sweet. Thank you. Really appreciate it Um, here's our cue now. Ken Lauren Eric Angel will I I've got a call at that time today. Will that be recorded so that we can have access to it later? Yeah, it will you should register Okay, thank you Oh, man Come in late in the order here is so much that's gone forth before me. I'm not quite sure where to begin Um, I read an interesting article in the washington post this week about extremist thinking and pandemics and how they've gone hand to hand throughout history and um, it really Um, it wasn't, you know, a hugely in-depth article But it it gave me a real sense that I think biden is focused in the right area His number one priority is getting the pandemic under control and that once that's under control A lot of the extremist thinking is going to tank. So Because I was really like man things are just looking grim and um, so that that sort of lifted me up a little bit I'm also pretty excited that, you know, Roughly two hours from now nasa starts this coverage of the mars landing. I don't know if ab's Up on that but you can go to youtube nasa channel on youtube will have full coverage. So that's, you know I've been locked up in the house for a long time. So at least I get to explore mars, you know, so My ankle is about 95 percent better. I sprayed it a couple weeks ago. Um What else? I've been listening to the book cast the origins of our discontents And I have to say, you know, I've done A few deep dives in my life around Races race and racism us and this book is just It's filling me with a lot of sorrow I just listened to the section yesterday on germany and In the u.s. They were they were in norwans. They wanted to take down a statue of roberty lee and A An anonymous donor came forth and said I will cover the costs as long as I can remain anonymous and they floated the idea and there was huge pushback People got really like you take this statue down. There's gonna be real problems. They put bids out No contractor would take the bit. No white contractor would take the bit One who did his fight in one of the trucks is firebomb. So he withdrew it ended up being a A black owned firm that that came in and did it and she compared that with germany where You know the the generals of the civil war from the confederacy lived out their lives in You know, what's his name? Jefferson davis got a presidential library and In germany, there are no monuments to any of the nazis Um William westmoreland jr. I think came forth and said, you know ramo was a great general, but there are no Memorials to ramo. There's no statues of ramo anywhere and rather than memorialized hit where they paved over his bunker Um, they decided to put up memorials to the people who are terrorized who were Excuse me who are the victims of the nazi persecution? Uh, we're in america, you know, we celebrate the the uh the oppressors um and There was something about this particular chapter that just hit home that Just how deep the racism is particularly in the south and the the electoral map really Kind of is very much the same today as it was During the civil war. There's just such a strong current of racism that It really makes me wonder, you know, can this be healed and and how to heal it? How to how to shift people out of this D-patriot that comes from sand talks perspective from the emu character of i'm better than you are and you're not you don't deserve, right? so, um I don't have any answers to that. I'm just kind of sitting with that of you know, it's it's winning heavily on me this week This this book i've been enjoying this book for a while. It's a pretty thick book But this particular piece just really hit home and then uh Going back to what jerry led with I am definitely I don't wake up in the morning filled with anxiety of what am I going to find out when I turn on my computer and look at the The news today, so i'm just noticing a huge amount of gratitude for that that Something in me has relaxed a little bit. Um and is feeling a lot more hopeful and um, you know There's such a low bar for biden to to come in and improve and yet I think he's doing fantastically well I love the story that you know at the town hall meeting Um a woman was saying she had this problem. He said I can't solve that but I tell you what If you hang out afterwards you and I can talk and toss ideas around it's like oh my god humanity. I was just My heart was swelled up. There's humanity back in the white house. So Um, so I'm balancing all these things. You know, I'm a little schizophrenic But uh, that's what's going on for me this week and dogs. Yes dogs. There's dogs back in the white house The dogs who actually aren't biting their owner either. So Thank you. Ken. That was marvelous. Um, lauren eric craig Hey, I just want to make an announcement that um At kiko lab which meets on monday nights. It's 3 p.m. At eastern time We are going to be um Um Moving forward on plans for a little grant writing flotilla and so anyone who's interested in Raising money or championing a cause or has An entity to some kind of business entity that they would like to throw in the mix We're going to try to maximize um the The money that we can get as a community by being flexible about what how we organize stuff and matching ideas to um organizations because each grant is very specific About what they what they need and you have to have an organization in this particular place and you have to Meet all these uh qualifications. So we're trying to maximize the amount of um grants that we could even qualify for so if anyone is interested in any way and um being a part of that by either like Reading um or writing or who hasn't an entity or Who has project management skills or? Um can help us with a calendar anything like that. I I would love to talk to you Awesome. Thank you Lauren. Um, that sounds like a lot of fun. Great. Uh, great thing. Did you put a link to it in the chat? In the uh Mattermost chat. Yeah The matter most chat the channel named calls is where much of our chat has been not all of it a bunch of it's still in the zoom uh Thank you. Eric craig pete gill Yeah, hey, um First of all, I would like to Talk a bit about my information management hell. I went through I have a I have a problem with my eyes For me the bright light of a normal computer screen is difficult. So I bought Uh an obscure tablet called the high sense q5 And it's like uh, it's like e-ing, but it's actually an rlcd, which is an lcd screen So it's has a better refresh rate But it's made in china So that means no google play store So I have to work through Side loading apps it's called. So you have to try to find other app stores that install things and I was trying to okay. What kind of app can work for me and then I was comparing Dynalist work flowy mindmeister and roam research at the same time trying to bring all my Information that I currently have From one system into the other And like one system just seems to work, but then I bump into this weird kind of bug in the In in the tablet that I have no idea what it has to do with like Just only today I Finally finished and I I decided okay. I'm gonna use and you never guess which one. I'm gonna use mindmeister The 400 year old app But it's actually working quite well for me because yeah, there's different reasons for it, but it's like Oh damn such a hard thing on my brain and it makes me overwhelmed for a couple of weeks now like it's first of all, I saw this This tablet is never gonna work. I brought it into the computer They said you can't you can't install anything on it But then I find a way to do it just by asking someone and Wow, it's like a But it so much depends on it if I can manage my information Then I can continue the work that I'm doing if I can't then it's a problem and if I'm in front of the screen for a couple of hours Just my eyes start to hurt. So it's like Wow, what a what a search And then um The other part is about how to get unstuck. I sent the screenshot. It's actually just a time I would like to do calls My idea was a Wednesday's five o'clock see Central European time and the screenshot that I shared is just so you can see what that means in your time zone um and It's yeah, I talked about it a few weeks ago that I wanted to calls where we Talk like we have like small groups where we talk about where you are with your projects and stuff Where you get stuck could be emotionally could be practically projects or information management skills or whatever And to advance stuff, uh, I might work together with uh, lauren But that was just an idea I had on Monday. So that's not I think concrete yet But I'd like to do weekly calls on that just to help people advance Where do I get stuck when you post us to the rgm google group so that more people can see them the google group the the Now before with the google the forum would be great too The google group is probably the thing that has the broadest reach right now because Not everybody's in in uh discourse and okay Yeah, but that that will give you the most uh, you know reach across the ojam community Did we ever think about a facebook group by the way? um, I think I I think I created a facebook group and we've never gone there There's also a linkedin group that I created. We've never gone there So I think I think we have them, but I think our our tendency is to to avoid those those spaces Uh, it's a conversation we ought to have again, okay, cool so Cool, so is your information world less chaotic right now? Did you did you like to get your arms around? Today I felt like oh, I can let go I can kind of trust where I ended up it did some crazy moves Yeah, but it it seems to work now. Yeah, I love that and then Just you're you're narrating your story made me realize that if the brain were to melt and die and go away And if I weren't able to use my brain the way I've consistently used a single 23 years I would be hosed in a really bad way. It would be It would be a big disaster in my life and we'd have to accelerate the feature is brain project to actually like Make it make a platform or something something. Do they have a cross platform uh export? Or is it just we we we have an export of the data so that my data wouldn't die It's just that editing and adding stuff like if the tools suddenly were to vanish. I couldn't actually curate it Which it which would be a It was really through our wrench in my works. Wow Um, Craig Pete Gill Hello everyone, uh, thank you Jerry for inviting me here um, listen, I'm I'm enthralled. I'm honored. Pleased to be here. Um, I found a community of inspiring people Very much different to the community of friends that I have here. I I live in Thailand. I've been here for 20 years I'm originally from scotland Um, so I was introduced to ogm only a week ago. Um, I've been attending Or participating in friday meetings with the center for humane technology Which is based in san francisco many of you may know Um, and the reason I've been doing that is that my project over the last couple of years has been the building of a social media and messaging and video calling platform So the uh The social issues Which are inherent in that project and everything that I discuss with like-minded people on fridays has filled me with Renewed purpose Like all of us that have been around for a few years. We've been through many things in life, right? um And I retired from the stress of europe 20 years ago I created a new stress which lasted a couple of decades here in thailand And I started to relax again a couple of years ago, but then I discovered this New technology for a peer-to-peer connection between browsers It's called web RTC and I found it so fascinating Did I say I'm a software developer? That's what I've been doing since the mid 80s So a couple of years ago. I embarked on uh on developing a An app which which is online at comms.global and that has filled me with with interest and drive and a purpose for the last couple of years so living out here in thailand most of the the the people I get to socialize with are Retired expats not particularly Take most of them not particularly taking life very seriously anymore So I do lots of uh motorcycle riding and a bit of fishing and a lot of work Spend a lot of time with my family this community that I've just Been introduced to here is uh is so inspiring. I look forward very much to getting to know many of you As time goes by I'm sure that You will all be able to help me find the secret sauce that my project needs to differentiate itself from from all the others Awesome, Craig. Thank you. I'm glad you're here Um where bar to see is ultra cool. There's a whole bunch of platforms that have been you know using it harnessing it to do stuff comms.global isn't resolving for me. I'm getting a I'm not getting a website there. Is that the right uh htprs comms comms.global. I haven't like typed it in here I think the problem is if you do HTTP it doesn't actually resolve It should I just I just typed in comms.global and I got nothing Now I get a site can't be reached comms.global unexpectedly close the connection is what I get anybody else getting it okay? Maybe it's me. I get the same as jerry Okay There's the ps comms.global works fine. It just works fine. C-O-M-M-S One M. One M. Oh, sorry. Sorry about that. Totally boys blew it Um, cool. Thank you. That solves that problem Uh, let's go to pete and gill Um, I'm gonna do something crazy. I've got a couple topics I want to cover and I'm I'm gonna hit return on a On a message in the matter most chat what I'm going to cover Um Because I feel time pressure. I'm going to go breaths First and not very much depth and please feel free to ping me So, uh, one of the things I this this week on ogm. Um, some of us have been doing some background work on OGM as a structure structuring ogm. How would that work? and I one of the things I used to say was ogm is a verb and I've got a little essay and I I want to write I haven't yet called ogm as a fractal Which I'm excited about um In the matter most by the way If you go over to the public channels on the left and and look down at the bottom of the channel list you've got There's a link that says more. I think it's a link If you click that there's a bunch of channels That are in the matter most that you can join if if you're interested some of them are ogm Some of them are kiko labs. Some of them are wild and free Um, one of those is tools and technology and that's where I've been talking about things like Rome or obsidian or stroll um, uh, I realized recently that you could actually do multiplayer obsidian More or less. It's going to be a little bit clunky, but um with a shared folder um, so the the tech I I so I talk about this in that channel, but um I've been thinking of using next cloud as a web dev file server and then having more than one person Doing obsidian kind of like a wiki This is kind of an experimental thing Bill Anderson and some of one or two other folks we we play with tech So I don't think this is going to be a solution, but I think it's going to be almost a solution So I'm kind of interested in in playing with that um I come in and out of of this thing Publishing with Sphinx and markdown and git There's a there's a cool pattern which I I see in open source communities and I haven't seen Elsewhere because it doesn't make as much sense elsewhere, but If you have manual like content content that looks like a software manual, um, I was I was thinking about writing a guide to ogm for instance And it would work well as as kind of a book structure It turns out mark trexler with his climate web and site brain Has has used site brain which creates little micro sites out of the brain He's ganged those together into essentially books He's doing it a different way with the old site brain which uses pelican as a single site static site generator We're talking about leveling up. Um, and I'm also got some other projects that we worked on that I'm working on where instead of Pelican is a static site generator use Sphinx And Sphinx usually talks restructured text, but it turns out that it's also easy to do it with markdown It also turns out I was really surprised to find Sphinx just runs perfectly chef's kiss With docker. You don't actually have to install Sphinx to use it. So Um, a whole another set of things that I would love to write up and and talk to somebody about that Probably isn't interesting to most people, but it's super cool Um, and someday I'm going to have more more and more people writing with markdown and git. Um Uh, I wanted to flag a couple things in the world. Um, zaynep to facti, uh, wrote a really good essay on orality versus, uh, Oral kinds of communication as opposed to written kinds of communication And she one of the things she notes in there has a byproduct of the conversation is oral communication is sometimes written and written communication is sometimes spoken so Oral communication is kind of what you get on twitter even though it's written and written communication is kind of what you get as a news speaker is dictating words off the off of a teleprompter Reading the news to you. But anyway, there's um, uh, this is something I've been fascinated about that the subject I've been really excited about for like 20 or 30 years um Written culture is this weird thing that has has only lasted for a few hundreds of years and It's not the way people think it's not the way people act. It's not it's it's going to be this weird blip In history and I think we're going to get back to oral culture um Because that's the way humans work and brains work and stuff like that Maybe there's going to be a fork where we'll have oral culture and ai aided written culture She she covers some stuff because she thinks a lot about um Privilege and things like that Written conversation has a bunch of of stuff where It it's It's exclusive you actually have to learn how to do written culture to participate in written culture Whereas oral culture is just something that you're born with your your brain works that way. So There's some interesting stuff in there. I think too um I'm a little surprised it's didn't this group didn't come to a surprise and not surprised that we didn't come to the kerfuffle that australia is having with google and facebook and news um Google has has moved a piece on the chess board which startles the hack out of me startle the hack out of a lot of people It's like The long story short australia is is saying, okay, you guys got a you search engine Publishing kinds of things online publishers has to start paying news organizations for their news um And so google was threatening to cut off news facebook actually just did it like that It's like, okay. Well, if you're gonna say or else it's or else fine. No problem google's little move of a pawn was hey, let's just make a deal and pay fox for their news. It's like, oh my god What just happened? Thinking about it the next day after my blood pressure had gone back down to some kind of normal level It's like actually if I were google and I did that I I wouldn't be weirded out that it was fox that I moved that pawn first What I would be doing is I would have made some deal that fox probably Maybe isn't smart enough to see but in a couple years I can start manipulating fox because I've got a business relationship with them into being a force for neutrality or good instead of a force for evil upon the land so Whole interesting thing going on there. It's going to change a lot of stuff. However, this falls out um The last one I mentioned real quick We've mentioned growth model and I mentioned or that reminded me of a thing that I've been thinking about a little niggling thought I've had for for Couple months. I've got this crazy crazy hypothesis Amateur sociology thing that I think about feudal The feudal system If I look back over the past, I don't know a couple thousand years feudalism was this interesting thing That happened and it kind of took over the world and I think one of the ways it took over the world Was by literally out competing the rest of the social systems so literally feudal economies and feudalism got to the point where they were successful and Bastard enough to actually like go and stomp other other societies and it kind of goes on from feudalism to colonialism and and then And then you know capitalism and stuff like that. But anyway, I think we've literally Evolved humanity out of a bunch of other social systems and ways of interacting and we still live now the humans that survived live with this Lord of the manner and peasant structure In our heads we're like literally we're those the survivors of either the lords or the serfs one or the other Everybody else got wiped out the people who used to have like cool little, you know, communal Societies and stuff like that. It's like feudalism just ruled over that anyway, it occurred to me recently that If I'm a feudal lord the way that you won the ways that you won against other feudal societies Was essentially amassing enough serfs feeding themselves subsistence level on potatoes or whatever You you ended up wanting more and more and more serfs so just the mass of your feudal system versus the mass of the other guy's feudal system was a A survival mechanism and so I I wonder I have a wonder I have an inquiry now Did this growth model where we where we assume infinite growth is a wonderful thing that fits so well into capitalism Did we actually get that started when feudal lords said I have to have You know, five acts or hopefully 10x times as many cannon fodder serfs as the next guy, so And you missed the last item. Oh, that was the last item on your list. That is a masterful list. Thank you um and and Narratives like the one you just put forth are one of the reasons ogm exists partly because it's like, okay, how do I Pick up on your narrative. How do I go examine the different things that convinced you that those things might be might be happening? How do we share those and link into one another's contexts and to eric and mindmeister and Gil is trying the brain, but then not and then george is all done on roam and like How do we have that conversation and then layer things in because I I was sitting I was standing talking to a smart person about history a decade ago, I think and he was laying on a whole bunch of stuff about the mongols and stuff that I hadn't really heard that Didn't contradict my own opinions and histories on it But really like enhance them in different ways and then every now and then there'd be like this jarring point of oh, Shit, I don't I don't believe that But I just wanted to sit down and buy some beers and like go deep But then I wanted to record and memorialize and contextualize the conversation So that it would be available to other people Not because I think that we're right but because we're all part of this trying to you know part of this story of trying to Figure out. Why do we make this policy? Why do we do this thing over here? Why like why why why it's based on things like what you just said Pete? It's based on on our stories and then every now and then somebody wins like the neoliberal point of view wins Which is its own story of how we got here And therefore which kinds of principles ought to dominate? Neil go ahead Two things not every serfdom Actually exceeded its carrying capacity in japan they had very successful models for over 300 years And so it comes very much down to into governance But I agree with you that the self organizational pattern is around how do we Utilize this land in a way that benefits the commons Which brings us back to how do we link it with the real situation in australia at the moment? As you know, I'm from australia and I haven't had any news from australia for the last 24 hours But I have seen a lot of the the serfs very concerned about the lack and the loss of their businesses because they were totally tied to a monopoly in facebook But if you look a bit deeper you recognize that the reason that they paid off fox news is because Murdoch is the elite that owns the australian government And so paying off murdoch gets gets that out of the way and we just perceive a business as usual now murdoch owns the australian government because he had put so much money into it and he owns all the media and He pays off both sides And so the legislation that was passed appears to have been passed to Have a very broad definition of news so that it would funnel the information the Funds from any use of that news back into murdoch So here again is the feudal system working beautifully as exactly as it's been designed The government of the middle people and you can choose to pay them or not murdoch's laughing at the moment because he's getting money from one But the serfs are now about to revolt because they've lost facebook, which was their provider of free service Which was basically Taking news some of it in fact most of it from murdoch fake so Go figure. Good luck Amazing and these dynamics are crazy and just wait until trump starts trump tv as a way of trying to fund his way of keeping out of jail I mean, this is going to get crazier Yeah I'm reminded of princess bride. Everything should remind us of princess bride um Gil you are you are last and then we'll check out of the cult Yeah Big gratitude for everybody both the ones who've stayed and the ones who had to bail I I needed to bail 10 minutes ago for other things, but I wanted to be with you for a little bit longer Um, I've got a long list too. I'm not going to go through it off. There's not time to do that, but a few things. Um Start this um I really love the kind of conversation we have here and it's rare and delicious And I was I posted the other day my dissatisfactions on clubhouse Did I find it it seems to most to be a home from the knowledges? People are just like to talk with rooms for people listening to them Within hours of posting that I stumbled into a couple of rooms that were actually delicious and rich and interactive conversation So it's possible. It's not a technology limited issue But this place is a gem and I'm like, you know, ken what you said about the the difficulty of coming late In the queue because there's so much to respond to But let me just touch on a couple of things and give you a little bit of news of me Doug Doug's not here anymore I really love Doug's talking about garden world and friendships as the basis of politics And um, you know, I've heard people say lately I think someone said on this call that there's this tension between being in these conversations and getting my work done And I'm coming to understand that being in these conversations is a critical part of my work I'm getting my not just how it helps getting my work done to this part of the work of what I What I hear how it affects me what I contribute and the richness that we develop together so deep gratitude For that and jerry for the all the all the back end that you've been building for all these decades in supporting us. Thank you I was before the call. I was listening to um some old videos of russ a cough ken Thank you for the one you posted the 10 minute one and then then you two led me to another Um, we was talking about mechanistic versus systemic worldviews and um, I just got the first few minutes But he's basically saying if you look at the transition from the middle ages to the modern era In the middle of that is the renaissance, which is a period of of disorganization and reorganization it's And murder chains and other things but it's the mess between Somewhat ordered worldviews that persist for a long time and I would suggest that we're in that kind of period now And we don't know what it is and we don't know what next is but there's a richness and a big danger there and that's where we are And it had a pandemic and lots of big bottomed people lying around on couches all sorts of shit. Yeah Yeah Here we're doing something differently. We we seem to be eliminating people not just from agriculture and not just from commerce Uh, but even from conversation. So there was a hit something on youtube last night about a new ai that will Shoot 10 minutes of video of me. Have me say 300 words and then we'll be able to construct a me that speaks any written text So I don't have to ever talk to anybody again Or go anywhere ever again and every time I encounter this stuff I keep on wondering why like why do we want to eliminate us What you know, why is it us eliminating us and of course mark said things to say about this and the crisis of capitalism when you You know when you cut costs by eliminating people and then have people who have no ability to buy the stuff You're trying to make yourself to them. So a little bit of a structural problem there. So I wonder about that increasingly um in my own world a couple of things, um One is that I just joined the board of a energy storage company Which is a yay on the one hand that I'm finding that and there's more clients coming at natural logic for the first time in You know well over a year. So business is cranking up. Which is exciting. It's another yay And I find myself kind of indifferent because all that all that remunerative work is getting in the way of the development of the work that I really want to So it's it's annoying how that happens. It's it's a strange thing because you know when there's when when there's no Income coming in and I have all the time for developmental work that I want. I'm always looking over my shoulder at how to get the bills paid Because it's not all free at jerry I know The folks who have to lean on my house don't see the world the same way you do And but in the last week, I haven't touched the new projects at all It's on the headline for gills joining that storage company was a sustainability legend gill friend joins So we are braced with a legend in our presence here folks Their headline cannot mine should we start calling you legend gill friend? No, that reminds me of princess bride gerry. It does doesn't it? Yeah, like everything should Like everything should that's it. Um in in the midst of work with one of the we should all have a legendary friend Yeah Well, you can have an imaginary friend or a legendary either way you take it um Bringing this down to specifics one of the clients i'm working with i'm tasked to develop a kind of a white paper big big picture strategy That how do we finance climate crisis in in a region? How do we you know, how do we find the money to pay for the hundreds of billions of billions of dollars that we need to both reduce climate emissions And to deal with the adaptation of rising seas and rising temperatures and rising fires and so on and so forth And I presented the draft to the client team the other day um Saying here's the big picture view here the breakdowns here the systemic interconnections here the missing pieces in the current strategies They give us enormous new leverage And I was really intrigued because they said well, we really want to know how do we pay for this particular project? So And how did you choose that project that you do like? You know, did you do a strategic analysis where the biggest bank for the buck is no No, we just think this is it we think this is an interesting project So it's you know, I have a client who commissioned something systemic And seems to be in the process of rejecting it in the face in favor of something tactical So I'd like to talk about that more Um, and you know, and just sort of get the benefit of your thinking about that kind of dilemma I imagine that others of you have encountered that before But i'm right in the middle of that um um last but not least Multiple comments about multi authoring platforms Uh, I've got a couple of books that I want to do as multi author books Not by me. I want to do a multi offer and I want to write them in the open So people can watch them being constructed and interact with them being constructed So I welcome suggestions about platforms to do that not with markdown Or any clever stuff because this needs to be available to lay people who have no computer skill at all other than, you know Hitting a site and typing so um offline i'm looking for suggestions for that i've been looking for about Two years which appears to be a strangely underdeveloped field like it's not. Yeah. Yeah, this is not a fruitful field as far as I can tell so Well, I don't I don't think those are the same thing Yes, I'm fruitful. I don't know. I think I think it might be fruitful. I think collaborative writing is really fruitful I think that the tools and platforms to do so to to go from lots of people collaborating to a book out the other door At the door, I don't I don't see those yet It's a complex problem. Uh, it you you want to support people who Who don't want any fancy stuff like markdown and you want to support, you know highly formatted stuff and It's a complex problem. It's not an easy one gill. Um, the markdown Markdown uh path starts at completely plain text. You don't have to you don't have to use markdown fanciness um, so I would still advocate for um the Things we could get markdown thing if I called mark less He could you post that could you post that in the uh in the persistent chat pop this in chat the other one? um Start me off somewhere. Yeah, I will and and I'd love to help too. I that's it's a I really want to see that more Okay, so if you don't if you also give me a way to contact you in the chat that would be great I mean, I remember the old days of social text where the formatting was you know Astros at the beginning and end of a phrase and markdown is the same thing, but okay, then maybe we just do that But then I need the shared platform. So any any suggestion for you welcome and last last but not least With regarding the whole energy story and the business in texas and you know, some of you may have seen bill gates's new crisis book that just came out An extremely lightweight interview with him on 60 minutes on sunday night. Just like surprisingly lightweight just even for 60 minutes um and The short story there is that he's you know, he's tech guy Doesn't understand living systems of biology is favor of a big, uh, you know big geo engineering And fundamentally set keep saying over and over again that we need to invent new technologies to solve this problem So when we have a host of stuff You know at the edge and coming on to market rapidly right now plummeting price of solar and eb's and so forth And I find myself thinking listening to an earlier part of this conversation that you know that that Bill Gates on climate bill gates is to bill mckibben As in computer technology bill gates with the steve jobs That works smart, but yeah, but not hasn't really limited smart. Yeah Um, no, thank you gil. Uh neil then scott, then we're out of this call Just doing a quick weave across a couple of things What gil said and what eric asked what comes after postmodern metamodernism. What is metamodernism? Multi plural or pluralistic looking at multi perspectives What's going to cause you the problems with the funding is the whole systems design requirement Actually needs people with the complexity the depth and the understanding of the predicament and the systemic solutions What's going to cause you the difficulty in getting the funding most of the funding agencies are tied up with people Like bill gates, which don't have that level of thinking What's going to get you the problem with actually getting any funding from grants Including the ones lauren's going for will be the less conscious gatekeepers who think they're doing it Because their worldview tells them this is the answer and therefore we're screwed right We have to get whole systems design laboratories that actually can think at this higher level of complexity We need uh philanthropists that actually are conscious There must be some kids that have grown up in families that have given them 400 years of inherited white supremacist Wealth that they can now recognize. Oh shit. We're all fucked unless we change them change the narrative We're other people that are doing this work. And if that's not the source of funding for this group, we're dead And then deal you've got you've got rupert sitting in the background of all that Yeah, you got to go around rupert. That's why you pay him off and move on Oh man, um scott Well, as usual, not so heavy or deep for me. Um But the idea gill you were talking about you don't you want to keep it simple so it's accessible by the most people Okay, that means Maybe markdown is it's too challenging What i'm looking at that is i'm thinking In my perspective when I used to play games when I was little it was all the simple games Preach easy and blah blah blah, you know, you could learn them in five minutes You can play it but there's no replay value The euro games come along the rule sets a little deeper You have to learn a little bit but now you have a game that you actually want to play again and again And when i'm thinking about the interaction in this book I'm thinking click tap swipe Those are all computer interactions that everyone has now learned And because of that they're now able to do things and i'm wondering what is the modern minimal set? Is it actually markdown or something like that? Is there another level that's not a lot further? But it's just a little further that enables an enormously more robust way to now type a double bracket get a link Oh now everybody knows that okay, that wasn't that hard, but you do it, you know do it a thousand times It's just part of how you work So that was just the thought that came to mind is that maybe there's Instead of trying to automatically say I need to make this Absolutely accessible without learning anything new It's like what's the next Two three five things that you need to learn in order to open up this whole new world Thanks for that. I I've probably overstated the problem It's not that I need anybody to wander in and be able to participate I need you know 15 or 20 people to be able to learn a couple of tricks and do what they need to do to write Sweet um, we have run well over time. We are almost at the top of the hour I am very grateful for this group. Thank you for being here for everything you've put into our Our our little conversation here Until soon Bye everybody Somehow ending calls makes me feel peaceful It's like all of a sudden this calm of everyone leaving Yeah, I agree Well, you know, it's kind of like the end of a party Where there's still a Couple of or maybe there's one small conversation Yeah, but it's not the lights on yet. It's not where they start cleaning. It's it's in before that part Yes, exactly Right So Eric, I think that did make sense to you as you said you're talking about consolidating your ideas into fewer programs in a sense and And what I've noticed because I've tried to do the same thing and what I noticed Is that I actually When I flip from one to the next I just I kind of abandoned the old one And work in the new one And I leave some things behind but I find that the ideas are better in the Structure because I had to I had to make them fit a different model. I had to rebuild them using different tools I get that. Yeah. Yeah, it just made me find the holes in it And so instead of what I went on the opposite side of that I was also noticing that If I just stay in one program It keeps me boxed in Because I start to Work within the limits of the software Instead of realizing my idea can go beyond that, but I just can't draw a triangle So I don't use any triangles because there's no triangle tool. There's a circle tool and a square tool Yeah, it's also it's also weird how there's like certain habits if you keep on using a certain tool There's certain habits that get ingrained When I come back to a tool sometimes I use different methods of using the same tool because my thinking has changed Yeah, yeah for sure I definitely see that so While I was thinking Had been thinking about what is the perfect tool for this Now I'm realizing There isn't one it's like the paradigm thing that Vincent was saying there are lots of different paradigms There are lots of different tools. None of them is Perfect. They're all created and they all have something different to offer and I bump into the the parts where it doesn't do what I imagined it would do and then trying to find the solution for it and then And then grinding and grinding until I find maybe a solution It's like, oh, no, no, it's not possible. Oh, damn What I'm finding is if if I can take the idea from one platform to the next Then the idea is really way more important than the software Whereas before It was I have them. I have a mind map in my master. That's the thing And now the thing has become No, I have a framework It's an idea framework. It's it works in all of these different Software applications and that to me has become more valuable than this idea of Building it once Using a radiant mind map structure or using a spreadsheet or using a wiki or whatever I think if I can build it It's just a different way of describing. What am I making? I'm making up an idea set the framework. I'm not making a Mind map in my master. I'm expressing it that way But then I'm expressing it in a different way in a different software I have a question for Lauren, but she's working on the fridge there Pot pie Pot pie Yeah, it's like uh It's an American thing I think But what is it a pot pie? I just heard pot pie, but then you were before pot pie Ah, and what's the bad pot standing for? um But it's like um, you're using pie crossed and um A room made of chicken stock And then with vegetables and chicken in it ah nice I'm curious about that one. I just think a bit about Hense water. So that's like a Belgian dish, which is a fish dish. It's it's like a soup a very rich soup with fish, but really nice Okay Essential I sent you a link that'll get you started Okay, cool Each one of them is different, you know, it's it's a very personal thing like a stew, you know, it has its own All right, cool. It's own gonna look at flavor and And love ingredients and you know all that sort of thing, but it's uh The picture will give you a very good sense of Of what it is so So lauren the question that I had is Uh, when I do these calls for getting unstuck would you like to see it as a collaboration for kiko lab? Absolutely. Yes Cool. Yeah, for sure So, uh, I could I do it like a kiko lab facebook page Yeah, we never really use it because we're never on facebook, but I we do If you want to use it if you Go ahead Yeah, I could but just to make the event I guess then then it's really like a kiko lab event and then Uh, I don't know how many people uh, we will direct you because it's not like we have a communications empire But you know, if you want to do oh, no, it's just to share to be able to share it In any way that I can I'd be super happy But I think most people are on facebook though, right? Like they are not on there a lot maybe but most of our ogm groups kiko lab groups most of them are on facebook, I guess Yes, and if anyone is on facebook, it would be great to have a way of interacting with them. So that would be cool Yeah, so I don't know. Do you know the group that Jerry made or not? On facebook No Yeah, I'll ask anybody I guess I mean, I'm I'm I'm I always respond to facebook. I'm on there, but I don't like check things and follow facebook groups anymore. I just uh Oh, no, well, I I always have this like one or two running facebook groups at the same time and then That's the ones I focus on but the rest it's just whatever passes in my feed sometimes right um, okay, let's do that and um Um Yeah, so we're we're trying to get everything together kind of simultaneously, you know Vincent and um peter have been working on a calendar system So a lot of these things will be emerging simultaneously and so we're getting a bunch of interns I just found out we're getting two teams of interns to work on the grants thing so that And we're and we're hiring professionals. So it's going to be like a real operation But it's it's you it's charles because you're saying we are getting is that you and charles are getting or Is that like a bigger? Okay. Yeah, we're paying some um people to actually uh Some good people to help us and they have a professional grants database Which is with the real access to grants um, and so we're going to like Personalize the process and let everyone else is on their good advice Oh, really nice. Um And so if you're interested basically the concept is saying you're in europe But maybe you're you're some of your ideas could either like if I don't know if you don't Say if you needed our organizational structure, we have a non-profit in the united states You could use that and get access to the A grant and normally you wouldn't even be able to access whatsoever. That's a very nice way to thinking about it Yeah, I want to create a new one. I have one in belgium, but in holland. It's generally easier So I want to change the holland to do a non-profit there um So let me think i'm going to So could you make me an admin for the kiko lab facebook page, please? Ah, sure Just to have like a parking space for the event kind of thing and then I could still do a Another one in the system of Oh, but that's why don't you ask charles because he's kind of in charge of the social media And his kids are leaving um Him tonight and so he'll be freer than me until my husband's away now And they're on vacation and i'm sick So it's a bad yeah, that's a busy life Yeah, how many kids do you have again? I just have the twins. I only the twins. Okay Only only twins only in stereo I only live in stereo You don't seem like you have kids you already told me. Yeah, no, I don't um sherry I don't know who is recording now actually because the recording still I mean, it's not in the call. That's funny. That's keep keeps on going. I hope you available forever Whoever wants to care about my pot pie Yeah, just just to share all my secrets on there and People and like that one person that watches until the end after the call and says like what did that guy say? I Interested in our grant uh flotilla Yes, for sure Scott are you there? Yeah, I'm here. I I honestly don't even know really what that is So, um, you know, you're developing a project or idea if you want to um Get funding for grants to develop it further Uh, you could do it, uh with us using the process we're co-developing and um You know, we'll be like, you know, um giving feedback to each other on our writing and um, we're searching through database for relevant grants and so on and so forth I'm hungry. I'm hungry for dinner. We're having chicken pot pie. Okay. Okay. Can I have some fried rice? Yes, if you want to It's pie. Um Hello Why not chicken without pie You could you can eat what you want Hey Um, I I mean it's it's interesting but I at the moment I don't have any expenses And so there's really nothing that I would be I don't have any like oh well if I had X amount of dollars I could do this with it relative to this project. So opposites Yeah I have the opposite as you Scott I have like I have I have to find a grand that's able to pay me an amount of money that for me is like, wow Are we going to do that? But it's at the same time it seems like a normal amount of money for what I want to do Well see I and I'm not thinking about it as replacing an income Um, I don't know if that's your situation, but for me Yeah, that's just part of it. Oh, yeah, it's also paying developers and um and community managers, I think Like network builders community managers, uh And um and developers are like the two kind of roles that need to be paid first in what I want to do Um, and I know some maybe hooks, but yeah, it's still challenging Yeah, for me on the developer side, I can't think of any Well, it's the the reason that I wouldn't Know what to do with the developer yet is I I have always viewed a developer as the end So you you bring the developer on when you know what it is that you want It's like it's like finding a manufacturer when you don't have a working prototype You know, it it seems to me With what I'm doing there's no point in having a developer because I'm Part of my creation process is I develop it as much as I can and then see how that works which changes changes the framework and That's no way to build a bridge And to me a developer is someone who the ones that I've I've only worked with one in my life actually and this was within my work And I worked with him really really well better than anyone else in the company which he told me Because I told him this is exactly What I want this to do And then he went ahead and coded And everyone else said, you know, I'm kind of thinking about this workflow thing That would be really cool if this just was faster to use That's a broad statement, but that's kind of how people Approach and the same way Scott is because we're graphic designers and you can just hand it off like this is exactly what I want it to look like Yes, yeah, and and here's here's where I want this button to go to And that kind of thing and the developers look that because then they can just do their thing and what I've seen is that people sometimes mistake a developer for a project manager co-creator And it's it's really not and if you don't have your Like if I can't make an interactive wiki file Or a mock-up or a wireframe or something that does exactly what I want then To me, it's too early for a developer Because I don't know They're gonna they're gonna look at me and say, okay. I'm ready to go. What do you want? And the first thing you're gonna say is well, I'm not really sure yet And that's what I've noticed is that that's when the relationship between The vision and the developer kind of break down because the the visionary hasn't Gone through the steps of saying this is how it should function And this is how it should be organized and that kind of thing So that's why I think for me. I'm not ready for the developer because because I don't have that that Clear set of directions yet You know where okay, I've run into a technical limit I haven't run into a technical limit. I've run into a complexity limit So my complexity limit is for me to solve and once I solve that Then I can say here's Here's the specific requirements And now a developer can look at that and say, oh, okay. I know what this is. I know how long it's going to take me So that that's my own perspective on it And even now, you know, there are no code tools, you know, vincent is a master at no code tools Yeah And I would I would just even do it with that as a next step before you do the hard coding Irritable is really unique though. It's like I've never come across something like irritable It it's also got limitations that I don't like but maybe they could be circumvented I actually created an idea that might work where I make irritable into kind of a Something like the brainer. Yeah, I don't know. I'll first have tested um I'm going to reach out to vincent. I like that idea of the no code tools. I want to see what What he has available. You should do that. That's nice and um Yeah, there's plenty of Of it out there. He uses basically irritable and kumo and some other plugins He does he did learn to code a bit but To make his patchwork to come together, but it's Yeah, I finished my my google javascript training program I haven't ever used it, but you know, it was it's a start. Yeah, it was a couple months and so then I It helped me because I wrote I had classes in basic and Fortran and cobalt I mean like hard computer languages way back in in the late 80s But you know, then I used a scratch It's called mit scratch. It's designed for kids. It's kind of like a lego Plug and play. I made a video game That that is still up. It still works It's it's great, but it's you know, I I did one so um It's I I did I don't know I I did one thing so I I know How programming works But I've never actually learned enough here. I'll show you I'll see the link on it There's something called interaction designers and information architects which are not necessarily technical Job descriptions, but that's what I do Well, and Lauren has that same ability as a graphic designer, right? Yes, um, you know, it's that it's that ability to structure the information I'm gonna drop off almost because I feel I need my mind to rest. Okay But um, me too. Nice to yeah nice talking to you both Google and I made with my son to help teach the basic concepts of diabetes of Type 1 diabetes because when we were in the hospital Learning about it. That's basically what it was Okay, you've been diagnosed now. You're gonna stay in the hospital for a week and we're gonna teach you what this is and how you manage it and The idea that that he and I had my son and I had was you know, there's a lot of siblings Who are wondering what's going on with their? They're newly diagnosed sibling And if you could give them this video game and they could play it for half an hour They would understand the fundamentals of managing blood glucose Except they're just playing a game And that was the idea behind it. So It just look I'm looking at the Pi pot pie recipe both photo now And it looks a bit like a quiche, but then everything thrown in Yeah, it's not cheesy like a quiche Ah, that's nice though. It looks nice. And it's not eggy. It's not it doesn't have eggs and it doesn't have cheese Ah, I want to make it I love it. I will I want to do that next week. Yeah, that's uh, on my to-do list Okay, well, I'm gonna Okay, cool, I will keep you to that promise, but um I'm going to leave to look on this one and uh, nice to talk to all of you Bye Bye Bye. See you later