 This is Stink Tech, Hawaii. Community matters here. Bengal, we're back on a given Wednesday. Oh, it's Wednesday already. Yeah. The three o'clock block. That is the retired judge, Shackley Raffetto, chief judge of the Second Circuit Court in Maui for a long, long time, and now he's with us here today. Thank you for coming down, Shackley. My pleasure. You are so international. You have dedicated your retirement to so many important international things. You are having a fabulous time on this planet. And one of them is the Jessup International Law Moot Court Competition in China, no less. And through this, I would like to study with you international law in today's world. OK. Tell us about this. Well, it's an international program started in the name of Professor Jessup, who was a Harvard professor many years ago. He was apparently one of the drafters of the UN Charter. And this competition was founded in his name. It's truly international. About 90 countries participate every year. They have competition every year in each nation. Each nation then selects its top teams based upon the number of schools they have participating. In China, it's about six, because we had 49 teams from 49 different law schools compete this year. And then they all meet, they all have the same problem. And it's all in English. So that allows me to go there and participate. And then they have the final international competition in Washington, DC, about a month later, usually in late March or thereabouts. And it's a, I've served there as a volunteer judge and also in Russia. And the one in Washington though is really nice. They have a lot of international activities for the students. One night, for instance, they have a dance really for young people, but they all come in their native or traditional costumes. Oh, that must be something. Yeah, it's really something. And of course, these are all really smart, young law students from all over the world. And they make, they begin to make their networking relationships. And I mean, it's a really wonderful program. And I've been going and participating in the China rounds as a volunteer judge for, I think, about eight years now. This year was the 16th annual competition in China. And it was the largest one that we've had so far, 59 law schools. You know, there are about 500 law schools in China. And China has only had law schools since, I guess, the end of the Mao period. Yeah. Because they just bear it. That must be part of China's transition. Yes. It's dynamic right now. Yes. Well, lawyers change the society. Interesting that the student body, I would say, is about at least 70% female. Well, nobody can complain then. All smart, very smart. Yeah, and hard work and a good student. Well, let's unpack some of that. You know, why did Jessup do this in the first place? He wanted to have, I'm just putting some of it together, he wanted to have an international program. He wanted this international program to have competition and appellate argument. And international law. And international law. It's directed at international law. Yes, yeah. Every year, in fact, the person, Peter too, I think his name was, he wrote the problem this year. And then they write the problem and then it goes to a committee and they look and see whether it has the right number of issues and so on. And then it goes, the same problem, very long, complicated fact situation, raising at least four major international law issues. And everybody works on the same. But it is, it's an appellate format. They do a brief, like I read and graded 15, they call them memorials in international law, I graded those before I went. And then, but what you're grading at the competition is their oral argument. Sure. You don't necessarily have their brief. Sure. Well, there's so many things you could learn going through a program like that. It sounds like Jessup was interested in making those students in all the participating countries. And I guess there's a lot of countries aware of international law, making them a little more facile about international law, and therefore accepting it. Because as we spoke a little while ago, international law is just generally treated as it is what you make of it. It's hard to say there's any hard law there that everybody will abide by. Yeah, the only hard law is the treaty. Yes, yes. And then sometimes do not get confirmed. Right, and unlike the common law system, any decision by the international court is just persuasive. And so it's very interesting because you have people from all different legal traditions, civil law and common law, and they're all variations on those themes. So even if they come from a nation that is based on the civil law system, they still have cases and decisions. And so they're always addressing the issue of what's persuasive, and what isn't, and how do you read it, and what does it mean? And in some of the systems in some of these countries, they don't have a lot of opportunity to stand up and articulate a position to advance, to argue a legal position, am I right? Well, they don't have the adversary system. And I'm not an expert on the civil law system, so I can't say exactly what it means. But in international law, I know I've talked to people who are judges on the international courts, and I asked them, what do you do about case precedent? And there's no question that cases mean something, even though they're not binding in the way that we think about them. But even if you think about our system, no case is exactly the same, right? So you're always distinguishing it or reading it broadly or narrowly. It's a story. Yeah, and I understand that the legal training in China is mostly memorizing statutory law. And so to come to a competition where it's more oriented towards common law principles of reading a case and interpreting it and citing it as authority, and then, of course, they refer to international orbital decisions and treaties and statutes and so on as well, it's a lot of the same thing we do. Yeah, but you have different backgrounds. And the common denominator is this program. And I wonder what, Jessup, or for that matter, you would say about what you wanted to inculcate in the student body that participates. What do you want that law student to think of when he finishes the program? What do you want to give him? Well, I think one thing is we want the student to go away understanding what their role is in the process of justice. I mentioned I do an extra day of training with a couple of other lawyers for the teams that are the six best teams. We've developed a program of advocacy. And one of the things I tell them is you're an officer of the court and you're there to help the judge make the right decision. I know that from being a judge. We rely on the lawyers to help us make the right decision or the best decision we can under the circumstances. And so the students may not have heard that before. You're important. Your mindset should be that of a trusted law clerk. And it's not because they tend to have a kind of a mechanical approach. They stand up and say, well, issue one is going to take 22 minutes, blah, blah, blah, instead of saying this is a case of the faithless lawyer or something like that, which we do. And I've seen that phrase exactly used in our court system by a well-known lawyer here. And I don't remember what the case was about, but I remember that. Yes, right. It's very effective. He's trying to affect your thinking, yeah. Right, see, they don't know things like that. And so we try to talk to them about that after we've gone through the competition and observed and seen it. But I'll have to say, they try really hard. And so when you can offer these things to them, they just really absorb it. Why? Why do they try hard? Do they have to do some competition to get into the program? Or can any law student walk in the door? Well, they have to organize a team. And some of the teams don't even have a coach. They put it together themselves. And these problems are very complicated back situations. The people who write these really load them up. And so they have to figure out what the issues are. They're given a basic list of international resources that they can refer to. But they're huge on these international cases. How long is the text? I mean, how many pages is the problem? 20 pages? Single space. Yeah, I mean, they do that on purpose, right? Because that's the challenges sorting out. And I told them in the training, look, in real life, you're going to have to go figure out what the facts are. And they may not be what your client told you they are. And then you have to tell the story, which is the story and theme of the case, which to be most effective is an advocate. So I get the 20 pages. Well, let me go back and fix one issue. So do I have to take a test? Can I just walk in? If I make my team, can I come and participate? Do I have to do some stuff to get involved in the program? I think some schools actually give them credit for participation. Yeah, but I don't know of that process that happens at the individual schools, because I just see them as they come to the competition. Right, and you're a judge there in the competition. Yeah, I'm a volunteer judge. There's about probably 50 volunteer judges and about half of them. All over the world. Well, half of them, I would say, are from all over the world. The other half are Chinese, many of whom participated as students and are lawyers in China in various places. So one of the things I enjoy is I meet all these very interesting people. One fellow I met has got to know as a barrister in Hong Kong, an Australian. Did you know that you can go to Hong Kong as a foreigner and become a barrister? No. I don't want to write that down. Yeah, well, that's one of the really interesting aspects of going and serving. Well, got to get out. It's really wonderful that you do get out and the people in this program, at least who come from the US, get out and see what's going on, see those kids, see the way they think, see the way their thinking changes in the course of the program. I'll say some of them are really good, too. I don't speak English. Yes, they're articulate. So you give them 20 pages of fact pattern, complicated, international law questions. They have to find the issues, I suppose. And I suppose also they have to read the law somewhere. That means research in an international law database. And it means they have to think through their position. And they have to come and argue effectively in front of what a panel of judges like you. Usually it's a panel of three judges, although sometimes it's two if we don't have enough judges. And then I think that the quarterfinals and the semifinals is a panel of five. And then the final is, I think, five or seven, depending on what. Professor Zhu Wenqi is the man in China. He's a senior professor at Renmin University, big, huge university. I have some pictures. Yeah, let's take a moment to look at them. And he runs the program, does a fabulous job. We're going to see those pictures in a minute. But so these law students are coming up in front of you. And there are a number of teams. So is one team facing off against another team? Or somebody wins and somebody loses? That's right. And each, except for the last three rounds, the semifinals, quarterfinals, and the finals, each participant gets a grade. It is graded by each judge. And then those grades will determine who is recognized as the best oralist. And they have the best brief at the final ceremony. Yes, yes. But one team does win and one team loses. And so you would judge through the competition. That's right. And then at the top of the competition, there's a senior winner, so to speak. And where does that senior winner go? Well, the top six teams then have the opportunity to go to Washington DC to compete in the international finals. And of course, I think it's in the quarterfinals that that six are identified. So the competition at that level is pretty keen. So this takes some weeks for you to go through this process. Oh, yeah, yeah. Well, for them, I was there, I guess. Well, the actual competition was like four days. So but in long, long days, like in one day, I presided over four different competitions. And everybody else did, too. So it's quite a bit. You're busy. The government of China pays for some of this or part of it? They take care of the expenses and lodging once we get there. For you? Yes. And they also, Professors Yu, is very good about providing a cultural opportunity. One year, we had the program at Beijing. And then usually another year, we'd go someplace else. Next year, they talk about going to Xi'an, where the terracotta soldiers are, which I hope happens, because we get to see all that. And does the government China pay for the students to come to Washington, or is that? I think maybe the schools take care of that. I don't know. So it sounds like this is popular with the government, popular with the schools, popular with the legal profession in China, no? Yes. It's supported financially by several of the big international and also large Chinese law firms supported. And they come on the last day and are able to be recognized. And of course, I'm sure they are looking at the talent for employment purposes. Sure, yeah. And while they want a better educated set of graduates, I guess, it really is my next question, is why is it popular? Why does the government like it? Why does the profession like it? Why are the students excited about it? What's in it for all of those people? Well, I don't know for sure. But I think it's the same reason they promote the English language in their educational system, because they want international, worldly, highly educated people. I mean, China is operating businesses all over the world and making investments. And they need people to help facilitate that, people who are sophisticated. And these students are very good. And I'm sure that that's part of their career path. Or maybe with the government, I don't know. Many of them go to come to the United States for study. I've written a lot of recommendation letters over the years for students. Those are the master's degrees. I mean, it seems like. Well, the master's degrees, but they also have figured out that it's the JD degree that has real value. Yeah, and I've helped, I think, three go to the JD programs and actually become American lawyers. And as I mentioned earlier, a foreign lawyer can go to California now. And take the bar exam. And these students who get the JD degree, of course, they usually take the bar wherever in whatever state they're in. Well, they really think global. Yes. And it must be something to watch them train up to be competent anywhere about international law anyway. And probably other things, too. So they can take the bar in California. And I know I met recently a fellow who took the bar in Florida, Chinese lawyer, and it must be happening all around the country. And they formed law firms. Chinese people, Chinese lawyers, formed law firms in the United States and practicing law that way. And so what you have is a very salient global consciousness and an attempt to influence, legally influence things, in all of the continents where they're doing business. And the knowledge to do that. And the knowledge to do that. We're going to take a short break, Shackley. When you come back, I'd like to see your photos. I'd like to talk about the 20 pages. What's in it? I'd like to put the kinds of issues that come up. Make me one of your competitive students. I could tell you some of the facts, yeah. All right. OK. The Shackley River Federal will be right back with more. This is Think Tech Hawaii, raising public awareness. I'm Helen Dora Hayden, the host of Voice of the Veteran. Seen here live every Thursday afternoon at 1 PM on Think Tech Hawaii. As a fellow veteran and veterans advocate with over 23 years experience serving veterans, active duty, and family members, I hope to educate everyone on benefits and accessibility services by inviting professionals in the field to appear on the show. In addition, I hope to plan on inviting guest veterans to talk about their concerns and possibly offer solutions. As we navigate and work together through issues, we can all benefit. Please join me every Thursday at 1 PM for the Voice of the Veteran. Aloha. OK, this is Think Tech Asia. I'm Jay Fidel. We are honored by the presence of Shackley River Federal. He's retired Chief Judge of the Second Circuit Court in Maui. And he is involved for some years now, did you say eight? Yeah, about eight years. Eight years with the Jessup Appellate Argument Competition. I guess the proper name is the Jessup International Law Moot Court Competition in China. And through that program today, we like to learn about China's view of international law and the competence of its students to practice in that area around the world. And there's got to be a lot of good reasons for that. But let's talk about the fact pattern, the 20-page single space fact pattern that's so dense that sounds intimidating at the outset. What's in that 20-page? It's intimidating because it's complicated. You know, yourself, when you first start looking at legal problems, there are so many facts. It's just a real challenge to figure out what's important and what's not important and spot the issues. As I mentioned, it's usually about 20 pages long. And it's usually designed to raise four distinct issues and then sub-issues under each of those. And of course, as judges, we're looking to kind of like a checklist to see did the student catch all these issues, and how did they handle them, and they get a lot of questioning. I wanted to ask you about you. I asked a lot of questions. You're a hot court guy. Well, I want to see if they can think it through when they're asked a question. Plus, it's interesting to ask the questions. It really is a give and take. And this year, the main issues were, it was basically a story about a regional area. And they use these really complicated names. So you have to master them. But there were two countries in particular. And they had a long coastline. And one country became the People's Republic of X and had adopted a political system that was different than the rest of the countries. And then he had this other country that had a big navy. And it had a history of sort of protecting the ocean commerce around. And the People's Republic decided that they wanted to control their territorial waters. And so they passed a local statute saying you can't come in our territorial waters unless we permit you to. Ooh, this sounds like the South China Sea. And the big navy sent an autonomous submersible into the, let's say, strayed into the gathering acoustic and communication information. These are really relevant problems. Yeah, yeah, and the People's Republic grabbed that submersible and took it. And so that was one of the big issues. Can they do that? And I don't know if it's an act of war or things like that. And then the People's Republic developed a nuclear submarine that was armed with nuclear missiles and put it to sea. And then there was a UN resolution authorizing the big country to confront and neutralize. I think it was called the Ibra, was the submarine. And they did that. And then on the way, they sank a privately owned ship like a military contractor ship. This is bristling with issues. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty formidable. Is the fact pattern the same all over the world? These are the fact patterns just from China? No, no, it's exactly the same problem for all the 90 countries. And so that's what makes the competition interesting. Oh, yeah. So do you study up on the fact pattern beforehand? You've done your own thinking about it. Yeah, I've learned a lot of international law over eight years. And yeah, well, they give you a list of the materials. But to read through all those would be a pretty formidable thing. And then just toward the competition, they gave us what they call a, it's a judge's brief. It's a summary. And then what I do is I summarize that. And I use that as a checklist. And between that and grading 15 briefs, I get up to speed for. Are there hard answers? I mean, for example, is there a yes or no on whether one country is entitled to seize the submersible of the other? Well, these are students, right? So they say, well, you know, what happened was there was this private cargo vessel was supposed to be providing supplies to the submarine, which is on the high seas. And so the country that was armed with the UN resolution to stop the submarine sunk the private vessel. It didn't respond to a couple of radio calls. So they launched 15 cruise missiles at it and sunk it and killed a bunch of civilians. It's going to happen on a fun page any day. Yeah, yeah. And one side is saying, yeah, that's fine. They had the UN, would that happen in real life? And then they located the submarine finally. And then they fired torpedoes at it. Whoever wrote it, or the man who wrote it, wasn't a naval officer, certainly. They fired torpedoes at this nuclear-powered submarine and forced it to the surface. And then they took it. And they dismantled it. And they repatriated the crew. This is a great movie. Yeah. Yeah, it's very, I mean, and every year it's something like that, only with a different subject matter. And so it's very challenging for the students. Yeah, but I guess you can really get excited about this because it is so now in its own way. And because it reaches out to global events that either have happened, some similar event has happened or could happen. And it's a kind of a mirror image of geopolitics in the world we live in. One of the things that strikes me is that there are young people and they don't have a lot of world experience. So they'll say, yeah, it was OK to sink that cargo vessel because we had to get to the submarine. And I thought, gee, probably they should have just admitted that that was a mistake and offered to pay for it rather than try to defend that. Because the more you defend an impossible position, you lose credibility, right? Sure. We know that from the daily newspaper. Yeah, and so in the training we do the last day, I talked to the students about that. You pointed out from the bench, you say, that's nice that you said that was fine to sink that ship. But what you might have said is we're sorry and we'll pay for it. Do you tell them your view of it? Well, I did because I was not going to serve as a judge in the rest of the competition. The people who serve as a judge are admonished not to discuss good or bad arguments on those particular facts. Because otherwise it would be given an unfair advantage. But I wasn't going to continue to participate. So I did comment on things like that. That's very valuable. Are these taped? What? The competitions? The arguments, the comments from the bench? Well, usually they tape, I think, the semifinals and the finals. This year they just taped the semifinals. I don't know what they do with those. I've never seen one. Boy, I'd give a lot to be there and tape this to be really exciting. It is interesting, yeah. And the thing is, it's just like real life. All of the judges are different. They all ask questions that are totally different from one another. They come from different cultures and points of view. And part of the training that I did, I said, that's what you're going to mean in real life. There's all different kinds of judges and your ability to. Especially in international law, because you could be anywhere when this kind of comes up. Exactly. You might have a panel with a judge from Russia and Armenia and Australia. Yeah. Well, I think it's great that it happens, because it also teaches people. Sort of like the organization down in Waikiki, where the DOD here invites a US. I know what you mean. I can't remember the name right now. US something. Invites military officers and also civilian officials come to Hawaii and engage with each other. And so that's really what you're doing. You're engaging these people with others who may be in the play later. And they will benefit by this, by just understanding it. It's better not to try to avoid criticism if you sunk the guy's ship, that there are better ways. These are lessons that are huge lessons. So let's look at your pictures. What have we got here? I think about 24. Well, they're a little out of order. This is the closing ceremonies. And this is a picture of all of the volunteer students. Many students volunteer to help with the competition. And at the end, professors, you traditionally give them each a red rose. What I do is I take a couple of boxes of macadamia net candy and give it to the student volunteers every year. Next. Oh, this is the final dinner. You cannot engage in conversations with the students until the end of the competition. And that night, they have a big dinner. And they're all sitting at different tables. And so you have the opportunity to go speak with them. And they do. They come up to you and they say, you know, you were my judge. And you know, can you give me advice about my presentation? And so you have really, really nice. And they all want to photograph. And I did, too. So we had lots of, that's where these photographs came from. That's another picture of the dinner. Some of the sponsoring law firms also come. So they have an opportunity to meet. Next. This is a group of students. The gentleman on my left is from Finland. He's a good friend of mine. And he's a former law professor at the University of Lapland in Finland. And he now is an international lawyer in Europe, doing mergers and acquisitions. He comes every year. You see the shorter young woman in the front? Yes. She was very good. Yes. I wouldn't be surprised if that team scores very high in Washington. Now, this is in one of the rooms where we actually had a competition. So we have three of our judges. I was serving as the president of the court. And these are the two teams collectively. Because at the end of the competition, I always like to ask them all to come up for a photograph. And they like that, too. And it's a nice way to end the competition. I can't tell you which team is which. But it gives you an idea of what they look like. This is the judge's room. The gentleman seated with the down jacket there is Professor Zhu. I have some better pictures of him later. Just shows you where the judges hang out. And we have lunch. And it's rather nice. This is a room at Renman University in the law school. It's a very prestigious school, isn't it? Yes. They call it the party school. And I guess that means that the graduates who do well work in high positions in the government eventually, and so on. I'm not sure exactly. These are pictures of the campus. I walked around one day with a couple of other folks. This is a big athletic center of some sort. You can see it looks like winter, doesn't it? It was cold there. It was sparse, yeah. Next, we can go through these fairly rapidly. Yeah, go ahead. Some sort of big rock with some Chinese characters on it. This is where the final competition takes place. Inside, there is a huge amphitheater, which you saw in the first slide with the students. Oh, this is the library for the Renman University's huge place. Oh, this is funny. I was looking at the books, and you see President Trump's book is there. And if you look up in the right-hand corner, that's President Xi's. A little higher up. I thought it was an interesting juxtaposition. There's a message there. Yeah, this was the campus bookstore, which I was very interested to go see. And this is the front of the law school. We had to negotiate those steps every day, which for an older fellow is becoming a challenge. Oh, a friend took us downtown for a really good Chinese meal one night. You can go back to that for a second, or keep going. There's more of it. You see that huge building at the end? That's a recreation of one of the ancient nine gates of Beijing, the inner city of Beijing. That's what it looked like around the time of the Boxer Rebellion. And it's very impressive. Can you imagine a city with nine of those things going on in the Forbidden City in the center of it? There's a better picture of it, isn't it impressive? Unless a recreated gate. Apparently, it's rebuilt. And this is my friend from Finland and the son of my friend from the University of International Relations. That's where I taught a summer school. Xi Jinping is her name. Oh, this is just at the airport where I left. I thought, I looked at the seat. They go everywhere from Beijing Airport. Abu Dhabi, Singapore, Addis Aba, you name it. This is coming home. The last Y appeared over the wing. Oh, it always feels good to come back. So you've been doing this a long time, and you've been doing other projects in China, other visits in China, and other places in Asia. And I want to ask you one final question, Shaq. It's like a Passover question. Why was this trip different from all the others? Where are you on the dynamic? What did you learn this time? What did you observe this time that was different than anything you saw before? Oh, boy. Each time I've gone there, it's been an extraordinary experience. People are a bit different. New people come and go who serve as judges. So you're meeting different people. I don't think it was much different except for that. You're going to keep on doing it? Yes. Why? Oh, it's very stimulating and very interesting. Intellectually. Yeah, yeah. Yes. And personally, because of the people you meet and the relationships that you establish, I've met some really, really nice people in China. People are very friendly in China. I'm struck by that. Yeah, I've always had a nice time. We used to wrestle Liu, our friend. He used to take me down to the area where the guitar shops are. And we used to go into the guitar store. They make these beautiful guitars in China and play the guitar and talk to the guy. And then we go into the Chinese traditional instrument shop. And the lady would play for us. It was a lot of really interesting experiences. And going there with the jessipus exposes that. Because you're a good justification, good cause for it. Well, I think you've got the tiger by the tail in the sense that this is, in many ways, the future. It's the future for many countries, but certainly the future for China. To be able to deal in geopolitical and a diplomatic sphere, to deal on international law, to have its graduates akamai in these areas. If you're going to do one belt, one road, if you're going to try to make influence in Africa and South America and Europe now, you have to be akamai about international relations. This is what they're teaching. This is what you're teaching. Yeah, the students will never forget this experience. And if they meet people around the world who participate in jessipus, it's like a fraternity or sorority experience. Which is great. It builds international understanding. Yes, that's the point. Thank you so much, Shakira Federal. Great to have you on the show. My pleasure. Good to see you. See you again soon. OK, thank you, Jay.