 From around the globe, it's theCUBE with digital coverage of DockerCon Live 2020, brought to you by Docker and its ecosystem partners. Okay, Jenny, great to see you again. James, governor, nail on the keynote there. Chat was phenomenal, that was prerecorded, but James was also in the chat stream, a lot of good conversations. That hit home for me, that keynote. One, because memory lane was going down. It reminded me of the 80s when it was a revolution. And we got him in the green room here. James, governor, welcome. James is here, hi James. Here we go. Fresh off the keynote. It's always a revolution, it's always a revolution. Well, in the 80s, I just loved your talk, a couple of key points I want to share and get your thoughts on was just to some highlights for the crowd, is one, you walked through some of the key inflection points that I think were instrumental, there probably were some other ones, depending upon your perspective of where you were in the industry at that time, whether you're a systems programmer or a networking guy, there was a proprietary world and it was a revolution back then and UNIX was owned by AT&T, if no one remembers. You couldn't even use the word, you had to trademark it. So, we actually had to call it Zeno, which is UNIX spelled backwards in all the texts and whatnot. And even open source software freeware was kind of illegal, MIT did some work northeastern, Berkeley and all the schools. It was radical back then. So, yeah, we've come a long way for sure. I think that for me that was one of the things that I wanted to really point to in the keynote was that yes, we have definitely come a long way and it's, you know, development culture is about open culture. I think the thing that I like to point out, especially hate to sound like I'm old, but I am, but I live through that and the younger generation coming and have all these new tools. And I got to say, not that I walked through to school in the snow with no shoes on, but it's a pretty cool developer environment now. But remember, things were proprietary back then. If you start to see the tea leaves now, I look at the world, you see these silos, you see silos that's kind of, they're not necessarily proprietary, but they might not necessarily be open. So, you kind of have a glimpse of open source and these projects and these companies, whether they're tech companies, it feels open, but it might not be, it could be walled garden, it could be data being hoarded. So, as data opens up, this is interesting to me because I want to get your thoughts on this because in a way it feels proprietary, but technically it's not proprietary. What's your thoughts on this? Because this is going to be the next 20 years of evolution. What's your thoughts? I think the productivity wins. Whoever packages technology in a way that makes it most productive for people, that's what wins. And open source was productive, it was very accessible. It enabled new ways. I mean, you know, you don't have to get installed and you know, you've got a package from, you know, you got access to just a world of open source, a world of software, that was a big revolution. And, you know, I guess the cloud sort of came next and I think that's been one of the big shifts you took about proprietary. What matters is how easy you make things for people to do their work. And in that regard, obviously Amazon is in fact a bigger distribution network, makes technology super consumable by so many people. So, you know, I think that we, you know, I guess I would say that open is good and important, but it's not the only thing. As you say, data is a lock-in and it's a right and people are choosing services that make them productive. If we look at the, you know, nobody worries about whether Amazon Lambda is proprietary. They just know that they can build companies or businesses or business processes on it. You know, it's interesting, you know, back in the day, just to kind of segue the next topic, we were fighting proprietary operating systems, UNIX and others. We were also fighting proprietary network protocol stacks. SNA was owned by IBM, Decnet was digital, the number one network, and then TCPIP, and Open, Cineanus Interconnect came out. That's the OSI model for us, that set the table. That changed the face of everything, really enabled a lot. So when I see containers, what Docker did early on, pioneering phases of Docker containers, it unleashed a new reality of coolness and scale and capabilities, and then in comes Kubernetes and in comes microservices. So this path is showing some real strength for new kinds of capabilities. So how does a developer navigate all this, because data lock-in, is it a data plane, seems to be a control point. What are we fighting now in Europe? I shouldn't say we're fighting, but what's the, what are we trying to avoid if operating systems was for closing opportunities and network protocol stacks were for closing in the past. What do you see in barriers that need to be broken down in the open source world around going down this great path of microservices, decomposed applications, highly cohesive architectures? I mean, honestly, there's enough work to be getting on with without like fighting someone in that regard. I mean, we're fighting against technical debt. You know, we're fighting against, I just, I just don't think that people are resurrated about fighting against proprietary anymore. I think that's less than a concern. Open source technology is great. You know, it's how most work gets done in our industry today. So, you know, you mentioned, you know, Kubernetes and certainly Docker. Docker did a phenomenal job of packaging up an experience that mapped to CI CD, the kind of developer workplace people wanting to do. Phenomenal job. And, you know, I think that for me at least when I look at where we are as an industry, it's all about productivity. So, you know, there are plenty of interesting new platforms. I think I'm like, you know, that's my question. I'm less interested in microservices than I am in distributed work. I'm interested in one of the tools that are going to enable us to become more productive, solve more problems, build more applications and get better at building software. So, I think that's my sort of focus. There will always be lock-in. And I think the, you know, you will also have technologies mitigate against that. I mean, you know, clear messages today from Docker about supporting multiple clouds. You know, for a while at least, multi-cloud seemed like something only the hand waivers were interested in. But, you know, increasingly we're seeing organizations where that is definitely part of how they're using the cloud. And again, I think very often it's within specific areas. So, you know, we see organizations that are using particular clouds for particular things and we'll see more of that. And the productivity thing, I love the passion, love that in the keynote, that was loud and clear. Two key points I want to get your reaction on that you mentioned. One was inclusion and including more people, not seeing news, it's kind of iterative. And also virtual work environments, virtual events, you kind of made a highlight there. So again, as people are distributed remote first, it's not, it's an opportunity to be productive. Can you share your thoughts on those two points? One is, as we're distributed, that's going to open the aperture of more engagement, more people coming in. So code of conduct, not as a, you know, a file you must read or some rule. Culturally embracing a code of conduct. And then also virtual events, virtual groups convening like we're doing here. Yeah, I mean, for me at least, you know, I pointed to Alison McMillan from GitHub and, you know, she just gave such a great demo at the recent satellite event where she finished and she was like, this is, you know, it was all about, I want to be able to put the kids to bed for a nap and then go code. And I think, you know, that sort of thinking where, you know, people ban you around the phrase rule in this together. But I mean, certainly, you know, parenting is a team sport. But I think it's interesting, we're not welcome. It was interesting, I was looking at the chat go through, I was being accused of being woke. I was being accused of being a social justice warrior. But look at the math, you know, the graph is pretty clear. Women are not welcomed in tech. And that means we're wasting 50% of available resource to us and we're treating people like shit. So, you know, I thought I underplayed that in the talk, actually, I sort of, you know, and I don't, you know, it's only like, oh, why is he complaining about Linus? Well, the fact is, is that Linus himself admitted, you know, he needed to change his persona in order to just be more modern and welcoming in terms of building software and building communities. So, look, I mean, you know, we've got people from around the world, different cultural norms, you know, we can't, all of the women I know who work in tech suffer so much from, you know, effectively daily harassment. Their bona fides are challenged. These are things that we need to change because women are brilliant. And it's, that's not, I'm not virtually signaling, or maybe I am, you know. The fact is, is that women are amazing at software and we do a terrible job of supporting them. So, women, other nationalities, we're not going to be traveling as much. I think even after Corona, we can't keep flying around as much, you know, make an industry where single parents can participate more effectively, where, you know, you know, we can take advantage of that. 200 million people in Nigeria, you know, that hunger to engage. And at the moment, it was like, oh, we won't even give them a visa. And then we may not be, you know, treating them right. But we're just thinking, we need an industry reset. I think from a, we need to travel less. We need to do better work and we need to be more welcoming in order that that can be the case. Yeah, there's no doubt a reset is here. And you look at the COVID crisis forcing that function there, because one, people are resetting and reinventing and trying to figure out a growth strategy, whether it's a business or teams. And what's interesting is new roles and new responsibilities are going to emerge. And I think you're right about the women in tech. I completely agree and have evidence myself and report on it in ad nauseam. But the thing is data Trump's opinion and the data is clear on this issue. So if anyone of you is social justice warrior, you know, I just say pound sand and tell them that, you know, go on their way and just look at the data and clear. And also the field is getting wider. When I was in computer science major back in the day, it was male dominated. Yes, but it was very narrow. It wasn't as broad as it is now. You could, you can do things so much more. And in fact, Kelsey Hightower's talk, he talks about the two persona developers, the ones that love to learn and ones that don't want to learn anything. They just want to code and do their thing. And ones that care about just app development and ones that just want to get in and sling K8 around like it's nobody's business or work with APIs, work with infrastructure. Some just want to write code. So there's more and more surface area in computer science and coding or not even computer science, just coding, developing. Well, I mean, it's a bigger industry. You know, we've got clearly all sorts of challenges that need to be solved. And the services that we've got available are incredible. I mean, you know, if you look at at the work of companies like Netlify in terms of developer experience, you know, you look at the emergence of Jamstack and the productivity that we're seeing there. It's really exciting time in the industry. And as I say, I mean, it's an exciting time. It's a scary time, but I do. I think that we're moving to a world of more distributed work. And that's my point about open source and working on code basis from different places and what the cloud can enable. You know, we can work in a different way and we don't all need to be in South Francisco, London or Berlin, as I said, Nikita. I love the vision there and the passion. I totally agree with it. I think that's a whole nother distributed paradigm that's going to move up the stack, if you will, and software, I think it's going to be codified. I think cloud native and cloud scale creates new services. I mean, it's, you know, the virtual world, you mentioned virtual events, groups convening like the 67,000 people coming together virtually here at DockerCon. Large, small, one-on-ones group dynamics are a piece of it. So share your thoughts on virtual events. I mean, certainly it's, people are now just kicking the tires, learning, you do a Zoom, you do a live stream, you do some chat. It's going to evolve and I think it's going to look more like a CICD pipeline than anything else. As you start to bring media together, we've got 43 sessions here. Why not make it 100 sessions? So, you know, I think this is going to be one of those learning environments where it's not linear, it's different. What's your vision on this? If you had to give advice for the folks out there, not event plans, but people who want to gather groups and be productive, what's your thinking on this? Well, it sort of has to happen. I mean, there are a lot of people doing, you know, good work in this, in this regard. Patrick DeBois, founder of DevOps Days, he's doing some brilliant work delineating, just what are all the different platforms? What does the streaming platform look like that you can use? Obviously, you've got one here with a cube. Yeah, I mean, I think the numbers are pretty clear. If event, I mean, Microsoft build had 245,000 registered attendees, I think some of them might've been dipping in. The patterns are slightly different. You know, it's not like they're going to be there the whole time, but the opportunity to meet people where they are, I think is something that we shouldn't ignore. Particularly in a world not everyone again has the privilege of being able to travel. You know, you're in, you know, a different country or as I say, perhaps your life circumstances being you can't travel from an accessibility perspective. Clearly, virtual events offer an opportunity that we haven't fully nailed. I think Microsoft performance in this regard has been super interesting. They were already moving that way. And, you know, COVID just slammed it up to another level. What they did with build recently was actually, I mean, they're a media company, right? But specifically develop a focused media company. So I think it'll be okay. You're about the business of software, John. Don't worry, Microsoft will keep you some space, sir. We're under the radar, the Cube 365 for the folks watching. This is our site that we built with our software. So, you know, we're open and Docker was instrumental and I think the Docker captains were also very instrumental in trying to help us figure out the best way to preserve the content value. I personally think we're in this early stage of, you know, content and community to clearly go hand in hand. And I think as you look at the chat and some of the names that are on there, some of the comments, really there's a new flywheel of production and this to me is the ultimate collaboration when you have these distinct groups coming together. And I think it's going to just be a data dream where people aren't the product, they're actually a contributor. And I think this open source framework that you're talking about is going to be certainly just going to evolve rapidly. I think it's just not even scratching the surface. I just think this is going to be pretty massive. And services, whatever you want to define that could be an API to anything. It's going to be essentially the scale point. I mean, why have a monolith piece of software running something? You know, this could something Microsoft teams will work well here, Zoom will work well there. But ultimately, what's in it for me, the person? And this is the key question. Developers just want to develop. You're going to hear that throughout the day. Kelsey Hightower brings up some great points in his session. And Amanda Silver at Microsoft, she had a quote on one of her videos. She said, app developers are the first responders in this crisis. And that's the first time I've heard someone say that out loud. And that hits home for me because it's true. And right now, app developers are one of the front lines. They're providing the apps of work. They're providing to the practitioners in the field. This is something that's not really written about in the press. What's your reaction to app developers are the first responders in this crisis? Well, I mean, first, I think it's important to pay tribute to people that actually are first responders. Writing code can make us responsive, but let's not forget, there are people that are lacking PPE and they are on the front line. So not to criticize Amanda, but I might frame it slightly differently. But certainly what the current situation has shown us is productivity is super important. Target has made huge investments in building out its own software development capabilities. So they used to be like 70% external, 30% internal, and they turn that round to like 80% internal, 20 external, and they've been turning on a dime. And well, there's so much going on at the moment. I might talk about Target, then I'm remembering what's happening in Minneapolis today, but anyway, we won't talk about that. But yeah, organizations responding quickly or look at the incredible times that Shopify is having because all sorts of business is something like we need to be an online business. What's the quickest way to do that? And Shopify was able to pack something up in a way that they could respond to challenges. So, I don't know, huge social challenges. I'm a big believer. I'm a big believer the future is unwritten at this point and I think there's a lot of problems out there. You point out and the first responders are there. I agree. I'm just thinking that there's got to be a better path for all of us. And this brings up the whole new roles and responsibilities around this new environment. And I know you're doing a lot of research. Can you share some thoughts on what you're kind of working on now, James? That's important. I'll see what's trending here at DockerCon is compose a relationship with Microsoft. You got security, Docker's now multi-cloud approach, making it easier. That's their bread and butter. That's what they're known for. They're kind of going back to that roots of why they pioneered in the first place. So as that continues, ease of use, what's your focus area right now that you're researching that you can share with the audience? Well, I don't know. I mean, I'd say this year for me, I've got probably three key areas. One is what's called GitOps. So it's the notion that using Git as a system of record. So that, you know, developers aren't off randomly making changes. Everything has a, you know, you have an audit trail. You begin to have some sort of sense of compliance in software changes. I think the idea of everything has to be via sort of a pull request. That automation model is super interesting to me. So I've been looking at that. A lot of development teams are using those approaches. Observability is a huge trend. You know, we're moving to the idea of, you know, testing and production, the kind of stuff that's been evangelized so successfully by charity majors at Honeycomb is super exciting to me. And it's true because in effect, you're always testing and production. You know, your dev environment, I mean, we used to have this idea that you'd have a dev and a dev stage, you have a staging environment. You've had these different, the only environment that really matters is where the rubber meets the road. And that is deployment. So I think that having better tools for that is one of the areas I'm looking at. So how are tools innovating in that area? And then probably the thing that is my own personal thing and I've been talking about progressive delivery, which is asking a question about reducing risk by really understanding the blast radius of the service and being able to roll it out to specific user populations first, understanding who they are and rolling it out. So it's the idea that like, maybe you roll something out to your employees first. Maybe you are in California and you roll something out in Tokyo, knowing that not many people are using that service. It is a live environment, but it's not, people are not going to be adversely affected if it happens. So canaries, blue-green deployments, and also experimentation, the sort of, one of the areas that are being sort of pulled towards is sort of product management and how that's really converging with software development. I mean, that's one of the things I hadn't fully, you know, I mean, I think it's one thing to have a research focus, but you have to respond to new information. And yeah, I was spending a lot of time thinking about the world of product management because those companies we most respect in terms of companies that are crushing it in the digital economy, they have such a strong product management focus. Everything is driven by product managers that understand technology. And that's an exciting shift and one that I'm paying for. You know, you do some great work and I love the focus on productivity, software development, you know, getting those app developers out there. And it's interesting. I just think that it's such an exciting time. It's almost intoxicating. You know, I saw people drinking on Twitter online having beers because they're in a different time zone. But if you look at up and down the stack, the action that's going on, you got at the application developer side, all the things you were mentioning services. But then you look at the cloud side, you got almost this operating system reset. It's got, it's a systems architecture. So you have all the, that's up and down the middle of the stack to the bottom, you have this operating systems thinking and evolution. And then you got at the top, the pure software developers. And you know, this is again, to me, the big aha moment for the industry is, there's a true opportunity to scale that in unbelievable ways. And you don't have to pick a side. You can do up top of the stack, bottom of the stack. So I think Kubernetes and microservices really bring this whole enablement piece to the table. And that fascinates me. And I think that's going to change what the apps will look like. It'll give more productivity. And then making the internet programmable, systems. So that seems to be the trend. You're a systems guy, you're a gal or you're a developer. How do you see that evolving? Do you get to that level? Well, I think, I mean, Kubernetes is not, I mean, it, you know, sort of developer experience is not necessarily the key value of Kubernetes. It's a supremely flexible sort of system. It does offer you that portability. But I think what I'm seeing now is how people are taking Kubernetes and kind of thinking. So you've got, you know, VMware acquires Heptio, brings Pivotal into the fold. Start thinking about what that platform looks like. I think Pivotal and Cloud Foundry did a great job of thinking through operator experience. Operator experience is not the same as developer experience. I think we're going to see a bit more specialization of roles. Meanwhile, at that point, you've got the cloud players all doing, you know, pretty awesome job of supporting Kubernetes which gives that portability promise. So I think for me, one of the things is not expecting everyone to do everything. It's like Kelsey said, some people just want to come into work and do their job and they're super important. And so, you know, VMware, they've got a history of, you know, certification, of application environments. So for them, it's sort of quite, and certification of humans, it's quite natural that they would be somebody who would think about how do we make Kubernetes more consumable and package it in a way that more people could take advantage of it. So I think, you know, there's a whole darker was such a phenomenon and now seeing how that sort of evolving into this, you know, that promise of portability is beginning to be realized. But I think the specialization, the pendulum is going to swing back just a little bit. Yeah, I think it's just great time and congratulations on all the work. And thanks for taking the time for participating in DockerCon with the keynote, taking time out of your day and coming in and doing this live interview. The chat looks good. Hit some great, get some fans in there. It's a great opportunity. And I think Docker as a pioneer is pivoting in a new direction. It's all about developer productivity and James, you've been on it. At Monk Chips is his Twitter handle, follow him, hit him up. John Furrier here in the studio for DockerCon 2020, Ginny Briccio and you got Brett Fisher on the captain's channel. If you go to the site, you'll see the calendar, jump into any session you want. They'll be either be live on the time or on-demand instantly. The cube track, it's a series of enemies. We've got Amazon, we've got Microsoft, get some great guests, great practitioners that are literally having an impact on society. So thanks for watching. James, thanks for spending the time. Thank you very much, John. Okay, James Governor, founder of Monk Chips, great firm, great person. Red Monk, Red Monk, Red Monk is the company. Monk Chips is the Twitter. Monk Chips, Red Monk, Red Monk is the company. Red Monk, Red Monk. Red Monk at Monk Chips is his Twitter handle at Red Monk is the firm. Thank you for the correction. Okay, more coverage DockerCon after this short break. Stay with us. Next segment is coming up. 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