 So we open up for discussion, questions. So, on the road from Udessa Warwick and UNWider. May I address this question to Steve? Steve, first of all, excellent, very clear, level-headed presentation, I think, about the pros and cons. I just had one question about your views on the pipeline, because you mentioned the geopolitics of moving the Ugandan oil through Kenya. But the decision now, as I understand it, is that we move down through Tanzania to a port of Tanga. But that process will involve going through something like a hundred different districts of Tanzania, all of which will have some sort of say on this happening and some involvement, I guess, in the problem you mentioned of heating at various intermediate points. It's also one of the most expensive investment projects that's ever been thought of in Africa, as I understand it. Could you just comment briefly on your own perceived view about the reality of this pipeline? Thank you. Could we have a... Yes, please. We'll take three questions, and then hopefully they're equally distributed. We'll see. Thank you very much for the presenter. It was really interesting and very informative for hearing different experiences. My small observation, again, go back on the oil and gas and revenue mobilization in Uganda by Steve Mugen. I just get interested to see how long the country has been waiting the export of oil. And some of the comments you have already mentioned, it's about how long people can wait and how this have affected the economic position of Uganda because when you look at the time and probably look at the expectations, probably there are some investments in land expropriation, investment in estate, as you mentioned. But all this, again, affects the economic stability and the planification. So do you think that this investment, let's say the investors, who came to build the pipelines and who came to land expropriation, do you think they will get the terms on what they are doing? Because the problem is they have already invested and probably international oil prices are changing, the expectation of the climate change and probably potential reduction in oil use in the future. All these are going to affect all the plans for the Uganda who have been waiting to use these natural sources. Do you think that there is an alternative for the Ugandans to probably cope with oil use in the future? Thanks. Okay. Steve, thank you so much for your presentation. I'm from Uganda. My name is Joseph and you gave us a very good overview of what is really happening in Kampala and Uganda concerning oil. We are here in Norway and Norway is a very good case study for good practice in the oil sector. So what can Uganda learn from Norway and what should we take and probably improve our sector even before the oil flows? Thank you. Thank you. Yeah, unfortunately you have three questions to ask. Thank you so much. By the way, thanks so much. Seems that you are actually listening to what I was presenting earlier. I like the level headed. I don't quite know what it means but probably means that I didn't overshoot in any way. Very quickly, I think that the total, total E&P is of course a French company. It's quite interesting that it's expanding so much social capital but as well as financial capital in Uganda. So there's a whole lot of what fascinates me is the dynamics of oil and what's happening around Africa. For example, ideally total would be investing in West Africa. I would imagine in the Mali's and the cultivars of this world but actually they are diversifying from what is a completely terrible experience of French experience around that region and they are looking at the French companies looking at Mozambican gas. They are actually trying to look at Tanzanian oil and so on. They are almost moving entirely from so another aspect of it. Going back very quickly, yes. Oil seems to be going through the pipeline will go through probably long, maybe over 1,000 miles and several what would that be in kilometers. As I said before, what is helping in the case of Tanzania is Tanzania owns land by the constitution. It can grab it. It can... So it's a much stronger position. There have been much more difficult where the private sector, private ownership is much more entrenched in Kenya so that might help but it's still going to be a logistical nightmare when you consider the issues already in Uganda in terms of land where people have not been paid or ghost households have been paid and the real ones have not been paid already even before the oil starts flowing. So there are going to be challenges and issues but I say the momentum because it's taken off. There's no way you can do it half way. It's started. There's a lot of political commitment. I do feel that it will go on. Obviously governments change. If a new government comes in maybe but as long as M70 is leading that country I think it will go on. He has invested so much in terms of social capital and political capital. Yes. You are talking about the issues what they call generally stranded assets. You build this whole white elephants and then nothing really happens. So there is always that threat because it's huge. These parts of Uganda you're transferring from stone age technologies really. People that are living under very crude conditions to high level technology. Helicopters coming in. They're building out an international airport. So kind of putting those things together is going to be quite a challenge and sort of putting pressure on a whole lot of people. Very quickly 100 years ago there was a king called Kabariga around Hoima. So when he was taken prisoner he reputedly said something like everything as is time. He said many years ago. So people from that region are saying the man said everything as is time. This is our time now. So you can see everything is planned out. I don't know. Joseph, thank you so much. What can Uganda learn from Norway? That is one example I sort of gave as a conclusion. I think I'll just give that one example. Norway says that if you cannot use some of the oil preserved for future generations and just used to expand. In a way Norway is very interesting. You come in, it's a normal Scandinavian country. I lived for a long time in Sweden with him and it was different. And yet this country is sitting on use an African expression is sitting on one trillion point five dollars in terms of the resources that have come from oil. That could never happen today. In today's political economy in Africa it could never happen. This country has one trillion saved somewhere? You know, the Mercedes Benz for the president. It's not strong enough because there are a lot of bumps helicopter for the president so he can come and so on so forth. So the pressures are quite different. But obviously Norway has had hundreds of years of political experimentation. It's a different kind of society. It's extremely homogeneous and of course it's extremely in the Scandinavian and up there in the so it's not involved. It doesn't have all these dangerous neighborhoods that you have around Uganda. So it's not quite the same country. But definitely just learning that just spending on useless things is what this country has not done. It has been much more effective in using its resources. Thank you so much. Thanks. We do another round. Yes, please. This is directed to Etienne and Catherine. What a fascinating couple of papers. I was super excited and mesmerized by the presentations. I come from the EITI and it's really encouraging to see that the data is being used to do this analysis. But I also understand that there's a lack of data to measure that. So we have two questions. The first one for Etienne. What are the resources of data in this really scarce world of data? Are you, for example, measuring production, vis-a-vis exports and sales? And that's how you can have a proxy of that amount of losses, of revenue lost. And that comes to the second question that's also directed to Catherine. It's really encouraging to see, for example, that it's Nigeria EITI which is secretariates and with longer history of implementing the EITI that's actually producing this information. And it's really encouraging to see also that good data and good infrastructure can then increase demand for better analysis and better data as well. But so what are the lessons that you think we can learn to actually help the data for this kind of analysis being produced? We are very happy that we have now a new 2023 EITI standard that brings more information demand from the environmental side and stronger anti-corruption mechanisms also in the publicization of data, but we need to strengthen that further. So yeah, any thoughts? Thank you. Yeah, we have one more at the back to the right. Okay, that was also one. Right, thank you. Another question to Jen and Catherine here. I'm much more interested in minerals and metals, so I just would like to know in your work, have you come across any similar approaches at Jen when it comes to metals? Thank you. Thank you so much to the whole panel for your very, very interesting presentations. Again, my name is Jan-Peter Holterdahl. I'm from NORAD the section for governance and transparency. I'd like to comment on Steve's question from Uganda, but first maybe to mention that we had a visit in NORAD a year or two ago from Helen Klang, the chair of EITI and she concluded the whole discussion by saying governance is everything. I think she has a very strong point and maybe that's what's been a fortune for Norway but also I noted Steve's points on the delay in oil production in Uganda, perhaps having been a blessing in disguise because so much has been at least there's been quite a lot done in terms of establishing institutions building expertise, etc. But just to share the super short version of the Norwegian history, if I may and mainly as a, not as an expert but just as a Norwegian citizen this is all a shared history here in Norway. Four things happened. One, people with foresight worked very hard to establish the principle of how to share resources between countries and the midline principle ended up being recognized as an international principle. Two, we knew nothing about oil and gas production, nothing at all and we were small. The big producers came in and we said to them you teach us everything. Absolutely everything and we did. They taught us everything and we became experts. We weren't always experts. Three, very high tax levels established and four, a consensus in parliament that at the time, 70s, 80s to establish a pension fund which is now why we're known as being stinking rich across the world but we haven't always been and there were reasons why we ended up in such a fortunate position. And it's not necessarily the case that only Norway can do this. I remember I had the pleasure of visiting Zambia, Lusica the IGF, ATAF and the Zambia Revenue Authority Conference back in June and one of the examples of a country that had done the same. I think it was East Timor that have actually established significant tax rates for let's say resource production in their country. So it's possible to replicate or at least be inspired by other countries' experiences. That was too long apologies. Thank you. Thank you for giving us the insights of the Norwegian experience. So I'll let the floor to you. Data and measurement is absolutely critical because we need to know what's going on. If you don't know what's going on, how do you take measures to act? And so nowadays using satellite measurements for emissions that gives us global coverage and that gives us global reach and the resolution is improving very fast so that we now not only know that it's being emitted but we also know who is emitting because the spatial resolution is there to do that certainly for gas flaring and for methane we get very close to that and technology is improving by the year so it's going very fast. For the illegal tests of oil it's a little bit more complicated as you can imagine because how do you spot oil being stolen? What can you do about it? But there are mechanisms that are being very effective and that can be more widely used and implemented. So I'll mention a few. One is the application of tracer testing. So oil companies in various countries what they do if they have a problem with theft is they emit a tracer A at the origin where they produce and they emit a tracer B where the oil is being collated and say there's a pipeline in between. And so if oil comes on the market and it has tracer A in it but not tracer B in it you know that it has been stolen between A and B. So it's very clever very simple and nowadays with tracers in my report I also think you can go much further you can actually do designer tracers to really mark each parcel of oil uniquely. So if that parcel of oil turns up somewhere you can actually trace its origins all the way where these tracers are being put in and these tracers are invisible so we know that they're there if you know what you're looking for. So technology in that sense is improving quite rapidly. The second one I would mention is metering. So Singapore is a great example. We know there's a lot of fuel adulteration happening in Singapore maritime sector. So they decided as the MPA the Port Authority that only multi-phase flow meters could be used and these are tempering proof and as soon as that was introduced by the government we saw the true extent of the amount of adulteration and mismanagement that happened before and we could actually calculate on the basis of that how much fuel was actually lost before. Now people getting smart and they start also to adulterate multi-phase flow meters with magnets and all of that. So it's always how to say a catching up process. And the third one I would mention on the metering is again satellites. Satellites again provide tremendous insights in bush refineries for example that I mentioned which are absolutely ecological test-free and certainly in certain countries it's hundreds of thousands of barrels going to waste in the environment that way. You can spot that from satellite. The other area is maritime systems. Ships that do illegal transfers at sea. You can actually spot them by satellites and again the same satellite technology that we use for flaring can be used to track ships at sea particularly lights but also radar systems and the likes are all traceable by satellites and I think when you see an aberration in terms of transponders being switched off that kind of thing usually you should start focusing on what is happening here and take action and the response time can be much accelerated. So three different metering solutions and as I said no golden bullet here just a mix of technologies that can help. Thanks Etienne. Thanks for all these great questions. To the point about data and EITI and Nigeria EITI one of the things that I think helped enormously in Nigeria was about two years ago three years ago it must be now they changed their data to actually report by asset until about I think 2019 all the reporting in the very good by the way EITI reports which are all on the website they were by they were aggregated for the most part so you couldn't really then EITI and saying pinpoint exactly which asset is which volumes and where who owns it etc. So they changed that so that allowed us when we did our analysis so they were doing that as a basis for establishing penalties because the government again has penalties in Nigeria three or four years prior to that they'd raised the level of the penalties to a more meaningful so that these you know sums were going from something like 15 million for all companies the last year under the old to about 250 million I can't quote that sort of order when they started to charge a more realistic level but importantly we were then able to look at the value of the gas on those assets that were reporting the penalties and what we would find a big discrepancy between that penalty level that the government had set did not in fact reflect the value of the wasted gas so again from a regulator point of view this independent satellite data because it's providing you with actual volumes and you can look at the prices and prices obviously vary but the difference is quite significant so what it tells you is that penalties are good but they may not actually reflect the value of the wasted gas which again comes back to the government revenues being lost as part they're not going to get all but as part of that so I think that's a really really important point and I mean to madness anything being done in metals I mean in my previous iteration at ICMM working on metals we had a whole program partnerships for development which was focused on precisely this public-private collaboration I mean the issues are somewhat different but not necessarily that different in the mining sector but we would have again multi-stakeholder workshops to debate the evidence that are being generated from a toolkit which are being developed by Oxford Policy Management and others so I think this model of collaboration I mean really these big challenging world problems we cannot just have regulation we cannot just have transparency we need these different elements to be working together you know they all got a role to play going back to the point about the importance of taxes that the IMF is looking at that's a game changer for regulators if something like that is applied it really is but you need that public-private collaboration and that's how I think we can really move the needle on some of these you know challenges we heard again this morning how there are many more challenges we have to deal with so these are some examples of ways which we can work together to address these so thank you all right so I think we'll end this session and thank all of you for interesting fascinating questions but I also want to thank the panel for the excellent presentations so thank you very much