 Good morning. Good morning everyone. Thank you all for joining us on this cold and wet morning. My name is Victor Chah. I'm a senior advisor and career chair here at CSIS and professor at Georgetown. And we have we're very happy today to team with the Gold Peace Foundation on a discussion of Mongolia's diplomacy with the two Koreas. This is for those of you who come to our CSIS career chair events know that this is usually not the area in which we work. We're always working on nuclear weapons and six-party talks and Japan-Korea relations are the lack thereof. But we thought that today's discussion would be particularly interesting and that we have a very good group of people who've come a long way to join us for it. So to start us off let me first introduce Mike Marshall from Global Peace Foundation who will offer some welcoming remarks. Thank you. I'd like to welcome all of you ladies and gentlemen and thank you for coming on behalf of the Global Peace Foundation. I particularly like to thank Victor, Victor Chah and his team for working together with us to co-sponsor this event. It's part of a series of forums. There's going to be four more coming up next year on themes such as humanitarian aid from civil society groups, China, Japan, Russia's role in relation to unification. So we hope you will follow this series with interest. The Global Peace Foundation is a relatively young organization. We're an international nonprofit that is committed to exploring and promoting innovative value-based approaches to peacebuilding and development. We're active in the United States and Korea and 13 other countries in the world mostly in the developing world, developing initiatives for community development and national transformation. Our founder and chairman, Dr. Hyunjin Preston Moon, recently wrote a book that was published in Korea called The Korean Dream, A Vision for a Unified Korea. It's become a best-seller over there, a publisher's award as Book of the Year. The book covers a wide range of issues related to unification. The economic opportunities that are presented, the opportunities to security presented by the changing geopolitical situation, and also the role of civil society organizations in building future bridges with North Korea. But most of all, it frames the issue of Korean unification in terms of the history of Korea and certain fundamental principles and values that are part of Korean history. Those of you who know a little bit about Korea will be familiar with the concept of Hong-in-gun. So the thought is that this sort of framing of Korean unification can transcend political differences within South Korea and ultimately the ideological differences between North and South. So the book and our organization is committed to promoting new thinking and new approaches to unification on the Korean Peninsula. And that's really the purpose of this series of forums to promote new approaches and new thinking. Probably one of the most important ways to take a new approach to the Korean Peninsula is to pay attention to the role of Mongolia, that Mongolia can play in relation to the two Koreas. It's a very significant role and a much underappreciated role and we hope this forum can rectify that. Mongolia has a unique history in terms of its transformation from communism to democracy and a unique position in relation to the two Koreas. That's something that's discussed in Dr. Moon's book. He had conversations with President Elbig Dorje going back to 2010 on this issue, Mongolia's role and the role of fundamental principles and values in bringing about national transformation. And of course those ideas were very much reflected in President Elbig Dorje's remarks in Pyongyang last year in October that you have a transcript of, you picked up as you came in. So today we're going to learn a great deal more, I hope, about the role that Mongolia can play and is playing in relation to the two Koreas. Thank you and I look forward to a very fruitful discussion. Thank you, Michael. I think it will be a very interesting discussion. Again for many of us who work on the two Koreas, it seems as though it's the same record that plays over and over again. It's the same sort of partners, the same sort of diplomacy, the same sorts of dead ends all the time. And for that reason we thought discussion of Mongolia might actually be quite interesting because it's not what we normally think about in terms of diplomacy with the two Koreas. And yet there appears to be a lot of potential here. If any of you had a chance to look at the speech that the President gave in North Korea, Kim Il-sung University, talking very openly about democracy and freedom. It's actually quite extraordinary that these statements were made at Kim Il-sung University. We have a very distinguished panel with us today and I will introduce them one by one in order to give them each their due time. Offering some opening remarks will be Ambassador Alton Garrell who is currently the Ambassador of Mongolia to the United States. From 2008 to 2012 he served as Ambassador of Mongolia to the United Kingdom as well as non-resident ambassador of Mongolia to the Republic of South Africa, Ireland and Iceland. He has held various Mongolian government positions from advisor on foreign policy to ambassador to the Republic of Turkey as well as non-resident ambassador to Bulgaria, Lebanon, Romania and Uzbekistan from 1997 to 2003. He served as director general for legal and consular affairs of the foreign ministry from 2003 to 2008 and then as director of the law and treaty department from 2004 to 2008. He received a master's degree in international law from the Moscow Institute of International Relations, a master's degree in political science from the Moscow Institute of Political Science and a PhD in international law from Ukraine's Kiev national Trashavenko University in 2003. Ambassador it's a pleasure and honor to have you join us today and we'll look to you for some opening remarks. Thank you. Thank you and good morning everybody and distinguished guests and ladies and gentlemen. It gives me a great pleasure to welcome you today's forum on Mongolia's diplomacy with two Koreans. My special appreciation goes to our speaker Dr. Batwair for taking his time to be here with us to share his insights and views, expertise on this important subject. On behalf of our embassy I also would like to take this opportunity to express my gratitude to center of strategic international studies in the Global Peace Foundation for the collaboration in the utmost support on organizing this event. Ladies and gentlemen while pursuing a peace loving and open independent and multi pillar forum policy Mongolia actively participates in the addressing the pressing regional and international challenges and the stands for ensuring human rights rule of law and democracy and make every effort to prevail in achieving forum policy goals. It should be noted that since it's a reversible embracement of democracy and free economy more than 20 years ago Mongolia has achieved considerable amount of economic and political success strengthening its international status and position. The identity of Mongolia's forum policy has been based primarily on its geopolitical position especially its landlocked location between the two countries China and Russia. The world in Mongolia itself have transformed dramatically since 1990s making it imperative to revise the first forum policy concept. This was done eventually in February 2011 the Mongolia's second forum policy concept sets the following five priorities for Mongolia's forum policy. First two neighbors giving Mongolia's unique geographic location it is only natural that maintaining friendly and blanched relationship with the two neighbors it remains our top priority. Second third neighbors the second priority is to expand our partnership in line with our third neighbor policy with the countries and groups of countries in the east and west such as the United States, European Union from Asia it is South Korea and Japan. Third it is regional cooperation. The third priority is to further develop bilateral relations and cooperation with other Asian countries. Participate in multilateral cooperation in Asia Pacific region as well as support efforts to strengthen a strategic stability and expand security cooperation in East Asia, North East Asia and Central Asia. Fourth United Nations and other international organizations. The fourth priority is to continue our active cooperation with the United Nations. It's specialized agencies as well as international financial trade and economic organizations and support efforts to increase the role of the United Nations in global governance. The last five developing countries the fifth priority is to strengthen our bilateral relations with developing countries including in the framework of United Nations G77 and non-aligned movement. I would like to elaborate more on the third neighbor policy. The purpose of the third neighbor policy is to maintain Mongolia's national security with support of not only our big neighbors but also other key partners. It is also a policy of parallel development of cooperation with our two big neighbors and other friendly countries. It is a policy that helps us not to be dependent on any particular country or countries. We view that stable and secure North East Asia the current peninsula which is free of nuclear weapon and peaceful dialogue between North Korea and South Korea is the key to the peace security and development of Asia as well as world up wide. Mongolia has friendly relations with all countries in North East Asia and Mongolia strives to concentrate on the issues regional cooperation, integration process in the region. We should work closer together through regionally and other mechanism such as ASEAN, ASEAN and APEC. I would like to say that Mongolia will be host ASEAN Summit 2016. Mongolia shares the imperative to pursue multilateral security cooperation mechanism in North East Asia and East Asia. As you all ever, President Elbidoz proclaimed the importance of launching the Ulaanbaatar Dialogue on North East Asia security and informed about official launch of dialogue to the original countries on March 2013. Within the Ulaanbaatar Dialogue initiative, Mongolia has hosted a series of events focused on North East Asia that aim to promote a confidence building among the regional states such as North East Asian women parliamentary meetings on November 2013 and the Ulaanbaatar Dialogue on the North East Asian security international research conference on June 2014 and North East Asian city mayor forum on August this year respectively took place in our capital city. The ultimate goal of the initiative is to diffuse tensions on the Korean Peninsula and help promote confidence building and peacemaking in North East Asia. Mongolian side proposed to explore the possibility of creating a mechanism for political security dialogue between North East Asian nations. I wish every successes to this today's forum and say thank you very much for your kind attention. Thank you. Thank you Mr. Ambassador for those remarks. Now we'll have a discussion with Dr. Bapair and Ambassador Mark Minton. Let me introduce them. Dr. Bapair has a presentation, a formal PowerPoint presentation that he will deliver after which Ambassador Minton will offer some remarks. Dr. Bapair is the Director General of the Department of Policy Planning and Policy Analysis at the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and Economic Cooperation of Mongolia. He also currently serves as Chairman of the Board of the Mongolian Development Research Center and Research Advisor at the Institute of History at the Mongolian Academy of Sciences. His formal positions include Minister Counselor and Deputy Head of the Mission at the Embassy of Mongolia in Beijing from 2009 to 2013, Director General of the Department of Policy Planning from 2008 to 2009, Counselor at the Embassy of Mongolia to China from 2003 to 2006 and Counselor of the Department of Multilateral Cooperation at the Foreign Ministry from 2002 to 2003. Dr. Bapair is no stranger to Washington. He has spent time at the Woodrow Wilson Center as a visiting fellow and he received his BA in Japanese Studies from the School of Oriental Studies at St. Petersburg University and a PhD in Chinese Studies from the Graduate School of the Institute of Far Eastern Studies in Moscow. And then of course we have Mark Minton who is no stranger to us here at CSIS. Mark Minton, as you all know, is currently President of the Korea Society and prior to that he was he had a distinguished 32-year career as a Senior Foreign Service Officer serving as US Ambassador to Mongolia from 2006 to 2009 and Deputy Chief of Mission to the US Embassy in Seoul. He also served as Country Director for Korea, Deputy Country Director for Japan, as well as other positions at the State Department in various diplomatic posts in Japan, as well as a Pearson fellow with the United States Senate and at the US Mission to the UN. He spent a year as a teaching diplomat in residence at City College of New York and received a BA in Literature from Columbia and an MA in History from Yale University. So we will begin with Dr. Bapair who has come a long way to join us. Thank you so much. And I know you have a PowerPoint presentation. I think you would prefer to use the lecture. Good morning everyone. I would like to thank Chair Professor Victor Cha and my co-opinionist Ambassador Altangerelle, Ambassador Mark Meaton and also I would like to thank CSIS, Brookings and Global Peace Foundation making my visit to Washington DC possible this early December. Now in Mongolia it's getting cold and we have minus 30 during nighttime, minus 15 daytime, but here you have very mild weather. Today you know I would like to share some of my thoughts about Mongolia's policy towards North East Asia, especially towards Korean Peninsula, in particular our relations with DPRK. You know that my remarks would be not reflecting government position. I will today speak rather in my private capacity so please allow me to share openly my thoughts on this topic. So North East Asia is one of most important subregions of the world represented by the intersection of the geopoliticalist interests of all major powers including the United States, China, Russia, Japan and South Korea. Nevertheless, North East Asia we think still lacks multilateral security mechanism in political economic cooperation scheme. Subregion is probably the only one area in Asia Pacific where there is no formal dialogue on security issues despite the fragility of its situation. Indeed it's home to one of the most protected regional disputes. In this regard the peaceful settlement of the Korean Peninsula nuclear issue as well as other regional issues is crucial not only for the region but the entire world community. We think that geographically Mongolia belongs to North East Asia. Therefore whatever happens in this region has direct impact on our security and development. Being a North East Asian country we have been doing sustained efforts to contribute to strengthening its security. As I said earlier while multilateral security cooperation has not been institutionalized in North East Asia yet a number of multilateral efforts already have taken place. One of them of course six party talks. As a matter of fact developed from friendly bilateral relations with all the countries in the region as well as supporting efforts to strengthen strategic stability and to develop security cooperation in North East Asia one of our top priorities under Mongolia's foreign policy and national security concept. So counting for a small number of countries, North East Asia is a complex in the world of Subregion. We think situation in North East Asia remains unstable but Mongolia has an optimistic outlook because the Subregion has a lot of potential for future economic cooperation. Therefore Mongolia supports all initiatives towards regional economic integration in North East Asia. As a North East Asian country with an internationally recognized nuclear weapon free status in proactive foreign policy Mongolia firmly stands for a nuclear weapon free Korean Peninsula and considers it an important prerequisite for durable peace in security in North East Asia. You can see the map that we believe that Mongolia belongs to North East Asia geographically. The Korean Peninsula stability is crucial for maintaining regional peace and security. We firmly believe that Korean Peninsula must be nuclear weapons free. Mongolia which has internationally recognized nuclear weapon free status actively advocates resolving Korean Peninsula's nuclear issue by peaceful means in the framework of six party talks. We stand ready to do whatever is in our capacity to support the early resumption of the six party talks. Mongolia makes every effort to stabilize Korean Peninsula security environment and attaches great importance on hostile building measures and mediation talks based on concern inside needs. Mongolia does not support North Korean missile tests. Mongolia supports denuclearized Korean Peninsula calls upon the DPRK authorities to take no further actions that will worsen the fragile situation. Now let me talk a little bit about Mongolia DPRK bilateral relations. After World War II Mongolia was second country after the Soviet Union to recognize the DPRK. This year 2014 marks the 66th anniversary of diplomatic relations between North Korea and Mongolia. During the Korean War Mongolia is a member of Soviet bloc who dispatched 200, more than 200,000 heads of cattle and many tons of meats closing in the wheat in aid to North Korea. Hundreds of North Korean children were evacuated and raised in a special orphan center in Ulaanbaatar. This has produced a cohort of Mongolian speakers and North Koreans with fond memories and appreciation of Mongolia during the difficult period of Korean War. North Korean leader Kim Il-Sung visited Mongolia for the first time in 1956 during the post-war construction and development books in North Korea. For the second time Kim Il-Sung visited Mongolia in 1988. After the early 1990s when Mongolia embraced democracy and marked economy, we still maintained our close contacts with DPRK throughout the 1990s despite the Soviet clubs in Mongolia's democratic revolution. For a short time DPRK closed its embassy in Ulaanbaatar late 1990s out of concern over closer relations between South Korea and Mongolia but they reopened the embassy in August 2004. Actually Mongolia's policy towards DPRK is characterized by our engagement policy. Mongolia started to re-evaluate its relations with DPRK and to recognize our strategic potential in close relations with DPRK in early 2000. Today contacts between Mongolians and North Koreans are sustained and frequent on an official and also on less formal basis. There are regular exchanges between two government agencies but also exchange between medical doctors, kindergarten staff, sports officials and so on and so on. There are also some North Korean laborers contracted to Mongolian construction and agriculture businesses. Looking forward we think that economic cooperation between the DPRK and Mongolia has untapped potential and can be seen as complementary to each other's economies. Without access to the sea Mongolia is seeking to develop alternative routes for exporting its vast natural resources to the world market. Let me talk a little bit about Mongolia as a neutral ground for dialogue and negotiations. Mongolia hosted Japan-North Korea bilateral talks in September 2007, March in November 2012 and the last round of talks between Japan-North Korea were in March 2014. Mongolia has been repeatedly offering to host six party talks in Ulaanbaatar. We are willing to provide some neutral ground for negotiations in dialogue. Mongolian President Elbeg Dorj, as my ambassador said, became the first head of state visited North Korea since Kim Jong-un came to power in the DPRK. During the Mongolia DPRK business forum that was held on 30th of October 2013 in Pyongyang, President Elbeg Dorj emphasized the business opportunities that exist between the two countries. As Professor Victor Chow mentioned, President Elbeg Dorj visited Kim Il-sung University. On the day he concluded his state visit to the DPRK and delivered a lecture to scholars, professors, and students of the Kim Il-sung University. What are the advantages of Mongolia? What role we can play in the subregion? As you well know, Mongolia enjoys friendly bilateral relationship with every country in North East Asia. We have no disputes with whatever country in North East Asia. Mongolia firmly believes that the peace and stability in the region could be secured only through dialogue. In this regard, we think that it's very important to maintain all possible channels of dialogue with DPRK. Therefore, Mongolia stands ready to continue such efforts in the future. Mongolia with its limited capacity is providing some humanitarian assistance to the DPRK for the last three years. During this year, we had a training camp in Ulaanbaatar. We brought a basketball team from DPRK in April 2013. We delivered humanitarian assistance of 1,850 tons of flour in August 2013. This aid was distributed with direct supervision of concerned international agencies. We also organized summer camp and brought two teachers and 20 children from DPRK to our friendship international children's summer camp in August 2013. Mongolia is considering to provide another round of humanitarian assistance to the DPRK as a part of Mongolia's long-standing engagement policy towards the DPRK. My ambassador, Altengeriel, mentioned that President Elbegdorj put forward the initiative of UB dialogue, Ulaanbaatar dialogue on Nazi security in March 2013. And we have already hosted a number of events within the framework of this initiative. And actually, to every event, we could bring North Korean delegation. So for example, we could bring North Korean women parliamentarians. And they could participate in a roundtable with South Korean women parliamentarians, Russian, Chinese, Mongolian women parliamentarians. They had a dinner together and had cultural events together. So it was very worth gathering of women parliamentarians of North East Asia. We had also North East Asia city mayors forum, which brought dozen city vice mayors of various North Korean cities. And also we had very successful first international track two academic conference on North East Asian security. And we have now here some participants like Dr. Alicia Campi who came to Mongolia in June this year and attended the conference. What is next? This is, I think, a finish of my presentation. You know, Mongolia is ready to continuously host dialogue and bilateral talks between North Korea and interested parties like Japan. We set up International Cooperation Fund in 2013. And within the capacity of this fund, we plan to organize seminars like workshop for North Korean public servants. This year, in 2014, we hosted tourism seminar involving North Korean tourism officials. And next year, we would like to host an economic policy seminar bringing North Korean economic policy planning officials. Mongolia also eager to develop further economic cooperation with DPRK in some mutually agreed areas, especially in agriculture and tourism. North Korea is very much interested in having cooperation with Mongolia in agriculture and also in promoting tourism. On June 2015, Mongolia will host the second annual track two academic conference, UB Dialogue on North Korea's security under the topic of energy infrastructure and regional connectivity. We think Mongolia in future can play a more and more role as a player in energy security of North Asia because we have a vast potential of mineral resources. And we think that also we have ambitious plan to have a solar and wind energy and to have a to build we call it Asian supergrid that we could export solar and wind energy to other North Asian countries. On this note, I would like to finish my PowerPoint presentation and thank you for all of you coming today for this event and sharing your expertise with our panelists. Thank you. Thank you Dr. Bopio for a thorough and very interesting presentation. I'm glad that the next session of the UB Dialogue on Northeast Asian security will be held in June, not in December. Mongolia I think that's wise. Now to offer comments, we have Ambassador Mark Minton. Mark? Well thank you very much Victor and thank you very much for having this event and for inviting myself and distinguished colleagues here to discuss Mongolian Korean relations. I think Dr. Bhattbhaiar did a wonderful job of explaining why Mongolia is important in managing North Korea. Basically all of North Korea's neighbors have a very simple project that they all share and that is to manage North Korea. And I think Dr. Bhattbhaiar's talk demonstrated very well why Mongolia is a part of that. Mongolia's position, many initiatives it's taken towards North Korea are completely compatible as far as I can see. I don't speak for the South Korean government but are completely compatible with the Park administration's trust politic policy of outreach to North Korea while at the same time being very clear about the denuclearization of North Korea as an absolutely necessary policy objective. So I think that's been well established. I'd like to just say a few words about the other half of the equation. Why it makes a good sense for Mongolia and the Republic of Korea to be partners. That's I think a basic question why here Mongolia and Korea at all in a discussion and I think there's some very basic considerations which it might be useful to inventory very briefly. There's history, there's language, there's culture, ethnicity, the internal political situation in both countries, the economic complementarity of the two countries and many common features they share in their strategic position in Northeast Asia. I'd just like to enumerate some of this. Excuse me if some of this is well known to you. I won't belabor any of these topics but I think everyone knows that at the time of the forming of the Mongol Empire it included briefly Korea. The Mongolian and Korean languages are the same language family. I think almost everyone in this room probably knows that. If some of you have actually tried to study both of these very difficult languages you'll know that the underlying grammar is very similar although the phonology is quite different but that points to a certain amount of cultural identity between the two cultures and the two societies. I think that goes back a long way. It's fairly clear from anthropological studies that the two populations derived from inner Asia in the in the same way. That's why their languages are similar. This is also I think demonstrated by such unknown generally unknown facts is the Mongolian blue dot which Mongolian babies have at the base of their spine and probably most Korean babies also have this dot at birth at the base of their spine. But more importantly and to bring the picture up to date the two countries are both democracies although they came by democracy and democratic practices and institutions in very different ways. They both have truly functioning successful democracies in which power has been passed several times between really quite strong political opponents who contest elections ferociously but when one party wins an election power is generally is peacefully passed to the other party and this occurred several times in Mongolia and of course in Korea and I think it's well worth reflecting on the fact that that is really a major reason for a relationship between the two countries because from Korea all the way to Eastern Europe through the great expanse of Central Asia and yes I am excluding Russia. There there are no other really truly functioning democracies. Korea Mongolia that's it until you get to Eastern Europe. I don't think you could really claim that any of the stands or Central Asia have democracies but these two countries do and so in different ways and at sort of different levels of development they they symbolize something that is very important to the United States that a community of democracies is just not a name or label that's hung out in international meetings. It really means something and I think all democracies have a stake in the success of Mongolian democracy. This is why in recent years and it's been a fairly recent phenomenon in the last five six years the EU as an institution has become vastly more active in Mongolia in terms of aid and technical advice and institutional advice and such as anti-corruption efforts and the United States as you undoubtedly know is very active in these ways in Mongolia also. They the two countries as I said share a lot of practical things in common. Korea particularly Seoul is the number one destination overseas for Mongolians who go abroad and work. There are about 30 the number changes all the time but last time I was aware of the number and had had looked at it carefully there are about 32,000 Mongolians which is a huge number for Mongolia's population 32,000 Mongolians who are working and or welcome in the Republic of Korea many of them are in eastern Seoul where you can see Mongolian signage and restaurants and all the rest of it. There are also about 3,000 to 4,000 Korean citizens who are longtime residents of Mongolia and an interesting aspect of this most foreigners in Mongolia are officials, aid workers, sort of you know code and tie type of folks but in the case of the Koreans there are a lot of small business people actually active just folks you might say in in Mongolia and of course there are also Korean missionaries in Mongolia. Korea is Republic of Korea is one of the world's leading Christian missionary countries now and there's activity of that sort in Mongolia also. Korean universities quite involved with Mongolia and education. Donggeek University has Mongolian program and some other universities are doing virtual online training in Mongolia quite aggressively Korean universities. Korean Airlines I know this because the chairman Korean Airlines told me this himself. Chairman Cho has made a large investment in his in Mongolian aviation Korean Airlines flies practically every day of the week to Mongolia and has helped Mongolia's aviation with a lot of technical advice from Korean Airlines. Economically the the two countries have a certain complementarity. Mongolia as many of you know is has the prospect if it's handled well of becoming a very well-to-do country it's a very high per capita income because of its impressive natural resources some of the largest deposits of copper, gold, uranium, coal and of course Republic of Korea is a resource poor country. There's been a marked interest on the part of Korean business in the development of Mongolian resources. There have been problems because the development of Mongolian resources has been troubled by the still young political system and getting the rules right and passing the legislation will allow for the right kind of investment by foreigners in the development of Mongolian resources. There have been several goes at this and the rules have been suspended and revised and all that sort of thing but Mongolia's resources are of interest to Korea and I think probably when this works out in the long run that there will be significant Korean investment in the development of Mongolian resources of course with the with an eye to bringing some of those not only investment but bringing some of those resources to Korea. Korea is Mongolia's for a long time is a large aid giver to Mongolia it's about number four among countries providing aid to Mongolia. The EU as I mentioned before is coming up fast but Korea is a significant contributor of aid to Mongolia and as I said is is interested in developing resources there. Diplomatically as was mentioned by the by Ambassador Alton Garrell and also by Dr. Buttbuyer Mongolia has a strong interest in diversifying not only its economic partners but its diplomatic partners and this is institutionalized under their third neighbor policy in which there has been a really aggressive effort by Mongolian diplomats and political leaders to reach out to the very countries that were meant mentioned by Dr. Buttbuyer and since I'm no longer a government official I can be a look I guess I'm not allowed to be indiscreet but I can be less discreet than a government official usually is. This is to balance the overwhelming influence of particularly China but also Russia in Mongolian affairs this third neighbor policy has some real meat to it and Korea has been involved in some of this effort to build this this third neighbor policy. For instance mostly in cooperation with the United States which sends a large number of military advisors to Mongolia every summer there is a major military exercise in in Mongolia every summer called conquest and basically this is to train UN peacekeepers and of course Mongolia has a large role in UN peacekeeping and not only sent peacekeepers to Iraq and Afghanistan there are Mongolian peacekeepers in Africa and in the Balkans they're all over the place and Mongolians have died in in UN peacekeeping operations. I remember one American general who had a direct experience of seeing Mongolian peacekeepers in action in difficult situations in Africa protecting other peacekeepers said the thing I really appreciate about Mongolian peacekeepers is at least they fight so I guess many peacekeepers don't apparently so they're very valuable and play a valuable role in international peacekeeping at any rate. The conquest exercise brings to be together peacekeepers from many nations as I said Pekong American Pacific Command is there in force usually the commander comes out for conquest and India sends its peacekeepers there Indonesia Philippines many other countries Fijians are well-represented but for years quite frankly if I may speak candidly during the Nomuhyeon years of the presidency and in South Korea the South Koreans would not send South Korean peacekeepers to conquest when E. Myeongbok became president of South Korea Korea started sending their soldiers to participate and this is was not only important to the effort but it was very important symbolically and was and I was ambassador in this period of time it was interesting the the Chinese and the Russians were reluctant to send observers to conquest they were always invited when the Koreans showed up both the Chinese Chinese general and a Russian general showed up and took the invitation to be an observer of conquest because they figured they just had to watch what was going on at this point but this is this is kind of down in the weeds but it gives you some flavor of the mechanics of the relationship between Korea and Mongolia and how working together or working with each other it can be valuable to both sides what Mongolia has been able to do and what it it may be able to do in the future with the North Korean problem has been well documented by Dr. Batbayer I'd just like to mention one very other one other very important contribution the Republic of Korea derives from Mongolia's cooperation and it isn't usually publicized and neither side publicize it Mongolia is one of the major transit countries for North Korean refugees who managed to make it out of North Korea now these refugees of course get into China first where if the Chinese authorities find them they're arrested sent back to the gulag but if they make it to the Mongolian border there's a fairly well-developed system by which they are picked up and brought to very good facilities from which they are repatriated usually to South Korea although a few of them have actually come to the United States too this is a very important contribution that is very much appreciated in the Republic of Korea that the Mongolians have engaged in very very quietly and without wanting much publicity but I think it's worth noting and that's another very good reason for the partnership but the last point I would like to make is sort of more theoretical and sort of is in a larger context as I said both Mongolia and the Republic of Korea share a certain kind of common strategic position and what I mean by that I alluded to the fact they're both democracies before so they both have an interest in promoting democracy and and being part of some kind of community of democracies in Asia they both have an interest in that they both are to some extent although there's a difference in degree I admit they both are small to middle-sized countries by population by economy all the rest of it in Asia surrounded by giants really and the Koreans as many of you know actually have a phrase for this they they call themselves the shrimp among whales well I don't think the Mongolians are sort of the same thing but I think in landlocked Mongolia we can't talk about shrimp and whales yet talk about camels and wolverines or something but at any rate they stand in the same position and interestingly both of these countries derive a lot of problems but I would suggest a certain amount of leverage from being what I would call pivot or hinge countries and what I mean by being pivot or hinge countries are both stand historically and in fact today between two larger countries at least two sometimes three and they have all sorts of problems because of that's where they are geographically that they have to deal with and the two countries have this in common of course Korea the Korean Peninsula stands between Japan and China and that's a very difficult position to be in the United States is Korea's largest security political partner and stands as a major relationship for the Republic of Korea but you know paradoxically also for North Korea the North Koreans are always concerned about where the United States is these of the Peninsula politics because they have to be and then there's China on the other side which has now become Korea's largest trading partner used to be the United States 15 years ago now it's China we're number four now Korea's trading partner China is also really Mongolia's largest trading partner becoming if it not in fact is largest trading partner partner at this point so China is coming on strong and being very very direct about its interest in the neighborhood and Mongolia is caught between Russia and China and the Korean Peninsula is between Japan and China and the Koreans now have very poor relations with the Japanese not maybe private sector but at the official level so these are these are tremendous problems for Korean diplomacy and for Mongolian diplomacy both countries have an interest in having good relations with all of their neighbors even ones from from whom they're feeling tremendous pressure and they also have a very strong interest in having as much strategic leverage and breathing room as they could possibly design so that's why both Korea and Mongolia are interested in diplomatic outreach they want to have other partners they want to have some traction in regional affairs and in global affairs that allows them to escape the rather vice-like dynamic of just existing and having diplomatic space between two powerful neighbors Koreans have done this in many sophisticated ways they've tried to become an international aid giver they've taken a large role in international diplomacy they become active in peacekeeping of course there's a Korean secretary general of the United Nations Mongolians have their third neighbor policy they've also engaged in peacekeeping and are doing more in this area where does this go from here I would submit that both countries Mongolia's role with North Korea is important but it's limited what Mongolia can do alone by itself with North Korea is extremely useful and valuable to the Republic of Korea but it's one of the participants and it's limited but both countries could benefit by strengthening multilateral institutions in Asia and Northeast Asia and taking a prominent role in those multilateral institutions both countries are trying to do this the Dr. Badbair mentioned the Ulaanbaatar dialogue on Northeast Asian security this is Mongolia's attempt to create a multilateral forum in which Mongolia would have a role and would therefore gain more diplomatic room for maneuver likewise that is what Mongolia in my view Mongolia's role in the six-party talks is about of course Mongolia would like to promote stability and peace on the Korean Peninsula but it's also an opportunity for Mongolia to shore up its own diplomatic interest by obtaining a role in multilateral regional institutions and I think more work in this direction would definitely serve both countries interests the the PAK administration in Seoul has initiative very much like the Ulaanbaatar dialogue which he has put on the table it's called the Northeast Asia peace and cooperation initiative and it's trying to do many of the same things and it's invited Mongolia to be one of the partners along with North Korea and China and Japan and well I don't know if they've invited Japan but they have the United States to engage in this multilateral forum again on the part of the Korean Koreans this is an attempt to create a multilateral forum to get at the North Korea problem another way to manage North Korea but it's also an attempt by the South Koreans to gain a more prominent regional role between an activist Japan and activist United States and an activist China and to create some space of its own they've involved invited Mongolia to participate in that I would argue that both of these initiatives should be pursued by the two countries that have suggested them but in cooperation with each other as well Korea could do a lot of other useful things it is kind of scandalous that Mongolia is not an APEC the reason it's not an APEC is because APEC like most international organizations that is becoming slightly geriatric and cannot agree on how to take in new members because of an internal quarrel so Mongolia and several other people are waiting are waiting at the door for this to be settled but Xi Jinping on a recent visit to Mongolia endorsed Mongolia's entry into APEC it's not now a member of APEC but endorsed Mongolia becoming a member of APEC and said that China would work for that it would be a good idea for the Republic of Korea to become an outspoken advocate of this as well because as I said both of these countries stand differently but in the largest sense in the same kind of strategic dilemma between larger powers and they both have an interest in seeing what is so much in absence in Northeast Asia multilateral institutions working on regional stability economic interaction and transnational problems like the environment both of these countries have a reason to promote this kind of diplomacy in the region not only for the issues that will be addressed but also for their own national interest in the larger sense that I've just tried to indicate well I think I'll stop there thanks mark thanks that was very useful there there was a lot of things there that I did not know so thank you very much so we have some some time for a discussion with the audience and we have two folks with mites in the back that can get them to you if you could just please identify yourself and then ask your question so yes sir thank you listening to very illustrious presentation on Mongolian perspective I came to think that maybe it can generate some answers to a problem that all Korea Peninsula interested parties are troubled with one is the United Nations has passed human rights you know resolution on violation of that in North Korea at a time when six party talks now has been suspended at a time when we also need reconciliation and dialogue and so on how the human rights condition is very important that's one of the reasons why many South Koreans including me want the Korea to be united but if we press that little too hard then it will only harden North Korea's position it may even help support the regime so how do you keep the human rights concern alive without having it undermined other initiatives we must also pursue in our quest for unification Mongolia given its very unique position in relations with both Korea may I hope have some answers to and some advice on this this if there are other questions I would ask I may ask another question later but I try to be fair yes this is very important question I think you know that we had DPRK high-ranking visitor I think in August of September this year in Ulaanbaatar he had tour of Europe and on his way back he stopped over in Ulaanbaatar and as we understood that his mission was to lobby European countries for on this human rights problem so it's I think a very important issue in Mongolia is also concerned with a problem and we start and receives UN United Nations Special Committee report on this issue and as I recall I think Mongolia is up stand United Nations bottom if I am right but I have to check it so reason is that you know that as I said Mongolia of course don't want to close our eyes to what's happening in the DPRK but being a country which has traditionally friendly relations with DPRK we feel that we do whatever possible to engage them not to isolate them so this is a basic basic policy but of course is Ambassador Minton said Mongolia is in a very delicate position we feeling pressure from major powers also same time we would like to have proactive foreign policy not to see idle to do something positive to strengths and security and stability in North East Asia so it's really a strategic dilemma is ambassador mentioned thank you Mark I just say one thing about that I think it's I don't think it's necessary to create a dichotomy here we we want to talk to North Korea about its nuclear weapons and its missiles and and its its behavior on the peninsula that is threatening so in order to do that we can't talk about human rights at all because they'll get upset I think that's a false dichotomy president pock visited the UN about two months ago and some of us there was a small group of think tank NGO types that met with her and Korea society was among the people that met with her and I asked her that very question you know is there a dichotomy she said no she pointed out an extraordinary thing has happened I don't want I shouldn't be you know speaking for the Korean president so I'll just move back to my view of it I share I agree with her the extraordinary thing has happened when we were doing the six-party talks or the four-party talks before that the North Koreans you know if you mentioned human rights they would leave the room or refuse to talk about it now they they feel obliged to talk about it what what you're talking about is the visit of Konksuk Jew one of their highest ranking international foreign handlers who the regime felt moved to send on a largely fruitless and futile trip around the globe including Mongolia to explain why why the the human rights action in the UN was so unfair and got it all wrong the the Korean ambassador to the UN is also this is an unusual event showed up at the Council of Foreign Relations also to talk about human rights and to push back against the resolution and the action in the UN so what has happened here even though you know they're being truculent and and and bristly and you know complaining and groaning and and and giving false testimony and all the rest of it they have been forced and have accepted that they need to respond to these charges that's that's a very positive thing they used to refuse to talk about it so I would say there's there's no contradiction between continuing to talk about human rights and pursuing our other foreign policy objectives with the North Koreans and if we can expand the dialogue with the North Koreans to include human rights and a lot of other things that's a positive for managing and dealing with the North Koreans and God knows we've we've hit a dead end just talking about you know nuclear weapons now depending on who you are you will have a different kind of dialogue our conversation with the North Koreans and I fully understand that the and would expect that the Mongolians would have a very circumspect discussion about human rights but it's there's evidence on the table that Mongolia is willing to talk about difficult things directly to the North Koreans and I don't know any international leader or figure who has talked more directly about things they do not want to talk about to the North Koreans than President Elbig Dorje in his his public remarks at Kim Il Sung University so I think the Mongolians are doing a good job I would just add that the for the longest time that was the policy which was to separate the two and and it got us nowhere on the nuclear issue or on the human rights issue and so as we all know because of the COI report this started a different a different path on the North Korean human rights issue where I would agree with Mark they've been forced to engage now in a way that they never had to before they were given a free pass on this before and so we don't know where this will all lead but at least the initial indications you know whether it was Kang Seok-joo going to to Europe or it was the Foreign Minister going to Russia I mean they're really they're really being forced to engage on this in a way that they haven't before and who knows in the future you know maybe they will engage in a dialogue in it on something like this and if they did they would probably want to do it in as neutral a place as possible and Mongolia might be a neutral place in that sense very small very small shortly I would like to add and first please take all my answers in the remarks in my private capacity because the issue is you know it is a little sensitive and delicate and I I cannot answer is ambassador of Mongolia to this country so all my views in the remarks it is a is a private view so Mongolia first time participated in the debates of the report of United Nations first time this year so we extend it is why because extension during the war on the Kim right in North Korea because we don't want our door our corridor which we have with this country and that's why you know we extend and I don't know once we participated first time in this debate maybe in the future we will participate because once we participated it isn't you know there is a no reason not to stop you know so our position is at least now clear it is abstention thank you ambassador thank you Gil Rosman up front here Gil Rosman formerly Princeton University now the ASEAN forum is nice to see you again dr. but by our I have a question about the economic plans for going through Rasone or Zarubino the Mongolia comes up fairly often in discussions of Russia's new efforts to build up these economic ties independent of the pressure being put on North Korea is China meanwhile is putting more pressure on North Korea how does Mongolia deal with these economic arrangements when China and Russia are disagreeing and is Russia seeking Mongolia's cooperation in this effort to build up the export industries which South Korea also has been showing some interest in okay thank you first announcement yes you know as I mentioned during president Elbido's meeting there was a business forum in Pyong and actually president brought with him some Mongolian companies which are interested in business ties with DPRK and as I said DPRK is very much interested in agriculture you know they have they want to develop a livestock farming and they have I think it's called sepu area which is in mountainous area sepu which is climate is similar to Mongolia's climate and they want to bring some cattle from Mongolia and raise cattle farming in DPRK so this was a project which DPRK was very much interested in another project you know they were talking about tourism promotion you know DPRK is you know that it has beautiful landscape and beautiful mountains and right now I think the Chinese tourists are going to DPRK in more and more numbers but they want to build up some tourist tourism facilities tourist camps and especially in during winter time so they want to learn from Mongolia how to develop tourism especially during winter during cold times so so this is also one area in other area is professor Rosen mentioned they want to develop seaports I think you know that right now Russia is very active they working on this special zone Rajin Sombong and I think they invested some money it already built some port area for future Russian shipment and when our business delegation was in North Korea they brought our delegation to this Rajin Sombong area I think they showed up what is now right now the condition in which port in which amount of investments they need so they did the presentation on their seaports condition and they want Mongolia along with Russia also to invest in participate in modernization of seaports but you know that of course right now timing is not so favorable time but in future of course Mongolia would be interested because we are landlocked right now we use mostly Chinese ports we had to use a tangent port but during August visit of President Xi Jinping Chinese offered eight more additional ports to Mongolia to export our minerals and other goods to Asia Pacific countries like Japan Korea and other countries so we will be much interested in having additional outlet to the sea but of course it depends on certain political circumstances which cannot foresee right now thank you hi thank you again Cathy Moon from Brookings we had the pleasure of hosting Dr. Bopar yesterday in a small meeting and it was very informative I have a comment on the human rights issue and a question on the human rights I think it's misleading for people to believe that the human rights pressures have made the North Koreans respond with active diplomacy and diversified diplomatic efforts I think it's the other way around and I'm actually working on a writing writing a piece on this so I'll let you know if it's when it's finished but the fact is the North Koreans had established diplomatic relations with many countries including Mongolia and of course with the EU countries for over a decade now if it's about at least a 10-year period that it has had a much more diverse diplomatic scope experience and I think it's that experience and built up confidence that has that had allowed the North Koreans to actually enter the international stage including the UN sit on panels publicly go to the council on farm relations and go to the EU go to Japan or reach out to Japan go to South Korea during the Incheon games and try their hand at diplomatic initiatives rather than the more menacing threatening activities so I think we need to be careful not to give one issue area too much weight because the North Koreans are learning how to do different types of diplomacy and with different issue areas and it's important for us to be able to distinguish you know what they're doing on which issue areas and why and what the the reasons are my question for our Mongolian diplomats is it regards a Mongolia's role in North South relations and especially in terms of people want to open up North Korea in various ways some people more forcefully and Mongolians are doing it in a more gentle consistent persistent way not beating them over the heads my question is in addition to the infrastructure building in addition to the business and other ventures to what extent does Mongolia assist in capacity building on basic issues requirements of international activity such as knowledge of international business law basic information regarding international economic institutions I ask this because North Koreans when they meet with NGOs from the US or Canada or Europe they often plead beg for help on international business law property rights law various types of skills that would enable them to try to build up a better understanding of how to engage the world in a more productive way so I'm wondering can Mongolia does Mongolia play that role can Mongolia play that kind of role since you know as we know that North Koreans trust Mongolians probably more than any other country and they reach it great question thank you doctor moon yes you know Mongolia as I said we set up international cooperation fund which the primary type is emerging democracies like Central Asia, Kyrgyz Republic and Myanmar and also Afghanistan but we also target DPRK of course DPRK is not yet emerging democracy but we we we want to help DPRK to learn more about market economy, international economic rules, norms and legal environment so that's why you know we are in various talks with our southern neighbors you know with some European countries together design and have a seminar on economic issues in Olambatar so we are in talks with DPRK we already invited them to send 20 or 25 people who are working in DPRK various government agencies dealing with foreign investors or international economic issues to come to Mongolia and we would like to have a seminar on introducing our experience how we could build up investment environment to bring foreign direct investment into Mongolia so of course it's a small step it's but still we believe that by doing these kind of seminars and workshops we can bring some knowledge into North Korean government about international legal environment and some other soft things. I think we can take one more question. Thank you my name is Yongjun Kim from Global Peace Foundation. I think that one of the significant contribution of Mongolia to stabilize Korean Peninsula is that offering alternative solution to the North Korean leaders because of the international pressure or their regime is you know really malfunctioning in broken economies and everything and because Mongolia made a successful and peaceful transition from communist nation to democratic and free market nation and also the president of the speech last year at the University is I think very historical efforts to give that kind of option to the North Korean leaders so I want to know is there any other engagement in terms of that perspective to help the North Korean leaders to see a different option than using going to a very extreme you know solution is there any progress or development. I just would like to say we have one project with North Korea personally I like this project very much because we signed in 2004 to my mind agreement on lever forces on workers so according to this agreement we are taking according to this agreement we can take every year for thousands up to a thousand workers from North Korea but now we are taking I already talked with doctor but we are taking every year 2000 workers from North Korea to Mongolia mostly in textile textile industries and also into agriculture I like this project why they have five days workers like Mongolian workers they have weekend we are organizing also some picnic during the weekend together with Mongolian workers to countryside they have TV in every room and they have wonderful opportunity to watch South Korean TV channels because Mongolia is the reason I think six eight South Korean TV channels but we want that the workers will stay two years and so on but they are insisting only one year but it's enough also one year is enough they are using good enough information and good opportunity and so on this project I think personally I like this project every year we are using now 2000 but accordingly to the agreement it is up to 4,000 Mongolian government they really very interested to take now as a workers in the field mining because we are taking many workers during the especially summertime workers from China so we really wanted to some South Korean North Korean workers in the mining field in these cases of course we can increase the number up to 4,000 so this project it is really you know very nice project I think there's an important point there I you know after the fall of the Soviet Union a lot of Russians told American counterparts that that actually one of the you know they didn't talk about it publicly at the time but one of the things that really started affecting their thinking about their own system was the exposure that they had to through exchanges and and various opportunities to travel to the West for short periods of time you know what they learned from Western colleagues in the counterparts and and brief exposure so you know maybe soft power just takes longer than hard power to work its effects but it does have a profound effect the fact is that very few countries are in a position or willing to really apply soft power to North Korea I mean just it's like a armadillo or something you know it's nothing soft there's no way to approach it softly but Mongolia you know is one of the few countries that can actually do that so who knows you know North Korea is a black box but it certainly can't hurt that at least one country and it may come to almost just one country it just happens to be a democracy and happens to have an open society where you can see for instance South Korean movies and TV which are very popular there that one country like that is a country that some North Koreans get to visit and and engage with and and all the all the ways that North Korea is being managed and all the levers and polies and everything that are pulling and tugging and trying to trying to maneuver that country into more reasonable international position more reasonable society who knows this this may have some indirect effect so in that sense I mean I don't think the leadership of of North Korea is going to say you know oh my god look at the Mongolian model why didn't we think of that before for our own reform they're not going to do that but you know I think the people that do are exposed to the outside world including in Mongolia may start thinking thoughts that the leadership can't control eventually and that may have a positive impact so I think it's important work well on behalf of CSS and Global Peace Foundation I want to thank our panelists for really a fascinating discussion about Mongolia and the two Koreas thank you all for coming I'm sorry that we're out of time