 I've actually studied how big societal transformation happens. And when in order to have big transitions, the theory is the academic theory is that you need disruptions and disruptions at multiple levels. So you need the status quo to be disrupted, which is where we are right now, I think because of the pandemic as well as some other factors, but our day-to-day normal has been definitely disrupted and I think everyone can feel that. Then you need some macro-level disruptions that could be the climate crisis. We're seeing more frequent and intense climate disruptions of all kinds and the implications of that. And then at the same time, you need local level innovative niche experimentation at grassroots activism. And I see that as well. So I am optimistic about a restructuring and a transformation of society. I know it may seem naive, given what's going on, but I think there are enough of us who are committed and passionate and creative and innovative and we are networked and we can be increasingly networked with each other and support each other. Professor Jenny C. Stevens is my guest on this episode of Inside Ideas, brought to you by 1.5 Media and Innovators Magazine. Jenny is the director of the School of Public Policy and Urban Affairs and the Dean's Professor of Sustainability, Science, and Policy at Northeastern University in Boston, Massachusetts. She is also the director for Strategic Research Collaboration at Northeast University's Global Resilience Institute and is affiliated with the Women's Gender and Sexuality Studies Program, the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering, and the Department of Cultures, Societies, and Global Studies. Her research, teaching, and community engagements focus on integrating social justice, feminist, and anti-racist perspectives into climate and energy resilience, social and political aspects of the renewable energy transition, reducing reliance on fossil fuels, energy democracy, gender and energy and climate, and climate and energy justice. Her unique transdisciplinary approach integrates innovation in social science and public policy with the science and engineering to promote social justice, reduce inequalities, and redistribute power, electrical power, economic power, and political power. In her book, diversifying power, why we need anti-racist feminist leadership on climate and energy published by Island Press this year in 2020. She argues that effectively addressing climate change requires diversifying leadership, redistributing wealth, and power and moving beyond mainstream, male dominated, technocratic solutions to climate change. Throughout her career, she has explored institutional and cultural innovation in the energy sector and technological optimism as well as the usability of climate science and climate resilience efforts. She is definitely a professor, has a long career written many books and publications, and in 2015, 2016, Leopold Leadership Fellow and her book Smart Grid Re-Evolution Electric Power Struggles by Cambridge University Press, which is very well recognized, explores social and cultural debates about energy systems change, co-authored with Wilson and Peterson. Before coming to Northeast Eastern, Professor Stevens was on the faculty at the University of Vermont and Clark University. She did a post-doctoral at Harvard's Kennedy School, and she has taught at Tufts Boston University at MIT. She earned her PhD at the California Institute of Technology in Environmental Science and Engineering and her BA at Harvard University in Environmental Science and Policies. Thank you so much for being on the show, Ginny. It's great to be here, Mark. Thank you for having me. It's wonderful to have you, and I'm not going to apologize one bit for your long bio because I know I could have had it be so much longer. You've been doing this for quite some time and doing amazing work. Just for my listeners, we are past kind of cross digitally, virtually, through the United Nations Sustainable Development Solutions Network. Professor Sacks and many other greats are kind of heading that organization for the United Nations and kind of teaching around sustainability and SDG Academy. I saw a wonderful post about your book and I've been following you in other ways and it was so nice that you're able to be on the show. No, it's great to be here. Yeah. I'm going to jump right into it with our first question. So because you have this long history, you have this wonderful bio, you're doing things in environment and climate and energy and renewables and also in tons and leadership. One thing that really resonates with me in my heart is Resilience Institute as well. So I have a company called the Alohas Resilience Foundation and do a lot with Resilience Thinking in 2019 started with the United Nations, a new project called Resilience Frontiers, which is the next step beyond the Sustainable Development Goals that could possibly be the roadmap or plan to 2050. And so I really like that we're getting the discussion on resilience and that multifaceted discipline and kind of having discussions on that. But with all this academics and action and experience that you have has helped you weather the pandemic and all this crazy, I have to say, shit that's been going on in our world just where we're sometimes we're just thinking we're going to hair out our hair and what's going on is this reality or not. And so I just want to know, has any of that helped you to weather this pandemic and come through it better? So you're back, it froze up for a minute. Yeah, you froze up for me. I don't know which one of us was. So yes, thank you. I think one of the things that so I've been working on climate and energy and sustainability my whole career. So the past 20, 25 years or so. And my training is, as you mentioned, is in originally in the science and engineering with a very kind of technical lens. And what I've found over the years is that we have been, you know, investing too much and putting too much emphasis on the technological innovation and not as much on the social innovation, right? And the technology is essential and we need that. But what happens is that we've lost sight of the importance for understanding how our organizations work, how we're incentivized to do different things and what choices we have in our lifestyles, and thinking about the social science, social innovation, social change aspects. And when we don't look at the social change aspects, we're actually also missing the social justice implications of our technologies and our policies. And so that's kind of my own kind of frustration with how the climate experts have been talking kind of mainstream about climate change has been that not connecting it with all kinds of issues that people wake up every day worrying about, like jobs and food and health and education and transportation and housing, right? So, but you asked about the pandemic and this moment we're in, you know, we are in the intersecting crises that we're experiencing right now are really revealing the ineffectiveness of our policies and our leadership, right? And it's across the board. We have here in the United States, we've had leadership not only denying the climate crisis, but denying the risks of the pandemic, denying that we have an economic crisis, denying that we actually had a healthcare crisis before the pandemic in terms of access to health care. We have a housing crisis in the United States and in other parts of the world, too. And we have, you know, just so many intersecting crises that require us to reevaluate and restructure because our systems have not been working for so many people. And that is being revealed right now. So I do have optimism in that there are so many creative, inspiring people and organizations around the world doing work that is building toward transformation. And it is in times of disruption, like we're in right now, when opportunities for larger transformation are evolve and emerge. And I think, and that's where my optimism and my commitment and passion for elevating these ideas now in these moments of disruption. So you nicely gave us kind of this bigger picture of what's going on now and what we're seeing and the optimism that you have. I want to poke and prod and drill a little bit deeper into your personal story first, if you don't mind. As all that experience helped you to already build the sustainable infrastructure resources to weather the time with that knowledge experience, what you're working on, what you're writing on. And then also I imagine because your book launched during all this craziness, right? So not only was it timely, but launch a book where everybody's in lockdown and there's not a lot of doors or whatever going on. It's a little bit difficult. I've had this come up with other people on the show that have also launched their book this year. They're like, oh, it's a little bit different than normal, you know, those who have had books before. So I kind of want to get just a little more insight on what you've experienced. And the reason why, and I'm leading you is obviously because once you've got your infrastructure, your kind of resilience built up or you've been doing this and you've applied it into your own life, then it's a lot easier to spread that. And for me, also speaking and doing environment and energy and things over the years, what I've seen is that during this time, the awareness, shift in awareness, the shift in action and movement, a lot more people approaching my projects have tripled. And so I'd also like to see for you if you have a similar experience. Yeah, no, thank you. So in terms of my personal experience during the pandemic and, you know, I'm a professor in a large university, I'm a tenured professor. So I feel a privilege and a responsibility to be speaking up and speaking out and speaking, you know, truth to power and not being complacent. I think too many of us have become complacent because it's really hard to call out some of the structural issues that we also benefit from, right? Particularly in terms of, I mean, this across the board with when you think about structural racism, when you think about the climate crisis, you know, some of us are in positions where we are doing okay, right? Or have done well and have been able to navigate and our own privilege has allowed that. So I really, where I am now in my career, I'm at a different place in terms of proving myself academically, right? And so this book that I wrote is a non-academic book. It's a call to action. It's actually quite a radical book in a sense. And it integrates some of my research and my own life experience. But it's really elevating the stories of these inspiring creative leaders that are tackling and engaging on climate and energy issues in creative and innovative ways. With regard to the timing of the book, I started writing this book last summer and I had a plan to finish around February. And I pretty much met that deadline and submitted the manuscript at the end of February, beginning of March, right when it was becoming clear that we are now entering into this pandemic. And I was able, I was fortunate, the timing worked out to some degree in that I had one more chance to review the manuscript in late March, early April. So I was able to reread knowing that we are now in a pandemic and actually integrating some examples of leadership that we've already seen in the pandemic. For example, the women leaders in the countries that are several countries that have run by women have been the most effective in managing the pandemic. So I was able to add in some examples like that and again, I felt that timing was helpful in that the book, the same structure of the book and all the same messages of the book held true before the pandemic, but being able to systematically and make sure that the pandemic was mentioned throughout the book actually makes it a lot more resonate with people because it acknowledges, you know, we are in this place where pre-pandemic versus post-pandemic, I mean during the pandemic, it's very different like stark realities, right? And so that was helpful. One of the other things in terms of, yeah, the book was officially published in September in the United States and just in November, just this earlier this last week in the rest of the world. And I have, you mentioned, you know, the constraints in terms of travel and all of that, which is true. And the flip side is that I've been able to, you know, virtually travel to Hong Kong, California, Indiana, you know, Yes, I've seen you all over, I've seen you all over the internet and on videos, but also on podcasts, so that's fabulous. Yeah, so the virtual space, you know, is in some ways more efficient in terms of I don't have to get on a plane and go to all these places in person. I mean, obviously you miss the connection and the informal communication that's associated with meeting people in person and or signing books or anything like that. But again, at the same time, you know, there's new ways that we're all adapting and innovating in terms of communicating with each other and, yeah, changing some of those expectations. And in some ways, things are more accessible, right? If you have an internet connection, people can join all kinds of things. And so that's been an interesting part of what I've been doing in the past couple of weeks and months. Yeah, that's fabulous. I'm sure there's probably some more digital formats and media that you've developed. You know, I've seen a couple of your videos where you've presented the book in a kind of a slide presentation format, which has made it even more visual. I really, the chapter you were speaking about, I believe, was chapter four, Health, Well-Being, and Nutritious Food for All, where you really touched a little bit more about the COVID. You kind of went into health and things a little bit and there's probably a couple other little places that you mentioned that as well, as far as the pandemic is what you're discussing. So that was, that was a nice, very timely book. And then you just have the most wonderful publisher, you know, Island Press is very much in our topics and kind of around these supporting and super, and I've exchanged some emails with them as well. And so supportive, so helpful. I think you just, it hasn't affected you at all. You are ready to pivot and have had everything there that really went good. And I really want to say, well, I hope and congratulate you, since you're in the U.S. and Boston, of the hopeful outcome of Biden-Harris, but more so, wow, Kamala Harris. And this kind of goes to my question as well. Is she part of the Gross Squad? Because that is a powerhouse right there. I'm so happy about that. Absolutely. So, you know, having the first black woman on the ticket and the first woman in the White House is huge. And I think, you know, some of the media in the United States has actually downplayed the significance of this. And I think it's just really inspiring and offers a lot of optimism and hope for opening up doors for so many people who have been historically excluded for so long. So, yes, there's a lot of optimism with Kamala Harris. And also, I mean, with the Biden administration in general, because there's really hope that this administration will, is in a moment where all of these, I mean, as I mentioned, the intersecting crises, but then the multiracial, multigenerational coalitions of activism and advocacy that has really emerged in the past couple of years as a powerful force in the United States and in other parts of the world, too. But in particular, the mobilization of the youth, in particular, in the United States with the Sunrise Movement. And I mentioned in the book also Arshani Prakash, who's a co-founder and executive director of the Sunrise Movement, which is an organization that has really just catalyzed and mobilized young people and so many young people look to the future and are really not, are really concerned not only about the climate crisis, but about job prospects for the future, the way the world has been going. It's been really hard. And I have two daughters myself who are 19 and 21. And I see them looking to the future. And it doesn't look so bright. And so the youth, and this is where the really intergenerational justice is another piece of this, right? It's the older people who have been resisting change and saying, you know, we have to keep it the way it is. And, you know, I think that's really been a key piece. And that's where I think the Biden Kamala administration really has has the potential to be a real ushering in bigger transfer structural change. Obviously, we do that isn't going to happen unless a lot of us are involved and engaged and pushing. And so it's not, you know, the congratulations is very tempered, especially obviously, since we still have the current occupant of the White House has not conceded. So we have multiple levels here of real dysfunction and challenges ahead. But but again, I am there is reason for optimism. I agree. And you you answer that so nice. I hope nobody's toes were stepped on. So very politically correct. So but but I'm damn happy. And I hope it happens and that that we really move in the right direction, especially, you know, diving back of all the rollbacks that Trump did and all the things that he stepped out of that we kind of step back in and not just take a little step back in that we actually double our efforts and hit that exponential curve towards meeting some of these agreements, Paris Agreement and and many other very important environmental things where diversity, biodiversity, where climate action and environmentalism really need to be at the number one top point of focus in a world where we go. Yeah, as you still eloquently said, the book is it's not an academic book. It's about leadership. And I loved it. I devoured it. It just spoke to me very six to think seven chapters, you know, I want to go into that more and have you kind of dissect and that for our listeners. But it really talked about something that I've experienced over the years many times this climate isolation is isolationism. And that we really need to move from that shift and more into this energy democracy and to another, you know, transition. And then I tickled it a little bit with the growth squad and asking if vice hopeful vice president elect Malaharis is part of that. I think whether she knew it or not, she's kind of in that category as well as well as many others. You mind just kind of giving us a little your your pitch and rundown of the book and what led you to add a little bit of a touched in your biography because your history and what you've written on before and where you've studied around around the world and in the US especially has also kind of led to your eyes opening of what we're doing wrong and where we need to go. Absolutely. So this idea of climate isolationism is the way the ineffective way that for too long we've been talking about climate policy as kind of separate from everything else, right? And and also kind of talked a lot about decarbonization and greenhouse gas emission reductions and kind of this technocratic way of thinking about the numbers associated with it, which you know is important and quantifying things is good and helpful especially when you have goals and metrics. But it also has inadvertently excluded people because people you know don't wake up every day thinking about carbon emissions and it's also kind of been limiting in also this technocratic lens thinking about oh we need technology to save us, right? And that has proven to be ineffective and insufficient and inadequate basically. So what I propose is this alternative lens that we could be using of energy democracy, which is basically accepting the premise that we need to transition away from fossil fuels to a renewable based future and looking at that transformation as an opportunity to invest in what people and communities and households need, right? And it is revolutionary or really transformative because renewable energy is a totally different thing than extractive fossil fuels. So when we talk about a renewable renewable based future we're talking about you know it's not all one one technology either, right? There could be multiple scales multiple different kinds of technologies. So solar and wind are obviously key but on in coastal communities we could also have wave and tidal energy and offshore wind. Inland communities we could have solar and wind at different scales from household to like mega projects but we can also have geothermal energy which is a technology that we have under invested in and there are when you think about the breadth of different renewable technologies and resources every community in the world actually has access to renewable energy. So that's why it is so revolutionary because once you've figured out a way to harness that renewable resource the energy is plentiful abundant and free ultimately. So you really can redistribute power literally and figuratively and take back the concentration of wealth and power from the fossil fuel industry which has really been in many countries around the world but in the United States in particular it has been devastating. The concentration of wealth and power by fossil fuel interests have led us to policies across the board that are not in the public interest not elevating and optimizing the public good and we have seen a widening income and wealth gap in the United States which is just economic injustice is just being perpetuated and it is continuing even during this pandemic then billionaires are getting richer and richer and everyone else is really really struggling and suffering. So what the premise one of the premises of that I talk about in the book is this idea of the polluter elite which includes Koch industries and other fossil fuel interest shareholders and executives and other wealthy individuals and organizations that are profiting from fossil fuels and perpetuating fossil fuels though the polluter elite has for decades been strategically investing to resist the renewable energy transformation so we have the technologies we know we could we could have done it by now but we haven't because they want to continue to make money off of the fossil fuel our fossil fuel reliance and the way they've been investing in that is they've had a very strategic misinformation campaign to deny climate science and confuse us about the dangers of burning fossil fuels and about the dangers of the risks of climate the climate crisis they've also been investing to undermine public trust in government and dismantle regulations that are designed to help and protect us and protect our health and they've been minimizing worker protections and worker rights right and this has all been very kind of behind the scenes a lot of people haven't realized that this has been going on but it's been going on for decades and that's one of the reasons why we are where we are right now which is a very difficult position. I totally agree and I'm so glad that you brought up that before you move on to the girl squad I kind of grow the squad area I want to kind of touch on a few things that you said and and make that clear so originally when you're talking about this transformation climate isolationism to energy democracy what you're talking about is the basic needs of humanity so maslow's hierarchy needs the bottom layers of that pyramid so to say breathing food water energy security of resources security body that that we change the system that's not owned by a patriarchal democracy that's kind of done by a very diverse democracy one that is not only renewable but one that's for all covering the basic needs in it and yes you have a little focus on the US but it's really a global thing that you're seeing and discussing as well which I absolutely love because that is you know I'm an advocate for the sustainable development goals and it's really about a global plan for the future it's about bringing everybody out of poverty and hunger and giving them the resources the infrastructure that's what this nice sustainable development is that's a solid infrastructure for the future for us to springboard off into resilience which which you also work on as well and so I love that that you that you touched upon that as as well and and that most of these these monopolies or these patriarchal structures that are dominating manipulating and doing some very crazy things are very similar to back in with the tobacco industry how they kind of use some weird means the lobbyists and other measures to kind of hold the wool over humanity's eyes and things and that that's also very mail-run very patriarchal it's just a small few that isn't it's not for everybody it's not looking out for the big picture for us all and so I really love that you touch upon that but you have you really go into the depth of kind of stacking that a little bit and then addressing the gaps and helping us to understand that and I don't know if now you're going to kind of go into to grow the squad and how that how that moves but I really want you to because I eventually want you to after you've explained it a little bit better to us kind of help my listeners understand why the empowerment of women and girls after after you've talked about the wonderful female leadership and and the direction what that brings to our world and how this grow the squad goes that we really get into that as well and discuss that because I mentioned that a lot as well and a lot of my talks and and books and and things that I'd like to come out today yeah so yeah chapter one of the book is called growing the squad and the squad are are these four junior congresswomen who came on the national stage in the united states two years ago and really changed the national discourse on climate and energy by explicitly connecting climate and energy with jobs and economic justice with racial justice with health and with housing and the need for public housing investments and public housing in the united states so these young women they're all women of color from four different states iana presley is the my representative here in massachusetts she's the first black woman to represent massachusetts in in the national government and what they have demonstrated is that the principles of anti-racist feminist leadership are key right because what they have done is demonstrate how we can be more inclusive and collaborative and participatory and when we center social justice at the core of all of our policies we come up with very different policies right and they are really focused on calling out the patriarch patriarchal leadership that is really based on domination and exclusion intentionally excluding people to further concentrate their own wealth and power and hold on to the the power that they have and when when we do that when they do that they're actually exacerbating inequities and racial and gender disparities and the only way they're they've been effective is by denying problems right so they deny the systemic problems to kind of sustain the status quo so they deny the climate crisis they deny we have structural racism they deny the economic crisis health crisis food and housing crisis but what the the squad and the squad is also very inclusive it's not just those four women iana presley likes to say that anyone who centers social justice at the core is can be can join the squad is a member of the squad right so but the squad is really focused on reducing inequities and disparities by centering social justice racial justice and economic justice at the center at the core of every policy and process that we that we have because if we're not centering it we are actually inadvertently perpetuating and exacerbating those inequities so the other piece here is that anti-racist feminist leadership when you embrace the world with that lens you're also able to see how the link leverage the transformation that's necessary by linking problems together not by thinking about each of these challenges separately and and i think that's that's really key one thing that i want to emphasize with the the title of the book diversifying power why we need anti-racist feminist leadership on climate energy when i talk about anti-racist feminist leadership everybody anybody regardless of your gender your race your religion your cultural background can embrace anti-racist feminist leadership or principles all that means is that you acknowledge the structural inequities and you are committed to reducing those and acknowledging them and centering social justice at the core but so anyone can embrace anti-racist feminist principles the other piece that is really important and this gets to the second part of your of your question is that representation also really matters it's when women people of color and indigenous folks are come to the table in leadership spaces where they've been historically excluded we actually bring different life experiences we bring different perceptions of risk because of these structural issues that we have experienced in our own lives and therefore we bring a different capacity to center social justice at the core of our policies and so that is why representation is so important and as well as mobilizing and inspiring other young people to to get involved and feel agency and you know leverage the collective power that we all have but it's really important that that we have diversity at the table so that we can develop the most effective and policies that consider all of the complexities and all of the different constituents and different communities that need to be considered and that have been for too long not considered right either invisible or or even intentionally excluded right and and so that's really a key point of the whole book I don't want to get too controversial or be too big of a devil's advocate but I want to ask you a question that kind of comes up to me I really think that in in all things in our world there's really this balance you know the yin and yang the good and the bad that the ways and so I I really only usually focus on the real positive people the ones that we've discussed here today the ones in your book that are really helping diversify helping the feminist movement helping empower women and girls but I believe there's a few bad actors in there that actually doing as much damage as well in the process and I don't even I'm not sure is do you ever say well like maybe Sarah Palin or our on-way from Trump you know that they maybe might be doing more to harm good democracy or good diplomacy by jumping on the support of you know these wrong patriarchal and they're just there to fill a spot but they're not helping any movement do you ever discuss or talk about that at all absolutely so this is where it's also really important to focus on the anti-racist feminist principles right not all women are feminists or not all women necessarily understand and are focusing social justice and gender equity in their actions right and and so so I think that is a critical that's why both of these these ideas are so critical that we want to be elevating anti-racist feminist leadership which can be embraced by anybody and and we want representation so that we can better center social justice and it's there are examples as you mentioned of people who might represent but they don't embrace the principles and vice versa there might be there many people including many white women white men who embrace the principles but they don't help with the representation right so yeah so I think that's why both threads are really important and it's and and it's you know it's not a universal thing that all women or all black people embrace a certain perspective right we're all part of these complex social networks that and we're influenced by and we're getting incentivized to think certain ways about certain things and so that's where I think yeah always elevating both of those threads is is important when we talk about diversity so in your book you talk about some some wonderful advocate activists of women who are really doing some fabulous things you've touched upon you know representative Alexandria Cortez Gina McCarthy McClain who is the citizens for environmental justice Julian Hishaw of farms who I really like because I do a lot with food representative Omar and and it is for me I mean there's many many more so I mean just we're just tickling the surface this is a big thing and there's also a lot of data so to say from the actions from those women who have shown or been in those positions and have done some actions and rallied people and made some changes and impacts that we're seeing that there's so much success of so much better future so much positiveness that comes out of those things that they do and that's where why I really you know at this point in time my listeners need to get out there they need to go to island press they need to get your book they need to read it they need to think about how they can be become active I mention a lot you know the the the two biggest ways to draw down our global warming and and fix ecological and environmental problems and and even more importantly human health and human reduced human suffering is to empower women and girls I've gotten questions in the past mark you said empowering women and girls what does that mean and and well how how can you say that what what does that have to do with anything can you give us some tools tips tricks or maybe some some wisdom to tell us how that ties together and how people should look at seeing that besides the diversification and and besides some of the things that you touch on a book maybe some even more because there's numerous it's not just a couple things it's numerous things that impact it yeah so I think the answer you know one way to to think about that is just acknowledging how we all again bring our different life experiences and bring creativity and innovation when we have diversity so when we think about inspiring women and girls to be leaders in whatever domain right that they are passionate about we we recognize and you can see with all kinds of evidence how that results in you know stronger communities stronger organizations stronger policies and processes and and so it I mean it's it's directly connected to the previous argument that I was that I was making that I've been making and I think it's really important to acknowledge that with the different life experiences and perceptions of risk is actually another key thing you know there's research that shows that white men think of everything as less risky than do women or non-white men in the United States at least and and that speaks to kind of you know our our experiences with vulnerability and risk perceptions and when people elevate the lives and insights and experiences and and priorities that a greater diversity of people including women and girls and and others when those voices are included we end up with you know more robust discourse more robust solutions to problems more robust and effective approaches to and as I mentioned stronger communities and organizations and and so again the research on diversity is is consistent in you know organizations with more women on boards countries in the world that have more women in leadership positions actually have stronger climate ambitions and policies and so it's it's there's a collective good that obviously it's good for the women and the girls to have choices and have agency and and have more fulfilling or different opportunities but it's also bigger than that right it's actually better for for society to have more more different voices and and I think that's where again the creativity of the leaders that I highlight in the book and the innovation of how people are thinking about these the different ideas and the intersections is is so so powerful but back to your point about particularly like the climate and drawdown and like the you know is it how why is it that women and girls educating women and girls is is such a leverage point right and such a powerful area to focus in is because of these multiple win-win right outcomes of when women and girls have have education then they have opportunities then they have agency and can get involved and have the freedom to get involved in contributing to helping societies different problems that are and and and it ends up oftentimes in research shows that when women and girls have more choices they will end up having fewer children right and that is is a key piece as well because that contributes in in a in a in a different way to our our resource use and the overall impact of of humanity on on the planet so so it's all connected in that sense and I focus more on well again I like to focus on all the innovation that comes by being more inclusive and as kind of a really key key point that people don't always recognize how good it is how better it is for all of us right I appreciate you letting me put you on the spot and and thank you for answering that that's wonderful you you you get it so eloquently I always find it's sometimes not it's not taken the same way when when I say it or when I try to explain it just who I am so it's kind of like you know I'm saying almost the same things as greater some of these other youth leaders but I don't have the innocence or they don't like my beard or that you know on a grandpa whatever and so they just the message doesn't get heard so I really appreciated you bringing that down I want to get kind of into yes a couple other questions and then we'll come back to more resilience and a little bit more of the book um do you feel like you're a global citizen and how would you feel in a world without nations borders and divisions of humanity with nationalism with the without staunch racism and things that we've seen really bubbling and under the microscope during this pandemic yeah great question I um you know the the constraints of our national structures of countries um are are very real and you know we can see it now with the with the pandemic and also with the climate crisis you know when we try our collective efforts we are um yeah constrained by our our our nationalism and our national politics and and all of that um I actually was I was born in Dublin Ireland and my so I actually am a EU citizen and my family moved to the United States when I was eight so I I do have dual citizenship EU and the United States and so I I definitely feel uh to be a you know a global citizen um and I I think you know this is where solidarity across countries and social movements where we can connect outside the constraints of our national borders um is so powerful um and with all of these issues that are so universally challenging right um I think there's there's a lot of potential for us to um you know I don't think get rid of our national borders but but for us to um you know connect and and network beyond our our borders and and really um and I have I mean I have a lot of international and global collaborations and friends and family and and advocacy networks that I'm a part of and um you know it's so fulfilling and inspiring right to be able to connect with people around the world who are resonating with some of your struggles in a very different context but the same struggle right and it's very powerful and so yes it's a great question and and I I encourage all of us to you know reach out across our our national borders and and and connect as we can I mean obviously there's only so many hours in the day right and many of us have our activism more locally or nationally I mean there's so many scales and levels that we can engage so we do need to be intentional about that about where we're putting most of our energy but I do and I think the global and international networks are are increasingly important especially as we see you know the rise of authoritarianism in so many countries and and really failures of of participatory governance structures thank you very much so um we probably need to do another podcast eventually because um you're you're strong ties to energy and being in this for such a long time um for me and the basic energy need for human beings the physiological needs are breathing food and water so you know human health food you know where that food comes from our soils and things and that's why my book menu b is being on food and so I'd love to kind of maybe another time dive deeply into into that and and dissect that and and that's why chapter four of your book was so wonderful to me because it touched on on that spectrum as well um my my hardest question for you today and then you can have a sigh of relief and relax a little bit it's the burning question WTF and that's not the swear word although many of us have been pulling out our hair saying the swear word this this year it's uh what's the future yeah so I've actually studied how big societal transformation happens um and when in order to have big transitions um it the theory is the academic theory is that you need disruptions and disruptions at multiple levels so you need the status quo to be disrupted which is where we are right now I think because of the pandemic as well as some other factors but our day to day normal right has been definitely disrupted and I think everyone can feel that um then you need some macro level disruptions um that could be the climate crisis um right we're seeing more frequent and intense climate disruptions of all kinds and and and the implications of that and then at the same time you need local level innovative niche experimentation grassroots activism um and I see that as well so you know I I am optimistic about a restructuring and a transformation of of society I know it may seem naive uh given what's going on um but I think there are enough of us who are committed and passionate and creative and innovative and we are networked and we can be increasingly networked with each other and support each other um and and again in we see these um amazing leaders who are in political office um who are speaking truth to power and changing the discourse and yes they're getting vilified and particularly the squad the the women I mentioned they have been targets of horrible misogyny and racist attacks and you know it's it's it's really hard work um and it's very challenging environment to do this work um but we we need to continue and and I mean there's the alternatives are you know there's no you know we gotta gotta keep a positive vision for the future and and continue to work toward that so so obviously no one can predict the future and um we we are in such a time of suffering and hardship throughout the world right now um and so how it's all going to play out is is difficult to predict but I do think there needs to be um you know as part of the pandemic kind of recovery phase of humanity we can position ourselves to be making big public investments in what people families communities households need um and what we need to make sure is that those investments are made in a way that um prioritize the needs of the people who've been under invested in for too long and don't end up you know giving handouts to the already uh wealthy people who who will continue to concentrate their wealth and power right so we that's where again why the message of diversification and centering social justice at the core of all of our as many leaders as we can right in every aspect is so important so that in the post pandemic recovery um if and when we get to that phase we will be able to leverage our collective um wisdom and the resources that the the world has to elevate um for a more prosperous and sustainable future for all now that's so beautiful oh wow so there there's no that's the right answer ding ding ding you won but that everybody that I asked that question is it's always different but I really like how you um so nicely put that and and that's I'm just going to let it sit because it's actually really wonderful you teach um energy democracy and climate resilience uh technology policy and social change uh at the university or you have in the past and um for me I told you I started in 2019 with resilience frontier so it's which could be the the next goals after the sustainable development goals or possibly spark some other discussions uh similar to how the sdgs were developed um resilience is really you know there's different types of resilience there's the dystopian resilience where we're wearing spacesuits and gas masks and there's the resilience of emotions and body where you know somebody swears or hits you um which I'm sure uh uh in your book and but also the those of the the squad are dealing with quite a bit you know how do you bounce back with some resilience on these crazies or what's happening and then there's you know this uh resilient desirable futures or climate resilience something where um tomorrow a hurricane a flood a drought or something hits us but we still have the resilience to bounce back the next day with energy with food water and any other things and I'm sure you have a much deeper breadth of knowledge and resilience but I was wondering if you could kind of maybe depart some wisdoms that you've learned over over the years and resilience and and um you know for years we've been talking sustainability sustainability be sustainable and a lot of people don't they're sick of it they don't understand it it's too much for them but also what they uh don't realize is that you can be the most sustainable country or place in the world in the very next day a hurricane can hit you and all your sustainability is wiped out but the next day you need food energy water infrastructure um and and so in some respects we don't want to negate sustainability but what what I understand is if you have resilience it automatically has sustainability or should have sustainability ingrained in the resilience but it also allows you to thrive or flourish or to have resources basic resources and and hopefully others uh the very next day and so I would love to to steal a little bit of your wisdom and get some insight on on what you teach and what you you know in that respect yeah no thank you it's a great question and I've thought a lot about sustainability and resilience and using those words in different contexts and some overlap and as you mentioned some some distinctions for sure my my own definition or the way I think about um resilience and I think this can apply to all the different scales and levels of types of resilience that you mentioned is really preparing for adapting to and then learning from disruptions of all kinds right and that could be at the individual level something bad in your life happens then you have to like adapt you want to be prepared for it you want to adapt to it and then you want to learn from it so that you can continue on in and hopefully in a stronger way but that also resonates with kind of community resilience and climate resilience like we know that we are going to have more frequent and intense climate disruptions of all kinds whether it be floods droughts hurricanes and typhoons extreme weather you know the wildfires sea level rise all of these things so we we we need to be preparing adapting and then learning from each we are we we're past the point of prevention right we are not going to be able to prevent all of the the climate disruptions because we're already experiencing them and they're just going to continue to accelerate and and become more disruptive so um that's where the investments in acknowledging and the preparing and adapt adaptation is so important right and and that's been difficult to mobilize people right to to invest pro preventively for these inevitable but still you know futuristic disruptions that we know are coming but we kind of hope well they haven't come yet so maybe we're okay kind of thing the other thing that I am particularly again centering social justice when we talk about resilience is key because so in too many instances a lot of our resilience strategies have been end up helping the wealthier people like if you have a big flood or hurricane in many communities the well off households have insurance they get the money they can build back maybe they even build back a nicer house at the end right whereas the lower income households are really screwed right their their house is gone they may not have insurance they may be forced to move you know homeless and then have to like cobble together a new life somewhere right and and so each disruption can exacerbate and perpetuate inequities unless we intentionally design our resilience strategies and policies and processes to again focus and center on the people who need the help the most and and I think that has been that isn't always doesn't always come to the fore in our resilience discussions but it's so critical so that's where I try to have an impact in the the general discourse about resilience about really thinking about the distributional impacts of climate and other disruptions and then integrating our knowledge and understanding about the inequities and disparities in how we prioritize our policies and investments to strengthen our resilience thank you for sharing that wisdom with us and and making it clear because people hear me speak about resilience quite a bit in there they they need to hear another voice they need to be a little bit made aware of what it is how to look at it how to understand it and and that was so beautiful you you mentioned adapt a lot in what you said so I told you the aloha resilience foundation and so aloha stands for adaptive lifestyle of health and sustainability so it's acronym but even more interesting I told you about resilience frontiers which was in songdo korea last February 2019 that was at the national adaptation planning expo in songdo korea which the un has every every year that was hosted by bonky moon and we did this resilience frontiers kind of a moonshot workshop thinking about what's the future beyond 2030 so it's real nice to hear you know adapt adaptation and how that plays into resilience and why we need to be thinking about those type of things and it's really planning for the future making sure you have this resilience and that it's that it's well it's well spread or as well a place that not just to the top who can have insurance but that it's equal for all that it's really evenly evenly dispersed or displaced for everyone around the world so that we can have it because we are on one spaceship earth I'm going to wrap up I have three more vital questions for you and then if there's anything else that you missed that you would like to say well I'll let you let us know that but it's kind of a selfish thing it's for my listeners and it's a sustainable takeaway for them that they could apply make their life better some wisdoms from you if there was one message you could depart to my listeners that was really a sustainable takeaway that had has the power to change their life what would it be basically your message I think we all should be advocating for systems change and and bigger focusing on systems I mean each our individual choices are important and part we're all part of the system but I do think we're at a point where we need larger transformation and and for that we have to be advocating for restructuring and and and and really focusing on broader systemic structural changes I love it we could go to an a whole another two hour show just on systems view of live systems approaches I speak about that all the time what should young innovators in your field be thinking about if they're looking for ways to make a real big impact I think leveraging our collective power right we're all leaders when we talk about leadership it's not just those in elected positions we're all leaders in our communities and our organizations in our families in our different networks that we're in so I think really stepping up and and speaking up speaking out and and leading to act and acting to inspire others to lead is really important and it's so much easier when you're part of a collective and and so I think that's that's key I love it what have you experienced or learned in this long professional journey that you've had so far that you would wish or would have loved to know from the beginning well I guess I you know at the beginning of my journey I didn't understand these power dynamics of gender and race and the structural systems that kind of are so pervasive in so many areas so I think revealing that is is is is so powerful and I think that's where again I'm so inspired because so many young people I know see it and recognize it way earlier in their lives right so I think that's that's really that's I think that's where I feel like I've I'm late to the game in a sense but here I am yeah you wish you would have known earlier you would have started or changed or been discussing it more there's such such an important topic that's it that's all I have for you today and I really really appreciate all your time if there's anything you'd like to ask me or anything we didn't get a touch upon that you'd like to address before I say goodbye now it's your chance okay well thank you so much Mark it's great conversation and I guess just to listeners you know if you're interested in more of my work or if you want to connect I can be I have a website jennycstevens.com and I'm also on Twitter at jennycstevens so you know spreading the networking is great and I also just mentioned the book all author proceeds from the book go to NAACP's environmental and climate justice program which is an amazing program that is elevating the strategic manipulation from fossil fuel interests particularly in black communities in the United States so it's it's a really important work and I'm they're also featured in the in the book and the proceeds author proceeds of the book go directly to them so I will do some nice time stamping in the descriptions and also put in your websites and your Twitter and that as well and so I truly I recommend everybody get your book and start to shift their perspective let's diversify and and and empower women and let's let's get rid of this anti-racism and all and just move forward thank you so much I really appreciate it have a great day thank you mark bye