 Hi everybody and welcome back to our podcast from the Kama Sutra to 2020, where we look at your questions, your concerns, even your worry on all things to do with sex and sexuality. So as always, we have with us Dr. Anvita Madan Behal. Anvita is a psychosexual therapist and she brings the psychological perspective to the advice that the Kama Sutra has to give. Welcome Anvita. Thank you Seema and welcome to our podcast this week. So Anvita, today I have a question for you which is slightly different from the norm. So I mean, it's a question that's been asked many, many times. It's about online relationships, online dating, but this one has come in with a few more layers. And I really think it's the sort of thing that's on everybody's mind these days, but maybe they haven't got round to picking up the courage to ask or maybe they don't know how to put it into words. So this is what I'd like to deal with today with you. So I'm gonna give you the entire question. It's a bit of a long question, but I wanna give you the background to it. So it's from a woman who says that I'm 53 years old, I'm married, I come from a fairly conservative family in a fairly conservative society. And she says that she's not lived a very active sexual life because her husband has a sexual dysfunction. Now, recently she says that she was approached by her classmates who I'm assuming that when they were in college or school together, they must have had some kind of relationship between them. And she's been approached by her classmates to start off a relationship. And they were attracted to each other, they decided to do something about it. And then COVID happened, which meant that they could not get together, but they started an online relationship. Now, even with this, she says that she was a little bit nervous about the whole thing. Like she said, she's from a conservative family, she wasn't sure whether this was a good thing or not. So she was kind of holding back, waiting to see if it was okay to do. In the meantime, she decides that she's gonna go ahead and finds that he's already in several relationships online with several other women. And this seems to have bothered her a lot because she says first of all, that when you become intimate with somebody, there's a certain exchange of energy that takes place between them. And does this mean that when you have lots of online relationships, if the other person is having online relationships because eventually they will meet and if they decide to become physically close, will that negativity of the online relationships also transfer to her? And also, what exactly does this mean now in terms of, I guess, monogamy or in terms of online relationships that are going to become more and more common due to COVID? Is there a line? Is it okay for people to have multiple relationships? Most people say, oh, that doesn't mean anything. I haven't actually met them. I haven't touched them. I haven't been physical with them. This is just an online thing. So I'm also, this actually made me think about what is the change now in the world of casual dating? I mean, what exactly are we looking at now? Okay, so it's interesting. And I will approach this question more if somebody had come to me as a client and what would I look at it from a thing? So firstly, and so what I'll do is I'll maybe tackle parts of the question and then Seema, you can respond and we can because there are so many layers to the question. Firstly, I will start with the idea of problems within the marriage and approaching an affair or having it. And I want women to just think about this idea. Sometimes the circumstances are very difficult. We don't find a way out and everything and women find it liberating. This is their way of striking out and having an affair and everything. And I get it and that's fine if that's what you want to do but also remember and if it's coming from a power of empowering yourself and saying this is what I want in life because I have no way out totally as in work through it with you and that's fine. But the flip side that we really need to look at also is never forget your position of like the empowerment because the other person, if you're going from a position saying I have nothing to offer and I will take whatever somebody else gives me, I'm in this position, sorry position where my husband has a problem, I can't leave a relationship. So I'm not worthy of more then people can very easily take advantage of you. They can very easily say a few nice things to you and you can fall in love with them and you can start thinking oh, this person is so special and this is amazing. And then, you know, in like, so I'm not saying that's the case in this but if you think about it, it's very easy to say, oh, I was nice to her, I was nice to her nice to her, I can have five affairs online because all these women really have nowhere else to go. So I'm available for everyone in some ways. So the only thing that I'll start with is that never forget that you're worthy of much more. So if you want something and, you know, if you want to demand monogamy from the other person or if you want to demand that you be the only person don't feel like you don't deserve it, like go from the position of, you know, people can't misuse you. So remember that. So let's just, you know, that's just my initial view on, you know, what happens a lot of time when women decide to have affairs and how guilty they feel about their affairs and what would have the reputation that they actually, I had once a client who had an affair, was in an abusive relationship, domestic violence relationship. Her partner found her cheating and was very physically abusive publicly. And she kept feeling that she needed to go back to him despite the abuse because she's the one who had brought, you know, disgrace to the reputation and the family. Like her beating didn't matter, but her, you know, disgracing or the family reputation mattered more than the beating he gave her. So yeah. So I think that you've made such a valid point over there because that is generally what happens. So like she says that it's a dysfunctional sexual life because he has a problem. But yes, I think that women often forget that because when they decide to strike out, a lot of times they're going out from that position of feeling depressed, feeling low, they have nothing, they have no choices, they go out. And then the first person who gives them some kind of attention, they just feel so like thankful that, you know, oh my God, look, I'm worthy of nothing. And you gave me this attention, you're so wonderful. So I guess in a way, what you're saying is that if you must take this step, if you feel that you deserve it, then the first thing to say to yourself is that you also deserve respect in whatever you decide to do because you're not doing something or don't think of yourself as doing something bad and wrong, that you have chosen to do this because of necessity, do not let somebody make you feel like shit. Yeah, as in no matter what, and obviously we can go into scruples and the fact that cheating and all, but I don't, as in as we discussed, the question is not about affairs. We can do a different video on affairs and the reality is that affairs will always leave you wondering if you're cheating, if the energy and everything, but let's keep that aside because that's not what we're tackling with this question. We're not questioning affairs. What we're questioning is what happens after you're in one in some ways. And what I would say is that you still deserve respect. So it's very easy for women to go from one abusive relationship to a second abusive relationship because it's very easy for people to treat them in different kinds of abuse. Yeah, because like you said, this woman's heart was broken when she had, because ultimately her trust was broken that he was having relationships with a thing. And she's questioning if that is okay or not, rather than finding out for herself, does she want a relationship where a man has multiple affairs? Like that's her choice. And there is nothing wrong in saying, I want to have an affair, but I want to have an affair with a man who is going to be monogamous to me. Like it's what you want in some ways. So you don't have to take it. You don't have to accept this man if that's not what you want with him and his multiple relationships. So all I'm saying, like you said, I think you said it very nicely that you still need to be respected. Whatever choice you make, it doesn't matter. You still deserve the respect from your partner. God, yeah, that's such an important point. We talk about this all the time, this abusiveness that is around us and just being able to stand up for yourself and say, this is what I deserve and nothing less than that. Or at least be able to have the guts to put it out because I find a lot of women are too frightened to say it because they would say it very hesitantly and a lot of the men will say, but I'm not actually in sleeping with them. I'm not even meeting them, it's just online. And this is another shift that we've seen very recently. I mean, it was there always, but suddenly in this last year, 2020 has been an explosion of online affairs. Things have just changed totally. And what has that actually led to mean for relationships generally? I mean, we've had multiple questions. We've answered multiple questions about this, about wives feeling that their husbands are having online relationships and they're saying, no, it's okay, it's only online and so on. So where does that take us? So I think what we need to remember is that, sometimes what we think is that cheating or otherwise, that every relationship in some ways, we say this multiple times, intimacy and trust and building that intimacy and trust are far greater or far more important fillers to a better sexual life than actually the sex. If there's intimacy and trust, the sex will be better in some ways. And when we think about online dating, what we're saying is that that intimacy and trust is being broken. And in some ways, your energies, your time and your energy and your effort is being spent with somebody else. So the time that you could have spent with your partner or sent him or her messages, you're sending it to somebody else. So you're building a relationship with somebody else. So time and effort is going towards that. So yes, there is no physical sexual relationship, fine. So you're not like sexually cheating on somebody, but what you are taking away and that will impact your relationship because you've taken away all this time and effort and intimacy that you could have built with your own partner. And we forget that, that when we don't spend that time, then something is going away from a relationship, however long you might have been in that relationship. So I think that will impact it ultimately. So I think actually that's also an interesting way of looking at that question of energies because a lot of times people think of energies as some kind of separate identity, almost like a Shakti that arises inside you. And I mean, they look at it as a separate identity altogether. And I think if you break it down to everyday life, let's just say literally it becomes the energy that you are bringing into a relationship, which means that if you are with somebody who is completely faithful to you and their energies are focused on you. So they're love making their sexual relationship, et cetera. Their thoughts on intimacy are focused on you. There's a certain energy that they're going to bring to the relationship. If they're with various other people, they have already expended a lot of that energy. So what they're coming to you with is a very depleted amount of energy at the end of it. So I guess this is the other thing I'd like to say to everybody listening is that when you talk about the exchange of energies, don't think about that great metaphysical concept, which is really a much more complex idea of the Shaktis that are within you or whether it's the negativity. Think about it from the most basic point of view that if they have depleted that time and they've done their flirting with somebody else, their giggles are with somebody else, their excitement is with somebody else, what they're bringing eventually to you is the leftover bits. And what you're getting is the leftover energy. So call it negative, call it bad, call it whatever you want, but all you're getting is the leftovers. And no, that's not a great way to go into a relationship. And what I was thinking is Seema, I know you've said this before, is that all these messages or all these exchanges are actually part of the foreplay. So in some ways what we think about it is that they've done the foreplay with somebody else and what the partner gets at the end is just the physicality, right? So there's no emotion, there's no foreplay, there's no fun. They've done all of that with one person or multiple people. And so what you get at the end is just the physicality in some ways. And that's a way to look at it as well. If you had spent the day sending your partner at home, those texts, love making would look very different, but you've sent it to somebody else in some ways. Yeah. So I guess that's really amazing because if I was to encapsulate, from having now heard you say this, if I was going to encapsulate the idea of what is the meaning of online relationships and online dating to a person today who is going into a relationship, this is exactly it. That if the person, if the man or the woman that you're hoping to be with is in several online relationships and they're saying, oh, but that's nothing, it doesn't mean anything. It's just online. What you're missing out on is the foreplay, the joy, the excitement, the buildup. And all you're getting is the leftover energies and the most basic, boring part of the intimacy. They're not bringing the excitement to it. I think that's an amazing way of putting it. I haven't heard anybody else express it like that. So I think that hopefully this lady does actually take something away from here because to everybody out there who's listening, if you want a particular thing, you know what, suddenly with the world of COVID, having opened up online dating, there's a lot of people out there who are suddenly online and wanting a partnership. So in the same way as we're saying that it is maybe destroying a lot of the values and a lot of the relationships, in the same way it's also opening up a lot more possibilities. So don't sell yourself short. Yeah, and I know both of us have said that we don't have a problem. When a lot of single people talk about casual dating or casual relationships and one night stands and everything, we've said that we're not judging it and we don't have an issue with it and we don't have an issue with when people of any age want to engage in relationships. The question always remains is that, and people, it's how it leaves you feeling in some ways, and that's a big marker of understanding it. So if you feel that by your partner having an affair online, you're still feeling cheated, you feel the trust is less or you feel your relationship is getting impacted, then it's very much in your position to say, look, I don't like this and it doesn't work for me in some ways. You don't need to accept it just because, and I'm sure we made the parallel earlier on flirting and a lot of times people say, oh, he's just flirting, that's just how he is or that's how she is. She's very flirtatious and everything. And yes, people have that personality and that's fine, but I, even if it's my partner and sometimes I just get that feeling in my stomach saying, oh, that wasn't okay, that you're talking to somebody like that wasn't okay for me, then it's all right, it's something that happened to me. I'm not saying that you need to start becoming controlling where you start telling your partner, you can't speak to this person, you can't speak to that person, you can't, all of that. Now that is the reverse, that's also impacting the intimacy and trust of a relationship. But don't feel like, oh, I can't say anything because it's just flirting and I need to be cool about this and that's what it is. If you feel it, share it. And your partner should be respectful enough to hear you out and understand you. And that's what relationships are. And I think also is that if you say it, it may not stop the other person from doing what they're doing, but it means that they have taken your opinion on board. So it means that you have shown self-respect. So you've actually decided to respect yourself enough to say it, which automatically means that they are one step forward to showing you the same respect. So I think that's really essential. But there is also something else that we discussed which is the other side of this whole idea of saying that I want that monogamy or that faithfulness from you. And as you mentioned, that you yourself are actually stepping out of the marriage. So at some point, how do you feel about this? That I am stepping out of the marriage, I'm going to be unfaithful, but I want the other person to show faithfulness. Yeah, and I think that will be an interesting one. And as and when maybe we can do a video on affairs, they're always interesting because how we deal with it in couples counseling is secrets, right? You're always holding secrets. And what does that secret mean? And obviously, there's something less in your relationship and that's why you're seeking something. And as this woman has suggested, there is something missing. So one way would be to work on it in your own relationship. But if you don't, and more and more, we have had lots of people right where they have openly said, we're going to be in an open relationship. Now that takes away some of the secretness because you've discussed it with your partner and you've said to your partner, okay, you can see other people and I can see other people and people have accepted that. So there will be something that you will carry about being caught, that can be thrilling initially, like it can be the idea that it's a secret and it's an affair and you have to, it could give you a thrill. But at some point, already she spoke about the nervousness of being in a conservative family and being caught and was it safe, was it not safe. So be very aware of the consequences of what you're doing because it could impact your marriage. And also, it could impact from the other side because it's very easy for the other person to say, but you're cheating and not saying it. And I guess most affairs people don't say that. Like it's interesting that when people have affairs, they expect monogamy in that relationship, although they're cheating on their partners. But the reality is that we still expect monogamy from our partner despite the fact that we're cheating on the other partner. So I guess that's human nature maybe at some level. And it does hurt, like you were saying when the trust is broken and you find out that somebody else, and so those are the crossroads you decide, just always remember, it's if you don't need to accept it just because that's the truth, you can walk away and do what you feel is respectful to yourself. Yeah, I think like you said, maybe we need to do yet another video and talk about the affairs and this whole idea of trust and respect and monogamy and so on because I find that as it is the lines of monogamy were pretty blurred and with online dating and online relationships, which are not just, flirting was pretty straightforward, it was quite sort of torn down online, you can go so many steps further. So I think that's just added to this whole mix and there's a lot more to deal with. And I guess finally the last thing that she talks about is this whole idea of the new face of casual dating, like is this what she's actually going into and what is the new face of casual dating? So yes, like the world has changed where open relationships and casual dating and everything is okay. But I think from a psychological perspective that I would say is that be open with what you want. So if you want an open relationship, communicate that from the beginning. If you want to, if I was that man, if I want to date multiple women online, then present it as an idea because I think it hurts. So despite the fact that she was leaving her relationship, it's still really hurt that he had other relationships online. So it's very easy to hurt other people. We might find we have reasons to do whatever we do. Like I was telling you, I had a friend who mentioned that there's so many married men on match.com or whatever. And they have to literally filter through in some ways. If that person, they will very easily write, it's complicated or in the process and all of that thing. So it'll be much healthier and much more respectful even if you're going through something to just be open about it and say from the beginning, this is what I'm interested in. This is what I'm looking for. And like you're saying, there are lots of takers. There are lots of takers for open relationships and casual dating and everything. Both men and women, there have been really interesting articles recently in the news because an article came saying, men are more okay with one nightstands, but women regret them. There was a recent article, but recently there was an article where a woman said, women are as okay with one nightstands as men are. There's no regrets for her. So just be open, casual dating might be there, but be open about what you want from it. So if you want casual dating, just be open about it. And that way you will land up hurting other people less. Yeah, and I think also hurting yourself less because if it's a casual date scenario, then you're not expecting anything from the other person. But if you're thinking that it's going to be a relationship and I think most women do tend to become quite emotionally attached. And I think it's very easy to become quite emotionally attached. So I think that it becomes a bit more of an issue for them. There's a natural tendency to start feeling resentful. And I've noticed it doesn't matter what age you are. And it doesn't matter even if you have decided on this before because I have known somebody who started a relationship knowing, they discussed it, the man said to her, I don't believe in this whole monogamy idea. I do have a couple of other people but I'm very, very attached to you. And they were fine when they started, but in time that it kind of canceled itself out. I don't know, but the female brain works a certain way. And you start expecting that single-minded relationship. And also what I would want to say is if that's who you are, nothing, we talk about fluidity and everything. If every relationship grows. So if you've grown in this relationship and you say, you know what? I want more at this point. When we started, I really wanted a casual relationship in life. I was happy dating, having fun, no strings attached and everything. Now five year hence I want more. It's okay for you to say my terms and conditions have changed. Like it's nothing, it's not, you know, you're not signing away all your relationships the first time you sign it on. It's a relationship. It's not a contract on Google or something where even there you can change the settings that you have. So don't feel shy about saying, you know, I want something else in life. I don't want, when we started, I was happy with casual dating. And if you can't give back to me, and that's the right of the other person, then I need to move on to find it from somebody else, you know, but it's okay to say, you know, I want something deeper. I want something much more. I feel more attached. And now it's bothering me that you have other partners that I would like monogamy in the relationship. That is brilliant advice. I think it's so important we forget that we all grow in different ways and we all want something different at some point. So just like your interests change, your feelings also change, your desires, your needs change. And I think it's all part of that self-respect to be able to say, to articulate it. It could be that you say it, the other person is not ready to go all the way, but maybe there's a way of meeting halfway if you have a really good relationship. So maybe there is a way of sort of coming to a compromise, which suits both of you to some extent, because I do know that if you leave it in your head, you become resentful, things just become really, really bad. And that will definitely end in a bad way. So learning how to speak up for yourself. Yeah, yeah, sorry. I was just saying, I had read an excellent article once about Tinder and this woman was saying that she had recently divorced and friends suggested that she go on Tinder. And she absolutely loved it because she was just off a divorce. She didn't want the dining, the relationship and everything. She didn't want to deal with it, but what she was missing was sex. And so she just wanted physical sex. And she said, it made it so easier. You met for a drink that gave a little bit of safety to judge if there was chemistry, if she liked the person, she doesn't like the person. If she didn't, she could just walk away from the bar and say, okay, I'm not interested. But otherwise she could meet for a drink, have sex and then there were no strings attached. She didn't need to exchange her number. She didn't need to seek to the person again. Nothing was required. And subsequently, when she was ready for a new relationship, she started dating somebody on a long-term basis or whatever. So she was very aware of what she needed at that time. She wanted something, she wanted something sexual that when that phase of her life finished and she felt ready for a relationship, then she looked for a relationship. So there's no shame in saying, this is what I want now but I'm a different person now and I want more from a relationship. Garsh, I wish that we could all be like this woman but I have to say that most of us aren't either because we don't know what we want or mostly, mostly we are actually looking for emotional support more than even the physical sex a lot of the times. And I think that's what a lot of times women are looking for which is why things kind of go belly up. But yeah, wouldn't it be great if you could just sort of say, yeah, this is all I need. This is what I need to just balance myself out and I will think about everything else later. So I think Anitha that pretty much covers the points of this question and you've certainly brought a lot of perspectives to my thinking as well. So thank you so much for that. So I have, the points I've come away with today and what I would like to now just read back to everybody is one is that don't go into a relationship whether it's online dating or an affair or whatever, don't go into it feeling non-empowered. Always feel empowered for yourself, understand that you deserve respect and go into it because then you will approach it differently and the person who you're going to be with will look at you differently and treat you differently. Secondly, you are not desperate. There are a lot of people out there. If you've decided that you really want to have an affair and the person that you've chosen to be with is not giving you what you feel that you need, you can move on. There's a lot of other people who are quite happy to have affairs, do move on. Find somebody who will give you that respect first whether they give you long-lasting love is not the point. Whether they give you a lifetime's worth of commitment is not the point. When you're in that relationship, you need respect. Finally, this idea of energies. We are talking about not some kind of metaphysical concept but something very real which is that if the person has got various other people in their life that they're having a relationship with various other people, they're going to use up a lot of their energies on them. The foreplay, the flirting, the giggling, the excitement and you're going to get the leftovers. So treat that as an understanding of bad energy because you don't want to be ending up with just the leftovers, you're worth more than that. And finally, that relationships develop, they grow and you will grow also and your needs and your desires will become different as you go on. Do not be afraid to say what you would like. If there is enough communication and trust between you, say it and it may not pan out as you think it should but not saying it is also not going to pan out how you feel it should. So the idea is to learn how to say it, not in a fight but say it nicely. Have I covered everything under that? Absolutely and I think, and I want to say that it's no longer about women and men. They're as, I don't think it's a gendered issue. I think it goes both ways because as many women are having affairs as men and so I don't think it's gendered at all. Respect is as important for men as it is for women and sometimes men are unable to say things. So this is important for both men and women. Well said. So I hope that everybody is gonna be able to take away something from this because I know that the face of online dating, the face of casual dating is changing drastically with all of the COVID restrictions that have been in place and just how the world is developing. So please do take some of this advice on board because what you want out of life is a healthy relationship, not somewhere where you're being miserable, no matter what that relationship is. As always on the video, do like, comment, subscribe. We wait for your questions on info.seema.arnand at gmail.com. And if you need to get in touch with Anvita about any kind of therapy or counseling, she is on anvita.madanbehell at gmail.com. It's in the description, so you'll be able to find the exact spelling of her name over there. In the meantime, take care of yourselves and we will see you next week.