 Peace be upon you. Wasim As-San welcomes you to Marketing for Non-Profit Organizations, MKT 628 at the Virtual University of Pakistan. The topic of the moment is Evolution of Marketing. We all know that NPO's could have a very special character and because of the purpose they serve and the mission they have to achieve, the application of marketing principles takes added importance and a very central role in the overall working of the NPO's. And therefore, everybody who is involved with the working of NPO's has to have a very good understanding of the principles of marketing. When it comes to the staff working for the organizations they really have to have a thorough grounding of the area of marketing whereas all others who are associated with NPO's in one way or the other like giving donations or sending volunteers or making public policy as part of the government or governmental agencies all have to have a clear understanding of the principles of marketing and in particular the working of marketing managers in NPO's because if they have a good understanding of the working of these people then they will be more helpful. And by the same token the people working for NPO's could have to have a thorough grounding and they must impart knowledge of their area to all those who are associated with them. Given this importance of the field of marketing we have to explore how the field has evolved into what marketing is today so that we can have a very clear understanding of why and how a consumer or customer takes a central role in giving the overall area of marketing the centrality of function within the overall working of NPO's. Businesses have been having different orientations toward the area of marketing during different phases of evolution and the fact is that these orientations have been a function of the pattern of production and consumption relating to different times. When I talk about these phases one by one you will know what I mean by these patterns of production and consumption. The first era of the marketing relates to the period which was just about the turn of the last century meaning early 1900's that was a time when some very important inventions had taken place and the products hit the marketplace. Things like electric light, radio and motor car were on the market during those times and it was the priority of the manufacturers of those products to churn out as many products as they could. The meaning to attain as high volumes as they really could because the objective was to achieve a scale economies on the production side as well as on the distribution side because they really envisaged to distribute the products as far right as possible and that's what they did and in the process achieved all the scale economies. People were happy because they thought they were buying products beneficial and useful to them and the manufacturers thought that that was just about the right way to approach the market as long as they could give them beneficial products that was what marketing and business was all about. If I give you a proverbial marketing statement which will really flash into your mind and recall some memories from one of the courses on marketing it will give you a pictorial image of this particular area in your mind and the statement is like this. This means that as long as you can make something attractive the consumer is bound to come to you to buy that product. So this is why that era also is known as the sellers market whatever sellers could make they sold all that in the marketplace which of course is in the not the case at the moment. Anyway this the product mindset that could be defined in the following terms a product mindset toward marketing holds that success will come to those organizations which will produce products considered useful by them. Now if you could take a very good look at this definition because you will realize that the words considered useful by them refer to the manufacturers so whatever manufacturers or producers thought that was useful for the consumers they produced that because they knew consumers will be trapped they will be influenced they will beat their pathway to the door of the manufacturers and buy those products but gone of the days. So what happened was during the 1930s the great depression sat in in the US market and as a result of that the sales volumes which are witnessed before the great depression sat in were not to be seen any longer and sales dwindled as a result the capacities were not fully utilized to the buy manufacturers who in the earlier era were very happy about producing as much as they could that was not the case because sales went down people did not really have the surplus income and because of the shortage of disposable income the people became very pickier and very discriminating in deciding the what to buy and what not to buy so that gave a huge challenge to manufacturers to proceed further with strategies that could have been very ingenious in relation to that time so the manufacturers and marketers alike got the heads together and got themselves convinced that they had to have reorientation toward the marketing thought and strategies it was at that time that they came up with the concept of persuasive advertising and promotions because the sales were low production capacities were low and scale economies could not be achieved the people did not buy as much as they were buying in the past so they had to do something which could have been a little you know tricky in relation to that time so they came up with the concept of persuading their customers with the help of very appropriate and effective advertising they came up with this thought on the basis of two arguments one was they would try to convince their customers that after they have fulfilled their basic necessities it was in their interest to buy their products meaning manufacturers products because the products were good and they offered certain benefits which could not be 100% ignored and therefore they tried to convince the customers try these products because they are in your interest but of course after you have fulfilled your basic necessities the second argument or the basis of this strategy and philosophy was that our products we offer are definitely better than our competitors so in other words a competitive era had started at that time and producers and marketers responded by having competitive strategies and among the competitive strategies which really came into the forefront at that time it was the strategy of advertising so it was during that time the advertising took a big boost and as a result of that the manufacturers were in a position to sell more than what otherwise could have been the case the challenge was such that they had to follow this particular route so this mindset which came into place during the depression or 1930s is known as the sales mindset and sales mindset that could be described as the following a sales mindset holds toward marketing that all those organizations could well be successful that are in a position to effectively persuade their customers that their products are better than those of their competitors so like I said a competitive era could have started and manufacturers and marketers could gave their customers with the food for thought so that they can think on the lines of making certain very discriminating decisions in a favor of their products everybody thought his products were better than his competitors but of course it was upon the customer to decide what was good and what was less than good as you can see that this is the era which is characterized by the persuasion and not by the character of the trapping customers or influencing them sitting in the factories and thinking that anything that would go out of the factories is bound to sell and is bound to fall into the hands of their customers during the sales mindset period customers could became discriminating and very fastidious and they made choices on the basis of the features of products which the manufacturers and marketing's were talking about then came the Iraq in which we find ourselves today and this era is known as the customer mindset the era of influencing and trapping the customers and then persuading customers about the goodness of their products era of the customer mindset set in because customer became the more and more the focus of the marketing effort by marketing managers the reason that this happened was because the customers started having very vast choices of the products and brand I mean different brands and customers saw intense competition to the his the benefit and customer could also become a subject of the very sophisticated the marketing management techniques on part of the marketing managers and that made customers could even more discriminating that was a time when marketing managers realized that the process of marketing planning has to start from the customers it is no longer feasible to start the planning process from the organization so in other words they brought a sea change in their thinking because they were convinced that the process has got to be outside inside and not inside outside inside outside the marketing process means that the marketing managers and manufacturers are going to try to trust their organizations and the products onto the customers which should not be the case because that does not really fulfill their needs you have to start the process to the from the customer and then come back to the organization this is something that which reflects a very high level of customer centeredness meaning outside inside to the marketing approach because that is the point of emphasis and that is something which brings the customer into a very short focus and allows the customer a central role and that is what we call customer centeredness and the marketing managers could became convinced with every day that passed by that the customer centeredness is the answer to all these strategies that they may have in order to come up with the programs and then implement those programs whether those were about producing tangible products or offering certain kind of services in the commercial markets or on the social welfare front you have to first of all find out what really is the perspective of your customers so that you can respond accordingly and then can have your customer act the way you want him to act and thereby bringing about a change in his behavior now this is something which I'm trying to relate whatever we have learned so far and this is the beauty of the developing these blocks of knowledge which can be related and interrelated in order to the develop of understanding and then integrate that into a broader perspective. Getting back to this the customer in the mindset let me also tell you that in order to find out the true perspective of your customers you have to get into things like getting our surveys to the forming focus groups and conducting the marketing research in order to unearth and reveal what really is it that makes the consumers tick and then they make them take a particular action and that is going to be the subject of the so many different other topics which I'll be talking from time to time and therefore I suggest that you may not look upon all these things as repetition and rather try to understand that their application in different perspectives as they apply to application of marketing techniques and tools to the area of social welfare for the customer of the mindset to the weak and sick with confidence that this mindset holds that success come to that organization that best determines the needs wants perceptions of target market and continually works to satisfy them through design communication pricing and delivery of appropriate and competitively viable offerings. Now if we take a very close look at this definition this talks about so many different things first of all this says that we have to have a very sharp focus on the customer thereby suggesting that customer centeredness is something which we must achieve and we must drive the organization toward that centeredness. What it takes to get to that point is again going to be the topic of discussion later but that is something which any organization that really wants to professionally fulfill its programs has to be customer centered. So this is the first dimension of this definition. The second dimension is that it suggests application of the variables of the marketing mix because it talks about satisfying customer needs with the help of delivering something which is meant for the customers which is in line with their perspective and then that offering has to be supported by the appropriate communication strategies in order to promote it and in order to hammer that into the minds of your customers and then you have to come up with relevant pricing which is friendly or which is looked upon by the customers as something workable as something giveable. You remember the concept of pricing in the context of social welfare it is all about sacrifices. So the kind of sacrifice your consumers are to give is what pricing is all about in this particular social context and then this definition talks about delivering the product. Delivering the product is all about the distribution and in other words when you talk about variables of marketing mix it is the last and the fourth P meaning place which is all about distribution. So this definition is a very comprehensive reflection of what marketing is today and just look at the difference between this mindset or this model where what the marketing started with meaning the area of influencing your customers and trapping your customers. Having given this narrative I can now conclude what I've talked about the evolution of marketing and I don't really think it is difficult to conclude because what I've talked about is that the process of marketing planning which started at organizations during the first two years of marketing has paved a way for the customer mindset and customer mindset is all about bringing the customer into a sharp focus and giving him or her a central role in the process of marketing. Nothing should move unless we have explored the perspective of the customer and in response to that perspective we have to come up with hours and it cannot be the other way around. So in other words the gone of the days when marketing people or manufacturers tried to fit customers to organizations. Now is the time that they must try to fit organizations to customers. It is logical and it is much less difficult because you have control over your organizations. You do not really have control over your customers. With that control you can make your organizations flexible and you can make changes to your programs and it is with the help of all those variables of marketing mix that you find out all those perspectives relating customer and then also try to bring in changes as they might apply to the future situations. So the application of the variables of the marketing mix is not just confined to the present. It also relates to the near future and the future is always near future in terms of your marketing practice because you keep on revising it all the time and it is kind of a continual iterative process. If you keep on carrying out the market research with the help of the service I referred to forming focus group I talked about and conducting marketing research which is absolutely essential. You can always explore what is it that they really want and what it might be that they may want in future. So it is all about the customer focus and the centrality of the customer that the marketing of today has become all about. The next topic I'm going to talk about is the marketing management. The objective is what is the marketing management especially in the context of NPO marketing. This again is an effort toward building the blocks of the basic knowledge which are going to help us in coming up with a marketing plan and overall understanding of the area of non-profit marketing. Proceeding with the objective I can tell you that the marketing is all about exchanges and this is what we have learned so far. It is an exchange the benefits of which could be in so many different forms and shapes. Economic benefit, the emotional benefit, psychological benefit, religious benefit, so on and so forth. So depending upon what kind of benefit consumers think they derive out of an exchange because we've got to understand the nature of the exchanges as they take place in our particular social context. So if the marketing is all about exchanges then I think it becomes very common sensible that marketing management is all about managing those exchanges. However, the process is a very well-structured effort which takes into account all the variables which I just talked about in relation to the customer centeredness and the customer mindset which was one of the dimensions of the previous topic. Anyway, the importance of the marketing management gets strengthened with the customer centeredness which I just referred to. So it is a combination of our conscious and well put together effort toward making variables of marketing mix work for an exchange program along with the fact that the customer must take a central position in the whole process. The importance of marketing management really gets strengthened. So it is something which can hardly be overemphasized. Marketing management, therefore, can be defined in the following terms. It is a process of planning and executing programs designed to influence target markets behavior through creating and maintaining beneficial exchanges for the purposes of satisfying personal as well as organizational objectives. Now if we again take a very close look at this definition, this also talks about so many different dimensions. The first thing it focuses on is the creation and maintenance of relationships. It is the prime responsibility of marketing people to create exchanges by offering something which is needed by their target audience. And then the second part of the job is to build up those exchanges to the point that those get consummated. Once you have completed the exchange, you have to maintain that exchange as part of a sales effort because that is something which has to go on and on. The second dimension of this definition is very similar to the one I talked about in relation to customer mindset. And that is that the effort is well structured and it is a coordination and adaptation of all the variables of marketing mix which you have to bring together in order to achieve your objective. The objective is to come up with a certain program in relation to your purpose and mission. And therefore, it means that you have to get customer's perspective first and put that customer perspective in front of yours and not vice versa. But once you have done that, you are in a position to come up with a program. But before you come up with the program, you have to go through the whole process of getting good research. And this is what I refer to as the surveys and focus group and all the tools of marketing research which you might need or other which you will need in order to explore what is the need of your target audience. Once you have determined that, you can go ahead with planning the program. Why do you have to get into research and to find out his perspective first? By saying that it is because of the centrality of the customer or the focus on customer, I also have to add it is a question of very high investments. Trying to put together program means committing a lot of money to that program. Because getting good research is not inexpensive. However, there are certain tools which may not be very expensive and this is not to say that we always have to go for things which are very expensive. But I am talking in the context of getting ahead with the very realistic thoughts of putting together a budget for the program. Once you have put together the budget, then you are in a position to know where do you start and where do you go, what are the parameters and within which budget limits you have to confine yourselves. After you have determined that, you go ahead with those focus groups and surveys and conducting of the marketing research and so on and so forth. So that you can have a complete and effective grip on the perspective of your customer. Just think about a hypothetical situation you are working on a family planning or immunization program. How do you move ahead? Well, the objective of the program is going to be that you must be able to bring about a shift in the value system and established behavioral patterns and attitudes of your target audience. Without having been able to do all that, you are not in a position to convince them about the offering that you are going to carry with you and therefore you have to come up with a program which absolutely convinces your target audience to take the action which is decided off them. So how do you go about the whole thing? Well, like I said, first of all, you have to put your budget together before you come up with the market research, the side of the whole thing. After you have had the findings of your surveys and research, you come up with a program and certainly that program is very much in line with the strategic outlook which you have about the program and the purpose and the mission. And needless to say, they just took a developer link with one of the knowledge, the blocks I talked about earlier, you also have to go back to your donors and to the board members and everybody who is involved in funding and contributing money toward the program to convince them of the efficacy of the programs. Back together, this particular program, preparation and then implementation, once you have come up with the program, you take that program to your target audience. Once you take the program to the target audience, you explain all the features of the program. Why is it that family planning is needed and what are going to be the kind of benefits they will derive. So you, in other words, well explain the nature of exchange and you will go on to explaining the benefits they will derive out of the exchange you are talking about. And the same is the case with another program which may be about immunization. So in both the cases, what you are doing is you are selling your offering which is product or the first peak of the marketing mix to your target audience and convincing them about the value of exchange. You are talking about the benefits they will get. Well, when you talk about the benefits, you are bound to talk about the pricing also. How do you talk about the pricing? Well, you refer to the sacrifices those people give and you cannot talk about the value of exchange unless you already have talked about the sacrifices which they will give. Economic sacrifice or sacrifice of the change of the old value system or changing the old established patterns of behavior and so on and so forth. Because you are convincing them, look, you are going to be better off if you change your behavior or change your value system in favor of the values that we are talking about. You are talking about a new set of behavior. You are talking about new changes, adaptations they have to bring about in their thought process in their values which the harbor and so on and so forth. So therefore, you are talking about the pricing side of the marketing mix. So this is the second peak that you have talked about. Now, coming to the third peak, how do you relate to the third peak with this kind of a program? Third peak is all about delivery. Well, when you have gone to your target audience which you really have because you want to be good at the distribution system and that is why you have approached your target audience in small teams and you have gone to their communities. You are not waiting for them to come to you. A time will also come when they will come to you and that also will amount to having a good distribution system or addition to your distribution system. But in the first place, you have to go to them and when you have gone to them, you are delivering the product in an effective way. So this takes care of the third peak which is about place meaning distribution. What about the fourth peak? Well, the fourth peak is about promotions and part of promotions is the mixed tools of communication which any of the marketing managers have at their disposal. So you will reinforce the education that you have imparted to your target audience in order to make sure that they continue with the exchange which you have accomplished or trying to accomplish. So in other words, the education which already is given to your target audience needs to be strengthened and reinforced with the help of an effective communication strategy and that takes care of the fourth peak and this I would say is kind of completion of what I talked earlier about coordination and adaptation of variables of marketing mix. Now you are very clear about how the fourth piece of the marketing variables can be applied in the context of a social program. This might be a little tricky before getting a comprehensive narrative on how this piece are going to be applied but I think that with this narrative things should now be very much clear in your mind. And with this I can say that the marketing managers in the area of social welfare do come up with the formulation of strategies like I indicated earlier as well and they get into the execution of those strategies which in itself is a big area and they also get into monitoring and control because when it comes to the monitoring and control it is not just the management of the organization in the social context it also is the board members and there may also be donors who can be very intervening or involving or engaging to the benefit of the organization. So this is a process which is very well thought through with a very well planned and very well structured in terms of putting all the variables together. I am putting a lot of emphasis on the variables of marketing because the fact is any sophisticated marketing cannot take place until the time that you have taken into account all these fundamentals and the fundamentals of marketing revolve around these four Ps and the flow out of these fundamentals all other sophisticated concepts because they may that be segmentation may that be positioning or they may that be further branding of your product and so on and so forth. I'm going to talk about all those things one by one because once I'm done with all the fundamental building blocks of knowledge and together I hope very much that together we're going to be done with that and just about together one or a couple of more lectures. Let me now explain to you what I've talked about with the help of a graphic presentation which is going to make things further clear in your mind. Keeping at bay any kind of misunderstanding or misapprehensions that are going to make creep into your mind. Let us take a look at that. As you can see from this presentation the whole process starts with developing a customer mindset. So a customer of the mindset is the basis of the marketing management and if we have this mindset it means we have to examine their wants and their attitudes because customer takes the central place in the whole process of marketing management. Once we have explored those wants, needs, attitudes and overall perspectives on part of our customers we can plan our programs and we plan our programs for their implementation and it is at the stage of implementation which is down at the bottom of the presentation we start putting into play the variables of the marketing mix which I just explained in detail and once you are into the phase of implementing those programs a very interesting thing happens there and that is really a food for thought for all the marketing people and the fact is that you might already have thought about that and that is what happens to the existing products. So here we can say that the marketing management is not just about creating exchanges, meaning creating new products and offerings it is about building those exchanges and maintaining those exchanges. So the marketing management takes care of existing products or offerings or programs and also new programs. What happens with the existing ones and what happens to the new ones? Well for the new ones you have to have the customer mindset so that you can start with the process that we have become accustomed to by now and when it comes to the existing products we go to the next step which you see right on the right hand top of this presentation we maintain those exchanges and it is at this point that we have to have a sales mindset. When I talk about this sales mindset I'm not really talking about in reference to the evolution of marketing which I just explained in detail earlier. This sales mindset is required on part of all the marketing people in order to maintain exchanges and you maintain exchanges just like you maintain your sales of existing brands of products and therefore the sales mindset must not take precedence over customer mindset which is the starting point of the customer marketing management. So I will again rephrase the whole thing in the following words that when you look at the customer mindset in relation to maintaining exchanges and customer mindset in terms of examining wants and attitudes of your customers you should not or rather must not look at these two mindsets in their evolutionary context. You have to look at these two as they present themselves through the process of implementation of your programs and this is part of the implementation of the programs that you have to have that sales mindset to preserve your existing programs and when you are maintaining those exchanges or existing products or programs so to say that you have to keep on looking are there any changes which are needed in these programs. If the answer is yes you go back to the examining stage of customers wants and attitudes because this is the point where you keep on revealing any changes in customers attitudes in order to be prepared to meet future eventualities and that is why I said that this is an iterative process which has to go on and on and you sell your existing programs and at the same time you keep on getting your research or small surveys just in order to make sure that you are on the right track and any changes which are taking place in the minds of the customers are going to be reflected in their future needs and therefore you have to bring about a compatible change in the future programs. So the marketing management is not just about to the maintaining exchanges it is about to the developing exchanges creating exchanges and then maintaining them. It's a continuous process which keeps on going and never stops. Having given you this explanation of the presentation let me now conclude the whole concept of the marketing management in relation to the objective which I talked about at the beginning. Well we can say that marketing is all about exchanges and marketing management is all about managing those exchanges. What it takes to manage those exchanges is a function of putting so many things together which basically are variables of the marketing mix and why do we do that? We do that because we want to have a perspective of the customer to put that perspective in front of ours and the fact is that having customers the perspective doesn't hurt because it really helps us in serving the purpose of the organization so this is the benefit of having customers in a sharp focus and giving him a central place in the whole process. Another thing that we can conclude easily is that the marketing management is not just about the new products and new offerings it is an iterative process which takes care of existing products as well as the new products. When it comes to existing products you have to keep on selling those or in other words you have to keep on maintaining those exchanges in a social welfare or a social marketing context and when it comes to new products because you have to start the process all over again. So whether it is a question of maintaining your exchanges or a question of coming up with a new program customer that takes the driver's seat or in other words customer that is in focus all the time and that is what marketing management is all about. Let us now move on to the next topic which is about a customer centered organization. We have the two objectives because the one is what is a customer centered organization and objective number two is what are the reasons for lack of customer centeredness. Now it becomes very obvious from second objective that there are organizations which lack customer centeredness and I am going to look into the reasons in a broad sense because there are many more factors responsible for customer centeredness but if I talk about these two broad dimensions because you will know why is it that organizations lack customer centeredness despite the fact that they think they are working on a very noble cause and the objective is something which should bring everybody close to where they are and they should not be needing any marketing support and because of the nobleness of that particular objective they happen to be very customer centered whereas they are not because they are very organization centered this basically explains the difference between being organization centered and being customer centered. Let us in this slide look at the definition of a customer centered organization. Well it is the one which makes every effort to sense serve and satisfy its customers and public within the budgetary constraints. The budgetary constraints is very important to the dimension that we have to keep into consideration because we do not really have unlimited and infinite financial resources within which we operate. Since the funding is a great challenge in NPOs we have to keep ourselves within certain limits but the fact is that a customer centered organization keeps interest of its customers paramount. They bring the perspective of the customer in front of their own because they are customer centered. As a matter of fact there are very small and minor kind of indications which tell you about an organization being customer centered or organization centered. Without having to go into detail at this moment you are going to just think of an organization where telephone operators may not respond to your calls and could help you with the questions that you may have. That could be an organization which is very organization centered and not customer centered. Similarly if the people from a certain organization are not really good at the follow up of the programs which they have initiated they again are an organization which is not the customer centered. Just thinking that nobleness of the cause makes one organization customer centered is one thing and bringing the customer into a sharp focus in the definition of the marketing management is another. This is a very comprehensive process and it is a complete philosophy in which the customer takes the center position and because of that position you are going to carry out the whole exercise of putting so many variables of marketing together in order to be effective and successful. And therefore just saying that the goodness of the cause makes us the customer centered is not very logical. There are the two dimensions like I indicated earlier which are attributable to the lack of the customer centeredness. Number one is that organizations could generally lack the resources. And number two is it is not a priority. Well let's talk about these two the one by one the former meaning organizations they may not have the right resources. It all starts with the lack of appropriate human resource in the first place. And the things really get bad and they go from bad to worse they also do not have sufficient finances. Getting back to the human resource if an organization is not in a position to hire the train and then motivate the appropriate human resource how is it possible on this earth to bring everything together as an implementable the program. There is no way that the organization is going to move to word customer centeredness. As a matter of fact this kind of an organization they may not survive for a long time because they are got a shot of people. Another reason within this human resource factor is that of volunteers. If the organization is depending a lot on volunteers of course they are not as trained as the paid staff and their output is not really characterized by the kind of professionalism which is displayed by paid staff. And yet another factor is the people on deputation from the government side or international agencies the two NPO's not having the kind of the motivation to go for the programs the NPO's have put together. So it is a mix of so many factors which are really highlight and they bring it to sharp focus the need to have the right kind of people to work for the organization. The second factor like I talked earlier is that of priority. If an organization does not really have the factor of customer centeredness as one of its priority or the prime priority with which it should be it cannot be termed as customer centered. It still remains organization centered. And in most of the cases it is seen that organizations which are involved into sophisticated the medical research or the medical treatment are the similar things requiring a very high level of the expertise applying latest technology are the ones which really lack customer centeredness because they are not under any competitive pressures. And even if the competitive pressures are there to some extent they think that they are not to be reckoned with and that they can live without those because they are offering a noble service they're working on because there's something which is highly technical and sophisticated and therefore they don't really have to be with a very outward looking they can be effective even if they are inward looking and that brings in the inside outside the marketing approach and the fact is that this approach does not really work for a long time. Organizations have to keep in mind that they exist because of the customer and until the time they give the customer a central role and weave all their strategies and the policies and the executional programs around the customer there is no way that they can be termed as the customer centered. So this is all about the customer centeredness and having given this narrative let me now gives you a conclusion of this topic. There are organizations which are customer centered and we know the features of the customer centered organizations because they are the ones who give a customer a central role and they are the ones who bring into play all the variables of marketing in a very effective way. They go for the well coordinated with a set of programs and they bring about adaptations of the concepts of different the marketing principles in relation to those variables and put together their programs. But just like I gave you the example of the social, the welfare programs in the area of family planning and immunization. But the part of the conclusion which is very important is the availability of resources to the two NPOs. They have to have the right human resource and they also have to have the right kind of finances to support their programs. And this is why there is such a tremendous need on part of the NPOs to be able to generate their own funds. So it is not something which is confined to obtaining donations and funding from outside sources because the NPOs also in all the preference should be able to generate their own funds. And this is where the concept of getting into commercial activities comes in. And this is where the argument given by the proponents takes precedence over the argument given by the detractors who say that this amounts to going overboard because NPOs are seen getting into commercial activities to a point they should not go to. And proponents saying that it is absolutely essential for NPOs to get into some kind of commercial activities to lessen their dependence on outside funding because if they have the profitability and if they have ample funds because they really can could apply those back into the programs to make implementation of those programs more vibrant. But there's a condition and that is that they have to be within the prescribed limits of the charter of NPOs because the meaning they have to keep those profits back into the coffers of the company profits must not be distributed. Another part of the conclusion is that apart from having the right amount of resources NPOs could also have to have the will and the motivation to make the programs implementable. Just having resources and they're not having the will and motivation also they will not take NPOs to where they want to be. This is all about the topic of the customer centered organizations. Thanks for your patience. And I look forward to talking