 you accepted to have this conversation with me. So, as I told you, I would like to talk with you about games as a way, first, as a pedagogy to this, and I would like to know what you think about it and what has already done. And also to tell you that I've had some ideas just because you asked the people who sent me questions. And so, anyway. Yeah, so we've been using games for pedagogy for like forever now. My first program that I wrote when I was eight years old, that was in 1989, was actually a pedagogy tour. It's a line of basically pollutants. And I would ask my brother, who was four years old at the time, to enter any fraction numbers. So if there was like one half, and then there will be a dart, and then landing here. And so gradually, people can start learning that the idea of fractions, how to measure it in terms of segments, and it's actually lots of fun. And it's being created in scratch, actually. And so it's literally the first computer program that I've written, aside from Hello World, of course. And so that was like 30 years ago. And nowadays, because my brother is a child who was also around four years old now. So we're just rehashing all those old games. But I also use newer games to help teaching and about pedagogic. There is a new independent game called Baba Is You. Baba Is You, yeah. So have you heard of the game? No. I think it's a great pedagogy tool. But what it does essentially is asking people to think about the rules in the traditional setting, so that I think it's easier if I just show it. So the idea, very simply, is that you have lots of worlds. And all the rules of the game is displayed here. So like, for example, here, say, Baba Is You, so you can control the wall here, and flag this stuff. So if you run into a flag, you cannot move anymore. But if you push this away, the flag is no longer stopped, and you can walk through the flags. And then you can start thinking about how to form the wing condition. So for example, if I form, flag is win, then that means that touching the flag creates a wing condition. But there is a better solution, or a more interesting solution, namely to create flag as you, and then you can move the flag around, and so on. So this is a great pedagogy tool, because it teaches practically logic. In the later levels, there are words, not, and all, and things like that. So like you can say, not flag is you, then everything is not a flag. You can move around, and so on. And so it makes children think outside of the box is not pre-designed rules, or physics, or things like that. But rather, the rules becomes a social object that people can have a conversation and have an interesting experiment with. And so I think this heads down one of the best ways to talk about practically logic. Because otherwise, when people talk about what is, and what is not, what is conjunction, what is this conjunction, you tend to have not very intuitive conversations. But using games like this, I think it makes all the logic predicates very visible. I've also participated in the translation of pedagogy design games, like Game of Thrones, Mickey Case. Yes, so I personally translated the segregation model, that is to say, we translate it as beer on pushing the patient. But I think the English name is the parable of all the gongs. It talks about how to increase diversity intentionally. And I also translated the game of trust of prisoners dilemma, with different NPCs representing different strategies in a prisoner's dilemma, being that talks about collaboration, cooperation, even in the face of communication failures. And there is also other Mickey Case games, such as how the media freaks things, how does this information spread through social media, the small network effect. And all these are very relevant academic concepts. But it's designed in a way that even five years over six years old, I can very easily play. And so I think this is a great pedagogy for an individual who is our deputy minister of education, who sent all those Mickey Case games, translated by me or other people, to all the high school and primary school teachers, so that they can use this as a learning tool, so that's my involvement in the game as pedagogy. For these games, in the case of games, you translated them into numbers. Immendering, yes. But did you participate in the creation of these games? No, just the... So during translation, of course, there are parts of the game that, you know, because of the layout, because of the culture and things like that, that needs modification. And so then, because all of these are great to common zero, meaning that I don't have to ask for permission to change it. So sometimes I just change it away, but I usually just say that more requests to some Mickey Case can incorporate it in very languages translations. And also because it's easy zero, so my translation has also been packaged by people who are more avid mobile gamers. And so they just create apps, which is just through packaged website, so that you don't have to have an internet connection, but you can still enjoy those games in more rural or indigenous areas that don't have an internet connection. And I think that's a great contribution as well. And so you said that you sent it towards the application, so now it's been used in which context? So basically, because coming this year with a venue curriculum, that emphasis is critical and creative thinking. It's not a course. It is a way to change the interaction between teachers and students, so that teachers no longer hold the authoritative outside, but rather they are asked to explore the white internet to build competencies, namely autonomy, interaction, common good in the students. So that means that people are less individually competitive, but rather collaborative in nature. And I think these games are a perfect example because they're very rarely individually competitive. They're all about providing peace of the puzzle to help understand this issue. So they're, I think, now used in the civic classes, but also mathematics classes because these are mathematical models as well, and as well as any other class that the teacher may feel like. There is no saying that this must be part of just a science and technology class. It could be used in any context. And the new curriculum also charges the community, the parents and so on to co-design the actual textbooks or the materials with the teachers, and each school has the full freedom to decide their own distinct classes outside of the curriculum, as still in the K-12 hours. So there are far as high schools that just design e-sports as their specialty class. So people who are interested in e-sports will actually go to the school and play e-sports. But then from there, teachers thinks about, you know, in the literacy code of conduct, the response will be used on social media and things like that. And so that's a little bit more of the points. There are schools also have a specifically designated philosophy class. And again, games, such as the Jordan problem, right? When they're playing in a direct professional illustrates for philosophical concepts, much better than abstract words for a lot of students. And so these are like designated classes, but even in the K-12 itself, we're now also encouraging this use of a lot of salaried materials. So and it begins now? It is this year, this August. This August, yeah. It is, it is a dramatic shift from a school-based curriculum. Because I was amazed, I was invited in Vancouver some years ago, I did the Center for Digital Media and all that pedagogy was put in influence by games. And I like a view of failure as a way to run. And actually I was invited as a guest teacher, but it's me who went back to school. And I have to learn everything from scratch. Because yeah, especially in France, we are used to learning some to the faster and the rough. So yeah, that's amazing. So it begins at the age of, so the first grade, the seventh, and then the test. That are the grades that we're rolling out in front of this year. And next year it will be, of course, including the second, the eighth, the eleventh, and so on. And so after three to six years, everything will be converted to a different grade. So and then you said that your game was made with scratch. I know that I got someone who told me that there are already some places of scratch. Yes, it's not good. Yeah, so you kind of want to scratch, are do we know rust bearing? These are very popular integration tools. They're very affordable, they're still contained. Even in the environmental protection classes, these are sometimes, so for air boxes, which are very cheap air pollution measurement devices. It used to be there. It was there just now, just outside of the office. But in any case, it shows students what does it mean to be a data steward, right? People cannot really learn about it if you don't give them a garden, right? Or something, a plant that grows because the interaction with the plant is the important part of it. You cannot just learn it abstractly. So again, when you have a device that measures the air pollution, but in many primary schools in the city, they just distribute those air boxes so that all the students can learn what does it mean to be a responsible data steward? What does it mean to calibrate your products? What does it mean to contribute to the data commons? What does it mean to analyze those data using machine learning or AI so that we can collectively make a better collective decision? And so on and so forth. All of these are most traditional step classes. They're rather there within the environment with us. Now that's interesting because if you want to have more participational collaboration in the development of the democracy, you need to build a younger generation to be more proactive and... Yeah, and then also let them learn data relationship from a data steward's point of view so that when they, it's time for them to exercise their data privacy rights, their data vulnerability rights, their right to ask for a copy for modification, for understanding the purpose, informed consent and so on. They know what language to use because they've been on the data steward side as well. So it's like legal literacy or competency. Not everybody has to be a judge, but people need to, for example, in many schools now there's kind of a mock court for the students to arbitrate the common issues that occurs so that when they were in the jury's position, in judge's position, they'd then know how to exercise their civil rights better compared to if they were only on the defendant's position or the defendant's position. So you spoke about Alvino and so on. So I tried to imagine how it is in the classroom they use as well. Right, so maybe we, is that a hundred example, right, people first start seeing how many people use those air boxes to start measuring for air quality and it's all uploaded to a distributed ledger. Otherwise it's a blockchain, but try to say BLT instead, a ledger so that's no matter how powerful your computer is, you cannot modify or change other people's numbers. It's all in the commons. So people learn about blockchain in a way that is socially responsible. They don't learn it through transparency, but it's a way to help each other accountable. And then we make sure that people also know the idea of open hardware, open source, meaning that we don't have to ask for a license if you are a fraud. We can just use Taiwan's design and Taiwan's software. And again, in the K212, we strongly prefer open source and open hardware solutions because otherwise when the students graduate, maybe the vendor just goes bankrupt. Maybe the vendor changes their focus. Maybe the vendor gives up maintaining, right? But if it's open source and open hardware, the student can just form a certain impress to maintain that forever, essentially. Like what the Mozilla initiative did to Nescape. Nescape is no longer there, but Firefox was no use in every day, right? And so all this continuates because it's very important in K212, which is why I always focus on games that are not DRM, that there is no subscription required to keep the game activated. Because if there is a DRM and the company gives up, it's no longer maintaining it. It's actually very difficult for the pedagogy to continue across different ways or to across different teachers and teachers have to learn everything from scratch or in scratch. But in any case, I think now the Scratch 3 has been ported to mobile devices and is free from Adobe Flash player. It is no longer tied to a proprietary technology and that is very important to us as well. So it means that in the classrooms, they are all using computers with like Indian or Linux operating software. Well, it depends because Microsoft now maintains a Linux kernel. And if you install Windows, it comes with a copy of Linux. So we're not particular about whether you run these games within a locker container in Microsoft Windows or whether you run some Mac or you run some Linux where we're operating system agnostic. But we do insist that on an application layer outward, it should not be platform specific, meaning that if a student loves Linux but their parent use a Mac, it should still be possible for them to introduce the game to their parents on a Mac. So we're not saying that it's 100% Linux, we're not saying that. But we say, you know, it's 100% open documents. So it's open standard, it's open API, and open documents, of course, we can open it using Word, but you can also open it using deeper office or other Google Docs or whatever. So basically, we teach the children to respect the idea of interoperability more than fixating any particular console solution. And the idea of good designs, the balance is also amazing, I think. That's what I'm thinking in my head myself. If only you could be the consultant of the French Ministry of Education. And what about, just come to my mind, what about quotation? The quotation, do they receive notes, grades like A, B, C, or A? So, not really, so for example, usually this is called problem-based learning, right? So if the student solves a problem and write a standard report, of course they get good grades. If they don't solve the problem, they write it post-mortem, whatever it is, they also get good grades. So this is no longer about, you know, having the right answer for everything, but this is about giving an honest try and sharing whatever you have learned. But if you, of course, miss those team meetings, if you don't make it to the demo day, if you have a work-on project at all, then of course you may feel you're great. So this is essentially a college-level scoring mechanism as part of a curriculum which is brought to a high school level. For who I mean, I'm also to, because the idea came to my mind because I had to meet you and also because I met someone in South Korea, he was a John Deere, me. Me? Okay. Sure. And he's a game theorist. And right now there is like a big crisis in independent games in South Korea. And he was saying that perhaps it would be good to promote more and more independent games, but with a social impact in order to perhaps save the game industry but also as an answer to the big global literature that represent games nowadays. And that comes also with a moral, at least coming from the other side of the world. And because everywhere people play the same games, here even I was to try that they are also playing from line. So it's like we, like, without any judgmentalism of any question. But so, with you, I was like, okay, and why should we promote independent games and independent games making in the schools, in the education process, and in order to change a little bit the world and the system. I think that's why Scratch is so useful in the sense that it's a little bit like Minecraft, right? It's a collaborative world when people play an interesting game on Scratch. They have the tendency to click views of us and you can always fork meaning that you take the game just as I translate the game and add parts that I want to do it. So it teaches two important ideas. First, independent game making is not about a heroic single creator, but it is a group effort and you can always make it better. And the second is that it teaches an important thing that is called creative commons, right? People can, using creative use of copyright like Wikipedia and other ways, to dominate their knowledge, but with the caveat that people who change it must also dominate their knowledge as co-shared like. And these two important ideas, commons that is co-left, right? And also collaborative game making. I think it's very intuitive and useful for especially primary school children because then they can understand that they're not consumers, right? They're creatives, they're narratives and stories and it's just like a shared play making a transitional space to show their fantasies in a way that becomes part. And I also forgot to mention that there's many other ministries promoting independent gaming. For example, Ministry of Culture is spending a lot of money making. For example, this is a famous independent game created from Taiwan. It's called Detention. Yeah, it's easy to meet you on Thursday. You're very welcome to meet them. Right, so you can ask them about this part of the game called Detention that teaches people history about the so-called white-haired area which is a part of this which is not usually explored at the end. And it puts people in the shoes of a... get imprisoned just for a while. There's a part of Taiwan's past that is usually not talked about by parents and all grandparents and elders to school children. But through independent gaming the children can be entered, the white-haired area and experience how is it like to have no freedom of speech, have no freedom of assembly and things like that and treasure democracy more because otherwise children can do take democracy as granted. And so this is a very, very popular independent game which like the top of the steam and then the Ministry of Culture has spent a lot of money after then receiving a cultural award to make it into a movie, to make it into manga or into other media forms so that people who interacted with this world can then take their projections and it's like Lord of the Rings to do world building. But that world building is based on an actual historic period in Taiwan and so this is those as a culture education but not a tool but also as a contemporary culture of the remix project that people can add to it. Because one of the first meetings I had was with Mr. Johnson Lee who is in charge of the independent game developer Mid-Veps. And when I asked him to present me what is the situation about independent games here and the game market, he said, you know, there are very, very few creative games because even in the independent game world we weren't so much into doing this kind of games. We wanted to achieve the market and we wanted to make money. So of course he mentioned the intention and the devotion but then it was hard to really speak about many, many other games. So I'm happy to know that Mr. Franchetti is really making that. And I think the most famous and popular rough-up thing for pedagogy is around history because it was part of Taiwanese history that people really thought it was undervalued like how it is during the indigenous kingdoms or truth and error before the Dutch arrived. That is largely a period that's not covered well by the history but now the indigenous nations are getting their semi-sovereignty now. So it's very important for the East part of Taiwan to have their own Austronesian narrative and that is the focus of Mr. Franchetti. And then also during the World War II that usually because the ROC is on the winning side. So the traditional history books emphasize the winning side but the foremost of people at the time was part of Japan and therefore on the losing side and were martyred by U.S. bombers and ROC bombers, right? But that side is not very well represented. So the most popular rough-up thing is actually around the bombardment and high-pay embellishments and so on so that people can learn the hottest line of the story. But those are not video games. They're board games with a video element or an MV element or things like that but traditionally it's much more easy to involve primary schools' children in that table-top game rather than a collaborative video game. But once you reach like junior or senior high school, then collaborative video games are much easier. Would you like to get some information about these board games? Yes, of course. Of course, the board games are amazing as well and I met Leticia, a fan, and you also worked with you. And Leticia showed me a game about women with miscarriages as a board game and that's why I thought you don't play on the game. You have to pick out the... Yes, that's a good game, right? The single-star as well, but for sure... As you can see, the MV about the game, you know, Raid on Kakao, which is the name of Kao Shoum, that was in 1945. So it talks about the Raid on Kakao and a lot of things like that. So I think it's very useful for the children to just look at this trailer and learn about the culture at a time. You see, it's very popular. Right, so you can... I think if you want to talk about it, it's only in these games that the team is called MISO, M-I-Z-O, MISO games, and they... M-I-Z-O, and they were here to ask me to play this game, so I actually have played this before. And I would say it's really good that I could do so. And also, I met a sexist who should be a man Ray, and he told me about the exhibition with the Indigenous artist. And I did some workshops of using games as a tool for alphabetization with G-Gamp, and I was wondering if this person, if you are working also with games for a while, far away from the cities and... Yeah, I think you'd say it's a great topic. Because as I said, the curriculums are now co-designed with the community and parents. You will find a lot more materials concerning this in the municipal level, because the Ministry of Education knows we're restricting these things. So, for example, this is from New Taipei City, and this is, again, a board game, but using the world UN declaration of human rights, and then each part, each program represents one human rights guaranteed, and then so people can talk about a little different cases, for example, someone who have transferred parent food in a very young age and haven't yet registered their birth certificate and their 49th healthcare, which part of the UN rights for young children, for children and youth, did it, did it violate and things like that. And so, basically, all of this is a way for people to work in a very young age to have a very good understanding of if you're an orphan, if you are not registered, if you're in a fixing right, or if you're bullied and things like that, which part of the board do you represent and which card in the International Commission on Human Rights can you use to reclaim your rights and things like that. But it's not an administrative thing, it's just a new type of safety level to use on it. That's interesting, one of the first exhibitions I curated in 2002, I think it was a big gaming group, but inside there were also like art installations, gaming installations, and one of them was, let's say, VR game, where you had the maze in front of you, full of images of misery, and you had a joystick in which you could shoot on us. And in your years, you had the declaration of the human rights and all the articles, and at the end, if you shoot, you received a document saying you were part of the big system, worldwide system, and you destroyed the hospitals and you also killed 100,000 citizens, and if you didn't shoot, so it was more like, shh, and less, because this, they have to make some choices, so they have to see the politics, so it's less like... Right, and there's also a game that's translated and we didn't play here, it's from Japan, called the Sustainable Human Rights Game, the SDGs game, and so each of the players has a different bottom line or different agenda, for example, to earn money, to reach for social justice, to protect the environment, and so on, but it's a collaborative game so that people can walk on any SDG projects, and it shows the kind of trade-offs that we were making in 2015, that for example, our art has economic growth over environment, and things like that, but how using new technologies, like renewable energy, like circular economy design, we can eventually, by advancing technology, take care more about the social environmental side while keeping the economy viable, and so people have to really collaborate to implement those strategies that people negotiate, just like people in the UNGA, about which project to do first, so that people can collaborate and when it's already reached the triple bottom line, and this is very instructive, and this is interesting because it's not, per se, so as a game, it's trained as a facilitating experience, and so only facilitators are licensed to bring those cards, so in a sense, it is not a game, but it is rather a course design, but it's also getting a lot of popularity in this social innovation line. Since I met with a new person, and I was asking about the relationship between art and video games, which is my job, and I was asking if there are some meetings and contests between the art world and the game world, and from what I heard, it's quite hard because the world is still... Yeah, there are game games, but usually designers are not so much artists. And I'm wondering what you think about this possible meeting, because now there are many artists that are using the same kind of tools, also then use Unity or start doing VM station, but still, they don't communicate, and so I met him casually yesterday, and she was telling me that she's thinking about perhaps making some residencies for this meeting. She was also telling me that it's hard for engineers to think about collaborating with artists, so... Yeah, I think it takes a shift in mentality for artists to kind of keep up artistic control, because a good game is all about having the player do the part of the world, part of the genesis, or if you're a open world game, then it's the same option. You can do many unique games, games are like that, but that also means you give up the authorship of artistry, and I think that's the main burden, because people who are making different games, as I said, they see themselves contributing to the commas, and they usually allow people to remix those new movies, or into whatever, but for a traditional artist, it is a difficult mentorship to get into. So I think like the sea lab, which is part of the culture lab here, is explicitly asking artists to create in the open, so they don't say artists, they say creators, and by rebranding artists as creators, and by publishing the drafts, the art making process to the public, I think the sea lab is a very important one, because in other museums, galleries, and exhibition places, you tend to not so much see art in progress, but rather art as an accomplished goal, and it's usually so accomplished that people wouldn't want to change it, and if artists are there, they are kind of spokesperson for the art, and then increase their business. That is not at all interactive with the exhibition's viewers. So I think it's rather difficult for a completed art to ask the artist to just donate to the commas for other people to remix. I mean, photographers are not doing this, but not many other medium is doing this, like if you're only painting on canvas, it's not very likely, but if you open up the creation process for people to participate in form, as long as that becomes a kind of being of interaction. So I think just shifting the publication from the publishing process to the drafting process, I think that naturally creates medium spaces and dialogues, and that's what the sea lab is doing. And first art here is less, it's not really... There's not a huge community of open source in terms of where art is from. Well, I mean, Shui is clearly a leader in it, but I'm not exactly sure how much influence she has on the younger generation in Taiwan. She's very international, right? And so I think just by demonstrating her art in an interactive form in sea lab or in other, like Venice Biennial, it creates motive for other people to follow. So I wouldn't say that Shui is playing directly her organizers role, but rather she represents a different vision of art that artists may want to tap into. For the last two years in France, also I did one in Colombia last year, we've been organizing with Chloe de Muayo, she's a young artist, we are one of this event. The name is the event of Art Game Deco, and we, in the party, we mix video art, animation, machinima, spiritual art, and also demonstration of video games, experimental games, prototypes, artistic games, or experimental games. They don't have to be ready, they can't be also just an idea of the game, when people can't be users because it's most of the types that form it. We are here with us by this guy, and most of the time we launch a performance proposal on certain subjects, so we do like city, we have free distance program and games, and also borders and migration. And then there is some music performance or a teacher set, because the point is to address the person who will tell you games on the phone, and not in the games, or ask them, nice thing, you know, I don't work in New Zealand. So that's exactly our audience, because we are thinking that perhaps we become just to have a drink, just to dance, and by coincidence, by chance, we can discover our works or games, that we perhaps change their mind about video games, and what is that? Okay, that's great. Yeah, so it's a good vision. I think if you have time, you may want to talk to this artist, slash designer, slash technical, looking at that, watch out. Watch out is a social enterprise that is focused on making interactive games out of the parliamentary proceedings. So the Congress is live streaming, of course, here, but then they make a lot of games and interactive experiences around the congressional proceeding. And so he's trained as a master of fine arts in Rhode Island school design, so really a artist background, and brought the zero movement to, for example, the Blitz Festival, as well as other art history designers. But his big job now is just to design experiences so that people can find democracy in Beijing. And so this is like a cross-section of mechanism design, game design, and arts design to make sure that people can find democracy as an interesting project to get involved with. So the name is Chen Haoqiu. This is the name. And he has probably a lot to say about the art establishment, sometimes negatively, in Taiwan, and how he goes to bring out a non-establishment artist movement that is far more social justice-aware. And so I think he may be a good visionary to talk about. Super interesting. I forgot to ask you, and I just mentioned that you did a certain type of games for the kitchen area. That's right. I just forgot to ask you that. Sure, sure, sure. Because you designed that. I did, I did. So that's actually an actual project that we just try to design all the different ways for people to engage in all the Taiwanese languages. And so there are very simple games, such as this one, that just shows the different Mandarin characters and your work, it will fall faster and faster, into phrases. And so, for example, I can select way down, you can also use the mouse, and then it shows green because it's actually a phrase, and then you can press space to cancel it. Or you can use the asterisks, like this one, and then it will teach you an EDM-like T-chan scene line, because star means, you know, any number of words, and then you can clear it. And this means one scene over, and so you can input. There's some very classical phrases just by playing this game, and that is pretty popular. So it's called Moe Ed Tris, a combination between the Moe and miniature education and Tetris. So it's a game. There are also other games, for example, this one teaches radicals. So each Chinese character can be composed, into different radicals, and then if you select A, and this talks about homonyms, so every word that pronounced as Moe in any tonality, then there are words with different tonalities, and you can switch to, for example, its other tonality, and then it will show all the other words with the same tonality and pronunciation, and then you can view it by the radicals as well. And then all the different words under the radical will get showed. And so this is a way to talk about the shape, the sound, and things like that, and then this is, of course, the dictionary definition. And this is very interesting. It shows, starting from home, it has different clusters. This one is structured around a sprouting. This one is around publishing or representation, and so on. And if you click any of the words released, then it then shows that it's not just about release, but it's also about its course, and about sudden or radical change, and things like that. In areas like the word here, it's propagated to other windows so that you can see that Shi is composed of these different things, and then it can combine with the radical of the previous words into different words as the one. So it's a, I think, very interesting design to teach about the interrelationship between the shape, the sound, the radical, and meaning of the characters. Has it ever been exhibited? This is the hackathon project, so it's been exhibited in the 2013 Young Boot Hackathon and with help from these industries of culture, and the city, and this replication. It's been included as part of the VDO to promote programming for students where I just demonstrated how to cover this up. So if you want to include the exhibition in it, I think it's a good thought, right? It's just a year later way. The thing I was amazed I loved in South Korea was the alphabet because it's very geometric with circles, squares, and there is this group, this group who give the performance using the alphabet as a system of an algorithm. And you know, I was like capacity. The integration with a wider culture system, be it industry, be it a locale, like human geography, and things like that. The situativeness, I think, is what makes the game as much as a short experience, but rather people can participate naturally across generations and have no successful independent games such as the ocean that we mentioned. Circles around this very core idea of a shareable viewing on a situatious geography. And, of course, it's also a very good game. So it's not just because there's about something related to the role of a worker chance or something like that. The experience is very well designed, but I think there's a sense, just like Lord of the Rings, right? Lord of the Rings was created to fill in the missing spot of the creation of the British population. And so, basically, it fills a historical point. And I think that's what makes it sustainable, not as a one-shot thing, but as what people would want to have to. So game as in this, I think it's the greatest thing about games. Yeah, one of the games that was made by in South Korea was the replica of Surveillance, like so many, and it's legal dungeons. And it's about being in a position to have people lives in your hand. And people to realize what it means to be in this position, but also a way to better the Korean globe. Because it's really like super realistic. And finally, it's just a very good game. Yeah, I've heard really good thing about it. I haven't played it. I've played a political game called Diverse Peeps. That's also very, it's a very strong kind of moral commentary, but about how people within the system, what really they can do to degree about authoritarianism and things like that. And it doesn't go judgmental, right? Authoritarianism is just a system. It shows all the features of the system, but it doesn't make critical political commentary. But while you're playing it, you're about to make political commentary in your mind. And again, that's part of it. Yes. And my deep thought to go watch out I go to, oh yeah, I have the name and yeah, I finish. Yeah. And also Mizzokings made a board game about radar. What they are all just an email away. So if you just google Mizzokings you can find them very Mizzokings. Mizzokings, M-I-C-L Yes. They have a Gmail address right in there. Yeah, and just last word because I saw that you spoke about it. About e-sport, you already mentioned that high school can just open an e-sport class. But what I also read is that it's possible if you want to avoid the military service. Not to serve the gaming community. To do culture education service. Okay, so it's it's deep. Yeah, you can go to schools and teach the culture of e-sports. Of course you have to be a good e-sport athlete you know. Because we've already offered that to Ouichi players to Go players. And Go is nowadays actually an e-sport. Most doggings are done online and AI can massively complement people's understanding of the game. So my main argument at the time is that e-sport is a white category and Go, Ouichi is an e-sport now. And so if we already open up cultural service for military service people for Go players then we should also offer it other games and e-sports with a significant cultural idea. But of course then they have to have it qualifying just like Go ranking to weighing one of the major conditions and so on in order to qualify for it. So if you have a social meaning for games what about real games? Real games. Like games showing more diverse vision of the world. Sure. I mean one of the things translated not by me but by Niki Keis is the Kamehata simulator and the Kamehata simulator has received quite a bit of audience and I have another communication specialty team in Taiwan and let me just find here. But I always talk about ananthropy and I was mentioning last week and the rise of the video game and the urge of pushing everybody to make video games in order to have more diverse game making and games for you. Yeah a little bit. So yeah this is from a project called Simple Info or Two-Wing Fu Fu which is a very popular infographics social design team here and they actually included a lot of demographics about homosexuality about coming out about the important historical presidents of civil unions and otherwise and the psychological profile of people who decide not to come out because Taiwan has been in the public sector doing gender impact assessment for more than major policies in the past 12 years so we don't really need to educate our public service as the constitution or the constitutional ruling just became a mandate for the public service. So it's very easy for the public service to come up with Asia's first marriage equality implementation but for the wider public especially the more elderly generation they still haven't had gender check diversity and other things and so this is a case thing and I think it's beautifully translated and it's been a really good tool leading up to the marriage equality movement so it's not explicitly queer but I think this is a great social education tool. Yes, so if you want to talk about the combination of animation graphic design, lazy fact that is the like edit glance overview of issues and web design that simple info delivers I think you can also just talk through this info team and ask about what's your rationale what's your design process to combine gender diversity advocacy with a translation of the DGT scheme and what are their media campaign is about this scheme as a social change tool and that's a very different angle as compared to the public education which we always talking about from the use of education approaches but these are social innovations from the social sector and private sector and I think they will offer very different plans as well so in that sense they are like means of use but they also have the DGT campaign to advocate for the use of education.