 Hi everyone, welcome back to our podcast from the Kamasutra to 2020, where we look at all your questions, your concerns, your worries around all things to do with sex and sexuality. And today Anvita and I are very excited because we have a very, very special guest with us. We have with us today, Dina Shergill. And the reason I say we're very excited is that Dina is here to answer a question that has been asked a million times and has been misunderstood a million times all about BDSM and Kink. So quick introduction, Dina is a kinky wellness and BDSM coach. She's a founder of an organization called the Partition, which promotes the benefits of kinky wellness and she works with something called aggression, imagination and attention. So hashtag AIA. And Dina, we're really, really happy to have you with us. Thank you for joining us today. Oh, thank you for having me. I'm excited to speak on this. You know, Anvita and I have explored this subject a couple of times and as Anvita will tell you, and I'm sure as you know as well, there is just so much misinformation around BDSM in most people's mind. It is, it's basically an anything goes platform, like, oh, I feel like getting violent. I feel like being stupid. I feel like doing anything BDSM is the way to go. And we've tried to say to people, BDSM is actually not a form of sex, it's a form of pleasure. And it's a very fine difference, but of course, you know, we can't always get through. So yeah, we are very excited to hear more about. I was just going to say that, you know, a lot of times the portrayal, especially in South Asian television or media is that the villain is into BDSM. And I would love to hear if you can just start by sharing with our audience, you know, what is BDSM and how it's about two people enjoying it together versus this idea that most people have is that there's this villain or this is this bad person who enjoys violent sex. And that's just the form of torture that he uses. So just to break that mix, can we just start with for you to tell our audiences, what is BDSM? Yes. So the misconception that you can come into BDSM and do whatever you want is far from the truth. However, unfortunately, there is people that come into BDSM that are unethical and they don't use the ethics of BDSM and kink. But unfortunately, those are the stories that always get told over and over again. And we rarely hear the power that BDSM and kink can give back to someone, the emotions that people can release. So I'm a big supporter that BDSM and kink are healthy outlets for aggression, imagination and attention. And without those three forms, self development is not possible. So when someone goes into BDSM and kink, one of the most strongest things that someone needs to have is self awareness in the sense that they know what their actions and behaviors and emotions have on the other person. And so when people go into BDSM thinking this is all about me and what I want to do, it's not. And it's agreement and it's a negotiation and a communication and almost this dance between what can we do so everybody can feel fulfilled through this. But not at all is it one of those things you come into BDSM and this is just my way or the highway. That's not how it works. So you say that you deal with BDSM and kink wellness. Is there a difference between the two? Yeah. Well, kink is a play forms that basically any society has deemed unacceptable. So kink can range from different places to different places. BDSM is an abbreviation for three subcategories. So the BD stands for bondage and discipline, which is used through a various physical or mental forms of restraints. So it can be verbally like, don't do this, or I can restrain you down. Then you have your dominance and submission, which are your play types that involve power exchanges. So you'll often hear doms and subs in this category. And then you have your sadism and masochism, which are the two subcategories for receiving and delivering pain or humiliation. And the thing about BDSM and kink is that I really try to stress the fact that I deal with just the basics of it. Everyone, I believe, involves in some sort of BDSM and kink. They may not be aware of it. So even if you take play types like hair play, you could argue that that's a very serious form of play because you have your open neck. You have your, like you can easily damage your neck, easily damage your hair if you're not doing it correctly. So it's really telling people, listen, you might be actively engaging in something you might not know the risks for as well. And reminding them that the basics you should know are really your partnership, your impact and your plan and prep. But it's not something that you see on a porn video or online and say, Oh, I see it now. I know how to do it. It's not that type of play. So I was saying to earlier then I attended a couple of workshops on BDSM. So I kind of just to get some information, but what exactly is hair play? We didn't do hair play before. So since you mentioned it, I just like, absolutely. So if you pull on someone's hair, that would be hair play. But if you a proper form to do it is you actually have to have your hands on the back of someone's neck and you, as your hands go up to the back of their skull, you spread your fingers out to grab more surface area to grab the hair. Because when you grab more of a surface area, you have more control over the head and it doesn't leave your neck going back and forth. If you're pulling from the ends of your hair. Also, this is just if you do take care of your hair. You don't want to break it. You don't want to damage it. The smaller chunks that you pull, the stinger, it's going to be on your scalp. The larger chunks of hair that you pull, it's going to be more of a study, more controlling. And so it's not necessarily the pulling of the hair, but you can use that as a form of directional. You can lead your partner around with that. You don't necessarily just have to pull. It can be a sense of moving someone from one form, one place to another. Wow. That's so much detail that I'm with a that's incredible, isn't it? Because, you know, we've had these conversations before, like I said, but never in this much detail. And that is really fascinating that even how you spread your hands to grab the hair makes a lot of difference. Aesthetically, when I see on on sexual videos, aesthetically, it looks good, unfortunately, when people are looking at the aesthetics of a move or a position, it's not pleasurable. It's not safe. And it's just for entertainment purposes. As in my head is rushing. I have so many questions, but I think what I'm going to, I'm going to leave some for later around emotions and what you spoke about. But I think what you say is really important is that it is something that the knowledge is not easily available. And in some ways, it's not even available in form. So if somebody is interested, where do you think is the best way for them to go and learn about it? And from your awareness, are these, you know, places are all globally available? Or do you think, you know, because I'm just thinking, yeah, in India, will there be some place for people to go and learn about safe kink or safe BDSM? Absolutely. That's a good question. I would say in the West, every major city has some sort of sex education that you can research locally if you wanted to. But online, like, for instance, I haven't one hour e-learning on the basics that the partition dot life, if someone wanted to come check out, but we do have the power of the Internet. And so more and more people are sharing this information, whether it's on social media or it's online. But the problem with this type of work is that it's easily censored. So as much as this is coming out in an educational fashion and I really do want to spread awareness, sometimes social media doesn't allow you to post as much as you'd like. So I would Google search for sure. But if you can always check out my e-learning or see in your own city. But for instance, sex clubs, it's not so much a place where people go to have sex as much as there's education as well. For instance, in Toronto, we have many areas or we have many sex clubs that offer classes in person demonstrations, terminology classes, boundary classes, different types of plays. So you can go and meet people that are very, very excited to share this information with you as well. Yeah, I was just wondering whether there are any of these in India? And I think that for everybody watching, if you really want to start off, maybe you need to begin with doing an e-learning session with Dana. Maybe that's the way forward because I honestly, I know that I keep getting messages from people saying that they've set up a BDSM group in Delhi or in Bombay somewhere. But I haven't personally checked it out, so I don't know very much about it. One of the things that I would like to now go on to, and it's something that you mentioned as well, Dana, is the triggers. Yes. So triggers are there's turnoffs where people might get icky or their sexual desires might go down, but triggers are way more serious. It puts someone in emotional, mental, physical shutdown, almost. They can go and through extreme emotions, intense emotions. And when someone says, how do I not get triggered through sex? I don't actually believe that you can be 100% trigger free. Our body is a mind field of repressed emotions and memories and so many things that when our mind forgets, our body still remembers. So even if you do go out for a one night stand and even if it's not a part power exchange relationship or with your significant other, it can still set off something. So part of the basics with the partnership is your aftercare. So that's a conversation that you would have with your partner about after the sex is happening. And that can help lower trigger in the sense that if someone knows what to do and how to take care of you, they'll be able to better assist you. But triggers are one of those things you can look at. Behaviors, attitudes, feelings that bring up negativity within you. And you can say that to your partner, please don't do these actions, behaviors or attitudes towards me. But really, no one knows every detail of your life. It's not even positive that you know every detail of your life anymore. So it's something to be weary of, but not necessarily scared of it. I don't want people to be scared of it, but it is something to know. And any form of sex that you have, regardless of its BDSM or vanilla, you really don't know. And another thing I want to make a point of on triggers is people think that it's when a massive boundary is crossed. But really, a lot of the times when someone gets triggered, it's it can be a simple mistake, it can be a miscommunication. It doesn't have to be a massive boundary that's crossed. But unfortunately, when a trigger is set off, it's set off. You can't it's kind of past that point of no return. So it is just be weary of those things as well. And they come up as you go. You might be doing something and realize, you know what? In the moment, you're like, no, no, no, no, I don't like this. I don't like this. Yeah. As in, there might be a lot that might be repressed that comes up. The theme are you going to listen? Is there I mean, I know that in BDSM, they talk about the safe words. So if you if something comes up, would you say, OK, really, I don't like this. And I guess you could use that word to stop it there and then. Is that sort of something that happens quite a lot? Because again, the one thing that people seem to know about. I don't know how much people will actually use it or not. Is that there is a safe word? And once you answer this question, I'll go into the next question, which is why you'll see what I mean when when why I was asking this. Yeah, no worries. With safe words, actually, I do believe that it is popularized. And a lot of people do know it. It is a word that one said stops all actions and revokes consent. What I'd like to extend further is that there's a lot of sex that you can't hear properly. You can't talk and maybe you don't want to talk. So it's important to also create safe word cues, which would be sight, sound and touch so you can make certain pitches, maybe a pinch with nails and without nails as a different differentiation between slow down and maybe speed up or whatever you want to do. And and dropping things, for instance, if you're holding something in your hand, this will only work if you have a hard surface, but if you drop something and it can make a sound off the bed or off the floor. But it really needs to be further than your word. And it needs to be intentional. Safe word cues are part of your conversation. So if you're throwing them out or or you make two cues that are too similar, it can be distraction and it could be complicated and just not clear in general. So, yes, safe word cues and safe words are definitely you can't go into a BDSM and King scene without negotiating these and establishing these first. But I do want to make a point that it should go further than just just a verbal word. That is really good advice. Amita, have you ever kind of thought of it? I've never really thought of it in terms of like we think of safe word. We're told constantly safe word. And I think what has really become prevalent now is consent with BDSM, right? Like everybody speaks about how to learn about consent and what it means to be, you know, really seeing consent being acted out in behaviors, BDSM community is the one leading it really. And that's where everybody should learn about it. So it is amazing to hear you talk about cues or, you know, and, you know, immediate stopping or, you know, things like that. How much time and effort must have actually gone into talking about this before you start? So how much communication it needs before you actually begin? That is really incredible. Because I think in heteronormative general, like you said, vanilla or normal in inverted commas, regular sex, whatever you want to call it. I don't think there is this kind of communication in any other kind of sexual bearing. It's this seems to be at a whole different level. That's really interesting. So I wanted to ask this question in particular. I had this email from a young woman who was about to get engaged at that point. And she said that her partner wants her to experience a lot of pain. So he wants her to go and get injections. He wants to watch her going through certain things. And then she went on to say that the thing is that he wanted to be my first partner, but he's not because I've had sex before. And he was very, very upset about that. Do you think he's trying to punish me? That I've had sex before. And I was just thinking like this is what I mean from what you're saying about that level of communication that exists and then people who are sort of jumping in and saying, I'm going to be married to you. I'm going to have sex with you. You don't know anything about what I'm talking about, but this is what we're going to do and there's going to be a lot of pain involved. And it's just clearly very wrong. I mean, there's a huge breakdown of trust and communication over here. What would you say to people like, how do you approach this? What is the point of conversation? To hear someone say, I'm going to impose pain on you. That sounds like someone's coming in very much imposing his will on to her. That is I wouldn't. That's not ethical BDSM and kink because really it's coming to your partner and saying, first, I would like to explore these avenues and you can outline what you would like to do and they can listen and tell how they feel about it. Not necessarily like, oh, I'm coming in and I'm going to make you feel pain. I'm going to make you do these injections. No, that's not part of it. Part of the partnership basics is your interview, your aftercare and your negotiate and your desired outcomes are a big one. So if they want to experience pain and you don't, you don't have to, you don't lower your standards for someone else. Like if you don't want to do something, that's the whole point. You don't have to. That that's part of the negotiation of which the boundaries and the limits are. And so boundaries and limits, I'm sure it talks about a lot with BDSM as it should, but there's a difference between hard boundaries and soft boundaries. So if she doesn't want to experience that level of pain, that's a hard boundary. But if she says, you know, if we're at home and you can kind of play with me a little bit more rougher, kind of if the situation is right and the circumstances are right, then you can agree to push on them slowly. And that would be a soft boundary. What I was really fascinated by how you see kink wellness or kink with emotions. And you spoke about a lot of emotions at the beginning where there was aggression, there was attention there. You spoke about humiliation, you spoke about pain. And and I was just wondering if you can help the viewers understand how do you see emotions and BDSM and what's that marriage like or what do you think that relationship is like and what are the things? Absolutely, I would say that attention would hold a lot of that for emotion. Depending on how we were raised, the type of attention that we have has the ability to make us or break us to build us up or tear us down. So if you're raised in a household where some of your emotional needs were not met, you can use BDSM and kink as the form to replenish those and build those self-esteem or self-confidence back. It's a good place to find self-worth if that's the intention that you're using sex. So when it comes to sex and sexual healing, you have to be intentional about it. And in being intentional and asking for what type of attention that you want. And so a lot of people will think, oh, BDSM and kink is just people going in there and hurting each other. But really, it's it's people acting out other versions of themselves. Like an imagination is a big one. Imagination allows you to connect to the other versions of yourself that you don't show on a day to day, and we shouldn't suppress those other versions of ourselves. We need a safe area, a loving area with someone that we trust, where we can showcase these sides of ourselves because it allows you to integrate different parts of yourself and you can live within this wholeness that sex can give you because we do have aggression. Aggression is a natural human emotion that we all have. It comes up when we need help, when our boundaries need to be withheld. But also, I don't want people to think that they can take their aggression and go on the flip side and be super angry about it. But I don't want people to lose their aggression entirely. If you lose your aggression, you can't hold boundaries. You are more easily swayed by the opinions of others. It is needed for yourself development. And somewhere along the way between being a child and being an adult, we had ample opportunities to exercise these three attributes. But as adults, aggression, apparently, we're not allowed to have. We're not allowed to do anything with it. We're going to have to pretend like it doesn't exist. Imagination, I feel like people, they get too much into their cycle, their routine, it starts to disappear on them. And you can be unable to think of problems that you can solve on your own if you had imagination and, of course, attention. It's good to give attention, but also receive attention. So it's not it's a give and take that we have with our partner. Are there some that are more popular things within BDS and that most people try? And is it sort of like, is there like a starter kit almost where you kind of go into it saying, well, I'm going to start with this and then going to go on to that? Yeah, absolutely. So with impact, I would say that when you're first getting into impact play, paddles, for instance, are really good to use because they're flat. They're easy to carry. They're more on the basic side. Ropes is not something that I would ever give to someone as a basic. I think that people jump the gun. It is very beautiful to look at when you look at Sharabi, but it's really dangerous and you really need to know how to get out of them or have your safety shears nearby. But paddles, I would say, is a good one. If you want more kink, easy ones is a collar and a leash to establish dominance. Bring your partner around the room. These are all easy things you can get from either online or at your adult store near you, but imagination, you can turn just ordinary things into role plays. And you can, even if you don't want to buy anything anymore, a lot of paddles, as long as it's a flat back and there's no splinters or things that could cut you, just make sure that there's no edges. Then, yeah, you could use that for a form of impact, for sure. So paddles as in spanking. Yeah, spanking. So spanking is very popular. Slapping in various forms is actually, I would say, popular chest slapping is one. If you were going to go into impact. But I would say that right now it's being popularized with the collars and the leashes. I do see that. I feel like I see that a lot in the media. And I do think it's beginner friendly because it takes away the seriousness of sex. It can go back to a very playful, very fun, just forget about the outside world for a moment. And that's what we need. We need to give our brains a break from the routines that we give it to really recharge it. I also want to ask on the same level, what is do you have a couple of examples of some of the more extreme ones that you come across or seen or read about just to give people an idea of the spectrum? I would say blood play to me can get pretty extreme in the sense that when you pierce someone, there's a lot of danger. As long as you're keeping your tools clean, people also can see that. And just the sight of blood, I just want to make a point. People might think they saw blood on TV and they'll be OK with it. But when you see blood in real life, it has a totally different effect on you. So if it's not a beginner friendly play, not at all. But even if you were thinking of going there, you can pretend by using fake blood at a store or something like that. But I would say that that is definitely one that I would put on the more extreme side, depending on how far you take it. Yeah, that would freak me out. Yeah. I was how popular do you think it is in the sense of I'm thinking to normalize it for people? And what I did really appreciate what you said at the beginning is that everybody has maybe a form of kink or BDSM in their relationship already. They just don't see it as that or they don't name it as that. But it does get seen as a community that is a very small minority. And is that true? Or is it actually like quite normal and to normalize it and quite widespread? And what would you say? I think that it's definitely more widespread that people would like to admit. I do believe that it is much bigger than I believe it's much bigger, but people don't say that they're into it. So it does come with a lot of stigma that, oh, you're into BDSM and kink, something must be wrong with you. You must have something bad. But really what people fail to understand is sex is one of the last playgrounds where adults can actually play together. And so when you start criticizing and demonizing this, people do shut in on themselves, they do retreat. They don't want to tell their partners. But what's funny is we have this culture, at least out here, that you have this wild, incredible sex with all these strangers. And then when you are in a committed relationship, all of a sudden, you have to be this very relationship version of you and sex. You're not people fail to communicate what they want to do. But those those wants, those desires, those curiosities, they didn't go anywhere once you got in a relationship. So do you think that BDSM is best performed with two people who know each other and trust each other? Or do you think that it happens equally well with strangers? That's a very good question. I would say that connection can happen at any point. I do believe that connections can be made instantly, depending on what it is. I would say as a general, though, go with someone that you do trust that you already know someone that can read you better. The more that you can read your partner, the deeper that you can go. But it's something that needs conversation. That's the thing. When you first meet someone and then you're going to have sex right there or that night, you fail to even talk about what you guys want in the actual sex act, you just rush into it and someone's going to feel unsatisfied. And it can happen unsatisfied on an emotional level, on a spiritual level. And you could go home thinking to yourself, oh, like that wasn't all what I thought it was going to be. And you can start to question yourself and why you did it. And I think that if you just take the extra moment to have this conversation before you have sex, it doesn't have to be a contract in the sense like two weeks long or it takes months to make. It just has to be a conversation of your interview, your aftercare, your negotiation for sure have to get talked out. So that's what you call the prep, the partnership, the impact on the plan. Is that basically what you're talking about? So plan and prep is one of the basics that I think people definitely don't consider. So that's your space personalization and your kids. So with your kids, you have your aftercare, your safety and your cleanup kit. And when it comes to aftercare kits or safety kits, when you are playing with any type of toys, you need to know that the scissors or the shears that you have in your kit are actually strong enough to cut where you're actually playing. And so I think that people it might slip their mind because they're you know, in the heat of the moment, but these are all things that benefit everyone involved, everyone involved. Sorry. So explain to me about the scissors. I didn't catch that sometimes the scissors that we have in our kitchen are not strong enough to cut the restraints or the toys that we're playing with. So even if you are playing with like a hemp or sorry, a hemp restraint, you need shears or something strong enough to actually get through them should an emergency come up. Wow. Just so much to think about. I'm sorry. The other thing I know I'm with you bursting with a question, but I really want to know I've been looking at the feathers behind you. Is that feathers? And is that? Oh, yes. So it is a feather. So feathers is a lot of senses. So when it comes to sex, a lot of people will focus on the touch sense. But we have like you can use almost everything. I think feathers tickling to bring that back in the softness of it. So people think BDSM and kink is so hard, but it can be as soft as you like it as well. It really is just combining your eroticism and what you want to do with imagination. It doesn't have to be very hard at all. So the question I had in mind and it's interesting, Seema is going with what are the types and I'm going with the emotions. That's just what we do. But I was remembering a question we had got and it had got a lot of like mixed reviews and it was about. I think a man had was excreting on a woman or, you know, urinating on a woman or something like that. Or even I think some had also spoken about coming on top of a woman. And there was like there was a lot of mix around like, is it humiliating for the woman to receive that? Or is it OK? And an emotion that that has really stayed with me is the humiliation that you spoke about right at the beginning. And I'm wondering, is that an emotion that somebody is experiencing? And they feel like they need to express it and they're stuck with it? Or is it like, do they have to like get it out of their system? Like, how does it get played in BDSM? With this case, I would actually argue are we positive that humiliation is what she wants to feel, because it could be a situation where she honor, like when you are in a submissive, you submit to someone that you feel is worthy of the submission. So at that point, she's really this is for their partner. This is a sense of release. Maybe she doesn't have to think it's a form of just letting go and letting someone take over the moment. And what's hard about BDSM and Kink is it looks very, you know, humiliation, anger, aggression, but there's these really other feelings and emotions that are behind those that don't get talked about enough. So, yes, maybe she likes to be humiliated. Maybe that was what her goal was. But it might also be a form of this that I'm giving my power up to you. I trust that you won't hurt me. I trust you won't take it to a place where we can't come back from. So if that's and it's really harmless, no one's getting hurt in that act at all. So I would say that's perfectly OK. How people interpret it tends to be different than what the actual act is trying to build. But, you know, for what you have really taught me to look at it differently is that about how expressing your emotions through sex is so essential because we might be feeling emotions, but sometimes we can't express it in words and we can't, but, you know, if we can express it in actions in some ways and we feel stuck with an emotion and we just want to feel it, that can be done sexually. And that's really what you're talking about. And I'm going to really take it as a big takeaway from this conversation. Just the thought that kink and BDSM isn't just a random sort of thrash around, slap around, but the fact that you're looking at things that you feel inside you and this is like a safe channel to express them. Yes, well, I actually think that the emotional and mental and spiritual elements of sex has been intentionally left out of the conversation when we do talk about sex, because we talk about mechanics of it and we do talk about health. We do talk about STDs, STIs. That's wonderful. But when we start to realize that our sexual health is connected to our mental and our emotional health, then we can start to break down this conversation of sexual wellness is a major part of our wellness. And it's connected to so many things that sometimes it can be almost overwhelming of it, but it is something that because it's so different to each person, it can be very difficult to have a blanket statement about this. But we all share universal feelings that need to come out. We all share aggression. We all share some sort of jealousy at some point until we can work on it. But even that, sometimes it's fun to just play a role of jealousy. Sometimes it's fun to play these other emotions and feelings that we're not allowed to play outside. So I actually had somebody say to me recently, she's exploring quite a lot of stuff and she's certainly exploring a lot of domination stuff. And she said to me, the one thing that really bothered her, however, that she couldn't deal with was the humiliation. And I was just wondering, because again, I think a lot of us, a lot of people go into this without any knowledge or understanding or teaching. So if you have somebody come to you and say, well, I tried this, it really bothered me. Would you have some kind of advice to help them ease it into it? Like, how would you ask them to look at it? If they were struggling with certain type of emotions, I would probably ask them to start with self-reflection to before you go any further on the physical. If something already is giving you an icky feeling, don't push it. You're probably going to push yourself into a trigger. There's probably something that you haven't, that you don't remember. Maybe you were humiliated somewhere in your childhood or at some point. And even though you forget that memory, your body is remembering the same sorts of feelings that was coming up. So before you go down the sexual road for that, I would definitely say, just sit, meditation is a big one. I think that people forget to take time to think about it. What they actually like in general and when people actually do take the moment to think, what do I like in sex? You give yourself a permission to think about the stuff you don't like in sex as well, because there's a lot of stuff on TV that people are, oh, I see it. So I must like that version of sex. And that's not true. That's not true at all. I was just in my head, I was thinking, the feminist me was thinking, what an interesting play area to actually experience power for women as well, because I think when do we actually experience power? So if we are in the position of dominance or in the position of power, but I was also thinking, does that freak people out? Like suddenly experiencing power and being in positions of power? Does that freak people out? And at the same time, is it liberating to actually experience it finally? I would say both. I think when you're being liberated for the first time, it can be scary. And you just because it's an unusual feeling to feel in control and a lot of people don't actually know what it's like to feel totally in control of one moment. We live in a world where a lot of people work for another person, a lot of people rent. So you have all these outsourced to people, these invisible things that are above you that causes you stress. And so when you do get that one moment to be in power, then yes, it could be equally freaky and equally liberating at the same time. I think it's a fascinating moment. I can imagine the moment. Yeah, we just need to get you some really nice letters and leashes, I think. I think we both need to go out shopping. Yeah, basically, it sounds like a great idea. Sound, I know that you are a great proponent of sound. You feel like sound sort of giving into the idea of making noises during sex is a good thing. I do think it's important that we reteach ourselves that the bedroom is the one place you are allowed to be loud. We have been raised to be quiet, to sit still, to not take up space, to be minimal. And we walk very, you know, arms at your side. We sit in a chair where it's very contained, but sex is about moving your body. And when you're moving your body and taking up space, it also includes sound. Because like we said before, not a lot of things can also be verbalized. The body can speak through us. The sound releases a lot of energy, a lot of emotion, a lot of feelings. But for people that make sound during sex, I don't I want to make sure that they know that it's coming from somewhere genuine. We have a lot of women that I work with. I feel like they make sound when their body doesn't actually mean or want to make that sound, they're kind of faking it. But when you fake making noises, you're reinforcing someone to do something that's not actually bringing you that sound naturally. So but it's a mental thing. It's a mental thing to get over being loud. It's I find that that is one of the biggest hurdles. But unless you get louder, you express those things that are going through you, you won't be able to experience a full body orgasm in the way that a body can produce an orgasm. There's just so much to take in. I'm sort of really I'm getting I'm forgetting that I'm supposed to be interviewing you. No, thank you. Like I do think that sound is scary. Women like I do feel like they struggle it with more. And because there is also this, oh, if you're loud, you're like a porn star. But honestly, what I feel to that is you should sound more like a porn star than you should be very quiet or mute or not say anything in the sex. Because it's unless it's being intentionalized, you're intentionally doing that. But naturally, our body wants to be loud. Like if you look at the animal kingdom, a bonobo eight can be heard miles away. Like animals make sound when they made it. We have animals that even make sound to mate with each other. So sound is very, very dear to us singing things like this. Our body wants to sing, singing is naturally humans, even though it's not normalized out here in the West. I do think we should be bringing sound more into conversation for sure. I love the idea of people singing during sex. I mean, that might just be a lot of fun. I mean, it's taken to dry, right? Well, your body wants to make that body can make its own music. So I do think that it's but it's hard to say to someone you're allowed to be loud, you're allowed to say that. You're allowed to make the noises you want to make. I have a non serious fun question. I'm wondering what you think about Fifty Shades of Grey. You know what? When it comes to Fifty Shades of Grey, I feel bad because I didn't really read it in the sense that I read it either, but I read so many opinions of it. I feel that, yes, a lot of people gave a backlash for it in the sense that they didn't outline boundaries and it was very forceful and pushy. But what, again, it's what's interesting about it is it got so much backlash more than the pornography industry does. And again, this was just a form of education. I don't believe the writer intended to come out and say, this is how you do BDSM and Kink, like this was just a spicy book. And we have so many different types of novels that also have these types of things, but I think it's because it was also made into a movie that gave it such a lot of pushback. But the novel itself, I can there's tons and tons of examples that don't have consent conversations or partnership interviews or negotiations. So I think I don't think it was the writer's intention to come out and say, this is how you do BDSM. But I feel like it's become kind of the go to book if somebody is interested. You know what we were talking about the first steps in some ways and because it became the thing. And I'm just wondering if and also the relationship, like you're saying, there wasn't really a conversation. It felt the opinions I've read. I've also not read the book that he dictated a lot of how the relationship should be, and it wasn't something that was like power equal in the sense of in negotiating, not in acting, but in negotiating, it wasn't power equal. And that's what a few people had. But I thought it was an interesting question to ask, given people really see that as the go to book when they want to start or consider, you know. Yeah, to that point, even with the pushback, it's still sold millions of copies. It's still got on TV. So what I think is that, again, the people that did enjoy this book, they weren't voicing their opinion. They weren't saying I actually do like it because the noise and the opinion of the ones that were opposed to it were much louder. But people still bought it for an like entertainment purpose, not for education. Is there something, Dana, that you would like to do to us about? Because I mean, you have so much knowledge on this that something that you feel that we should know, but we don't know or we don't even know that we need to know. I feel like this message goes out for people in long term relationships or just relationships in general. I want to remind people that your partner's eroticism is owned to them, not to you. So you might not understand everything that they are turned on about. For instance, in Esther Perel, she says something about couples have the third and about inviting the third in to the relationship. And what I interpret that as is inviting BDSM and kink into your relationship. For instance, she uses an example in mating and captivity about if your partner likes blondes, go get a blonde wig and you can kind of play with that. And one of the the examples was the woman was kind of at first nervous about doing that, like, oh, I'm wearing a blonde wig now. Oh, is this going to is he going to leave me for a blonde type situation feeling? But in reality, you're now opening up the floor to having an open on this conversation about this and you're helping in pleasure for both partners. And it becomes this thing that you can do for each other. And again, that give and take about pulling and receiving and giving attention and bending and compromise. But we really need to keep that sexual imagination energy throughout your relationship, not just at the beginning. Yeah. And I guess opening up all these kinks within the relationship makes your relationship a choice rather than, oh, God, I have to be with this person. It sort of opens up the form of excitement every day. Yeah. Well, I was going to say, like, it's fresh. It takes work. It takes effort. I think people have fallen victim to the sexes spontaneous and that it happens on a whim and this fairytale ideology that we've built around it. But just like your health, you'll schedule a dentist appointment and your schedule a health appointment, you'll schedule an eye doctor appointment, but you won't make time for the emotional spiritual side of the sexual health that you can get out. So it's just reminding people this is part of your wellness. This is part of your self development. Take it seriously. It will once you start taking this seriously, you'd be surprised at what other avenues of your life start to become stronger, better. You walk confidently. You can look people in the eye. So that's the type of change that I'm looking to make in people. I think you're going to do it. I think that all of us are without me. You know, we all work towards exactly the same thing from so many different angles, just trying to tell people that it's not a dirty thing or a bad thing. But something wonderful, it goes through everybody's mind all the time. And we need to be able to acknowledge it so that it can continue to be better still rather than really bad and confining. And then the thing that I'm going to really take away is bringing back the playfulness in facts, you know, and that it's really kink or kink wellness or BDSM is more making our relationships a playground for fun and trying out things in every, you know, different ways of pleasure. That's something that I'm really going to go back with the playfulness of it. You know, that was just absolutely fabulous. Thank you so much. I know that you're all the way in Toronto and with the time difference. This is morning for you and we've woken you up really early. But thank you for coming on and doing this chat with us. We so appreciate it. It's one of the least known about areas it's the most experimented with because porn talks about it. Nobody really knows what's going on. People are jumping into it and there's just I have this real fear about where it's going to lead because nobody really knows what they're doing. But everybody thinks it's like it's the cool thing to be doing. So I think your work is just so very important. And I really hope that it reaches everybody and that we can make a real difference with this for everybody out there who has been watching. If you've enjoyed the program, do, of course, please like, comment, subscribe, as always, if you wish to get in touch with Dana. Now, if you want to just continue your kinky wellness education, Dana has a website called the partition dot life. It's somewhere where you can go to. And I think, Dana, you said you have some e-courses on this website as well. It's a one hour e-learning that you can get access to if you go there. OK, brilliant. So there's e-learning on this particular site. And if you want to stay with whatever Dana is teaching on a day to day basis, she is on Instagram at the partition underscore life. Of course, if you haven't caught any of these, don't worry, of course, because we will have everything down in the caption below. So you'll have access to all the details. But yes, Dana is your in-house, on-hand expert that you can reach out to. So this is something you really want to do. Don't just flap around and hurt each other and do stupid things to yourself. Reach out to the expert and get some real help. We have, of course, with us, Dr. Anvita Madan-Behel, if you need to get in touch with Amita for a consultation. Amita is on. I'm with Amita Madan-Behel dot at gmail.com. Once again, the email address will be in the text below. And if you need to send any questions to me, I am on info.cma.com and that gmail.com. You can write into me and we can see how to pick up those questions or anything else that you might want to check with. Thank you all for joining us. Stay safe, stay well and add to your lives this concept, the idea of kinky wellness, sexual wellness is extremely important for you. And yeah, Dana is on standby to help.