 I'm the executive director of Greyhaven's philosophy. Greyhaven's philosophy is a long month based nonprofit. We're a P4C organization, letter P, number four, letter C. And what that stands for is philosophy for children and community. So this is the first in our series of philosophy and COVID-19 discussions where we're going to look at the philosophical aspects of life during this pandemic. And we do philosophy discussions with children as young as three. In fact, we're doing books and big ideas story times online every Wednesday morning at 10 a.m. We're reading books like Why and Hey Little Ant that oh that does interesting things at my green screen and we get kids thinking and talking about the big ideas of philosophy. And the idea is that everybody is a natural philosopher, including children. Just think how often kids ask why. And questioning is sort of the intuitive way that they make sense of their world. And we want people not to lose that. We want people to think creatively and critically and collaboratively and in a caring way. And in fact, that's the four things that we're going to ask you to do in this discussion. So thinking creatively means putting ideas together in a different way, doing thought experiments, using your imagination, asking what if. Thinking critically means being committed to not only saying what you think, but why you think it. And being committed to giving good reasons, your best reasons for why you think it. And also being willing to have your thinking challenged by others. And being open to having your mind changed, which is so important in philosophy and in life. And then thinking in a caring way just means caring enough to challenge people's ideas. So there are two things you can do when someone states a premise. And a premise is a statement after which something logically follows. So you could either support that premise with your own ideas and your own evidence, or you can challenge it. You can challenge the thinking or the evidence or the ideas themselves. And it also means just giving people a chance to say what they think, validating their experiences. I'm not saying, well, I haven't experienced that. So your experiences are not valid. And also just making eye contact as best we can over Zoom and being aware of your body language. So it's so easy when somebody says something to roll your eyes or give an exasperated sigh or sink down in your chair, but that shuts people down. So can we all agree to do that for C's? Create a critical caring collaborative. Yay! Okay. And before we started recording, we talked about Zoom etiquette. So I think we're good to go. Let's do some philosophy. All right. And so the first thing I want to ask is what your experiences have been like since you first heard of COVID-19? And how your life has changed over time since you first heard of coronavirus or COVID-19? It's been a really interesting ride, in part because it's like the first time I'd actually, like when I was hearing about it, I don't remember when I first heard about it. But when I realized that like other people were paying attention or just like knowing about it was when I was at work, I work as a library page. So while I'm shelving, I just overhear people's conversations. And like each time I was out there, I heard it mentioned between people once or twice. Just people talking about like, oh, well, I don't know what I'm going to go to my travel plans and people getting just the progress of how we talk about it and what we learn. Because there were people like, oh, we know only like the elderly and compromise go get it. So we were probably not going to cancel on that thing. And then hearing co-workers just talking about they're like, I don't know how long this is going to last. So that was like a week later and they're like, I think my plans are going to get canceled. I don't know. When we finally were closing because, yeah, it was a serious thing that now it affected us and we're like, all right. So now it's been interesting just being at home and dealing with all the feelings. Library workers, I mean, I know libraries are close right now, but up until they were, library workers are on the front lines of so many things, like the opioid crisis. There are lots of library workers who have training and how to deal with overdoses. And it's just amazing to me everything that library workers do. But anybody else, what have your experiences been like? Well, my employer sent us all to work from home. So we've been working from home and I've been training someone for basically the whole time we've been at home. So I'm getting a lot of people time more than I would like sometimes. And a lot of on, you know, it's not just people, but I'm on and I'm asking questions and the whole time. So that's been interesting. And to people hearing people, oh, I have all this free time and I'm like, I don't have any free time. And some of my other social things have all moved to Zoom or online. So I'm doing more of those kinds of things too that I wouldn't have necessarily been able to get to if I had to drive there and go. Yeah, I'm an introvert. So I find it a little bit easier to do Zoom, but also just sort of vulnerable because I'm seeing myself and I don't necessarily like seeing myself. It's just nerve wracking. I think Rebecca might be having some technical difficulties. So we can go ahead and if Rebecca wants to share her experiences, you know, I can say it's been weird. It's just been surreal. I hear that word a lot. And I was deciding about travel plans. So my dad and my grandma died about six months ago. And I've been traveling back and forth to Texas a lot where my mom is. And I was going to help her go through my dad and my grandma's stuff. And it felt like that. So I traveled to Atlanta for a conference and a meeting at the end of February. And I got home and I immediately scheduled more travel in another conference. And then it felt like right after that, the world changed. But it was right on the cusp of everything changing that I flew to Texas. And so I ended up doubling my stay there. And then finally having to just rent a car and get home with as little human contact as possible, which was an amazing experience. And then I get home and, you know, it's about adapting everything that we do to being online. And just and then, you know, it's like everybody's doing zoom. And then it's like, well, no, the FBI says that you can get zoom bombed and like everything changes every day. And I'm finding that kind of exhausting. Like, oh, but one thing I do love is that every discussion that we've had is involved pets. So good to see doggies. I've seen dogs with cats and birds. And that's awesome. There's also been lots of glasses of wine. More than usual in philosophy discussions. Rebecca, do you want to share a little bit of what life has been like for you? Well, it's very similar, I think to your the experiences you guys described, you know, it it sort of first seemed very distant in China. And then, you know, you start here then Washington State was the first feeling like it's getting closer. And then my mother is 92. And she's in a, you know, nursing home, essentially, or Alzheimer's Careplace. And so then I was pretty concerned and decided I wasn't going to visit her. But she has she's pretty good with Skype. So that was kind of hard, though, because, you know, you just don't know what's going to happen. But they they seem to the home seem to do a pretty good job with shutting down visiting and taking everybody's temperatures and supporting the Skype sessions. So I was happy with that. Then my kids were had to stop school. I have teenagers. And so I just think I think for the first like week and a half, I kind of felt like it was good, it was kind of fun, you know, almost. And now it's feeling just a little, I feel kind of a little bit in limbo, you know, it's not as fun as it was at first, I guess. And that's, of course, I feel a little ashamed talking that way, because of course, there are people who are fighting for their lives and fighting for family members lives. And I'm fortunate not to have been in that spot yet. So it sounds like having your mom in a nursing home is a tough thing. I mean, even though there are Skype sessions, and I know we've all been separated from people we love, but I'm really interested in what you said about it being fun, because I'm an introvert. And I, in spite of the fact that I said this is kind of exhausting, there's some things about it. You know what? Pet background noise is always welcome. I love dogs so much. But there have been things that are fun for me. And, you know, I have like, with groceries, I've just made sure that I ordered some things that were like, you know, extra fun, like a nice body wash and some chocolate. And one of the things that comes up in our philosophy discussion is like, is the concept of pleasure, and what role pleasure should play in our life? And especially like, is it okay to seek pleasure while others are suffering? So what do you what do you think about that? Like what do you feel instinctively and emotionally and then irrationally? What what do you think about that? Well, I think for me personally, I feel little there's a little bit of guilt at first. But then, you know, I tend to think of guilt as kind of a not really the most useful emotion. I guess it can make you think, you know, can take give something more thought maybe. So I think as long as you're supporting, you know, the community's goals or, you know, you're doing something to help the situation, as in this case, simply taking the drastically reducing your social circles seriously. And like my teenage son, I have to, you know, I pry and ask him, okay, so did you, you know, how did you keep your distance and stuff to try to because he's 17 seem to be 18. So it's really just, you know, my work is pretty much done. I just have to try to correct. And I guess I think that we should enjoy what we can in life. As long as we're, you know, meeting our obligations that we are aware of, I think that's all we can do. Yeah. Yeah, I was really thinking like, you know, when I first I'm working from home to some and at first it was just I felt like, okay, good, you know, I've got this time we're gonna get some projects done and that'll be great. And then I don't know, it's like I woke up one morning and I was just like, you know what, what if this is my last week on the planet, you know, who knows at this point, right? And I was just like, you know, I should enjoy the day too. It's like, I should appreciate what there is to appreciate. And so I've been really being trying to be more cognizant of that and just, you know, getting outside and enjoying the weather and, you know, just and just what I do have because I know that a lot of people are really suffering right now. I mean, for various reasons, you know, sometimes it's just economic, but it's like, that's a big deal. And it's very stressful. So I, I'm super appreciative that it, you know, at least for the time being, you know, we're fine. My family is fine. And, you know, like I've been missing my parents because I don't, I just don't feel like I can go see them. I just, I can't take the chance. But, but, you know, what I can appreciate, you know, I can still talk to them. And we're still able to, you know, to talk to our friends and that sort of thing. But, but I think at first everybody was so busy, busy, you know, like, and I, that's what I feel is happening this week. This is kind of week four for us anyway. And it's like, I feel like, like, there's like no work being done. Like all my emails are people posting pet pictures, plant pictures, patient pictures. We need that. Exactly. Like, I wasn't even minding the, like the first week to like the kind of build up before that because there was kind of this chaos, this major chaos time of Wednesdays first happening. And I felt like I could actually flow with that easier and kind of just be like, you know, this is happening. I know what I have to do, which is just, you know, wash my hands or touch my face. And so that last day of work where everyone was in the library getting their book supplies, which was a hilarious thing because we didn't know how long this would last then. Like, it was kind of like the beginning part. We were in the naivety that I would just be like two weeks, literally it'd be two weeks. And so we were like, oh, everyone just getting their giant stacks of books. Now I'm just like, no, everybody knew. And for that time of the major chaos, I felt like I actually was moving like better. And then week two, it was just really up and down and three was leveling out and getting bored and four is just kind of bored. But you know, I'm like, I'm thankful that it's just boredom I'm dealing with like, out of everything. That's fine. You know, I'm hearing so much philosophy in what you're saying and so many things that philosophers have said in the past, like, I mean, just like memento mori, like remember death and like that gives like zest and presence and, you know, maybe even intensity, or it just makes you appreciate the life that you have right now. And then like there's, you know, people think that Epicurean philosophers were like hedonists, like when you say like Epicurean, people think of like, oh, gourmet food, you know, whatever. But actually, they were about appreciating what you have, like having your basic needs met and just really that that was where that was where all pleasure and all happiness came from. And even if you don't have your basic needs met, you can remember a time when you did. And I want to hear from you, Lysal, too, but I want to throw the other question out there. Like, how do you think, do you think that this is going to this kind of appreciation that we have now for like, oh, it's so great to be able to just sit down on the couch and eat some chocolate and watch this movie and not take it for granted? Do you think that's going to continue? Do you think that'll, that'll last after this is over? Or do you think people are so adaptable that once where things are, we're not social distancing anymore, that we'll just forget all about it and take things for granted again? Thoughts? I think that when we're able to go out more, people will get out and the time will disappear. All that extra time we have will be refilled with other things again. Yeah. So I lead a team at work and I've been, we've been meeting every morning for about a half an hour. And we just chat, chit chat, basically, just to kind of reconnect with each other. And I hit, today I heard a lot of, how long do you think this will last? That seemed to be on everyone's mind. How long do you think it'll last? I mean, I'm asking all of you. I'm hearing like, at least, I'm hearing things like, we've canceled all our programs through May. So, I mean, they're already that it was just sort of looking forward and just thinking that we may not open until June, which I know it's hard for me to believe because I'm just like, at first, you know, yeah, ours was, well, I think it first ours was four weeks, I did say four weeks, but, you know, that would have been the end of this week, which is obviously not going to happen. So, and even that, I thought, wow, that's a long time, right? But yeah, I mean, I think everybody's getting a little stir crazy, but I really feel like it'll be the end of May. I think the, I've heard the end of May, or maybe even June. You know, I think it'll be a little bit like, you know, the Great Depression, people that who live through situation affected them for the rest of their lives now and psychologically and the scarcity. And do you see what I suspect that will be, will be the generation that had this, you know, experience. And we don't know how short or long it's going to be because it could be these two to three months. And then it could have to happen again if we aren't able to manage that, you know, get the right testing and contact tracing. And so it could be, you know, more than just a few months. I kind of feel like towards the end of May, beginning of June, things will relax a little bit. But I think they'll still be, you know, trying to keep your distance. But we can start opening things again. And then I think you're right. I think it's going to come back in the fall. Well, I think it depends on if we are able to get the test to see who's been exposed and who has immunity and who hasn't. And then we have to be able to, you know, protect certain people, certain people, vulnerable people that haven't been exposed so that. I'm hearing uncertainty. And what I'm wondering is, like, how you live with uncertainty. Not well. Yeah. Yeah, me, me too. I think we're getting better at it already. Yeah. I mean, just for us, it's like we're, I just feel like I'm, we've been so blessed, like just for food. Alex and I were talking about this, just how, you know, I never really had to think about it, you know, and what a blessing, you know, our groceries so close, we just went out to the grocery every other day and go grab a few things. And so now we're really having to think about it and like, oh, where could we, where could we find this? Or where might we find that? We're just, what do we do with the ingredients we have? Well, what do we need to stretch? Right. And how, and we've been really good about, like, not throwing away food. Like, we've been eating everything we have, keeping really good track of it. So that's been a different experience. I guess that's one way that we were dealing with uncertainty is just by planning it as much as we can. Yeah, planning for what you can plan for. Because so some of this is very odd to me is how we have a lot of experts in everyone that tells you like, well, you should come up with a really strict routine and then follow plan and make that through. And I feel like I haven't been able to make any kind of plans because I just feel like since there's new information every day that I can't relax into a plan, no, it's just like, what's the point in planning if I just had to keep redoing it and using all my brain power to replan a new plan, the point where I'm trying to take it day by day with just whatever comes through to do and to try and sit in certainty a little bit, not push it. Because I know for me that if I just ignore how uncomfortable and fearful I'm getting, that it makes it so much worse. And I'm like, all right, we're going to journal for a long time and release a lot of stress and realize what some triggers are and work on that. Oh, I bet it will be so fascinating to go back years from now and read your journals and for your kids to read your journals. If you have kids and I have other thoughts on uncertainty. Well, I think that this kind of situation just makes you aware of uncertainty because it really is. Life is very uncertain, is uncertain. I mean, I guess there's some uncertainty all the time, but we're not always aware of it. We don't always think about it. Is it, is it feeling like we're giving up even the illusion of control over our lives? And it strikes me, you know, you hear a lot, we all pay lip service, I think, to being present in the moment. But it strikes me that one of the ways that we make meaning out of our lives is by our past, like who we were and who we think we are now and who we intend to become. So how is this, is this changing like what your life means to you, like the meaning of your life and how you're making meaning out of your own personal history and your ambition? Well, I feel like I'm getting something I feel like I really wanted, which is less busyness, you know, but at the same time, it's, you know, is somewhat uncomfortable. But, you know, even like having my children right now, they're with their dad, but they're with me most of the time. And, you know, they're like, especially my son is kind of pretty vocal about his being tired of hanging out with family, you know, I'm sure everything when you're a teenager, they're everything. Yeah. So, so I think just because there's less to distract ourselves with, you know, I, there's not, you know, I don't have the commute to work. So I'm working from home. I also don't have the commute. I do meditation on Tuesday evenings and that's now by Zoom also. So there's like, and then there's the time with my children, which, you know, some of it is special and then some of it is a little trying, you know, and just like time with myself that I have, you know, sometimes I'm starting to feel kind of like, you know, you know, like lost a feel a little bit of a feeling of being lost. So, so I'm trying to balance, you know, kind of journaling with that and feeling that. And then I do do a little bit of escape. I have done some Netflix binge watching and slept in, took a couple naps. Good for you. And what? Oh, it took, you know, took a bath in the middle of the day, which I often on Sundays is something I like to do sometimes. I want to quote a Smith song like every day is like Sunday. It is. I mean, so I'm hearing a lot about how time feels different. And I'm having that experience. Like I was I was planning is that we are as an organization, Graven's philosophy's first response to this was to just start planning things, you know, we canceled everything that was in person and we started planning online discussions. And so many dates have prepped up on me because time just feels different. I don't even I'm not going to say it doesn't feel real. Like I'm aware of time passing, but in a different way. It's hard to remember what day it is. And I just think, wow, I, I suggested I said I would do that five days ago and I haven't gotten to it yet. But it feels like I've been really busy. And it is. So I'm, I'm curious, like if this is, if you're having a similar experience and also if this is, this is a huge question, but is this changing or giving you different thoughts on the nature of time itself? You know, that's the kind of like I'm Alex endeavor laughing that you're regulars, you know, that's the kind of question I asked. What is time? So speaking of time, I have to go because we have another thing just later this evening. And I need to get us all dinner before then. So I'm going to drop and you guys have fun and I will catch up with you the next time. All right. It'll be good to see you next time. It was good to see you this time too. Yep. Okay. Okay. See you later. Bye. Now I think about time is so interesting because it just feels like, yeah, what is it about the time? Because I have a really long drive to work and back. And so I should have gained like two, like two hours a day. So like eight hours per week at least. And then just the time that we've been, you know, we usually spend driving around. So I should have like all this extra time. And even though I am like working from home. So, you know, I am doing some, some, some work here, but I don't have to drive. And it just feels like I don't get nearly as much done. So I don't know what is that about time? That's such an interesting question. It's, yeah, I mean, I haven't been able to keep track of what day it is. Like I think either ahead or behind the day, like all last week, it feels a little more stable today. Like I haven't felt nearly as like, wonky today. But for the past week, I was like, I don't know what day it is. I don't know what time it is. But some of it was just, I was reading an article that was talking about how part of it, the reason that we don't have more time is because we literally don't actually have more time. And that either it's because we're like working from home. So that's taking up the time, but just like the energy of being at home and the energy of like knowing everything that's happening and like keeping up with things. That's like taking up the same amount of time that everything else would have. So it's not that we actually have more time. We literally are using it in just different ways. And a lot of that stress takes up all your energy too. So that just like takes out some of your time as well. And I'm like, you know, it's okay to give yourself permission if you're not getting things done because there's literally not that much extra time, I feel. That makes a lot of sense. And I think especially for people that have kids at home, like which, you know, I don't have kids anymore, but, you know, they're doing like schooling at home and that's like, that's a lot of extra for them anyway. So that's definitely taken up some people's time. I want to ask questions about schooling at home, but I want to stick with the time subject just a little bit longer because, you know, one of the questions that philosophy asks is if time is its own thing. Like this time just exists in us and our perception of how things pass or is it a fundamental quality of the cosmos? Like is time real? Or is time something that we've made up or something that we impose on our experiences? Or it just happens to be the way that our minds are made, that we experience things that's happening sequentially? So, I mean, what so what do you think about that question? Especially given this experience that we're all having of experiencing time differently, I've used the word experience a lot in that sentence. What do you think? I always feel like I have no way to prove any of this, but I just, I feel like time is just your experience of your life. Because it's, you know, like if you're really, really involved in something, like something that you love to do, you know, you get very focused, it's like sometimes you look up, you know, and it's like three or four hours later and you're like, oh my gosh, where did the time go? But then, you know, other times your experience is, you know, where it's really, really slow and you keep looking at the clock going really two minutes just past, that's it. You know, if you don't want to do something especially, but so it does feel experiential, like it's, you know, a real thing. Yeah, actually experience time in a like linear fashion, almost like we're like just straight and narrow. I'll just go back to Dr. Gilmour, you'll be wobbly, time you want me. That's the whoopie answer to every question about time. Yeah, I mean, I think it's sort of tempting to think time is relative from the intellectual standpoint, but in reality, you know, we have a limited amount of daylight and then it's a new day, you know, we have nighttime and there are seasons and so time is really built into life on earth, I think. Maybe, maybe I am imposing that idea of time on those things, but you know, I can't just check out of time, you know, I mean you can, you can sometimes slow it through focus and like meditation and things, but not, you know, in a extreme sense, just I think in small stretches. Anyway, that's what I have to say. Yeah, and I like what you're saying about that because I think it's really like, I really enjoy like the cycles, like the cycles because that does sort of give you some way to mark your place, sort of your place in the world and I love like living here because there's, you know, seasons and so there are those, you know, the cycles, those rituals, those kind of things and yeah, if we didn't have like night and day, it would be weird, right? It would just be like, I mean, well, you know, we came here, we're here for that, but it's a, we do just kind of mark our time that way. Yeah, you know, I can't, I can't speak to it from a physicist's point of view, like either from Newton or Einstein. You know, I do think in some sense it's like if my hand is cold and I plunge it into a bucket of hot water, that water's not going to feel as hot as if my hand were warm to begin with, but the thermometer will read the same. However, I don't, I think maybe that could be like a reductive way of looking at it. So I am hearing the suggestion, tell me if I'm right, that time has changed or that change is not, would there be time without change? I don't think so. Do you think that there is an unchanging aspect of being or reality? I certainly think that if our first premise of, if there's no change, then there's not time. I mean, it does seem kind of reductive at the least, if nothing changes in time not existing. I'm like, that just seems like a reductive way to exist in a sense where it's just like nothing changes, it's just the same. Like, but yeah, just, so we kind of easily think that it's like time is an intrinsic part of living in some manner. I can't imagine no change. Like, just, I can't conjure that, like what that would be like. I don't know if there would be perception without change. Or if we would be separate from each other, I don't know if there would be anything like, I don't know, what do you think? That's a really good answer to a philosophical question like, I don't know, you know, nobody knows, we don't know. Philosophy is infinite, we're all going to keep asking these questions. Rebecca, did you have something? Yeah, I was just going to say that because we've been doing less and essentially experiencing less change in some sense, some of us, now obviously people who are getting ill or going to the hospital, they are experiencing more change, but people who are just not driving to work and reducing your trips to the grocery store and your main outing is, you know, walking your dog, you know, in the same area, you know, then change is slowed down and then time does seem to be slowed down, I would say. I mean, I guess time has changed even in the sense of measuring time because we measure time by the change on the clock or I don't know how atomic clocks work, but I'm sure there's some change or decay or something involved. I am so revealing myself as a humanities and not a STEM person. Not the philosophy is not good for STEM, it's actually really good and it's an important part of it. It should be STEM. Okay, so let's go from the metaphysical back to the more practical and the sort of social and political and talk about what is going on with school right now. We have young adult groups and we have a group of 6 through 12th graders and we recorded a conversation with them recently and one of the things that we talked about a lot was school and the fact that they're having to do online school and what that's like for them and at that point they hadn't started but as of our last discussion with them, which was last Saturday, they had and they were all a little and I'm sure their parents are all a little and I'm sure their teachers are like or maybe not because I'm sure the teachers are having to produce content and teach classes and it's never easy to be a teacher but I'm just curious like from a point of view, the point of view of what's best for society, how important do you think school is right now? Don't mean education, I mean school. I'm sorry. The structure of it might be helpful to an extent that it gives you something to be like kind of hold on to in a concrete way that it's like okay we're doing this for this time but if it's still the same amount of time that you would normally be in school I think it has the same problem which is that I think the amount of time that's spent in school for kids is a bit too long anyways to actually be the best way to learn so on that level I'm like it's probably got some about some goods and bads that are like So why do you think it's too long? I mean just for practical studies of like how humans learn that we only actually can get a productive amount of information in like six hours and that your brain just can't process anything really and so it's just like it's a lot so I think sometimes schools are like I don't blame you know we're just a lot we're trying to teach kids we have a lot of systems that we can't really just change and so it's part of that but one of it I think is just yeah that it's just trying to pack in too much into the time that they have and then doing because it's that every day and then going home and you still have to do like more homework and it's like and then there's after school programs for other things and so it's just filling your time all the time with things happening and so my kids are now they are still just doing their core classes and it's just like three to four hours a day of class and they're not even in a Webex or something for the full hour generally but so in a way that balance is working well for my daughter she's more of an introvert but she's also a good student so she's kind of likes this a little bit you know at this point she misses not having track after school so that physical outlet but my son's highly social so he's really missing you know actually seeing people more and I'm kind of happy with the way the school district is kind of taking the academics a little bit lightly um saying you know whatever you were at before you can work to get your grade up but you'll kind of stay as long as you participate you kind of stay at that level and I I think it's the right choice in this situation just because I don't think it's realistic to you know really be able to switch make this big of a switch and kind of up the ante or keep it that intense so but I so I think it's kind of a nice balance right now it takes about they've got an hour and a half for lunch which is more than usual and then you got one class after that and three before if they have you know first period and so um so I think it's I think they've done a good job at this point okay I think it's interesting just um the whole like just the structures that have had to change and then I think it's going to be interesting like maybe you know after we get through COVID it's just like what will stay and what won't stay because I think you know it's all like pointing out what's working what's not working and just other possibilities that we hadn't really considered and so I think that will be super interesting just to see like you know because like like you said like for for your daughter who's introverted is like I would have loved this school like that personally I would have loved us to do some online classes like four or five hours and then just had you know gotten to do whatever I wanted to do after that you know whatever my own interests were then um but I but I do know and Alex knows you know people who really loved school because they were so social and it's like because that's that's a really huge part for some people you know it's like even probably even more than any of the classes it's like that is the the draw so and that's important if that's that you're that kind of person so so for them it wouldn't be good then just to do online even if it could be you know just done that way so I don't know I'm just really I am really curious like as to what will be the the fallout from everything in the end just because we are already trying different things because we have to know but like what will it be like later yeah that's a really good question oh sorry oh I was just gonna say I think that you know certain people will do better in these circumstances obviously just like certain types of people do better in regular school and some certain types of people do better in online type situation and and then I think the interesting thing will be once we get back to some type of you know ability to be with other people be social you know what parts of online how we spend time online will we want to continue right I know we'll want to keep doing online philosophy discussions because I think it's it's important for accessibility because people who have chronic illness or you know certain disabilities um don't always want to do in-person discussions I have Tourette syndrome and I find myself taking less when I'm doing an online discussion mostly because I can like sit here and like tear up posted notes and destroy little things and have kitchen objects more than I can when I'm like facilitating discussion in person so I think it's important but I'm just really interested in everything that you all said because I also think that there's something to be said about having a social safety net because I know that incidents of domestic violence and child abuse are way up because in their home which is just being overcrowded and being stuck together all the time that's a risk factor for all of those things but it's probably there's a lot of things that we aren't catching because we're not going out into the world and sending our children out into the world but I'm also really interested in what you said Alex about how like you don't blame school because it's hard for society to change its structures that there are reasons and historical reasons that school takes place over the period of time that it does you know even if research shows that kids will do better if they start later there are all of these societal and historical reasons and then like Deb you asked like what are we going to like what's going to change what's going to be lasting change and Rebecca you asked like what kind of things of online life are you going to know what we're going to want to continue and maybe it takes something like this that is apocalyptic in the sense not in the doom and gloom sense but in the sense that it just sort of changes everything so or almost everything a lot of things maybe it takes something like that to have us take a look at what actually works and what doesn't work so that's my question is do you think this is enough to actually affect societal change if everything kind of goes to non-covid living um is going to be changed um inherently quickly but only because I think there's a lot of structures in place that are set up that really want to go back to the way we've been living but I think if anything that's been great that's come out of this is that it's really shown that people can change really quickly kind of the argument for our societal like things so you can suggest like well maybe if we did this differently and things would like change or you better make might work better and help you like well we just can't like stop doing what we're doing and then and just go over to this new system and like but now now it's like maybe we can just try something new and see how it happens because a lot of our structures are just kind of set up in this oh no we can never change it it'll all break down if we change it and it's like well now we're breaking everything down and it's changing so maybe that's just the way it should go yeah other thoughts on that so why do you think no go on did you want to ask a question now I want to hear what you have to say first okay I was just going to say that I'm planning a zoom party this coming weekend and you know I was planning to have like an in-person party that was my plan but now I am thinking that when I have other parties that I might want to have a zoom option for you know people to be able to join so kind of like you were saying with the philosophy discussions you know you will want to always have that and I did an online yoga class that was not just a recording but was actually live you know and that was really cool too that sounds really cool and you said you do meditation online that also sounds really cool I would be less afraid to start something new if we're not in person but then I understand that it's scarier for other people so I wonder if this is actually a different question than I was originally going to ask and that's what I love about these discussions is you never know where they're going to go like um so now I just forgot what I was going to ask oh yes I know um how adaptable do you think society is and why do you think it hasn't it's been so slow to adapt and then um just how like like I'm thinking about um employers who said that they couldn't do work from home options as an ADA adaptation and accessibility adaptation and I think they're going to have a harder time using that excuse now you know saying that it's too difficult or that it's your job can't be done this way but in general like in American society like what historically why do you think we haven't been very adaptable do you think it's something in human nature or do you think it's something inherent in our society or both I have some distractions here so you were saying um that's what in our society why is our society not very adaptable like to online type or any any change I think it's really just easier to to go with the status quo because I mean it's sort of like I think our discussion of time it's like because it's just easier to go into the flow of whatever you have set up and so unless it's something really that really starts to bother you in some way um and even personally we don't usually change until something hurts yeah yeah pain point um and so I think our society's a little bit like that too where it's just like well you know this it's mostly working you know things are mostly working for you know most of the people it goes mildly uncomfortable getting a little more like unignorable right and so I just I don't know it's just human nature I don't know but it does seem like it does seem like that is the way that change happens is that it takes it takes something for us to to change either to just to really shove it in our faces or some really big pain before we'll just stop and I think partly it's just people are really busy like you know we are like a busy society that is kind of our benchmark especially here in the US where it's just like go go go go go or maybe in the west um and so we never really give our time ourselves time to stop and think about things or how we might change things and I think some of our our change is also just brought on by kind of dragging it forward like no one was automatically or really not the majority of people were not automatically self-quarantining until until the government were like mandated that yeah you have to stay home now and as minimal as possible and like we first said that I was reading through comments there's a lot of people like I don't like the government telling me what to do or how are they going to enforce that or what's it going to be and then it was just like yeah because everyone decided or like you know everyone's decided to do it but it's like yeah so we're all going to do it and it's just like I think some of I don't know I feel like some change to be brought on has to kind of just be forced a little bit because I'm not sure because you know it's learning new things and going through all this has not been easy so it's like no one wants to change into something even if it could be better if it's going to be kind of uncomfortable and just unknown you're like well I don't know if it's going to work but I know how this works even if it's not working well but I know how it doesn't work so that's fine I think of American society is really tolerating in some ways a lot of change and I tend to think it has to do with the kind of people who came here being willing to take a huge journey and come to a place that's very you know different from the other countries and continents but I mean granted there are certain ways in which American society possibly doesn't change a lot I tend to think though like technology and things we've kind of embraced that quite quickly yeah I mean it has been interesting how adaptable we really have been I mean I think but I think you know I think you know with the push of this because like we we broke down our office like you know in a day and everybody was working at home right and we did have that sort of that whole question like you know who could work at home and who can't and now we all can so yeah so I think we can be adaptable and we want to be and I think we are an adaptable people we just don't usually take advantage of that I guess unless we have to or unless we just want to yeah that's sort of like the pushback that people say no I don't want to do this and even and even when this began you know I thought like yeah it's not that big a deal right I don't know why everybody's getting so hooked up about it until I really explained it and said like hey you know if you don't if you're out in the world you could be like you know infecting people um that can't deal with it you know like that don't need protection and it's going to go really bad and I think as soon as they really explain that as soon as people really understood that I think a lot more people got on board and I think that's I think that's been really lovely about this is that people really did respond to that and you know we really were starting to think about each other and like oh I get it you know we do have to do this so I mean that's I think was a real positive yeah I think being aware of our connections to others you know through the virus and um and then that you know in the meditation tradition that I mean they talk about interbeing that you know that there really is not the separation between us and other what we think of as objects or other creatures that that we have chosen to believe there is I think I am loving the flow of this discussion because we're going back and forth from the practical to the metaphysical a lot and I'm noticing that it kind of come full circle because we started out talking about um just how things are changed and how we're adapting to it then I asked a question about our concept of ourselves and when it comes to being a person through time like who you are in the past and who you are now and who you intend to be and how that gives your life meaning and then we started talking about time and now we're really talking about time in a bigger sense like in how a society changes and how we adapt and it sounds like all of these things are and they're all very complex do you think that's true does that question make sense I put it another way and just say um let me think for a second right now I think we might be more aware of ourselves um than we are than we usually are as beings in time because we're having a different relationship with time we might be more aware of ourselves as social beings because that relationship has changed and um we might be more aware of our obligations to society and society's obligations to us because there are questions like should I stay home is it safe to do this is it safe to do that what precautions should I take when I go out and then there are questions like how much energy should I put into my child's education right now both from my child's benefit and for the benefit of society what does society owe us right now so what should we be getting and economically so that we can survive and what kind of resources should we have to continue to educate our children and I'm just wondering if like how all of those questions connect like our sense of our being in time and our sense of our being in a community and in a society and not just being in time in the terms of the arc of our own lives but as beings in history because this is definitely I've heard um things that you've all said and Lysol who had to leave early about this being a historical time well I I really appreciated getting to kind of talk about the experience with all of you each of you um and so I agree I think that it has given made us more aware of ourselves in time and in our local communities because we've been you know it's not like oh I'm going to go there for this and I'll go here for this you know you get all over the place like we tend to do um even though we are going online in in that sense to get other contacts um and then yeah I think our individuality is our connection to others is more important to us right now than our personal you know individuality and and you can yeah I think you could really say that right now is kind of this um we've really been pushed into an awareness that pushes us outside of our own like kind of internal thought process of just like thinking about ourselves um especially because I think especially for Americans we have this very um just this pride and pride in being individuals and having individual rights and in word like you know about ourselves and celebrating that I think it's really highlighted um how interconnected we are and how like inescapably interconnected we are and how we really do affect one another's lives and how we live and and I think part of this is like highlighting that to do and I'm hoping that it makes it more evident and prominent for us to like you know celebrate that and to um hold that in a like a higher space of appreciation because I know that that it's not all just been like oh you know we're getting more aware and realizing things there's been a lot of like opposing forces that have also been really really bad right now um and it's just ones where I just don't want to completely ignore that where it's yeah there's been racism and people have been uh panic buying and and just and the people who just aren't listening I'm like why how is no one listening and being nicer I know we're afraid but we could be polite and misinformation and yeah all kinds of things I I'm just I really appreciate everything that you've all said though because and your willingness to look at things philosophically I think that's amazing and I you know I do think that this is a time of of more acute awareness for us because we're when you change a habit then you become more aware of of of of that habit when you change your relationship to something you become more aware of it and so it's really interesting to me and there's so much more that we can talk about like we could talk about the political and social aspects of this we could talk about government and the media we could talk about our relationship to nature and the arts during this time and so many other things and we only have a few minutes left so I want to say thank you so much again I appreciate you all so much and this really goes to show that philosophy discussions can be wonderful when it's just a few people we have sometimes we have philosophy discussions that are this size sometimes you have philosophy philosophy discussions that are 20 to 25 people we've averaged in the beginning we averaged about 15 people in our online discussions and then that's dwindled over time and I think that does have a little bit to do with our changing relationship to time but we will have these discussions every Monday in April and we'll be recording them for Longmont Public Media and you can find information about that at gray havensgroup.org it's g-r-e-y havensgroup.org and you can find it by clicking on events or you can click on the drop down menu under events and you'll see COVID-19 discussions and then you can also find information about it on our Facebook page gray havens philosophy again g-r-e-y havens philosophy where the name comes from is a long story perhaps we'll tell you one day and and we do welcome donations to support our work you can go to gray havensgroup.org slash contribute or you can text the words think to 44321 that's really easy to remember think to 44321 and we have some upcoming discussions I've already mentioned our books and big ideas story times for preschool and early elementary students caregivers are welcome to take part that's 10 a.m every Wednesday for 45 minutes every Friday we do fandom Friday philosophies stay that five times fast so this coming Friday is Dr. Hewan philosophy we've done Star Trek we've done Star Wars we're gonna do all kinds of things and that's from six to seven thirty on Friday and you can find information again at gray havensgroup.org slash events or on our Facebook page another COVID-19 discussion coming up on Monday these are intergenerational on April 16th we do something called contemplative reading so if contemplative or meditative practices are your thing this is a way to apply sacred reading practices to contemporary text Alex is really involved in this and you'll probably facilitate the next one that we do and that's not all you do for organization you do a lot but those are the things that I can think of are adding new discussions all the time so I really hope that you all will take part in those things and again thank you so much I've loved this the time just flew by and thank you for being willing to be recorded to Longmont public media and thank you to Longmont public media so any last thoughts before we wrap up anything you didn't get to say or questions you think that we should get to you next time I mean I think it's oh go ahead Rebecca no I was just going to say this it's that's what's nice about a small group is I feel like I got to speak my mind so thank you for for listening somebody just shouted hello downstairs I think that's our housemate yeah thank you um yeah thank you I've really enjoyed hearing everything that you had to say and I hope you'll you'll come again because we do have some that are small groups and we have some that are bigger but we always try to listen to everybody and I try to talk less but sometimes I don't do such a good job so any other last thoughts just it's really interesting living through it in a historical event and sometimes I find it almost like just super exciting um and then I'm like oh I want to do the reality of this and I want everyone else to have to deal with the reality of this so I'm enjoying discussing it you know that's so interesting that you said um I can never stop talking about these things philosophy I love to talk but we have a couple minutes so interesting that you said that it's sort of exciting because I keep thinking of something that I think is from the bell jar um Sylvia Plath where she talked about um something terrible happening I can't remember and said that there was a little bit of a thrill to it like when you wake up and the world is covered in snow and you didn't know that it was going to snow overnight and you wake up and it's like the whole world is upside down and I'm feeling that way too like there's a sense of wonder about this to me and that does not in any way take away my concern or my compassion for people who are suffering and I know that this is getting vulnerable populations harder um and and that's something that I'm very concerned about but I do appreciate the ways that it's bringing us together and I really appreciated the way that it brought this quality group of women together tonight so thank you again thank you very very very much and I hope we um hear from you soon and you can also reach me at info at great havensgroup.org g-r-e-y havensgroup.org if you have ideas for other discussions and I just can't wait to see you all again so have a great evening oh thank you okay I am going to stop recording now and then I'll say goodbye to you one more time