 Good evening and welcome to the November 21st South Burlington Development Review Board. My name is Dawn Filler bird I'm chair of the board and I'd like to introduce to you our members Stephanie Wyman Frank Coakman Dressed unlike any other time he attends just saying John Mosquitelli Quinn Mann John Johnston Charles I'm sorry Johnston here and from our staff Marty Gillies and Marla Keane This hearing is being recorded. Thank you for attending There are a number of ways to attend One of the ways is to attend in person as some people have done tonight in the auditorium and Other people are attending virtually online People can call in Regardless of how you attend it's important that you register your participation either by signing in up back or Sending an email with your contact information Through the chat chat box virtually or via email to M K E E and E at South Burlington B T dot gov that way if you ever want to take any action you will be registered as a participant Let's see okay first item on the agenda Emergency evacuation procedures so in the auditorium there are Two doors in the back corner in the event of an emergency. You would exit any of that either of those And turn left or right and you'll be outside Agenda item number two Editions deletions or changes in the order of agenda items hearing none turn turn to Item number three announcements and reminders so it sounds like some board members had trouble Accessing pieces of the packet our online repository has been down for a week and a half now if board members feel like there is a need items can be continued to another meeting Aside from the very next meeting. I don't think we have anything yet on the calendar So we do have some availability If only for looking at materials and making sure there's nothing else you want to ask and you know We could continue it as though they were closed But just in case if if anyone feels that way as we proceed tonight. Okay, let's see how it goes And if you have problems raise those issues and we'll we'll figure out what we want to do Anything else any announcements? I don't think so. No Are there any comments and questions from the public that are not related to the agenda, okay, let's proceed with our first Application which is agenda item number five Continued sketch plan application SD 2314 of John Larkin, Inc for an approximately 40 acre existing PUD consisting of 270 residential units in eight multi-family buildings a 20,000 square foot movie theater a 22 22,500 square foot restaurant and medical office building and a 3500 Square foot restaurant with drive Through a master plan includes four phases and consists of adding approximately 92,105 square feet of commercial space including a 110 room hotel Approximately 281 homes and multi-family and mixed-use buildings six homes and two family buildings Approximately five acres of programmed and passive open spaces and extending a city street at 1185 Shelburne Road is Anyone on the board needing to recuse themselves or make a disclosure Thank you, Stephanie. We'll see you back after Okay, thank anyone else Okay, who is here for the applicant Ella? Okay. Thank you Ella The light I'll turn bright green ones. Oh, there you go. There we go. Good much better Hi Greg Okay, so anyone else on your team. This is a Sketch plan a continued sketch plan, so we don't need to swear anyone in but is there anyone else on your team? You want to introduce? Well, Joe Larkin will be here shortly. He's just running a little bit late. Okay. He might all right Okay, so We are going to look at the staff memo which is very brief and then it refers us to items Some items 9 through 14 in the original staff report so Do you have any introductory comments before we start with your with the memo and then move on to the staff report? No, okay. All right, let's look at the staff report Number one after completing review of this memo staff recommends the board review blah blah blah. Okay. We got that Number two So does this pertain let me read it Staff recommends that the board discuss the impact of potential future uses at that site on the master plan and especially consider whether there are any uses that if proposed would require a master plan amendment or if there are any plausible building implications or expansions that would require a master plan amendment for reference article 15.8 point oh six e two outlines the standards for substantial amendment to a master plan What are your responses to that? I'm sorry. I'm a little confused. I thought we were going over nine well, I think the staff recommendation was to look at the memo first and then to move to the staff report so this is a question pertaining to Future uses and if there are any plausible building modifications or expansions that would require master plan amendment Maybe Marty can Sure. Yeah, so we we like prepared a little two-page memo just kind of summarizing last meetings kind of contents and Identifying any things that we wanted to discuss further. So just one thing that we wanted to bring up in this memo was Last meeting was the first time the board had heard of the plans to modify the palace nine theater to become an ice rink It didn't sound like there is a ton of I guess alarm about that But there was a pretty lengthy discussion about parking and what kind of constitutes a master plan amendment As opposed to just you know a change of use So I just wanted to flesh that out a little bit and hear from the board Kind of what their thoughts are so in the memo We have the the language from the LDRs and it requires full master plan review and approval for Any development that represents a substantial change deviating from the approved master plan and it identifies three ways that you could Represent a substantial change so I guess The one I'm most curious about is see here at the bottom Proposed changes that significantly alter the parameters and associated impacts of development at build out Including an increase in PM peak hour trip ends. And so I just wanted to get boards take on how they are reading that and You know how careful you as the applicant should be As you're looking to redevelop that movie theater site and potentially any other sites on the property moving forward Thanks marty I'm so I'll just say that one piece that jumped out to me as far as Potentially a substantial change amendment was the one that marty noted on the PM hour trip ends I think we discussed last time that it sounded like the movie theater was going to kind of Uh, or the replacement of the recreation center was kind of going to be less traffic less in the evening Um, so it seems like that wouldn't trigger and Yeah, that's correct And so you all seem pretty confident that that's what's going to be moving forward So I think We were just kind of looking for confirmation on that that In the awareness that if it does end up pivoting This this gets revisited, right? So If there is a use that's maybe still hanging out there, that's a potential that might trigger under this amendment requirement for something to think about and maybe kind of hold for Until that's like confirmed. So you guys don't have to go back and do an amendment So I don't know if there's other potential uses that you guys kind of Can state at this time or if that one's really the only one that's being looked at That's the only one that I'm aware of. Yeah, okay Thank you and the six thousand it looks like as at least as I read it You're leaving six thousand square feet of the Theater on develop on develop which holds out a pretty lively pretty real prospect of Some use of that space that will impact both both parking and Um, certainly trip ends Uh now But on on the other hand, I'm not quite sure I understand The staff's concerns. So it's vacant if they want to do anything with it That's going to impact trip ends. They come back. They as long as they understand they can't do it without An amendment to the master plan then Is it a concern right now? That's the question I have for marlin and joe larkin welcome Good evening. Yeah, I don't think it's a concern right now I think the increase in pm peak hour trip ends is the most black and white of all of those criteria a b and c but like for example b um proposed development that significantly alters um The pattern of development that's a little bit more subjective and sort of up to the board and so I just kind of wanted to You know flagged that for you as I think that we had agreed two weeks ago that leaving the movie theater building as is And changing the use inside wouldn't alter the pattern of development But I just didn't I wanted to make sure that you had the opportunity to speak on on what that might look like Um, if you wanted to but but they have not okay I mean, I don't want to drag this out You understand that if you want to do anything with that 6,000 square feet that has a trip end impact of any significance You're going to have to come in for a full revision of the first, you know for a full a full process for alluring the master plan and that's it That's the end of that discussion. Okay Thank you So let's any other comments or questions from the board before we move on to um The staff report not hearing none I'm going to find it And we're talking about starting at page eight nine through fourteen Okay comment number nine This is regarding crosswalks Saf recommends that the board discuss with the applicant the optimal distribution of pedestrian crosswalks Across they are road given the factors noted above We discussed this Oh, sorry about that. I think we discussed this last time We will be performing the traffic analysis for the project Part of that is pedestrian egress and pedestrian traffic At that point, I think it'll give us more information to identify Those locations. Okay, so we look forward to hearing from you in the future about that. Yep Great. Thanks number comment number Nine this is No, that's the same one. Sorry Comment number 10 This is about the turnaround Uh thoughts about that comment I can read it Staff recommends that the board confirm with the applicant whether the infrastructure described above is proposed to become public And that the board discuss with the applicant plans for compliance with the dpw requirement for turnaround So, yeah, I mean, I think we Intend to have real road become a public street. I'm sorry. We didn't hear what we intend for real road to become a public street Okay, um the purpose of it at the end is to connect into slip road, which will then Exit out onto route seven or you could loop back into the middle street um So there's not We didn't feel there was a need for a dead end turnaround um, okay Could you pull your mic closer, please without putting it in my mouth Um, I believe or what you have to say. Yep. I believe that answers the question I don't know as we yeah, I think what says this the blue comment came from the department of public works, uh, tom and I guess he was looking at the plans um in the phasing and was Thinking at some point we as the city will be plowing real road Just was curious like what the plans were in the interim to be For turnarounds for plow trucks um, he didn't note that There were any provided. Yeah, I mean I can we can look further into that with Tom, I'd be happy to work on that with them. Um, I haven't we haven't developed the construction Scoping yet at this point, but I think we'd be more than willing to work with dpw on that sort of thing Sure. Yeah, just wanted to flag that. Yeah, it's time to give that to me questions, uh, so the intention is for vehicle traffic To go onto a public collector road, right, which is real road And then exit onto a private road slip road, which can only exit onto an alley or onto route seven Yeah, or turn around I guess on real road and come back the other way yeah, I mean, I think there's many different ways to Move around those roads does it This is a question from marlin marty because I don't I don't know the answer Does it matter to us that is clear like in yeah, does it doesn't matter to us? Enforcing or applying the ldr Whether it's built the public road standards or not in other words that is simply Their call if they want a public road, they build the public road standards. Do we Care under the ldr one way or the other I think the city without an appropriate plow truck turnaround Would likely not take over maintenance of real road So there would have to be a plow truck turnaround sort of at the end if they were going to be taking care of only this stretch Because otherwise they would have to continue out on slip road out to out to shellburn road or as Charlie noted on the on the alley Um So real road does have to be constructed to public road standards But we may just not take it until it connects and that connection given Sort of the the status of lake view commons being that they have no interest in redeveloping that could be a very long time So if they would like us to take it over There's probably gonna have to be a plow truck turnaround Okay Marla previously I remember you expressing concern about the head end parking on slip Right, so we wouldn't accept a public street with head end parking um Queen city park road notwithstanding All right, I guess central have We wouldn't accept a public street with head end parking so slip road as they have it could never become public Which is fine Provided that real road is you know connects to something So I think plowing is a conversation we can continue with dpw Okay Questions Number 11 staff recommends the board discuss with the applicant the challenges and opportunities presented by the topography of the pros proposed neighborhood park And identify what changes if any should be made to the park design at the next stage of review Yeah, I think um, what we have here is is pretty rough and schematic or I can't hear you. I'm sorry What we have here so far is like just rough and schematic. We're we're happy to Think about other opportunities that the topography allows like, you know viewpoints with benches Connections between the different amenities Uh I you know, I think it's likely that the community garden if that stays would shift Um, so that it's not shaded by the existing evergreens. So there's there's definitely Work that needs to be done through that, but we're if you guys have any specific comments. We're happy to hear I can't hear you. I'm sorry. You're gonna have to pull that in I don't think I have hearing loss, but it's just muffled a little. Sorry Please Yeah, I mean, we're we're happy to hear comments from you guys if you have any specific input as we Go through this process, but it's We're it's just kind of schematically laid out for now. Okay any uh Comments about the topography at this point By topography you mean Essentially hills and dales or the lay of the land Was this comment for the community garden or for the pocket park? Oh, it's it's for the just kind of that whole That whole parcel there that starts with the community garden and then goes towards the railroad tracks That whole thing is proposed as the neighborhood park and I just Flagged that as sort of a, you know, interesting design and I wanted the the board's feedback on sort of What they saw there and if there was anything specific that they wanted to see different or if they were open Kind of letting the the applicant work Um and produce something I know that two weeks ago We had talked um about specifically the two water features and their utility and how they would function um and fit in with the site and so Jeff had, you know, expressed some interest in maybe exploring how to incorporate Those ponds into the park But noted that they was sort of limited based on, you know, their their use as storm water ponds and not really they're not like for paddle boats or anything like that so um Just kind of, you know, how to work with the park to make it, you know, less of a Hill with storm water ponds on it and more of a, you know, park that people want to be in And I know it's schematic right now. So there's a ton of room to work But I just wanted to flag this in case you guys had any comments or Well, what's it? What what is that piece of land look like now? I mean, is it flat? Is it elevated? Is it sloped? Yeah Jo Larkin I might recommend a site visit or a site tour for everyone. I think it's a um a real it's I'd say opportunity to really um think about design, but I It does have slope to it. It's but it's beautiful. It's got natural trees existing It's gonna be entering path down through it the ponds one of them is You know, aesthetically not great But the other one could be made to look and feel like a place you want to sit around I I would um, I don't know if that's appropriate But but I would think we'd do a site tour before if you haven't been down there It's worth walking down there. Well, which is the one that could be made into some petered one to sit around Do you the one that's closer to the green or the one that's right? They both are labeled existing storm water. So um, so the one on the left as I'm looking at it Frank is it's sort of a lower hill down. It's it's a frog pond. It's a it's a but it's It's been there a long time. It's yes I think it's I think there's potential there for um And I don't want to rule out the other one, but to my eye that's more interesting So would it make sense for us to do a site visit? Well, what will we contribute? I mean, that's the question better understanding You know, I mean geography. So there's a couple options. The board can do a formal site visit which has to be, um Basically this hearing this meeting would be continued to a site visit Um, and we would determine that date and time now and make that announcement Um, or the board could go out as individuals um, and you know at their Whatever between now and the next time we see you guys Do you think there's merit to do being able to be there and point out specific things? If so, then we can do it as a Scheduled thing, but if you think it's like pretty obvious what you're looking at I think it's pretty obvious. You just kind of go for a walk down the hill and okay see if you've got input I I think well, I mean Marty, have you been there? Have you looked at this site? Um No, I've never been down in row I was at on the feral site visit with all you on the the bottom side of that looking up But there's the area we're looking at. Have you have you been there? No, no All right, because I'm just wondering based on what joe said, you know, if you're walking out of the Park area and then you're getting to something Basically that looks I don't mean to be cute, but that looks like a sewer basically Then that that's not so desirable and we'd like to say I guess we'd want to see something done about that um In addition to making the other larger pond to the west look nicer Maybe some sort of thoughts should go into uh I take what you're saying joe is essentially a warning. This is not so hot No, actually I might be saying the opposite. There's a lot of potential to it I I think that we want to get it, right? It's a critical part of this whole development is to get this park It has to be this has to be done, right? And I want and particularly because it's immediately adjacent to the public part You don't want people to go like that when that's right And I you know, we're suggesting we do plantings thoughtfully around it and to make it better, but I um I see a lot of opportunity potential there. We would love to get input But I think for our community to this has to be done This is where we got to focus on this has to be a feel like a park This has to feel like a place you want to be so okay, so will we do we now have or will we see a landscaping plan that includes improvements to that near pond? That will be part of uh The phase one site plan Please be included in the preliminary bring the Bring the Microphone over so we can hear you Please um, so right now The plan is for that to just be a part of the phase one site plan submission We do have a couple photos of the area and we you know, we could get A little bit more detailed for the master plan, but I probably would well We're talking are we in sketch or master plan? We're in sketch. Yeah We don't have to push it any further. Yeah Okay, so there's plenty of time to see so I think what I'm hearing though Is that the board would like to see more details at the master plan level not at the not at the PUD level Is that fair assessment? Yeah, I would like to I would be for just us individually going there It seems like a you know easy spot to look at come with more details at the master plan level after we've looked at it With your proposal and first something for us to respond to after we've seen the site too So I think that would be a good direction Any other questions about that? So just to point it out This is the existing building. Oops. This is the existing building um so if you Go in here that there's sort of like a drive aisle He parks sort of in the back area and then you shoot straight down till you're past the back of the movie theater Then you're in the park. Okay. Just to orient everybody perfect, okay Thank you, and we're free to do that. Yes. Thank you All right number 12 This is about design standards and architectural themes staff recommends the board discussed with the applicant How specific the design standards regulating architectural themes and features for the various phases of development Should be at the master plan level marty Or marla. What do you mean by that exactly? You mean it's marty's Yeah, okay Yeah, so Give me an example what you're talking about right, so there's going to be several buildings proposed here, um, I guess my assumption and Looking at this project is that the buildings that are Near each other so the one that exists now the hotel next to it and those ones all over there will sort of all relate Architecturally and then the ones that are going in behind old Orchard Park The the new ones will kind of look like the ones that are there now Um tbd maybe on the micro units and the the duplex is up top um So we have a couple different themes going but they're supposed to you know interact with their immediate neighbors and um I guess there's there's pros and cons of Getting too heavy-handed at this stage Um, you know if we leave it like wide open then we're kind of spending a lot of time at each site plan We're going to have you know, maybe seven or eight site plans and we're going to be talking about architectural details We could just now Give them some parameters at the master plan level and say stay within this and we're happy Or we could kick the can to the site plan and review it at each site plan. Um, that's kind of Where we're at and that's the decision the board has to make at this time or I guess not at this time It's a sketch, but at real master plan you have to decide How much regulation you want to impose at the master plan level? So we're looking for some Uniformity but variation correct? Yeah, um Harmony we're looking for harmony I'm sorry frank. We're looking for a harmony harmony. Yeah So they just so i'm understanding at the master plan stage They do have to propose some design standards and but there's not like a A bullet point list of like What that might be it's kind of up. It's kind of up to you. It's up to you to decide how How in depth that list is well if they're going to need height waivers for example Should that be a master plan discussion or a or a site plan discussion? Um, yeah, we talked about waivers earlier and um I think that the thought was that we could grant the setback the side setback waivers at this time And then anything else would come up on us on a site plan by site plan basis. Um So that's kind of how we that's where we landed on the waivers I don't know if that plays into your thoughts on design standards, but Questions nope You answered the question You think that site by site is fine as far as our uh, yeah, because what what happens when we get to site plan Anyway, if they don't like what they did at the master plan, they're going to be It just right pro tracks things unnecessarily, you know What matters is when we get down to brass tacks Sure, you know, it's about this big and it's about this high more or less. You're going to tell us right Master plan level Then if there's a real argument, it'll be at the site plan level I think in in their pack though, they did provide like a architecture Character page, right? All generally looks like it's But I think Marty did a good job explaining kind of what we're intending to do Sort of those buildings up front match That area orchard park matches an area and then a little bit to be decided on the other aspects, so I would like to ask a question I guess most concerned at least initially well, I am about the many units on the Whatever you call them the the tiny units on but putting that aside so talking about the massive buildings Closest to Shelburne road Are you intending that they will generally be of the character and quality of the existing Corner building on the corner of failure Yes We use a number of architects, I haven't decided who the architect will be For the next phase, but Marcus Parkinen had designed the Resonance in and he's he is out of New Hampshire that he's a hotel focused architect But who was the fire can't remember his name. Who was the fellows in here who did who did the quarter one 1185 was designed by Greg rabbit rabbit architects, right? You're not going to use them. I haven't decided Because he came through I thought Beautiful building we think yes. Yeah Charlie, did you were you finished? Did you have any other questions? No, I was just pointing out that you know in their packet They have examples of what the structures will look right and look similar to what is there currently Yeah, I'd be happy to pull that up if there was a page reference. It's just loading really slowly for me There's a reason my packet that downloaded has 42 pages Usually it's 25 Oh, it's because I opened it in individual pdfs because it's a little bit faster loading Yeah, it says it's master plan architectural character Yeah, so I think I'd add is I agree. I think the building on the corner the bliss be building is done very nicely Um the movie theater is a box So I guess I'd be looking for more of what you did on the corner than the way the movie theater looks now as Kind of a barometer Do you have any thought of maybe Pressing john's point Maybe replacing the movie theater with Where you're going to keep the shell I think there's a I think there's a chance to Add some detail to the movie theater and bring it back to life I would love to repurpose that box if if um I think we can and we have some designs. I think they will be far. Are they in front of the city yet? Or are they coming in front of the city? We have the fourth plan. Yeah And some some renderings for that. We're happy to bring those to our we'll roll those into the next master plan. I think they're We're trying to bring it to the character of where we want to be We good Okay number 13 this is um Staff recommends that the board discuss the requirement for wetland delineations to be relatively recent With the applicant this requirement was included in the staff comments from february 2023 But was not highlighted in red and therefore may have been missed by the applicant So wetlands were re delineated by uh, dory barton's arrowwood in this summer Okay, good. Thank you The last comment is number 14 street design You've got it. What are your thoughts? Yeah, I was uh, I think we're very open to the idea of expanding the sidewalk north of building 3 to 10 feet to match Uh, the width of the sidewalk to the east and the the width of the rec pack to the west. I think that was a good suggestion Um, I don't know how does that fit with your your setback waiver request? We already had enough space in there to make that work and we just had to reorient some bike racks. So that's not an issue or I guess I um I think we are requesting Sorry, I understand your question now. I excuse me for interrupting you briefly but uh, uh, marty, what's the uh, What's the What are you calling a wide sidewalk? What what do we have? That we think is desirable In this area for a side for commercial sidewalks downtown sidewalks, so to speak Do you put a finger up? all right, yeah I think the rec path was 10 feet and uh The sidewalk in front of building one is 10 feet if not wider um, so I think there was We had spoken maybe two meetings ago about Or maybe even over email about um expanding that the one in front of building three to match the 10 foot width So and that works with the setback your after you get you Theoretically get your waiver. You can still manage a 10 foot Yeah, I don't think that'll be a problem. We'll prioritize that 10 foot path. Yeah Build a building to it Okay, is that what we need in terms of number 14 marty? um, yeah, I mean I guess we were just looking at the whole The whole street so sidewalks but also road width And just You know checking in with you to make sure that you felt that the applicants Wits and and speeds and all that stuff were You know Come into it with the scope of the development Board no objections. No concerns. Okay Great So that brings us to the end of the staff report So, um, now let's take a pause and ask if there's any public comment Um Please step up if you have comments Let us know your name please Kathleen Easton Holmes road and um, I just have a Comment and a and a question the comment is that in that Park area that has been sort of suggested at this time If the applicant when they move ahead with this In their more detailed sketches Uh Could indicate More about the storm water runoff and I know that that's a requirement But it seems like for those of the properties Property owners to the west where the recipients of all the water That comes downhill and and if the ferrule project goes through the larkin project goes through That park might be a good place for rain gardens and for other attenuating Um Features so that's just a comment now the question. It's a sort of a regulatory thing I heard you all discussing A site visit and they're very instructive very useful I assume that would have to be notified as a public meeting But then I heard someone say something about that the DRB members could go just on their own and walk it so I just From a regulatory standpoint. I was wondering how does how does that? You if you could explain to me how that meets the standard for site visits Would people be going one by one if you have up to four then does that constitute? A quorum because I'm sure you want to avoid any conflict with the Ethics standard that everybody has to sign about x part a communications And the public would probably want to be present so I'm just curious as to How you'll accommodate that Thank you. Thank you um Well, that's a good question um what What did the ldr's tell us about that? So I think that you'd be going by yourselves. Yeah, we'd be going by ourselves So it's fine just like any member of the public could go anywhere by themselves They can they're individuals that live in our community and can go anywhere by themselves But a four of us go as a four of us won't how about we pledge that four of us won't go as a gang I don't know how much you all hang out outside of the rb meetings, but I don't suspect it's Unless we know unless we know the society All those in favor of not hanging out as a group I think I would say we're all aware of the requirement And we know that we'd be violating the statute if we were to do that. So I don't think any of us would I certainly wouldn't I don't think any of my Colleagues would either. So I'm taking from that. We'll all meander down on our own And view the space Or not Or not Yes Are there any other public comments? Any online? No, okay Um It sounds like So board Do we do you do we believe we have enough information? um through the sketch plan to close the hearing and Deliberate on it And move on to the next phase I move we close the hearing Okay, so we don't vote on sketch Oh, okay So how do we decide to close you can you just announce that the meeting is concluded, right? Are we comfortable concluding? Okay The meeting is concluded And we will see you back here Next time for the next phase of this So the next agenda item is to determine when their master plan should be heard. And so this is a discussion So you want to open it and then the discussion is Given the feedback that they've received and um How much time do they need to? make adjustments to the plan To respond to that feedback and be ready to come back right because we can't hear both the sketch plan and the master plan At the same hearing so what so you want to start by opening the master plan? Just like you would read out the read out the project description. Okay um This is continued master plan application mp 2301 of john larkin ink To establish a master plan for an approximately 40 acre existing Pud consisting of 270 residential units in eight multifamily buildings a 20 000 square foot movie theater A 22 500 square foot restaurant medical office building and a 3500 square foot restaurant with drive-thru the master plan includes four phases and consists of adding approximately 92105 square feet of commercial space including 110 room hotel approximately 281 In multifamily and mixed-use buildings six homes in two family buildings Approximately five acres of programmed and passive open spaces and extending a city street at 1 185 Shelburne road so the I think the suggestion from staff is That we continue this to a date to be determined uh in consideration of our former discussion and um Set that date now, which would be what? So we had a quick discussion with marty Before the meeting of maybe looking at the third Week in january that meeting. I believe we talked about that. Yeah. Yeah, so everyone like the 2024 derby schedule hasn't been set yet, but there is a meeting tentatively scheduled for january 16th That'd be the tuesday of the third week in january They will be discussing the schedule tonight and it's possible that could get moved to a wednesday, but it would be also up that third week in january Okay, thank you. So, uh, do I hear a motion to uh Not continue to continue to continue. Okay I would say I would call it the second regularly scheduled January meeting mp 2301 To the second regularly scheduled meeting in january, which is around january 16th. So move. Thank you second Thank you john All in any discussion. No all in favor. All right. Any opposed? Okay, we'll see you back here on january 16th or Close to that. We appreciate your time. Thank you Um, and then for anyone who's watching in the audience Um, that decision on whether it'll be the 16th or 17th will be made tonight and we'll have that posted Um, if not tomorrow certainly early next week I'm gonna ask for a brief bio break. All right hold me back. So All right All right, welcome Agenda item number seven continued sketch plan application sd 2313 of boss babes llc to subdivide an existing 3.05 acre lot development with an office Into two lots of 1.24 acres lot 1a dash one And 1.81 acres lot 1a dash two For the purpose of developing a 9100 square foot of veterinary hospital unlot 1a dash two at 10 mainsfield view lane Are there any recusals or? disclosures Who is here for the applicant? Dave marshal from civil engineering associates And colt from boss babes Sam biel duncan fish naskier architecture. Thank you So to find it here I have to say I was here the last time you presented I've drove those roads I am so confused about what all the road stuff is about And we heard public comments from a neighbor of yours But I need someone to give me You know, maybe it maybe I'm the only one that doesn't get it but An overview of what is this road stuff all about? So I'm going to ask marty if he could do that, please Yeah, um, I think there are two separate Things going on the first one is inter lot connectivity As we sort of talked about for a while two weeks ago the ldr's have In several spots regulations that require connections between lots to be made Typically this condition is complied with by people building to the edge of their property line or providing an easement to do so in the future Our our feeling as staff is that in this particular situation Because the development on the adjoining lot is is pretty much done there is no Probable nexus for that connection being made by someone other than this application right now And there is also no real value in having a road built to the property line if it does not connect to anything So our thought is that The ldr's that require inter lot connection and are typically satisfied with building to the property line in this case Could only be satisfied by building beyond the property line and making the connection to the existing roadway on the adjacent lot that's staff's opinion as our Our thoughts it is ultimately I suppose your decision. I know that the applicant has thoughts on that matter as well The second thing on roads separate from the first one is that there is some Discord between the applicant and the neighbors to the north about the specifics of the Access on the hindsburg road the easement there who can go in how many cars can come in etc um It sounds like the neighbor to the north would prefer that there is no additional traffic going through that Curb cut on hindsburg road and that the applicant does not feel that that is how things are going to go Thank you marty I I would like to ask you on this map or a similar map. Could you trace? For me with a pink line or whatever color What roads we're talking about because I'm really confused and maybe I'm the only one but I need to understand this um yeah um, I think I think I might oh, this isn't the typical ca plan set where there's a zoomed out version and then the zoomed weigh-in version is there Oh, no, there is okay. It's just loading slowly okay, so Resume share Go ahead. I will draw you can talk Okay, so um If you can see the blue square on the left is our project location Um, the road running up and down. Oh, okay The road running down The the side of it there um is hindsburg Yes The in yellow the west side Thank you. Yeah. Yep. Yep, and then the road that kind of The larger one there that marlowe just did in yellow is meadowlands right coming off of meadowlands There's a little stub of a road Randall right and then coming off of that dead ends Yeah, it it I believe was intended to loop back on itself to meadowlands, but has not yet done that Okay And then coming off of that stub of randall is another stub It is a it is the parking lot access for the existing keller williams building. It is an orange So We are asking well It's staff's Consideration that the the regulations would be best served if the applicant were to connect to the orange stub there But there's another Entrance There we go. Thank you. What is that? What is the pink? So the the pink is a combination of both the existing road Off of hindsburg that accesses the cea property and the property to the north and then also the pink is The road proposed to serve this veterinary hospital And then the last section of the pink is a potential connection from that road to Randall yes via the parking lot, but there's no connection now to randall. That's correct so the uh public comments about the veterinary hospital and the potential vibration relate to the pink They relate to the pink Yes, but on the left side, they're they're more focused on the hindsburg road side On the other side of the property they are There is some disagreements perhaps or confusion maybe about The ownership of the so the access to both the property to the north and the property to the south Are off of one It's one driveway That serves both And then there's just The I maybe at this point they've you know better than I but the property owner Marla's zooming in the property owner to the north The the curb cut is on their property And so they are feeling like they have some entitlement to restrict The amount of cars amount of traffic that can go to the proposed veterinary hospital That is I guess remains to be seen if that is True or not based on the the specifics of the legal documents that govern that that curb cut But that's kind of they're more of their concern. They're less concerned about Whether the ldrs are fulfilled by a connection to randall Although they would probably prefer That only that the the properties only accessed by randall and not by hindsburg road, but that is That's sort of a tangent Does everyone else understand this? Okay All right. Thank you marty. Yeah I I did have one other kind of general question before we dive into this business because we now have two applications in front of us where this one and the Feral application where you've got somebody asserting some legal right Over something that's part of the sketch plan either homes road and the connector in this case to drive How does that impact the board and what the board can do? I mean, obviously we can't adjudicate the matter So what do we do in those cases? Well, I'd be interested in your take on it My take would be that the rules are the rules and if there are existing um agreements in place that preclude the applicant from Meeting the rules Then it's the board's authority to deny the project So we would need to read the agreement and decide how we think the agreement should be applied That's the that's that's that's the problem And I've never seen it resolved in 40 years Could you have any enlightenment on that? What what happens is the various boards have said Not our problem Well, we do what we do and the courts and the parties do what they do And if there's a train wreck, there's a train wreck And that is the the brilliant Resolution of that question. I hope you're now as satisfied as everybody else is not So we would we would prove the application the way it's shown And if they can't build it because of a legal dispute dispute That's I guess they get to come back and find another way to get to the site Or they could say we can't build it the way you're telling us We have to build it and then you would say okay then Or we can't show it the way you're telling us to because the our legal agreements and then you could say Okay, well, it doesn't meet the rules tonight That's kind of it. Okay. So we just pick a path Right We rule as we rule according to the ldr's and that and that's it. They're necessarily fit Okay, aren't you glad you came? Yes, absolutely. If I may add Frank is spot on my understanding is most land use attorneys will say you're not a court of law That your your job is to interpret the ldr's and to apply the rules of the ldr's And that the civil issues are essentially to be dealt with outside of yourselves Our level of comfort is very high We included as part of the supplemental information package The development agreement between the parties Was supporting evidence on how we've complied with all of the aspects of that So in fact, we're well under what has been agreed upon by the parties as far as what we could do as far as Bringing traffic out to heinsberg road. So we're very comfortable with that what I think Both parties need to hear from either staff or the board in regards to the connectivity Is whether You know the connectivity out to a heinsberg road can be limited in any way putting aside the agreement But in by the ldr's can can the connectivity concept be put aside Obviously, we're hearing staff who wants to Ensure that the connectivity is not only met as far as the letter of law, but also perhaps going beyond onto somebody else's property So I just want to bring one other point to That particular issue of going on to somebody others property because staff has indicated that That ship has sailed as far as the ability for that particular Short section of roadway to be extended westerly To our property line to complete the connectivity in this particular case Point of interest is that on the lot on the northeast corner of what you're looking at right now That's the keller-williams building owned by adama hurgenrother's companies and That particular property was permitted originally with two buildings And they built the first building and the second building was never built. They had five years plus one year To develop that that that particular permit Ran out in 2020 So if they ever want to build the second building, they've got to come back to you for that approval They have to comply with the ldr's at that point. That's the opportunity to extend the road but more importantly The lot that's immediately south of them immediately east of our lot Is undeveloped It's a it's a subdivided parcel approved in 2014 Waiting for the right person to come forward to develop it And that is a very simple opportunity In regards to somebody having to comply with the ldr's So we feel that there are still tools in your toolbox in order to ensure that incrementally this particular type of connectivity will occur and Asking somebody to do something that isn't specifically required in the ldr's and to buy somebody else's property to make connection when It isn't identified as being a traffic requirement Um, just bothers me a little bit So I just want to make sure that we stay within the rules and that we recognize that the opportunity for connectivity is still out there And that it will occur in time. It's just a matter of waiting for that time to occur I agree with that view for what it's worth Okay. Yeah, and I just want to add just some of my own concerns with enforcing it Setting a precedent that then moving forward Developers would be required to make that connection on someone else's property without fully understanding what the impacts Could be for that property Especially i'm thinking of stormwater treatment So if it the expansion requires that landowner to now Um obtain State permitting for additional impervious surfaces on their property who is liable for constructing and permitting all of that as well Um, just something that I was thinking about. Okay. Thanks Stephanie Any other comments before we move on to the memo? uh number one Staff recommends the board begin with the items in the memo blah blah blah Let's move on to a second Comment staff recommends. Is this yours marty or more? Okay Staff recommends the board direct the applicant to work with staff and the adjoining landowner to advance the cross lot connection Prior to the next stage of review What are your response? What's your response to that? Asked and answered. I'm sorry. I'm sorry to be We've answered that question. We we believe that we have met the rules by bringing the connection to the property line and that We're not interested in going any further And I think that's right Okay Marty, did you have anything to add on that? No, I think yeah based on I guess we sort of fleshed fleshed it out two weeks ago. Um, and maybe I read the room incorrectly but kind of felt that you know, there's some support from the board uh toward staff's interpretation of Of connectivity between the two lots. Um, but if that isn't the case, that's fine. It just would be good to get a barometer from everyone right now to see I guess we don't want to put Dave and Adam hergenrother And us in a room if there's no Reason from your end that they should you know be working on something like that if you feel that just going to the property line is fine Um, there's yeah, we wouldn't this So, I mean, I mean you've said Frank that you don't need them to go past the property line My concern is this crosses into the area. We were actually discussing before which is If if we don't have any power to compel the adjoining landowner Then to say to the applicant Somehow you must Somehow make a deal With the adjoining landowner to make to get your permit under the LDR It's not reasonable. Right. If you see what I mean. Sure. Yeah, if we you know If we could coerce the adjoining landowner now from from the current position not for in some future application So they come up to their property line The other guy comes in wants to do something else later and then we impose a connection connectivity requirement on him But we can't you know force them together. I don't I don't think so included in the packet are So let me step back one step at the last meeting We had not been able to find anything in the land records Dave very generously shared with what he had Regarding this Potential connection and that gave us some breadcrumbs to find some things in the land records So what we found in the land records actually what I found in the land records Because marty was having a great time and a well-deserved vacation is this plat And so this is the property in question Here oops that was not useful here And this is sort of the keller-williams property up here There are some easements you can see p1 Is a easement between lot one c and one e? Easement e 15 I think that says is an easement between Um east mountain view lc and cea properties lc and then easement e 13 is a sewer easement on lot one c to the benefit of the cea properties and east mountain view Lots it does not appear that at the time of subdivision of lot one c and one e the board actually required There to be an easement to the benefit of cea properties though We had been hopeful because some of those plans for lot one c showed What looked like a dotted line where that road would want to go? Like frank said I don't think that the board has the authority to compel lot one c to give cea properties lc an easement At the last meeting we had been hopeful that that easement already existed in which case the board would have the Authority to compel cea properties lc to complete that connection, but I'm not aware of it Go ahead charlie, but if one e was to be developed we could compel them to finish the connection, right? Right, I mean and that was your point last time as we might not we might not be here, but right If the ldr stands the way it is, I mean theoretically Or as dave said if they were to redevelop It expand the development on lot one c. That's that's another Yeah, it's another potential nexus Yeah, so just to bring clarity to the agreements between lot one e and one c Is they have cross easements that benefit each other? Which basically allows for a common driveway that that straddles the property line and that extends all the way to the west So whoever comes forward first has the ability to extend the road. It's full width All the way to the west to make the connection So The tools are in place for either one of those parties to comply with the ldr's as it relates to Extending the existing common driveway further west So I guess I would say then that this project should involve Providing an easement to the benefits of lots one c and one e for use of this road that's going to be constructed That's part of this project That's a good legal question as far as who are going to be the beneficiaries of the connectivity It's a just a general question. Should it be the city? Should it be lots c one e? Yeah, I think those are good questions that We can get some guidance, you know, we can certainly shape the legal documents to head in that direction Frank, did you have something you wanted to say? No, okay I've said my piece All right, so um, I think what we're going to do is move on to number five of the original staff report And this regarding their rationale for removing the two cottonwood trees So when we started this particular process four years ago in the most recent effort to Repermit the plant unit development of this property Craig Lambert did go out with paul connor to the property to take a look at the two cottonwood trees And one of them was on its way out as it was We continue to pick up the limbs of the tree as it falls out. So it is dying And the other one is probably close to its full age So at that point we said, well, do we want to Design a project knowing that the tree is either going to fall down or is going to have to be removed in a timely way Or do we start fresh with a new palette to create something that's really exciting and and not have to work around those One dead tree one dying tree, I should say and one other tree that's probably close to the end of its Is there such a thing as a design life for a tree? But nonetheless, I'll let sam speak a little bit more on that Yeah, another challenge that we find with the cottonwoods is as we do more and more electrification and move to air source heat pumps I've been talking to certain vendors and the cottonwood when it blooms in the spring is a real challenge for the filters And so that's another just externality that the cottonwoods aren't a great neighbor to the proposed use and so as such we If marty or marla if you guys could bring up the landscape plan that I shared earlier, I'd like to just give a preview of what shared marty a water color Landscape plan prior to the meeting last week. Yeah, it's in the it's in supplemental from last week Okay, anyways, it's it's not a finished plan, but I want to just give you a board a sense of our landscape architect We're sad to lose the trees, but we're excited about the new landscape that we're working on And marlin the in the alternate Um, we created a pdf of that for you in the email and we sent you today And it would make it easier to pull it up There you go. Perfect So we have a walking loop in the front of our building. Let's uh, let's take a time out and get everybody oriented because this is a different orientation than before Maybe if can you rotate it? There we go. Perfect. Just zoom in perfect. Okay. Now. We're the same orientation We were looking at before Dave's a good behindsburg road is over here Well on the left they're looking at behind you so it's For me, it's on the left. It's on the left for them too. Okay, they're Opposite hand. Okay. Just don't use my hand. Okay So the t-shirt shape of the building is is predicated upon and and her partner's Ideal program and the way that that's got situated on the The lot it precluded the opportunity to keep the cottonwood trees But by justifying it to the south we have ample room on the north side of the building for the proposed pocket park Which has sort of two walking loops Many trees and a bird garden located on the east side Which is also where the cat rooms are because the cats like to be distracted before and Shabs them with their Required vaccines bring the thing in please Apologize it. It's what so the cat the cat exam rooms are in the east side of the building Which is where a bird garden is and the idea being that the birds distract the cats while we give them their vaccines So anyways, that's a purposeful landscape feature that will be enjoyed by anyone Out in the meadowlands business park because this will be a public community. Okay Marty or whoever's got that that magenta pencil Could you could you show me where the the trees the arborists is concerned with are? Indicate their location Yes, there's we're talking about two sets of trees right now the The two cotton woods. I think is what marla's drawing right now I think they're a little bit. I think they're more like right where the dog kennels are which is the uh South east corner of the building marla. Um south so the south leg or the east leg East the the east leg the south side south side of the east leg. Yeah. Yeah more or less right there Yeah, so so craig the arborist has no He's not concerned about the loss of those trees That that's that his comment in blue is about two other trees. Yes Well, that's what I that's what I wanted to know. What what are the trees of the arborist two maple trees, right? Yes, so, um, we can cut to that chase two Or are they the ones you're saying that's what I was confused about are you there? Are they the ones you're saying are both a dead and b dying? No All right, that's the first of the two trees. Yeah for the arborist to be concerned about, right? No, there's actually two different comments in the staff report one talks about the cotton woods that we just touched Based on on the south end of the building and then Off to the nook what happened? Oh, I thought we were going to show the the other trees Oh, that's fine. Okay. That's good. So The north end of the main parking lot if you can highlight that for us There are two maple trees Nope, that's the side lot The main there we go. That's the main lot and those are the two maple trees right there that um, craig is indicated. He's concerned about the um proposed extension of the walkway system from east to west And he wanted us in plan view It looks dire in real life It is looks a lot better than it really is on paper So I'd like to Invite craig to come out and take a look at those specifically as far as how we can Still integrate a five foot walk as we go past those trees I'm sorry. You could integrate the walk without harming the trees. Is that what you're saying? I think we can get the sidewalk past those trees in a an acceptable manner But that's on us to figure that out But I think it's a good point that's been brought up and we will work on that detail before we come back to you And that's the whole purpose of this being a sketch plan. There we go Okay, let's move on to Comment number seven which refers to the street type um Staff recommends the board discuss with the applicant which street type appears to best fit this project so What what the typology of the the streets that we feel best fits this particular Goal of connectivity In relationship to what is close to the street or not close to the street is actually called a neighborhood street narrow Um points of interest in regards to randall street. We talked about this particular street That's off to the east that has been constructed public works actually asked us to design that in a way that did not have any curves And the neighborhood narrow street is that we're proposing doesn't have any curves either And it basically allows for easier maintenance as far as snow reduces concentrated stormwater collection and disposal and We just felt that that was a better area adjacent to an open space to Carry the day. So those were our thoughts in regards to how to Attach a specific design Requirement to the project questions issues The existing shared no, I'm sorry. So existing shared drives And access to your or to cea's parking lot has curbs. So that it would be a transition just no curbs to Open pavement. That is correct And they do the same thing as we move further east where their parking lot Common drive is curved and then it goes into an uncurved future public street There's catch basins in the curved area to catch stormwater. They do. Okay, let's move on to number eight This is regarding site amenities and the civic space street front open space and the snippet park Right, so one thing that's morphed over time as uh Cynthia Knopf the landscape architect has put this together in in coordination with with the applicant and Sam is that it's grown in size So it's close to 15,000 square feet as far as the surface area and we felt that once you get into something of that particular Size that perhaps a pocket park was a better Goal as far as features and the like to Tie the project to so that was that's at least our thought Rather than limiting ourselves something to the 4,000 5,000 square foot area. We really do want to Create as much open space as possible and the pocket park seemed to make the most sense Only because there really aren't any other open space areas in this particular part of the medallin business park And this would represent a larger area that Everybody surrounding it could benefit from so that's that's why the pocket park seemed to make sense for us Questions comments number nine, this is about the Department of Public Works comments staff recommends the board discuss the comments of the dpw um with the applicant Um, we don't have any issues with what tom has brought up Um, it will take some talking in order to basically bring them up to speed on What was masterplanned what wasn't masterplanned in this particular area keeping in mind that The medallin business park Was not a pud. It was a straight subdivision It has many features of what a pud would look for but nonetheless It doesn't have many of the planning components that would be required today So i'd like to take the time to meet with tom and get him online with that and whatever he Recommends as far as what makes sense then we will proceed with one of them which is extending the walkways from The new building all the way to the west to hindsburg road is one that we will adopt moving forward Okay, thank you questions number 10 stormwater treatment Applicant must work with stormwater section to resolve these issues Yeah, this is a complicated stormwater management system that relies on the existing permit with the city of vermont That ultimately was part of the city's approval process But also seeks to augment that with fully complying stormwater components So i'll have to sit down with marisa and bring her up to speed on that. I don't want to try to bore you. I won't be boring you stefanie But uh, no, we would like to be able to have the ad opportunity to to meet with her and and get her up to speed and Figure out if there's additional information Additional mitigation required to be fully compliant. So you know what the concerns are and you will run with them. Yes Okay, so are we unequivocally directing? I want to pick up that language Are we unequivocally directing the applicants to coordinate with the stormwater section to establish a path forward prior to the next stage of review I I would think we are And I would take that as a stipulation. Absolutely. Okay number 11. Um, this is conforming regarding conformity with the 2024 comprehensive plan So right now Um, staff has identified the fact that there are certain components within the ldrs that make reference back to the Um community plan and Uh, you have a new one coming into effect shortly And what the important thing is is that? What is in that particular document is either consistent or inconsistent with what we're proposing to do here Things that are new in the industrial open space district is that there's a a higher Goal of including residential development Uh, obviously it's one that's not in the plan right now. Uh, but at the same time Um, yeah, I guess that's probably the biggest conflict that we see right now Uh, I I have a question about and I'm not sure I'm asking I could check it out Go ahead What is the uh, I mean, there's frequently a timing issue in zoning matters application versus adoption of new material I forget what the rule is. There's nobody nothing in the comprehensive plan is not yet adopted Is your application submitted? Where where are we at? Were we at sketch? Sketch, okay. So what's what's the trigger for locking in the applicable law Preliminary plat you have to have a complete preliminary plat application in in order to vest your your rights correct So this I mean, I don't not that I saw anything particularly egregious in the new comprehensive plan But I just wanted to flag for you. If you didn't know that we do have a new one coming on the books Probably around the same time you'll be submitting for preliminary very close correct So have you been looking at the intended plan or the proposed plan? Yes, yeah, we have been it was good reading assuming that's going to apply you're going to have a problem I don't believe so I I don't see the housing as being mandatory I see it as a new opportunity for the development in the industrial open space district because under today's conditions It's actually frowned upon You know when you look at the regulations and the allowable density of residential in this particular district It it pretty much says we don't want any we want this to be commercial industrial So this is a turn of events in regards to what new opportunities are there are for development of the undeveloped portions of the io district Well, and keep in mind too that the comprehensive plan is not the regulations right the comprehensive plan is what is used to Um Guide how the regulations are written so until such time as the ldr's are amended to reflect new Objectives in the comprehensive plan. They will stand as they are The planning process right now is looking at a few amendments to the land development regulations I don't think anything that's in the works right now is dramatic With respect to this application. Is that correct? Yeah, I think it's mostly act 47 Stuff and yeah But that that is that's probably more important as far as understanding where those proposed ldr changes occur because they often Attach to an application. You can actually have two different set of regulations. You have to comply with depending on the timing And you have to comply with the worst case Of the two so long story short That's homework that we need to do marlid does a nice job of summarizing How the comprehensive plan really works? However, there is some language within the ldr's that ties back and it always begs the question is how serious is it We will still demonstrate that we are headed in the right direction of both documents the ldr's and the future land development regular, excuse me community plan comprehensive plan Okay, moving on to number 12. This is regarding the noise from the dog park or the dog run And how can we be sure that you will comply with the noise ordinance Thanks, sam Yeah, so that that fenced an area in the drawings is not a dog park That is a place that we walk one dog at a time. That's being hospitalized So they're out there for Five ten minutes being walked by a staff member on the leash And the the fence is there really for protection. God forbid a dog pulls the leash out of your hand They're still contained and not getting hit by a car on hindsburg road So Really no noise coming from there Most of our hospitalized patients as well Do receive some anti anxiety medications coming through the door That's part of our fear free practice that we've adopted at our current hospital That will continue with at this hospital And you know barking is is mostly a stress response. So if you bring that anxiety down, you're really not having a lot of that either So I would not expect a lot of noise coming from our building at all. Okay. Thank you Any questions? Okay. Thank you. Um, I guess this would be a good time to ask for public comment from anyone who wishes to comment Sure john could we just take a look some of the information that they presented as far as parking and trips and Sure, there's some stuff earlier on and Just wanted to make sure I was reading that correctly the uh I guess my really my first I'd see the agreement and it Have you had any further conversations with the property owners to the north of you? so When I first spoke with brandlarsen About the project We were on the phone for about 45 minutes And I followed up and shared this information with him As far as that's concerned. Have we had any further discussions since then? No, the answer is no, okay Um the Maybe you can explain I I'm not real familiar with looking at this. I'm really not real clear So they have two cut sheets here for animal hospital veterinary clinic and the other for small office building How can the entering and exit numbers be different? It's 40 percent entering 60 percent exiting so it depends on the time of day So for example, if you're uh going to work in the morning Most of your traffic will be entering might be 80 percent entering and maybe 20 percent leaving So this is just it's either an a.m. You know Trip distribution or it's a p.m. Trip distribution. Okay for the entire day It should be 50 50 unless you're working really late. So okay, so this is just from the 4 to 6 That's correct, right? Okay, and then we're picking off the red numbers there to get what they estimate to be the total trips For both buildings combined correct, okay And then there's a restriction in here for the size of vehicle that can come through now Yes And that's not going to be a problem for either construction or for ongoing operation of the Veterinary practice So We won't have any under operations end of things We won't have any vehicles larger than what already services the Vermont LA's a vision building As far as the construction end We are we've worked out an agreement with the lot one E owner to the east to come in off of Randall street and to access the site so that we won't be Utilizing the shared access off of heinsberg road Okay Good questions john any other I think that covers mine. Thank you. Good So let's see what public comments we might have any public comments Anyone here? Anyone online? Yes, uh, this is tom dowan I'm one of the neighbor one one of the neighbors to the north 1100 heinsberg road. Okay tom go ahead One question I had was um the Footprint of the building seems to violate the View easement with east mountain LLC to the north and northeast of the building Any comment on that I'm sorry. It it seems to violate the what? There's a view easement between that property and the East mountain view LLC the 1100 heinsberg road It was part of the It was part of the negotiations for the shared Access to the two buildings that are there now But that was a private agreement was it not? Yes, it is. Okay in that case it's outside our purview It's what outside our purview as we discuss Similar to what we discussed before But that's where we did have communications with rand larson where mark nangley went directly with rand and All indications where the rand had signed off on the proposed building It actually has been redesigned to be much lower than with the original proposal and That all be in the background that was all done in good faith I have no knowledge of these discussions. I wasn't notified of this building Plans or the initial meeting So I I'm just trying to catch up as I wasn't notified of any of this. That's fair And mr. Dowan, we're happy to meet with you to Try to continue the communications second question is Is there any application required to be Filed with v-trans as far as Heinsberg road, which is a state road And this certainly is A new and different Ingress egress For this property If the board would like me to answer that question, I can answer very briefly. I think that would be helpful So the board cannot approve cannot provide final approval for a project without A letter of intent from v-trans acknowledging that they intended to approve the project So yes, there will be the applicant will be required to coordinate with v-trans down the road down the road, right? Okay I'm sorry That's still 116 in that area. It's still state highway in that area. Okay. Just checking So did you catch that mr. Dowan? Yes. Yes. Thank you. Okay. Um, the last question I had is has there been a traffic study done? No, the traffic study has not been done yet, but there will be one commissioned So the only questions I have thank you any other public comments Okay, hearing none um Do you have a question? I don't we just first bullet item we discussed was Granting a waiver for master plan review. Do we do that? Uh, no, so it's just sketch. So non-binding. So just you indicated that you Wouldn't require master plan review, but okay, there has been anything formal No formal stuff has been taken So I guess the question is would someone like to move that we um close this Hearing just a sketch So if there's consensus, that's right, you can conclude the meeting conclude the hearing Meeting I'll get it one day Okay Thank you, and we will see you back here next time. Thank you for your time. Thank you I'm gonna excuse myself for the evening and see my chairpersonship to Quinn, and I hope everyone has a good Thanksgiving Thanks, uh All right, so continuing with item number eight on the agenda We have continued site plan application sp 23036 of engineers construction Inc for the after-the-fact approval for Contractors yard in alteration of grade the project consists of authorizing the continued use of a contractor's yard to place fill materials at 24 Brard drive Who's here for the applicant? You can come right up to the table here Excellent, so I'll just have you first introduce yourselves when you turn on your mic It'll turn from dull green to bright green There's a push right in the middle How's that? Excellent. Thank you. I'm ken pigeon. I am a uh, I guess It's an llc s and k k and s properties llc, and i'm a member owner I'm jesse carswell an engineer krebs and lansing consulting engineers great, and I think uh, do you guys have anyone online? speaking for you Or just you two I believe just the two of us. Yeah, okay And I believe you guys were both here last time and we swore you in so we don't need to do that again Or is it each time? Nope. You're good. Okay. Um, so with that we will Move with the staff report so the last hearing um, they The board had some questions about the um access drive on the south of the property um The applicant agreed to work on that and they did and so they have a new proposal which was in your packet um, there's also somewhat embarrassing for us a second issue that we only identified Later, which is that there is a on the official map which um State law requires all projects to comply with an official map. Um, there's a planned public Park and open space is the terminology that's used on the east side of this lot And so we had sort of a very apologetic and somewhat panicked meeting with the applicant Um to sort that out and they have done an excellent job sorting that out So that is not highlighted in red in the staff report, but it is all described in there for you Okay um, so we will pick up um With the updated design. So maybe um, it would be helpful if you just uh, give an overview Of of the updates that have been done. I don't know if there's a plan that would be helpful to bring up So just um chatting through the the revised entrance um and the the truck turning Radius if you want to just give an overview of what you guys have done sorry um Yes, we uh, we shifted the proposed um entrance About 170 feet further to the north after we we met on site with the clifton's who are a budding landowner um across from where the existing southern access drive was so we um, we were initially going to try and Widen that existing entrance and put a radius on it so that a Triaxle dump truck could make the turn um, it would be an entrance only And um, we staked it out the field and you know did the field test with the dump truck and they could do it But we came to an agreement that we we would just move the entrance Further to the north so that it wasn't essentially right across from the the same entrance as the clifton's um and so we Also are proposing to use this as as a two way an entrance and an exit access drive and so this The access drive plan just shows it's just the modeling of Of a low boy trailer Which would be the largest vehicle that would need to turn into the site and didn't To do so without having to cross the center line Which was kind of the issue from the the previous access drive in order to make the turn Um, and it seems in in the staff report It's noted that the entrance in this turning Would require 7.2 mile per hour speed to to accomplish this is am I reading this correctly and so What is that typical is that consistent with with what trucks would be doing to to enter here? Yeah, I think they'll naturally slow down to what's comfortable and reasonable for the speed and the geometry there so I I don't see that as a problem for They're not going to go too fast through there And and then when we we did the previous field test at the The southern drive before the dump truck driver there said he was able to do it easily At 10 miles an hour now that's not the same vehicle. This is a larger vehicle But yeah, I think that's a reasonable speed to enter into it Yeah, how natural is it for the truck drivers to want to swing into the out and coming lane To give themselves a greater curvature so they can take just kind of seems like if you're driving a truck That would almost be second nature to do that regardless I noticed a couple weeks ago that even around the corner normal vehicles making a turn we're doing the same thing so it's probably kind of you know, what they might want to do but They won't need to anyway um As I'm looking at the plan, haven't they mitigated I mean you can't Control human nature, I suppose But haven't they mitigated against that by moving away from The curve because it was kind of a wasn't there sort of a blind curve or a semi blind curve And that was a major part of the problem. I'm kind of looking in the direction Of the complainant. I think I remember who that is Well, I kind of do but I don't know if it's out of order Any objection to having your neighbor speak to the issue at this point I just thought we all want to hear it, right? I mean, there's only a few of us here. Yeah, what what what's your view of the new plan? Hold on if you're gonna talk one. I just want to is it okay to have is that like against protocol? Or is it okay? No, I think I think that there's only the one real issue so we might as well move on But yeah, you do need to use the microphone. So yeah, you can you sit there or up there whatever's best great And there's a push in the middle of the microphone It'll turn from dull green to bright green and just state your name David Clifton. Thanks. So We're that's relocated now If a truck driver decided to Use the other lane Everyone in both directions can see that that's going to happen before they come across the truck So it's a huge improvement My concern was mostly that and also Keeping people from exiting though, they're not supposed to exit You know, so in this way they can do whatever they want and nothing's in the way But you know what what a truck driver is going to do is you know, it probably depends on the traffic that's going on there You know, there's no speed limit on that road. So what does that make it 35? If it's not posted 25 25 So I mean, I've been there for 35 years and I just learned that today. So I'm not sure, you know, what they'll be doing But this way everyone can see what they're you know, what's going on there before that it happens So it sounds like the core concern Really has been addressed and there's going to be human vagaries that you can't really do anything about Short of widening the road by 75 yards or something. That's slight exaggeration. All right, the line of sight is just Uh been solved. All right. So my summation would be we're good on the point Yes Is there something else as long as you're here? Okay, my order is here. So what? Mary's just wondering what happens to the other entrance Because you know that they they'll choose to take the shortest path of resistance. You can't ask them a question. What happens to the other entrance? We put some notes in the the application about Removing the existing gravel entrance and putting a Curb a continuous curb through and then doing some, uh, you know seed mulch and restore the area So it's not something that we could actually exit from All right, so we've we've consolidated The movement in and out into this new wider good line of sight driveway We've done a great job I congratulate us They're very easy to work with so it all worked out very well Thank you, sir Um, so I think that addresses the kind of part two of this Staff comment as well as far as the one way because we're having the one entrance. That's two ways Yeah, my question here was um, right if you can flip back to the plan This is really nitpicking. Um If like no one's going north from here So why does it have a giant curb radius on the north side, right? If you're leaving It's a dead-end road. It's always going to be dead-end road because it's The ministry river there's like a an auto body shop Which you know could change use someday and maybe there'll be need for People to leave the site and go north, but um, I don't think it's very likely so nitpicky could that curb radius be smaller and remove fewer trees Or have less pavement, you know Bring it down to 15 feet or something A 15 foot radius But it's up to the board if if it if you like symmetry, you know Over north in purview surface and that's fine. Yeah, I think since part of getting to this safety concern was Removing some trees that wasn't part of the original plan if there is a way to decrease the radius and save a few trees I would like to hear your response and thoughts on that Yeah, yes, I mean it's A low boy wouldn't most likely need to Make a large turning going north, but It's possible that like a dump truck still could so you could reduce the radius I think I kind of looked at that quickly to maybe like a 25 foot radius I don't know how much That would yeah, that would reduce it somewhat But you still need the width, right? You still need that 30 foot width kind of where the cursor is now But what what is the demand to go north? I guess that's a paraphrase marlos question. What need do you have for trucks egg getting there to go north? I don't think we would need one typically that that's where the question is coming from is it's kind of seems like nothing's going to make that turn north Because nowhere to go Right So what's the concern that you don't want the lip unnecessarily wide? Is that the idea more impervious coverage? My only other question possibly counterpoint would be does it do anything negative to sight lines? If you do that to see oncoming track near traffic that's coming southbound While somebody is trying to get out of that driveway If you narrow that radius and don't take out as much vegetation If it doesn't negatively impact the sight lines and I would agree with marla that there's no point in putting in impervious coverage We don't need but you could still reduce the impervious coverage and keep the Tree cutting if necessary for sight lines Yeah So I think we'd be flexible on that on the north side. Sure. Whatever makes sense to the board So if we wanted to see A revised site plan is that something that could be a condition. Okay, that's good So it sounds like it unless anyone else wants to it sounds like the board would be interested in seeing what you could put forward in that respect and maintaining sight lines, but Decreasing impervious service as much as possible that turn radius Is that correct board to the amount practical to the mark. Yeah, we can board a condition So I think with that That's all we had marlin made the points about the official city map, but Unless anyone on the board had questions about that And you guys are good with it as written I'm sorry the um the comments about the official map. You didn't have any questions about that section of the staff report Yeah, the in revoke in revocable offer dedication Yep, or to be conveyed. So, yeah, yeah, we're good with that With that, I will just Any additional public comments from you all and no one online? I assume At the cul-de-sac I guess we'll How do we show that jesse? We for right now? We have it in place And obviously we'll stay there until we I think we would have it as a auxiliary Entry and exit. I think the first one would become the default one Yeah, I'm thinking we can close. I think it's kind of mostly closed now, right? I haven't been get down Well, we I think we still got some access It's kind of limited on the uh on the cul-de-sac side right now Oh So sir, I'm just gonna I'm realizing that you guys aren't talking to the microphone So just for the benefit of our note taker and if anyone is online people the folks Commenters are just asking about timeline um Fair question. I think for our decision tonight you you're welcome to respond But it's nothing that impacts what what we need to decide this evening. So um, I'll let you If you have a response that go ahead but then um We would need site plan approval first I think right and once you obtain that then we need to get a curb permit In order to install the new access drive once we have those things in place then We can install it All right, and anything else? Okay. Yeah, yeah, of course We'll be here to get it done. Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure you guys are trying to get it done, right? Um, all right with that I would welcome a motion to Close this application Do I have a second second? All those in favor I hi all those opposed and and I think We're all set. You're all free to go. Thank you. Thank you And with that, um, we'll move to agenda item number nine um So our minutes weren't available Uh, and so we will move to last agenda item Other business which is our 2024 schedule And staff provided us with an excellent color-coded proposed schedule um Yeah, somebody's just pulled that up on the screen. Um, historically Well, his in the way back before 2018 um, the board Would meet on the same night as council if council had a funny meeting that was bumped to a tuesday Council bumps to tuesdays when there's a monday holiday And the board it would just meet at the same time This was a pain in the neck when we were in the other building because we would have to move to the police station And then, you know, we couldn't have a minute staker and we couldn't have town-meaning tv Now we're living in, you know modern times and we Can't have town-meaning tv attend both I confirm with them. Um, and You know the minutes can be done from the recording Um, we don't have to Not conflict with council if that being said, you know if there's an item of interest on the council agenda that People want to go to and people also have to want to go to the drb That's not really fair to the general public So I spoke with jesse who's the who's the staff person for council and she said, um, given that there are seven this year Um, maybe it makes sense to do Some of them overlapping and some of them not Um, we try to set the meeting schedule well in advance You know applications I wouldn't want to change any dates Nearer to the meeting than four weeks out So it's really not possible to know like in advance when there might be a big night or a small night um But this is just a particularly Big year for conflicts. Um, I would start right off the bat by saying Town meeting day the board For, you know, 30 years met on town meeting day and the city clerk would run into the room and say Here's the results of the elections. So that's not a big deal. That's not a conflict with council So march 6th one that I would recommend keeping um on march 5th as a tuesday um Tuesday june 18th is Only a conflict if council decides to not meet on juneteenth Last year they met on juneteenth and had it be like a celebration of juneteenth So we Can't say for certain what they're going to do, but that one may not be a conflict I would recommend keeping that one as well. Um as the regular tuesday meeting. So that knocks the sound of five Um, I don't know Marla. This is sue I have the city council schedule and it shows their meeting on tuesday that week. Okay. Thanks sue Yep So potential conflict on that one. Um, so I guess that brings us back up to six potential conflicts Um, I would like to see, you know, we all set our lives around tuesday night meetings I certainly personally set my life around tuesday night meetings. I would like to see a couple of them change, but Um, what does the board want to do? My initial thought is if there's six, let's Keep three and change three. Um, I don't Particularly have any preference which ones those are um It's I'm trying to think I know we've just had some Some applications we're seeing currently are quote-unquote bigger nights. Um, so I don't know if we're likely to continue to see those early in the year Or, you know, some of those applications are sketch master plans. So obviously they could come up later in the year too um So no decision, but other board members. What are your Yeah, I guess Three and three kind of feels right to me. I think of it just more of like traveling for holidays. So Like around new years people are more likely to take a longer weekend So pushing that to wednesday allows people a little bit more time to come back From a long weekend. Um, same thing with like, you know labor day But other than that, I don't really have I'd echo. Yeah, I think maybe we keep january 3rd September 4th as two of them that we keep as wednesday Uh Let me just remind myself october 16th. What holiday that is Okay, because that one that might be like russia shawna or something which puts me and frank That's indigenous people's day Um, october 16th. Yep, monday monday october 14th is indigenous people's day Okay So we would be meeting on the 15th. Why does it say 16th? Right, thank you. Shoo. Okay. Um Yeah, no conflict with russia shawna or yam kippur this year. They're wednesdays and fridays And then eed No conflict with either eed This year either it's a tuesday That's not a drb tuesday and then the other eed is a non drb or non council monday And so marla just to clarify you said when the council did a celebration for juneteenth Was that a meeting or i'm just thinking if That's more likely It was in a celebration like in this room. It was in this room. It was okay, so but so that's the other thing is um Jesse and i would coordinate like a couple weeks before the meeting and decide who gets this room and who gets the room upstairs Whoever's expecting the more members of the public Gotcha Yeah, yeah You'll have to you'll have to vote you'll have to vote during the day It's gonna be by then, but i'm just gonna flag it up there All right, so I think we have okay, so we're gonna keep the first january meeting and the first september meeting as the wednesdays um do you want to Conflict with council on june 18th And then go ahead and meet on town meeting day. So that's two and two And then do we anticipate those like some of our bigger projects would they be extending until maybe the 17th of january? Yeah, the uh, I think that's what ferrell had indicated So maybe keep that one as wednesday just so people can attend both Yeah, yep. Yep Because at least we know we can anticipate that And then yeah, it's something The wednesdays being clustered. I think is not unhelpful So are januaries and the september So it'll be january first january second january And labor day will be on wednesdays and everything else will be on tuesdays. Okay Okay, thank you very very much. I'm impressed by how well you were able to keep track of that I was struggling to stay afloat so Thank you I will publish that um, if not tomorrow early next week Excellent, uh, and I think with that we've wrapped our agenda. No formal ending