 Growing up, our parents always had this emphasis on team. It was interesting. We didn't really understand it at the time. We'd argued and then they would be like, what are you guys doing? Your team, you know, teammates don't argue. They work together. And so that ended up setting a very, very good precedent for our relationship and like how we treated each other and how we handled conflict overall. But I think what became very clear is that it allowed us to have immediate trust. And then on top of that all, we just had to set very strong boundaries. So at work, we're coworkers and we're co-founders and outside of work, we're brothers. This is Started with Storefront, the podcast where we inspire entrepreneurship through truth. Today's guests are Brandon, Dylan and Elliot Kim, co-founders of Brevity. Brevity is a backpack company that started out when Dylan needed a camera backpack he could use while traveling. Brandon figured, why buy one when I can make one? He grabbed a sewing machine and some raw materials and the first Brevity backpack was born. For some, it may have stopped there, but the three brothers saw the opportunity and combined their design, marketing and finance skills into a multi-million dollar company. So listen in as we cover everything from the challenges of learning to sew, why they're shifting focus from an outdoor to an urban brand and we see if they'll answer us when we ask who's your favorite sibling? Before we go on to the video, just real quick, do us a favor, click that like button right there. Really helps with the YouTube algorithm. Now, back to the video. Welcome to the podcast everyone on Today Show. We're talking to the founders of Brevity. Dylan, tell us a little bit about the company while you guys got started and introduce your team here. Yeah, yeah. So first of all, Diego, super happy to be here. We're Brevity, we're a direct to consumer backpack company. Simply put, we make better backpacks. So I'm Dylan, I handle all the marketing here. I'm joined with my two co-founders and my two brothers, Elliot, who handles all of our operations and finance and my older brother, Brandon, who does all of our product and design. We started about five years ago, 2015. We launched on Kickstarter with an everyday camera backpack. So essentially what that is is it's a bag that could hold your camera as well as everything else. And really the impetus from this was I was looking for a better way to carry my camera. I used to carry my camera around with me everywhere. And then kind of as I went up to college, I found myself carrying it a little less and less. I approached Brandon, who is one of the best problem solvers I know. And I was looking for a better way to carry. I was going abroad at the time. And then Brandon came up with the idea for a camera backpack. So something that could hold my laptop, my books, as well as my camera. So we went to, not kidding, a local thrift store, picked up a broken sewing machine, which we had to actually take to a sewing shop in town to get repaired. Of course, stopping at Joanne's fabric along the way to pick up some material. And then I think Brandon taught himself how to sew and we were kind of off to the races from there. We launched on Kickstarter about six months after that, raised about $38,000 completely organically, just by reaching out to blogs and just different creators and such. And we've been growing steadily for the past five years. I ended up graduating in 2016, at which case I went on to become a venture for America Fellow. Ellie went to New York City to work at the Federal Reserve and Brandon was actually in design school. So he got into a master's program at RISD. And so about six months after that. Very talented. Yeah, thank you, thank you. In 2017, I actually moved down to Providence, Rhode Island to be near Brandon to pursue brevity full-time, which case I lived there for about eight months until I ultimately moved to New York to be closer to Elliot, who is still working at the Fed at the time. And from there, I was in a local coworking space and Ellie would join me on like nights and weekends and things like that. And we just kind of just kept growing. Let's jump into it. So first of all, my wife and I, as we're thinking about having kids, I'm always like, man, I really hope our kids become entrepreneurs. And so the fact that the three of you are combining to start a company gives me hope. And they probably won't because I'm saying this, they'll probably just be something, whatever. But anyway, I have some hope. The other thing I wanted to say is, so we're going to Aspen next week. And the one thing I always want is like a nice camera. It's just, it's like on my mind all the time, problem is I don't know how to use it. And the second thing is like, I don't want to carry this thing ever. Like it's always something that I've, so basically the way I think about it is, I don't buy a camera because I don't know how to carry this item. And so it sounds like that's kind of like something that you guys decided to solve. When did you guys know you were onto something? And so at some point, maybe you launched the Kickstarter, you're reaching out to blogs and you realize like, oh, this problem is a little bit bigger than just my thoughts and like maybe my group of friends. At what point was it that you guys were like, oh, there's a ton of people that have this problem? Was it Kickstarter that was giving you that indication or what was that moment? So the Kickstarter was more successful than we thought it was going to be. We didn't really start this as like, really, really understanding business, rather it was this interesting project. And we wanted to build a company together kind of similar to what you're talking about. I think our father had a similar dream and we all ended up coming together to do it. It always continued. That was the interesting thing. So it always like product always sold and it was in every single year we would grow. We would more than double most of the time. And you couldn't put it down, something that supported Dylan's life for a while. And then ultimately it hit this point where I was graduating from design school and it was like do or die. It was taking up a lot of bandwidth, a lot of time, as these things do when they're on the side. And ultimately we were like, all right, well, now's our time to really see if we can take this to the next level and really make it into something. So at some point you guys have enough data points to suggest that you're onto something and then you're all graduating college at the same time. And so from your perspective, what was that next step, right? Was it raising capital? What was the obvious thing that you guys had to do? This was like 2018 at this point. And as Brian said, we were growing organically and so we were really like a fork in the road. So should we let this thing just fade away or should we pursue it? And so we really saw like a bigger vision for the company and just being a direct to consumer was like taking off at this time and just being like a direct to consumer backpack company that could just capture more customers than we currently had in a bigger audience. And so I think when we jumped on in 2018, I was just, Brandon just graduated that summer. I was just coming up on like the end of my two year stint at the Fed and Dylan was already in New York. So we were saying like, guys, like let's see if we can move the company to New York and just really make a go of it. Our first order of business was actually, we wanted to raise an investment round. So we had been talking to people, we had some like soft commitments from people in our network. And time went on. We like won a business plan competition through one of our university affiliates. And like after that, we had more interest from investors. And so I think as we were just like working on it together and we were just envisioning what we wanted it to be, we realized that for where we were at that point, we were still a really, really small company. We wouldn't be able to raise, I think a good enough amount of money at like evaluation that wouldn't just dilute us or make us compromise on our values as what we envision the company and as brothers, I think. So that was like a big reflection point for us. And we just said, we're already in a good cash position, we're already growing. Let's see if we can just make a run for it ourselves until maybe we're in a better position to say, hey, like we can raise money on our terms. And so that's where we've been to this day. And I think as a business, it's been one of our best decisions. Actually, I wanted to jump in right now. I do woodworking as a hobby. And one of the common traits that woodworkers kind of joke about is the fact that, we'll be out in the world and we'll see something, whether it be a bench or a storage compartment and we'll see it and be like, why would I pay X amount of dollars for this when I could build this myself for cheaper? And then $300 worth of tools later and four months go by and then you finally have this brand new thing that's probably nicer than the one you saw in the store, but the added time and the effort and the headache that it took to make it, it's part of the journey. We just chalk it up to that. Like I'm curious with Brandon, I'm guessing that this is not the first time that you saw something. You're like, oh, I can do that better myself. You know, like this is, I feel like it's a, it's not something that the spur of the moment, it's more of like a personal trait. When you decided to tackle this backpack for the first time, you know, what was that process like for you? And what was the learning curve like? Yeah, that's a great question. I guess my whole life, I've exhibited very classic industrial designer traits, it's probably similar to like woodworkers, you know, like I'd always be tinkering and taking things apart that I shouldn't be taking apart and trying to put them back together and who knows if they even ended up back together. Ultimately, you know, the process of building our first product was very interesting because it was just, it's just a problem. It's like math, you know, you just got to solve it. And so figuring out fabrics and weaves and wefts and, you know, how to make a pattern and bring that pattern to life and then like re-sewing things like three or four times is super interesting. So for that first prototype, you know, the first mock-ups out of paper and cardboard and then you had like two or three that are sewn. And then the final one, I think took like 24 hours because I had to re-sew it over and over and over again because it's a puzzle that needs to go together in a very specific order, which who knew, you know, but I'm sure that's very similar with woodwork, you know, if you don't put the chair together in the right order, it doesn't go together like a key of furniture or something. And so I think something that, you know, something that we all feel that is probably similar to what you were expressing when you see these things in the real world is sometimes like we want a meter that we have internally at brevity for the product that we sell is, is it of a quality and at a price that we feel comfortable selling to our friends? Because like everybody who's building a company, your friends and family were like, I would love to buy your thing. And we always want to make sure that we're selling something that we're like, yes, this is of a great quality. This is at a price that is fair, that is reasonable. And so, you know, out in the world, sometimes I see bags and I don't feel that way. I'm like, that's a little sad for the end consumer, but that just is because we know the nuances of how much these things cost now and what it takes to make them. So at the end of the day, now like, you know, now that we've gone through the process of sewing our own bags and then now like spending, like living over in Asia for periods of time to go and really understand the nitty gritty of the manufacturing, we feel very comfortable with the product we sell at the price point, we sell it at the quality that we sell. Do you know what a French seam is? I think I do. I think it's the one where it hides the seam itself. That's it, great, nice work. When I had a bow tie company, I had to learn the weave, the weft, the French seam. And I was like, oh, this is so interesting. So talking about price, how did you guys arrive at the price point? What was the, were there other competitors in the market? What was the analysis there? So on our initial product, I believe it was priced at 160 and the realm of camera bags is a very interesting one. Back in 2015, there were, you were either buying kind of a like cheap, either like over the shoulder bag kind of sub 100 or you were spending three, four, $500 on a backpack. So being students, we want it to be that sub 200 mark. And then that's kind of evolved to now where we offer a breadth of product going from $95 all the way up to 220. Got it, we just had, we just talked to Daniel Linske was a photographer and he's got this page on YouTube called Mango Street Lab. He's got a million followers on this channel and all around photography. And what I learned in talking to him was that there's really like this cult like following around photography and then like, there's a rabbit hole there. What was it that you guys learned about the consumer that maybe wouldn't be obvious to someone like me, let's say who's not really in that world. So as you guys were marketing this, did the bag just like take off? Did you get picked up? Cause it seems like also that community is very helpful to each other. And so if you have something cool that solves a problem that a lot of let's say us share, then they're willing to put your product on all these blogs and stuff. What was the reception you guys were getting on that side of it? I'm a non photographer. So like getting into that, understanding that market has been an interesting learning learning curve for me, but to set the record straight about like, what our product is and how it's different is like, we always wanted a product that could be an everyday backpack and a camera backpack. And so like you can remove these dividers or an insert and it can just be like an everyday bag. And that was like really the ethos of where the company started. And so we were like sitting on this hybrid model, but in terms of like the photographer themselves, I think they're a very vocal crowd and community. And so understandably so, they want good stuff to protect their expensive gear. And so they were always like vocalizing to us, what they liked or what they didn't like about our products. We were always able to iterate on that. And I think photo, a natural progression may have been like start with everyday bags and then make a photo bag. So you can learn backpacks and you can learn like soft goods before you start getting some more complicated customer. But we kind of were thrown into the opposite where we started with a photographer. So Brandon really had to learn how to like create a complex product that would protect people's expensive gear first. And I think that was just a very interesting progression when we look back now, but really set us up to be ahead of the curve as we've been expanding out to more of an everyday market and just having to know how to make like a really good product. Something I'm always curious about in terms of marketing and how companies attack the market. And so pre-college, you guys are on Kickstarter. Instagram is kind of not really, it's kind of a thing, but not like it is today, right? And so as you guys think about marketing in today's digital world, specifically on like Instagram, what is the strategy there? I know your Instagram is beautiful. People listening, please go check it out. Super well done. It makes sense. I think it fits with what you're selling, but it's also very, it's clearly thoughtful at least when I look at it. And so as you guys think about marketing today, is it a lot of influencer stuff? Like what is it? What is it that you guys are marketing to? Is it Facebook ads to photographers? Is it different Facebook groups? What is working? Yeah, so it's a blend of all three as I'm sure a lot of other companies on this podcast talk about that as well. First off, Daniel and Rachel are awesome over at Mango Street, love what they do. Nice, yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's a very small community. So it's very like a community. So we do a couple of things. Since we're bootstrapped, everything always has to perform. So from day one, even back in 2015 before influencer marketing was even really a term, we were still reaching out to people on Instagram, just gifting bags, which is an initiative we still do to this day. We prefer to look at a lot of the creators we work with as kind of friends of the brand. So whether that's helping on a call with them or just kind of giving them a bit more creative control, like we'll send them over kind of guides and things like that, but never too strict on what they can or cannot post. And then just from there, we work with a lot of contractors and such to keep our Instagram and Facebook ads humming along. So a lot of which are actually past customers, which is really cool. Yeah, that's amazing. And what is something that we've talked about with every founder is just during COVID. What has it been like for you guys? Yeah, I don't know if these bags are top of mind for people, maybe there are, maybe you guys are experiencing some sort of supply chain issues. What has this crazy time been like for the company? You know, March was a very unnerving time for everybody. And you know, where we're going to meet, you know, we just signed a lease for a new office and on our first, which was like just really untimely for a lot of reasons. But I think we were nervous about where the business was going to go. And I think over this past year, backpacks have suffered, but we've been able to rely on our photo community a lot over this time. And I think for a lot of people through quarantine and this year, and they've been uncovering old hobbies or like photography as a hobby and getting outdoors. And I think that's what we've pitched and that's what we sold. And so people have been purchasing our products to go do those things. So we've been spared a lot there. So I think that's on the product side. And then as a company, when March and April rolled around, you know, we had to look deep inside ourselves and say, you know, what are the weak parts of the company? Like, you know, where are we exposed to risk and from our supply chain all the way to our end customer. And so we really tried to button ourselves up a lot and just make sure that the business was kind of ironclad so that we could weather this whole thing. So we've been fortunate enough to grow quite a bit. This year, but it's definitely an unnerving time and still continues to be. Yeah, what happened with the lease? Were you guys able to get out of it or were you able to just sort of do like a free rent period and extend it on the backend? What ended up working out? We stuck it through. I mean, we have a quasi in-house video production team and so they've been continuing to, I'm actually here right now, but they've been continuing to use it to do a lot of our video work and a lot of the production work that they do outside of Brevity. So it was still kind of, it worked out well for us. All things considered. Yeah, definitely was like a interesting thing to experience. We were in a small office and then we upgraded to a bigger one in an effort to scale up the team. That makes sense. And then in terms of something that you touched on just now, so we talked to so many companies and it's almost like pre-COVID, we had it so good where we're experimenting on different products and on different markets, right? And we're spending just things to test out. And then all of a sudden the quarantine hits and it forces the entrepreneur to lean in so hard into what's working. Is that exactly what happened? Were you guys testing different backpacks, different markets, maybe the outdoor? I don't know. And then all of a sudden you're like, let's just go back to what works. That hits the nail on the head. I think this whole year helped us get ultra focused on our vision and really cut out all the noise. I think we would oftentimes have all these grand initiatives or grand visions about what we wanted these new initiatives to be. And yeah, when you're kind of feeling like you're more in survival mode than you've been in a long time to say, all right, that's just noise. We need to focus on what is our primary business and where are we going? And I think that's what we've really, really gotten down this year more so than ever before. Let's talk about where we're going. What a perfect segue. Where are we going? Where do you see the company the next few years? What are you guys really leaning into? As a company, we want to be recognized as the go-to backpack company when people think about buying a bag. And so that's our first order of business in terms of just the direction of the company. And I think not just the go-to bag company, but a company that's offering better backpacks, better materials, a better product, kind of from the ergonomics and function standpoint, at an affordable and fair price. And so I think those have been a lot of the conversations and a lot of the focus is about the next few years for the company. So I have two brothers myself and a sister. The family dynamic, it can't be ignored. You're going to have corals, but I feel like family can solve those in very different ways than other co-founders. And I'm curious how you guys deal with the family aspect versus the business aspect. And if that is able to be easily separated, like say when you're all together and you're just at a family function versus a company meeting, how does that play into delineating the roles first of all when you started? Because as a new company, everything's kind of nebulous. So how did you guys delineate and clearly structure each of your roles while balancing the family aspect? I think I can take that one, you guys, as the older brother. Well spoken. It's twofold. So part of it is upbringing, growing up, our parents always had this emphasis on team. It was interesting. We didn't really understand it at the time. We'd argue and then they would be like, what are you guys doing? Your team, teammates don't argue, they work together. And so that ended up setting very, very good precedent for our relationship and like how we treated each other and how we handled conflict overall. As we entered into business together, you never prepared, especially as family. But I think what became very clear is that it allowed us to have immediate trust, which was nice. We all know exactly how each other works and like our weaknesses and our strengths. And then on top of that all, we just had to set very strong boundaries. So at work we're coworkers and we're co-founders and outside of work we're brothers and we're family. At family events, on the weekends, we really don't talk too much about work. At that point we're just brothers. And then at work, at that point we're all professional, we're there, we're president, and we're just doing our best to really push this all along. We're all climbing the same mountain. Might as well help each other get to the top. That's amazing, I kind of don't believe you, but it's amazing. My wife and I, so sometimes we work together and we had to set a bunch of rules like ground rules. And so the rules are we can talk about work in the car. So basically if we're like leaving whatever we're doing that day, we can talk about it in the car on the way home. And then once we get home, that's it. Like we're just husband and wife again. But it's getting to that point took, you guys are siblings, so you obviously know each other super well. But I remember getting to that point was pretty painful and I learned like she's like a drill sergeant. Like she thinks I'm a nobody. And she just talks to me like I'm an aunt and I'm like, what are you doing? Like I'm your husband. This is so weird. Very abusive. I wanted to go back into like, how do you guys view the next products? This is like the hardest part. I was talking to a startup yesterday and they're really crutching like the specific niche. And in entrepreneurship, it's all about planting your flag, right? And so it sounds like you guys planted your first flag with the photography backpack crap. But then expanding is, I don't wanna say, it's actually it is harder. It's certainly harder because in some way the world knows you as this person. They see you through this lens. And now you're kind of showing them a new version of who you want to be, right? Who you wanna grow up into. And so I kind of wanna get into the weeds about what is that like, right? How do you decide that? Because at some point you're beholden to your demographics that already exist. And so your customers of a certain age already with a certain income, with a certain hobby. And so taking that person and making them buy another bag. What is that like? Or are you guys going in a completely different direction where you're like, we got a flag that works. We're just gonna go into the, let's call it the high school backpack market. I don't know, just throwing things out there. So I think a good way to look at that, we really love our photography community and that's something that's a community we do not wanna alienate. They've gotten us this far. So we're trying to keep that plate spinning and then try to think of the everyday as a new plate that we're trying to get up spinning. But we're profitable and cash flow has been strong. So we're really trying to think of like the profitability from the photography backpack side seeding the launch and growth of the everyday side. Which we see as just, it's a bigger market opportunity for obvious reasons. There are more everyday people who need a backpack. Then there are photographers out there. But also just trying to bridge the gap as well. If a photographer has a friend or a partner who is in need of an everyday bag, they can say, hey, I love brevity. Here's an everyday bag that you can try out from them. And so that's where we've had a lot of early success in the everyday market as well. That makes a lot of sense. Do you guys ever think about like evolving trends, like things moving into the future? And so one thing like on the real estate development side that we're in the process of doing a coffee shop in the front and like a podcast studio in the back. 30 years ago, no one would ever think about making the podcast studio, right? You're saying that your office space today is basically video production. And so as you think about content creators growing or democratization around just creating content, right? All you need is a microphone or a phone. Are there any other avenues that you see like are starting to hit? Like I would love if I had a backpack to just pack up this microphone and you know, this arm stand that isn't like a roller suitcase that I have to like basically it's a snowboard size bag, right? Do you guys, I don't know if you guys ever think about little things where creators are doing things different or the market is evolving and it's pushing you to something else. So maybe I can answer this one. So we prototype a lot. And so a lot of those, there's a lot of niches that we've uncovered within the space within like that are peripheral to where we operate that we are prototyping for that we are building products for and really trying to nail down the product before we either go and trailblaze into this kind of new, these new hybrid spaces or you know, enter into these other spaces. I can't really dive too much more into those details right now. I like it, I like it. But it is something that is well on our radar. I think at the end of the day some of what Elliot was hitting on is that making technical camera backpacks is difficult and there's a learning curve to it. But those techniques exist. It's like really, really beautiful high-end products with like very difficult techniques. They exist and they're left in like the hiking bag market and things like that. But at the end of the day you can bring that to the everyday consumer and provide a really awesome experience for them. And I don't understand why more companies aren't doing it but that's how we're proceeding. Once again, it's that idea of we wanna sell a product that we feel comfortable selling to our friends at a price we feel comfortable selling to our friends. So as we entered into this everyday space we brought those same techniques in and so they've just made a really awesome user experience. That makes sense. And then the other question I had was just around how do you decide on colors? This is so simple, but to me it's like the most important thing. Because when I buy a backpack, I'm like a neutral fanatic, right? But then I see backpacks out there that are like bright red and I'm like why on earth would anybody buy that thing? Like what part maybe it's just part of your brand maybe it's part of the identity business that is a designer. How do you think about that? Yeah, that's a great question. There's a lot of colors there so. You're over in the counterworms right now. That's a counterworm. One of my classmates from RISD, he was in my cohort, he runs a studio called Harmless Studio. It's a vegan based studio. His name's Dave Pittman and he has a theory that trends follow economics and like global events. They either follow it or they react to it. And so that has really helped guide a lot of the decisions we've made in order like with the brand and with colors and product and things like that. I think there's a lot of trends that are noise. These fast fashion houses are churning out stuff. They certainly slow down in 2020 but nonetheless that makes things difficult. We've picked colors according to what we feel are longer trends. And basically we feel that these colors should be able to stick at least for the next three to five years which we feel comfortable with which is good. One of the more difficult things when you're starting a company is first of all, what do you name it? And then second of all, like what does your logo look like? I think that Brevity is a really cool name but more to that point, I really like your logo because I have kind of the thing for animals being used in logos. And so like for you guys, it looks like a deer looking up at a star and it's simplistic but it's catchy and it looks super high end. And so like that's the kind of thing where you guys could just throw that on anything and it communicates kind of like your brand like the outdoor nature of it. Like it's a backpack, you're taking it with you. You know, what was that process like and how did you settle on both Brevity and the logo? Yeah, so I think it might be brand I think in both answer this question because I think it was a true collaborative effort between the two of us. So first off, naming is unbelievably difficult. I feel like half the time it's, you know, just firing names back and forth until one kind of sticks. We chose the name Brevity, clear, concise to the point and in kind of a noisy world and things like that we wanted always to be kind of are designed to be clear, concise and to the point very understandable. The deer, the stag logo came more from a sign of protection. You know, we thought that a deer was very emblematic and we're half Irish and on our mother's family crest there is a stag there as well. So you felt like it fit very well. And then even the star within that logo is just kind of a nod to kind of exploration and everyday adventures, things like that. All that to be said though, we actually just sunsetted that logo and we just launched a rebrand with a Brooklyn design studio actually that did our whole rebrand. And so part of that overhaul was trying to kind of get away from the outdoor side of the brand and more leading into the more urban side of things. And so Brandon could probably speak more about the specifics about that since he led that engagement, but yeah. I understand, but a little part of me is destroyed. Because I really liked that logo. So hearing that sunsetted, oh. We can talk about your name. So we actually just finished an engagement with this woman named Amirtha and she was the former head of merchandising at Casper. And so she worked with us tirelessly to figure out a merchandising strategy going forward. And I think we talked about names for hours with her and about what we wanted our streamlined line and offering in the future to look like and be named. And she recalled all of her experiences in the past and saying that naming is never a pretty thing. It's a lot of different people throwing different names in a hat and then everybody just agreeing on what those names are. So we just tried to choose names that were like pure to us and fun and true to the product. But that is also in terms of naming product that is also just not a easy endeavor. That's hard. I mean, we went through a rebrand and I mean just picking a font, right? If for us it's easy. Like startup to storefront, the name says it all. We're literally talking to people who go from startups to eventually either selling their company or just a simple startup. But I remember the font, me and Nick and Natalia went. So Natalia and our team is a designer. And so she almost like the Brandon, right? Where you defer to the designer. But sometimes Nick and I pick like a font that she's so disrespectful about. She's like, what's wrong with you? Like, you know what I mean? She doesn't hold back. No, no. She's like, oh, you clearly don't know design. Do you dress yourself in the dark? Like type of questions like that. She's just throwing shade. So Brandon, it sounds like you're a little bit more even keeled than that. But that was our experience. It was, it was awful. But now we like the rebrand. It looks super good now. And so we're happy with it. I did have a question for you around. So a lot of companies today are sort of forced to be your business, right? So your product, but also media. Like a media company. And some companies just do a simple here's our digital strategy and they leave it at that. You guys are engaging the photography community. And so do you try to build, I don't know if it's like a YouTube channel or something where there's like a complete media component to your company that sort of serves as its own asset? Have you guys done that or are giving any thought to doing that? So we have attempted that in the past. I think ultimately what we found is that to do it right requires a lot of time and resource. Really what we lean into a lot now is just curating great images from our base. We again, gift bags to creators, maintain those relationships. And that's kind of how we really fuel along the media side of our business. And then we also work with all those contractors that we have a kind of peripheral like that are in our space and whatnot. So we can always curate really, really great content. Got it. That makes sense. And then for people listening, I like to give people just a quick like one to three things about your bag. And so if I were watching a 30 second ad about your bag, what are the three things that you guys would be the most proud of? A loaded question right there. I think I'm very proud of the simplicity of the design. So it does what it needs to do very simply. It doesn't do more than it needs to do and it doesn't do less than it needs to do it does exactly what it needs to do. And so sometimes that's hard to distinguish, but I think when you use it, you'll feel that. The second thing is the quality. We have very high standards. So if we're going to be putting product into the world that's made of oils, like petroleum products, we want to make sure that they would last. And so we have standards that are up there with some of the best brands, if not better. It makes it unbelievably difficult to source materials for it, but it makes sure that the longevity of the product is there. And then the last bit is, I think I am proud of how fun these products are. I think it is rare to find product that is fun. And that is a nuance for me as an industrial designer. But I think that is an important piece that those nuances, they do transfer at some level over to the end consumer. Even though they might not notice those details, it's there and it lives in kind of the ethos of what it is. And so that was a very long and difficult part of what we were doing. It was very theoretical actually and took a lot of conversations and a lot of work to get there. But ultimately, I think we arrived at that point. So I know that part of your company, it's a philanthropic arm of your company. And this is not something that's necessarily foreign in today's world, you have Tom's, you have Warby Parker. What was your decision-making process like in making sure that this was part of your core values and how do you choose the organizations that you work with? So a lot of the work that I did before I came on to brevity was in public service. And so that was always really important to me. And I think as brothers, that was always important to all of us. And so when we came together to do this full-time two years ago, we said, we got to be more than just backpacks. There's a lot of backpacks out there. And we can beat them on product, but we still have to beat them in other ways and just serve our community and do good. I think, if we're gonna become a backpack company, like that's the least we can do. So that was always part of the vision and the goal of the company. And so this past year, we donated, we had a good growth year as I mentioned. So I think that for us was like a very interesting experience like kind of the epitome of privilege and just we could be home running this company and growing. Well, so many out there were struggling. And so we coordinated a big backpack donation. We donated 150K worth of backpacks to the homeless in New York. And we saw that through this nonprofit backpack for the streets. They were handing out in April, backpacks to homeless people. I think that was in the earliest in New York and that was in the early stages of the pandemic where everybody was just really frightened and really scared about what was going on and we saw these guys out there on the streets handing out these backpacks and we said, we wanna support those guys. And then we've donated this year, raised money for a few other organizations, COVID-19 relief and then another nonprofit that I work with here in New York. But that has to do with civic education for young people. But we haven't committed to one place or the other. We wanna spread the love and wherever there's a need at that time, target that and that's just what we've done this year. And you know, long may continue. We hope to continue to always do that going forward. I think that's so important. So I, years ago, I started at a nonprofit Motorcycle Safety Foundation. It was kind of the thing where myself and my co-founders didn't necessarily know the market that we were getting into. We just, we were passionate about the subject matter and we just wanted to get involved. And it was a hard lesson learned, but we discovered that because we didn't know what we were doing, we weren't able to necessarily help. And we were adding our own two cents into a market that didn't really need it. And instead of taking a step back and looking at how things were already being done and how we could lend our aid and assistance to those things that were already being done, we just decided to jump in head first and it was like the wrong move. It sounds like you guys did it the right way in the sense that you saw this organization that was already handing out backpacks to the homeless and it was like a match made in heaven. You're like, easy, we can absolutely contribute to this thing that's already taking place as opposed to kind of inserting our own preconceived notions into the matter that may or may not be accurate. I just have to say that I commend you on that and saying that I think that's the right way to go about philanthropic endeavor such as the one that you've contributed to. Thank you. You're right, they have the operations set up to distribute those bags and prep those bags. And so, yeah, we wanted a partner that could get it to the people that needed it most. So we're really pleased with that work. And then just to wrap guys, what can you tell us about what's on the horizon? And so we kind of peppered in a little bit of things that you're working on. What are some of the concrete things you're working on, whether it's raising capital, really growing, expanding into this new niche, what are some of the things you guys are planning to do in 2021 and maybe 2022? So as I mentioned, you know, new resigns, we're trying to win, I don't want to belabor the point, but trying to win at becoming an everyday backpack company. I think that's the real vision and not compromising on our values while we do that. Like there's a lot of great big backpack companies out there who have gone to distribution method and wholesale or retailers. And you know, we see that as kind of like a race at the bottom. We want to control our whole supply chain from end to end control our prices so that we don't have to compromise in our values. As I mentioned, like we can keep the materials we want. We can coordinate the donations that we also want to do, you know, keep our people happy and all of those things and just grow to become and set the standard in the soft-get-face as a strong backpack company. And so you'll see from us over the next year, just watching new backpacks from kind of entry level bags to more premium bags and some cool hybrid bags that Brandon's been working on as well. That's what's on the horizon and that's what the focus will be. And does that mean you guys are gonna basically be D2C or will you, do you do any retail? Do you do any Amazon? Or do you guys want to own that entire customer experience? We have a little bit of, we have like one real retailer we work with. We will put a little bit of Amazon, but I would say, you know, 90% plus the business will be driven from D2C. And then also we've been leaning to a lot of like corporate sales stuff. So, you know, trying to get people at companies that we support, companies that we love to start wearing our bags with like embroidered, their company logos embroidered on the bags and start selling them to like their employees and start handing them out to their employees. We think like, you know, getting like-minded companies to start wearing our bags is just a great way to get like-minded people involved in the brand. Tell everyone where they can find you guys too. I know we kind of peppered it in, but tell everyone where they can find you, where they can purchase your bags and where they can support. Yeah, so we're brevity, B-R-E-V-I-T-E.co, not .com. And then on pretty much all social media, Instagram is the best place to chat with us. We're at brevity, again, B-R-E-V-I-T-E. Who's your favorite sibling? I'm gonna have to go with Nick. I think, and I'm just gonna do, I'm gonna say it because I'm feeling it, but the secret sauce to your business is Brandon, guys, for real. Like he's the secret sauce to your cold company. I'm gonna be honest. The industrial design type is such a unicorn. Oh yeah. Brandon, you're welcome. Hopefully that accounts for something, but. I feel it, I appreciate it. Best problem solver I've ever met. Honestly, when I said that, I absolutely meant it. Best Googler, it's unbelievable. I think Brandon gets working as a designer a lot, but he's really not just a designer. Like he's so much, you know, he's just, he's I think the true entrepreneur of this whole thing. Like he's the one who got this thing going from day one and just like push forward when we're all like, what is this product? Beginning was, you know, like any company, you know, just very, you know, every piece of the business was janky, but Brandon was always like, let's just keep pushing forward. I love it. I'm a chief designer. I think that's what I usually say. Like I'm much more interested in how design can help business scale up faster than I am interested in design itself. I just happen to be the only one who can design the bags. So what do I do? But I also have to do a lot of other random things. Like I like, I'm a guy for the whole business. So. Well, thanks guys for coming on the podcast. I appreciate it. Looking forward to what you guys are doing. And I'm a fan. I'm a fan. And we're going to bring back that deer for Nick. So let's do that. Thank you. Thank you personally. Thanks guys. Thanks for having us.