 Good afternoon everyone or good morning or good evening wherever you are. Good afternoon to Ivan Gikic And thank you very much for joining us today Ivan Gikic is professor in molecular signalling at the Institute of Biochemistry at the Goethe University in Frankfurt So thank you very much for being here for joining me and for this for being present on this short Live interview which will be recorded and available later on. I just wanted to start with a very short Icebreaker and ask you what got you excited by microbiology as a child and why? Yeah, I think I grew up next to a father who was the veterinarian and as you can imagine microbes are all around there So there was a lot of curiosity and from curiosity you become a scientist and as a scientist You cannot avoid microbes they all around us. They are very rich source of information we can learn a lot from them and I believe part of my Success is owned also to this curiosity in the world of microbes I think especially now it resonates really much to then microbes are around us with the current pandemic But I think one also tend to forget that most bacteria most microorganisms are are beneficial the vast majority of it and This is a pity sometimes that this doesn't come comes over. I would say But it's on one side one can understand that we are as humans We are much more concerned about the danger than about commodities around us Or at least we don't understand how many commodities we have also our micro or microbiota These are our beneficial commodities and we have ignored them for many many years It's good that they became now a center of research by understanding how much communication comes out from such a vast number of bacterial cells within our body and then instead of focusing only on pathogenic bugs pathogenic Viruses or parasites. Obviously, you know, the disease is as well very important and in a way We need to know more about those because they're attacking us. They're causing a cute or chronic Consequences to us as humans and that's why we have a medicine. That's why we are successful and survived through the evolution Can you tell us a little bit about your current era of research and how can you tell Spencer? What is happening around us in the world now? Maybe not necessarily about covid even though it is very prevalent news, but also In other areas if this the case I Finished medical school and became a physician by basic education and after that one I moved to New York where I started to do structural biology and biophysics chemistry So today my lab is a truly interdisciplinary we use any possible modern technologies Particularly the cutting edge the very new ones, which will actually help us to be Seeing the details in in in a way that we could never do it in the past but the questions that we ask undefined the Lot of time driven by an importance or by serendipity Sometimes by a curiosity which is driven by the bar discussion and once you define that you Get on the focus the project and use all the Possibilities that you have and this which makes my lab very successful. First of all people collaborate within the lab They form the teams they use Anything possible and then we collaborate if you don't have that in front put around us Collaborate with people very early on shared our information and knowledge and in that case in the last decade from cancer Neurodegeneration you became very much interested in bacteria and in bacteria particularly Salmonella Shigella and most recently legionella newophilia, which is still a serious concern with all these jacuzzi is bad air conditioning Even today when legionella spreads through the hospital in New York like few years back You have no antibiotics. You have no drugs that will help and more than dozen people died in that Accident so we are trying to understand these bugs You're trying to understand their uniqueness and then also try to understand the common way How our body responds to them and in that case we would like to understand the prototype behavior Toward the pathogens in general and then there was just a consequence beginning of this year that Our labs were shut down because of the covid crisis and then we use the same enzyme We were studying in bacteria and try to search for them in a covid found some of the families of proteases and truly we We discover something quite important and we discovered how this specific Papain like protease from covid or cough to enzyme is Could be blocked and what this this is a consequence to virus and consequence to interfere on antiviral response Manuscript was finished within five months in collaboration with six groups around Europe and we Transported reagents by cars and so on because it was shut down complete But the success is common success was quite nice and we are now following up Trying to figure out whether we can really create an alternative to vaccination alternative drugs that will specifically Block this enzyme and does a block viral spread and eventually increase the antiviral response in a host One question would be what does this current pandemic thought us about how we deal with public health? first of all this Pandemic crisis taught us that we were totally unprepared globally when you look the global response. It was a total failure On other side, it taught us also that science has an amazing amazing power Scientists around the world within less than 10 months have accumulated more valuable information than in any other single topic in the history of of human race in terms of Knowledge in terms of technologies in terms of new capacities for detecting testing as well as now 11 vaccines within the clinical trial Um, it's the phase three all within 10 months and or 11 and if you if you consider that this is this gives A power message to the society saying trust science Trans scientist trust the data and then if you do that Consequence will be the beneficial for young for generations old ones, but also the the society in general the economy the The justice the social quality as well all those who are in danger in our countries All of these can be helped if you are well prepared and we follow the data And follow them very carefully with full responsibility. So I think the the pandemic even though it is terrible. It has really Changed the world from one to another day. It blocked us 7 billion people were in one or another way of quarantine But yet we can learn and we should learn from this and be better for future be better prepared And just move to the positive side and look how much we have accomplished already Another question for you We'll also related to these in a way So besides being the leading expert in the field of ubiquitin biology and cancer research You are committed to the education of next generations of scientists And have been honored by for your effort to popularize science So I jump a little bit in my list of question I prepare to ask you What are the in your opinion the biggest challenges in communicating science? So what why do you think that despite increasing efforts by individual researchers in science communication? These are not considered for a career progression in science And look today the the communication is a general problem Social media have taken the center stage of a flow of information within the subgroups And these subgroups are defining which information they want to accept. I mean when you have a The groups of this of the on the social media They define their rules. So now if somebody comes from outside and say look at this data. Look what science says Look at the danger if we are not being able to transfer this message to this group They will be Completely wasted. They will ignore it and this is very often happening now with many topics not only scientific topics but also relevant topics of You know dangers which are ahead of us the current politics The the businesses and then the facts are very difficult to be proven because if they define for them what they believe in I mean, that's that's the fact. So I think what we need to do as a world And I think there was there's a lot now going on You really need to change the responsibility of social media in what and how they transfer the information and particularly Under the conditions of pandemic threats. There are all these fake news There are a lot of lies placed around a lot of completely unjustified statements And nobody has ever been able to Deny them because there are so many and they are spreading in the channels that you cannot deny So the only stuff that is left to us is to keep straight to keep straight our work our scientific knowledge And try to educate the new generations our kids students Pupils in schools that they Think carefully What is the fact whom do they trust who are authorities whom they would like to rely upon And if we manage that we will have the majority of our societies On the right track and then minority will be the time change their course I always believe and I'm very optimistic on that So it seems it seems to me that you're saying that The way the news are are are spreading today. It's different than before and that's that's it's something that It's it's it's not necessary for science or scientists to address because it's it's outside to ram it But then at the same time do you think there is a way that scientists can help or Can engage with with people then maybe Just discard a truth or how can scientists tell? Yeah, I think we just need to be active in in the public I think there is no way we can sit in our offices. We keep publishing our papers In educate our students Part of our duty as academics is Also to go to public to popularize science to talk about our work to Engage in a discussion for example now with a covid crisis Beautiful examples in every single country. You're gonna see A genuinely talented scientist who can communicate with the public who have who have done Tremendous work in their own countries to promote truth facts right measures And those countries that have followed us Scientific appeal and scientists were active those countries had much better response much better measures And they were less people infected and less people died unfortunately in in some cases But there where scientists can do a lot. So the message is let's be active Let's communicate our knowledge to the public and that will be a part of our contribution And maybe this question is a bit difficult to answer, but why do you think that communicating science is not Considered often as as an achievement for career progression I mean, I don't think that it's not considered now. It's getting more and more And more Considered by the public I mean, I'm seeing here in Germany my very close colleague here in Frankfurt Sandra Cissek she just joined the Frankfurt a year ago and Just started with virology department. She came directly in the middle of pandemic She she has managed so well There was a lot of help from the colleagues in Frankfurt a lot of communication But she grew up so fast as the one of the publicly recognized expert in covet And she's having a podcast together with christian drosten from berlin And in that case you suddenly see this feedback to her recognition in which she motivates herself To to engage in that one. Otherwise she would lose Her work time, but she feels how important it is and I do feel for myself as well in the career Anytime I engaged in in a public Um Debates in a public educational projects that young people have been the major source of Feedback to me and the major energy to continue and do it again in the future Great great another question related to science communication and And more about reaching decision makers Do you think that approaches that scientists use to communicate their research to a broader audience? Can also be used to reach policy makers or is different Yes, that's right. This is this is absolutely connected. It's like a one tube with water If you work on a public you're going to work on a politician as well The same way around if you transfer some of the good messages to a political Arena where the decisions are made and this is very good Obviously, this is going to be reflected to the society as well One example is erc establishment of erc came from scientists that came via Politics and eventually this has made amazing impact on societies on different countries on a public Across european union. I think that's one of the best example where science politics and societies have been Incredibly well integrating covid crisis is the second one. We still have a lot to do. We have amazing Challenges difficult ones ahead of us The public public understanding of a global warming of what is expecting in In pollution of nature, how do we communicate between each other between different countries? What is solidarity? How do we make them? You know, how do we make the balancing life on education on payment for health system? All of the things ahead of us and just by engaging together Public experts from different disciplines and politics or politicians This triangle needs to work together. How do we come together? It's not always easy The webinars zoom lines are now quite convenient people can connect we can share information more But I think it's very critical to be within the alternative media meaning Social media as well as a classical media tv newspapers and so on because we need to cover We need to cover the entire spectrum of our public So it's about being present being connected and bringing the message out there and Communicate to different stakeholders and to different group of people But very often science is also very complex. So it's sometimes it's difficult to communicate or you need to simplify quite a bit and and then from for researchers it might be a bit Trivial the way they express the science. So what do you think is a good approach? Science needs to be simplified to to be communicated effectively Or other approaches maybe need no, I mean science science needs to be presented to be understandable Understandable means you need to have a different levels of details you want to present If I go to the primary school kids of the age of 10 I'm not giving the same lecture if I'm lecturing my students at medical school. That's very obvious If you go to public, you cannot pretend that ubiquitin is known to everyone So it is natural the people who want to engage They need to have a first mission and this is the message they he or she wants to transfer to audience needs to be understandable needs to be factual And it's to be neutral. We should not take sides particularly in the debates about the drugs about influences and so on So these are the three messages and of course we are different people are different scientists Some scientists don't have a talent for this other scientists have amazing talent like with the music like with the sport Not everyone is a great sportsman. So those who have a talent, they should use it They should go to public. They should talk and those who don't do it They should not despise these people by saying, oh, they simplify too much or they are making it so So for public. Yes, that's why we need to do it. We need to make it Understandable for public but factual as I said, so I think we We can say in Germany or in Europe We can say that a lot of young people get engaged at the early stage. They are learning how to present It's not always easy. Sometimes you feel oh, I didn't really do well I didn't describe them this mechanism that mechanism But at the end of the day when you get the feedback from the people and they tell you wow, this is so nice So many details. I eventually understood how this and this drug works Why the cancers are so complicated to treat where the resistance to cancer happens These are very complex question And if you manage to excite the people with the understanding and the knowledge That what comes back to you as a popular zeta and you say wow, I did very good. Great Let's go back to the to the lab and Then I have a question for you Given your interest and your commitment to to engage with the next generation of scientists What is your your approach to support early career scientists? I think you just need to have a good communication daily contact and think about Think about their needs what they will do after your lab one of the first question I ask people who joined my lab What is your vision after you finish here postdoc or finish here a phd? If they know It's very easy to ask for me because I remember and I work with those people three for five years We come to the same vision because my interest is also that these people Accomplish what they want in the future And therefore when you have a common interest, it's it is easier Obviously, there are many ups and downs. There are many things that do not work There are many difficult moments as a mentor you need to be always Here to hear the problems not always you can solve all of them But um, I think it's important to understand that even when we fail There is something we did together and there is something that is good in all of this And the worst what you can do as a mentor to anyone is to only criticize and that's what I learned very early on because the success is a consequence of communication Motivation good results and another motivation because it's a cycle It's a cycle that eventually leads you to success And for me success of a young person who works with me is the chi or he accomplishes what they wanted They publish they get awards but most important is What do they want to do in the future? Do they want to become a academic professor? Do they want to be a group leader somewhere? Or they just want to go to the new challenges and new technology environments and new institutes And I have to say I was lucky up to now Most of the people who work in the lab in our institute have found their own way and that makes us quite quite happy and and satisfied What advice will you have to a young scientist going to a first conference? Of course now it's online. So it might be a bit different. But What advice will you give to someone attending the first conference for the first time? I will just tell them don't don't sleep much Get engaged in discussions Communicate with anyone you can do ask a lot of questions And be very curious don't don't think that in the next hall In the next conference group. It's very boring Sometimes you don't know what is waiting in the lecture and therefore be very alert From my own experience when I started to go for the first meetings and these were them They're like Frederick meetings and a cancer in America as well as the kiston meetings Those meetings have actually installed within me A necessity a need to go for at least one two three now I go to more than 30 40 conferences in a year and this kind of an interest and Talent that you want to communicate also your data and don't be afraid to talk about your own data About asking the questions what really bothers you Of course, you should not release everything that your mentor does not want you But there are ways of asking such that you get a lot of answers back So I think the the issue here. We are going to be on zoom. We are going to be on webinars or whatever online You just understand that this is also a new way And you are maybe more flexible and easier than many of the presenters in using these technologies So just make fun. Just send some of the chats and some of the nice questions Signs or any of them any of the Of your own Messages and in that way be present and learn as much as you can because this is why the conference is made I made for you and for sharing and it's about communicating and connecting with people and Even till now we are online. So it is different There are still many chances to connect and maybe even more chances to connect in some way because Maybe for some people is easier to to to attend an online conference and traveling because of travel restrictions or budget reasons or whatever And if you think about online Conferences, which is for many people Something absolutely new or for all of us in a way 10 what do you think are the pros and cons of online conferences versus? Classical in person conferences Pros are that we don't need to travel. We don't lose a lot Time of traveling second of all we also decrease the CO2 imprint and many of the things will be beneficial by Not not traveling so much The the second pro is that you can You can actually be in more places more activities in a much shorter time The contrasts are that you lose this personal contact because once you are with someone talking It's it's a body language. There is a smiling. There is a much more warm communication There are bars that you go in the evening or restaurants for dinners In which a lot of new ideas happen, but just spontaneously And this will never never be lost. I'm sure when COVID crisis is over We will all go back to the regular conferences and the future will be combination between the online versus Classical conferences because both of them will have benefits and both of them will be needed by by scientific community So we will sometimes be able to connect around the world Within an hour and sometimes we will travel all the way to Japan to spend one week there meet each other Have a lot of a lot of fun and then get collaborations down there Locally and then come back to our cities and work and then connect to a zoom again Seeing the positive in the negative so new opportunities are rising and And hopefully probably hopefully this will also be Stay the positive sides will stay with us in the future as well And one like last last question that I have it's again about international nature of science and scientists So scientists are are truly growth waters. They travel to conferences a lot when they can of course But they also relocate very often written career for a phd or postdoc until they get a more permanent position So how important do you think is the international nature of science to its effect effectiveness and success? The answer to that one is diversity in science. We need diversities in age gender culture nationality Disciplines all of these houses a good part of Science of 21st century is that in most countries you already have a very large degrees of Movements and people are in our lab from eight different countries That makes it such that you don't really need anymore to maximize your chance to go to Canada or to go to Australia for a postdoc because you may meet these people here in Germany So in that aspect it is not as essential as before because before we were learning a lot about other people different ways of organizing science Now you have it all integrated within the institutions in different cities So that's good. But to live in another country for two five years. It's amazing enrichment. I was Living Croatia when I finished medical school to new york spent their five years and then Dedicated six years of living in Uppsala in sweden with starting my family getting kids there The nicest moments which I had even though they were very different from all what I had before and I learned tremendously there And then after sweden we moved to germany So we are now in germany for long And we like it here and then we went to california again during sabbatical and stay there for two or three years And you know, this gives you this kind of movement and I myself I need the change. So I was always searching for the different culture ambience or intellectual challenges where I would be challenged and I would be led toward new And new surprising discoveries. So I would give you students an advice Even if you have everything around yourself Look a little bit further and look on horizon and look where deep in yourself you are searching for something Before we were going for sabbatical to california. I went home to kids and I said, maybe we should go to china Let's go to shanhai for two or three years. You're gonna learn the new language This might be a long future for you, but it might be very valuable and eventually we told the discussions Yeah, we told the discussions we voted for california. Well, thank you very much for sharing your personal experience with us and Your your insight with us Professor jikic is gonna be presenting on saturday at the coveted round table Which happens between 1 30 and 4 p.m. Central european time And thank you again very much for joining and I wish you a A nice a pleasant a successful online conference. Thank you very much for your time and thanks everyone for listening