 This session, as I said, is really a chance to talk about the role of universities in the NetZero transition. And I'm really pleased to be able to chair the panel as someone who's dedicating most of my time to that task. I'm chair of the Monash Sustainable Development Institute in Melbourne, Australia, but also Climate Works Centre, which is part of that. And Monash is very committed to the NetZero pathway, and we're going to hear more about that today. But before I introduce the panel, I did want to just talk a little bit about the guide that SDSN has produced called NetZero on Campus for universities and colleges. And it's important that universities have assistance as they embark on this task. As you heard from Fiona, there are more than a thousand universities around the world that have joined up to the Race to Zero. And I think there are many more thousands beyond that who are actually part of this transition. But it's a big challenge and for us at Monash University in 2018, we made the commitment to NetZero. But I think it'd be fair to say we, like many universities, made that commitment before we knew exactly how we were going to get there. And what we don't want to see is a situation where universities are making commitments and not able to deliver. And so that's why last year we decided, and when I say we, it was SDSN, it was Monash University Climate Works, but also a group of universities from six continents who provided experts who were on the steering committee for this project. We decided that we should put a guide together for universities to use. And that guide covers the basic things universities need to do if they're going to achieve this transition to NetZero. It's very practical. It's a how-to guide. And importantly, what it also does is set up a community of practice that universities can join. So if you go online, you can see the guide, but you can also join up as part of this community of practice. And we believe that by doing this, we're going to share the information amongst universities around the world that will lead them to successfully get to NetZero. I think the other thing that we've learned as we've done this though is that really it goes beyond the university. It's not just about universities getting to NetZero, it's about how universities as part of the community can help the community transition. Our university at Monash is part of a precinct with commercial and industrial operations that annually have a GDP of $9 billion. And we believe that we can help that whole precinct move towards NetZero and hopefully the guide can help achieve that. So that's a bit of a backdrop for this conversation and I think Kendra who worked on the guide will talk more about it as we go through this discussion. But now I want to introduce our panel and to start raising some of these issues that universities are facing as they move to NetZero. And the first I want to introduce Tim Carter who's the president of Second Nature, a US based non-profit with a mission to accelerate climate action in and through higher education. And as president Dr Carter provides strategic leadership for the organization including designing pathways for the 400 schools in Second Nature's climate leadership network. So Tim it's wonderful to have you and I might start by asking you Tim just tell us a bit about Second Nature and how it's helping achieve NetZero. Sure. Yeah thanks Tom or John it's great to be here and great to be invited to spend time with everyone here and look forward to your questions later on. So Second Nature's been around for about 30 years. We actually started with assistance from now envoy Kerry but John Kerry and Teresa Hines helped start us and at our beginning we were focused on sustainability for education and education for sustainability. So it's an integration of those two concepts. Since 2006-2007 we have run a program called the President's Climate Leadership Commitments. And this is a commitment that senior leaders of institutions make college, university presidents and chancellors to do three things on their campus. First is to achieve operational carbon neutrality. Second is to expose all their students to some form of climate action. And third is to increase the amount of climate research. So these presence commitments have been in place since 2007. So about 15 years. And so we've as a network organization had experience running and managing a network of schools that have committed to really aggressive climate action. And John you mentioned this before they even knew what that meant to really execute. I think there is actually an important role for senior leaders to be ambitious. It's one thing to sign up for something when you know you can accomplish it. It's a little bit different to say we're going to push into an area that we're not really unsure about. And that's what these presidents did. It started with 12 presidents and now it's hundreds and hundreds of universities here in the U.S. that have made that commitment. And now that we're 15 years in we can say was it successful or not? Was that theory of change right? And when you actually look at the schools here in the U.S. that have made the commitment and the ones that haven't the schools that made the commitment have about 45 percent less carbon emissions and 27 percent less energy use than those that haven't when you compare them apples to apples. So it really does matter. It does matter that senior leaders are bought into these activities. And what we also know is that the context has changed. Whenever these institutions were committing to action there weren't net zero commitments by local governments by and large. There was very little ambition on the corporate side. And now that has all changed. So now our institutions are much more John what you're talking about engaging with their community stakeholders, engaging with other partners to accomplish these broader societal goals. Great. Well, I'll pass now to Kendra. So Dr. Kendra Wasalik is the program director for net zero and sustainability at Monash University where I'm also based and Kendra leads a passionate team of sustainability experts who are helping Monash deliver its net zero commitment. And I think it's fair to say Kendra's expertise ranges across renewable energy, the circular economy, low carbon finance and sustainable building design. But Kendra, could you tell us a bit about your practical involvement in the Monash net zero transition and how you see it going? Yes, I can. Yes, I'm my team of passionate sustainability leaders. Some of them are getting up at 2 a.m. to watch. So I have to call them out. So Ruth, Jenny, Shane, Ryan and Lou, because I can't do it all myself. But as you said, we're responsible for the campus operations part of the sustainability strategy. Did we commit to it before we knew what we were doing? Maybe on electrification, but in setting up the net zero emissions target we used the climate works deep decarbonization pathway, which was built on energy efficiency renewables and transitioning off natural gas, which for us at the time when we did it in 2017-18, we were sort of that first university and probably even organization that said we would transition off natural gas and do it by 2030. And that's probably the one that gives me the most gray hair at the moment. We've been progressing, we've been doing it, we haven't put any new gas in buildings since 2018. It's just a really big challenge of the amount of existing infrastructure to change that. And you talked about that climate works report, and I'm obviously aware of that being chair of climate works. I think that demonstrates how university research, applied research can help get universities started. So they've got a good base in that they've got a lot of experts within the organization to provide the knowledge base to start. Did you find that a help? Absolutely, because it's sort of laid out. We've developed the pillars over time, but it set out those initial four pillars of things that we would focus on. So under efficiency we've done all of our lighting, we've done our heating upgrades, we've got off-site renewables and on-site renewables, and then electrification. This is the big one, it offsets with the end. We've added some additional pillars in there, but definitely having that roadmap set out is what you need to do. It was very helpful. Four points to decarbonize. First, energy efficiency, so be as efficient as you can. Second, renewable energy. Third, using that renewable energy to electrify everything. And fourth, reducing non-CO2 emissions. So it's a pretty sort of simple recipe, but it's when you then have to translate that into action that it starts getting more complex. Well, Dana Weisberg, you joined Tufts University in 2022, working with the senior leadership to further Tufts' commitment to be a higher education leader in sustainability and climate matters. You're working across the university to bridge education, co-curricular, and research activities, and prior to being at Tufts, you were at Smith College, the position of Associate Vice President for Campus Planning and Sustainability and COVID-19 Administrator. Well, can you tell us about your experience, I guess, both at Smith and Tufts in this journey? Yeah, I'm really happy to be here. So thank you for the invitation. It's really nice to meet people in person who I worked with on the NetZero on-campus project. So Smith College was one of the institutions that signed onto the president's climate commitments in 2007, and I think we can honestly say that we didn't know what we were doing. And we did a climate action plan that is, I believe it's still online, if you want to see what I would consider a not-very-good climate action plan. And we redid it and redid it over and over again. And in the spring of 2022, the institution approved its largest capital investment in its history to essentially electrify its campus in a cold environment. So that project is under construction and will go online in a year from now. So that's very exciting, and I've shown up to Tufts University to attempt to do that trick again, right? And in a much bigger university as rural, suburban, and urban campuses. And you talked there about financing there. Can you tell us a bit about the financing and how that worked? Yeah, I mean, I think one of the big... There's sort of two big challenges, I think, that confront institutions as they decarbonize. And one of them is decarbonizing campus is mission-adjacent, but it's not the mission. So if I have $1, and I say to the Board of Trustees, I've got $1 to spend. We could spend it on a library or in classrooms or on laboratories, or you could spend it on energy infrastructure. The immediate answer is we're going to spend it on classrooms or libraries because that's core on mission, right? So I think it's really important to position these projects as deeply part of the mission and when the project goes forward to ask for the money and the approval that it's seen as core to mission. In the case of Smith College, we... I'll be totally honest. It's a wealthy institution with a large endowment. And I will say that our chief financial officer made a very smart play in the midst of the pandemic and was able to float bonds at a very, very favorable rate. At the time that was done to save the institution in case the pandemic didn't end, when we learned that we were okay, then it was a question of, you know, this is our next big priority and we worked with our Board towards approval. John, can I just pick up on one point that Dana said? So it's important, I think, especially for students to understand this integration between what is the mission of the higher ed institution you're a part of and what is the relationship between that and the physical infrastructure of these buildings or the operations. Because if you don't make that case and then you just stay frustrated when you say, why aren't you spending money on our net zero campus? And the administrator, the president, the provost is saying, because we educate students here buildings are like a byproduct of that but it's not really the critical thing that we do is like take care, like we have to have them but it's not the most important thing. You are missing a huge opportunity to leverage both of those things. Because you can say we need to practice what we teach in the way I'm going to experience this educational curriculum as it relates to my future and the future of the planet is to have a place where I can explore and study and learn that itself is a laboratory for all these things that I'm learning out of this book. So I think it's like a lesson for the students about this integration that often is missed and a great place for students to advocate for this integration of both of those things. And if I might, I mean I think that to get over that hurdle that I mentioned about how institutions spend money in our case because we had been deeply integrating the planning work with faculty research and student learning. When we went to the board it was students who walked through the complex technology and it was students who walked us through the complex policy environment that we are in now. And so when it... And facing the board in that way the board didn't have to ask do students care about this? Do faculty care about this? Is this part of the mission? We sort of were showing we didn't have to tell. I think that's a really important point that students can have a huge impact on the decision making process. And I know in Australia and I'm pretty sure it was the same in the States the whole divestment movement was quite influential. Students were saying to universities why do you own shares in fossil fuel? And universities were grappling with that and at the same time students were saying well what are you doing to turn our campus into a safe decarbonised campus? And in the next iteration as we're implementing what role do students have? Perhaps Tim, do you see... Can you just... I was going to say on the... definitely we're both saying about that wider value case and not just about the buildings but it is the wider value case that there's research and teaching linked to it. But definitely at Monash it was that protest from students around divestment from fossil fuels it was a coordinated effort amongst I think nine or so Australian universities and that really big pressure and that's my understanding that that's set up the ESG, the first ESG committee and ESG report where we started laying out these targets that we're going to do around divestment from fossil fuel and that's your emissions. So definitely the advocacy of the students. Yeah, well perhaps it'd be worth reflecting on what have been some of the enablers and what have been the barriers to this transition and at zero for universities. If I ask all of you to look at both those, that's the enablers and the barriers, Tim. Yeah, I mean enablers there's so many institutions at least here in the US there's about 4,000 higher ed institutions in the US and oftentimes being the first mover is the hardest thing. So the fact that we have roughly 10% of that as institutions that have made this commitment actually allowed for other institutions who are not going to be the first off the bench to actually take the same type of action. So I think there's a really important role for leadership in making bold and aggressive target setting something they're going to take the first step on so that it gives permission for others who are waiting for that first person to go to go and that's kind of part of movement building but it is I think an effective way if we think about enabling to continue progress is through having and ensuring that some people are able to lead and then that allows, gives permission essentially for others to lead here in the US it's so diverse politically that certain parts of the country you're just never going to have anybody even leading on climate because they can't even maybe say climate in their state but you might have an institution saying we're going to lead on innovation which by the way we're going to implement through all of these climate activities that you in Massachusetts or in New York are calling climate leadership we're going to call it something else but it's the same activity so giving permission in those places for institutions to follow in different ways I think is really important. We've got attention with this whole bleeding edge, bleeding edge so at Lawn Ash because we've been first on a lot of things we kind of say we're at the bleeding edge so it is a real tension between wanting to be at the forefront of things but then operationally also getting a benefit from what you implement that's probably been a barrier sort of challenge we've gotten some really good research outcomes for some projects but then operationally they haven't been as successful so I think just the university executive having that understanding is important to know on that. I think that's a really interesting one I might just explore that the things that go wrong which they do and part of the reason once again we did this guide is to help people understand that and that there are case studies not everything works but one of the roles of the university is to take risks that probably government or businesses don't and to do more innovation in the way we do the net zero transition are there areas without going into too much detail but what sort of lessons do you think you've learnt from things that haven't worked as well as we'd hoped? It's my air crash investigation analogy that it wasn't one sort of thing it was a whole series of little things that caused it to not go well but it has been as I said new start up technology that probably over promised under delivered latent conditions so we do have the benefit of the university that you can play around in the environment and we don't have the same commercial pressures as a corporate there's learnings out of latent conditions and what you think might plug in doesn't actually plug in and then actually changes in operational procedures and processes so just because we put in high end technology to manage energy flows between buildings we didn't then do changes to how the services team might actually manage that technology and use it so it's that transition from concept to ongoing operation Right and Dano what would you say are the enabling factors and the barriers in your experience? I've sort of radically changed my theory of change I think initially when the idea of creating an office like mine or Kendra's was envisioned there was this notion not incorrect that the institution was performing here and students were learning that we should be operating here and so we had a gap and students were having cognitive dissonance between saying the world should be like this but they look around at campus and they see it's here and so our initial job was to go close that gap and say we're going to take the imperfections of the institution and perfect them it turns out that's difficult to do the institutions are it's hard for institutions to be much ahead of the society that we're in the culture, the economic system so I've sort of changed and twisted on that and said rather than trying to close that gap I want to exploit that gap and open that gap to teaching and learning for students and for faculty research and when we do that an interesting thing happens which is then it's seen as part of the mission and then you start to close the gap but it's because of that sort of co-creation of the solutions and the participation and the creation of kind of a campus-wide ethos of that this is about education and the development of knowledge sort of an operational effort to make things better and it's a subtle but it turned out to be a very important kind of innovation that we made initially at Smith College and one that my great team at Tufts and I are trying to pull together and how did you actually achieve that though because universities are set up generally in a fairly siloed way where operations are in one part and education is in another and research is in another. How do you bring those three components together? I think there's a lot of different ways to do it and it really is you know deeply thinking about there's no question that universities are deeply siloed between their operations and the academics and the administration and so we need to think creatively about ways to bring that together at Smith College we literally merged our academic center for the environment and our campus sustainability office we pushed them together I became the administrative director and I had a faculty colleague who became the faculty director and we really tried to join up and provide funding into the research and teaching and learning systems that helped focus on the challenges that we were manifesting on campus that were reflective of our larger societal challenges so we literally put it together in terms of governance at Tufts it's a much bigger institution and so we're thinking about it much more in terms of the programs that we're developing out of the sustainability office that are really focusing on curricular integration, focusing on research integration and teaming up with the folks who are developing the larger academic plans and the visions of a learner in the provost's office and saying here are the ways that we can help execute on this larger vision of the institution about preparing students for a world in which these are the proxies for the really complex difficult conditions that they're going to enter into and we can help we have the problems right here let's have the students exposed to them, let's have them work on them in the interest of making them effective once they leave because that's truly our that's our first biggest impact that we can make as an institution so just talk a bit more about that so are students involved in this as part of one of their subjects or curriculum or how does that work? Yeah it can happen in any number of ways and it's a little bit more art than science to make it happen well but I'll give you a couple of examples at Tufts this semester we're really focusing our curricular engagement program around our carbon footprint and the development of a carbon roadmap for the institution so for example we worked with the procurement office to get all of our procurement data because we have under investigated our supply chain or scope 3 emissions our supply chain based emissions and so now we have the data there is a greenhouse gas accounting course that is going to take the first pass at that data and try to do sense making I don't know what they're going to come up with they will present their findings to the director of purchasing and we will then have a story to tell to campus about our own purchasing data and our own students co-creating some sort of an analysis that helps make us better and helps them learn something about the really complex world of supply chain and Kendra how have you seen students involved well I was going to say it's that same sort of thing that it was in our I guess between that operations and research and teaching so there is the whole university strategic plan that had a commitment to have the campuses be exemplars of environmental practice and then the operations plan that sat under that it was a goal in our buildings and properties strategic plan I guess that enabled us as buildings and property staff to do more of that engagement and look for the opportunities and then also apply for like joint funding and grants to try things and then also on the students I guess it's a bit we could probably learn from you and get some more governance around it so I think where we are now is that it's been ad hoc students will email us they want to get involved we do do some programs with MSDI and the green steps program we do do stuff with various courses we have an accounting one that's going to look at some of our data so out of everything we've done so far there's now a is it DVC of research infrastructure I think which came out of the need that we need a bit of governance around that engagement between operations research and teaching so Tim you can sort of look at this from a helicopter because you've got so many universities how many of the universities are complete or near complete or what stage are they and do you have some lessons from that that you could pass on so our program is based on this concept of carbon neutrality a little bit different than that zero we used to think that that was an endpoint you achieved carbon neutrality and we've had 12 institutions that have met that goal we don't think that anymore actually so we think of neutrality and I would even say net zero as a milestone not an endpoint so it is one of the ways in which your institution leads on climate there are many other ways that it can both support that goal and extend well beyond that goal because the end game is not just for your own institution to achieve net zero or to be carbon neutral it's for society to actually meet the climate goals that we have set for ourselves collectively so in that sense this goal setting process is really important and the successes are really important relative to our GHG accounting and how much we've achieved but it's very much like not the end game for us when we look at the campuses that have done have achieved those carbon neutrality goals like American University in Washington DC they did it physically and they integrated a lot of it across their curriculum embedded it into their research practice so it is a whole of the institution approach and the reason why that's important you know I said our model is based on senior leaders making a commitment senior leaders last about five and a half years here in the US presidents and chancellors so they will go they will be gone by the time you even really start to dig into the meat of your plan and you have to have institutional buy-in across more than just that single person or that single office if you want to extend it into other areas so that's where I think we would see a more holistic approach to climate leadership beyond just here's the target that we're all looking for even if that's the one thing that's really easy to measure and count the successes that we've seen we would say like community colleges are doing amazing things here in the US they have a very very difficult path to carbon neutrality because two-thirds of their emissions come from vehicles that are commuting vehicles that are from off-campus until we electrify our vehicle fleets and individual personal vehicles they are not going to meet that target and that's okay they have other strengths and we just need to I think focus on that that whole of institution approach so you talked about universities going beyond just the commitment and the delivery of the emission but and I think you also talked about how it should influence the research and the education what about going beyond the university campus though how do we start to impact the precinct the cities around us maybe Dana do you have some thoughts about that we are in four different municipalities and the United States is very broken up into very small pieces of governance and we are interacting with those communities all the time on a wide range of issues and we are in a really important co-dependent relationship with our communities and right now we talk to them quite a bit about one of our communities has just made a net positive commitment as a community great I said what that means well we are working on it we might be able to help you with that you know I think right we are it's harder for us to mechanically integrate and think in the way that it sounds like maybe Manash is but I think in terms of thinking through policy and thinking through the ways that we can collaborate on policy development and because we are sharing the same goals but the way we get to them is quite different and there's a lot of room for overlap we are going to host a little mini conference with our communities this coming in 2024 specifically on new approaches to electrified district heat we hope that because we're a district system we hope that our communities will sort of start thinking about we have a district expertise and maybe they'll start thinking about district solutions but you know it doesn't matter like where you're located so now Tufts is like in basically Metro Boston Smith is like the middle of nowhere so like your relation as a campus so Columbia middle of city like upstate New York campus very different so I guess I would wonder your relationship with your community when your infrastructure is shared in very different ways how would you think about that I have a good colleague who says show me one university and I'll show you another university I mean they are right this is the it takes a while to sort of identify what's your unique offering in relationship to your local community and it might it might be mechanical it might be policy it might be you know we lent our local community a building because one of their schools had a structural problem and they had kids on the you know there's a lot of different ways that this happens around the world and it's really important that we you know when we think about the mitigation work that's tends to be a little bit more in our campus when we start thinking more broadly about resiliency that's always in collaboration with our communities and our regions and so it's we're going to tip outside you know maybe you achieve net zero but you suddenly tip outside and you're in relationship with your community and you're thinking about how are we going to manage this the conditions that we're going to be in together and I think even though you say we're going to be net zero by a certain point it doesn't matter if you're a little island and net zero you're still in a bigger system around you so one thing that we've learnt at Monash is we're looking at beyond Monash to the whole precinct is that it's not just an engineering challenge it's very much a social science challenge too getting the governance right getting support from the community having contractual arrangements between the different parties and it's quite complex but universities are in a quite a good position to trial that and we have this research project looking at our precinct with researchers not just from electrical engineering or emissions reduction but also social scientists working in anthropology, sociology which you need if you're going to transition a whole community move on from that to a few more I guess challenging points and somewhat controversially offsets what's the role of offsets and should universities be using offsets to get to net zero maybe start with Tim and give me the heart I mean we think of them as a way to meet some proximate targets you might have without going into the whole quality of offset thing there are ways to do that that is also consistent with what we've been talking about which is integrating the academic the student and the research experience Colgate University is a good example where they've had a long standing relationship with an offset project in South America where part of the course is for students to go down, monitor participate in reforestation a reforestation activity based on goals that the university has and educational curricular targets that they have so I think the way the offset project is kind of like divestment like you say the word and people get cringey about it but if you think about the complexity you can bring to the topic itself is a very rich area to explore. We think of it as kind of a bridge thing you're theoretically impossible for the world to have offsets forever so you have to think of it as while we have offsets we're going to slowly work down that bucket to be small as possible in the future and the ultimate decarbonization plan should account for that but you intrinsically don't want to rely on it in the long term but for the short term it can pay some benefits. Campus folks might have different thoughts about that. We shouldn't use them we should strive to not use them however as you decarbonize any system the cost curve gets very steep and those last 10%, 5% of emissions become extremely expensive to eliminate and I think we can think about offsets as not a unitary device but it represents a really broad range of products that some are which are nonsense and some of which are actually high quality and I think it's actually an opportunity to loop back to your previous question Don, that's a space that we've investigated in the past of working with our communities to say are there ways that we can invest sensibly in our local community we have line of sites, it's educational and we know that it's a high quality output and that might be a good space to invest in offsetting. Kendra, did you have So yes, I agree with them all that you don't want to long term rely on them but there's some things like at the moment academics and me, I'm here fly a lot and the only way to really reduce those emissions is offsetting but the conversation that I'm starting to try and start having is do we have to so if we buy offsets we want that sort of impact investment and what impact does it have and what how can you link it to the research and teaching but also in Australia for example there is the Aboriginal Carbon Foundation so they have a lot of projects that will be eligible to create offsets but the issue that they have is they don't have the capital funding to get the projects up and off the ground so my question is as a research institution should we be worried about just the offsets at the end or would we invest in helping give those projects the capital to get going and I think that's a really interesting point too where offsets do have the opportunity to provide a whole lot of other benefits, multiple benefits beyond the carbon benefit so it can be a social benefit, can be a biodiversity benefit but by the same token they can be pretty crap too now I understand that we can have questions and I was going to be brought questions from the audience and I'm not sure whether that's happening but if I am if they could be brought through but while we're waiting for that Kendra did mention another unmentionable which is flights and scope 3 emissions which is probably the biggest challenge in universities because as organisations it is very much part of our mode of operating to travel to go to conferences like this to collaborate with researchers and educators from around the world and while we're moving more and more to being hybrid and online there's still going to be a level of travel how much when we're making commitments to net zero should we be including scope 3 Tim? Well it's part of your footprint so I think you should include it I do think that you have to recognise the limits to what you can what you have control over and what you have influence over those are two different things the things around air travel specifically you should be advocating and figuring out how to decarbonise air travel and your research community and others that you work with should work with the airlines to figure that out we had actually a group of about seven large universities in the US talk to three different major airlines talking to them about how they wanted to have carbon-free air travel for their faculty and students because of this issue they're like we're not going to not have international student travel for example they want students to have that experience so how could that happen and that started a very constructive dialogue which extends to this day and I think that's the biggest part of a lot of scope 3 including air travel is just how do you engage with other stakeholders beyond just your own operational footprint that you normally wouldn't talk to and starting those conversations can be some of the hardest things because you don't have relationships with them necessarily what's your Dana you mentioned supply chain so yeah I mean I think you know we roughly know that air travel is one of our three big hotspots within our supply chain it's probably air travel food and construction and I actually prefer to look at the whole I prefer to look at the whole thing air travel is tough and we have one faculty member who's very engaged in the flying less initiative and he's been piloting projects in his school doing virtual events and so that's been a really nice sort of effort to raise the awareness what I learned yesterday was that our our dining program had been measuring their carbon footprint and in fact by changing menus lowered their carbon footprint they say in the dining area by something like 17% I didn't even know they were doing that I didn't know it was happening that's a big number of pretty stunning outcome and I'm really interested in getting into the supply chain more deeply because I wonder if there are some other quick wins and we really badly need quick wins right now to change our our missions profile and so are there other quick wins out there that we that might have real impact because I feel like air travel is not a quick win it's a slow win so that's my sort of broader question I think that's a great point about food and I know there's a report that was done in the UK on the circular economy which identified changes in food habits as one of the quickest ways to have major reductions in emissions and you think of eating less red meat less packaging maybe eating a little less I have to say probably good for our health as well so there's some great opportunities there we're just about out of time but if I'll ask each of you if you had to choose one thing that's the most important element in net zero planning what would it be and if I start with you Dano I'm just going to come back to sort of as deeply integrating those faculty research and student learning activities into the planning and execution is really really important for institutions because it brings the whole it brings mission coherence to the effort Kendra I would say financial literacy for students to financial what? Literacy to understand how operational budgets work capital budgets work not in depth but just to understand that financial aspect not only of your institution but just of the system generally because if you want to and just on that who has to understand that in what way? Definitely for students so that's one thing I think having done my environment degree I didn't really learn much about financial literacy like I knew you'd get a you wanted to return on investment and you'd say this but learning more about how universities fund themselves finance themselves what sort of types of capital they might be open to doing it so it's really familiarizing yourself with that. Right and Tim every university if you ask a leader they will say they don't have enough resources so it's never a question of do you have enough resources not no one has enough resources they will always tell you that and that's because they're thinking of resources in like a dollars and cents term our universities have amazing assets that could be mobilized to address climate in a variety of ways so I think the best way to think about not just developing a plan but implementing a plan is mobilizing all of the resources you have at your university and don't think about it in a scarcity mindset we don't have enough resources everyone thinks that you actually have tons you just haven't tapped them yet and you just need to look harder at your university to figure out where those assets are that you maybe didn't even think of as potential ways to help you accomplish your goals. And I think it is fair to say I know Monash has found that what seemed expensive a few years ago sometimes turns out to be quite a good investment and four or five years ago renewables seemed like they were going to cost a lot more and yet now with the price of gas for example going through the roof renewables look pretty good. That's the one good thing about gas prices tripling is that the electrification looks better. As you say it's how you look at that resource question well this has been a great discussion I think we're just about out of time though but can you thank this panel and we'll get ready for the next session. Thanks very much.