 Hello and welcome to NewsClique. The dispute between Tamil Nadu and Karnataka on sharing the waters from river Kaveri has a long-standing history. Again, the government of Karnataka has initiated a step, a project for constructing another check dam across the river called as the Meghadadu project. To discuss more about this and the dispute surrounding the project, we have with us Professor Dr. Jagadarajan, a former professor of Metas Institute of Development at Karnataka. Welcome sir. Thank you. So to begin with, the government of Karnataka has shown very keen interest in initiating this particular project across the river Kaveri. With a long history of disputes, what will be the impact of this project or what do you see as the reason for the government of Karnataka initiating such a project? I look at it in two ways. Actually, you know, you used a very mild language that he is keen in constructing the reservoir at Meghadadu and he is not keen, he is aggressive. Not only he is aggressive, all politicians combined together show aggression in constructing the what they call the balancing reservoir at a place called Meghadadu. Now, one can take a very lean in view of the matter, saying that go ahead. If you constructed it, it is not going to be a big deal for us. Please go ahead, you can do that. But you know, we cannot afford to do that because we are not opposing the Meghadadu project. That is Tamil Nadu government and Tamil Nadu people are not opposing the Meghadadu project for the sake of opposing. We are opposing because it is our livelihood issue. It is our problem of drinking water issue. Now, Karnataka is talking about the drinking water problem in Bangalore. And we are talking about the drinking water problem in the entire state. Almost 1.5 crore people in Tamil Nadu depend upon Kaveri water for drinking and about 5-6 districts, the agriculture depends upon Kaveri water and which means about something like 1 crore people depend upon agriculture for Kaveri water for agriculture, that livelihoods. About 30-40 lakhs people are small, marginal and landless agriculture labors. That agriculture depends upon the Kaveri water. Just imagine if the dam is constructed, I think it is gone. The river downstream of Karnataka will become dry. It will become a barren land and we cannot afford to allow it. We cannot do it and it is suicidal. If we allow this project, it is going to be suicidal for Tamil Nadu. I tell you why. You can ask me why? Because already as per the Tribunals Award, if you look at the original, the interim award, we were supposed to get 205 teams of water. That was the interim award. Now that became a big issue and there was a lot of woe and cry. In 1992, I still remember and people had driven out of Karnataka. There were lots of damages to property for Tamils and so on. Just ridiculous measure they took. Even the people said it is only interim award. People are not willing to listen, including politicians. Anyway, it got dragged on. In 1987, we had the final award. As per the final award, in 1997, we were supposed to get 192 teams of water. That was the final award. But we all thought that was the end of the matter and we were very happy and so on. Karnataka for a while felt happy but then suddenly they woke up and said we are not happy and we are going to go to the Supreme Court. And in Tamil Nadu, unfortunately, at that time, the opposition party was Jairalitha, ADMK. She was making big human cry saying that no, no, we are going to lose our rights over Cauvery Water and we cannot accept it. And it became such a big political issue. And then Karnataka had to budge. She then Chief Minister. She also had to really agree. And then finally, all of them went to the Supreme Court. So, Kerala, Tamil Nadu, Pandicherry, Karnataka and everybody went to the Supreme Court. I must tell you something here. The tribunal constituted by the constitution and this tribunal is as powerful as Supreme Court in terms of giving the verdict. Now that we got the verdict, even the tribunal, they make a statement. If you have any problems with the award, please come back to us for a supplementary award and you can seek a review, you can file a review petition. File a review petition, we will reconsider. You can think about what can be done. This is in fact in the tribunal's award. They said it. But these states, instead of going back to the tribunal, which means instead of strengthening the tribunal, all of them went to the Supreme Court with what is called the special leave petition, SLP. So, Supreme Court in all its wisdom, Supreme Court in all its modesty should have advised all these contending states to go back to the tribunal saying that look tribunal is ultimate authority. We have no business to interfere. You go back to the tribunal and they will look into it. But instead of doing that, they allowed all special leave petitions. That is the biggest blunder. That is the biggest blunder made by us, other states and Supreme Court allowed it, I don't know for whatever reason. So, Supreme Court after allowing it in 1987, slept over it. Slept over it for so long until 2018. For 21 years, the Supreme Court stepped over it and finally in 2018, they came out with what they call the verdict or order. As per that order, they reduced, further reduced to the tribunal to share from 192 teams a feet to 177.25 teams a feet, saying 14.75 teams a feet has got to be allocated to Bangalore for the drinking purposes. So, Bangalore drinking water problem has been addressed and our share was reduced and we were worried and finally we thought, okay, let it go once and for all with this and let us be at least happy that there will be some water flowing. That's what we all expected. But at that time, I maintained that this is not going to be the end of the matter. I said it, I wrote about it and I knew that this was not going to be the end of the matter. For the simple reason that the government of Karnataka was always releasing the surplus water. After filling all the reservoirs only, they were releasing the surplus water. So, the surplus water was whenever the surplus water was coming into the state, I mean, we thought okay, it's very good and so on. But the tribunal has very clearly indicated month-wise scheduling of the release of water. Until today, I tell you, except for a few years, since 1991, I have looked at the data, until from 1991 onwards till 2018-19 until today, except for a few years, those were the good years. On most of the years, the monthly scheduling of the water was not released. See June, July, August, September, October. These five months are very crucial for us. During these five months, 80% of the release of the water should have been done. 80% of the release, that is 80% of 171.25 teams of water should have been released and should be released during these five months. June, July, August, September, October. But if you look at the data, it's abysmally poor. Abysmally poor. It is extremely low. And at the end of the season, at the end of the year, they will say, well, they have given you already water. They have given you 180 teams of it. 190 teams of it. We don't want water in November, December, January, when we got North East Monsoon. So, when all the needs are met, when there is heavy rainfall towards the end of the North East Monsoon, towards the end of the South West Monsoon, or at the beginning of the Monsoon, the North East Monsoon, they keep releasing the water and then tally the account saying that we have given you water. This is absurd. This is a cheating. This is a cheating. This is a disappointing. This is also in a way not adhering to the principles of equity and the order of the Supreme Court and the tribunal. This is not acceptable at all. This is what they have been doing. But let me tell you one other thing. They always claim that the river flows through us. First, we have to meet our needs and then only give you water. And they all think that the recovery is our water and so on. First of all, you cannot want water in a river. No state can want water. River is a river water. And no state can claim ownership on river. No state can climb the river. River water is only our water. And we will have to fulfill the river, our needs and then only we can give you water. And these are all absurd statements. They cannot really do that. But the simple reason that the rivers see no boundary, rivers flow according to the gravity and according to the topography. And there is no state. Nobody can really hold the water. Nobody can stop the river flow. This is a principle. This is a common principle of the hydrology. Now, on top of that, what Karnataka does is, if there is a heavy rainfall, if there is a heavy flood, then they let the water downstream. Let the flood water downstream and then we have to suffer. So, if you think that you own the river, if you think that you own the river water, keep all the water to yourself. Don't let not even a drop of water, even the flood water. Why did you reduce water in 2018? Heavy flood. Even now, see, they have released something like 36,000, 40,000 tons of water. Even today, as on day today, they are releasing water because the dams are full. Keep the water I say. Keep everything to yourself. Don't release it. That is where I maintain that river water cannot be held. You cannot. You always have to share and you always have to have a good will with your neighbors. You always have to develop a good will with the lawyer appearance states. Otherwise, nobody can survive. No rivers can survive. You will only be killing the river and you cannot create a river. So, this is the standoff between Karnataka and Tamil Nadu. Under these heated conditions, the very experienced Chief Minister of Karnataka with all his wisdom in the floor of assembly, making a statement, a radical statement, what he calls a radical statement that he would at any cost construct a dam at a Megadethu at a cost of 9,000 crores in the floor of assembly. This is unethical. This is unwarranted. You cannot do that. It's a political statement. You may have a political gain out of it because assembly election is coming next year. You may have some agenda behind it. You may have some kind of a political agenda. You may gain, have some political gain. But do you know how it has affected the downstream farmers, their psyche, that people have become so anxiety that their anxiousness has gone up so terribly, that they started worrying because already water is flowing. If you are going to construct a Megadethu dam, it's going to be disastrous. That is why farmers here are feeling terrible and that is why the entire state and the entire farming community are feeling not just anxious, they are feeling outrageous. So, the government of Tamil Nadu has passed a resolution against the construction of the project and they have met the union minister as well to deny, demanding to deny permission for the project. So, do you feel that the government of Karnataka has its rights to construct or even propose such a project? Not at all. So, I tell you, the Karnataka has no right. Karnataka government has got no right to construct a dam without constructing their neighboring states and downstream states, riparian states. They have no business, absolutely not possible, absolutely unethical and absolutely legally not possible without consulting any kind of intervention on the river, cannot be done and should not be done, shall not be done. The tribunal is very powerful. People don't understand and the Kaveri management board is very powerful. So, they have to approach the Kaveri management board or what they call the Kaveri management authority and the tribunal and the Supreme Court strengthen their hands. That is very important rather than talking to the political bosses at the centre. It is very important to strengthen these legal institutions and the government of Tamil Nadu should go back to them and file a petition, very strong petition after passing the strong contempt resolution in the floor of Tamil Nadu Assembly. In the beginning, you said that the allocation of water to Tamil Nadu has reduced over a period of time. In the interim award or in the final award, it has reduced. So, does that anything, is that related to the reduction in the cultivable land in the delta districts and the increase in the land? Quite a lot, quite a lot, quite a lot. You see, our agriculture command area originally was at 28 lakh acres. So, it has reduced to 17 lakh acres. 17 lakh acres, that's also uncertain. Kurve is almost gone. Kurve crop is supposed to be grown in 4.5 lakh acres in the delta region, particularly in Tanjavur and below. It is almost gone. Wherever groundwater is available, people try to grow Kurve crop. But otherwise, growing Kurve crop with the supply of the recovery water is a history. People and Tamil Nadu farmers are very happy if they get water for one full crop, that is samba season. So, they are happy at least if they can get water for one full crop for one season, at least in a year, they are happy, that is samba season. That begins in August, September and goes on to January February. And even for that, it is uncertain. Because only if you start receiving water in June, you can store water up to August to September and before the onset of the monsoon, you can release water for growing nursery and transplantation. And then when the northeast monsoon sets in, the crop growth picks up. But even that is not possible, even that is uncertain. See, unless you have something like 100 feet of water stored in the metro reservoir, you cannot release water technically, because then you will lose water. Because you will find at the end of the season, you will not have water. That is why it is important that we need water, we have to receive water from the month of June onwards as prescribed by the tribunal. That is not being done. You see, in many parts of Kaveri Delta today, and there are lots of people who say that, look, if there is no water, why don't you shift your crop pattern? I must tell you something. See, 70% of the soil type, 70% of the soil type in the Delta is a plastic clay. 70%, many people don't understand this. So, you have to talk to the agronomist. They know better. 70% of the soil type in the Kaveri Delta is a plastic clay. No other crop is possible except for padding. It needs continuous watering. If you stop watering even for a day or two, then the land cracks. It cracks actually. That is also cracking clay, plastic clay. It is a very risky proposition for farmers. They spend thousands of rupees and if they don't quarter, they lose. Lose the crop is going to compensate them. So people are living in the world of uncertainty. I think people, I mean, I have done a huge project in the Kaveri Delta. I spent three years in the Kaveri Delta. I know that that flight. I know how bad that living conditions are. I know why people are committing suicide there. The situation is terrible going from back to forth from day to day. It is a situation which I think you would not have, you would not really even imagine their flight. The conditions are really, really bad. There aren't a few who survive because they have access to groundwater. Those who have access to one-day canal water, their life is miserable. And 80% today, 80% of 75 to 80% of farmers in Kaveri Delta are small and marginal and whose land-holding size is five acres and below. What will they do? They do, they do look for all kinds of odd jobs. So this is the situation. On top of that, if there is going to be a reservoir in Magadathu, imagine what is going to happen. I want to, I must tell you one other thing. See already in Magadathu, already we are not, as I said earlier, we are not receiving water as per the monthly schedule. And I already said that from interim award onwards, our share of water has come down drastically from 205 to 171.25 teams a bit. So when they construct the Magadathu reservoir, their capacity, storage capacity is going to be 67 teams a bit. So you think we will get water without that reservoirs get filled? We will not get water. Not only that, I must tell you one other technical point. The Magadathu dams, Magadathu reservoirs, dead storage level is 7.7.5 teams a bit, which means 7.5 teams a bit of water cannot be used, cannot be let down, cannot be drawn from the Magadathu reservoir, which means so much of water will be stored but even in a normal year, if that much water is stored, your share will come down drastically. You will not get any water. I think it is mind boggling. If you go into the details, it is terrible, terrible, terrible. I mean, at any cost, we have to stop this product. When the water doesn't flow into the sea continuously every year, I said there are hundreds of backwater canals from Cauvery, joining the Bay of Bengal. Except for once in 10 years or once in 5 years, some water flows into the Bay of Bengal. Otherwise, for many years, continuously these backwater canals remain dry. Therefore, the seawater intrusion has already taken place. And not only there is seawater intrusion, there is also coastal flooding. Coastal flooding. See, this evening your land will be dry. Tomorrow morning, that land is flooded with seawater because of the dryness of all the backwater canals. And 100% of the groundwater in Nagapattam district is Alain. And 70%, 70% of groundwater in Thiruvavaru district is Alain. And in Tanjavur, 60% of the groundwater is not Alain but Brackish. That means seawater is intruding pretty fast. And most of the Brackish water lakes, like Veda Ranim lake and also Pichawaram, Manguru forest, have become almost a saline. Because in Pichawaram, the Manguru forest should have a brackish water quality but it is saline. I calculated the area under the Pichawaram forest compared to 1971 and 2014. It looked like the area under the forest, Manguru forest has gone up. But when I went to the ground pruning, I realized that it is just a sea. Sea just come in. It is just a sea water. It is not a brackish water. So that is the kind of a situation we are emerging because of the lack of flow from the upstream. So that is why I am saying the upstream, the water flow from the upstream is extremely important to maintain your riverine ecosystem, your riverbed aquifer and your rock coastal ecosystem. Now all these things are drying. All these things are dying. Not at all good for us. And in the long run, we will pay a very big price for it. See, there is also an ecological issue. What is the ecological issue? See, the Megadoth dam, if they construct, there is going to be land submergence to the extent of 52 square kilometers, 52 to 55 square kilometers of dense forest area, is going to be occupied, is going to be submerged or are going to be destroyed. It is a wild life, a Cauvery wild life sanctuary, bird sanctuary. It is the floor of our own biodiversity. Everything will be destroyed. You may have your Megadoth reservoir for your short term reason of providing water to your Bangalore city. But what is going to happen to this floor of our own biodiversity and the western gods, who is going to pay for it? Entire nation, all the concerned states, all the states who share the western gods will pay a huge price for this. Already, as per the Mother Gadigal report, we have lost three-fourths of the dense forest in the western gods. So, if you are going to lose furthermore, our water supply, rainfall conditions, everything is going to get disturbed and there is going to be more landslides. This is disastrous, I tell you. This Megadoth reservoir is a disastrous project, disastrous project. I don't know who suggested it and why I don't know. I mean, good, well-meaning people, people with wisdom will not approve this project. I am telling you today, if you don't have people, only those who do not have the wisdom and the long-term imagination, only those people suggest this. But otherwise, people with the wisdom, they don't suggest this at all. Thank you, sir. Thank you so much.