 It's Sunday, March 21st, and this is For Good Reason. Welcome to For Good Reason, I'm DJ Grothe. For Good Reason is the radio show and the podcast produced in association with the James Randy Educational Foundation, an international nonprofit whose mission is to advance critical thinking about the paranormal, pseudoscience, and the supernatural. My guest this week is James Randy, James the Amazing Randy, a world-renowned magician skeptic and investigator of paranormal claims. He's really the central figure in the founding of the worldwide skeptical movement. Perhaps he's best known for the $1 million challenge in which the James Randy Educational Foundation will award $1 million to anyone who's able to show evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event under test conditions agreed to by both parties. James Randy has appeared widely in the media, including on Johnny Carson's Tonight Show Dozens of Times. He's also a regular on Penn and Teller's Showtime series Bullshit. He's received numerous awards and recognitions, including the MacArthur Genius Grant, the American Physical Society's Forum Award for Promoting Public Understanding of the Relation of Physics to Society. He's the author of many books, including The Truth About Uri Geller and Flim Flam. Welcome back to For Good Reason, James Randy. Hey, it's good to be here again. Randy, we're having you on the show to talk about something that some folks might wonder what it has to do with skepticism, but I think it's actually pretty relevant. We'll get into how relevant it might be later. So you came on the show to come out. Yes, that's exactly true. And I'm doing that now officially. And I think today is coming out day for me. Right. So coming out not as a skeptic, but as a gay man, you're 81 years old. It's kind of late in the game, right, to come out. Yeah, I've been gay all my life that I can remember since I was just a little kid. But it is about time. And I must tell you, DJ, the basic reason for it is and to come out on on Swift, as I've done and on this very program right now, is because to not do it would be dishonest by omission. And I I don't quite like that terminology either. But it's about time that I that I did this. And there's no good reason for my not having done it up until now. And I'm so much relieved that I've done it. So we're talking about coming out. But in a real sense, you've been out for a long time to your close friends. I remember last November, when we were talking about you first coming out, you told me you wanted to. I wondered, was it really all that necessary because your loved ones, the folks at the J ref, your close colleagues and friends and skepticism and magic, they all know that you're gay and a lot of gay folks consider it really a private matter, not worth talking about. You think it is worth talking about? Well, it's only worth talking about it, DJ, because again, by not coming out, that would be dishonesty by omission. And I owe it to all my friends out there to make a clean breast of it. I'm not the least bit ashamed or embarrassed by the thing, of course, as I'm sure you will understand. And most of our listeners, I'm sure, will understand as well. It's always been known, as you just said, that to all my friends, certainly my family and such and anyone who really knows me, they've known it implicitly, if not directly. And all of it said that I've never had any problem with it so far. So based on that rationale, you're 81 years old. Why haven't you done it a lot sooner? It's not all that controversial anymore, as you just posited. It hasn't been, you know, for quite a while. I came out as a gay guy when I was 14 years old or whatever. I never experienced any real problems from being out about my sexual orientation, call it that. And I'm sure if you came out in the 70s or 80s, it'd be a little different than coming out in the 90s or the 2000s. But the question is, why not sooner? Oh, I didn't have any reason to, particularly. I toyed with the idea and then thought, well, why? It's not all that important. Nobody really cares, anyway, when you come right down to it. And of course, I'm sure there's going to be certain repercussions, but we can get into that if you wish. Yeah, I want to talk about maybe what your critics might do with the news. But before we get into that, I want to ask a couple of personal questions about you as an 81 year old gay man. I think people might be interested. Well, you said early on in our conversation that you knew from childhood that you were gay. Did you try to live as a straight man at any point in your life? Or did you realize you were gay from early on and always accepted yourself as a gay man? I, as a teenager, remember a different day and age altogether that most people today wouldn't recognize unless they're my age that it was just something you didn't do. You never mentioned it. You never let on about it. You just had to to conceal the fact or just let it lie there and let people guess that they wanted to. I never made an issue of it. I couldn't afford to because the social setup was at that time that day and age, as I say, the social setup and the attitude that people had towards it would be very strong. It would have hurt my family, I'm sure, very much. Although my family, I'm sure, was always sort of aware of it. But they just never mentioned it. It was the idiot in the family that you don't talk about. The black sheep or whatever. The black sheep, whatever. Yes. And every family has gay folks in it. I remember as a little kid, you know, I had an uncle who was gay. And, you know, he'd always bring his friend to Thanksgiving. It wasn't really talked about, but people got what that meant. So your family probably guessed at it. But nonetheless, you were in the closet. Did you try not to be gay at any point or you just were secretly gay? No, I never made me attempt not to be gay. It's my basic nature and you would understand that, of course. And then any gay person would understand that it's just part of my basic nature. And I make new apologies for it. I didn't then and I don't know. Did you ever get involved with the gay rights movement? I know that during the period of Stonewall in the early seventies, you lived in New York City. I'm not sure if you were in New York during the Stonewall riots. Oh, yes, I was. And it was only a couple of blocks away. I lived in Greenwich Village, so I saw that whole thing unfold. Wow. But were you part of it? Or were you kind of on the outskirts of the gay community? No, I didn't have much interest in being part of it, frankly. And it wasn't that I was afraid or reluctant or anything. I just had very little interest in it. I knew what went on in my head and I was satisfied with that. And I lived with it one way or the other. Well, and to put this in context, you were a successful professional magician at the time. You weren't a gay rights activist. There wasn't much time or room in your life to have both of those things going on at the same time. Very, very true. Not only that, during that time, I also, for a couple of years, did a radio program, a major radio program out of New York. Is it accurate to say you were the successor of Long John Neville, that great, that great broadcaster? Yes, I took over the program after he left and went to another station. I was immediately invited to replace him the very next night. And I did so with quite some success until I ran into the Archbishop of New York, but that's a different story altogether. So you were in New York during the time period of the Stonewall Riots, but you had this magic career and this broadcasting career. You weren't a figure in the gay rights movement. You were in the closet. That's essentially, yes, but I wasn't hiding in the closet. I just found the closet door. There it was. I didn't necessarily retreat. As a matter of fact, you know, I should mention something else that I grew the beard very early on. But I grew the beard not to try to produce a macho image or any such thing. I've managed that without the beard. I grew it because I was a magician and it added to flavor on stage. And I still think it looks pretty good on me. Yeah, in fact, it's gotten a little bushier since after the chemo, right? Oh, yes, I've my chemo body is pretty well repaired now. And the beard is full and luxuriant. And I can actually comb it instead of just picking up the strands, you see. It's funny, you mentioned that you grew the beard. You were talking about you having the beard, you know, in closeted parlance. The beard is something a gay man has at cocktail parties. You know, the woman on his arm to make it that he can pass as a straight guy. You never tried to pass as a straight guy versus a gay guy. You were in the closet, but you didn't pretend that you were straight. You didn't have girlfriends and that sort of stuff. Did you? Oh, I had lady friends. But I wouldn't call them girlfriends, certainly nothing of that nature. But there was no protective coloration, DJ. I never adopted any kind of protective coloration. I was what I was and I am what I am, like Papa used to say. It was just there. And if anyone asked, I was quite frank and open about it. And they'd usually just shrug and say, oh, really? And that was the end of that. I never lost any friends or acquaintances because of it. I think I sold it rather well. And if you would have lost friends or acquaintances from coming out, they might not have been the sort of folks you wanted as friends or acquaintances. Exactly, exactly. And for all I know, I may have lost something that dropped away and decided not to have anything more to do with me. But I didn't care one way or the other, because as you say, they wouldn't be worth having. So, Randy, what gives with you always making jokes about how gorgeous Sophia Loren is? Well, for one thing, I believe she is gorgeous. And I've often used the joke or the excuse, if you will. I always say, that's not oil of au lait. There's some witchcraft going on here. So maybe I have to give away the million dollar price of Sophia. And I named my car my little Mayata. I named it Sophia. And that's just making light of the thing. I don't, again, there's no protective coloration involved here. I've never adopted that name anyway. So you've never told people that you were straight, even though you were gay. You're a man for whom the truth is primary value. So you're not going to lie to people in that way. No, no, not in any way. Now, I'm a tip, nothing else, I'm honest, also good looking. Yeah, well, there you go. Randy, you've been in a partnership, a long term relationship, a kind of marriage for many, many years. Let me ask you where you stand on gay marriage versus civil unions and all that. Oh, well, I would very much like to see the law be established that gay marriage is possible. And indeed, I've even considering doing exactly that. I'm after all, maybe one, you've got to hurry along, you know, you don't have all that amount of time. But if it were a little more widespread, perhaps I could just fall into it easily. But I don't see any reason for it. So let me make sense out of that there. You're saying that you would consider entering into a legal marriage with your partner of many years. What, if it were legal in Florida or it is legal right now in six places in the United States, would you to travel to those places, one of those places, get married? Or what are you saying? It might be a waste of time and airfare, matter of fact. DJ, because I would want it to be legal in Florida since I own property here and inheritance rights and all of those things I would want it to be legal here. Otherwise, it wouldn't be very effective for me. But if it were legal, you'd be all for it. In other words, what I hear you saying is that you think it should be legal everywhere. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. I certainly believe that. Yes. OK. The libertarian streak runs deep in some some of these skeptics who might be for civil unions for the right of people to enter into these legal relationships. But they might think marriage itself is a religious institution. Do you get bogged down in those distinctions or you just want equal rights? Well, I have no religious convictions whatsoever. So I guess the answer is evident. OK. I want to get something else out of the way. You're gay and you you just implied you're an atheist. Well, no religious convictions, but we've talked before. You're an atheist. So you're gay and you're an atheist. Well, Randy, I'm gay and I'm an atheist. So to set the record straight, the J.Ref board pursued me for the position of president of the J.Ref, obviously, because of those two qualifications, right? Hardly, no, as a matter of fact, I'd be quite frightened to be gay. I had not met you when the nominations were asked for for the new president of the J.Ref. And I had no name for for years, of course. I had not actually met you. And I had no reason to even wonder whether you were gay or not. And you fell into that position very nicely on as a result of your talent and your qualifications, not because you're sexual orientation in any way. And I wouldn't want anyone out there listening to this to this program to think for a second that the J.Ref is in any way gay oriented, the fact that we've got a couple of people. We've got a few people in here who are gay. There's no question of that. They make no bones about it. But I don't want anyone to think, oh, now this is a gay organization. Get out of here. That's ridiculous. Anymore than saying that it's a that is Protestant or it's an atheist organization. Well, it's interesting you said that, you know, there there has been some hand-wringing out there that you're an atheist and I'm an atheist. Therefore, is the J.Ref now an atheist organization? Well, if it is now because I'm an atheist, it always was because you're an atheist and you've always been kind of ruling the roost. But in fact, we're not an atheist organization either. That's very true. And I want to make one thing else very clear here just to make sure that we've swept floor clean here. I am an atheist of what I call the second kind. There are atheists, according to dictionary definitions such as Webster's, where the first meaning of atheists is one who denies the existence of the deity. Then the second classification is one who finds no sufficient evidence to believe in the existence of a deity. I'm of the second kind. I can't prove a negative. I can't prove that there isn't a unicorn in some place in South Africa. For example, I can indicate strongly that it's not very likely, but I can't prove the case. I cannot prove that there is no deity, that there is no God, no angel, no devil, etc. But all I say is I have not seen sufficient evidence to convince me of the contrary. OK, so to bring it back to your coming out, not only are you an atheist and you've been out as an atheist for a long time, but you're gay, you're coming out as gay. You're the leading public intellectual kind of skeptic out there. Do you think that the knowledge of you being gay is it going to undercut your credibility as a skeptic or maybe diminish your popularity or something? Have you considered that? Oh, yes, it's a great consideration for me. Of course, before I decide to make this announcement, there's public announcement, but I very much doubt there will be a negative reaction. I expect a good reaction, except from some of the woos out there, of course, who will celebrate the fact and they'll be titillated by this and they'll publish it all over the place. See, I told you, I mean, ridiculous people like that. I don't have to deal with it. And I shouldn't have to even think about it. I don't think it's going to have any impact, certainly on the James Randy Educational Foundation with the same foundation that we were just 48 hours ago. And we'll continue to be all the way through, I certainly hope. So you mentioned the woos, your critics, your detractors, some of your enemies in the psychic world, the kind of paranormalists. It sounds like you're not too concerned that they might run with the news that you're gay, try to tarnish your reputation, discount what you're saying for science and reason, because you just so happen to be homosexual. Well, they're they're welcome to try if they want. But I think the reaction is going to be very majority of the reactions are going to be very positive and or just neutral one way or the other. People shouldn't care. They shouldn't care whether I'm bald or not, or whether I have a beard or what. My emotional set up, my philosophical set up, my sociological view of the world and such, some of those things can be important. But they certainly shouldn't influence anybody in a negative fashion. People just mind their own damn business and let me go my way. Please. Thank you very much. Well, the confusion there is you and I get what you're saying. But on the other hand, mind your own damn business. But then you also come out and you make it. Everyone's business by saying, oh, by the way, I'm gay. Pay attention to this. Yeah, well, as I explained just a moment ago, it's just it's about time. I just want to be 100 percent honest if I were ever asked the question. I have always maintained that I would simply say yes. So what? And just look for the reaction. I've never been asked the question directly, certainly in a public way. But now I don't have to worry about answering that question. I wouldn't worry about it. Again, I have no fear about whatsoever. This is just another step in in my life. And tomorrow it will be the same as it was just yesterday. I get what you're saying. So you're not coming out in some big grand statement making sort of way. You're basically coming out and then saying now I've come out next subject. Exactly. Exactly. Let's move on. I want to end, Randy, by talking about skepticism and how it relates to homosexuality. Some folks might wonder what they have to do with each other. I think, in fact, there is something skepticism can do for or with homosexuality. Bear with me. I'll explain what I mean. A lot of cultural conservatives use a kind of pseudoscience to argue against gay rights and people who rail against pseudoscience should, I think, want to argue against it, right? Even if it has to do with culture war questions like gay rights. So cultural conservatives use junk science to argue that being gay or that gay parenting, I mean, leads to mentally ill children. They use fake science to argue that being gay is just not natural. That homosexuality is an aberration when, in fact, you find it widely among many different species. So in a real way, I think gay issues are skeptics issues. Yes, I would say they are indeed. I see a close relationship. I share your opinion on that, DJ. And I think that that could be developed a little bit more, as a matter of fact, and maybe we should put a bit of emphasis on it eventually when the occasion calls for it. Well, I agree with that. Not that this is the James Randy Educational Foundation for critiquing junk pseudoscience as regards gay rights. But widely, yeah, you're saying widely, and this is one of many issues. Certainly. I want to thank you, Randy, for joining me on For Good Reason to talk about these issues for for you coming out on the show. I appreciate the conversation. Well, thank you so much for calling, DJ. And to all the folks out there, you know, I am off the cruise now. I'm back at the J-Ref and I'm on email and any comments that you'd like to make, I'd be happy to to handle them. I expect a big reaction to this, but I don't think it's going to be a bad reaction. And I will answer your questions, frankly, and forthrightly. Thank you for listening to this episode of For Good Reason to get involved with an online conversation about today's show. Join the discussion at forgoodreason.org. Views expressed on For Good Reason aren't necessarily the views of the James Randy Educational Foundation. Questions and comments on today's show can be sent to info at forgoodreason.org. For Good Reason is produced by Thomas Donnelly and recorded from St. Louis, Missouri. For Good Reason's music is composed for us by Emmy Award nominated Gary Stockdale. Christina Stevens contributed to today's show. I'm your host, DJ Groathy.