 of the host of Think Tech Hawaii's Law Across the Sea program. Today we're going to meet with Hawaii lawyers who go across the seas and international borders as part of their professional activities. My guests are leaders within the Hawaii State Bar Association's International Law Section. I'll introduce each of them one at a time. They are Na Lan. Na is the chair of the International Law Section and is a director at Damon Key-Leong Kupchak Astrid. Rex Fujichaku. Rex is the vice chair of the International Law Section and is a partner at Bronster Fujichaku Robins. Steven Dyer. Steve is the treasurer of the International Law Section and is a partner at Chong, Nishimoto, Sia, Nakamura, and Goya, LLLP. Mark Levin. Mark is the director of the Pacific Asian Legal Studies program, the PALS program, as we call it, and a professor of law at the William S. Richardson School of Law. Mark serves as a liaison or bridge between law school students and the International Law Section. I'd like to welcome all of you. Thank you all for being here. I've asked you to share your insights on International Law and the Hawaii State Bar International Law Section. I'm gonna start with Na. You're the chair, so you get the honor of going first. Tell us, what is the Hawaii State Bar Association's International Law Section and what are its themes and goals? Thank you, Mark. As we all know, HSBA is the professional trade or association for all attorneys licensed to practice law in Hawaii. It offers, in total, I think there are 21 sections where active HSBA members you can choose to voluntarily join a section, and where one of them is called the International Law Section. Our section focuses on promoting collaboration, exchange events among legal professionals between Hawaii and other jurisdictions. We sort of function as the gateway. We hope to develop a maintain friendship network among our members and with other attorneys whose law practice involves cross-border transactions or disputes at international clients. We offer a platform for our members to share access connection and resources within our section. And also we would sponsor events from other sister organizations who share the similar goals and mission as our section. We also support communication between HSBA members and the University of Hawaii Law School faculty and students with international interests. Okay, wow, that is a lot. And my next question, we'll go to Rex and that's a difficult question. What is international law in the context of the cross-border law practice that Hawaii lawyers are involved in? Well, thanks, Mark. Traditionally, there are two types of international law that you would learn in law school. First of all is the public international law, which is the law or the legal relations between nation-state. And frankly, not a lot of lawyers practice public international law, especially here in Hawaii. I mean, there are a few people who may, there are some lawyers with the JAG at the Indo-Pacific Command here in Hawaii that may have to contend with international treaties with some of our allies. And that pertains to some of the public international law regimes that are applicable. For a lot of Hawaii lawyers, though, it comes down to what's called private international law, which is about treaty and some custom, generally, that may affect the citizen of country. And so these are international treaties, for the most part, that give duties and obligations and some rights for the citizen of these countries when they are caught in an international situation. So for example, a lot of litigators here in Hawaii may have discovery that they want to serve on people who are in other countries. And so there's a hate convention that pertains to taking deposition or serving subpoenas on people in other countries. And that lays out what needs to be done in order for valid service to occur. I was just talking to an attorney who handles immigration issues and there's a hate convention on child abduction. And that is really critical to sorting out the issues when you have kidnapping and other custody disputes amongst couples who are in different countries. And so that is the type of private international law that is more prevalent to legal practice here in Hawaii that a lot of legal professionals have to contend. Okay, all right. And so more of a private aspect. Now I'd like to ask Mark and Steve, any comments on that? Do you have anything to add to Rex's description of international comparative law studies? Practice. Go ahead Mark. Mark, I'll let you go first, Professor. Well, I think, thanks Mark for putting this together and I'm appreciating everything that's been said. One of the things that comes out of studying particularly comparative law, comparative law means sort of looking someplace else and seeing what their legal system is, is a better understanding of one's own system. Many places in the world don't have legal systems that look like ours. It's based in the Anglo-American legal system and most of the world uses a system based out of continental European law. It's kind of like the metric system is pretty standard around the world but we don't use it so much here. So it's really fantastic if our students are gaining an understanding not only of what they're doing here but what happens elsewhere. And then from that, they take it back and they understand what's happening here better. Okay, so that's the professorial viewpoint, Steve. Yeah, I echo. First of all, Mark, thanks for putting this together and having us on. I echo everything that's been said but especially following up on what Rex said about private and public international law, you won't find a lot of that here and even in the JAG offices, you won't find that much here. I was in the PECOM JAGO office for 17 years as a reservist. And anytime we had a private or public international law issue come up, it was usually handled by somebody up above our pay grade in the Pentagon. We're just out here in Hawaii but I think it comes up more here in Hawaii with cases involving different countries, foreign nationals who come here on vacation or are here for business and understanding that they're from a different system and from a different culture and they might not know, as Mark said, our Anglo-American system or be used to it and helping them along and understanding their perspective and helping to resolve whatever issues they have. You know, so what I hear from all of you really is a real practical kind of personal down-to-earth practice of international law. And I wanna ask you each, starting with Na, you know, what is your personal background or professional experience that attracted you to working across international borders? And are you presently still involved in that type of cross-border practice or what are you doing now? So how did you get involved and what are you doing now? Na, let's start with you. Yeah, so I was born and raised in China, which is a civil law country. So when I moved to the United States after I graduated from college and then started studying in law school, of course, US is a common law country. Naturally, I'm really curious about how these two social systems work, how people deal with similar problems in different approach. And I was also pursuing the Pacific Asian Legal Studies Focus Certificate when I was in law school, took Professor Wang Dai's international law class, which is fascinating. And after I graduated, I passed the bar starting my practice, I speak Mandarin, so which is also very useful when I'm assisting my clients who speak that language when they have either cross-border related transactional matters or dispute resolution matters, or even sometimes I hope my clients on COVID is planning issues when their assets could be located worldwide, the families are going to different restrictions to tackle issues. And on top of that, I practice immigration law. So this is really an area where I always close to my heart, my passion lies with it. I feel it's really meaningful to utilize my background, my language and to do something useful to my clients, add values to their life. Wow, that's really cool. Rex, what's your background and what are you doing now? Well, I think like a lot of people mark, my interest in international law stems from my level of travel. And my curiosity about other cultures and trying to learn and understand the different ways that we all live and try to get together in understanding what our different cultures and our different legal systems are all about. So I studied French in high school and in college and studied abroad in college. I also did a master's program in international studies and international law in particular. And after I graduated from the William S. Richardson Law School here in Hawaii, I started my career with the antitrust division of the Department of Justice during merger work. And I was on one of the first investigations where the department teamed up with what was then called the European Community in looking at a significant international merger that was happening. And so some of my initial work that I did as a young lawyer involves some international comparative aspects. And my present law practice right now, I do deal with clients who have international operations but mostly helping them out to understand how litigation happens here in Hawaii and help them understand how the US legal system works. Now that's very interesting too. And personal experience, it's kind of interesting that that's what drives you to professional involvement. Steve, I'm gonna ask you the same question. I mean, where are you coming from and what are you doing in the international? Yeah, I grew up in the Chicago area. International law was maybe the last thing on my mind. One thing led to another. I wound up having a double major in economics and Japanese in college. And that led to a year abroad in undergrad and then a two year fellowship at a Japanese law school in Japanese. And so I had to get my Japanese to that level. And then I joined the JAG Corps which is probably the world's largest law firm and the most international of law firms. There's 2,000 Army JAGs worldwide. So there's plenty of international law internationally related issues that come up, cultural differences, et cetera. So that's how I got my start. And then I stayed in the reserves when I went into private practice here and at Paycom and there were plenty of opportunities there to be connected with international issues. And in private practice here, like Rex and now we're saying we're constantly getting clients and dealing with cases with issues that are cross border, cross cultural. And to me, that's part of practicing international law. Yeah, that's very interesting. And again, I mean, just your personal experiences is driving you, Mark, please give us your story. So as I listened to my friends here speaking, what strikes me is their first place to go is to talk about their work. And of course, that makes sense. But I think it is true for all of us that there's a blending that goes on. We like the fact that we have connections across the sea. It just happens to be law that helps us make those connections. And so whether that's our clients, our students or other lawyers elsewhere that we have been fortunate to know, Mark, of course, you were very involved, I think, in helping the state bar association set up an important relationship, for example, with the Tokyo Daiichi Bar Association. And that has led to visits where lawyers from Japan come over here and vice versa, where delegations from here have gone over to Tokyo and really meaningful, important friendships. And so I think I don't wanna downplay the work, but one of the things that I think is a part of why we do this is we like it. It gives us an opportunity to make these connections that have been incredibly valuable for me. And I suspect for everyone else on today's talk. Yeah, and what I hear you also saying is that law facilitates, it's funny, law facilitates the arrangements that we develop personally and we just combine them. I really like that summary. And now you teach at the PALS program or you're in charge of the PALS program. What are your law students? Who are they and what do you teach them? What are they taught? What are the benefits of that education? Well, some of the benefits of that education are on today's talk because we have phenomenal alumni, including Rex and Na. Pacific Asian Legal Studies has been a part of the Richardson Law School pretty much since its foundation and that fits who we are, where we are and why we do what we do. And so we have students who come here because they want a chance to learn about law from elsewhere and international law. We have students who come from elsewhere who want to learn about American law, notably an LLM program, which allows foreign lawyers to come and study with us for just one year. And then I think we have this spinoff, this carryover for many years. I was invited, or several of us were invited to teach some classes in David Callie's real property class. So David would put a couple of weeks in April where he would give up, let go of teaching American property law and had myself, Larry Foster and Taeyong Baek, each teach classes. And so all of our students are then given this chance to learn that American law is likely gonna be their career, certainly gonna be the exam that they take when they graduate to get licensed. But it is both interesting and valuable to have an awareness of law that goes beyond the borders. And let's talk to one of your students, Na. I mean, how has that international and comparative law education helped you? And how does it help American and foreign law students once they start practicing law? I think one of the major benefits of learning comparative law is really, it helps you to recognize problems and find model solutions without having to just relying on your own experience or imagination. You learn how to respect the different perspectives where people live in different parts of the world view a same issue. And sometimes an issue may be like some other areas people are addressing that issue already where in your place, maybe that hasn't really gotten into that stage where you figure this is gonna be a problem that needs a legal solution. I think one of the good experience is when I attended the American Immigration Lawyers Association's conferences, many, many years ago the Europeans, they already come up with this law, GDRP, the General Data Protection Regulations focusing on providing protecting privacy cyber securities. And then the interesting part is just maybe a couple of years later we read all this headline news in US about all this data breach, like privacy's. But of course, our country isn't taking this uniform regulations throughout the federal level. Instead, we give each state this approach to address that issue. I think that's a very good example of how you have that background and then you gotta be better, identify issues for our kinds and also to deliver better solutions. When you can combine those resources you can get through that angle. That really explains the value of the education. Yes, Mark, what were you gonna? I'd love to add one thing, which is all of us today are here on the island of Oahu. But the HSBA International Law Sections membership is worldwide and that includes Richardson graduates who have, so it's not just that we're training lawyers who are going to be in Hawaii, but we have been training lawyers who have gone out and have some of Richardson's graduates have major leadership positions in some of the biggest law firms in the world, particularly with regards to East Asia because of our PALS program, also with regards to international commercial arbitration and other opportunities. So one of the things that I think the PALS program has been able to do is shape lawyers career tracks for those who will be in, remain in the state but also help develop career tracks for people who will go abroad, go elsewhere and then perhaps, and many of them in fact, come back. Okay, yeah, it sounds great. I mean, it's just this valuable law education and experience and connections, networking. Rex, I wanna ask you, I mean, after you've had that education, what advice would you give to young lawyers who are just starting the practice of cross-border law practice transitioning from law school? Well, I would say first of all is try to be the best lawyer that you can be. No US law as best as you can. And then you can apply that in dealing with council from other countries. But to a certain extent, you have to get the fundamentals. And for those who want to do international law as we've been talking about, I think the other important thing is to talk to those who are practicing either comparative international law or any kind of trans-border transactions and network. And I think what's really important for your viewers to know is that your host, Mark Schwab, has been instrumental not only in establishing our international law section with the HSBA, but also as one of the founders of the Inner Pacific Bar Association, which is a premier network of lawyers around the world. And it's an excellent opportunity to meet your peers and potential mentors who are practicing and just getting to know what it means to be an international law. Well, thank you very much for that nice words. I appreciate it. Steve, what practical experience would you suggest that would enhance a law student's education? You mean vis-a-vis international law if you're interested in that yet. Okay. Again, I echo what I heard from Rex and Nala, but speaking of Mark Schwab, Mark also, Mark and I are, he's my senpai. And for those of you who understand Japanese, you know that that means he's my senior and I'm his Kohai, his junior. And the reason we have this relationship is because Mark attended, as an undergrad, Sophia University's Europe Broad Program in Tokyo. I forget what year's Mark, but it was three or four years before I did. Okay, we'll leave it at three or four, yeah. So that's something certainly you can do, do what you're abroad. You'd be amazed how it opens your eyes to so many things, you know, not only language, but how people think differently and act differently and customs. It's really amazing. So that would be one thing. The other thing is go for it. Try something different. I don't mean to do it intentionally, but in my own case, joining the JAG Corps, that's kind of something that a lot of people don't think about is, oh, I don't want to join the military and the army and geez, I could get killed. Well, you could get killed walking across the street. The opportunities for growth and like Rex said, networking, meeting people, you know, encountering issues and cultures that might get you interested and pull you in or lead up to a position or work or a job that you might be really interested in or unlimited really. And like Mark said, whatever you're doing, do it well. And as long as you're honest and hardworking, the world is going to be your oyster. Well, and what common thing I hear from all of you and actually it affects us, all of us right now is networking. We all network with each other over this international law and within the international law section. And that's how we got to know each other, be friends and have a lot of experiences together, including in cross borders. Now, we only have a couple of minutes left. I'd like to ask each of you to briefly, if you can, tell us, you know, what has working across international borders and within the international law section brought to your personal and professional lives, Na? I think the best part is making new friends like, you know, our panel today, you know, I get to know each of them on a deeper level. And also, of course, you know, whenever you come across issues evolving, you can always know you have the support network. Who can share with you their resources as well? So this is fabulous, valuable. That's really cool too, the support network. I like that. I mean, it's not just a network. These are people that care about you and want to help you. You know, Rex, same question. Assured just to quickly give a plug to the section's friendship agreements that we have with the Daiichi Tokyo Bar Association, the Shanghai Bar Association, the Seoul Bar Association, and we also have one with the Sicho Bar Association. These have been just invaluable opportunities to make friends with foreign lawyers and really, really deepen the connection between those countries in Hawaii. And so it's just been a terrific opportunity. You know, that's great. When you talk about these other countries like China, where there may be a lot of political differences, but we know and we have friends in China who are lawyers, who we know personally. That's a great thing. Steve, same question. Yeah. Again, I echo the thoughts, but for example, this past Friday, so the last business day, we had a Paul Hannah here at the firm to welcome a new lawyer. And I walk in and hi, I'm Steve Dyer and she goes, hi, I'll leave the name out. But she goes, I've heard of you because I work with Martha Levin at the law school. So there you go. I saw that coming. Well, we'll let you conclude, Mark. What are your thoughts about what, as working across international borders and with the international law section brought to you? Well, I'm gonna say what it has brought to me, but me and my role as the Pals Director at Richardson Law School. And what it has brought, and I have so much appreciation for the people who are on the screen and for others who have helped make this happen, is not just my networking, but building bridges and connections for my students. For many years, there would be regularly downtown lunch events and the students would hop in a car, share a taxi, find parking. It was all worth a free sandwich, but it was also a chance to meet people in the community who were doing the work that they wanted to be doing. And we know that time moves on. So those students who were hopping in those cars and going downtown, many of them, like one about to go to Steve's office, will soon be working, established, moving their own careers along. And so I think what this section has also done for me in my representative capacity with the law school is benefit just a tremendously valuable, kind and generous group of people to look to Kohai, to look to younger aspiring lawyers and reach a handout to help bring them up. You know, wouldn't it be nice if the world was run like the international law section where we're all friends, we're networking, we help each other out? I mean, we don't always agree, that's fine. But these personal relationships brought about by international law and international law practice and the international law section are really invaluable. So I'd like to thank you all for being guests today. Thank you very much. Enjoyed our talk, it went fast. And aloha to all of you, thank you. Thank you Mark. Thank you Mark. Thank you Mark. Thank you so much for watching Think Tech Hawaii. If you like what we do, please like us and click the subscribe button on YouTube and the follow button on Vimeo. You can also follow us on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and LinkedIn and donate to us at thinktechhawaii.com. Mahalo.