 Welcome to a deep adaptation Q&A with me, Professor Jen Bendell, and my guest today is Jelani Cordelia Prescott. She's a classically trained musician, a certified leader and mentor of the dances of Universal Peace International, and a teacher in the Sufi Rouhani at International, which is a universal Western Sufi order. You may have seen her because she runs the or offers or hosts the weekly Songs of One Breath, which is a song and prayer and meditation offering every Friday, which she does for the in service of the deep adaptation community and other people who are interested. So Jelani, thank you very much for joining us today for this Q&A. Thank you for having me, Jen. Yeah, it's wonderful to, it's wonderful to for this to happen because obviously we had to delay it due to ill health some months ago, which I think we might come back to, but yeah, I really enjoy what you do and I really enjoyed your Sufi session yesterday. I find it very nourishing. So yeah, it's wonderful to host you today. So I was wondering because I didn't know anything about Sufism or the dances of Universal Peace at all for a couple until a couple of years ago. So I was thinking maybe just to sort of provide some context for people who don't know. What, what does it mean to be doing what you do in the Sufi Rouhani order and what is what are the dances of Universal Peace, just so that people get some of that context. Potted history or a quick overview. Sufism is sometimes called the path of spiritual freedom. So it's a mystical path. And specifically the, the Sufi Rouhani international draws its lineage via Hasratinay Khan, who was an Indian mystic who came to Europe and to America in 1910 and bringing this message of unity and diversity, that the the truth at the heart of every religion is the same truth. So that was his message, which he brought. And one of his students was known as Samuel Lewis, later Merced Sam. And much, much later in his life, he was a young man when he met in Iqan in California. And in the 1960s, after a lifetime of study and work and practice, he developed this work of the dances of Universal Peace, he was working with the hippies in San Francisco in the 60s. And he brought through this, this technique or this practice of moving, chanting, praying, using sacred phrases with music and movement. So it's a fully embodied spiritual practice drawing on sacred phrases from the world's traditions. And that, you know, from, from small beginnings with a small group of students practicing actually in the, in the garage under his house. It's now spread to a worldwide movement with teachers in, I think, 40 countries around the world. Very thriving and a huge body of work of beautiful dances, melodies, chants. So this practice evolved initially as part of his, you know, he was a Sufi teacher. So that's what, how he envisaged this work. The dances have become independent in their own right. So now you don't have to be a Sufi to be a dancer of Universal Peace or to even to teach those dances. But they're still very central practices in our Sufi Rehanyat International. So that's still the focus of how we, it's one branch of how we practice. Because I maybe like many people, when, when you hear the word Sufi, you might know nothing or you might think of whirling dervishes and but the dances of Universal Peace. Could you give or say something about what, what they are in terms of notions of embodied prayer and song and, and why, why do that? Why do that? So, I mean, historically, a lot of, a lot of spiritual practice involves sitting silently, quietly, alone. And that's a very important part of practice, quietening the mind, making one's individual connection with the divine or whatever one might be thinking of doing in that context. So the difference with the dances of Universal Peace is that it's a communal practice, it's shared. So we're, you know, holding hands in a circle, moving together. There's something very heart-opening about the practice, very, very deeply connecting. People feel deeply connected to each other. Sometimes the dances are in pairs, in partners, meeting a sequence of partners, one after another. So we have this opportunity to share spiritual practice with, with a series of people, one to one, face to face, through eyes, through heart, through hands. And so the mantras that we're singing have their own power, of course, and, and that's the context. That's the framework of what makes this happen. But in this way with, with involving all of the body, involving music, involving movement, involving contact with other people, it makes it a very, very particular kind of practice, very unusual and very rare and very precious. You're muted, Jen. Thank you. I want to come back to that because what's happened in, in 2020 and now with, with so much going online. But, but first, do you have adaptation? So, which is premised on varying levels of anticipation of disruption and collapse or the experience of disruption in one's life due to environmental change, particularly climate change, and a desire to work with others in a spirit of curiosity, compassion, respect, basically not to just run for the hills or start digging a bunker, but do something collectively. How did you come to discover DA? And why did it seem to land with you like as something to engage in? When was this? Where were you at? What's been your journey with DA? Well, I mean, I want to say it just started with you, Jen, because if you remember, we met at, we were on a weekend course together. And I'm just remember having really wonderful and inspiring and exciting conversations with you. But this is a theme that's been very alive with me for really all my life. I've been aware of environmental crisis and feeling a sense of deep frustration that not, that things were not being done, that needed to be done to turn this around. So when XR was launched, I felt a huge sense of excitement at last, something, you know, a big scale thing happening that I could get behind. So I did join up with them and went to London for the first big demonstration at Easter, which I think was two years ago. Is that right? I've lost the plot a bit with the timeline here. But in the meantime, I had met you and read your paper and also went through my own, I suppose, a kind of revisiting but also a deep internal personal crisis with what this meant. You know, a deep sense of, you know, a whole rollercoaster of emotions of fear and grief and really sort of facing the situation. So whilst part of me was wanting desperately to act and to demonstrate and to make people listen. Another part of me was also very much just coming to terms with it in my own personal sense. So then of course I mean, shall I just go on? Yeah, so what I'm interested in is the resonance, if any, with your background, your belief system and the work you do. And the reason I ask is, because it was incredible, I remember when you reached out to me and the senior facilitator in the Deep Adaptation Forum, Katie Carr, to suggest maybe we considered doing something at a DUP summer camp, dancers of Universal Peace Camp and we thought, oh, maybe. And then we show up and the whole camp, the whole of the camp is framed as a deep adaptation experience, exploring what this means. And so yeah, how you got to that point, the sense of the resonance being that strong for you in both ways. How is DA, why is DA relevant to your existing community and work and how is your existing work relevant to DA? So I was aware that the community, the dance community in this country, in the UK, would be very open to deep adaptation ideas. I knew that the camps that have been running for 30 odd years now have been very much rooted in connection with the earth, with environmental sustainability and people's love for the earth, for nature, for being in touch with that and for taking care of it. And so it seemed like, well, I felt clear that it would be fertile ground, you know, it would be a fertile meeting between the camp and deep adaptation. As far as how it could go the other way round, my own personal experience of the grief and fear and sense of loss that I was going through having read your paper really led me to deeply dig deeply into my resources to find support in that. And so all of my training, my practice, which has been so much about being able to reach into a larger context for everything in which to experience life, loss, death, suffering and have some reference points, some comfort, but a context in which to understand it and to hold it all. And so that was, you know, I found that those resources were there. And if that was so for me, then maybe I could be part of helping to share that as well. And, and which you have been doing that synergy seemed, I seem to remember when we talked about it at the camp. You were saying that you felt the time had come for all the inner resilient resilience. Through the spiritual practices and philosophies to, to enable people to move into the world more at this time of emergency and disruption to try and, and yeah, to try and populate the movement with some of that ethos and some of that groundedness. I have some recollection of that. And then of course, through conversations I invited you to see where how you could bring some of what you do and offer explicit specifically to the deep adaptation forum membership with songs of one breath. Could you tell us why you do that and what, what you mean by songs of one breath. So I have to give you credit for the title gem, because we were talking about this. I had a sense. I mean, I think this is arose really as part of the COVID crisis. Maybe we need to spend some time talking about that as well. So it was becoming possible to, for people to access this kind of work via zoom from all over the world. And it felt like a good time to offer extra support. People, many people were isolated alone at home and so offer a place of connection. And very specifically, I mean, the breath, the breath is, is fundamental to so many spiritual traditions. I would venture to say it's fundamental to all of this understanding. And so this, I had this strong sense that although we were each isolated in our own homes, that we were still sharing the same breath. And so that by drawing attention to that, that as we sing together as we breathe together, we could really start to increasingly experience that this, this sharing of the breath and that even our isolation is at some level illusion because we are not separated. Because at the very most basic level, the breath that we're breathing my out breath becomes your in breath. And your in your out breath becomes my in breath, this sharing in a very real sense, you know, there's no barrier around the entire globe to the movement of breath, wind, air, which is all the same thing. Thank you. And I have certainly, and it's just happened to me right now, just hearing you chat about that. I brought my attention to my breathing. Therefore, I brought my attention a bit out of my head and into my body. I noticed I've got this sort of I'm on stage. I must do my job. How is this going type heady energy. And I just check back in with my body and the sense of kindness towards myself and what we're doing here. So there is that process isn't there just, no, just breathing noticing. And then the added thing she was saying which is then remembering that this, this is, as you say, one, one, one atmosphere that we share. How does that work online. Because of some people. Some people are saying that that that's that, you know, wow, if I didn't have zoom and all this, you know, it'd be much things would be difficult but but it's still not the same as being in a room together. What do you think what has been your experience of doing this, particularly with this idea then that we're already always completely connected to all times anyway. So I've been really taken by surprise in fact with what is possible on zoom. I think I embarked on this feeling it as a poor substitute, you know, a way to keep contact a way to keep connection but but a poor substitute for gathering and meeting together in person. But what I've experienced is that increasingly and I don't think I'm alone in experiencing this I think people who've been meeting in the in the groups with me have have also shared that this has been their experience. So increasingly I'm aware of myself in the fullness of my being so aware of my breath aware of my energy field whatever that is but this this physical body is like the most dense manifestation of who I am. And there's that has a physical limit but my gelatinous is not limited to the extent of my physical body and first of all by following the breath and then increasingly by experiencing my sensitivity my sensitivity to and and the meeting between my sensitivity and that of others that there's a sense that we can really feel each other in some very real way. So the screen is just a screen okay but it's a cue it's a reminder it's a it's a help point to it's a trigger for for those for those experiences which are actually very physical experiences and beyond physical. So I've become much much more aware of the very real interconnectedness in separability of our natures and that has actually led me to a deepening experience of my interconnectedness with all that is with with with all of the planet. Yeah, I am. I had this chatting with you the other day where I just realized that if I just stopped imagining that all I'm doing is hearing a reproduction of your voice and a reproduction of your image. And actually if I almost look away from the screen and just notice again, sitting here in this chair in this room. Right here right now I'm having that experience of gelatinous with me here, 8000 miles away from you. And, and you're having an experience of gymnast in where you are. It's it's. And then of course from a different cosmology epistemology ontology all those fancy words to to the one that we're invited to to to live within by modern society, then that non separability is like yeah of course, and so we're all in communion with all of each other all the time on some level. And of course then that that's again that's ancient wisdom isn't it prior to zoom we had prayer. It's all just, it's all just agree to pray at the same time tomorrow, offline, and there's that sense of universal togetherness in that way. So yeah it's been interesting technological reminder of an ancient wisdom. And yeah, so I want to ask you. It's okay not to talk about this and I didn't tell you I would but I know that there's another way that that reality can inform interaction. So for example, remote healing becomes like an obvious idea from that alternative world view. And I believe you had some of that so this this this zoom was, we canceled it a few months ago because you've got COVID, and you were very unwell, and you're having some post COVID symptoms. Can you tell us what happened. To be strictly accurate the COVID was actually before that the healing happened because of an operation that I had, which seemed to retrigger some of that fatigue. But yes I was really struggling to to heal and to get back from that place. And actually Katie Carr suggested she'd been, she'd come across this healer in Bali and she said she could put and put him in touch with me. And I was at the stage of thinking, well, you know, I'll try and try anything. So I had this wonderful experience of WhatsApp communications just little text messages with this healer. It was such a time and a place and I would lie down on my bed for an hour and he would send me healing. And yes, it was, you know, it's something that I suppose I've had quite a long journey with with healing so it wasn't a huge stretch for me to accept that this could work. But it was certainly the longest distance healing that I'd ever experienced as you say 8000 miles. And, you know, it was extraordinary. I think probably partly because of this experience with zoom I was more ready to to really tune into that sense of our energy fields meeting and to be aware of what he was doing and how he was touching me with this healing force. And yeah, I found it very profoundly helpful and had quite a number of sessions with him and and ended up recovering completely. Yeah. And that's, I understand of course that there may be other factors and some people will be thinking oh but you know could be just coincidence but I seem to be hearing quite quite a lot of stories very similar. And so it's fascinating to me. And if that is the case, then that invites us to think quite radically differently about how change may or may not happen. And how we may or may not wish to show up in the world moment by moment day by day on something like the environmental predicament. And it does bring us to this idea then that there could be some kind of spiritual activism. I was wondering if do any of the ideas work for you notions of how. This notion of spiritual activism or other forms of healing each other and our relationship to the natural world through things which might be labeled mystic approaches. So I think one thing that feels really important is is that I've learned is this embodied sense of the impact that I as an individual can have. And that can be at a very sort of fundamental level to do. We're educated to believe ourselves to be so individual and so separate. And so it's hard for people even to appreciate with our individual impact on the climate for example. You know it's hard to see for many people to understand that. Obviously some people have thought about it a lot. So to be able to move not only to from experiencing the impact that I might personally be responsible for in a negative sense in the world to also the impact that I could be responsible for having in a positive sense. And I think maybe this is what you mean by by spiritual activism. And I certainly think that you know again it's something that we've done over zoom around the around the world is a sense of holding the earth in in loving healing and a sense of really really grasping at a deep body level that I am not separate from the earth. This is not about me sending healing to something else. It's like each one of us we are all part of this and we're not separate from each other. We're not separate from the earth. But there's no way that we can actually you know take ourselves out of this this interconnected system. And so to one of the wonderful things about doing that as you mentioned prayer but there's a very visual sense when we do it on zoom. For me it makes it much easier to experience this because I might be aware that I've got somebody on the screen in Bali somebody in California somebody in Hawaii somebody in Britain you know and there we are literally in circling the globe. And if our you know if our usness is is connecting in that way that we described my gelatinous meeting gems and gemness all around the world. We are literally holding and bathing the earth in this in this circle of our energy field and therefore what we put into that energy field is is bathing that whole globe. So if we're doing that with a sense of greater unity greater inner peace greater loving healing intention you know it's going to be felt at some level. Yes and in my case, I feel it in a sense of restoring a feeling of rightness, despite everything like it's, it's right to be awake to the troubles. It's white right to be doing stuff candidly in response to those troubles, even if it causes, you know, difficulties and stresses. There's a deeper rightness even no matter what's happening and yeah I find I find that from the coming back to the these these bigger questions of what is reality who am I why are we here all that and then and also rather than just the heady stuff than the actual experiential sense of shared beingness usness. How do we avoid spiritual bypass in in this that people will just sort of reach for this in their stressy panic at the way the world is and therefore just do a little bit of recycling and spend the rest of their time hanging out in Sufi circles online. I think oh it's all good. Yeah. I think the breath is the key because if we follow the journey of the breath if we really are committed to to experiencing this shared breath to really opening and deepening our awareness of what that means. So that, you know, more and more day by day I can really be connected with people all around the globe with plants and animals all around the globe through my breath aware that this is shared that this is this experience that we are going through at the moment is something that we are all in together and then when I follow the breath in because every breath has to come in as well as out and so when that lands in me. What do I find in there in response to what I'm learning and experiencing and when I really go deep with that when I let the breath take me into contact with my feelings. When I let it let me let down some of the guards some of the you know you were describing this earlier in the call gem that sort of sense of you know it can be a bit of rigidity a bit of mental patterns a bit of holding on keeping going coping a sort of there's a there's a line here but below which we don't go and then when I let the breath take me below that line and I feel feel into what's actually going on inside me I can touch the fear the grief. I can touch all of it I can feel everything more deeply I can feel the deep joy of loving connection that the intense experience of being in nature. And so I've lost my thread a bit here Jim you might have to help me where we were going. I what I'm hearing is that I'm the the practices that you have so for example the returning to the breath. Tuning into your emotions and what's happening sensations in the body. This can help you stay present to the full difficulty. Because you're becoming okay with all those difficult emotions. So you're not running away from it with the habits of the brain the busyness or the secondary concerns. And therefore why were you telling me that about in response to spiritual bypass. It's that this doesn't need to be about escape and feeling good. This can actually be about the capability to stay with what's bad and what feels bad. And then it's about also being able to find the nourishment you know often what feels bad. Why is it so difficult to deal with. Maybe there's a sense that an ideal human possibly could be perfectly okay with living with dying with suffering without being troubled by that. That's not my experience it's not the experience of most of us we are troubled by these things. So what's that about and the exploration of that and finding ever more understanding of the hungry places inside the hungry ghosts. And what are our fears of scarcity and loss and lack and longing to be loved and longing to be seen and all of these things. And when the more that we can deepen into all of that and find a context for all of that and find the nourishment for that. Which mainly comes through deep loving connection either with other human beings or with the earth or with the divine. In my feeling there's actually no difference between these things we can access them all whichever entry point we take. And so building that sense of a strong container for all of our experience then enables us to be more fully present more with these things these difficulties. And able then to act when the time is to act as well because for me it's not about an either or it's like it's a both and sometimes it's the right time to be going within. To be it's always the right time to be with the breath but sometimes it's the right time to be sitting on the cushion alone in silence. Sometimes it's the time to be reaching out connecting with others and sometimes it's the time to be out on the streets demonstrating and making ourselves heard. Even without permission. Yeah. Who gives the right the right the right to protest is not meant to be a privilege to protest but there we go strange times we live in. So, I just want to say to everyone, please do consider if you have a question for Jelani to send it to Matthew, you'll find him as questions here please send him and then then you can. He'll help bring bring you to talk. We're in a moment going to go to Madhu with a question and but before then, just to give you some notice Madhu. One more question Jelani. I reread your blog that you wrote back in May last year about restoring ancient wisdom in the context of anticipation of disruption and collapse. And, and you covered some of these topics, but one thing you said was restoring the wisdom of the wisdom that's found within religions doesn't mean turning to religious structures and institutions. I don't know if you've given this much thought but the, you know, 7 million people on the planet in a really tight squeeze, things are going to get really difficult and obviously religions are the things that many people turn to or think that other people are turning to when people feel vulnerable or feel mortality or grief. It's highly likely that religion will be looked to by many people. But how do we how do we encourage right relationship with religion between religion. Yeah, what can we do if anything about about how how those religious institutions respond to these these these times. And that's a question to everyone on this call by the way because it's pretty damn tough. It's a huge question, Jim. It's a huge one. On one level, I think that all I can do is share my truth, be my truth, encourage the people that I meet to be their truth. I mean, the reality is that many of us have been scarred by religion. If we weren't ourselves personally, then our parents may have been and they may have thrown it out so we were brought up without any religion. So, you know, the structures, the often deeply patriarchal structures of organized religion have been responsible for some of the the most heinous crimes around the world and have had the result in in our day of alienating very many people. They still also are responsible for perpetuating senses of otherness and right and wrong. And, you know, say that I hear myself say that I think, well, of course, it's about right and wrong, isn't it? And the way where I'm going with this at the moment is that it's never as simple as as right and wrong. It's all about love and not yet love. Exactly. There we go. Yes. If we just to call on the the Aramaic words of Jesus, if you look at his original language where he spoke, he didn't have the word for sin. He had a word which meant unripe. So, yeah, the whole of Christianity based on unripe or ripe action. Yes, it was just an invitation for us all to get a little bit more fruity. So I think that the, you know, for me, what's what's been fundamental to to who I am is this individual personal mystical experience, which I feel is what was there at the beginning of every religion. I think every visionary mystic and prophet had this sense of an individual connection with the divine had a personal message that they wanted to share about that, which has enormous strength and beauty and gifts for all people. And along the way, these messages get bound up in in structures that are about organization and personality and power and and the message can get lost in that. And for me, what has been the beauty of the universal Western Sufism of Hazar Sinaik Khan, the pointing to really going back to the truth that was what was the seed for each of these religions. And it's and it's the same wherever you look, as you say, it's about love. It's about breath. It's about unity. It's those messages are there wherever you look. So in one sense, if you find yourself in a religious structure that you're happy to be in, then then wonderful. Just keep looking for the love and the breath and the connection and the unity through that. And just be a little bit careful with any stories about my unity is better than your unity. So, all right, so we're going to go to, by the way, everyone, please send questions to Matthew. Madhu, if your question, please unmute yourself. Also maybe lean into the camera a bit so we could we'll be able to see you a bit better than I can see you at the moment. Yeah, hello. Yes. Really, this question comes with a lot of inner struggle over many years. Can you hear me? Yeah. Can you hear me? Yes. Okay, wonderful. It's it's about, you know, our own inner work. And you've been talking about the breath. It's very personal work. And I'm just thinking also what about, you know, there are many, many people in the world, maybe increasing now who do do this inner work. But there are so many people. There's a huge proportion on the earth who don't connect deeply with their breath and live in an awareness and materialism. We all have that to a certain level. There are many who have an extreme level of that. Then you've got all the food, water, climate, chemicals, allopathic medicine, poverty, inequity of the rich and poor. And sometimes I feel very hopeless. There is inner work going on, but then there's the struggle of life as well, you know, making a living whatever else. People are all contending with the strictures on life, all the rules and whatever. And sometimes you feel very alone and it just feels, but then I look on the internet sometimes and there seem to be many, many brave souls doing a lot of work and bringing out everything to, you know, the society. There's like nothing ever happens very much. And I'm just wondering what is there anything or do we just carry on like this? Is there anything that, you know, all these people who are doing incredible work and get together, it seems to me that it can only happen through internet or do we just carry on just doing our personal work, you know, what. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Absolutely. That the scale and the scale of the challenge and things have trends going in the wrong direction in many ways and yet lots of people doing lots of good things, but it doesn't, it seems to be swimming against a tide. So what do we do about it? If anything, where does, yeah, how do you respond to that? Is that the way you see things to Lani and how and how do you respond to it if you do see things that way? It's a really hard question, isn't it? And it's easy to feel quite depressed about that. I think this is where it perhaps does come back to the personal, a sort of sense of acceptance as well, a sense that even if I'm not able to affect or change anybody or anything in the world, this is still the best way for me to develop a sense of equanimity, to develop my inner peace that is not dependent on external circumstances. And I think there's an inherent paradox in here that it's important that we strive, that we have this passion for the goal of, you know, of creating the best world we possibly can, but also having an equanimity with whatever the outcome is. As I say, one of these teachings which we find in so many traditions is that, and this is, you know, we talked about ancient wisdom, that was the title of my blog, and I think going back since the dawn of time the nature of being a human has been to be in struggle, in struggle with scarcity of food and resources often, with sickness, with death, and general challenges of just being alive. You know, we might translate those into slightly different formats in our modern day, you know, with modern medicine and, you know, different, there are different challenges now, but they're still just as many challenges and just as challenging as they've always been. And so the same wisdoms apply that, yes, we work to make the best world we can, we work to make friends with our breath so that I can be connected with how I'm being affected by what's happening around me, so that I can feel that. And, you know, by being the most grounded, centered, authentic, feeling and peaceful as I can be, then I bring that with me where I go. I mean, I really know, I really see the difference when I manage that and when I don't manage that. And so that seems to me to be the work and the way forwards is that we are, each one of us doing what we can and sharing it. Yeah, yeah, it's thank you for the reminder of that it's important work to be who we are, to come from a place of love and forgiveness, including if it doesn't add up to what we would wish it to add up to. Yeah, so thanks for that Katie, I guess Katie Carr question. Thank you. Yeah. I've read a lot in the last very, very difficult 12 months about the ways in which spiritual communities and members of spiritual communities have been particularly swayed by or susceptible to conspiracy theories about world events and I'm wondering what your observations on this are. And also what might be the responsibilities of spiritual or faith community leaders in this regard. It's been deeply concerning actually to see those trends and to see how in many of the communities that that I'm in touch with, you know, people who have always identified themselves as kind of earth loving hippies have sort of been. Yeah, I've managed to fall down these conspiracy rabbit holes as far as I can see it. And I feel personally I have a huge responsibility to hold a sense of grounded sensibleness. There's, I'm not sure if this is apocryphal, but I've been told that has written I can once said avoid all nonsense. And it seems like really good advice to me. But how do we know what is nonsense? I mean, I feel a personal sense that need to do my research to think sensibly about things and to check it out in my body in terms of does this land as seeming like wise, sensible advice? Or, or not. So, yeah, I mean, you know, I don't know how we how we avoid it happening. But I think that there's been some very interesting papers out recently around the vulnerability of people who are attracted to certain spiritual groups. And then therefore, in my sense, the huge responsibility that leaders and teachers have to be aware of of those vulnerabilities, particularly trauma and the effect that that can have on on people's Yeah, need to to feel a strong teacher or strong holding parental stipe type presence and then their vulnerability to being led in ways which are not always helpful. So I think it's a huge, a huge responsibility that we all need to be aware of. Not sure that's a very helpful answer. But did it do you feel like it answered your question, Katie, is that any more you'd like to say about that? Yeah, it did. There's only one other part of it for me, which is it has really brought my awareness to the fact that my experience of the society that I've been brought up as part of is very, very, it's easy to feel very lonely. You know, the absence of that sense of belonging and holding and trust, compared to societies that I am close enough to be able to feel that outside of Europe. And that that seems to me an antidote to the kind of desperate panic we need to know something that feels certain that feels safe. Yeah, so that's been an important part of it for me. I missed all that because my internet dropped out, but I look forward to seeing the recording on on YouTube to hear what you were sharing. But yeah, it's definitely in my world too. It's actually for me the same effect the same process happening in those people who decide not to think and just do what they're told by a chief medical officer and a politician and mainstream or corporate media. And those people who who decide to reject everything and just go with whatever seems most fascinating and exciting and sort of almost like the, the way to just dismiss everything it's like a desire for simplicity and not wanting to stay with complexity. So, on one hand, you, you, you end up agreeing with really strange and decisions by governments, which then they contradict themselves later anyway, do it something else, or you go and end up believing the Bill Gates wants to inject your children with nanobots. It's like, it is maybe the same processes that are happening by both ends both extremes. I want to say some Katie actually. Thank you for the question everyone Katie works with a deep adaptation forum I don't anymore. I left in September and I left the board over a month ago, but they they're doing amazing work that also to learn is in support of with with those weekly activities. So, I'll put a link into the YouTube notes for a fundraising drive that the deep adaptation forum is doing basically they need about 100 or more new donors of of any amount of giving by the end of March in order to unlock quite a nice match from a from a private donor so I'll put in a link for that also you can just always at any time go to deep adaptation info and read blogs find out what's happening. Even decide to contribute to blog because they're also wanting to pluralize the voices and the experiences with DA around the world. Final question because we're going to go a few minutes over because we started a few minutes late. It needs to be a quick question because we've got to hear the answer and everything within less than five minutes. Thanks. I do learning. Hi, what are the qualities that have developed in you as a result of your spiritual practice that have helped you to be with the enormity and pain of the current crisis and help you to be with it and not turn away. That's a nice wrap up question isn't it basically the essence almost like a essential oil of everything we've been talking about. So, I would like to say, I'm very much a work in progress. But I think what has developed in me increasingly is the image I get is of a mountain, a sense of stability, groundedness, rootedness, able to, and, you know, sometimes this is an aspiration more than a reality. Sometimes it's available to me and an ability to allow the weather to move around me and still to maintain my grounded rootedness in the earth, my sense of my own safety and stability independent of what else is happening. And also, yeah, I mean, the ultimate, you know, if we follow this investigation of unity, non separability, then that also extends forwards and backwards in time. So then this lifetime starts to feel less all encompassing and more of a part of a whole. And so sometimes I'm also able to look ahead and feel myself feel my bones being absorbed back into the earth at the end of my life and and feel that that's okay. That there's a, you know, there's a sense of my first breath and my last breath where I came from where I'm going to and somehow all of that contained in, in all that is, and that brings a sense of peace. Thank you. So, we're ending with not ending here, but this sort of momentary eternal experience we're having comes to an end. All right. Sorry for those of you who send questions to Matthew. Basically, no one really sent any questions to the last 15 minutes. So I had to just keep asking questions of July so we run out of time. But you can see Jelani, I guess next Friday to 30pm UK time. If you want to know about that then the best way is on the Facebook group but Jelani is there another link that you could mention for people to easily find songs of one breath or your other work. So, I should have thought about this. I mean, there's a Facebook page which is Jelani and Salik and these events are on there as well as the as well as deep adaptation Facebook group. Okay, I'll put that in the, I'll put that in the notes as well on the YouTube. So my, it's my YouTube channel just look for Jim Bendel in YouTube and then you'll find it and then you'll find this video. And in the show notes, not really a show is it in the video notes, all these links. Thank you everyone and thank you Jelani. Thank you, Jim. May all beings be well. May all beings be happy. Peace, peace. Peace, peace.