 Hello everyone. Good afternoon and welcome to the Cooper Hewitt. I'm so happy to have all of you here in Andrew Carnegie's modest home, now home to America's Design Museum. I am Rukhi Nuhal Ravikumar. I'm the Director of Education here. I'm so very pleased to have all of you here. We talk a lot about collecting internally in our conversations, but very rarely have we actually had a conversation of this nature. So I'm so very pleased that Daniella had this great idea of having this conversation here today. I will briefly introduce Daniella because she is really the brain behind today's event. She's a design historian and educator, writer, curator, and really a master influencer. So they're so very happy that you had this great idea to bring David Gill here and to talk to us about collecting and taste. And with that I will hand it off to you. Thank you Rukhi and thanks for all being here. I know it's three o'clock but we still have a very nice group of people and I want to make an introduction and after that we're going to sit here for a talk and we're going to conclude with Q&A. So are you ready? David Gill is one of the most influential taste makers in the global world of collectible contemporary design. He has been instrumental in the formulating that market and in establishing the movement which promotes the notion that design is beyond its functionality. The design equals to art. But David's London Gallery is much more than a magical temple of design or a jewel box showcasing dazzling objects of the ultimate refinement. It is also more than a hub of the avant-garde. David Gill Gallery is where we learn about the intellect of design. We learn that handicraft has moved to the 21st century as a tool in the service of concepts. We witness the highest level of ambition and imagination that design today can achieve. We learn that there is such a thing as the most current expressions of design and that understanding it is a result in an eternal quest. Inside David Gill Gallery we realize that we should be open about our taste and perceptions that we should consider the complexity when observing objects because it is rewarding to understand the unexpected and the exceptional. It is actually the only way to shape a truly impeccable taste. We learn the design from sense, the definitions and roles we often tend to attain it. That quality has layers and layers of measurement and the design is as deep as the ocean as high as the sky in the words of Irving Billim. Because at David Gill Gallery we see the Zeitgeist, the spirit of our age and we can identify the essence of the contemporary. This event, so here I have a couple of images, this event comes to celebrate a new book, Designing Art. It tells David's story from the childhood in Zaragoza, I hope, do I pronounce it right? The capital of Argonne in northeastern Spain. It follows his life journey from the banks of the Ebor River to the forefront of the world stage. The interest in fashion and in style was born there at the small dressmaker shop at the local cinema. This book is about a passion for taste and about a path of developing the vision and eye that take to recognize the great. Every step in this extraordinary journey has been groundbreaking. When the entire world went minimalism and sleek, he went near romantic, tribal, and baroque. When the entire world forgot about the interwar talents of Jean-Michel Franck and Jean Cocteau, he highlighted their achievements in his gallery. When the entire world bought furniture in stores, David began producing objects in limited edition, elevating furniture to the place of works of art. I'm calling what you present at your gallery privilege design. Privileged because of the guidance and advice that and mentoring and support that all of you artists are privileged to receive. Sebastian Erasores says that David's guidance has put him on the road to the truth. We talk high bar art, design, and aesthetics. He told me, but working with David makes you much more vulnerable to seeing the truth in all of your surroundings. To Mattia, he has been that companion whom every artist dreams to have, that special soul with whom he has gone hand in hand throughout the journey of his magnificent career. Always fun and never afraid to turn fantasies into reality. He told me. To Michelle O'Connor, David embodies the elastic vision, elastic, meaning stretching limits. And to Fredrickson Stollard, David Gill has not only been a true supportive galleries, but also a true friend, a family, someone who encourages, advises, but never dictates or demands. So David, please. David Gill. So good afternoon. Almost evening. Is this working? When did you arrive from London? I arrived yesterday and no jet lag, which is I was resting a little bit. So I think I'm feeling OK. So thanks for being here. I want to ask you, you are you have been a leading taste maker. What is taste to you? Why is it important to have a good taste? That is a very sort of like difficult, awkward question to answer, because taste is something very personal. I think it's very much a lifestyle taste, which obviously you either have it as an attitude or you kind of warm, you grow into it or you educate yourself what taste is. In my view, we have more than ever before knowledge and information of what is happening culturally, in art, architecture, fashion and well trends to make individual choices that shape our DNA to live as we choose, the way we dress, our surroundings, our way of life. It all becomes our style. Through education, we move forward to live and learn and makes us part of shaping the future and knowledge and excitement in our lives. I think taste is a very personal thing. Many times it's been identified in particular cases with specific interiors, like the Rockefeller. There's an incredible interior that was done at a particular time that is iconic. So taste is there in history and in the making today. The design that you show at the gallery, and I have a couple of examples here, is always sensuous and provocative. It is a type of design that really has the power to make spaces. And I want to ask you, what is the advantage for people to live with design like that? I think the fundamental thing is always about the space. I think the space dictates and obviously the mood that you want with that space, what is going to happen next. I think once you kind of assess that, the architecture, the space, the volume and the mood that you want to, then of course it's the piece that will go into it that will give it that personality or identity. With my pieces, I've always chosen them as individuals. They're all like artworks or whether they are functional or not. And they create this environment which is very personal and can be obviously a part of anybody's choice and create that individuality by having these pieces. You know, it makes me think about something that our mutual friend Brian McCarty told me a while ago, that when he loves living with interesting things because it makes his life interesting and he can, it's never boring, he can always go back and look at it in the morning or at night or in the weekend. I have a case where Mary was Lawrence. I'm sure she wouldn't mind me mentioning her. She lives in New York and all over the world. But recently she actually bought one of these sculptural bear from Barnaby Bedford and every time that she walks into her apartment, he makes her smile, all her friends, they treat her like a pet. And they also sort of say, what a beautiful, amazing bear. So it's like, it also brings happiness. Yeah. Okay, here I have another. You are known to keep your life very private. And now in this book, not only do you tell your own story, but also you open your home. Why now? I think it has been a journey of creativity where I had no time to think or whether I should be reading a book or not. I think it was much more about the work that I was creating with the artists, the exhibitions, the excitement, the fabrication, all the process that goes into that. So I never really thought a book was even in the picture. But of course, over 30 years doing this work, journey, I thought it was time and I've been encouraged also by people that work with that to really show that I was perhaps the pioneer in doing limited editions and working with artists in this way. And it was a good moment to do this publication and obviously I brought in together the artists that I work with, which are really so important in the work that I have done. And you're going to have a book signing at the Salon Art and Design this weekend, but what did you have? Did you have some events in London? In London, we had a book signing, which was very, in a sense, I thought it was something, I think, very much low key. I mean, I didn't really want to make a big thing of it. It was really, for me, it was like a family affair. It was kind of about collectors, people that I really knew, people that they're, I don't know, fans of the gallery, but not in any way thinking that it should be anything bigger than that. I was very much looking forward to this book and I've read it and I really, I really loved it. I learned a lot. Thank you. I want to ask you about contemporary design. So you pioneered, really, this is the field that you pioneered. You started producing objects in limited edition. I think when I started, which was back in the late 80s, I kind of, I opened in London and I knew that my background was Christy's, that I really had to do this show, although my own interests were, you know, from very diverse. I thought that I had to really make a mark by sharing what I knew. And I opened with the masters because I thought it was the way the English, because at the time it was all very conservative in terms of surroundings, furniture, interiors, that the way to put whatever my message across, I had to really show the masters. And the masters really of contemporary furniture at the time, 20th century, the French masters. So it really showed from Ruhlmann, Jean-Michel Franck, Eileen Gray. I put an exhibition of, you know, Giacometti, Alberto Giacometti. And I had not to, went to my surprise in a way, the collectors like Jacob Rothschild kind of making an appointment and wanted to come to see me. So I think I started thoughtfully thinking that that was kind of the way to start. But very soon after I realized that also finding these great treasures, which were very historical, it was actually not an easy way and super expensive too. So I really thought that there was nothing like working with contemporary and I had looked at painters for many years and I sort of thought I wasn't at the time of Picasso and Matisse or many other painters that I was interested in. So I really did think that doing contemporary was part of living today and I took that step. And today it's sort of a practice for many galleries to do that, to produce limited edition furniture. And I want to ask you, how do you define your gallery in that landscape? I think I have a very personal point of view in terms of who I show. I mean, not to sort of say that I don't admire some of the artists at other galleries show because sometimes artists are shared just like contemporary art to galleries all over the world. But I think besides that, I have this kind of interaction with the artists where we discuss in detail what the next collection is going to be or the next work. So we actually have a dialogue and I had a particular dialogue with Daniel Libeskin recently because in fact he approached me. He sort of said that he wanted to work with me, which I was really flattered and surprised and humbled. And I thought, well, this is great. Let's see the challenge. And we had a conversation and he asked me different questions like what did I think? What did I want? And we had a challenge. We had a nice challenge and then he went away and he came back with something which was not what we had discussed. I'm sure he wouldn't mind me saying this because it's a topic that we discussed together. So he came up with something very different altogether and then I sort of was taking a back thinking, is this going to happen? But he soon came back and sort of said, I realize, David, this is not what we discussed and came back with the original idea and it was amazing. And this exhibition is still on here? It's just over. It's the last show that we had and this new work that he has done. Amazing, really. I say amazing because, well, it's not that I like everything that we do. I respect it, but I mean when you are surprised just with the technique, with the kind of the way that it's a new language and there's one or two pieces that I think they're really more than ground-breaking. I think they're really truly historical, not just in the materials, but I see that as being piece of the future. And in this direction you work, so now are you exclusively focusing on contemporary design? Well, I also kind of advise on contemporary art, but yes, although we do have some historical pieces as well, we don't really close ourselves to great pieces, however early they might be. So you, as a dealer of contemporary design, your role is very wide. You have to select, you cure it, you select the artist and then you are very involved in the production and promotion and bringing these artists to the forefront to make it collectible or to make the artist collectible. So how is this role different than the role of the traditional war of the galleries? Let's say when you started working the 80s. Well, at the time, of course, contemporary design was not really done in the way that a gallery would take on an artist as a subject and start doing exhibitions or a program creating piece of furniture. It was much more at the time the factory in Italy in the 60s, in the 70s. I mean, it's like the great architects that were producing all this furniture, but not so much artists individually like that. And I kind of got very involved in the sense, from the beginning, I think it was like looking at the drawings and it wasn't, I didn't think of it long-term or short-term. It was simply that I really thought that it was relevant and important to be part of the process and more so in my creativity, because I don't know what I have in my mind if it's a bit of an artist as well as maybe a gallery. I enjoy the process and I really, I had this historical vision when a piece may be made today, but I sort of see what it's going back to. So I am able to make choices and have a dialogue with the artists that will bring these pieces to a different, perhaps, ultimate finish object. And do you find the fabricators, the artisans? Well, sometimes we share them and most of it, we're forever more researching. I mean, we make some pieces with car factories. We really go to the whole industry. I mean, it's like one table that was going to be like a bronze top. We had the top done by weaving wicker and then that wicker, by experts, was actually then cast into bronze. So we actually found weavers to do the wicker top and then that top done by this artist and Mattia and myself, we were there with them directing, because for them it was something traditional and we were making something contemporary. And then it was cast as a bronze piece, put in a contemporary piece of furniture. Amazing. And it's very labor-intensive. It is. Every piece that you show in your gallery is labor-intensive. It's kind of labor-intensive, attention to detail, and I'm very costly. You know, talking about cost, of course. Of course. I mean, when you look at the process, you can understand that it should cost a lot. No, it should. Something that really, you know, when you look at the invoices of Ruhlmann or Jean-Michel Franco or all these great masters today, what was paid at the time by the patrons that really had the money to afford them? I mean, today, hopefully more patrons can afford them and collectors, because I always make sure that pieces really are as affordable as possible. I don't necessarily make a table and I treat it necessarily all this sculpture that it should be priced as a sculpture. I kind of, I work hard to make sure they found the right elements, foundry, so that they find the price on the market that is affordable. But I mean, it's like, at that time, those pieces were super expensive and today really some of the pieces also are super expensive. So, and did you know that the furniture that was made for the court in the 17th and 18th century in France, do you know that they cost more at the time than in any given time afterwards in history? Yes, I'm no surprise when I see the prices that are offered to me for making pieces sometimes. Right. Let me get some other pictures. So, you created a foundation or fund for the Victoria and Albert Museum for acquisition of contemporary design. I wasn't actually creating that. I was part of the process in so far that I think it was actually, I think it was Janne Peel and Francis Sultana and they created a group of friends, they created a fund for the V&A to acquire design because obviously funds are always very necessary in museums and I did ask, and it was created for that purpose and it's true that the fund acquires some of the pieces that I had obviously with my artist for their collection. Nothing to do with my choice, it was their own independent choice that they acquired these pieces for the museum. And how can we define museum quality when it comes to contemporary design? What is museum quality? Well, the thing is this, it really goes down very much to curatorial and who is perhaps behind the board sometimes to make these choices. It doesn't necessarily mean that it's the right or the wrong choice but I think it is ultimately curators that really, or patrons that they really put those pieces in such places. For my part, I have seen some of the pieces that I kind of made with my artists and I think some of them they have that extra merit or historical brilliance in the piece that they will always transcend time and one of them was at the very beginning, not that I haven't done some later, and it was the Ray Kawakuro chest of drawers called by Mattia and Elizabeth. And in fact these pieces is very funny because when I went to them they presented me with a chest of drawers which I didn't really like the drawing. It looked like a tumble dryer so I sort of said and I said to them why don't they design a noble chest of drawers? And Mattia did say to me at the time that would be expensive and I said yeah let's do it. And this piece was done, it was an amazing piece I think was 1984 or 1994 and this piece then the year after it became, it was a publication of cabinet making through the centuries going back to even medieval times and they had taken this chest of drawers as a historical piece in context of history with Salvador Dali furniture with Carlo or Gio Ponti, all the kind of great ones and this piece was there. So at that point it has really gone to that stage of being beyond museum quality, it's also historical quality. And I have two examples here of pieces in the collection of the Cooper Hewitt Museum that came from your gallery. Michelle's here. And this one. And this is Mattia de Saletia. Did you produce? I didn't, this was more or less at the time when I began to work with them and this collection had been done, they had a gallery in France in fact the very first show took place in France in this gallery which doesn't exist anymore called Neo2 and I showed them the year after in London, so we had the year apart so that is the collection just before mine. Your book, I told you that I read your book. I read the entire book and your book has many, many layers. I mean this is the type of book that you can keep reading and reading but one of the aspects that I found very intriguing is how you, through example, you show that you have lived with some of the same pieces, objects, the same piece of furniture, you move them from one home to the next and then you show that these pieces become a part of your identity, sort of your own is embedded within the piece and I wonder, and this is a part of, it's a very important concept in collectible design. It is true, it is true. There are some pieces, not so much because they're nostalgic or because we are very fond of them. I mean they do have some of that and this is what I told you about spaces that you always have to find the right space for them to live with you again. And now things are proving difficult with Albany but before, I mean, there's the Sirimon bookcases which I saw there, blue which I had in my first apartment and I bought them at the sale of, Christie's sale of Sir Edward James who was like a great philanthropist, a great patron, he commissioned all the great artists and supported them, Salvador Dali, the Balerous, he brought them from Paris to London and this bookcase is the one in his apartment in London designed by Sirimon with a Picasso painting, very much in the concept that today I see my life very much like that but in a contemporary way. I mean I will put a contemporary painting next to chest of drawers or the side table. These pieces, they really had that historical sense with me which I carried through and they lived in my bedroom, in my previous apartment, very happily with books and then, and there was some pieces like that, they can travel with you. And how do you convince your clients that, about this particular value of living with great design? Well I think, I think nice, less difficult than at the beginning. At the beginning it was a real education if you like to really when it first started to really, I wouldn't say convince but to really show the path to a collector that had never bought design or contemporary furniture, why should they buy something to, and I have different anecdotes which I quite had different things but but I think what I can say is once they bought the first piece they remained loyal and they came back again and then they sort of say they had discovered something they didn't really know and now they were in terrible way because they couldn't look at anything else. That's good. I want to talk to you about Mattia Bonetti. You discovered him many, many years ago, this is when Mattia worked with Elizabeth Gurus and they both, this was in the 80s, 1980s, and they were the stars, they really changed the face of design. I read about them at the same time as I read about Miguel Barthelot in The Sunday Times. There was a double spread about this Spanish painter called Miguel Barthelot Contemporary Art and he was like messing around in this room full of paint, creating these contemporary paintings, incredible and I can my eyes open, so what is this incredible, amazing. And then sort of like the week later or so on The Sunday Times did this biggest spread about the salon for Lacroix with Mattia and Elizabeth and when I saw these kind of pictures of this amazing fashion salon Lacroix and the furniture yet again it had the same reaction and at that point with my mind thinking I want to kind of move on to contemporary from all the great masters of the 20th century I called them up and I went to see them in Paris. So that is where we began our first venture. And they were very different at the time in the 80s. At the time it was kind of like quite hard because obviously Lacroix it was a fashion salon and of course it was an interior but an interior again linked to fashion and then sort of like mainly the collectors they live with brown furniture to call today but obviously with great antiques and but I did have I mean Charles Hatchie I mean he was a great we all have history but at the time he was in the forefront not only the contemporary art whatever has happened after was not the point I mean he was a great leader and I remember that he actually came when I did this show to the Fulham Road he saw this show called Autumn Leaves my first show he came in and he said I want the whole show but then of course he had his future wife with him having lunch and when they came out of lunch he came back to me and he sort of said sorry she likes 18th century so that was that so that was the time that was the time and when I look at this drawing by Mathieu yes I'm thinking about how he said that you turn every fantasy into reality you see I like challenges I like challenges and of course it is such a bright color that that who is going to live with it in a hurry I mean it's like it's not an easy but but people have Gustave Klimt and Austria the influence is very much obviously Matisse but it's also Austria Gustave Klimt so I'm curious I'm curious and I think it has no point to do what everybody else does I mean it's like so first they all look kind of like one color and I don't know I feel it was a great art object to do what what what is is this is this working what is the secret of Matisse that he keeps being there at the forefront for decades I don't know if he goes in your childhood or your dreams or your fantasy or your imagination but he's able to translate whether it's minimal which is not his best because his mind is much more sculptural but he still can there are so many people doing minimal that it's no more than just a thread of an idea that is just ramifies another idea that is not individual enough but Matisse through his mind I mean he also has some photography he's an sculptor he's able to translate ideas into into this magical world and that is the yoyo that was the yoyo table before which obviously we know the yoyo here is the yoyo yoyo table which is a great kind of fantasy this table but it's the execution of the table that is the important thing I mean it's like it's made in the car factory and very painstaking and furniture you have to look after because everybody sort of says that it's scratches but everything is scratches you have to look after it so I want to tell you that a colleague of mine just a couple of days ago was featured a piece by Alberto Giacometti from the Rockefeller collection in his Instagram are you by the way active on Instagram yourself? the gallery yes I'm not okay but he featured that piece by Alberto Giacometti and somebody asked him who are the Giacometties and the Jean-Michel Franks and the Rockefellers of today so he answered the Alberto Giacometti is Mattia Bonetti I'm no surprised and he said then there are no Rockefellers today so I told this to Mattia and I said do you ever look at Instagram and he said I don't own a cell phone did you know that? yeah he doesn't have a cell phone okay this is another piece by Mattia what is relevant with this design it's also the year when it was drawn it's not so much that we look at it today but you have to go back this is going back to the year 2000 so of course we all know geometry and the cubes and then fashions lead fashion and sometimes an artist brings us an idea and that idea obviously gets spread very quickly so other ramifications come out of that how is collecting different today than when you started? I'm happy to say that there are there's more smiles in collecting people are truly happy to be collecting contemporary today simply because I know they appreciated more they like to live with it and of course seeing more collectors is also my job worthwhile because at the beginning it was like a few collectors that would come in from Austria or from the continent now the collectors are worldwide but I think they're still kind of educated and so far that they really sort of know what they want and as I said before once they find the language that they really like I mean I'm not talking about the great decorators because they know every language but I'm talking about individual collectors well then they follow whether it's the Giacometti or whether it's the Fegus Nistala so whether it's the Campana brothers they follow some of that work which I think is great just like painting you opened your first gallery in 1987 I think it was 87 or 88 yes I think so and at that time it was a small gallery it was a small gallery and I made my insignia the Alberto Giacometti Vaz as my post as my card my invitation card so at the time it was kind of Alberto Giacometti of course it was known to many now it's known to everyone and do you remember like how tell me about a surprise a surprise guest that knocked on your door I'm looking for the an image of this this was the gallery yes this was actually this was like an exhibition of Limvotran it was a big show I mean it was like a few things there yes of course of course of course no I know no no it's true when I opened the Fulham Road I mean it was obviously was the beginning and and and I did this catalogs at the time with Pia Letan in fact he did the drawings and we had this discussion and we sort of said anything that is a painting has to be the photograph anything that's an object I said to him it would be a great idea to draw it because then every time you see in a photograph sometimes you almost possess it possess it and you don't have this wish to really see it if it's a drawing beautiful drawing you have the curiosity to see what the object will look like and that will make people come and see it and of course amongst many people I know one of my collectors had this little catalog at home this is just a story I feel very flattered by this and Jacques Grange for a fact took the catalog and he might have heard about me but he definitely didn't know me and he came to the Fulham Road and rang the bell and he sort of said I'm Jacques Grange and I said yes I've had so much about you so I mean these are the kind of surprises that I had when I opened the Fulham Road I mean it's like when I open now the new space in King Street I mean the first person to open the door not for any particular reason I think it's convenient because he's next door he was François Pinot he was the first person to ring the bell so I wasn't unhappy about that I sort of thought I thought well this this was six years ago and he bought something five years ago no he had he had an apartment in London so I think he needed furniture I wonder I wonder if anybody here has visited David's first gallery only Michael Michael has been amazing I'm not for you to forgive yes yes one of the chapters I mean towards the end of the book I should say both the masters towards the end of oh you know what first I want to ask you about Zaha did how did you meet her? Zaha was a friend in London I mean it's like she was someone through the AA association how we moved to London I mean we were all friends kind of like going out or to I don't know parties or dinners or clubs and we sort of just like knew each other socially and and and years later sort of I came closer to her I mean I had known her for over 20 years and I decided to ask if she would do something with me and she sort of said yes of course and god bless us he's no longer with us but and she kept proposing these ideas that I didn't really like so every time I sort of said no we want a chest of drones we don't want to sink so we won't do it and and no this is tools but we're going to throw them away no one can sit on them so I think that was going on for quite a while but finally I don't know I sort of said to her that I was going to take this show to Venice and it was for Hives who wanted it so the next day she produced the most amazing thing I think the idea of Venice that really appealed to her a lot I think and how many collections how many different exhibitions have you done with Zahar? Zahar I didn't do very many exhibitions because it's a very particular language and I think like everything I do is not that I really want to take over everything it's kind of like within her work there were definite things that I really like and other things that they were not for me she's an architect and I think I got really I wouldn't say the best but I mean in the case of Dejan Suje from the Design Museum when he saw the liquid glacial tables he sort of said that this was the best design Zahar had ever done so it didn't come from my heart or my thinking but I think when when these pieces when I saw them made with kind of the the movement of the way she used the acrylic the transparency of the acrylic I mean they're kind of futuristic is not a word but they're definitely you know peace for the future and what about this the wood pieces that they were produced after she passed? Zahar No no no this is really funny because I really would was something that it was a dialogue but wood is not such a sub wood is something almost like out with her name but I mean I really wanted her to do something and we were working on these pieces whilst she was still with us and in fact they were launched after which by this accident that happened but the pieces were already in production she had actually overseen them and they were shown soon after she passed away unfortunately I want to ask you the last question and then I'm going to open questions to the audience about your homes so this is your this is Oh yes this is MOLTA at least this is like an old mansion in MOLTA that I restored they call it Palazzo but I restored it back to its original kind of veneer if you like and put this contemporary furniture so all the MOLTAs they never seen anything like that and it's a happy home and you also this is also a part of this this is part of MOLTA yes yes yes this is just when you have this this place this is a 17th century building and when you kind of like put all these contemporary pieces in this extraordinary scale of architecture that is why the room dictates everything that is what the space is the most instrumental part of what you do with it I mean I think we've moved again but if you had put a tiny chandelier or a classical chandelier in that hallway or a lantern I think it would have looked very here exactly a contemporary lantern it would have looked I don't know something the period but I wanted something of today living in a set of a time and this happens to be like by Ola Furellison in fact it's a sculpture light and I think the juxtaposition of that time with today I don't know makes me live in in another world and totally unexpected totally a surprise and kind of very much part of today and you how you London home you live in a building that is known as the most powerful building in the world the Albany but what is it definitely in England no this building this building is like it's a Georgian mansion that was that was actually was built by the architect Sir William Chambers in 1771 at the time for the V count of Melbourne so it was a noble home with noble gardens soon after it was passed to the Duke of York it was Prince Frederick and he moved in 1779 and again I mean I think the expense must have been so phenomenal that I were out of fashion that they kept passing it onto the next and the next was Henry Holland who actually took the property in 1801 and then he converted the then gardens into 69 flats which are called sets for the bachelors at the time and the bachelors that happened to be Lord Byron or Gladstone all this very eccentric and this very illustrious if you like architects and artists and designers and I've lived there for a while but the mansion which was obviously the main part of the house which has called this kind of a stately rooms almost the proportions of them is where I moved to just by chance this and and the rooms that I live in at the time there were the the ballroom and the gallery of the house with ceilings like five meters 50 high I don't know in feet what that is but and that is this is your dining room this is not no this is my old dining room I don't think we saw photos the only photo in the old Benny is that one with me and Francis standing in front of that window in the book that is the only one in the book why not because because it wasn't ready he wasn't ready why it's been just you just completed it it's from the next book oh okay for the next book or a story so let's see questions and every question need to be asked using the microphone because of the video that we are taking here so why won't I start with the first question with our guest in the front row wait let's take the oh my god Michael first of all David nobody has actually championed contemporary design in the way that you have you believed in it before anybody was even aware it was the subject worldwide you really did find people develop their tastes develop their possibilities and given careers but you also re-found people that had never really achieved in contemporary times their maximum for instance Lean Votra now you told a little story before of how you discovered Matilla etc through La Croix how did you rediscover somebody who was very well known at the time but then completely lost until you showed you published and you made a market it's true and this is a very funny story because in fact Lean she was at her peak back in the 50s actually 40s during the war in the 40s she was like the queen of Paris she did were for old couture houses she did the most amazing jewelry after the war she created what is called the resin jewelry and she told me that Van Cleef and Apples and all the jewels there were no worn because obviously after the war it was just not possible and it was in places so she created this kind of like jewels like mirror jewelry that women aristocratic wealthy middle class they would wear them as real jewelry that she was kind of creating for them so to come to the story she closed her shop in the I think it was early 60s because she became out of fashion she was not longer selling and then she had these trunks full of all these treasures that she had actually been hoarding for years and she decided to put them for sale at Druor so she created this sale at Druor of I think it was not all her trunks because she was very spartan and careful with her belongings and she put a portion of it and it was a disaster for her she was super angry because pieces were going for 20 pounds 80 pounds and she was screaming and shouting angrily sort of saying do you realize what you are buying when I looked at these pieces myself I saw the craftsmanship the beauty it was a sculptor it was not a jewelry maker it was really a sculptor having kind of done an incredible job and I decided to go and meet her so I sort of went to meet her to her house in Paris and she said I'm not interested so I sort of said no you don't have to do anything I'll buy everything and she said okay we'll do it so that was the starting point so we actually did an exhibition in London we selected the pieces we then selected a kind of 100 or 200 pieces which I had to buy in advance to know the prices of Druor to the prices that we both agreed together but it was a different price and she came to London because obviously she felt she didn't want to come but she felt well why not and that led to having an exhibition with Ray Kabakubo Komdegason in Tokyo in 1990 which I organized for her and you quite rightly said Michael thank you that I really put out on the world stage I mean through these efforts the exhibitions in London the great ladies they used to come to London and buy all this jewelry and the mirrors that at the time I would have a constellation of eight mirrors selling for 8,000 pounds and no one mirrors any from 20 to 100,000 so in a sense I'm really pleased that I kind of discovered that incredible jewel thank you more questions thank you thank you David and to sort of build on the discussion of Lien Votron because I think it's such an interesting marketplace that you actually recreated how do you look at that now because I mean you can go to any you know auction catalog sale there's always work you can go to any design fair around the world and there's always work you hit that you met with her you knew exactly what we were dealing with what for people who are buying this today you know is this a buyer-beware market are there like what is the this is maybe an uncomfortable thing to talk about as a dealer but it's given the frothy nature of the market in this in these works what do you I think how do you look at that amazing fantasy in have worked that that a lot of people identify with these mirrors because it's almost like a piece of jewelry but if we are sort of saying which is true I mean it's like behind every artwork of an artist that is no longer with us there's also I don't know whether you're referring to this there's also a curatorial part of authenticating the work is that what you're referring to maybe very much and I think I think is is very important to obviously to know that what you are buying is really because just like Giacometti there was a sale in Paris and there were like a hundred pieces of Giacometti all kind of like cast bronzes all sign everything and they had to close the sale because every single one was fake so they kind of put them away so with Linvo Trump particularly yes you have to make sure that it is and with the success of the artist comes also the faking of the artist I suppose because obviously then you require some value but yes you have to have someone with my eyes so with the authority to to really tell you whether it is the right thing or not thank you yeah I can identify them very easily yeah any other question so I want to thank you oh oh okay wait let's wait wait we need the microphone every generation obviously produces as you were saying the ruleman's Giacometti's etc so you didn't really commit to that question about who are the ones for the future in other words let's take 50 years time who around today but not just through your gallery no no are actually going to be important well give me an example okay give an example right the Cinderella cabinet right a one-off as far as I'm concerned from the point of view that when he was working with Hornton Venison I don't feel that that gallery did very much for him I don't feel that the the solar chandeliers are really valid the desk was you know a production value that you couldn't ever use so who going forward is actually prolific you see in history you have it and you have it today there were masters in history which have remained the masters of today we have today many many many designers but the thing is the future I mean of course there are layers you cannot dismiss one because the price level of that one artillery layer is kind of the price level is less that master at the top level so there are these layers more so today than the were yesterday in the past because obviously there is more more houses more collectors more of it but I mean it's like I'm not against what this comment Daniela sort of said who is the Giacometti of today in terms of sculpting and Mattia is I mean when you really look that every single piece that he does with his own hands as a sculptor and I can never put any piece to banality and I looked at the pieces 10 years later 15 years later and they don't seem to get out of fashion meaning you don't look at it I don't want to see it anymore you may not use it in that interior but it holds the integrity of that work from the beginning there are many which I will not mention names artists all the other artists you have to watch no I mean it's like you have to really look that there are many that they are just decorative for the purpose of today and the price is not necessarily lower than Mattia or not but I do know that in time they will not hold that hierarchy for example but I mean then you have called then other masters I mean it's like I think Sahab will remember for her buildings more than her furniture but there may be one or two or three pieces that will really become the iconic pieces the Campana brothers they make such a lot of work again that I think not all the pieces will have the same level but I mean because it's such a big name they will continue being sold at a lower level and some pieces they become iconic blanche for example the chair Kouramata that is a masterpiece and the first time I saw this chair it was 15,000 pounds at whatever his name Yvkas 2 in Paris Rue de l'Université no Rue de l'Université I can't remember and I saw this chair and I sort of said Bonaparte I saw and it was 15,000 pounds and I sort of said what can I buy for 15,000 pounds so I didn't buy it but I knew that the chair would be what it is and now the chair you know if it's one million or something like that coming up or something like that which I'm not surprised but I mean one million is a big figure figures have changed I don't know but I think I want to add Fredrik Sonstallard all right okay one more question Sandi you wanted to ask but no sorry Michael Rosanna microphone Kuramata no but Kuramata Ms Blanche we can't do it without microphone because of the film you ask about Ms Blanche chair what's the question no I don't think we have it because it's not in context of today but Michael I mean I brought it forward because it's actually very important piece in terms of history technique I mean it's like I'm going to show it to you yeah so okay David so good luck with the book signing at the Salon Art and Design and with your booth and thanks for being here at the Cooper Hewitt Museum and thank you for coming so thank you Daniela