 Hi folks, I'm here with Joy Marie Mann, otherwise known as Savage Joy. She is the host of the Unruly Hour, and she also is the author of the Yoss Queen Chronicles. Joy, welcome to the program. Thank you so much, Mike, I always love doing shows with you. I love doing shows with you as well. It's really nice to kind of just kick back and talk politics, but in a more casual way in a more casual setting, because this has been a really, really long year for all of us, and I think that just being able to take some time to complain is a little bit therapeutic. And I hope that the viewers find this therapeutic as well, because our chats are usually really helpful for me to like digest information and news that I haven't like come to terms with. Same, very cathartic. Yeah, yes, yes, especially like with years like this, it feels like I don't know about you like 2019. I felt like it went by like that. But when it comes to 2020, I feel like this has been a decade because so much happened and we've kind of been like chronicling the Democratic Party primary. Like we talked before it really kicked off when Bernie first launched. We then kind of had another conversation when we were deep in the mud of it. And then one after Bernie Sanders had dropped out and now we're kind of like putting a bow on our series, if you will. And it's such a weird place where we're at. We're in this situation where Bernie lost, Biden is going to be the president, Trump refuses to concede, and so much has happened that I don't even know how we're going to be able to digest like the events of this year. I feel like coming out of 2020, nobody's going to be the same. Like, would you agree is that being too dramatic? Because I feel like this is so so much has changed, you know, in this year. Yeah, absolutely. I think some people are going to try to be the same like the the brunchers and and what have you. They already have Obama nostalgia. That's why they pick Joe. So I do definitely anticipate them. They're already posting things like I can't wait to have a good night's sleep again and to not go on Twitter and see our president, you know, have meltdowns and stuff, because that's what is really important, apparently at the end of the day. So I do see them, you know, I don't think insipid people really have life changes. I don't think their change their life changed in 2020 either. I think they like to say it has because of Trump and things like that. But in reality, 2020 by far has mainly affected people of color and poor people. Yeah, that's so right. Because this pandemic, it's not just like something that we look at as a disaster in terms of health, because certainly it is. I mean, we're approaching 300,000 deaths in America alone, probably surpassing that by the time most people see this video. But economically speaking, it's really been a disaster for a lot of people. And it's shocking to me the way that our government has responded. And I say this on the program all the time, the way that we respond it is basically in the way that you would expect a failed state to respond like society is on the cusp of total collapse and politicians don't really seem to have any sense of urgency. Now, at the time that we record this video, of course, there's still ongoing stimulus negotiations. That's kind of been the case for months now and nothing seems to land. So again, by the time most people see this, perhaps they'll have some more news. So we're speaking in the past, but it's still, you know, you look at other countries and the response isn't perfect, like in Canada, for example. It's not perfect, but comparatively speaking, it's insane that we haven't responded to the needs of people. And if you want people to stay home, which people need to stay home, if you want them to not go into work, there has to be regulations. Like if businesses are capable of allowing their employees to work remotely, you have to force them to do that. Otherwise, they may not might not want to do that. And on top of that, we have to give people a monthly basic income throughout the duration of this pandemic, because if you're asking people to not go to work, then you have to pay them. It's that simple. And, you know, what we're kind of seeing is this backlash at the state level. And maybe you could talk about your state in my state of Oregon. I'm really thankful with the way that Kate Brown has handled the pandemic. Although as a governor, you know, when you ask people to stay home, when you do these mandatory lockdowns, you don't necessarily have the power of the purse that someone in Congress has or that Congress has. So as a governor, you're an individual and you're using state funds, which are limited and you need that federal money. So basically when you ask people to lock down at the state level, when the federal government hasn't done anything, then that means that people are locking down with little to no money. Now, Kate Brown is trying to come up with a $50 million plan, I believe. But still, we need federal relief and we haven't gotten that. So like, what's the situation in your state? Because when Kate Brown, my governor announced another lockdown, like there were armed people outside of the governor's mansion protesting. And it's like on one hand, it's shocking that you would show up to, you know, to protest with a gun. I mean, this is just becoming an increasingly right wing thing. Militias are becoming more common in Oregon. But like I do I do sympathize with folks who can't lock down, who can't afford to miss work. I mean, when you think about like small businesses, restaurants, you know, surviving off of takeout alone isn't enough because people are more inclined to go to restaurants to get that like in-person dining experience. But when you're just getting takeout, people don't want to do that. So you have to give these businesses money. I mean, what's the situation in your state? Because it just it feels really, really grim right now. Yeah, well, I've been Pennsylvania and we have Governor Wolf, who, you know, I've seen trend multiple times on Twitter. And people from other states are like, oh, yes, he's so amazing. His handling of COVID and they just stand him. But as a Pennsylvanian, I can tell you that he has been a disgrace. He has absolutely bent over to, to, you know, withstand, you know, the the criticism of, you know, all the Nevermassers and stuff. We I live in Harrisburg area. So they're always on our capital steps and saying, you know, F Wolf and blah, blah, blah. And and Wolf is like, we're just going to stay green, you know, because they have that red, yellow, green thing. And we were green for months and months and months and months. He just put it back to, I believe, I don't think it's red. I think it's yellow like a week or two ago. And now today he announced he has COVID. Oh, wow. So and just a sign because I have to say this every time I talk about him to people who are in Pennsylvania. He's the the guy who was endorsing Joe Biden on video when he sharded his pants. How have I not seen this? Wait, what? Wait, somebody, somebody endorsed Joe Biden and sharded his pants. What? I would be all over this. Yeah, Governor Wolf was sitting there and he's like, I endorse Joe Biden because it was like a Skype type thing. And then all of a sudden Joe Biden like paused talking and made this like a really egregious noise and Governor Wolf's eyes bugged out and he just stopped. And it was I can't believe he didn't see that. This is this is something that I would be all over. Like a shard is something that's really important to me. Like as an elect is so human, he shits his pants. He shards like everyone else, one of us, one of us. Oh, my God, I'm genuinely enthusiastic to look up this video. I feel like that makes me weird. I can't believe he didn't see it. No, unless like I saw a trending and I just like scrolled past it. I don't know, but that's that's brilliant. I don't control past that. It's pretty good. OK, yeah, I'm definitely looking this up because that sounds incredible. I want to see Joe Biden shard himself. I'm still like really amused by the videos of Rudy Giuliani. There's the video of him just straight up audibly farting. And then you see Jenna Ellis like turn and give him the side eye, which is great. And then there's these videos of him where he has like this handkerchief and he blew his nose into the handkerchief. And I think this was at the the fraud press conference. And then he turned it. He like folded it, boogers side up, then wiped his head with it and then like put it back in his pocket. No, and then he won't. He wiped his lips with it. Oh, right. Yeah, that's right. I thought he I think he wiped his head and his mouth. But yeah, he wiped his mouth boogers side up. So functionally, he like put boogers on his lips. And then there's another video where he like he pulls out. I'm assuming the same handkerchief that he never washes. He just looks like that kind of a guy. And he like wiped his sweaty forehead with it and then sat it down like sweat side up, touched it, like padded it and then touched the arm of like the woman who he was sitting next to. I feel like Rudy Giuliani is going to start the next pandemic, not just like COVID, but he's going to start the next one like this. This dude is so. I think he actually when he got COVID, I think it was because he was trying to stick his hand down his pants again. I think he got that way. And there's this. Did you see the part of the video where he's at that same press conference where he farted? He asked he asked the lady who was sitting next to him. He's like, would you feel comfortable taking off your mask? And she's like, can you hear me? Because he's like the excuse was so people can hear you. We can hear people with masks. You absolute idiot. Like, I don't know. I'm honestly astonished by Rudy Giuliani. And what's what's interesting is that like we're filming this at the time where we learned that he has COVID-19. So in the event like that situation deteriorates by the time people watch this, that's going to be interesting. This conversation might be a little inappropriate, but just for for those of us like damage control, he's still alive. Well, kind of. I mean, he is kind of a goal, but in theory, exactly. Exactly. That's that's a good. I love how, like, we're about to, like, talk about 2020, put a bow on this really serious issues and it goes to sharts and farts. I blame you for that. I'm very ladylike. This is this is probably like the best conversation I've had on the channel. Because I feel like I have the sense of humor of like an 11 year old. And it's it's little things that like set me off like the hair dye. I will never not be funny. No, I'm 41. I will always, always laugh at farts, always. How can you not, especially when it's like a public figure, like I'm genuinely like there's like this glimmer in my eyes. If folks watching can see it to like go look up Joe Biden sharding himself. Well, since we're on the subject of like things that are disgusting right next to your book, which I have proudly displayed over here, I wanted to show people I have a little Trump doll. And what's interesting about it is that one of the arms is missing. So this is actually a funny story. This is a dog toy and I got this for my dog. And this was like one of his favorite toys ever. And I thought it was so ugly that I had to like get it for him. And he loved like the hair. And he's like, oh, my God, this is the best toy ever. Like that was that was his reaction. And then all of a sudden, like the arm is missing. And then a week later, I go outside to pick up poop. And I see an arm, a tiny hand in a pile of poop. He swallowed Donald Trump's arm. Amazing. So I had to display it on the shelf because I feel like that's that's so awesome and special that it has like a new sentimental value. It's very symbolic. It isn't it? That's why I had to do it. My dog pisses on, well, it was Hillary signs and now she goes on Biden signs. True story. I love that. I taught her, but Biden wants she just, I guess she just doesn't like him. So she does it on her own. It's like they can sense it. They can. So I've got to ask you. So there is and this is kind of switching gears. There's a vaccine that's coming out. And if enough people take it, if it's affordable and accessible, that's a different story for a different day, then it seems as if there's a possibility we could reach herd immunity by summer of 2021. Have you been thinking about like what your first post covid thing is going to be like it's hard to even think that far ahead because there's so much that we have to deal with before getting to that point, so much more suffering and whatnot. But I feel like people have been so cooped up, myself included that I'm kind of thinking like, what is my first post covid thing going to be? And is it lame to just like want to go to a restaurant? Like, have you thought about this? Like, what is going to be your first post covid event? Well, my co-author, Pat, who you know, Pat Cody, he and I were talking about doing a book tour in California. I've never been to California and we would go to Portland afterwards. Definitely. So that was our plan, go to like five cities in California. Ron Placon and Graham Elwood said we could do shows with them. Like, we have this whole thing planned out. And then covid happened. So the work, you know, the first thing we would do is schedule that again. I would go out to California. We would do shows with book signings and stuff like that because I've just never been there and I really want to go. So I feel like it's the perfect time to just travel and do something I haven't done. Yeah, I feel like I didn't even think about that because I've never published a book before. Like that has to be like a really major part of like sales is doing a book tour and like meeting with people who read the book and whatnot. There's yeah, there's so much that it's like the little things that I take that I took for granted because I've always been kind of like not necessarily introverted, like I'm an extrovert, I think. But I'm also like low key agoraphobic. So leaving home isn't isn't something that I have to do. Like I'm fine just staying home and chilling and playing video games and whatnot. But I actually do feel like I'm getting a little bit of cabin fever, you know, not being able to just like go out and really simple things. Like I know everyone probably misses their family and that's got to be the hardest part for me is not like seeing my my nephews and my nieces, my niece had a baby and I haven't even met her yet. You know, so it's like all these little things that you kind of don't even that aren't an issue. Like I would have met her on day one if, you know, there wasn't a pandemic, but all these things that really makes you like appreciate people. I think a lot more. And, you know, with the holidays coming up, it's going to be weird like not seeing everyone because, you know, at the beginning of the year, my dad passed away and I thought, man, this is going to be like a time for all of my family to really want to come together and spend time with each other than the pandemic hit. And it's like, well, I guess that's out of the window. So, you know, you're in isolation when you want to spend time with family. It's weird. So I've been kind of thinking lately, like, what do I want to do? And honestly, like just picking out at a restaurant is like the first thing I want to do. And like, sounds so amazing, right? And just getting drunk at the restaurant, ordering like all these little like foo foo drinks. It just sounds because like I don't do that, right? I don't do that very often. But, you know, it's it's these things. And I also want to support local businesses, of course, like restaurants who are barely staying open, you know, with takeout and whatnot. It's tough. I don't know that I would be comfortable going to like a movie theater right away, though. I feel like I don't know. I was already kind of weirded out, like, touching the seats at movie theaters because I'm kind of a germaphobe already. That I feel like is going to take some time. But a restaurant, I feel like I can see myself going towards. But I think that people are going to be a little bit leery at first, right? Like, I don't know if it's just me. But like just getting back to, quote, unquote, normal right away, I think it's going to take some time. Like, how do you feel about this? Because I am a hypochondriac, so I'm not the best gauge for this. But what are what are your thoughts? I, you know, I do have a lot of trepidation about these vaccines. I'm not an anti-vaxxer. I'm not saying I won't get it, I would. But I do definitely empathize with a lot of the black community who is saying they won't get it. I completely understand 100 percent. And, you know, because let's face it, weirder things have happened than the government trying to, you know, not to be a conspiracy theorist, but eugenics was a real thing. So I get it. But, you know, the fact that it's going to be given how many times before it would even get to us, that makes me feel a little more comfortable. But I was told it was only 90 something percent effective. So I think I would still want to wear masks and everything afterwards. I guess. Yeah. I mean, you know, you're significantly statistically reducing the likelihood that you can track the virus with it. But it's not like a zero percent chance after that. You know, I'm kind of with you like I we won't be able to take the virus right away. It's going to go to health care workers and, you know, first responders, rightfully so, and elderly people. I mean, so you mean, you mean the not the virus? The oh my God, the vaccine. Oh, right. Did I say the the virus? What about people? Oh my God, I'm one. I'm like, wait, what? What did I say? No, no, no, the vaccine will go to like first responders, like people who are putting themselves in danger, rightfully. So I think that's super important. So we won't even really be able to take it like right away, although I would have no reservations about taking a vaccine. The only thing that is a little bit worrisome to me is that there is a report from I don't know if it's out of the UK, but the Pfizer and BioNTech vaccine, apparently people who have allergic reactions to a lot of medications shouldn't take it. And my mom has allergic reactions to every medication, so she won't be able to get the virus, which is a little bit worrisome. So I have to still be concerned with like her safety and whatnot. And she's at high risk. So it's not going to be like right away. This this I feel like it's going to take some time, basically, you know, but it is nice to kind of feel like the light is at the end of the tunnel because, you know, at the beginning of this, none of us have dealt with this before. Who was alive and can remember 1918, you know, during the Spanish flu. So it's like the uncertainty is kind of what creeped me out, right? Because how long is this going to last? And that really was an open question. And now we're kind of getting a sense of the real timeline. And it does feel a little bit more, I guess, I feel a little bit more at ease knowing that the end is in sight. But then when I think about how bad it is right now, it's still daunting because it's going to take so long for things to get back to quote unquote normal. And even after, you know, the virus itself is contained, the economic impact, it's going to be devastating. Like I'm not sure if you saw the report from Common Dreams or the report that they talked about from the UN that talked about how this is going to push people around the world into mass poverty, like it's going to spike. And that is going to be something that world governments just aren't equipped to deal with. I mean, look at the way that we've responded to climate change as a species. We've done nothing, basically. So, you know, another crisis and then climate change on top of that. It's just, you know, it's a really it's a weird time for the human civilization. We'll put it that way. Yeah, it really is. And, you know, Biden, who I'm just, you know, not exactly a fan of. When he posts about the COVID vaccine, he never says free. He never, ever, ever says it and it's infuriating because he leaves off those two words for free. Everyone should have the vaccine for free. He never says that, but so many other reps do. And that's that's something that truly worries me. Are people are we going to have to go fund me so people can get, you know, these these vaccines wouldn't be surprised? Yeah, it's another layer of complication because when I see reports about people in the UK getting the vaccine, they don't even have to consider whether or not their insurance will cover it. It's just they get it. They're citizens. But that's another thing that we have to wonder about. You know, there's supposed to be government waivers and it's supposed to be affordable. But I don't know what that means and affordability is very subjective. So it's like, how are we going to reach herd immunity if people can't actually get the vaccine? And that's something that they're going to have to take action on. Like if these politicians and this includes Republicans actually want the economy to recover, they have to contain the virus. And to do that, we have to have the vaccine and it needs to be free. Affordability, whenever I hear affordability, I think it's going to be expensive because the Affordable Care Act was supposed to be affordable and it's not affordable. Like I have health care through the ACA and it is dog shit. It's overpriced and it doesn't offer me everything that I need. I mean, I need it because without my medication would be a lot of money, but at the same time, it's it's shit. It's like if I have to go see a doctor, I'm getting, you know, the copay covered, but then I get hit with a bill for 200 bucks later on. So it sucks. So affordability, it's it depends on who you are and how much money you have. So yeah, I think that's a good point. If the vaccine itself isn't going to be free and widely available, is it really going to to do what it's going to do in other countries? You know, that's that's one thing to consider. Yeah, I wanted to ask you. So basically, we're at this weird situation. We're in a lame duck session, and these are always weird sessions. But Donald Trump still hasn't admitted that he lost, which is very bizarre to me. We have a Biden administration coming in. What do you expect to happen on inauguration day? Because I'm hoping that Donald Trump does some spectacle. Like if you had any predictions, what would that be? I think that he will absolutely have a spectacle. I think he will have a fawn temper tantrum and I am here for it. And I think it's going to be absolutely egregious watching the shit libs celebrate that it is going to be absolutely disgusting. And we're going to be using the vomit emoji quite frequently. I can just feel it. But I, you know, every day it seems like I'm just so like I just say to myself, oh, I'm so glad I didn't vote for either one of them. Like I just keep telling myself like every day because they're just they're both such a mess. And Biden's cabinet picks are, you know, as as gross as we all thought they would be. Bernie came out today and said, Biden wouldn't have won without progressive votes. And yet he's not representing. It's not letting any progressive represent in his cabinet. So and and he's not, you know, he's picking, you know, people who are complete establishment and, you know, Doug Jones, are you kidding me? Like, are you kidding me? Yeah, it's it's really, really. I was going to say disappointing, but then that would imply that I expected something different when in actuality. I mean, we're kind of we're he's everything that I thought he would be. The only shocker to me is he chose Javier Becerra for Health and Human Services. That is good. I mean, Javier Becerra is an establishment Democrat, but he has been a proponent of Medicare for All, which is better than I had expected because he was considering Gina Ramondo, which is a shill for the health insurance industry. But I mean, still, like, we're not going to get anyone who's going to make fundamental changes. Like, we're not getting a Secretary of State who's going to change our course. Like, the Empire is going to continue on as it always has. And we're not going to get that change. Like, as he as he stated early on, you know, nothing is going to fundamentally change. And I believe that. Does that mean that it's better than having another Trump term? Sure. But are we going to get a worse Trump in the future if he doesn't make those fundamental changes? I think so. And I hope I'm wrong about that. But, you know, you can't just keep ignoring the material needs of citizens and expect them to not be susceptible to radicalization, you know, and the right, the Republican Party, they're shifting further and further to the right. And you have to respond to that by, you know, giving people things that they need, you know, because radicalization is something that happens when societies get desperate every single time. And it's it's really frustrating that Democrats haven't grasped that yet, or they know and they just don't care. Either way, you know, it's it's really going to come down to how much leftists in Congress are going to fight. And speaking of Bernie Sanders, I wanted to ask you because the last time that we spoke, we were both kind of not mad at Bernie Sanders, but feeling a little bit disappointed. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanted to tell to ask you, like, what's your feelings on Bernard? Because I feel like the flame has kind of been rekindled when we're talking again, like we're not like staying the night at each other's houses, but we're like, you know, we're we're we're dating. Yeah. I don't know why you said analogy. I took the divorce papers off the table. We're no longer getting a divorce, but we are still, you know, split custody and separate at this point. He's my man. He's always going to be my man. Yeah, I love him, but he pisses me the hell off a lot. But namely, when he was, you know, going out for Joe Biden, I was fortunate enough to interview Burns brother, Larry Sanders, who is the head of health and human services in the UK Green Party. And he gave me like a background on Bernie and and he was extremely upset. That Bernie was going state to state. It was freaking infuriating for us to watch that. You're risking your life for someone who won't even say thank you. But now since the election is over, now he seems to be getting a little bit of that fire back, which I'm very happy about today. I watched a clip of him being interviewed about COVID and it was Bernie, like it was Bernie from 40 years. It was the Bernie we know and love. And I got I got emotional. I'll admit it because I was just like, damn, I've missed you so much. Like he's just I'm always going to love him. He's always going to be my hero, no matter how bad he pisses me off because he woke me up and he changed my life. So regardless, he's, you know, he's my man, regardless, even though I want to shake him. Yeah, you know, that's that's my sentiments as well. I predicted on Twitter that Bernie is going to be like super insufferable until after the election, because he's biting his tongue, right? Like he wants to say what we all know is true, but he doesn't want to be accused of, you know, helping Donald Trump. And this was kind of something that we touched on before. And I think you made the point that he really kind of like internalizes this idea that he helped Hillary lose or helped Trump win or something. And we know that that's complete bullshit. But still, it's it's something that he maybe feels at the back of his mind, you know, which he shouldn't, but he does. We're all human, you know, so we're imperfect. So yeah, immediately after the election, we kind of see the old Bernie come back where he doesn't have to bite his tongue anymore. It's over. Joe Biden won. And yeah, I was it was really it was difficult to see Bernie Sanders travel around the country during a pandemic because he literally is risking his life. He he's not young, you know, and even if he is is healthy and he's in good shape for his age, still you're you're doing so much more than anyone else is willing to do or was willing to do. But it is nice to have him fight again, because one thing about, you know, a post primary Bernie, and this was true after he endorsed Hillary, is that it feels kind of like we're left defenseless, like we don't have someone in power with that high of a profile who's willing to fight for us and to get get him back and like to him for him to be himself. Again, it kind of feels in a weird way like we get that security blanket back, like we have someone to point out what's obvious, like we're thinking it, but we need someone to say it on television, who people are going to listen to. So to see him back and like to see him, you know, make the point on MSNBC how, you know, we always have money for corporate welfare and wars. But when children are hungry, all of a sudden we don't have money. Like that's what I want to see. And it's not like he wasn't making those kinds of points, but you see a very different Bernie after the primaries. And we know this now because we've seen it twice. So it's it's nice to have Bernie back. And like I'm I'm feeling like I am happy with him again. Yeah, absolutely. It's difficult because I, you know, I just didn't even look at his post for a while and and stuff like that. And it was it was difficult because, you know, he has an incredible heart. You know what he truly believes. But, you know, having spoken with his son personally, with his brother personally, you know, these people, I know for a fact that he did feel he was made to feel very guilty about Trump, even though it wasn't his fault. And he's in a predicament that none of us ever were in and ever in. So for us to say I would have done this, I would have done that. You don't really know, honestly. So I do cut him some slack in that regard. But yeah, I mean, he's he's still it is not me, us, but I'm just I was very fortunate to have him. There was an article today I shared on Twitter that said that he's the one leading in the stimulus fight. Yeah, absolutely. He's not even a Democrat. Yeah, now I feel like all of those arguments are going to fade away. As they did, you know, back in 2017, when he wasn't a threat, like once you neutralize the threat, then you can embrace him for what he is to you if you're a corporate media news pundit, you know, a ratings boon, you know, so we're going to see him on MSNBC and CNN, they are no longer afraid that he's going to, I don't know, hurt their chances and upset the apple card because he's not. He's not going to run again. It's over. So now, you know, he can he can raise his profile. They can promote him without being worried that that's going to offend their corporate advertisers. And yeah, so it's sad, you know, but at the same time I do I see where he's coming from. I think that the point you made is is is sound like he's only human. Like even though I don't think he should have blamed himself for Trump at all, you know, when you do have that big of a profile, if I were in his position, I would think, well, maybe I could have done something different to stop it. Like, I don't know. It's just like you said, we're not in that situation. We're not Bernie Sanders. So, you know, if I were Bernie, I know I would want to, you know, use whatever platform I have to stop Donald Trump and I wouldn't want to be blamed. I wouldn't want that on my conscience, you know, so I get it. Like he wants what's good for the country, but at the same time, it is hard to see as, you know, a supporter. Like you went to Iowa for five weeks to canvas for him. You know, we we did everything we possibly could. And, you know, to see it all kind of end in the way it did, it hurts. So it takes time, even if Bernie, like, said everything right and didn't, you know, bite his tongue, I think it still would be difficult because, you know, there's no right answer to these things. Like, did he drop out too early? I think, yes, but he would say, you know, I didn't see a path. There's so much. And I think, you know, it's going to take a lot of time for us to be introspective and figure out where we went wrong. And maybe we did everything right. Maybe we didn't really do anything wrong. And the establishment just is still too powerful. Who knows? But, you know, it's nice. Go ahead. I do know from a discussion with his brother, I do know that the reason Bernie dropped was because of covid period, which many of us suspected. Biden was not signing on to his statement, stating that we demand the primaries be moved to jail only in like three months, like all the other ones. He was telling people to still go out and vote, whereas Bernie was saying, stay home. And Bernie didn't want people to keep getting sick to go out and vote for him because he is actually a humanist, whereas Biden is just like, if you die while voting for me, at least I've already got your vote. So for covid, Bernie wouldn't have dropped. That's what really hurt because he did it for us in a backwards way. You know, it hurts to think that way, but he did. He did it for us. Yeah, you're right. Totally. I think that if the shoe were on the other foot and Bernie was leading and Bloody Monday never happened, Joe Biden would have been trying to delay the primaries like we know. And I still get angry when I think about the way that like every single Democrat in that primary would have been willing to steal the nomination away from Bernie Sanders had he had a plurality, but not a majority of delegates. And that's something that I feel like people need to reckon with more just because it didn't happen now or this time doesn't mean it's not going to happen in the future. And we like we've really got to fix our democracy. Like we saw how Donald Trump tried to cripple the US Postal Service to win, you know, how he's alleging fraud now. But even in Democratic Party primaries, the suppressant suppressive tactics that we see from Republicans in generals, we see the same thing on the Democratic side and people don't reckon with that fact because it hasn't like actually led to anything significant yet. Like we haven't seen super delegate steal the nomination away from someone we support. But it can happen in the future if we don't take action now, because Bernie's not going to be the last progressive to run for president. He's just not. And so if we ever want like a president AOC or Nina Turner to be able to win rightfully and outright and fairly, then we have to do something to raise the salience of this issue, because I feel like most people aren't really tuned into that. So is there anything else that you want to say to like kind of put a bow on this entire conversation with regard to the Democratic Party primary and the state of American politics? I know that's a big broad loaded thing to ask because there's where do you even begin? But is there anything that you wanted to kind of add to close out our series of the election 2020? I think, you know, we have to as difficult as it is, we have to find hope in small places. Like I have hope that someone as incredible as Rashida to leave is, you know, is there. I have hope that people like Corey Bush and Jamal Bowman, these people have been elected. And I have hope that today, Nina, and now she is considering taking Martha Fudge's place in Congress. So, you know, I have hope in these things. It may not be a lot of hope and they may not be like major things, but something I also like to kind of fantasize about is if the two runoffs, even though I'm not crazy about the people, if they win, Bernie will then become in charge of health as far as the the in the house. Right. Yeah. So that would be kind of amazing to have like the staunchest Medicare for all person like in existence, be in charge of that. So there are some things to kind of, you know, to give us a little hope. We just we have to to find little things to to keep us going. I totally agree. And I'm glad that you said that because it's really easy like with the state of politics to get bogged down by all the negatives because there's so much, but we can't afford to like be doomers. You know, we have to try to find hope and try to be optimistic because when you lose hope and optimism, that's when you kind of lose the will to fight and that's not an option. You know, so I feel like it really is important for us to to focus on, you know, reasons to be optimistic and we do have reasons to be optimistic. Even though it may not seem like it, we do. So, yeah, I'm really glad that you said that because, you know, it I feel like it's important. Like I kind of catch myself getting a little bit too negative every once in a while and I have to remind myself, you know, think about where we were 10 years ago, we're in a different spot now. And sure, times ticking when it comes to climate change, but just in terms of like how, you know, we have the squad now. That was never a thing before. Like we just had all these corporate Democrats and the ones who were progressive, you know, they were more silent. And it's nice to have fighters on our side that really does that mean something. It's not it's not insignificant. It really does matter. So yeah, I'm glad that you said that. One last thing that I wanted to talk about is unrelated to politics. So you've been kind of detailing your disability blindness. And I feel like for me, I have experience with disabilities because my father was on a wheelchair, but not invisible disabilities. And there's a lot like we really take things for granted. Like eyesight is something that a lot of us don't even think about. But this is something that you've had to talk about. So do you want to share your experience? Because I feel like everything that you're you're talking about is so important because you're really shedding light on an issue that a lot of people don't have experience with. Yeah, thank you so much. I, you know, it's been kind of crazy. Last year, I woke up without eyesight. It literally overnight, nothing gradual, nothing like that. I just woke up without the majority of my sight. I went to the hospital. They diagnosed me with something called myopic degeneration. It's not macular degeneration. It's it's quite rare, especially with people under 55. And since then, it's been multiple eye surgeries, treatments every month that are over $12,000 a piece in each eye and even after insurance, thousands of dollars. And, you know, just Friday, I had to have an emergency appointment to go back in because I lost even more of my sight in the better eye. The left eye has pretty much no sight. And the right eye has now been diagnosed as legally blind as well. So I can't drive. I can't, you know, it's gotten to the point where they have a like a social worker who's going to be spending the day with me to go over how to do things, you know, things that I'm having trouble with every every day things. And like I said, all of this happened overnight. But so I've been dealing with, you know, the loss of my job because of, you know, losing eyesight and and just all of this. And, you know, when you have an invisible illness, you really notice the way people behave. I see yesterday, I made a post that said, you know, people online use the word blind as a pejorative to for ignorant a lot. Like I've been called blind numerous times. What are you blind? Well, yes, I am, you know, so so that, you know, that's something I'm more conscious of now. But even, you know, with COVID, you go in a store and you see like the the arrows pointing one way and things like that. I mess up sometimes. I can't see the arrows all the time and people get huffy and I just apologize. I'm sorry, I'm legally blind. I didn't see that. Or doing simple things like putting a debit card in the card reader, I might have to try several times because I'll miss the the slot or I'll put it in backwards or something and you hear this like in line in the seven. And, you know, people are very unaware and I get the fact that like they don't know that I have this disability. But at the same time, I think people should be more aware that there could be something like that. Another invisible disability that millions of people have is mental health. You know, people are very quick to say, you forgot to take your crazy pills, things like that. That's ableist. That's not OK. That's not funny. I mean, so people have gotten to the point that, yes, well, they don't say like retard as much and things like that. People do definitely still say very ableist things. So it's it's been, you know, very life changing and very traumatic for me to go through the physicality of losing sight, walking into things, falling down, things like that. But then also to see the way people react to that, you know, something like, where is the so and so? It's right in front of your face. OK, can you show me? Like, I don't realize how much you use your eyes. And I know that sounds so stupid, but you really don't. Like, you don't realize if you put on a mask and eye mask and try to walk around, you're going to realize, holy shit. Like, I didn't realize just how easy it is to take advantage of, you know, having that sight. So, yeah, and it's not to freak anyone out. What I have is very rare, but, you know, just at the fact that it happens overnight is is, you know, why, essentially, you know, my life changed so much. When you didn't have time mentally to prepare for it, like with my dad's situation when I talk about it, like he eventually ended up in a wheelchair. But, you know, it was a gradual decline for this. It's like one day, everything changes. And to be like hit with that and then to have the response from people, it just kind of compounds all of it. And that's why I think like when you make these posts, like sharing your experience, it's so important because nobody really thinks about these things. Like I myself, I don't think about these things. Like I probably have been in the grocery store sometimes and waiting, you know, in front of or behind someone and they're taking too long. And it's like, oh, my God, please hurry up. But I don't think about these sorts of things because, as you said, it's an invisible disability. And I think it's a good reminder to everyone to just be more mindful of other individuals because we don't necessarily know what's what's happening. Like for me, I felt like I was always like woke for lack of a better word because I dealt with disabilities. And like, you know, I, you know, have been in these situations where I'm pushing my dad in a wheelchair on the sidewalk and I'm blocking a bunch of people who want to get by. And you know, you don't you don't hear comments, but you hear the heavy breathing, the size and it's like, oh, my God, fuck you, fuck you. Like, you know what I mean? But, you know, there's different things like and you're right up like mental health. These invisible disabilities that we kind of like we know exist, but don't grapple within a real concrete way. I think it's important that people share their stories, especially someone like you who has a lot of like recognition and you have a platform because I don't know anyone who's blind, legally blind. So you're like basically my one person who's opened my eyes to all of this. And it really it does make you think like we take so much for granted. Like, you know, just something as simple as our senses, you know, hearing, seeing, like to know what that would mean for us to lose one is it would be completely life changing. So I think that like in a way, having people share these stories is it's life changing for other people in a way, not in as like significant as a way, but just to like shed light on it, like the things that you notice the way that you see more ableism now. Whereas before, maybe you hadn't, you know, thought about these things. It's really interesting. And for me, like, go ahead. I think, you know, something I've had, you know, other visually impaired people reach out to me about it is that I just co-wrote a book and people don't realize like the process of that. Like, I dictated everything. I didn't type anything. I just verbally said it. And my co-author Pat had to read everything back to me. It probably took us twice the time to write the book because of, you know, because of that disability, but we did it. And I'm so freaking proud. I never thought, you know, that I could do something like that after losing, you know, so much of my sight. So I've had people who are blind and legally blind, visually impaired, reach out to me and, you know, share their stories. And it's really incredible, like hearing them say, well, I went to college after I became blind and things like that. It's so inspiring. Yeah, it's it's incredible. And I think that it's important that you don't let it defeat you. But I wanted to ask you, like, is there is that like a double edged sword in a way because you've managed to accomplish so much? Like you wrote a book as someone who's legally blind. Like, does that give people a little bit of a sense of, oh, well, you know, you're fine then, you know, I, you know, it doesn't affect you. Like, how do people respond to that? Because I feel like the fact that you wrote a book legally blind to me is like astonishing, like it's crazy. And like doing these little things, like just like browsing the internet, like it's different if you are legally blind. So like, because you're able to do so much still, how do people respond to that in a way? Like, does that question make sense? Because it's it's always like, you know, there's this expectation if you're ignorant, like you don't know. Like when I when I thought of people who were legally blind, I envisioned people with like a cane and sunglasses and not really and having someone guide them around because that's all I've seen in public to know that they were blind. But I never thought of people who were legally blind who still have a little bit of eyesight, you know, who still can, you know, walk themselves and they can guide themselves, although there's there's some difficulties. Like, is there a difference? Do you think between like those sorts of folks who are like completely blind and more, I don't know if the question makes sense, sort of, but like just I guess I'm kind of touching on expectations of like what people I think I did have someone who I considered an acquaintance say something to me a week ago about he he doesn't think it's as bad as I implied it is. And I cried for like three days because I'm like, how dare you? Like, how dare you? You you have no idea what I go through. So I think most people like understand the fact that there's knowledge and like when I'm, you know, posting on Twitter, it's, you know, I'm speaking into something. It's typing for me. It's like not that uncommon. So I think most people probably assume that's the kind of stuff I do. But yeah, that the one person who said that to me, it really got this. It got to me. And I thought, are my do my viewers think this of me? Do they think I'm like exaggerating or something? And, you know, it's one person, but it just, you know, you know what it's like being on the air and having so many viewers and stuff. And it's like someone will say something and you're just kind of like, I do a lot of people feel that way. The negativity stays with you so much more than the positivity, which it's so weird. I really honestly felt like I was like, I should seriously like copy some of my medical documentation like PMM because I was so just disgusted. So, yeah, I mean, there's going to be some of that. But in at the same time, like, I know what I'm going through. So and you don't have to prove anything to anyone. Like, I think that the response from people will be like, oh, well, you will accomplish this. You wrote a book, so it must not be that bad. And then there's going to be people who are like, that's incredible. Like you wrote a book and you're legally blind. Like, wow. Like it's just because like for me, my situation is a little bit different. But I have panic disorder, which is where you have panic attacks. So I'll do something which is really bold that someone with panic attacks wouldn't do like, you know, speak at an event or something or give a toast at a wedding or something. And then a month later, I'll like inexplicably seem like I'm really flaky as a friend that I'd make up excuses why I can't visit you and and see you. And it's like, well, you did that, you did all of that. And you're you're meaning to tell me that you don't want to drive an hour. When it's like, you know, it's not like it's always static, like situations change for people with these invisible disabilities. You know, where it's like sometimes you feel like you're you're doing a little bit better than usual and you could push yourself to do more. Other times you can't, you know, the situation changes. And that's one thing that I think is important is that like none of this is ever static, you know, like for for my dad, for example, he wasn't just like one day in a wheelchair, unlike your situation. Like he sometimes needed a wheelchair because he was too weak to stand up. And then other times he he he, you know, he would be fine. He could actually walk to the kitchen, go to the bathroom. So it changes. And so, you know, it's interesting watching people who don't deal with it respond to that because it's like, well, you did this. So why can't you just do this, you know? And that's always something that you don't think about unless you're in that in that situation. So it's just it's interesting. And I think it's so important. Like, thank you for sharing your experience because people don't know about these things, you know. Yeah, and I could have been one of them. I try to think back and, hell, I've probably been the same way. I feel like we all like we've all done something that, you know, that we're not proud of because we're ignorant and ignorant isn't necessarily like meant to be a pejorative. It's just that if we don't know about somebody else's struggle and we're not privy to what they're going through, of course, you know, we might just be in the moment mad that they're taking too long or whatever, you know. And it's important because like this really does remind people that we're all human beings and it's not as as simple as like, OK, well, this lady who's swiping our credit card 100 times, she's not just like moving in slow motion because she's drunk or something stupid. Like she she's she has a disability, you know. I could be both, I don't know, depending on the day. It depends, of course. Well, Joy, before we go, can you tell everyone where to find you and where to watch you? Yes. So I just became part of a new group on YouTube and it's called Roar Media. And what it is is a new organization that I started with a few other women and one gentleman. And the entire purpose of branching off and creating this organization is because we're having streamers primarily who are female LGBTQ and people of color because we notice there's just not enough of that at all. Yeah. So, yeah, we created this to specifically highlight these people and and get their voices heard. So we have some great streamers. Jen Perlman started with us. I'm doing shows and we were announcing a couple others this month that are pretty exciting that I think people like. So you can find me on there and then I also have a YouTube that's mine, Savage Joy Marie Mann, in which I have over three hundred episodes of my show from like past and present. That's incredible. And of course, where do we buy the book? It is Savage and Pat dot com. And yeah, like we marked the price down to 17.95 for Christmas and we're shipping all orders within 24 hours. And if this might not air before then, but next Thursday, the 17th, we will be Miss Nina Turner will be airing our interview on her. Awesome. Yes, quite a quite an honor because she is actually a protagonist of our book, Nina Burner. So to have her a read the book and the interview us about it is kind of amazing. Yes. And I have to recommend the book to viewers. Like I already recommend the book of people know that I love it and I've tweeted about it and whatnot. It is so funny and I am a really slow reader. So it takes me time to read books. I read that book in a weekend, basically, like I got through a couple of chapters and then on the weekend, I just like crushed it on a Saturday. And I had like some legit like cry laugh moments. Like it is so, so good, so funny. And like if you are a Bernie Sanders supporter, if you're like on left Twitter, it's especially like going to be funny for you. But I think that anyone will really like identify with it. If you're just like a lefty, it's it's so good. I cannot recommend it enough. That's why I have it up on the shelf. These are only the books that I have read and recommend and it's been here for a while. So, yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much. Yeah, definitely. We're very proud of it. We we've got some some great people who who have given us props. So very proud. Yeah, good stuff. All right. Well, Joy, it's always just a blessing to speak with you. It's always so much fun. Like I feel like we like we talk so much shit. And sometimes, you know, we go off and talk about sharks once in a while. But that's OK. It's always so much fun. We are left soulmates. I think that's what it is for sure. Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on the program, Joy. Of course, we'll talk again soon, so I will see you later.