 Hey friends Tyler Patner here special video today for you. I am joined by the headman in charge at Air Force air guns and raw Rapid air works John mccaslin John, thank you for joining us today John's a really interesting guy most of you probably don't know that because he's quite reserved. I think that's a fair thing to say stoic. Oh I don't Tend to put myself in the public eye too off. Yeah, so obviously I like making people uncomfortable So we put a microphone on and we're gonna talk all things air guns. So here we go. We're gonna have a good time All right, let's jump right in John How'd you get into air guns? How'd I get into air guns? I got into air guns as a teenager I was actually into firearms as a teenager and What I used to go to gun shows The friends I made there One of them Out of the out of the people I met one of them became a really good friend and he collected air guns and I Messed around with air guns somewhat, but I wasn't that interested in them. I was more into the cool factor of firearms and things like that but He got me he got me interested in it got me Motivated to start collecting air guns and learning about air guns and the next thing I knew I was into firearms and air guns What was the air gun that got you started if there was one? There really wasn't actually what what got me started. I really wasn't interested in a specific air guns. I Guess it was the backyard shooting in the backyard Being able to shoot and not have to go to a gun range is what got me interested in them, but The thing is that I was into machine guns And I lived in Illinois and you couldn't own machine guns not good. Yes So what really got me going in an air gun direction is like Of course, my interest in machine guns was just as a hobby and as a novelty thing so I was thinking at one point Since this guy got me kind of interested in air guns. It's like well You know, I could maybe I should design an air machine gun You know and I went off on this tangent Several year tangent, you know to design air machine guns And it started as a teenager carried in through my time in the military carried through college carried through to Being a government agent. I actually started going to the shot show because I was so good so convinced I was going to build this air machine gun thing sure that I needed to know how to sell it and Then I went off on a or actually Started making prototypes in the garage And after two or three years of like going to the shot show to meet people and see how the industry worked On my vacation time because at that point in time. I was a federal agent. Yeah, and I met this guy That was a wholesaler in England at the shot show and we became friends. So he came to the shot show one year With this kind of cobbled up air gun thing and some guy was making in the back shop You know his back shed in England. He said, you know, this guy is making this gun. It was like Funny-looking single-shot gun with his big tank. The gun was only this long and the tank was as long as the gun And it was threaded for a silencer because it was from England, you know, and that's what they did that over there He brought this thing in and of course I've been telling them. Yeah, I'm gonna design this BB machine gun for it You know as a novelty thing that's gonna be fun to play with And he was telling me, you know, this guy's making these in this shed in England And every time he makes and I'm selling them and he makes a couple and I'll sell them And then he makes a couple more and I'll sell them But every time he makes two or three of them, they're different There's a lot of things back in that like time frame right like 80s 90s He keeps improving on it. Yeah, you know because he's building them two or three at a time And it's like, oh, I could make this better if I change this and then he builds two or three more And he said, you know, if I could get enough of these things I Could sell a lot of these because because people really like this concept And I of course I'm like, oh, wow I'm designing a air machine gun. This is just a single shot right. This is easy This is like how hard can this be right? You know, I'm flipping it around and it's like, oh, yeah And at that point in time that thing It only had like three or four moving parts. Okay You know it it when you when you cocked it you push the barrel forward Not not the bolt the barrel physically move physically moved and then hooked on the trigger Okay, you know, so the trigger pivoted and then you would pull the trigger and the whole barrel was slammed back into the barrel And I was thinking what that's that's dirt simple. Yeah, right at the end of that four-day shot show I was I said basically And much to my chagrin today. I said He said, you know, if I could get a lot of those I could sell I could sell a bunch of them And I said Well, I could I could make this sure I could make this this is simple you know, and he said Well, why don't you and I said, okay, I will The start of all great Right there. That's how it started and then I spent Within Six weeks I had a prototype That's what up a prototype that's quick because I'd had this little lathe and mill set up in my garage So you did it all by hand. So I did it all myself fabricated this prototype And it fired and it had the slam barrel thing in it, you know, and we Ended up taking that to IWA. Okay so for those that don't know shot show is the big US trade show for the gun industry outdoors industry IWA is the equivalent for Europe and probably in the airgun space a lot bigger than Shot show is for airguns fair statement. Oh, yeah, the IWA is probably One-third the size of the shot show, right? But there's probably 15 more 15 times more airgun related things there than there is a shot show Yes, you know, so it's big big into air guns there. So you take this thing to IWA Yeah, we took it at IWA. We showed it got some interest. Okay, and that was the start you know that that what's got it that got us started and then It turned into a three-year project of refinement You know, and we hauled that thing to the shot show for three years after that It turned out to be a little bit more complicated than I thought it was gonna be Sure because it it had to be it had to be accurate. It had to be reliable and You know, no one had ever built a design like that before So there was a lot of playing around with it trying to get the valving system working properly working consistently But the thing is it did For its size it performed better than just about anything else at the marketplace at the time Now because you were designing this for a guy in the UK sub-12-foot-pound gun Like relatively low power by the idea at that point in time. Yeah, initially it was a 12-foot-pound gun and The idea was you know, we had this thing of like well He wanted to sell them and I was intrigued with building them So I was like, well, I'll build them and you sell them and it'll be an English product But we're gonna it'll be made in the United States you know, and we proceeded forward on that note and In 1990 I I started this about 93 94 started it and then by about 1997 everybody was saying this thing will never make it to the marketplace You know, it's like this is vaporware. This is never gonna show up. We've never seen that in the airgun industry ever before ever No, but about the time people were saying no, you know, that's never gonna see the light of day We shipped the first shipment to England in December of 97. Okay, and that's what got it all rolling and then you know Small shipment in December probably three or four months later another shipment and then around mid to late 1998 I Thought well the the market for this thing is in England. This is not a US product, but Since I'm here, I might as well Offer it here. I might as well see if I can sell some of them in the United States and That's when we came out with Air Force and actually there was There was a company he there was another Air Force in England Okay, so that's why it was gunpower and there was air Air Force existed as a as a small company that made silencers in England Okay, at that time and Jeff Came up with gunpower as his name to sell it under in Europe in England But I like the name Air Force and I thought well That Air Force is in England and I'm in the US so should be good my company Air Force right I like that name Sure, so that's where Air Force came from. Okay, so then you start making some higher power guns Which you started with tech what is now a talent? Yeah, yeah, okay I think the condor is next And then probably talent SS after the condor all right and then the rest is kind of history and then moving a few years forward So like 2016-17 you come out with the Texan like the first iteration of the Texan I believe was 17 Sounds about right. Yeah, I think that's that's right Which at the time monster big bore like Two 300 foot-pounds was kind of the max at that point and then you come out with this 500 foot-pound at that point in time Yeah, there are a big bore our Commercially available gun Air gun the biggest the biggest thing out there was 200 and something foot-pounds. Yeah, like 230 240 something like that You know the thing is what a lot of people don't know is that there was some small customs custom guys That were making four or five hundred foot-pounds absolutely. Yep, so it's not like they didn't exist. I just Commercialized yeah, like Dennis quacking Bush is the big one. Yeah, yeah, Dennis quacking Bush had been around for a while Yeah, and and I knew Dennis and in fact, I know Dennis. Mm-hmm. He's a friend of mine And I thought well heck if they could it's like I Guess my thought pattern was and what we'd been seeing is That there was a lot of interest in 25 caliber because it was more powerful and then suddenly 30 caliber pellets started showing up and people thought oh, yeah, this is great. I get more power out of 30 and There started to be this move incremental move bigger every year and when I started working on the Texan 357 pellets were just coming out and that was what was driving the energy capabilities at that point in time was that 357 pellet and They were in the 200 some grain Or 200 some foot-pound category And I just kind of thought well Why all this little incremental stuff? Let's leapfrog. Let's just leapfrog everybody with a 500 foot-pound gun The 457 Texan at that 500 foot-pound mark at the time just like blows past everything Yes, everybody immediately said that we were liars and you couldn't get 500 foot-pounds out of an area Sure sure sure sure so you prove everybody wrong and then obviously over the next Probably five six years up until now right you incrementally improve upon that with You know carbon bottle tx2 valve You know you come out with some short versions suppressed versions. Yeah improve incremental improvements. Yes So you kind of differentiate the line you've got five different calibers in the Texan now. I believe four or five So you so you've done a really great job of building that line But I think at the back of everybody's mind There's like oh well Air Force has this this basically what is amounts to a similar design for all their guns, right? When are we when are we gonna get a multi shot and you gave everybody the answer to this and probably the most unexpected way possible? And that was 2018 that was January 2018 shot show. Yeah, and that was raw. That was raw So Air Force acquires raw acquired from Martin Rutherford From Theoban fame. So you get and now you have this multi-shot platform. That is a tank You know, obviously a great reputation for a long long time What changed when you took that on in terms of there's a lot of talk out there about you know, I need a I need a pre Air Force raw and and I think people have a misconception about what may have or may have not changed When you guys acquired raw Well, let's say I heard raw excuse me when we acquired raw at first nothing changed and slowly We started Bringing components in house that we started we and we started off with the the more complex Turned components the valving the valve parts and things like that We started bringing those in house because we had equipment that was better suited for it than he did so We would build we kept building more and more of the parts and then we would ship him the parts and he would assemble the guns So Martin was still literally hands-on involved. Yeah in every gun that went out the door Yeah, for like the first year or two We just kept building more and more of the parts But he everything went to him to put together and my understanding is he still today has a hand and pretty much every Gun that goes out the door. Yeah. Yeah, so For all of you out there that are naysayers. He's still very much involved and and that is the thing so Shut your mouth So, you know when we obviously with raw, you know, there was I remember that in 2018 There was originally like you had some theoben guns there And I know, you know, you've gone a different direction with like the chassis that obviously wasn't really a thing When the acquisition happened Later and and a couple of years ago. I think it was 2020 maybe you tease this little rinky-dink raw and you know, yes, yes the micro. Yes, and you know, we haven't Well, I can't the micro gun. I've seen it. Is that okay? We had it at the shot show. I know, but can I tell them it's real? Sure So like they've got this micro raw that Vaporware Rugpole vapor where whole thing. I've seen it. I've shot it. It's real. Yeah, just We have a hundred and twenty five receivers waiting to be put together The problem has slowed us down or slowed us down on the micro is that we can't keep up with HMX 1000x production, you know, it's it's one of those things that that that as we ramp up Availability on raws We don't do anything that might integrate the quality level and It's it's It's agonizing for us because we're a production company and we want to get the volume out We want to get guns out to everybody that wants one But we can only get them out so fast because they still all go through through Martin sure and We are slowly ramping the numbers up slowly Increasing the quantity quantity levels We are transitioning from just sending him parts to now. We're starting, you know After he has showed us what he wants now. We're doing sub assemblies, you know So now we're putting together triggers right now. We're putting together regulators But they still all go back to Tennessee for that final assembly the final assembly and the final checkout Yeah, to make sure everything is the way it's supposed to be so slowly our numbers go up But it's still gonna take a while before we get into You know really What I call Good good numbers sure and these things take time. I mean, it's not and they can't just turn it on like a faucet It doesn't work that way it we're trying to Turn a almost custom hand-built gun into a production hand-built gun and Without compromising any of the compromising any capabilities without compromising any of the performance characteristics or anything like that and That is not Simple You know, it's it's it's not simple to build because nobody else builds Airguns like that in the United States, you know as a productive right there boutique things. Yeah Yeah, every there's just a couple boutique guys out there And we're trying to take boutique mainstream. Yep. So so we got in a glimpse into You know what's coming for raw But on the Air Force side of things, you know, I'm assuming 800 foot-pounds is not where the bar is gonna be set for long So I'm assuming you guys are already either developing or you know, you don't have to confirm or deny But I'm assuming there might be some pushing of that that power boundary, but but is that all we're gonna see? know that the The power The power where we're at is probably not the power levels where we will always stay If we're gonna do a high-powered gun it needs to have a use it needs to have a purpose sure But right now we're switching but we're switching gears back to a project. We started back before big board. Okay, so The arrow guns, you know that are out on the marketplace now We actually had developed an arrow gun before any of those ever hit the market. Okay but we Layed the arrow gun project to the side because we thought the big bore Potential was a lot higher. I think you made the right call for what it's worth But but so you're coming back to an arrow coming back to arrow Which is very cool, you know, and we're gonna do the same thing to the arrow guns that we did to the Texan We will start out with a model And then we will diversify the model You know, and we will come out with a basic Rifle that is comparable to the arrow shooting rifle that's comparable to the other guns that are out there now But as we Kind of differentiate the market It's like our first model is going to be called the Talon bolt Okay, Talon bolt will be shortly followed by the Talon microbowl Okay, so like I'm assuming like a Talon P-sized gun and we actually had Mockups of those at the shot. Yeah of the yep full-size gun and the micro but they didn't have a name at shot Show didn't have a name at the shot shot. All right, so those are going to be finalized the The bet the bolt the full-size bolt should be ready here in the next couple of months awesome Okay, you know, and then we will follow up with the micro bolt You know and we have Another version of the gun going in the other direction that will we probably be following shortly after that Okay Interesting and then there will be fishing versions of the gun sweet awesome Okay, we'll use a proper fiberglass fishing arrow and we'll shoot it at a proper speed so you don't shoot through the fish Yeah, right So when you know so when it comes out it'll work well You know and we'll have the capability these guns are be power adjustable, okay? Well, that's interesting. So if you want to hunt moose you can do that You can take a switch a ring lock cap out and goes and go Fishing and it'll be fishing and because of what it's based on it's going to be a really lightweight platform Yes, which is not atypical, but it's it's not super common either in the arrow gun world I mean a lot of those guns are quite large. Well, the full-size guns going to be five and a half pounds Oh, that's sweet the micro gun will be lighter than that nice. Okay, so very cool So so you've given us some nice morsels here to chew on things to come Some of which I'm very excited about What else can you tell the folks that that's going on at Air Force and raw in terms of development? well, one of the things that I mentioned as far as raw is that we're we're Having trouble getting up to full production numbers like we'd like to get at you know the raw shipping You know on a regular basis at this point We're exporting guns at this point But there's Still other models that we can't get to until we kind of get up to speed with all the demand for the existing HMX 1000 so for the folks that maybe don't know or just came sure the folks that maybe came to raw Once you guys took over like there was a bench model, which was a BM with a bottle BM 500 There's a TM 1000, which is target model 500 very simple naming strategy here There's a standard HM 1000 series and then there's the HMX which is what you guys are producing now Yeah, so so what if I'm reading you right what you're saying is that you're gonna get to some of these other models or something new Well the other models Basically the other models, okay, you know it's basically you know We're gonna we want to get caught up because of all the interest in hundred yard ventrest You know we can't keep up with HM 1000 X's sure You know, but there's still a demand for it for this the more compact Lower powered gun, you know, especially in Europe. They want HMs, which is the standard hunting model now Martin's made a Reputation for the the target models in bench rest. Yeah, and he calls him They when we bought the company he had target models which tended to be field target guns And he had bench models which were bench rest guns We have dropped the BM Because the only difference was the what he lasered on the side of the receiver Okay, and the stock was different and a different type of stock. So but the basic action was the same Yeah So now we have a TM and a TM can be a bench rest gun or it can be a field target gun Or it can be Any of the any other shooting discipline we could we feel we need to move into you know, we're starting to Look a little bit at 10 meter interesting, okay, you know, we've had some interest. We've had some requests from some of the Major shooting associations, you know, like why can't we have a US made 10 meter gun? Yeah, I mean you're talking about a proper US made Olympic level Yeah, precision gun not a sport or not a sport or gun. Wow precision model. Okay, that's you know, and Because of the the refinements in the trigger, you know that in the from Martin's improvements through the years and The accuracy level You know we can build or we have what we need as a starting point to build a 10 meter gun just like the Benchrest and field target versions, okay So that's something we're As we get to it we're looking at it You know a lot of the difference in the in target guns is is furniture Yeah, the basic action and then the power ranges are very similar. So You know what we we're trying to do what we wanted we want to do because there's not a lot of volume in Target guns right and in order to make it that thing viable from a production standpoint We have to satisfy a lot of sub markets Yeah, and you have to have something kind of to your point that does multiple things out of kind of one In this case one action that can do multiple things Maybe with some minor tweaks and even if you can do it with one action and stock or maybe one action in two stocks Or three stocks, you know that that opens up a lot of possibilities and a lot of it ends up boiling Boiling down to the stock configuration sure, you know and There again, we're looking at some more advanced manufacturing techniques in order to come up with Variations in stock configurations that we can do in relatively small quantities At a and be able to sell them at a reasonable price sure Because there are not it's not a large volume market right so we have to find a way to make small volume of parts efficiently So that we can still sell them at a competitive price to the target the target shooting crowd sure depending on which Discipline there want to go after yeah, there's definitely a demand I mean I see a demand for American made products in that space for sure and it's one thing That's really at least to my knowledge especially for the 10 meter crowd never been Attempted really there's really never been anything available As far as a capability ability to build a gun at that level in the United States before it's it's like you could purely Dominate about the Germans and the Austrians. Yeah, it's so that's an interesting Did not see that one coming Did not see that one coming folks so that that's that's actually really cool I'm excited to see what comes of that. Wow, okay, so John before we wrap up I do have a question that you kind of started talking about and then We got into the history of the company or you know and how how the guns have developed So whatever happened to this full-auto BB gun thing the full-auto BB gun thing When when I brought the the Single-shot gun home to kind of start studying it and deciding how I was going to approach it. I actually set the Prototyping thing elements and stuff like that to the side and I haven't picked it up since Now I've seen some of this stuff folks John is an avid avid airgun collector This man has a lot of cool stuff If you remember the the videos we filmed with Tom Gaylord, that's John's man cave And if you look closely some of the guns on the wall are very very unique full-auto BB guns yep Since I didn't get around to building full-auto air guns yet. I've been collecting them. You bought everything you buying everything I could find as a as a reference piece With the idea that possibly someday we may pick it back up again and I love another run at it I love that so it's not dead. Nothing's ever dead. It's not dead, you know, I don't know, you know Airgun digest there's been what three of them now magazines the original airgun digest you know that Just go on did the first one. Okay, and then Robert Beaman did the second. Yeah, I believe yeah Well in that very first edition air gun digest just go on had a full-auto pellet gun Did he did an article on that pellet gun is in that man cave up on that wall? I don't know if you ever noticed it or not But that there are some his what what I would call from an air gun perspective historical pieces in there, okay? Though there's a lot of that. I mean this this man's got McClash ins like you've got all the toys. Yeah, we actually bought out The Feltman the original felt yeah arcade gun company. That's so cool You know that that we're talking about like the the thing at the carnival Yeah, yeah, yeah And it's been sitting It's been sitting up on pallets because we don't have time to mess with it But one day maybe one day, you know, we'll break it out. May I hope so man. That'll be a lot of fun Well, John, thank you for sitting down with us. I appreciate it Thank you for not only the history but also some insight into what is in the future for Air Force and RAW It's awesome to see an American manufacturer thriving and and looking to push forward as well So hopefully you all have enjoyed it today. If you did throw us a like down below Don't forget to comment. Let me know what you're excited about So we know what to review when these guys come out with it and don't forget to subscribe as always We appreciate it a ton and we will see you next time. Oh I have something else I want to say Hit me Since this is going on YouTube. Yes, people make all those little comments down at the bottom. Yeah We've been accused a lot of times of that we don't care about what people want and And that we we go off on our own Directions and and we don't listen to what that what customers real are really after yeah, and that's really not the case You know the thing is that? You know through the years we've been a Very small company and there's only so much we can do with the resources we have Well the situations are a little better now. There's more things we can do. There's more things. We want to be able to do so We are really interested in Comments that you make after this video Because I'm going to be looking very closely to see you know What do you want? You know that's yeah What you know it doesn't it doesn't do us any good to build what we like because we're not buying them You know depends on what the public wants that's a very good point So you all heard it from the horse's mouth so to speak you need to comment down below and let Air Force know And raw know respectively obviously one company but two brands what you're interested in seeing did anything John say tickle You're fancy. Are you going to be buying an arogun? Do you waiting for a 10 meter raw? What do you want to see do you want them to bring back the full auto BB gun concept? Whatever you guys want let us know down in the comments It goes to show that these manufacturers do really read this stuff They are paying attention and they want to know what you guys think I want to know what you guys think it helps everybody So do your job comment down below. It's all we ask